Edit 2/25/22: As of the 2.0.0 update that adds Majora's Mask to NSO, the Watt crash has been fixed! Digging into exactly what they did has been made harder since extracting the Lua code they use is now more difficult, but either way, feel free to game over with Watt out lol. That said, saving is still handled in the same way, so I would recommend still making restore points regularly in case you run into any other crashes as they'll still "delete" your save data. Edit 1/20/22: Nope, this still isn't fixed after the Banjo-Kazooie update. 🙃 Hey! Just wanted to address one quick thing I didn't mention in the video. I didn't talk about the PAL version (the one where you can select different languages) because I don't have the tools to experiment with it as easily, but the crash does not happen on that version. It's exclusive to US. That's not really a good alternative though since PAL runs at 25 fps instead of the 30 that US and JP run at. Edit: Also since a lot of people have asked about it, we know why hammering that tree in Shiver City crashes too. That's actually a bug in the original game, but the developers just got lucky and the N64 happens to execute the garbage code it creates without crashing due to a quirk of the N64. It's hard to blame the devs for not catching that one. More info here: twitter.com/MrCheeze_/status/1473398636222586880?t=cC7W95Va_QSSNwJY6j9fWQ&s=19
On the start screen, is there an option for languages right below "Start Game"? If not, you're playing on the US version, which is included in the same NSO app as PAL versions behind a settings toggle.
This video is extremely high quality, JCog! It's my first time seeing your channel, and with the quality of this video, I thought your sub count would be in the hundreds of thousands! Your deserve more attention, for sure.
@@JCog Okay it all makes sense Now so it's not just me cause it happened when beat shy guy in the toy box with watt and then the game said software crashed and I thought it was because of the snow outside on my Electrical wires Then I restarted my switch And it brought me back to Koopa bros castle 🏰 like what thene tracked back again got to lava Parana on Yoshi island died no software that time second time fighting that boss I grabbed more so I wouldn't have to rely on my partners unless I really need to then same happened when I got to huffing puff lol get the idea and last but not least same thing when I was fighting bowser and almost beat him also would a sd card help that or do they just need to fix the games problems on their end I'm so glad someone else understands what is going on in this paper mario 64 on the switch like da hell my guy
Honestly the fact that they made the game _worse_ for a subscription-based service is just unacceptable. Somehow the Wii version may be better (Despite the 480p resolution, it still looks fine) and possibly the Wii U version. (Though that one suffers from the anti-flash filter and apparently some input problems, though I didn't have many troubles with it) Also imagine if they made it lag only for them to patch out bugs they artificially made
imo the Wii VC port is the best official port out there. the only thing that really holds it back is the lag, and that's just because of the underpowered Wii hardware.
@@JCog Yeah, it's definitely the most stable version out there, too bad it isn't available normally anymore (Though 7 times out of 10 someone's Wii is hacked so that doesn't matter much)
@@lighthope4202 Yeah the only (minor) problem I've had with it was during the cutscene tubba blubba breaks the bridge in his castle it lags like crazy.
The "no-crash-with-homebrew" is probably because of Mesosphere - a reimplementation of the switch's kernel included with atmosphere custom firmware. It's meant to be moddable and more memory efficient than the stock kernel. Chances are, mesosphere implements some function better than Nintendo did, letting the emulator recover instead of crashing.
Oh, interesting! I just did some googling to learn about Mesosphere, and I wonder if I install a pre-1.0 version of Atmosphere and opt out of it if the crashes would actually happen. I'll update here if I get around to trying that. Thank you for the info!
Can you test this theory by running on SXOS? Assuming of could the N64 games can be made to run at all on year old firmware. I've gotten games made for newer firmware to work on older firmware so I genuinely don't know, but it would be an interesting test if possible. I have read more than a few threads of people blaming SXOS for a problem that I have seen on an unmodified sysNAND so I can totally believe that atmosphere has some fixes that isn't in Nintendo's own firmware, especially since SXOS just copied Nintendo, but that actually makes SXOS the best platform to use to test these kinds of theories. I exclusively used SXOS for my offline Switches, primarily because I prefer the XCI mounting implementation. It's more convenient swapping files than uninstalling all the time. I probably would have converted my emuNAND to Atmosphere already, but the way people were pushing Atmosphere on threads unrelated to custom firmware came off as creepy. There's no putting it off anymore, but I'll definitely be saving my SXOS emuNAND backups for later tests and backed up their entire website before it went down.
I would have guessed its something like the debug mode or exception handling configured by exosphere or something similar. The people in the official reswitched discord will probably be happy to help understanding this problem, maybe just ask there if someone has an idea or way to reproduce the crash in cfw.
At this point it looks like their doing stuff intentionally to make their old games look bad, which is really disappointing. They did add code to lag it in the first place for "unknown reasons".
This one is a little unrelated, but they also did a similar thing with the browser on the New 3DS, it doesn't actually save your bookmarks/history unless you close the browser normally (via the home buttom), flushing the "save data" to the NAND. It's not that big of a deal for most people but for me, I tend to watch a lot of videos on my 3DS and take screenshots sometimes (via custom firmware). The problem is, when I open the Rosalina menu to take a screenshot, sometimes it crashes the browser/video player for some reason and doesn't save my bookmarks.
Nintendo just wanted to give everyone the genuine paper mario experience by making crashes more accessible. It really gives the experience of messing with a cartridge while inserted into the console. All jokes aside, you've convinced me that while I'd love to play Pape on the go, I should just hold off for the time being. if only there was a portable paper mario game (aside from Origami King)
Nintendo: "NoOOoO! You can't just emulate our old games on your PC!" also Nintendo: *doesn't bother to emulate many of their games properly for a $30 online service and ends up with a save file-deleting bug*
Im staying so far away from switch online. I got a cartridge for paper mario instead and emulate a lot of older games. At this point them messing up the emulation looks intentional to make their old games look bad, which isnt cool.
I love how there are Nintendo fans out there that are smart enough to fix the problems with games that Nintendo failed to even know about when releasing the product.
It sickens me that we're almost three months into the existence of Nintendo Switch Online Expansion and Nintendo has yet to even acknowledge, let alone address, the issues with it's N64 emulator.
The reason they absolutely hate unofficial emulators is probably because it performs arguably better for both the producer and consumer for no price at all, here they make it worse and a buttload of money as well just because they want to act as if unofficial emulators don’t exist, smh it’s an absolutely stupid decision to not playtest their ports and make sure there are no possible bugs
@@jaxsterminator8634 Sure. It's affordable. When you dont consider the expansion costing 50 bucks a year, with the same online connection problems as the regular one, buggy emulators and a lacking library at the moment.
@@jaxsterminator8634 welp bois we did it, we found the undercover nintendo agent
2 ปีที่แล้ว +61
In 3:31, judging by the commented log: "Now have Bubble Effect!!!", my hypothesis is that the lava bubble animations were doing something funky at some point in the emulator's development, and that's why they intentionally lagged this scene. But it seems that whatever was wrong here is no longer an issue, but the intentional lag is still in place.
The fact that they disallowed monthly plans for this "expansion pack" should tell you everything you need to know about the effort Nintendo is putting into this add-on. They knew it was sub-par, and if they allowed monthly, few would re-subscribe, so they locked suckers in for a year.
Uhm, you also can try it for a few months if you already have a running subscription, sooo... Also there's countries where you can go to government agencies that'll sue for a refund if necessary.
I won't be making excuses for Nintendo here. They're scum and deserve to be called out for this. Let this be a lesson to you, though. Don't get suckered into a service you know practically nothing about. Some blame has got to be on the idiots who fell for Nintendo's scheme.
I hate the fact they did a yearly subscription for it. I will never buy it. I'll just emulate the games using other means instead, it's easier and simply better
@@aurastrikeA year later and the line-up hasn't massively improved, as expected. If they want people to pay more than double the original yearly fee for this expansion, they need to do more to make it worthwhile.
Nintendo Employees: "Men, people want us to change the games a little bit..." "I have got an idea! Why don't we add code to make the game worse? That would count as changing the game!"
You have misunderstood. Presumably they were attempting to fix some other rare issue by limiting how quickly some stuff can happen (and inadvertently created a larger issue that happens more frequently than whatever it was that they were trying to fix). They weren’t, trying to make it worse. That would be stupid? Now, making those things run super slowly as a fix for [unknown problem that seems to be rare without the fix] seems like a very inelegant and bad solution, even if the unknown issue it is meant to solve was something more common, it would still be better to fix the actual issue.
@@thundergreen1133 I’m “on” *basic competence*. (Also my ADHD medication, but that’s besides the point. It is mostly out of my system by this time of night anyway.) Did you read my message explaining how such things could be there without it causing easily noticeable problems when removed? 1) it could reintroduce the problem but the problem could happen only rarely, as a race conditions bug 2) they could have been mistaken in thinking [unknown issue] was a possible issue when they applied the lua bit that causes the lag 3) it could have originally prevented [unknown issue], but now some other thing also prevents [unknown issue] rendering it redundant. Stop thinking like a conspiracy theorist. People talking about gamedev so often have no clue what they are talking about. If someone who has never written a line of code in their life is expressing an opinion about the programming side of gamedev stuff, you can agree with it or disagree with it, and I don’t mean that they shouldn’t have or express that opinion, but when you read it, you shouldn’t let it influence your opinion at all. It should have no weight. Don’t attribute to malice what is better explained by “some things are hard to do right, and man hour resources are limited, and sometimes are made to be more limited than they ideally would be as a not strictly necessary cost saving measure”.
This genuinely just pisses me off so so so so so so much. Nintendo just doesn't care at all and you're here figuring out like nearly every. single. problem. with the emulation on this game just by looking through the code. And they're gonna continue to get away with stuff like this because people are still gonna spend money on their crap, it's insane. They're never gonna change and I gotta just accept that at this point. It's so sad
Man, this sucks. If the crash is this easy to cause, I could see a lot of people losing everything at the end of chapter 6 (easily one of the hardest bosses in the game if you aren't prepared going in). The original Paper Mario was the first game I ever played through to completion and was easily my favorite game growing up (beat it with my brother and by myself on the N64 multiple times). I'd hate it if this buggy version made people think badly of the game, especially since the fix wouldn't be so hard to implement. Hope Nintendo does fix it soon, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
Huff N. Puff (the chapter 6 boss) is immune to Watt's Electro Dash (and probably electric attacks in general), so why would anyone use Watt in that fight?
I had never heard of you before; and I am not at the point in PM to have Watt yet but am glad to know this happens. But beyond all that.. I LOVE your investigative mindset and troubleshooting abilities. This was an awesome video and I wish I could hit the like button over and over. You've got my sub. This was awesome dude.
@@Defender1876 It only happens when certain conditions are met which are mentioned in the video. If you never get a game over with Watt as your partner then this won’t happen.
Wow, you've now convinced me not to get the expansion pass, because the only reason I wanted to get it, was for paper mario. I just hate how nintendo is making their emulators worse than they need to be. For now, I just gotta keep playing paper mario on my n64 because that's the only version of the game I own.
I have it on my wii and N64 as well, it's just not worth the extra 30 bucks a year if nintendo is willingly placing lag into the rom itself. It makes no sense to why they did this as it doesn't add anything to the game aside from lag and crashing. It's just a poor business practice since the N64 and Wii both ran fine, I didn't experience much lag on my N64 whenever I gamed over so it just doesn't make sense to me to why they add it to the switch version.
