Great video. I actually do a similar thing as you. I use Titebond hide glue for joinery and tabletops of darker woods. Hot hide glue from granules for maple tabletops. PVA for laminations. Hide glue is great stuff. Very strong. I like how you can steam it and take the joint apart for repairs.
Thank you for the great advice and the insights into a professional woodworkers "ammunition" drawer 👍. Glue is very important and knowing the difference in drying time, colour and other properties mentioned here is not always as easy as reading the label on the back of the bottle. Your experience with different types of glue and results you have shared here are so valuable and I thank you for your time and effort making this video. Top video as always!!
If you use the "real" dried pearl form and mix it up before you use it, some of the "downsides" are alleviated. It's suddenly SUPER cheap, has an infinite shelf life (seriously), it dries SUPER quick, maybe a bit too quick if you don't heat your pieces/workshop... so this is a plus and a downside at the same time. But with today's heat guns etc. it's manageable. Also it dries to an even tougher, tighter bond. It also has an amazing ability when you do panel glue ups... you don't have to clamp them like a mad man. Mostly the weight of the wood will suffice, because the bone glue will "pull" on the pieces if it dries and pull them together. Bone glue is really the best glue to use for a hobbyist I think. Sure on a job... time pressure, ease of use etc. modern stuff is the way go to. If you have the time and respect for your own pieces: Use hide/bone glue.
Good information. As a luthier I use hide glue for everything but it started as just the visible parts of the build until one build in particular. It’s the one glue where I’ve had zero reactions with wood types and dyes. A good example of a fail was gluing black purfling on a redwood topped classical with Titebond II. I got a fuzzy grayish perimeter on the edge of the top. I eventually liked the look but it was clearly a fail. After some experimenting post build I found that redwood reacts negatively to Titebond and wasn’t dye bleeding as I initially suspected. Hide all the way from then on.
Thank you for confirming what I already "knew" and giving me some new, valuable, info. As a wannabe luthier and a scientist every little bit helps. Keep up the good work🎶
Try hot hide glue for instant, no-clamp bonding. , especially useful in veneer applications and making musical instruments. Hide glue was king in the 19th century.
Changed over to Hide glue about six weeks ago. I haven't done enough glue ups yet to make comment, but watching other channels, everyone says good things. Thanks Paul
If you don't have a good brush for it yet, UniPro's "touchup" brushes, with bristles cut to about 10-12mm is my absolute favourite :D www.bunnings.com.au/uni-pro-10mm-3-piece-touch-up-set_p1670217
Thanks for the explanation. I must try hide glue sometime. Once I glue something up, I usually leave it overnight anyway. I am gradually using more white PVA rather than Titebond. Its better.
One small issue - regular hide glue - not the Titebond liquid hide glue does dry pretty quickly but can be loosened with heat or water (water thins it) Regular old hide glue can be treated almost as dry in about an hour in some applications. I am not familiar with Liquid hide glue but give Thomas Johnson a look - he regularly repairs and restores laminates and furniture joints with it. With a good clamping, hide glue will set pretty quickly - at least with laminates.
I have never used Hide glue as a woodworker for over 30 years. I have refurbished many older pieces that were glued together with Hide glue. In most cases, the glue had failed. Over time the glue deteriorates. But, yes. I can see the advantage of using it.
Nice video! The demo of the finish really seals it (hah!), eh? Does the same thing happen with a water based finish? It does for the PVAs - not sure about hide glue?
So far I've only made inserts for myself! I used to get the excellent Folded Space inserts, but they are a little pricey and they don't have inserts for everything. Some games aren't worth $25+ for an insert if its 1/2 the price of the game! I've made inserts for Scythe, War of the Ring, Star Wars Rebellion, Dune Imperium (and it fits Ix), Great Western Trail (v1 + expansion), Calico and Descent 2E. I worked out the price of a couple of tools (FoamWerks cutters and straight edge) and materials, after 3 inserts I "broke even" vs buying from FoldedSpace
Hey mate, ever used hide glue on oily woods like spotted gum? Or dense woods like Ironbark? I find that PVAs don't penetrate enough unless I wipe with acetone or metho and I wonder do you think hide glue would work better? p.s. I enjoy the calm way you present information. It's very refreshing.
Redgum and jarrah, yes, but nothing harder than that. I sought out a friend in the US (luthier) who uses a lot of hot hide glue about the oily wood question. His answer was "Hide glues don't rely on penetration so they are much less affected by oily or resinous woods. I generally don't worry about it when I use hide glue unless it is a _super_ critical joint" So it should work better, but an acetone wipe wouldn't hurt it at all if you were concerned.
Thanks mate! Taking the time to actually seek out an answer for me proves you're a good'n. I might have to knock up a few little boxes and try it out. Thanks again!
