Powder scales for ELR (overview)
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Very well done from my view point. I reload for hunting and use the RCBS powder charger/thrower and shoot .5" groups as long as I do my part. Your are 200% correct that there are a number of other factors that play a role in accuracy and probably larger role in how tight your groups are. Examples include quality of barrel, action, bedding, brass, neck tension, lead etc. Yes, you are on the mark that there are tons of other factors aside from the difference of a few tenths of grains of powder.
Thanks Jeff, Cheers
Very timely. I’m just getting into loading and have been agonizing over this aspect. Thank you for your work.
Thanks James, Cheers
Very much appreciated information. It’s amazing the performance I’ve been able to achieve with a beam scale all these years so I’m totally on board with your opinion. There’s nothing like experience to help make achieving your goals much simpler and you clearly have experience. Thanks man!!!
Thanks Johnny, Cheers
I was amazed at how the straw trick worked with the powder thrower, quite silly really. Thanks for the video guys, cheers!
Yep, lol, Cheers
Great discussion! It's how deep you are willing to go down that rabbit hole! Love your work, cheers!
Thanks Bob, cheers
Excellent Info. I have a RCBS Chargemaster Lite which has 0.1gr Accuracy and when I hit a node in the powder charge its usually within about 0.8gr.. I charge my match loads to the middle of the note and have allowance +/- 0.2gr or so.. which is plenty of room for error in the system. Like you mentioned, seating depth/neck tension/concentricity are more factors than charge weight.
Thanks Tim, Cheers
Thanks Mark. Makes total sense for what you do. In the past, my focus was on 23.1 gr loads and 40+- gr loads, so it made a bit more sense to be precise.
Agreed, Cheers
Couldnt agree more! Certainly in the UK where the wind tends to be gusty the long distance ranges tend to be in valleys and the weather conditions can change in minutes obsessing over 0.1grain seems a little futile.
Thanks Marlin, Cheers
I own the 1500 and AutoTrickler and your points are right on. As charge weight increases, the perfection level of the powder throw becomes less important. I figure for about 50-60gr on down, the level of precision becomes more important. Ive honestly found neck tension, case prep, etc to be far more important than a perfect charge.
Thanks Corwin, Cheers
Spot on about charge accuracy. I started reloading in earnest about 6 years ago and used a balance beam scale that I inherited that's probably 60 years old. Very accurate and I was able to get powder charges within a 1/10th of a grain for my 223. For that small cartridge it was necessary to keep the percentage of error as low as possible while I was learning the finer points of reloading. I kept consistency in the things I could control and experimented with the rest. Now I also have a 25-06 that uses twice the powder charge and I use a digital scale to verify my charge weight after my Hornady Auto Charge Pro has thrown a charge. Both of my 223s and my 25-06 are used for varmint control on rock chucks out to 600 yards so I need as much consistency and accuracy as I can get. I'm not so anal about the powder charges all being identical but I am paying very close attention to seating depth and neck tension. I also anneal my brass after every shot to ensure consistency. All winter I reload, after bench testing to prove my load data, about 2400 rounds to get ready for varmint season. The farmers appreciate the marksmanship.
Thanks man. Cheers and all our best.
Thanks again Mark for another very informative and well-produced video. Now we get into a very opinionated subject of our hobby(sport). When I first started, it used a triple-beam lab-scale and I thought it was the best I could do, sitting there obsessing over each granule. Then a mid-level digital scale and then to a chargemaster. Now I use a Harrells Precision powder thrower. They make a pistol type, a rifle one, and a portable BR one; I love all three. I share your philosophy on "how accurate do I need" and these powder throwers are more than adequate, I think. They are fast and fussless😁
Thanks Jeff, glad you liked, Cheers
i had a charge master lite for a couple years. it was temperamental, in that it would drift from zero over time. usually within 10-15m, and it was hard to tell, sometimes, when it had drifted. yes, warmed up for over an hour, yes, calibrated every time using it, and yes, no florescent lights... tube or CF bulbs, in the room.
got an autotrickler v3. used the scale on its own for a couple months, while waiting for the trickler and was blown away by the steady repeatability of the scale. no longer did i have to worry about where scale drift entered the process. compared it to my old frankford arsenal battery pocket scale and they were as close as their resolutions allowed when calibrated with the same weight. if the FA scale had the ability to disable the sleep feature, it would be awesome.
the primary reason i shelled out for an AT v3 is i am not an expert level shooter or reloader. if i can take out any variable, such as charge weight, then i have a better idea of what needs improvement (spoiler alert, everything else!) to make me a better shooter.
also, thank you for what you do for the community.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Yes, mine drifts also. Going to open it up to see if I can improve the unit. A better 12 volt power supply will be a start.