@@ego-lay_atman-bay ooh very good point, totally forgot about that since it's been a bit since I played it last on the N64. I still don't understand why Nintendo made their emulation of the game worse by adding needless lag in the switch though lol
The game would rather crash than let Watt go through the psychological trauma of watching someone die as a baby. {Minus the deaths she caused by defense penetrating}
You say that, but xbox, as much as me make fun of them, are the most consistent and frankly best at it, which is something I love watching the stuck up playstation users crash over acknowledging, like they never considered that Sony having spiderman doesn't mean they excel at everything over everyone. But only the pretentious assholes have this problem, so test waters before attempting to crash them.
@@shadowsnake5133 I am a playstation user but I have respect for Xbox as I play on xbox as well and I have to say playstation emulation (and of course Nintendo) is terrible. Xbox is the best for sure.
If you hammer the right most tree in Shiver City in the room with the warp pipe that leads to Toad Town Sewers in it, the game will also crash. Every. Time. I also ran into a crash after running away from a Shy Guy on Lava Lava island. Thankfully I used save states too so my progress wasn't affected as much.
@@osc-omb47896 If you're talking about the emulator devs, yes you can. Since it is as simple as just interacting with it... this means it wasn't tested OR they willing did not fix it.
This is outrageous on Nintendo’s part for not caring enough to emulate this game well enough for it’s overpriced subscription service. Stay with the NES and SNES, it’s not worth the extra $30 for these poor ports Edit: I know there are some people who aren’t able to emulate these games because they aren’t able to, but that’s more incentive for Nintendo to put all the N64 and genesis games into a virtual console in the eshop like the Wii or Wii U did instead of a overpriced subscription service. You shouldn’t have to pay 50 dollars a year to just play OOT on switch. On the other hand, if it was on the eshop you would be able to have a far more vaster selection of games and you would be able to pick what specific game you want permanently. So if you want to play anything specific like exitebike 64, you wouldn’t have to pay for any other game that you don’t want to pay for with it. The Wii and Wii U destroy the switch in this category of retro gaming. Not only in variety but in emulation quality also.
I remember getting this when dying to a Crazy Dazy. I was level grinding in Flower Fields because Amazee Dazy's give so much experience and I was preparing for Huff N Puff, I encountered a Regular Crazy Dazy, and it stun locks me to death. This resulted in a crash. And I lost all my progress... you can tell how upset I was.
@Omega If its that cheap and youre hoping for a real one, be sure to check it! If it is youre pretty lucky you got a local store with old stuff, there was one with real cartridges for 60 or 70 dollars each that I got my N64 from, but it disappeared
@@ZudeXbox360 EA buys companies and Milks them, Nintendo doesn't even buy companies or Milks companies until they die. Also Nintendo of America is literally Translating games, Marketing and Distribution. The actual decisions are made at Nintendo of Japan. And NSO existed a couple months BEFORE the New CEO of Nintendo of Japan
@@LennyQUMFIF NSO existed before the new japanese ceo, but this atrocious emulation didnt. The NES and SNES versions run and play fine, but N64 having bad emulation after the new ceo comes in, that cant be a coincidence.
@@gamingnubs7628 no, the N64 emulation is bad Since the Wii U, and no, its not because Iwata because it was good in Wii, why, because the software engineer Stephen Lee at NoA helped a lot in the emulation, and used UNIQUE emulators per game, then he left Nintendo in the Wii U days, and it was harder to make an N64 Emulator. And Wii U's N64 had some hate because it wasn't as good as wii N64, why? Because Stephen Lee left the company. Note how the N64 issue began *ON WII U, Not SWITCH* do some research before commenting
@@LennyQUMFIF the N64 emulator used on Wii U was the same as the Wii, the only difference being the added dark filter to remove the flashing light intensity.
I didn't really talk much about it because I don't have the tools to look into it as easily, but this is *only* on US. PAL and JP are both fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The moral of the story: Just use the save states feature on Nintendo switch online. I have used so I don’t lose to much progress when I die (just use it after you enter a battle, or get a star piece or a badge)
I feel like the actual Moral is don't buy NSO as it is ripping you off and giving you a poorly emulated systems which is more likely to cause damage then using fan made emulation.
You know what it probably is? (Pure speculation) On the N64 hardware, the RSP runs on the same clock as the CPU. (Well, with a frequency divider, but still, same clock source. I think.) So they’re in perfect lock step - for any given set of CPU instructions, the RSP will simultaneously execute the exact same number of instructions in the exact same time. Not so on the switch, where both are running on separate variable frequency CPU cores. So that my guess is that “RSPBrokeOne” function tells the RSP emulator “take one message off the queue and process it now, synchronously.” The process that manages queues of messages between processors is often called a *broker*. I reckon it pauses the CPU while it processes the display list, then when the CPU tries to touch that memory later, it’s marked as free and everything goes well… but if the RSP doesn’t process it in time, the CPU tries to touch it and it causes a segfault. On real N64 hardware, because the timing is predictable (or possibly because there’s no memory protection) this doesn’t happen. Actually, now that I think about it, the “no memory protection” is more likely to be the real culprit here. Maybe the original game caused memory corruption in this region, but it didn’t matter because the display list it was processing was off screen anyway and the RCP just kept on chugging. That would also explain your black frame - it’s the RCP (which holds the frame buffer) crashing. It starts again instantly, fast enough that the next buffer is drawn completely before the buffer swap, but for that one frame, the frame buffer is all zeroes. As for why it doesn’t crash with home brew, that other comment mentioning Mesosphere is probably bang on. What happens when a child process crashes, and shared memory as a whole, is totally governed by the kernel. Maybe in the switch kernel, the attempt to access shared memory by the CPU process crashes it, and in the home brew kernel, it crashes the RCP process. Maybe it’s something else. Who knows.
but like... why? it isn't an online game (afaik) so... why intentionally make the game worse for everyone in order to prevent a glitch you'd have to go out of your way to get to?
@@crowe3301 That fits perfectly with how Nintendo usually handles harmless glitches. They implement a bone-headed "fix" that makes the game worse for everyone involved.
This happened to me after dying during a regular battle in the middle of Chapter 6 and my save for some reason was sent back to the beginning of Chapter 5. I was so frustrated but luckily I had made a save state toward the end of Chapter 5 so I didn't have to redo the entire chapter.
My reasons for not getting the Expansion Pack so far: - I own or have played the games that do interest me in some other shape or form. - Many of them do not interest me, especially the Genesis games. - Subpar emulation - now crashes? No thanks, I'm sticking to the regular subscription.
Given that the calls that they're using that create lag are setting a parameter about "max tasks" to 1, my suspicion is that they're making the emulator temporarily disable multithreading in order to sidestep race conditions that they discovered in testing. I'm guessing they're working around emulator inaccuracies, and they decided that a bit of stutter is less bad than whatever the race condition would have done. (Which could be anything from data corruption to graphical glitches to deadlock.)
@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 Depends on what you mean by "better". Multithreading bugs are notoriously difficult to troubleshoot. Yes, in theory, there might be a way to solve the underlying problem, but there's no telling how much work it would take to even find out WHAT it is, much less actually fix it. It wouldn't be worth the developer time when temporarily turning off an inaccurate speed hack is good enough.
@@codahighland Are they turning off a speed hack? I don't quite fully understand the code shown, but it looks to me like they're turning *on* a slowness hack in these situations.
@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 Yes. Being able to run different parts of the hardware on different threads without accurate coordination between them is a speed hack. This turns off the threading (that is, sets the maximum number to 1) so that the steps happen in the right order.
@@codahighland As well as other ways to fix the issue, I'd also consider just, not. Let there be race conditions. If they don't affect the gameplay, they don't matter. ('Course we don't _know_ they didn't, but looking at the final clip it seems that way.)
Hmmm. Wonder if the difference in JP/US throws different offsets but they used the same offset reference for both US/JP? Or better, US could have simply an incorrect offset reference which would be why commenting one out fixes the issue. Together they don't play well because one code is broken but isn't noticeable but in this exact instance.
As far as I can tell, that does not appear to be the case. All the addresses they're looking at seem to check out as far as I and other who've looked can tell. That said, they did mess up and enter a 9-digit address with an extra zero for one section in both US and JP (lol), but it seems to work anyway, most likely because the beginning gets truncated in a way that makes it point to an equivalent address: twitter.com/JCog_/status/1469425040886276099?s=20
i've never understood adding lag to old games, emulating them so its consistent with speedrun times, sure. but when it comes with a big of a problem like this i mean what the hell
Many old console games were explicitly coded around the exact performance and instructions of their original hardware. It's going to matter for a lot of them. You don't want gameplay, cutscenes and sound being ran too quickly, and you ESPECIALLY don't want several bits of gameplay in particular desynchronized. Obviously, the problem lies with the emulator rather with the ROMs, but fans often didn't know the intricacies of older hardware and companies are under pressure to make money and may not have the right to certain licensed hardware any longer, thus the little ROM-specific hacks here and there.
@@CarbonRollerCaco I hate the fact they did the lag but understand why: Making a n64 accurate emulator is hard, but heck, they have a lot of manpower, but is too expensive to dedicate that, I bet this is some emulator on github + some switch specific stuff
@@nadadada3938 youd be right. this is a mildly upgraded version of the SM3DAS N64 Emulator. theres a whole video on the history of Nintendo emulation. youd probably be surpised just how long theyve been doing it, and sad with how far it fell
Nes lag in kirby dreamland slows my longplay of it so mucj sometimes that despite my knowledge of the game, for instance it lagged out during boss rush cause for some reason, Mr.Bright firing off sunrays kills a lot of fps and it led me to defeating Mr.Shine whereupon the game lagged out so much that somehow despite me dashing left to avoid Mr.Bright like i usually do, a star from jis rays hit me and well..killed my boss rush run.
I always thought the game crashed near the end of the game over because of the music, so I think it's funny that it does sometimes crash on this awful port.
This sounds like a classic case of a race condition based on the fact that you can remove unrelated code and it starts working. I have a feeling that they added the lag to try to avoid various race conditions.
The only explanation I could come up with is that maybe on an older version of the emulator, the game did crash, so they added hacks to fix it... and then the emulator fixed the root issue, but nobody dared remove the (now obsolete) hacks, especially since the hacks usually fixed glitches introduced by other hacks and so removing only *some* of them made things worse.
"Tell me if this sounds familiar. You're playing Paper Mario on your Nintendo Switch." Nope, not familiar at all. I knew a subpar service when I saw it and this is just more evidence towards the fact. Thank you for this.
The fact NSO doesn't store the save file till after you close the App is absolutely stupid and unforgivable as this means any crash will cost players hours of progress and we are still in a pandemic meaning people playing for many hours is more common. Since it is based on us closing the App it might be possible to lose your save through power outages or internet outages.
OK, I'll test this. Don't have the expansion, but it SHOULD work with the normal one too. Edit: That was really easy to test. Even if the internet goes down WHILE you're in the software, you'll still be allowed to play. So it's only crashes that would do that.
OK, 2 things: 1: A power outage doesn't prevent the switch from running 2: Even if it did, it would fall under "turning the switch off", which would be fine.