Thanks for that. The only issue I have is the shelf life. I'd use it in the twelve months, but I'm a bit sceptical of how old it is before I get to purchase it. I spoke to a Titebond stockist and they didn't want to stock it or even order some in because of the shelf life issue. Who do you buy yours through.
Timbecon and Carbatec stock it, I've purchased it from both in the past. Turns out the listed shelf life is 24 months - the same for Titebonds PVAs! - so 12 months should be fine buying from the bigger stores which tend to have more turn over. They've always come with a production date sticker on them to give some assurances.
At what temperature and humidity should you start getting worried about hide glue's integrity? It can get really hot and humid on the Aussie east coast, and you know our buildings have the thermal properties of tents.
I haven't tested it, but IIRC "regular" hide glue needs to be heated to 140-160f/60-71c to melt properly, after being dissolved in water. PopWood did some tests, they needed 6 minutes with a hair dryer directly applied to the joint to weaken it, so I'm not sure there is any real world danger of it weakening www.popularwoodworking.com/article/hide-glue-in-liquid-form/
Hide glue doesn't weaken much with atmospheric humidity, what tends to cause failures is when the ambient RH falls to the 10-15% range. Then the glue becomes brittle, and you know the rest...
My 12-18 month old bottle of Titebond hide glue passes the “spiderweb test” but recently I’ve had glued joints fail due to re-absorption of moisture from the atmosphere. The glue had been hard for weeks but one humid day it softened and returned to a tacky state. The item was in a closed room in a shed; not sitting outside or on a deck. Is this a sign of the glue being too old or does this product simply not cope with SE QLD humidity?
That might be a question best directed to Titebond or the retailer as I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to answer! Moisture from the air shouldn't be anywhere near enough to reverse a hard joint unless the temperatures were >60c - sometimes to get enough moisture into a joint to reverse, people need to drill holes and inject water. Other use irons on the highest temperature/steam settings just to slightly loosen it up. No interaction with vinegar or other chemicals that could have interrupted the bond?
No chemicals; I had removed the traces of old glue just using hot water, toothbrush and rags. Normally I don’t have anything lying around for too long but due to work commitments the item has stayed with me for weeks waiting for me to finish it off. I also found that glue residue on a plastic lid had also re-softened to the point I probably could have used it on a job… I guess I must have a dodgy batch 🙁
It sure sounds like it, yeah! Definitely something has contaminated it in the bottle. Old Brown Glue is supposed to be a bit more like traditional HHG, has a bit more strength and I think bit higher temperature tolerance. That might be worth a s hot? Chris Vesper is the only importer in Australia AFAIK vespertools.com.au/old-brown-glue/
@Fixit Fingers As far as I know, Titebonds product is made with animal hide, yes. Or more specifically, I think it is likely made from gelatin left over from other industries like medicine, but still not vegan. Edit: It looks like this product was actually an April Fools by Woodworkers Journal that... they posted on the 3rd of April 2018. Original comment: "There was once a product called "Dr. Jekyll's Hyde Glue" which was meant to be purely synthetic/vegan, but I haven't been able to track down too much info for it."
The argument also extends to guitar builders. Many modern luthiers won't use the old hide glue but mostly use Titebond original for two big reasons; When a guitar is over 40 years old the hide glue can begin to fail and necks and bridges, tops begin to separate. It crystallizes and cracks, and it can even decay or oxidize as it is an animal protein. At any stage repair guys find it extremely difficult to de-bond. Heat is the tool to soften it but when it's old it either lets go on its own, or it won't melt. PVA will de-bond with heat more easily making repairs less destructive, and it won't decay, oxidize or crystallize the way Hide glue does. Others do use hide glue simply because it's a tradition.
Never had a problem using a Wet rag cleaning any glue as I use a really wet rag. Old timey craftsman never had the problem either. It seems only stressed out TH-camrs do and then blame the glues instead of themselves. I always laugh at this myth. I am not having a pop at you, I just kind of feel sad for those who panic for no real reason. Honestly, give it a try, have a look at Steve Hay, I am sure you know him.
Great video. I actually do a similar thing as you. I use Titebond hide glue for joinery and tabletops of darker woods. Hot hide glue from granules for maple tabletops. PVA for laminations. Hide glue is great stuff. Very strong. I like how you can steam it and take the joint apart for repairs.
Titebond will come apart with heat, no water or steam needed.
I’ve been annoyed by the PVA problem with finish like you described. I am convinced. Switching to hide glue.
Thank you for the great advice and the insights into a professional woodworkers "ammunition" drawer 👍.
Glue is very important and knowing the difference in drying time, colour and other properties mentioned here is not always as easy as reading the label on the back of the bottle.
Your experience with different types of glue and results you have shared here are so valuable and I thank you for your time and effort making this video.
