How Save States Change Super Mario Bros. (NES)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 เม.ย. 2024
- After introducing Super Mario Bros (NES) to my friend using Nintendo Switch Online he said that he thought the game was unfair, and he didn't like it. I wanted to know why, so I replayed the game on the Switch and realized that it was the save states.
All My Side Projects and Socials - allmylinks.com/sethhaskell
0:00 - Replay-ability is a Feature
1:30 - Gameplay Paradigm Loop
5:36 - Exploring is REQUIRED
6:15 - Paradigm Loop Progression
6:57 - Save State Changes
8:25 - Conclusion - เกม
![[실시간] 전철에서 찍힌 기생생물 감염 장면 | 기생수: 더 그레이](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4nkFvwxGAfA/mqdefault.jpg)
The highlight of this video for me is the "Gameplay Paradigm Loop", definitely something I'm going to keep in mind, maybe even apply that to other facets of my life outside of video games. Players, reviewers, and developers need to look past initial gameplay experience when playing / evaluating / designing a game. Also like how you delved into save states breaking the intended experience of the original game. Great explanations and examples.
Thanks. it took me a while to organize my thoughts into the "gameplay paradigm loop"
There is some merit to look into “fractal nature” of design.
Learning and teaching is fractal. We learn in bits and pieces and put them together creating the mosaic of our understanding
@@SethHaskell Games at the time had very small memory, so sharp increase in difficulty was necessary for players to continue playing the game, even at the cost of repeating playing the same levels again and again. Games were indeed made to be fun in that repeating process, the player challenge being to go as far as possible rather than actually finishing the game. Many games of the time didn't even have a proper ending, but a "high scores" system instead. And indeed, that "paradigm loop" is well-spotted as showing how we could have different playing experience despite playing the same levels, thus enjoying the fun of it.
@@SethHaskell I feel it depends on the game. SMB is well done and the difficulty level is perfect so save states aren't needed; some other retro games however, like Shadoman on PS1 with janky controls can be redeemed with save states and keymapping. Or even NES Battletoads with an impossible level of difficulty, or Ghosts & Goblins. I don't think it's black or white. If save states make an otherwise unplayable or uncompletable game playable, then yes they serve the devs original purpose, as playing and enjoying their game vs not at all is their intended purpose.
I agree, that is why this video is just on Super Mario Bros. 🙂
Definitely like the idea of the gameplay paradigm loop. That being said, not every NES game was as well designed or thought out as Super Mario Bros. to the point where it's perfectly playable and enjoyable in 2022 without any save states whatsoever.
If i had to mention one, i'd say Castlevania 1 wasn't as well designed, since some parts were still unfair even if you learned them, Death and Frankenstein were one of them.
@@somefries3101 the original had a save system which helped cause you only had to repeat the same level.
I agree with you, but think it is important to note that "Nintendo" might be the author because these paradigms as they are very prominent in many of their games. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and many others are games that tend to teach you how to play as you play them. As someone who grew up in the first years of Nintendo... there are few games today that match the expectations that the original games could deliver. One Great example is Super Metroid. It is a timeless classic in my opinion for this very reason. The second play through is more fun than the 1st. When a game can do that... it is a well constructed game. Bonus points for being able to keep and hold entertainment value for repeat or extended playthrough. A game like Terraria is a super fantastic example.
When I was in college, one of the projects I did was a study on video game difficulty. I got a friend to whip together a really crappy shoot-em-up game in Flash. By design, it wasn't anything special, just functional, but the difficulty did get pretty tricky. The game had 20 levels, with a checkpoint every 4 levels. If you lost all your lives, you were forced back to the last checkpoint.
Group A was told to play the game and try to beat it, and were given a maximum of 80 minutes to do so.
Group B was also told to play the game and try to beat it in 80 minutes, but they were given access to a cheat code that gave them unlimited lives. They were told that since the game is in beta, they could activate the cheat code whenever they found the game too unreasonably hard.
Upon the end of the session, both groups were asked to rate the game's difficulty (on a scale from "too easy" to "too hard"), as well as the sound effects, graphics, controls, fun factor, and overall quality of the game.
The results were quite significant. Group A rated the game as much more fun, and the difficulty as much more reasonable, and they even gave it slightly higher scores in presentation. Group B rated the game as too hard, less fun, and overall lower in quality. Now for the twist: here, I'm only talking about the members of Group B who used the cheat code. Those who never used the cheat code (which was like 15% of them), even if they didn't beat the game, gave scores that were more or less consistent with Group A!