The reason why the emulator doesn't flush save data to the device until you close the app is because the programmers of yesteryear usually did some really silly stuff. Programmers often used SRAM as a scratchpad when memory was limited, so SRAM would get written to very often during gameplay. That's obviously no longer the case anymore with modern devices, but modern devices DO have flash memory which has a limited number of writes. So if the emulator flushed save data anytime SRAM was written to, old games that are guilty of this could kill sectors of the flash memory REALLY quick. The reason it waits until the app closes to flush the save data is because it's assumed there should be no more writing to SRAM happening at that point. I'm not sure if Paper Mario actually uses SRAM as a scratchpad, but note that this emulator is designed to be used with many games where programmers of those old games definitely didn't follow the same conventions.
@@y0shiness They could have added a lua script entry to detect game saves and then flushes SRAM. They could have also maybe added something like a watchdog timer that will flush the SRAM when it hasn't been written to after a certain amount of time, in addition to the shutdown flush. Maybe after 30 seconds to a minute or two. Would be the best of both worlds, saving flash writes, but also saving in case of crashes. Perhaps, for games with larger SRAMs, could have even implemented something that only flushes _changes_ in the SRAM to save on flash writes, as I think larger games still had less than 1 megabyte of SRAM. But any of that would take actually giving a darn on Nintendo's part.
I was somewhat considering getting the expansion pass maybe regret not asking for it for Christmas but this video convinced me I made the right choice.
If things keep up at this point for the paper Mario franchise, eventually a certain prideful bee, keen-eyed beetle, and mysterious undead moth will have carry on the flattened plumber’s bustling legacy.
This really opened my eyes to just how bad the N64 emulation is on Switch. I thought the Ocarina of Time texture errors were the worst it got, but this? Artificial lag in places where it isn't necessary? In-game save files not being permanently preserved until app shutdown while external save states get preserved immediately? A game crash caused by extremely specific and easy-to-replicate circumstances that can potentially wipe your entire save? This same crash only existing in specific region versions of the game? This is abhorrent. Glad I didn't spend the money on the NSO Expansion. This makes me dread the inevitable implementation of other consoles. If Nintendo can't even get N64 emulation right, I fear how they'd screw up Gamecube or Wii emulation, if those ever get added.
@@wompastompa3692 Apparently was there Emulator on Wii arguably better so I don't know if this should be taken as an excuse for why it runs to poorly on Switch.
This happened to me after I lost in the General Guy fight. Was thrown right back to the end of the first dungeon. Luckily I had a suspend point after the Tubba Blubba fight otherwise I would’ve stopped playing.
Watt isn't really required, but she definitely makes General Guy easier due to her attacks ignoring Defense. That's why General Guy accuses you of cheating in war when you use her. lol
My favorite fact about all this that I didn't mention is that I haven't seen a single report of someone getting a crash after dying to Huff. Huff is also immune to Watt's attacks. 🤔🤔🤔
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why on god's green earth one would deliberately make a pre-existent, perfectly fine product _worse._ Without all the hacks it runs just like a normal game should! :/ I'm probably not gonna be returning to Nintendo's works for a while.
I'd say money, but I don't see how this gives Nintendo ANY advantage. Maybe if they plan to release a paid Bugfix DLC, but if they did that surely they'd finally be done for, so that can't be it... right?
Oh what if they're holding themselves open for the option of making a standalone "remake" for full price at some point? Then they can point to how native performance is better than the Expansion's laggy mess to trick people into buying it!
Perhaps there's a different bug they accounted for by adding lag, which the community still hasn't discovered yet. I mean, it's not like there's that many other possibilities- adding lag really doesn't seem to benefit nintendo in any way
It’s incredible how people in the speed running community can know more about game code and memory and console hardware than me, and I’m a software engineer (albeit without any expertise in games) Great investigation! If only the bugs filed for me had this much information!
My 6 year old has been playing all week. He used sushi's ultra attack on flaming piranha in the volcano while both smaller ones were out and while the 2... Seed things were out as well. Game crashed when damage was dealt, loaded the game and he was back in goomba village at the beginning of the game. I watched the whole thing unfold and he's pretty upset. He was at like 20 hours or so. Pretty sucky situation.
The animations appear much faster. My theory to why they added the script was clock speed. There emulator runs too fast, so certain aspects jitter and flicker. Hence the manual lag scripts. No idea why they did that though, instead of capping emulation clock speed.
Full speed's probably needed elsewhere, plus these ROMs seem to be the same ones that the Wii U uses from what's been suggested elsewhere in this comment section.
My mom loves the Paper Mario games, but she is not an avid gamer. When she got a game over when she fought General Guy and her game crashed, her save file completely disappeared. Luckily I had told her about the save states, and onlly lost about an hour of gameplay, but that was about a week ago, and she still hasn't forgiven the game. I personally had my game crash by hitting a small tree in Shiver City, and I lost an entire day of gameplay (about five hours).
@DarkCoreX I had no idea the Paper Mario community was this elitist. people are playing this game for the first time, they’re gonna die with watt in a lot of different scenarios. This is a huge problem. Imagine if in Dark Souls 1, dying while using the Drake Sword caused a crash that deleted your save file. Sure, the Drake Sword isn’t a very good weapon, and most people would only use it in very early game scenarios where nothing is lost, but that’s still a massive problem. Especially for newer players following guides online.
Really? I guess I’m a god because I almost never used. Watt during the entire playthrough ( I didn’t know he pierced defence). I did die once on the final boss though
I literally played this game on my android phone with a emulator when i was a kid, and the save files on there were more safe, hell I beat the whole game on there. Hell, it had LESS lag, so it's even better, pathetic.
This happened to me the first weekend of its release on NSO. I played the second day for 8 hrs straight. Error occurred-save GONE. I use save points every 5 min now hahaha.
Imma be honest, I kept creating drafts (save points) and went to that save point if I died or was doing bad, but I actually managed to beat the general guy boss first try without resetting. And I was aware of how difficult it was, considering I first played this game as a kid on an emulator.
Thanks for showing Nintendo exactly why console modifications do not necessarily equal piracy. Sometimes you really have to be able to modify a game to play properly. In my home we own multiple copies of Mario Kart 8, but because there's no volume control in the game and because the music doesn't synchronize at all we also play on modified consoles where we remove the music file entirely. Otherwise it just doesn't play properly side-by-side with multiple TVs. And that's a minor issue compared to having to outright edit the code of the game just to make it work properly like you had to do. Maybe Nintendo should go back to pirating emulators. At least the scene dumps actually work.
They never downloaded scene roms. They hired the person who made iNES headers to make the official NES emulator in Animal Crossing, so he put the same headers on the official roms.
@@DarkLink1996. That's a commonly repeated myth. The header they used in the ROM files specifically came from an emulator that requires a commercial license to use in a commercial capacity and Nintendo does not have that license. There are claims they hired him later, but no claims that they actually purchased a license. Although, to be more precise, the iNES headers are manually added during the dumping process with information about the game cart according to community standards. They aren't automatically generated with them, but the emulators do require them to recognize the game. There's no reason for Nintendo to use them if they generated a new dump themselves unless they were using a copy of scene emulation software which required the headers. Even if they copied the iNES header system and had to use a header they wouldn't have to copy the same exact headers from scene dumps if they were going to dump their own. Of course, hypothetically speaking, if they did hire that guy to make a new emulator, but they downloaded scene dumps to use with it, that still supports the idea that Nintendo financially benefits from piracy. Logically speaking why would Nintendo go through all the trouble to make a new dump of an old game only to make the files identical to what's on the internet unnecessarily? Based on everything I read I believe that they pirated scene dumps. They likely said to themselves, "It's not piracy because it's ours, we can give ourselves written permission to copy it" which is absolutely true, but they don't own the ROM files. Let's put it another way : suppose I invented some new technology to take a windows program installer and I catch the installation Within he's special singular file type such that I could load the game up on a newer systems without having a mess with missing system files and such. Now let's suppose I released that technology to the public free for use non-commercially, but required that companies obtain a license if they want to commercial use it. Now let's say that someone who used my technology in a non commercial capacity shared an old game processed by such a technology and then the company that originally made the game decided to take that file and sell it. That company would be committing piracy because even though they owned the game they don't own the technology for running the game. Or to put it another way, that would be a bit like if you owned the game Minesweeper and you decided to sell it on Windows 3.1 disks that happens to include the entire Windows operating system but argue that it's okay because you hired Bill Gates once. That's not okay.
Update: with the release of Majora's mask on Nintendo switch online not only did they fix the crashing with Watt, but they also fix the fog of certain games so now the shadow link room in the water temple is completely fixed
Oh guys, you just have to go into the settings and turn off permadeath, sometimes it auto turns on so you just have to go to the settings, and click “delete all save data”
11:31 I remember that some day around 2019 I was playing kirby's adventure on nes online and was aiming for a 100% savefile, I had only one hit left for the final boss (won't name it for spoilers reasons, but y'know who I'm talking about, no, not dedede), but a random crash happened and my savefile just vanished, I appeared right back into level 4, there goes a whole afternoon of playing, I wish I have that amount of free time again, I'm still stuck there since I haven't played because of that
oh goodness i hadn't closed my Nintendo online app in DAYS. so glad this showed up on my suggestions and thanks for the pinned message about the update still not fixing it.
They have a scripting language that lets them apply various hacks to help fix game-specific issues the emulator might have. However, they've messed up and they've also added issues in these cases. I'm not sure the last sentence is supposed to mean though. They've been doing emulation quite well since the Wii.
Paper mario (and the possibility of perhaps getting the Thousand Year Door added later) was the only reason I regretted not getting this package deal on the switch. Knowing that yet again it's all a wash because Nintendo doesn't Care, makes me feel better, and points me towards those that do: Emulators
I will definitely be getting a Paper Mario cartridge for my N64 and probably with Wii U virtual console version too, but emulators are definitely great! I don’t want to support the trash switch online has become and there was no other way I would be able to play a different game, Yoshis Island, so I got an emulator and got to enjoy the true experience! Nintendo appears to be intentionally breaking their games on their switch online service to make them look bad and I don’t trust it one bit.
@DarkCoreX it's not unfortunate when those roms have more care and attention than the inferior versions that Nintendo is trying to make people pay for again. Their tactics thus far have been disgusting
I don't know if this was mentioned by anyone, but in regards to the intentional lag on the lava piranha fight, it's probably an accessibility measure. When the piranha takes damage, it shakes extremely rapidly (as can be seen in the segment at the end of the video), and perhaps the developers who implemented the hack thought that this rapid movement was problematic and perhaps potentially seizure-inducing, so the added lag slows this movement down and makes it less jarring for those more susceptible. That's the only legitimate reason I can see for adding lag. As for the other areas where this was done, I have no idea what their intent was.
You know, you're actually the first person to suggest that, and after talking with some others about it, I think this is our primary theory now, at least for this instance. It certainly makes the change much more reasonable as accessibility in games is objectively a good thing. Assuming this is the case though, they're really throwing out the baby with the bathwater considering how negatively this affects gameplay. It also doesn't explain why it was only done on the US release.
@@JCog Yeah those are definitely fair points. It's very much a band-aid approach to addressing an accessibility concern if that was their actual intent. While it does mitigate the concern, it comes at the cost of the gameplay experience as you said, and it also just looks extremely strange when the actual reasoning for this is unknown. On top of that, it is definitely even more strange that NTSC-J and PAL versions don't have these same patches (if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am). I know there are version differences between each version of the game, but I would imagine that same fight sequence plays out the same across all three versions, so one would think the same patch would be applied to all three, but it seems that it's just not, and the reasons for that are unknown and not at all clear. It also doesn't explain the other instances, but those could just as easily be for entirely separate reasons (ones that elude all of us), but I still don't quite understand why they bothered in those other spots.