I've had my lite for a few yrs now, doesn't get turned off, calibrate each time I use it and have been lucky enough to have had no problems with it. I've always been in the habit of rechecking some of my loads, so I tend to at end recalibrate and check random cases and so far no problems.
I started reloading hunting loads in 1982, on a beam scale and used it until 2020, then I started target shooting & bench rest and
purchased an electronic scale/dispense unit, it's not a top-shelf model, accurate enough for what I shoot, nice video !!
Thanks Man, Cheers
I completely agree with your view on this. At the same time I ordered a V4 for the speed and partly just because I want one
Thanks Taylor, Cheers
Great little vid guys. I’ve also considered that with the larger projectiles ie: 300gr how much of a difference is 0.1 or 0.2gr of powder really going to make? Smaller projectiles yes you will need to be concerned.
Thanks Ben, Cheers
I use a chargemaster lite, no problem getting sub 10fps sd's. The V3 auto trickler is roughly 3x as fast at dispensing a charge compared to the chargemaster lite, but you could buy 3-4 chargemaster lites for the same money as the auto trickler.
And the Chargmaster doesn't need an app to run.
Thanks Bruce, Cheers
Without doubt the go to channel. 👌
Cheers Steve
Good timing Mark. My thoughts exactly. I just sent my Charge Master back to RCBS for repair, and past that I'm thinking about a new powder measure, but don't want to get bogged down too much in the nerd stuff - a little maybe, but not over the top. I'd rather be out shooting which is getting hard enough to do. I would like to find a spotter as good as Sam, but I'm a cranky old man at my age. Ive got a Bichon but hes not worth a damn at a spotting. 🔭
Thanks Man, Cheers
Man them super precise scales drive me freakin crazy because they're so sensitive that unless they're set up right all they do is float nonstop... My buddy has one of those Auto Trickler V3 setups and they're extremely nice and pretty fast but I'm able to get consistent numbers and great groups just using a scoop and a hand trickler so it's pretty hard for me to justify buying one. I've been wanting to pick up one of those charge masters just to make things a little faster then me having to hand weigh every charge ... I think you hit the nail on the head with this one as always good stuff and keepem coming brother!!!
Thanks Dan, cheers
Daniel get the better stuff saves time which is very valuable these days.
Awesome real sensible scientific comment…, Thanks boss 👌🏻
Thanks Ivan
Excellent video as usual!
Thanks
Keep'em coming!
Cheers
MORE GREAT INFO for the newbie reloader. ( if one can find the components here in Texas). When I used to reload I had a balance beam medical scale. It would actually weigh a piece of human hair 1/2" long. Every case was finished hand loaded down to one piece of IMR 4350. Then the charge was packed with pieces of cotton ball to secure the would burn at the most constant rate and repetitively? I have had chronographed five consecutive rounds within 8 fps. Those were some fantastic loads.
Cheers Tim, thanks
Good words Mark. I shoot a good bit of .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. I use a digital scale with +/- .02 grain resolution. I still use the 'put most of it in and use an old school powder trickler to get the charge' method. Slow way to go but it works fairly well. I've always believed .1 grain resolution is too coarse thus never picked up one of those chargemaster units. Thanks!!
Cheers Man, thanks
I have a RCBS 505 beam scale I’ve been using for years. it’s slow yes but my groups are good. Just shot a .187” 5 shot at 100 yards yesterday and I’ve got a few.5” (.55) 300 yard groups as well. Not sure on the accuracy of a beam scale compared to a charge master or lab scale tho so I’m not sure if upgrading would make that huge of a difference? Have you used the beam scale to do ELR and if so have you seen any huge improvements over the beam using the charge master or lab scale ? Just wondering and thanks for all the information
All as said in the video, Cheers
I have been a scale technician for 30+ years and your beam scale will weigh as good if not better than the digital scales as long as you look after them if the pivots and bearings are clean and sharp your beam scale will do everything you need acutely just slower as you stated cheers Yogi Australia 🇦🇺🤙🤙
Good presentation mark, Not found a need for the auto powder dispenser just yet with the volume I load, however I did upgrade to a RCBS powder scale as I found the Lee scale very finicky and poor quality. I like the throw a charge and trickle up method, seems to work for me and I’ll stick with that. Cheers M&S Take care.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Nice video and advice. I have a .375 Ruger (it's the only CF rifle I own) that runs between 76-82 grains of powder per load. The powder measure is a Redding match grade long range. I'd like to be able to shoot it out to 600 yards to practice for real world use. The maximum range I would consider shooting a moose is 400 yards. I figure if I can hit a 600 yard target consistently then a once in a lifetime hunt at 400 will be doable.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Thanks for the FACTS. Keep it real.