Imagine that! Mastering a game makes it more fun?? No way!
Fascinating, thanks for the read!
There's always a balance though telling people to master kazio mario is a joyless experience
Although in Super Mario Bros, they reward you for finding the secret warp room by advancing you ahead, in The Lost levels, they punish you by sending you backwards to previous worlds. This tended to make some players afraid to explore certain pipes or vines
Lost Levels is on par design wise with bad Mario maker levels.
Lost Levels is a complete juxtaposition to this game's design in that it wasn't made for anyone except Super Players...just people who were "Mastery" or just wanted to learn mechanics were now being punished. Instead of Miyamoto's philosophy behind teaching the player how to improve and feel better, and the Gameplay Paradigm Loop was well designed, Tezuka drove more of the sequel and believed it was purely for the Super Players who mastered the original. He explicitly admitted that. Instead of levelling up in the loop, you are always cautious and exploring in the end, albeit limited in exploring now sadly because of fear of consequences.
Dang this has got to be my favorite video so far. I love the depth analysis of how games were designed based on the time.
I think this has been my best work so far. I'm very proud of this Journal Entry!
I was fortunate enough to grow up with Nintendo as my babysitter in the 80s & 90s. I was digging thru the old NES games on my Switch last night and it brought back so many memories. Told myself I was going to reconquer them all over again. That's how I came across your video.
Sonic was like this, too. I remember first playing it with our friends. We would take turns playing and got so good at playing them that we eventually had to cut our time down to just one level each, or else we could play all the way thru before our turn was over. 🎮
On emulator I beat TMNT with little trouble, something I never did as a kid. Even the swimming first try without using a save state. It's definitely a different experience entirely. The pressure of losing a half hour of progress on the original, the extra lives or health with even minimal use of save states, it doesn't take much to really tip the difficulty and experience of a lot of these old games.
A big factor of NES hard is that you had to get it all right the first try or you get sent back to the beginning.
This video is just great. Your thesis goes a long way towards explaining why I know near every secret in the game but have trouble introducing it to people who have never played it. :P
Not to mention, your presentation and editing style is bursting with personality and charm. Great work!
I'm so glad you relate to the video! My youngest brother is 10 years younger than me and it's always interesting for me and him to compare notes on how we experience things differently because of that 10 year gap. That was part of the reason behind this video!
@@SethHaskell That's honestly a super wholesome inspiration! It's awesome you and your brother are able to bond like that. I like to share games with my nieces so maybe I should ask them about their mentality when approaching a game of this vintage. Thanks for the idea. :D
Great video, and great description of how re-playing the same levels works. It seems to be a fundamental design thing now that if the player beats a level, they shouldn't have to play it again, so a gameplay loop where the player has to re-do the same level over and over doesn't really seem to be a thing anymore. Even earlier re-makes of Super Mario Bros (like Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario Deluxe) introduced saving and level select, fundamentally bypassing the need to re-play the same stages so often.
Thanks! The 2D Mario team still makes their stages around exploring, but instead of relying on the player replaying the stage because of a game over now they hide collectables like green stars in the stage. I like this change much better than restarting the game after a game over.
Now I understand more as to why I stuck on 2-2 in the lost levels on Super Mario All Stars!
This is very interesting, and very true. Something that came to mind was that Mario 35 also forces you to learn or relearn these little secrets. Serious bummer that game isn't around anymore.
I really really miss that game. #BringBackMario35
My first experiencing super Mario bros was the arcade version. I was immediately hooked. Great video dude.
Thank you, you've just explained why I love SMB and the SMB series sooo much. The paradigm loop applies to basically every 2D Mario game. It's true, it really does have an arcade feeling to it. I love getting game overs, gradually becoming better, finding hidden blocks and warp zones, and slowly becoming a master at the game without the help of the internet. game's just aren't made like this anymore. once a game becomes too big, the replayability kinda dies a little, for me.
I will ALWAYS replay SMB on my NES and I still keep finding new hidden stuff:)
thank u for understanding 🙏
After watching the video, I decided to go ahead and properly beat SMB, no save states, no warp zones, no A button on the menu. After going through all eight worlds, I was on the final level, 3 lives.