@@ShyGuy. it's possible, but I'm not familiar enough with the game over sequence to be able to comment on that. Only reason I mentioned lava piranha was because the footage in the video was definitely enough to get a sense for how the battle plays out and why or how it could potentially be problematic
The Pause Menu occupies the whole screen, and when you change tabs, it flips over and changes colour. Even on laggy pause screens, it's kinda uncomfortable for me to look at and I'm not even epileptic.
@@Wiimeiser The fact that they added code that lags the game on purpose where it works perfectly fine without it is pretty messed up. It’s already messed up they’re making it so the game lags in the first place instead of fixing issues like this to make the experience the most enjoyable it can be. It makes me suspicious, more than I’ve already been, that they’re intentionally making these problems that shouldn’t exist. It really seems thats what theyre doing now, pushing out older games in a broken or inconvientient way, going as far as to label their sort of broken ports of SM64, Super Mario Sunshine and SMG as 3D all stars even though the original all stars was really well made remakes of older games, then trashing it like those older games meant nothing. They once did care about their older games clearly. Even virtual console, at least on my 3DS, worked really well and let me play the games without a subscription cost. But now it feels like they want those games to look much lesser to their newer stuff and want to lower expectations or something. I always prefer their older games to their new stuff as of now, and them making a mockery out of their amazing, incredible older games isn’t gonna change my mind. This is just my opinion by the way, but origami king is pretty boring so far and theres nothing convincing me to continue even if it gets better. Im trying to get a Paper Mario 64 cartridge now since I saw it being played and it looks so much more interesting! A lot of them are available so I might get one soon! As for switch online, I am definitely avoiding any of it, it is not for me and would be a real waste of my money, especially with these intentionally and sadly broken games…
@@craftyawesome6830 graphics cards have nothing to do with emulation. The cpu matters way more. N64 games are so low spec an iPhone 4 can play them just fine
I too have been a victim of Nintendo’s intentional sub-standard game design. I lost my entire save file after dying to the Lava Piranha Plant… that was a lot of progress. 😣
Back when N64 Online was released, I was already pretty skeptical about it, given some of its issues. This only makes things seem worse. I'm glad I bought Paper Mario on Wii U VC a while back, even if it isn't the best version. At least I know I can play with Watt and *not* lose data due to a crash
For the part where you mentioned it crashes but only saves game once you hit the save block and then actually exit the app. Its not even just for NSO 64. Its for N64 games in general just as mentioned in your video! I have tested this with OOT and other N64 games via CFW switch as roms running through retroarch. If they crash and you never exited the game after saving. Boom tons of hours lost. Like a computer program that doesn't actually save until you terminate successfully lol. Why this happens only for N64 games baffles me and it encourages people to use save states more. 3DS games no need to worry. Can just save normally and it actually completes the save. N64 though you gotta be very careful which sucks :(. Almost like a very stringy buggy code man!
Glad I saw this. Was about to start playing this game. So basically, don't keep the app open unnecessarily (something I don't do anyway), make use of save states, and if I see it's about to happen and I didn't get to save prior and close the app, just close it myself before it can crash and reload from my last save. Got'cha. I suppose there's also Option D, as in Don't use Watt, but that seems unfair to the little tyke.
I did toy train early, got to General Guy, died and it reverted my save to just after getting the toy train. I was honestly confused. Also normal crashes on switch online freeze paper mario(like the double dip egg bomb on lava piranha crash), but allow you to reset the game with minus. But this crashes the entire software, weird... Edit: This is your first video with 100k views, congrats.
I think it's because most crashes we've seen are properly handled by the game. Usually with the freeze it's actually an infinite loop because the music will still normally play (meaning the game IS running). The new issues we see are due to extra code added in that isn't exception-handled at all. So when it can't handle it, you get the hard crash (fatal).
also for what it's worth, Double Dip Egg Missile against LP crashes in inconsistent ways on Switch. sometimes it does what you said where it lets you reset the game still. but if you leave it for long enough, it'll eventually fully lock up and you'll have to close the NSO app manually, which will then make it crash. other times it just locks up immedately lol.
I knew it! I knew I didn't forget to save the game! Ever since I had to replay the whole shy guy toybox part I was wondering whether I was just being dumb again and forgot to save the game but this confirms that I didn't! Thanks
I'm 1000% sure SOMEONE on the internet is going to defend this and say that Nintendo did nothing wrong and "just don't use Watt" or "get good." While I agree that this is a mistake, this is a product that people are paying EXTRA money for, and they can just have their entire save deleted. TBH if that happened to me, I'd NEVER play the game again, and I'd feel cheated out of my money in a way. (This is all on top of the plethora of other issues the service has btw)
That's actually a bug in the original game, but the developers just got lucky and the N64 happens to execute the garbage code it creates without crashing due to a quirk of the N64. It's hard to blame the devs for not catching that one. More info here: twitter.com/MrCheeze_/status/1473398636222586880?t=cC7W95Va_QSSNwJY6j9fWQ&s=19
I was able to 100% complete this game on the switch NSO thanks for this video! Thank you for sharing this and the tree glitch in your pinned comments. Avoiding this tree and Watt game over screens, allowed me to beat the game with 0 issues
![Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door Beta Content | LOST BITS [TetraBitGaming]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NdfEbD_yV7Q/mqdefault.jpg)
![Longplay of Paper Mario [HD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zNPQpoP_mdc/mqdefault.jpg)
Edit 2/25/22: As of the 2.0.0 update that adds Majora's Mask to NSO, the Watt crash has been fixed! Digging into exactly what they did has been made harder since extracting the Lua code they use is now more difficult, but either way, feel free to game over with Watt out lol. That said, saving is still handled in the same way, so I would recommend still making restore points regularly in case you run into any other crashes as they'll still "delete" your save data.
Edit 1/20/22: Nope, this still isn't fixed after the Banjo-Kazooie update. 🙃
Hey! Just wanted to address one quick thing I didn't mention in the video. I didn't talk about the PAL version (the one where you can select different languages) because I don't have the tools to experiment with it as easily, but the crash does not happen on that version. It's exclusive to US. That's not really a good alternative though since PAL runs at 25 fps instead of the 30 that US and JP run at.
Edit: Also since a lot of people have asked about it, we know why hammering that tree in Shiver City crashes too. That's actually a bug in the original game, but the developers just got lucky and the N64 happens to execute the garbage code it creates without crashing due to a quirk of the N64. It's hard to blame the devs for not catching that one. More info here: twitter.com/MrCheeze_/status/1473398636222586880?t=cC7W95Va_QSSNwJY6j9fWQ&s=19
Sorry mate. I'm Australian and I get the crash.from my knowledge most Australian copies are pal versions.
On the start screen, is there an option for languages right below "Start Game"? If not, you're playing on the US version, which is included in the same NSO app as PAL versions behind a settings toggle.
@@JCog and heres me thinking Australia is behind America. Always assumed I had pal due to being Australian. Thanks man you taught me something
This video is extremely high quality, JCog! It's my first time seeing your channel, and with the quality of this video, I thought your sub count would be in the hundreds of thousands! Your deserve more attention, for sure.
@@JCog Okay it all makes sense Now so it's not just me cause it happened when beat shy guy in the toy box with watt and then the game said software crashed and I thought it was because of the snow outside on my Electrical wires Then I restarted my switch And it brought me back to Koopa bros castle 🏰 like what thene tracked back again got to lava Parana on Yoshi island died no software that time second time fighting that boss I grabbed more so I wouldn't have to rely on my partners unless I really need to then same happened when I got to huffing puff lol get the idea and last but not least same thing when I was fighting bowser and almost beat him also would a sd card help that or do they just need to fix the games problems on their end I'm so glad someone else understands what is going on in this paper mario 64 on the switch like da hell my guy
Honestly the fact that they made the game _worse_ for a subscription-based service is just unacceptable. Somehow the Wii version may be better (Despite the 480p resolution, it still looks fine) and possibly the Wii U version. (Though that one suffers from the anti-flash filter and apparently some input problems, though I didn't have many troubles with it)
Also imagine if they made it lag only for them to patch out bugs they artificially made
imo the Wii VC port is the best official port out there. the only thing that really holds it back is the lag, and that's just because of the underpowered Wii hardware.
@@JCog Yeah, it's definitely the most stable version out there, too bad it isn't available normally anymore (Though 7 times out of 10 someone's Wii is hacked so that doesn't matter much)
Yeah big fan of the Wii u vc version. Haven’t had any troubles with it either
@@lighthope4202 Yeah, it's definitely the best available port out there.
@@lighthope4202 Yeah the only (minor) problem I've had with it was during the cutscene tubba blubba breaks the bridge in his castle it lags like crazy.
The "no-crash-with-homebrew" is probably because of Mesosphere - a reimplementation of the switch's kernel included with atmosphere custom firmware. It's meant to be moddable and more memory efficient than the stock kernel. Chances are, mesosphere implements some function better than Nintendo did, letting the emulator recover instead of crashing.
Oh, interesting! I just did some googling to learn about Mesosphere, and I wonder if I install a pre-1.0 version of Atmosphere and opt out of it if the crashes would actually happen. I'll update here if I get around to trying that. Thank you for the info!
Can you test this theory by running on SXOS? Assuming of could the N64 games can be made to run at all on year old firmware. I've gotten games made for newer firmware to work on older firmware so I genuinely don't know, but it would be an interesting test if possible.
I have read more than a few threads of people blaming SXOS for a problem that I have seen on an unmodified sysNAND so I can totally believe that atmosphere has some fixes that isn't in Nintendo's own firmware, especially since SXOS just copied Nintendo, but that actually makes SXOS the best platform to use to test these kinds of theories.
I exclusively used SXOS for my offline Switches, primarily because I prefer the XCI mounting implementation. It's more convenient swapping files than uninstalling all the time. I probably would have converted my emuNAND to Atmosphere already, but the way people were pushing Atmosphere on threads unrelated to custom firmware came off as creepy. There's no putting it off anymore, but I'll definitely be saving my SXOS emuNAND backups for later tests and backed up their entire website before it went down.
I would have guessed its something like the debug mode or exception handling configured by exosphere or something similar.
The people in the official reswitched discord will probably be happy to help understanding this problem, maybe just ask there if someone has an idea or way to reproduce the crash in cfw.
The fact that it crashes so easily is pretty bad, but the fact that it doesn't flush save data is absurd. Have they never heard of batteries!?
At this point it looks like their doing stuff intentionally to make their old games look bad, which is really disappointing. They did add code to lag it in the first place for "unknown reasons".
@@Lizuma Talk about broken by design..
Not just batteries...basic friggin game design logic for saves...they should know better than this and yet, here we are.
This one is a little unrelated, but they also did a similar thing with the browser on the New 3DS, it doesn't actually save your bookmarks/history unless you close the browser normally (via the home buttom), flushing the "save data" to the NAND. It's not that big of a deal for most people but for me, I tend to watch a lot of videos on my 3DS and take screenshots sometimes (via custom firmware). The problem is, when I open the Rosalina menu to take a screenshot, sometimes it crashes the browser/video player for some reason and doesn't save my bookmarks.
That's always bugged me, kinda defeats half the value of saving, crash insurance.