Top video as always!!
If you use the "real" dried pearl form and mix it up before you use it, some of the "downsides" are alleviated. It's suddenly SUPER cheap, has an infinite shelf life (seriously), it dries SUPER quick, maybe a bit too quick if you don't heat your pieces/workshop... so this is a plus and a downside at the same time. But with today's heat guns etc. it's manageable. Also it dries to an even tougher, tighter bond. It also has an amazing ability when you do panel glue ups... you don't have to clamp them like a mad man. Mostly the weight of the wood will suffice, because the bone glue will "pull" on the pieces if it dries and pull them together. Bone glue is really the best glue to use for a hobbyist I think. Sure on a job... time pressure, ease of use etc. modern stuff is the way go to. If you have the time and respect for your own pieces: Use hide/bone glue.
Good information. As a luthier I use hide glue for everything but it started as just the visible parts of the build until one build in particular. It’s the one glue where I’ve had zero reactions with wood types and dyes. A good example of a fail was gluing black purfling on a redwood topped classical with Titebond II. I got a fuzzy grayish perimeter on the edge of the top. I eventually liked the look but it was clearly a fail. After some experimenting post build I found that redwood reacts negatively to Titebond and wasn’t dye bleeding as I initially suspected. Hide all the way from then on.
Thank you for confirming what I already "knew"
and giving me some new, valuable, info.
As a wannabe luthier and a scientist every little bit helps.
Keep up the good work🎶
Try hot hide glue for instant, no-clamp bonding. , especially useful in veneer applications and making musical instruments. Hide glue was king in the 19th century.
Changed over to Hide glue about six weeks ago. I haven't done enough glue ups yet to make comment, but watching other channels, everyone says good things. Thanks Paul
If you don't have a good brush for it yet, UniPro's "touchup" brushes, with bristles cut to about 10-12mm is my absolute favourite :D www.bunnings.com.au/uni-pro-10mm-3-piece-touch-up-set_p1670217
according to years of experience, I never saw any glue as good as hot hide glue, liquide hide glue in the second level
The number of pieces I’ve wrecked from spreading pva around 🤦♂️
Thanks for the explanation. I must try hide glue sometime. Once I glue something up, I usually leave it overnight anyway. I am gradually using more white PVA rather than Titebond. Its better.
One small issue - regular hide glue - not the Titebond liquid hide glue does dry pretty quickly but can be loosened with heat or water (water thins it) Regular old hide glue can be treated almost as dry in about an hour in some applications. I am not familiar with Liquid hide glue but give Thomas Johnson a look - he regularly repairs and restores laminates and furniture joints with it. With a good clamping, hide glue will set pretty quickly - at least with laminates.
This was very educational, thank you
I like that I can reset a joint by heating it too.
Great video. Hide Glue is king. Time tested for thousands of years and fully reversible.
I have never used Hide glue as a woodworker for over 30 years. I have refurbished many older pieces that were glued together with Hide glue. In most cases, the glue had failed. Over time the glue deteriorates. But, yes. I can see the advantage of using it.
Seems to be why many prefer it. Better for the glue to deteriorate than for it to be strong and cause a crack or split somewhere else.
Nice video! The demo of the finish really seals it (hah!), eh? Does the same thing happen with a water based finish? It does for the PVAs - not sure about hide glue?
Ayyy I also make inserts, my last one was for dead of winter do play board games often or just make them for others
So far I've only made inserts for myself! I used to get the excellent Folded Space inserts, but they are a little pricey and they don't have inserts for everything. Some games aren't worth $25+ for an insert if its 1/2 the price of the game!
I've made inserts for Scythe, War of the Ring, Star Wars Rebellion, Dune Imperium (and it fits Ix), Great Western Trail (v1 + expansion), Calico and Descent 2E. I worked out the price of a couple of tools (FoamWerks cutters and straight edge) and materials, after 3 inserts I "broke even" vs buying from FoldedSpace
Hey mate, ever used hide glue on oily woods like spotted gum? Or dense woods like Ironbark? I find that PVAs don't penetrate enough unless I wipe with acetone or metho and I wonder do you think hide glue would work better?
p.s. I enjoy the calm way you present information. It's very refreshing.
Redgum and jarrah, yes, but nothing harder than that. I sought out a friend in the US (luthier) who uses a lot of hot hide glue about the oily wood question. His answer was
"Hide glues don't rely on penetration so they are much less affected by oily or resinous woods. I generally don't worry about it when I use hide glue unless it is a _super_ critical joint"
So it should work better, but an acetone wipe wouldn't hurt it at all if you were concerned.
Thanks mate! Taking the time to actually seek out an answer for me proves you're a good'n.
I might have to knock up a few little boxes and try it out. Thanks again!