Thanks Walter, cheers
Mark: "It's simple. Math words, words, math, more words I don't fully understand , math plus something, something= accuracy "
Me 😬
I love this channel!
I'm learning things that I never knew that I even needed to know and I'm here for it baby!
Cheers Thom
Thanks, great information
Cheers
Great video and great information
Thanks Man
Thanks for the video.
Cheers
I just use a good balance beam scales , reloading just for hunting .. can't see the sense in a expensive one for what I do ... Great video Mark.
Cheers Shane
Thanks Mark!
Cheers
I'm a stickler for precise charge weights. I have a Chargemaster 1500 and I did the mod to it to improve its accuracy, but I still under charge by .1 of a grain, transfer to the balance scale and trickle up. My charge weight deviation is probably too small to measure with even your high end scale. I just like to remove that variable from the equation since there are others to work on.
Cheers Man, thanks
Recently I got into shooting PRS. I started out with a lyman 1200 trickler. Couldn't have florescent lights, cell phone with wi-fi/mobile data on, etc etc etc. I'm a buy once cry once kind of person so I opted for the V3. Huge difference BUT where I saw the most difference was when I worried more about neck tension. No, I don't turn my cases. (For PRS that's a bit overkill really) I tried just the resizing ball, then switched to bushings then finally to a neck mandrel die. The mandrel die is the solution. (In my opinion) I don't sort cases, bullets, etc. (Again, talking PRS) With .308 using IMI match brass (And mind you, this is through a M1A) I got my sd down to 7 with a es of 16. For a gas gun that's pretty fair. Recently I switched to 6mm ARC in a AR and haven't started handloading for that yet so it will be interesting to see how that goes. (The factory ammo is pretty darn good) I believe consistent neck tension is just as, if not more, important than getting down to the nearest .0xxxxx powder charge. I hear guys talking about picking out/adding to charges with single grains of powder with tweezers and all I can think is man, if your load is that touchy then something is wrong.
Cheers
Great video, mark
Cheers Larry
As always great job 👍💯
Cheers
Pretty spot on.
Cheers
Thank you.
Cheers
I understand the importance of accuracy in powder scales . Does the humidity play an importance when loading the powder in a cartridge during the process before the bullet is pressed in to seal it .
Can do, but we have not tested, we keep our powder dry!! Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork that was quick !…. I was rewriting my comment . thanks for the quick response.
don't go into drying powder, you will increase the burn rate, and cause extreme pressure variations, leaving powder out to maybe gain humidity can also lead to variation, keep canisters sealed tight stored cool dry place, or controlled space, we use to dry powder to increase velocity when we shot 1000yd br better know what your doing and able to test, duplex loads are dangerous also running a faster burning powder in the bottom of the case with slower on top to increase flame, people use to do it on the 30-378 but with good actions, and with accidents blowing bolts out of rifles, don't have to be done today with the good powder selections we have today
Yes it does affect it. There’s other videos out there
great video
Cheers Amir
Well said! Some of these expensive scale/dispenser combos are marketed at shooters with the idea that you are going to see night and day differences downrange which just is not reality. There are literally as you said 20, 30...50 variables all affecting group size. Add in long range, wind alone will change things more than .1 grain of powder. Hell do most shooters even know if they are getting 100% ignition of powder before the bullet leaves the barrel?
Agreed, thanks Jory, Cheers
Great video Mark!
As usual spot on with good practical advice.
Did my wife call to ask you to talk me out of the Prometheus?
Love the Mark and Sam song!!
Lol, Cheers Dave
Cheers!
Mark, you mentioned that you sped up your RCBS Chargemaster. I would love to know what you did to it. This has been the most frustrating part of using it for me as it takes forever to weigh a trickled load. This has been my biggest irk and point of frustration with this unit, so much that I quit using it within a month of purchase.
A McDonald's straw stuck in the dispensing tube about an inch or so helps metering out the powder. I dont think it is really any faster but it does help with the accuracy of the dispensed powder which means less dumping back in and starting over, if you do that sort of thing.
Do a search for changing the settings on your chargemaster, and follow the steps. Pretty easy, and is nice.
Videos on TH-cam, long time since I did that, but they would still be there, Cheers
Now if I could only get primers. 😎
I just started this as a hobby when everything shut down.
Lol, cheers
The AutoTrickler is for volume, accuracy and lessor charges, it’s fast and takes out the flaws in humans.
The A&D scales are also used for a variety of other handle loading consistency tasks such as projectile sorting etc.
Buy once cry once if you looking to for speed and repeatability.