Nintendo just wanted to give everyone the genuine paper mario experience by making crashes more accessible. It really gives the experience of messing with a cartridge while inserted into the console. All jokes aside, you've convinced me that while I'd love to play Pape on the go, I should just hold off for the time being. if only there was a portable paper mario game (aside from Origami King)
Well....if you are desperate....there's sticker star.
@@nologicneeded1476 LOL I wouldn't wish that game on my worst enemy.
@@Darth555 Your worst enemy likes Paper Mario: Sticker Star.
I think they made a mistake in the coding. I think they did it by accident. I don't think they intended for the game to crash.
@@nicholasdaisyawesomeness1291 Have you heard of sarcasm?
Nintendo: "NoOOoO! You can't just emulate our old games on your PC!"
also Nintendo: *doesn't bother to emulate many of their games properly for a $30 online service and ends up with a save file-deleting bug*
*$50 online service
Play em on your phone. It can emulate all but the last 2 if it's newer. But why would you play those anyway
its 100 reais for me here in Brazil. painful.
@@Matt-pd5dh 100? Thats double the amount us in the US have to pay. Least our option is annual tho. Like a smaller annoying annual rent
Im staying so far away from switch online. I got a cartridge for paper mario instead and emulate a lot of older games. At this point them messing up the emulation looks intentional to make their old games look bad, which isnt cool.
I love how there are Nintendo fans out there that are smart enough to fix the problems with games that Nintendo failed to even know about when releasing the product.
that's grammatically incorrect. Putting nintendo fan and smart in the same sentence is kind of an oxymoron.
@@64bitmodels66 roaste
d
@@64bitmodels66 Not sure what intellect has to do with liking Nintendo. JCog clearly is a pretty smart guy, and he likes PM.
Dont forget the best part.
Problems that were NOT in previous versions of the product...that was released 3 times before(N64,Wii and Wii U)
No, they knew based on the attempted fix, they just didn’t care enough to see if they actually fixed it
It sickens me that we're almost three months into the existence of Nintendo Switch Online Expansion and Nintendo has yet to even acknowledge, let alone address, the issues with it's N64 emulator.
This is Nintendo. They are eternal boomers who couldn't make GOOD AFFORDABLE Online Services, if their company depended on it
@@KittyKatty999 You'd think boomers would at least care about their boomer games.
The reason they absolutely hate unofficial emulators is probably because it performs arguably better for both the producer and consumer for no price at all, here they make it worse and a buttload of money as well just because they want to act as if unofficial emulators don’t exist, smh it’s an absolutely stupid decision to not playtest their ports and make sure there are no possible bugs
@@jaxsterminator8634 Sure. It's affordable.
When you dont consider the expansion costing 50 bucks a year, with the same online connection problems as the regular one, buggy emulators and a lacking library at the moment.
@@jaxsterminator8634 welp bois we did it, we found the undercover nintendo agent
In 3:31, judging by the commented log: "Now have Bubble Effect!!!", my hypothesis is that the lava bubble animations were doing something funky at some point in the emulator's development, and that's why they intentionally lagged this scene. But it seems that whatever was wrong here is no longer an issue, but the intentional lag is still in place.
The fact that they disallowed monthly plans for this "expansion pack" should tell you everything you need to know about the effort Nintendo is putting into this add-on. They knew it was sub-par, and if they allowed monthly, few would re-subscribe, so they locked suckers in for a year.
Uhm, you also can try it for a few months if you already have a running subscription, sooo...
Also there's countries where you can go to government agencies that'll sue for a refund if necessary.
I won't be making excuses for Nintendo here. They're scum and deserve to be called out for this. Let this be a lesson to you, though. Don't get suckered into a service you know practically nothing about. Some blame has got to be on the idiots who fell for Nintendo's scheme.
I hate the fact they did a yearly subscription for it. I will never buy it. I'll just emulate the games using other means instead, it's easier and simply better
@@aurastrikeA year later and the line-up hasn't massively improved, as expected. If they want people to pay more than double the original yearly fee for this expansion, they need to do more to make it worthwhile.
@@fluffynator6222 Doesn't mean it's excusable really..
It's so cool of Nintendo to implement a secret hardcore mode into paper Mario, my permadeath playthrough will be so much easier to do now
The subliminal messaging of “Play Bug Fables” will not go unnoticed
nor should it
Paper Mario 7: The Everlasting Sapling
Maybe Nintendo wants to kill of proper paper mario. Let big fables take over!
Does not crash and lose progress, is cheaper, not tied to subscription service. Has bugs, but the good kind.
@@kennycarter5682 you need to change big to bug
you have to understand, nintendo is such a small indie company, they could never afford to fix their games or test them :(
Yeah you can't expect a 100 million dollar international corporation to outdo a few random hobbyist gamers with Twitch streams.
@@halcyonacoustic7366 More like 95 billion, but how will this poor company take on all these gamers and the fan-games of their properties
@@cheesyghetti8994 if only Pokemon and Mario were more mainstream
just like gamefreak xd
💀💀💀
Nintendo deliberately adding code to the game to be worse is stupid hilarious to me
Nintendo Employees: "Men, people want us to change the games a little bit..." "I have got an idea! Why don't we add code to make the game worse? That would count as changing the game!"
“There, that’ll make ‘em buy the original!”
You have misunderstood.
Presumably they were attempting to fix some other rare issue by limiting how quickly some stuff can happen (and inadvertently created a larger issue that happens more frequently than whatever it was that they were trying to fix).
They weren’t, trying to make it worse. That would be stupid?
Now, making those things run super slowly as a fix for [unknown problem that seems to be rare without the fix] seems like a very inelegant and bad solution, even if the unknown issue it is meant to solve was something more common, it would still be better to fix the actual issue.
@@drdca8263 People have removed the added code and the game works perfectly what are you on
@@thundergreen1133 I’m “on” *basic competence*. (Also my ADHD medication, but that’s besides the point. It is mostly out of my system by this time of night anyway.)
Did you read my message explaining how such things could be there without it causing easily noticeable problems when removed?
1) it could reintroduce the problem but the problem could happen only rarely, as a race conditions bug
2) they could have been mistaken in thinking [unknown issue] was a possible issue when they applied the lua bit that causes the lag
3) it could have originally prevented [unknown issue], but now some other thing also prevents [unknown issue] rendering it redundant.
Stop thinking like a conspiracy theorist.
People talking about gamedev so often have no clue what they are talking about.
If someone who has never written a line of code in their life is expressing an opinion about the programming side of gamedev stuff, you can agree with it or disagree with it, and I don’t mean that they shouldn’t have or express that opinion, but when you read it, you shouldn’t let it influence your opinion at all. It should have no weight.
Don’t attribute to malice what is better explained by “some things are hard to do right, and man hour resources are limited, and sometimes are made to be more limited than they ideally would be as a not strictly necessary cost saving measure”.
This genuinely just pisses me off so so so so so so much. Nintendo just doesn't care at all and you're here figuring out like nearly every. single. problem. with the emulation on this game just by looking through the code. And they're gonna continue to get away with stuff like this because people are still gonna spend money on their crap, it's insane. They're never gonna change and I gotta just accept that at this point. It's so sad
FAX
True switch can go in a ditch
@@TheMrfoxguy I likw the switch it good console with many good games on it, I just think Nintendos services as off late have been lackluster.
So true! The fact people actually keep trying to justify this, makes me sick!
true
Man, this sucks. If the crash is this easy to cause, I could see a lot of people losing everything at the end of chapter 6 (easily one of the hardest bosses in the game if you aren't prepared going in).
The original Paper Mario was the first game I ever played through to completion and was easily my favorite game growing up (beat it with my brother and by myself on the N64 multiple times). I'd hate it if this buggy version made people think badly of the game, especially since the fix wouldn't be so hard to implement. Hope Nintendo does fix it soon, but I'm not holding my breath on that.
Bro, same. It was also the first game I beat start to finish all by myself. I loved the game so much.
Huff N. Puff (the chapter 6 boss) is immune to Watt's Electro Dash (and probably electric attacks in general), so why would anyone use Watt in that fight?
Wdym Crystal King is MUCH harder
I had never heard of you before; and I am not at the point in PM to have Watt yet but am glad to know this happens. But beyond all that.. I LOVE your investigative mindset and troubleshooting abilities. This was an awesome video and I wish I could hit the like button over and over. You've got my sub. This was awesome dude.
i been playing paper mario and have had no crashes
@@Defender1876 It only happens when certain conditions are met which are mentioned in the video. If you never get a game over with Watt as your partner then this won’t happen.
Wow, you've now convinced me not to get the expansion pass, because the only reason I wanted to get it, was for paper mario. I just hate how nintendo is making their emulators worse than they need to be. For now, I just gotta keep playing paper mario on my n64 because that's the only version of the game I own.
I have it on my wii and N64 as well, it's just not worth the extra 30 bucks a year if nintendo is willingly placing lag into the rom itself. It makes no sense to why they did this as it doesn't add anything to the game aside from lag and crashing. It's just a poor business practice since the N64 and Wii both ran fine, I didn't experience much lag on my N64 whenever I gamed over so it just doesn't make sense to me to why they add it to the switch version.
@@tigerspruce8580 it doesn't lag when you game over on n64, but I have noticed that it does lag after you win battle and you get a ton of coins.
@@ego-lay_atman-bay ooh very good point, totally forgot about that since it's been a bit since I played it last on the N64. I still don't understand why Nintendo made their emulation of the game worse by adding needless lag in the switch though lol
@@tigerspruce8580 I just know that little lag spike because I recently (a few months ago) beat the game.
I got expansion pack for Yoshi’s Island.
The game would rather crash than let Watt go through the psychological trauma of watching someone die as a baby. {Minus the deaths she caused by defense penetrating}
Someday these companies will learn how to port and emulate their own games.. someday.
Nah
You say that, but xbox, as much as me make fun of them, are the most consistent and frankly best at it, which is something I love watching the stuck up playstation users crash over acknowledging, like they never considered that Sony having spiderman doesn't mean they excel at everything over everyone. But only the pretentious assholes have this problem, so test waters before attempting to crash them.
@@shadowsnake5133 I am a playstation user but I have respect for Xbox as I play on xbox as well and I have to say playstation emulation (and of course Nintendo) is terrible. Xbox is the best for sure.
for now they're doing a great job...
...at doing steps back
@@shadowsnake5133 XBox even beats Nintendo _at N64 games_ (just look at Rare Replay and XBLA), Microsoft does what Nintendon't!
If you hammer the right most tree in Shiver City in the room with the warp pipe that leads to Toad Town Sewers in it, the game will also crash. Every. Time. I also ran into a crash after running away from a Shy Guy on Lava Lava island. Thankfully I used save states too so my progress wasn't affected as much.
The tree crashes because it executes garbage code but for whatever reason the N64 won't crash, but the Switch will. Can't blame the devs for that
@@osc-omb47896 If you're talking about the emulator devs, yes you can. Since it is as simple as just interacting with it... this means it wasn't tested OR they willing did not fix it.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 they got lucky with the N64, you expect them to even remember that did that?
@@osc-omb47896 they literally added codes that artificially add lags for no apparent reason, so yes they could have added code to fix the damn tree
@@RaphielShiraha64 it's a fucking tree that nobody remembers is bugged.