I had gone through the game with save states recently, so I remembered the layout quickly, I got to Bowser, and died. I was worried, 2 more lives. I got to Bowser, again, faster this time. Died again.
I was now on my last life, if I died, the past 8 worlds would've been for nothing. With my Heart racing, sweat on my controller, I went through that level one more time. And Miraculously, I got lucky at Bowser and beat the game. Man, I haven't felt so good in game in SO LONG. the lack of save states made the experience so much more engaging. And it felt, really good man
I play stupidly hard games all the time, the more stakes in the game. The more engaged you are. And as such, for me personally, the game improved significantly without save states.
Nah man, if you die at world 8, just hold A before starting again… it sets you right back at 8-1. Seeing how few people know this makes me thankful for the manual
@@DoomKid I directly specified in the comment that I vowed not to do that.
Nice job, I definitely learned something new about game design today and I think That 8 bit games might just be getting a new lease on life in my eyes. Thanks!
I'm glad you liked it, I'm not going to excuse all NES games, but the good ones really take into account how much the player is going to replay it when they make their game. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
On the SNES and Wii, there were also remakes of the 4 Super Mario Bros. games on Super Mario All Stars, each adding the ability to save the world you were on.
Yes, I been looking into those, my big take away so far is that players who play on these still learn to explore through repetition, but they usually miss finding things like warp rooms. But I'm still looking into that.
The original version already have a code to start on the world you game over'd on, it's nothing new.
@@Ron_BWL Yes, there was that, but the original games were on the NES which didn't save. The SNES was able to. On the NES version, the world you were on was only stored in the RAM, so when you shut down the game, you would be sent back to world 1-1 even if you pressed A+Start. All-Stars was on the SNES, so when you turned off your console and went back in, it would remember the world you were on.
Really well explained.
I recently bought Super Mario All Stars and noticed the same thing. Although it has different physics which just add to the discrepancy.
Great video. You did a good job explaining the difference in the experience and what some people are missing out on.
Thanks, I'm glad that it came across in the video.
Well put. When emulation first came along in the late 90s I was finally able to beat games with relative ease due to save states that I didn't make time for back in the day.
That's how I was final able to beat Ninja Gaiden after years of getting my butt kicked on the final stage.
Just subbed based on this video. It was very well put, and you have a very calming and intelligent speaking style. Look forward to visiting your past catalog and future vids. Keep up the awesome work.
Thanks for the kind words, I hope you enjoy the rest of the videos.
While save states have certainly made it easier to cheat, the option to do so in Super Mario Bros. has been there since the beginning. The ability to restart in the same world after dying by holding A while pressing start was well-known even back in the 1980s, to say nothing of what you could do with a Game Genie. Any book of Nintendo tips and tricks from the era was also guaranteed to spoil the locations of the warp zones as well.
You just gained your 500th subscriber!
I think most 80s kids played SMB to the point where they had some without dying or warping, same thing without ever losing fire power, same thing as small Mario, and rolled over the point counter during gameplay. Then tried to do all of it in the second quest. Very different era.
Good stuff, some very insightful thoughts!
Brilliant breakdown! Thanks!!
Great insight and explanation.
It's not just SMB, the ability to save the game at any time really lowers the difficulty of pretty much every NES game
I agree, I working on a video like this for Mega Man.
The part about the gameplay paradigm loop is definitely very interesting, and I definitely recognize at least the cautious, planned and brute force modes as something I do, even if I've never really consciously thought about it enough to actually come up with a name for it. It's something I've always just thought of as a natural part of playing games, so fundamental that there was no need to really dissect it scientifically.
That said, when it comes to savestates (and similar features like quicksave as well, depending on the type of game), I feel like for me at least, the reason why they make pretty much any game less enjoyable to play it because they completely break the flow of the game and turn every minor failure into a jarring annoyance rather than a learning experience. In some specific genres, most notably RPGs with deep dialogue systems to explore, something like a quicksave function is practically mandatory, but for the vast majority of games - and especially action-oriented games, it's a misfeature that should not exist and should be "designed away" in favor of better systems like save points (Metroid, etc) or checkpoints.
This is an excellent video. If I were a professor of game design, I would be showing this to my students.
Really cool analysis!
Extremely interesting point of view, explanation and video! Liked and subbed!