Thanks for that. The only issue I have is the shelf life. I'd use it in the twelve months, but I'm a bit sceptical of how old it is before I get to purchase it. I spoke to a Titebond stockist and they didn't want to stock it or even order some in because of the shelf life issue. Who do you buy yours through.
Timbecon and Carbatec stock it, I've purchased it from both in the past. Turns out the listed shelf life is 24 months - the same for Titebonds PVAs! - so 12 months should be fine buying from the bigger stores which tend to have more turn over. They've always come with a production date sticker on them to give some assurances.
You can always get hide crystals and mix your own. Crystals stay good forever! Lot more effort though 😁
At what temperature and humidity should you start getting worried about hide glue's integrity? It can get really hot and humid on the Aussie east coast, and you know our buildings have the thermal properties of tents.
I haven't tested it, but IIRC "regular" hide glue needs to be heated to 140-160f/60-71c to melt properly, after being dissolved in water.
PopWood did some tests, they needed 6 minutes with a hair dryer directly applied to the joint to weaken it, so I'm not sure there is any real world danger of it weakening www.popularwoodworking.com/article/hide-glue-in-liquid-form/
Thank you. That sounds very promising. You've convinced me to give it a go!
Hide glue doesn't weaken much with atmospheric humidity, what tends to cause failures is when the ambient RH falls to the 10-15% range. Then the glue becomes brittle, and you know the rest...
My 12-18 month old bottle of Titebond hide glue passes the “spiderweb test” but recently I’ve had glued joints fail due to re-absorption of moisture from the atmosphere. The glue had been hard for weeks but one humid day it softened and returned to a tacky state. The item was in a closed room in a shed; not sitting outside or on a deck. Is this a sign of the glue being too old or does this product simply not cope with SE QLD humidity?
That might be a question best directed to Titebond or the retailer as I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to answer! Moisture from the air shouldn't be anywhere near enough to reverse a hard joint unless the temperatures were >60c - sometimes to get enough moisture into a joint to reverse, people need to drill holes and inject water. Other use irons on the highest temperature/steam settings just to slightly loosen it up.
No interaction with vinegar or other chemicals that could have interrupted the bond?
No chemicals; I had removed the traces of old glue just using hot water, toothbrush and rags. Normally I don’t have anything lying around for too long but due to work commitments the item has stayed with me for weeks waiting for me to finish it off. I also found that glue residue on a plastic lid had also re-softened to the point I probably could have used it on a job… I guess I must have a dodgy batch 🙁
It sure sounds like it, yeah! Definitely something has contaminated it in the bottle. Old Brown Glue is supposed to be a bit more like traditional HHG, has a bit more strength and I think bit higher temperature tolerance. That might be worth a s hot?
Chris Vesper is the only importer in Australia AFAIK vespertools.com.au/old-brown-glue/
You forgot to mention hide glue is not vegan friendly 😅
If I mentioned vegan friendly, there would be anti-vegans making even more commotion.
@@TheWoodKnight jokes naturally... but is genuine hide glue still genuine animal hide?
@Fixit Fingers As far as I know, Titebonds product is made with animal hide, yes. Or more specifically, I think it is likely made from gelatin left over from other industries like medicine, but still not vegan.
Edit: It looks like this product was actually an April Fools by Woodworkers Journal that... they posted on the 3rd of April 2018. Original comment: "There was once a product called "Dr. Jekyll's Hyde Glue" which was meant to be purely synthetic/vegan, but I haven't been able to track down too much info for it."
If the vegans are eating hide glue, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
Not vegan, no. On the other hand, it could be branded as organic and 100% free-range, though.
The argument also extends to guitar builders. Many modern luthiers won't use the old hide glue but mostly use Titebond original for two big reasons; When a guitar is over 40 years old the hide glue can begin to fail and necks and bridges, tops begin to separate. It crystallizes and cracks, and it can even decay or oxidize as it is an animal protein. At any stage repair guys find it extremely difficult to de-bond. Heat is the tool to soften it but when it's old it either lets go on its own, or it won't melt. PVA will de-bond with heat more easily making repairs less destructive, and it won't decay, oxidize or crystallize the way Hide glue does. Others do use hide glue simply because it's a tradition.
There may be an issue with transmission of sound through joint dampened by 'softer' glues.
Never had a problem using a Wet rag cleaning any glue as I use a really wet rag.
Old timey craftsman never had the problem either.
It seems only stressed out TH-camrs do and then blame the glues instead of themselves.
I always laugh at this myth. I am not having a pop at you, I just kind of feel sad for those who panic for no real reason.
Honestly, give it a try, have a look at Steve Hay, I am sure you know him.
"only stressed out youtubers blame the glue" "not having a pop at you", guess we all know where the liquid in your rag is coming from...
Synthetics suck. Period.