This is outrageous on Nintendo’s part for not caring enough to emulate this game well enough for it’s overpriced subscription service. Stay with the NES and SNES, it’s not worth the extra $30 for these poor ports
Edit: I know there are some people who aren’t able to emulate these games because they aren’t able to, but that’s more incentive for Nintendo to put all the N64 and genesis games into a virtual console in the eshop like the Wii or Wii U did instead of a overpriced subscription service. You shouldn’t have to pay 50 dollars a year to just play OOT on switch. On the other hand, if it was on the eshop you would be able to have a far more vaster selection of games and you would be able to pick what specific game you want permanently. So if you want to play anything specific like exitebike 64, you wouldn’t have to pay for any other game that you don’t want to pay for with it. The Wii and Wii U destroy the switch in this category of retro gaming. Not only in variety but in emulation quality also.
true, i've never looked at buying the expansion pack yet
@@partitionhlep i thought about it the other day but i was like "let's see how paper Mario is" and now I'm not looking at it anymore
@@sidepanel4763 is that supposed to be some sort of insult or similarity or...
No wonder they hate unofficial emulators so much. They _know_ that others are doing it better for free both on the producer side an the consumer side.
@@jaxsterminator8634
That must be one tasty boot.
My solution is to just use suspended points whenever I use a hard save. That's how I recovered from the game crashing after hitting a random tree.
I remember getting this when dying to a Crazy Dazy. I was level grinding in Flower Fields because Amazee Dazy's give so much experience and I was preparing for Huff N Puff, I encountered a Regular Crazy Dazy, and it stun locks me to death. This resulted in a crash. And I lost all my progress... you can tell how upset I was.
Why'd you have Watt out? I thought they're immune to paralysis.
I made a note to stay far away from the broken switch online version, and switch online itself. Im gonna get a cartrigde soon instead
@@Lizuma yeah emulation gives you a better version of paper mario, for free
@Omega I just got my real Paper Mario cartridge and it works really well, its 100 dollars for a real one but it was worth it to me
@Omega If its that cheap and youre hoping for a real one, be sure to check it! If it is youre pretty lucky you got a local store with old stuff, there was one with real cartridges for 60 or 70 dollars each that I got my N64 from, but it disappeared
I think it’s very obvious that Nintendo made the expansion pack an awful cash grab
Wasn't Doug Bowser at one point with EA?
@@ZudeXbox360 EA buys companies and Milks them, Nintendo doesn't even buy companies or Milks companies until they die.
Also Nintendo of America is literally Translating games, Marketing and Distribution.
The actual decisions are made at Nintendo of Japan.
And NSO existed a couple months BEFORE the New CEO of Nintendo of Japan
@@LennyQUMFIF NSO existed before the new japanese ceo, but this atrocious emulation didnt. The NES and SNES versions run and play fine, but N64 having bad emulation after the new ceo comes in, that cant be a coincidence.
@@gamingnubs7628 no, the N64 emulation is bad Since the Wii U, and no, its not because Iwata because it was good in Wii, why, because the software engineer Stephen Lee at NoA helped a lot in the emulation, and used UNIQUE emulators per game, then he left Nintendo in the Wii U days, and it was harder to make an N64 Emulator. And Wii U's N64 had some hate because it wasn't as good as wii N64, why? Because Stephen Lee left the company.
Note how the N64 issue began *ON WII U, Not SWITCH* do some research before commenting
@@LennyQUMFIF the N64 emulator used on Wii U was the same as the Wii, the only difference being the added dark filter to remove the flashing light intensity.
Curious question, do the crashes also happen on the Pal Version of Paper Mario that switch online offers, or is this purely an NTSC issue?
I didn't really talk much about it because I don't have the tools to look into it as easily, but this is *only* on US. PAL and JP are both fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The moral of the story: Just use the save states feature on Nintendo switch online. I have used so I don’t lose to much progress when I die (just use it after you enter a battle, or get a star piece or a badge)
Hail to you. I use the save state feature and rewind feature all the time.
I feel like the actual Moral is don't buy NSO as it is ripping you off and giving you a poorly emulated systems which is more likely to cause damage then using fan made emulation.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 How does it cause damage? All it affects is itself.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 no. Buy normal nso. Just not the expansion pack. The nes and snes emulato way better than this n64 emulato.
@@camharkness or just emulate all of the old games since...
why the fuck must we pay for decade old games,
for the fifth time now
10:19
JCog: "But first, we need to-"
My brain: -talk about *PARALLEL UNIVERSES*
You know what it probably is? (Pure speculation)
On the N64 hardware, the RSP runs on the same clock as the CPU. (Well, with a frequency divider, but still, same clock source. I think.) So they’re in perfect lock step - for any given set of CPU instructions, the RSP will simultaneously execute the exact same number of instructions in the exact same time. Not so on the switch, where both are running on separate variable frequency CPU cores.
So that my guess is that “RSPBrokeOne” function tells the RSP emulator “take one message off the queue and process it now, synchronously.” The process that manages queues of messages between processors is often called a *broker*. I reckon it pauses the CPU while it processes the display list, then when the CPU tries to touch that memory later, it’s marked as free and everything goes well… but if the RSP doesn’t process it in time, the CPU tries to touch it and it causes a segfault. On real N64 hardware, because the timing is predictable (or possibly because there’s no memory protection) this doesn’t happen.
Actually, now that I think about it, the “no memory protection” is more likely to be the real culprit here. Maybe the original game caused memory corruption in this region, but it didn’t matter because the display list it was processing was off screen anyway and the RCP just kept on chugging.
That would also explain your black frame - it’s the RCP (which holds the frame buffer) crashing. It starts again instantly, fast enough that the next buffer is drawn completely before the buffer swap, but for that one frame, the frame buffer is all zeroes.
As for why it doesn’t crash with home brew, that other comment mentioning Mesosphere is probably bang on. What happens when a child process crashes, and shared memory as a whole, is totally governed by the kernel. Maybe in the switch kernel, the attempt to access shared memory by the CPU process crashes it, and in the home brew kernel, it crashes the RCP process. Maybe it’s something else. Who knows.
Thank you for this! I don't have much to add, but this is very insightful.
Is the menu lag possibly some sort of weak attempt at preventing the use of menu storage glitches?
it used to lag just like that or worse some years back in N64 emulators, like with Ocarina of Time pausing.
but like... why? it isn't an online game (afaik) so... why intentionally make the game worse for everyone in order to prevent a glitch you'd have to go out of your way to get to?
@@crowe3301 That fits perfectly with how Nintendo usually handles harmless glitches. They implement a bone-headed "fix" that makes the game worse for everyone involved.
@@JellyMyst you can't just play the way nintendo doesn't want you to!
Somehow I think the menu lag patched particle storage in shooting star summit
This happened to me after dying during a regular battle in the middle of Chapter 6 and my save for some reason was sent back to the beginning of Chapter 5. I was so frustrated but luckily I had made a save state toward the end of Chapter 5 so I didn't have to redo the entire chapter.
My reasons for not getting the Expansion Pack so far:
- I own or have played the games that do interest me in some other shape or form.
- Many of them do not interest me, especially the Genesis games.
- Subpar emulation
- now crashes?
No thanks, I'm sticking to the regular subscription.
Given that the calls that they're using that create lag are setting a parameter about "max tasks" to 1, my suspicion is that they're making the emulator temporarily disable multithreading in order to sidestep race conditions that they discovered in testing. I'm guessing they're working around emulator inaccuracies, and they decided that a bit of stutter is less bad than whatever the race condition would have done. (Which could be anything from data corruption to graphical glitches to deadlock.)
Surely there were far better ways to fix that issue, no?
@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 Depends on what you mean by "better". Multithreading bugs are notoriously difficult to troubleshoot. Yes, in theory, there might be a way to solve the underlying problem, but there's no telling how much work it would take to even find out WHAT it is, much less actually fix it. It wouldn't be worth the developer time when temporarily turning off an inaccurate speed hack is good enough.
@@codahighland Are they turning off a speed hack? I don't quite fully understand the code shown, but it looks to me like they're turning *on* a slowness hack in these situations.
@@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932 Yes. Being able to run different parts of the hardware on different threads without accurate coordination between them is a speed hack. This turns off the threading (that is, sets the maximum number to 1) so that the steps happen in the right order.
@@codahighland As well as other ways to fix the issue, I'd also consider just, not. Let there be race conditions. If they don't affect the gameplay, they don't matter. ('Course we don't _know_ they didn't, but looking at the final clip it seems that way.)
Glad to have a Paper Mario video again! You're the only person I go to learn stuff about the game from really
Hmmm. Wonder if the difference in JP/US throws different offsets but they used the same offset reference for both US/JP? Or better, US could have simply an incorrect offset reference which would be why commenting one out fixes the issue. Together they don't play well because one code is broken but isn't noticeable but in this exact instance.
As far as I can tell, that does not appear to be the case. All the addresses they're looking at seem to check out as far as I and other who've looked can tell. That said, they did mess up and enter a 9-digit address with an extra zero for one section in both US and JP (lol), but it seems to work anyway, most likely because the beginning gets truncated in a way that makes it point to an equivalent address: twitter.com/JCog_/status/1469425040886276099?s=20
i've never understood adding lag to old games, emulating them so its consistent with speedrun times, sure. but when it comes with a big of a problem like this i mean what the hell
Many old console games were explicitly coded around the exact performance and instructions of their original hardware. It's going to matter for a lot of them. You don't want gameplay, cutscenes and sound being ran too quickly, and you ESPECIALLY don't want several bits of gameplay in particular desynchronized. Obviously, the problem lies with the emulator rather with the ROMs, but fans often didn't know the intricacies of older hardware and companies are under pressure to make money and may not have the right to certain licensed hardware any longer, thus the little ROM-specific hacks here and there.
@@CarbonRollerCaco I hate the fact they did the lag but understand why: Making a n64 accurate emulator is hard, but heck, they have a lot of manpower, but is too expensive to dedicate that, I bet this is some emulator on github + some switch specific stuff
@@nadadada3938 youd be right. this is a mildly upgraded version of the SM3DAS N64 Emulator. theres a whole video on the history of Nintendo emulation. youd probably be surpised just how long theyve been doing it, and sad with how far it fell
These services aren't meant for Speedrunning.
Nes lag in kirby dreamland slows my longplay of it so mucj sometimes that despite my knowledge of the game, for instance it lagged out during boss rush cause for some reason, Mr.Bright firing off sunrays kills a lot of fps and it led me to defeating Mr.Shine whereupon the game lagged out so much that somehow despite me dashing left to avoid Mr.Bright like i usually do, a star from jis rays hit me and well..killed my boss rush run.
I always thought the game crashed near the end of the game over because of the music, so I think it's funny that it does sometimes crash on this awful port.
Nintendo adding lag and crashes to old games that never had those issues: *my goals are beyond your understanding*
Beyond *your* understanding maybe.
This sounds like a classic case of a race condition based on the fact that you can remove unrelated code and it starts working. I have a feeling that they added the lag to try to avoid various race conditions.
The only explanation I could come up with is that maybe on an older version of the emulator, the game did crash, so they added hacks to fix it... and then the emulator fixed the root issue, but nobody dared remove the (now obsolete) hacks, especially since the hacks usually fixed glitches introduced by other hacks and so removing only *some* of them made things worse.
I appreciate the background fight with 420 coins, 69 star points, and finishes by landing a "Nice!" Attack
NA port might not be crashing on debug Switch firmware. Would explain why it was not caught if it was a quick and dirty port
"Tell me if this sounds familiar. You're playing Paper Mario on your Nintendo Switch."