The interesting thing for me is that i played SMB on a Famiclone without save states or rewind. It was the 1990s when i also had no access to the internet in my country and i still got stuck at one of the maze levels which i was only able/had the patience to reach 2-3 times as a 10-15 years old. So i had only about ten attempts at it. I would get too excited and lose in a stupid way at the beginning but then i had a theory in my later attempts that it was just an extremely long level that i had to race extremely fast and perfectly from beginning to end like a formula 1 Mario. I couldn't pull that off in my few attempts to see if it would do the trick. I ended up playing other games or slowly experimenting in the earlier levels but never had the patience to make it back to the maze levels again.
It was not until 2020 and the emulation times when I thought I would give super Mario Bros another try when I made it to the maze levels I was stuck again and when I looked it up on the internet I was just mind blown that there is such a game mechanic in this game. Good Times. Brilliant game. Thanks for the cool video and many apologies for lengthy comment! 🙂
Thanks for the story!
@@SethHaskell And thank you for the comment! Have a beautiful day / evening my friend! 🙂
I like that. There is something to be said about how games were made and how they were originally played. Many people have a hard time playing these older games, go bsck further, to atari, and people really lose comprehension.
It blows my mind to think about today’s generation only now just discovering the original Super Mario Bros on the Switch. Makes me feel old lol
Anybody else notice as he reached the part about how brute force players would see the game as unfair because they didn't explore note the other way the game was unfair AS he was talking about that
(if not, watch the Koopa Shell and the Hammer Bros on the right side in the gameplay window)
I'm glad you noticed, that was intentional. 😁
Great video!
Little known fact: There is an invisible 1-up block at the start of every first level of a world, but you can only make it appear if you collect all the coins in the third level of the previous world. You also have to know where the invisible 1-up block is located. You can make it appear if you used a warp zone though and obviously for 1-1 it's always there (like you can see in this video).
I agree with you that learning the levels and beating the game without save states is the most satisfying way to play. The problem with coins and lives though is that they are a "meta-element" that do not affect the mechanics of the game directly. To a skilled player who doesn't need very many lives to beat the game, coins and lives become increasingly meaningless. In an ideal game the collectibles should also be relevant to high-skilled players as well. Here's one idea to fix this: If you collect all the coins in the third level of a world, you would enter an alternate, more difficult castle stage. If you beat all of the alternate castle stages, a new final world would unlock that is very difficult to beat, but if you do, you get the true ending.
At least coins and lives are still useful in the early Mario games. In many of the later ones they are practically meaningless, which is pretty insulting design to the player. The designers literally kept them for the sake of tradition and did not think enough about the underlying game design.
I believe this was a limitation of the time, in modern or "new" Super Mario games the reward for exploring is a collectable. (star coin, green star) I believe you are right on the money with this critique on coins from the early games, and this is the direction they chose to go in the modern games!
Lets not assume "new is bad, old is good"
Great video. I never understood what the huge deal with the original Mario bros was so I’ve gone to play it on the switch and without save states the game shines so much more. Any game with a lives feature should not be played with saves states (unless it’s just to place-hold the game as you can’t finish that play session). If you use save states in Mario then there is no point in collecting coins and 1ups.
Also, playing all-stars on the SNES you can just restart the game at any world you’ve previously got to - which is just wrong as well. Start from the beginning, work your way through the levels and be careful not to lose all your lives.
I'm so glad that you enjoyed the video. It took me a while to pinpoint this little phenomenon. I'm looking forward to seeing how save stages change some other older games.
Save stating and turning off the console is really just the modern day equivalent of leaving the console on overnight. Why waste energy and electricity (not to mention straining your console) when you can just do that?
@@evan2902 think you missed the point.
great video!
Awesome vid
Good stuff!
i agree with you but i do use save states for when i already mastered most of it or with specific other games (like the megaman games) i learn the ins and outs but save state between the main stages but only save between levels like a save system in a modern game would work and with games like the original metroid i just wing it and try to get as far as i can without savestates
I use save states as well. I usually have a saved state in each Megaman game so that I can start at the Wily stages for practice.
the end of double dragon without an emulator is near impossible. I can make it to machine gun willy pretty consistently without it, but then you fight Jimmy and when you die, it's the whole gauntlet again
It’s one of the most relentless final boss battles for sure !
Definitely not the same taking all that risk out, I agree. I'm still glad Wreckz has an interest in them regardless.