Cheers
Save on scales stick with big rounds. That’s what I got out of this vid. Works for me. 👍
Lol, Cheers
I load .32 SWL handgun target loads usually only 1.5 grains. I use an electronic Jewelers scale that also measures in grains and is accurate to .001 of a grain. However this is just to verify that my Hornady powder thrower is doing it's job. Which it normally is with fine ball powders, I only need 1" accuracy at 25 metres. A range of 1.45 to 1.6 doesn't affect accuracy too much but higher or lower than that does. So I need at least .05 of a grain precision for match ammo where I weigh every throw. For practice ammo I just run them through the Lee 1000 progressive press where 2 inch groups are fine. I know there is more to accuracy then powder weight, for the projectiles, primers and brass that I use this charge weight is the most consistent in my gun with all other factors being the same. Fowling shots are also important I always get 2 or 3 flyers after cleaning my gun and then it settles down to 1" groups in a Ransom rest. I never shoot a match with a clean gun.
Thanks Mal, Cheers
Loading for match grade .32 SWL was exactly the reason I invented the Targetmaster Auto-trickler back in the 1980's. th-cam.com/video/1NNIC2Qn50U/w-d-xo.html
Good. Cheers.
Cheers
I bought an automatic electronic powder scale, and didn’t trust it until I’d thrown at least 200 charges. I checked every charges with a triple beam scale
Cheers
Would it actually matter if one shakes the cartridge before loading in such a way that the powder is lying in it the exact same way every time one pulls the trigger?
Depends...Cheers
I'm waitlisted for a v4 but you have me thinking hard about whether the juice is worth the squeeze...
All I can say I said, lol, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork looks like less gains to be had here (for me at least, as a PRS guy) than say, the AMP machine. As always, great review and perspective.
Good advice 🤠👍
Cheers
I have always said to the kernel, .04-.02 of a grain is all but impossible to shoot the difference. Way too many variables in reloading that will affect the loads for it to matter. Even at smaller scales. Benchrest guys shoot tiny .0xx groups with a powder thrower.
Yep, Cheers
Spot on ! 💯% agree ! 👍
cheers Jerry
Saving up for the match master
Awesome, Cheers
I use the chargemaster lite
to save time. And the beam scale to check if its honest.
Cheers Man, thanks
I can see the value in the higher end stuff for the smaller cases but for what I shoot, 45-80gr powder charges, I don't see much difference. If I want to get really serious I go back to the basics with a good beam scale.
Cheers Austin, thanks
Spot on mate you can’t go wrong with a good beam scale mate cheers Yogi 🇦🇺🤙🤙
Makes sense.
Im more concerned with a scale that will maintain zero and repeatability !
Some of these scales float like crazy and require constant re-zeroing.
The Dillon scale is a good example!
Thanks Man, Cheers
💡👍
Cheers
The V4 is a better unit then the V3.
Biggest reason I run a AutoTrickler is accuracy at speed. Easily throws 2208 to the kernel.
Cheers
Bigger, better, faster, sometimes you just have to stop a get the best out of what you're doing at the moment.
Agreed
I have the charge master and a balance beam so the charge master throws X and then i trickle on the balance beam
Cheers Man, thanks
While you have a point about small cartridges, What are the odds you are shooting 223 much past a grand? The wind is going to mean much much more than the charge difference.
I still want a "nice" scale, but only because my degree is chemistry and I have experience on A&D, Mettler toledo, etc.
The real market for the autotrickler I think, is short course benchrest. It doesn't take much powder to fill a 6ppc case. But considering the number of guys still using Harrell measures and spot checking on a scale, and shooting .050 groups, it makes me wonder if it would offer that much of an improvement for what it costs.
Cheers Matt, thanks
I can prove it I get great groups with my Tikka in 223 average is .6 at 100m just hand throwing powder a little slow and tedious a reason for going to an electronic powder dispenser not because it will improve group size.
Thanks Wayne
Once you go A&d with auto trickler you can never go back :)
Lol, cheers
RCBS Beam scale with a Target Master Trickler, inexpensive all the accuracy benefits of a beam, none of the messing around, interference and calibration issues of an electric.
Thanks Man, Cheers
As the inventer and manufacturer of the Targetmaster trickler I'm pleased it's giving good results for you. All Targetmasters are handmade by me and have now been sold to 33 different countries.
I was this " close to buying a charge Master because my progressive was throwing +- 0.4gr on a 7gr charge. But then I asked myself if I really gave a shit, and it turned out I did not.
Lol, Cheers
Hi. Can you let me know I can use this digital scale RSBS for shotgun powder? Thanks...
Yes, sure can