Nope, not familiar at all. I knew a subpar service when I saw it and this is just more evidence towards the fact. Thank you for this.
Wow, Nintendo's standards for games are awful. This shouldn't have been hard to notice.
The fact NSO doesn't store the save file till after you close the App is absolutely stupid and unforgivable as this means any crash will cost players hours of progress and we are still in a pandemic meaning people playing for many hours is more common.
Since it is based on us closing the App it might be possible to lose your save through power outages or internet outages.
OK, I'll test this. Don't have the expansion, but it SHOULD work with the normal one too.
Edit: That was really easy to test. Even if the internet goes down WHILE you're in the software, you'll still be allowed to play. So it's only crashes that would do that.
OK, 2 things:
1: A power outage doesn't prevent the switch from running
2: Even if it did, it would fall under "turning the switch off", which would be fine.
The reason why the emulator doesn't flush save data to the device until you close the app is because the programmers of yesteryear usually did some really silly stuff.
Programmers often used SRAM as a scratchpad when memory was limited, so SRAM would get written to very often during gameplay. That's obviously no longer the case anymore with modern devices, but modern devices DO have flash memory which has a limited number of writes. So if the emulator flushed save data anytime SRAM was written to, old games that are guilty of this could kill sectors of the flash memory REALLY quick.
The reason it waits until the app closes to flush the save data is because it's assumed there should be no more writing to SRAM happening at that point. I'm not sure if Paper Mario actually uses SRAM as a scratchpad, but note that this emulator is designed to be used with many games where programmers of those old games definitely didn't follow the same conventions.
@@y0shiness so couldn't they have just used the lua script they used for other stuff to detect flags related to saving and flush the sram then?
@@y0shiness They could have added a lua script entry to detect game saves and then flushes SRAM. They could have also maybe added something like a watchdog timer that will flush the SRAM when it hasn't been written to after a certain amount of time, in addition to the shutdown flush. Maybe after 30 seconds to a minute or two. Would be the best of both worlds, saving flash writes, but also saving in case of crashes. Perhaps, for games with larger SRAMs, could have even implemented something that only flushes _changes_ in the SRAM to save on flash writes, as I think larger games still had less than 1 megabyte of SRAM. But any of that would take actually giving a darn on Nintendo's part.
I was somewhat considering getting the expansion pass maybe regret not asking for it for Christmas but this video convinced me I made the right choice.
Same like holy crap this is a huge rip off
@@jaxsterminator8634 But it is
One of the most weirdly broken N64 games on an already broken online service is a recipe for disaster lol
Thanks so much for covering this. I'm glad we have more information since my reddit post a few weeks ago.
If things keep up at this point for the paper Mario franchise, eventually a certain prideful bee, keen-eyed beetle, and mysterious undead moth will have carry on the flattened plumber’s bustling legacy.
There will be far more than just them soon enough.
Can't remember which that one is
BUG FABLES!!! Thank you for reminding me I need to play more of that game
@@ferritemage oh interesting ill check it out
**the legend (deltarune) intensifies**
This really opened my eyes to just how bad the N64 emulation is on Switch. I thought the Ocarina of Time texture errors were the worst it got, but this? Artificial lag in places where it isn't necessary? In-game save files not being permanently preserved until app shutdown while external save states get preserved immediately? A game crash caused by extremely specific and easy-to-replicate circumstances that can potentially wipe your entire save? This same crash only existing in specific region versions of the game? This is abhorrent. Glad I didn't spend the money on the NSO Expansion.
This makes me dread the inevitable implementation of other consoles. If Nintendo can't even get N64 emulation right, I fear how they'd screw up Gamecube or Wii emulation, if those ever get added.
N64 is a nightmare to emulate correctly because of its weird architecture. GC and Wii are more straightforward, though still not trivial.
@@wompastompa3692 Apparently was there Emulator on Wii arguably better so I don't know if this should be taken as an excuse for why it runs to poorly on Switch.
I don't like how he stares into my soul for the entire video
This happened to me after I lost in the General Guy fight. Was thrown right back to the end of the first dungeon. Luckily I had a suspend point after the Tubba Blubba fight otherwise I would’ve stopped playing.
the fact that Watt is (i dont really know if she is or not) required in the General Guy fight makes these crashes even more plausible
Watt isn't really required, but she definitely makes General Guy easier due to her attacks ignoring Defense. That's why General Guy accuses you of cheating in war when you use her. lol
My favorite fact about all this that I didn't mention is that I haven't seen a single report of someone getting a crash after dying to Huff. Huff is also immune to Watt's attacks. 🤔🤔🤔
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why on god's green earth one would deliberately make a pre-existent, perfectly fine product _worse._ Without all the hacks it runs just like a normal game should! :/
I'm probably not gonna be returning to Nintendo's works for a while.
I'd say money, but I don't see how this gives Nintendo ANY advantage. Maybe if they plan to release a paid Bugfix DLC, but if they did that surely they'd finally be done for, so that can't be it... right?
Oh what if they're holding themselves open for the option of making a standalone "remake" for full price at some point? Then they can point to how native performance is better than the Expansion's laggy mess to trick people into buying it!
Perhaps there's a different bug they accounted for by adding lag, which the community still hasn't discovered yet. I mean, it's not like there's that many other possibilities- adding lag really doesn't seem to benefit nintendo in any way
So you're gonna skip BotW2 because of bad emulation?
Sounds like Warcraft 3 Reforged all over again [lookin at you Blizzard]
It’s incredible how people in the speed running community can know more about game code and memory and console hardware than me, and I’m a software engineer (albeit without any expertise in games)
Great investigation! If only the bugs filed for me had this much information!
My 6 year old has been playing all week. He used sushi's ultra attack on flaming piranha in the volcano while both smaller ones were out and while the 2... Seed things were out as well. Game crashed when damage was dealt, loaded the game and he was back in goomba village at the beginning of the game. I watched the whole thing unfold and he's pretty upset. He was at like 20 hours or so. Pretty sucky situation.
The animations appear much faster.
My theory to why they added the script was clock speed.
There emulator runs too fast, so certain aspects jitter and flicker. Hence the manual lag scripts.
No idea why they did that though, instead of capping emulation clock speed.
Maybe because it would affect other games and they just don’t know how to stop that lol
Full speed's probably needed elsewhere, plus these ROMs seem to be the same ones that the Wii U uses from what's been suggested elsewhere in this comment section.
@@CarbonRollerCaco no, the N64 Emulator on Wii U is more accurate, and they have a dark filter.
My mom loves the Paper Mario games, but she is not an avid gamer. When she got a game over when she fought General Guy and her game crashed, her save file completely disappeared. Luckily I had told her about the save states, and onlly lost about an hour of gameplay, but that was about a week ago, and she still hasn't forgiven the game. I personally had my game crash by hitting a small tree in Shiver City, and I lost an entire day of gameplay (about five hours).
The fact hurts the most is that Watt is the only viable partner to fight Bowser, so pretty much everyone who lost to Bowser got the crash.
@DarkCoreX I had no idea the Paper Mario community was this elitist. people are playing this game for the first time, they’re gonna die with watt in a lot of different scenarios. This is a huge problem.
Imagine if in Dark Souls 1, dying while using the Drake Sword caused a crash that deleted your save file. Sure, the Drake Sword isn’t a very good weapon, and most people would only use it in very early game scenarios where nothing is lost, but that’s still a massive problem. Especially for newer players following guides online.
@DarkCoreX I know Final Bowser is easy, but that 2 defense makes most casual players use Watt
If I recall Watt ignores defense so people might be compelled to pull him out the most
Really? I guess I’m a god because I almost never used. Watt during the entire playthrough ( I didn’t know he pierced defence). I did die once on the final boss though
0:20 i was watching this on my switch, and fell for that
I literally played this game on my android phone with a emulator when i was a kid, and the save files on there were more safe, hell I beat the whole game on there. Hell, it had LESS lag, so it's even better, pathetic.
Got to say that they did a great job to emulate a console game on a phone. It was a really great experience
This happened to me the first weekend of its release on NSO. I played the second day for 8 hrs straight. Error occurred-save GONE. I use save points every 5 min now hahaha.
I have actually had it crash even though I saved multiple times. I been saving, then exiting out of the game and then re-enter
Imma be honest, I kept creating drafts (save points) and went to that save point if I died or was doing bad, but I actually managed to beat the general guy boss first try without resetting. And I was aware of how difficult it was, considering I first played this game as a kid on an emulator.
Thanks for showing Nintendo exactly why console modifications do not necessarily equal piracy. Sometimes you really have to be able to modify a game to play properly.
In my home we own multiple copies of Mario Kart 8, but because there's no volume control in the game and because the music doesn't synchronize at all we also play on modified consoles where we remove the music file entirely. Otherwise it just doesn't play properly side-by-side with multiple TVs. And that's a minor issue compared to having to outright edit the code of the game just to make it work properly like you had to do.
Maybe Nintendo should go back to pirating emulators. At least the scene dumps actually work.
They never downloaded scene roms. They hired the person who made iNES headers to make the official NES emulator in Animal Crossing, so he put the same headers on the official roms.
@@DarkLink1996. That's a commonly repeated myth. The header they used in the ROM files specifically came from an emulator that requires a commercial license to use in a commercial capacity and Nintendo does not have that license. There are claims they hired him later, but no claims that they actually purchased a license.
Although, to be more precise, the iNES headers are manually added during the dumping process with information about the game cart according to community standards. They aren't automatically generated with them, but the emulators do require them to recognize the game. There's no reason for Nintendo to use them if they generated a new dump themselves unless they were using a copy of scene emulation software which required the headers. Even if they copied the iNES header system and had to use a header they wouldn't have to copy the same exact headers from scene dumps if they were going to dump their own.
Of course, hypothetically speaking, if they did hire that guy to make a new emulator, but they downloaded scene dumps to use with it, that still supports the idea that Nintendo financially benefits from piracy. Logically speaking why would Nintendo go through all the trouble to make a new dump of an old game only to make the files identical to what's on the internet unnecessarily?
Based on everything I read I believe that they pirated scene dumps. They likely said to themselves, "It's not piracy because it's ours, we can give ourselves written permission to copy it" which is absolutely true, but they don't own the ROM files.
Let's put it another way : suppose I invented some new technology to take a windows program installer and I catch the installation Within he's special singular file type such that I could load the game up on a newer systems without having a mess with missing system files and such. Now let's suppose I released that technology to the public free for use non-commercially, but required that companies obtain a license if they want to commercial use it. Now let's say that someone who used my technology in a non commercial capacity shared an old game processed by such a technology and then the company that originally made the game decided to take that file and sell it. That company would be committing piracy because even though they owned the game they don't own the technology for running the game. Or to put it another way, that would be a bit like if you owned the game Minesweeper and you decided to sell it on Windows 3.1 disks that happens to include the entire Windows operating system but argue that it's okay because you hired Bill Gates once. That's not okay.
Nintendo and their treatment to og paper Mario is legendary at this point.
Update: with the release of Majora's mask on Nintendo switch online not only did they fix the crashing with Watt, but they also fix the fog of certain games so now the shadow link room in the water temple is completely fixed
Oh guys, you just have to go into the settings and turn off permadeath, sometimes it auto turns on so you just have to go to the settings, and click “delete all save data”
All this has done has justified my refusal to invest in Switch Online...what an utter disgrace, Nintendo.
11:31 I remember that some day around 2019 I was playing kirby's adventure on nes online and was aiming for a 100% savefile, I had only one hit left for the final boss (won't name it for spoilers reasons, but y'know who I'm talking about, no, not dedede), but a random crash happened and my savefile just vanished, I appeared right back into level 4, there goes a whole afternoon of playing, I wish I have that amount of free time again, I'm still stuck there since I haven't played because of that
really informative video, great work jcog!! really amazing how fast this was figured out. go pape community!
Boy, I really hope someone got fired for that blunder.
oh goodness i hadn't closed my Nintendo online app in DAYS. so glad this showed up on my suggestions and thanks for the pinned message about the update still not fixing it.
Why would they add a piece of code? Isn't porting/emulation letting the script as it is?
Nintendo is so late for emulation.
They have a scripting language that lets them apply various hacks to help fix game-specific issues the emulator might have. However, they've messed up and they've also added issues in these cases. I'm not sure the last sentence is supposed to mean though. They've been doing emulation quite well since the Wii.
@@バオバイバー I wasn't aware emulation existed on Wii. Or doesn't know the word Emulation yet.
@@zigaudrey The virtual console games are run via emulation.
@@zigaudrey Didn't Animal Crossing Gamecube have NES emulation? They've been doing it for a while
@@animeFXnstuff Bruh the N64 can emulate NES the NES is so old its easy to emulate, its not a fair comparison
I didn't know who you were, and idk if I'll watch more videos, but I watched the whole thing and was thoroughly interested throughout. Great job!
"Tell me if this sounds familiar: You just played Paper Mario..." What paper mario "...on your Nintendo Switch" What Switch
Thank you for the detail, I'm working on a paper mario let's play soon and I will def make a note of these and credit this video. Thanks so much!
Saving worked the same way on Wii VC, if memory serves. Difference is that's a functioning emulator :)
That chair back with that hat looks like a nun's habit from a 1980s TV show.
Nintendo just doesn't give a shit about it's old game library anymore. -_-
And then they wonder why everyone pirates it.
Excellent video and quite thorough. Arguably the best video on Paper Mario’s issues on Switch since launch.
Paper mario (and the possibility of perhaps getting the Thousand Year Door added later) was the only reason I regretted not getting this package deal on the switch.
Knowing that yet again it's all a wash because Nintendo doesn't Care, makes me feel better, and points me towards those that do: Emulators
I will definitely be getting a Paper Mario cartridge for my N64 and probably with Wii U virtual console version too, but emulators are definitely great! I don’t want to support the trash switch online has become and there was no other way I would be able to play a different game, Yoshis Island, so I got an emulator and got to enjoy the true experience! Nintendo appears to be intentionally breaking their games on their switch online service to make them look bad and I don’t trust it one bit.
#hail coyote hills,drastic,crono snes
@@jaxsterminator8634
No, those who have 'paid' attention clearly know Nintendo (and pokemon) don't care
@@jaxsterminator8634 like I said.
@DarkCoreX it's not unfortunate when those roms have more care and attention than the inferior versions that Nintendo is trying to make people pay for again. Their tactics thus far have been disgusting
I watched this video before but never noticed your timer in the stream layout, and now it's fucking with me beyond measure
Everything on switches online needs fixing and updating. I'm actually thankful I've not gotten the N64+Sega emus from the switch online yet.
I don't know if this was mentioned by anyone, but in regards to the intentional lag on the lava piranha fight, it's probably an accessibility measure. When the piranha takes damage, it shakes extremely rapidly (as can be seen in the segment at the end of the video), and perhaps the developers who implemented the hack thought that this rapid movement was problematic and perhaps potentially seizure-inducing, so the added lag slows this movement down and makes it less jarring for those more susceptible. That's the only legitimate reason I can see for adding lag. As for the other areas where this was done, I have no idea what their intent was.
You know, you're actually the first person to suggest that, and after talking with some others about it, I think this is our primary theory now, at least for this instance. It certainly makes the change much more reasonable as accessibility in games is objectively a good thing. Assuming this is the case though, they're really throwing out the baby with the bathwater considering how negatively this affects gameplay. It also doesn't explain why it was only done on the US release.
@@JCog Yeah those are definitely fair points. It's very much a band-aid approach to addressing an accessibility concern if that was their actual intent. While it does mitigate the concern, it comes at the cost of the gameplay experience as you said, and it also just looks extremely strange when the actual reasoning for this is unknown. On top of that, it is definitely even more strange that NTSC-J and PAL versions don't have these same patches (if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am). I know there are version differences between each version of the game, but I would imagine that same fight sequence plays out the same across all three versions, so one would think the same patch would be applied to all three, but it seems that it's just not, and the reasons for that are unknown and not at all clear.
It also doesn't explain the other instances, but those could just as easily be for entirely separate reasons (ones that elude all of us), but I still don't quite understand why they bothered in those other spots.
Possibly they were also worried about the game over letters causing seizures too.
@@ShyGuy. it's possible, but I'm not familiar enough with the game over sequence to be able to comment on that. Only reason I mentioned lava piranha was because the footage in the video was definitely enough to get a sense for how the battle plays out and why or how it could potentially be problematic
The Pause Menu occupies the whole screen, and when you change tabs, it flips over and changes colour. Even on laggy pause screens, it's kinda uncomfortable for me to look at and I'm not even epileptic.
All of the sh*t Nintendo did straight up OUTRAGES ME, How could they do such thing?
I actually knew about Jerk being a derivative of Acceleration. Didn't know about Snap tho. That's so interesting.
So wait, they don't have the emulator configs that was used on Wii VC, and instead added configs that... Serve no known purpose?
Intentionally making it bad, perhaps? To say, "Hey, this game was never good, go play Origami King instead."
@@Wiimeiser The fact that they added code that lags the game on purpose where it works perfectly fine without it is pretty messed up. It’s already messed up they’re making it so the game lags in the first place instead of fixing issues like this to make the experience the most enjoyable it can be. It makes me suspicious, more than I’ve already been, that they’re intentionally making these problems that shouldn’t exist. It really seems thats what theyre doing now, pushing out older games in a broken or inconvientient way, going as far as to label their sort of broken ports of SM64, Super Mario Sunshine and SMG as 3D all stars even though the original all stars was really well made remakes of older games, then trashing it like those older games meant nothing. They once did care about their older games clearly. Even virtual console, at least on my 3DS, worked really well and let me play the games without a subscription cost. But now it feels like they want those games to look much lesser to their newer stuff and want to lower expectations or something. I always prefer their older games to their new stuff as of now, and them making a mockery out of their amazing, incredible older games isn’t gonna change my mind. This is just my opinion by the way, but origami king is pretty boring so far and theres nothing convincing me to continue even if it gets better.
Im trying to get a Paper Mario 64 cartridge now since I saw it being played and it looks so much more interesting! A lot of them are available so I might get one soon! As for switch online, I am definitely avoiding any of it, it is not for me and would be a real waste of my money, especially with these intentionally and sadly broken games…
@@Lizuma Maybe someone should try asking Nintendo how accurate the NSO ports are. Their response would be very telling...
The wii uses a powerpc cpu and an ati gpu that are very different than the tegra x1 in the switch. There isn't much that can be taken from wii vc.
@@craftyawesome6830 graphics cards have nothing to do with emulation. The cpu matters way more. N64 games are so low spec an iPhone 4 can play them just fine
Well, the Majora's Mask update seems to have fixed this glitch, it's still infuriating that this glitch went unfixed for as long as it did.
I too have been a victim of Nintendo’s intentional sub-standard game design. I lost my entire save file after dying to the Lava Piranha Plant… that was a lot of progress. 😣
Back when N64 Online was released, I was already pretty skeptical about it, given some of its issues. This only makes things seem worse. I'm glad I bought Paper Mario on Wii U VC a while back, even if it isn't the best version. At least I know I can play with Watt and *not* lose data due to a crash
For the part where you mentioned it crashes but only saves game once you hit the save block and then actually exit the app. Its not even just for NSO 64. Its for N64 games in general just as mentioned in your video! I have tested this with OOT and other N64 games via CFW switch as roms running through retroarch. If they crash and you never exited the game after saving. Boom tons of hours lost. Like a computer program that doesn't actually save until you terminate successfully lol. Why this happens only for N64 games baffles me and it encourages people to use save states more. 3DS games no need to worry. Can just save normally and it actually completes the save. N64 though you gotta be very careful which sucks :(. Almost like a very stringy buggy code man!
Glad I saw this. Was about to start playing this game.
So basically, don't keep the app open unnecessarily (something I don't do anyway), make use of save states, and if I see it's about to happen and I didn't get to save prior and close the app, just close it myself before it can crash and reload from my last save. Got'cha. I suppose there's also Option D, as in Don't use Watt, but that seems unfair to the little tyke.
I did toy train early, got to General Guy, died and it reverted my save to just after getting the toy train. I was honestly confused. Also normal crashes on switch online freeze paper mario(like the double dip egg bomb on lava piranha crash), but allow you to reset the game with minus. But this crashes the entire software, weird...
Edit: This is your first video with 100k views, congrats.
I think it's because most crashes we've seen are properly handled by the game. Usually with the freeze it's actually an infinite loop because the music will still normally play (meaning the game IS running). The new issues we see are due to extra code added in that isn't exception-handled at all. So when it can't handle it, you get the hard crash (fatal).
@@Co2Outbr3ak Oh yeah, you're probably right.
also for what it's worth, Double Dip Egg Missile against LP crashes in inconsistent ways on Switch. sometimes it does what you said where it lets you reset the game still. but if you leave it for long enough, it'll eventually fully lock up and you'll have to close the NSO app manually, which will then make it crash. other times it just locks up immedately lol.
I knew it! I knew I didn't forget to save the game! Ever since I had to replay the whole shy guy toybox part I was wondering whether I was just being dumb again and forgot to save the game but this confirms that I didn't! Thanks
Maybe I missed it but did you explain why Watt's idle animation crashes the game?
We don't know, it's some jank related to the added lag.
I did, but all we really know is that it's some bad interaction between the added lag and Watt's electricity effect.
I'm 1000% sure SOMEONE on the internet is going to defend this and say that Nintendo did nothing wrong and "just don't use Watt" or "get good."
While I agree that this is a mistake, this is a product that people are paying EXTRA money for, and they can just have their entire save deleted. TBH if that happened to me, I'd NEVER play the game again, and I'd feel cheated out of my money in a way. (This is all on top of the plethora of other issues the service has btw)
Alt title: More reasons to not buy the Expansion Pack
Never encountered this glitch, thank goodness. By the time I got Watt I was leveled enough to not die, and I didn’t use Watt much compared to others
Okay, but why does that one tree in shiver city crash the game then?
That's actually a bug in the original game, but the developers just got lucky and the N64 happens to execute the garbage code it creates without crashing due to a quirk of the N64. It's hard to blame the devs for not catching that one. More info here: twitter.com/MrCheeze_/status/1473398636222586880?t=cC7W95Va_QSSNwJY6j9fWQ&s=19
There's alot of things that can crash paper mario
Ex (i think) double egg bombing the laval piranha boss
@@samuellamoureux977 P r e t t y s u r e I k n o w t h a t .
I was able to 100% complete this game on the switch NSO thanks for this video! Thank you for sharing this and the tree glitch in your pinned comments. Avoiding this tree and Watt game over screens, allowed me to beat the game with 0 issues