Yes, I find that these older games rely less on reading so my kids can understand and experiment with playing them without relying on me for so much reading. They don't really seem to mind getting a game over either.
@@SethHaskell That makes sense. Wreckz can read pretty well, but when playing games he doesn't really want to. Less interesting than popping something on the head, lol.
This is a great video and a reminder to many that isn't always about the end of the game but the adventure it took to get there. I can beat the original mario with ease. I think many from our generation can, but its only because we had the experience of having to replay these levels OVER and OVER and OVER. Rewind features can help you "get through it" but kind of defeats the point. However: lets be honest. Back then, we maybe had 1-3 games or so at once. These days, we have access to millions of games on virtually every platform. Perhaps we don't need to play something so much to be an expert to enjoy the experience. It's just going to be a lot different. I always say: Play however you want. However, I know I have never beat Mike Tyson on Mike Tyson's Punchout because I only have done so using save states. :)
makes me think of classic resident evil games with mechanics modern players tend to hate. fixed camera angles allowed the backgrounds to look better and allowed for tension of not being able to see everything easily. the controls everyone complains about work well with the fixed camera system, but new players on modern versions of the first game will use the "good" controls and end up fighting the camera angles the whole way through. also the save system. limiting saves the saves was a good design decision that benefitted the puzzle-y nature of the combat and inventory while also limiting how easy it would be for new players to soft lock themselves into a game that could end up far more difficult than intended. it's not perfect. it can lead to frustration with replaying old sections of the game. but being able to brute force things with frequent saving can make for a very different experience than intended. sometimes a worse one
I learned that game inside and out as a kid. Now I use the save states and rewind as tools to enjoy the game casually.
I do the same thing with the Megaman 6, I learned everything about it as a kid but I use save states to practice the boss fights when I get rusty.
@Seth Haskell: their is the right way to used the rewind feature and the wrong way to used the rewind feature, and the save state was mainly to be able to save your game since they are no file save feature. The correct way to used rewind feature, pratice a difficult jump, or pratice doging enemies that are difficult to doge, and also being able to do difficult glitch.
I agree with a lot of this statement. I use save states to practice boss fights in Mega Man
What about saving just to resume the game after? I just don't have the time to play a game more than 1 hour at time
That is how I played Castlevania for the first time.
I dont have an NES, and I wish nintendo would had a setting to turn rewind off. I first learned how to play supper mario bros on the wii, so I definitely went through all these stages (until about world 8-1 was too hard), except, I was shown by my parents where the warp-zones, pipes and one-ups were, but I remember getting to the explore stage, and it was so fun to try and brake every block in 1-2 to see what it might be hiding. when I got the switch and the NES remotes, I immediately started playing SMB and then found the rewind feature. At first i loved it because I could now beat the game, but.. was I really beating it? No. I have always been interested in Smb speed running, so I know the basic strategies. I practiced the easier ones, and some i came up with over and over agin, sometimes with the help of the rewind. I just started trying to beat the game with no rewinds about a month ago for fun, and eventually got a pb of 8:38 but I know I can get sub 7. loved your video!
Here's how you turn rewind off:
1. Don't use it
@@_lunartemis the only thing that's annoying is that in order to leave or reset a game, you have to short press the same buttons that when long pressed, show rewind,
@@Omii_3000 just don't press ZL and ZR it for a long time
This video needs more views.
I had to leave my NES on for weeks as a 9 year old trying to beat SMB3
I mean, on the Switch you have the choice not to use Save States or the reverse thing. So, it can be the same as playing on the NES, just don't use save states, etc. I think also back in the NES days, there was no way to save, when Super Mario Bros. was ported to the SNES, it had a way to save, I think saving is a good thing, as not everyone has time to play for hours to get through a game. When I plan to play with save states on the Switch, I plan to only save after each level and of course explore the levels, I like to explore whether it is new or not. I don't just want to rush the game xD
My progression with this kind of games is different. I try for secret here and there every time, without significantly slowing down. And it takes me several runs to remember them better and better. Since level structure is recyceled too.
Yes, that would trip me up while playing Super Mario Bros 35.
I’m 34 and played Sega and Nintendo in the 90’s (still do today!) Discovering hidden secrets was always a rush and very satisfying! 😃
I'm 34 as well and I'm having a blast replaying a lot of my vintage games!
u called me out lol i never knew mario 1s design was that thought out gonna have to beat it without save states now :)
I did very quickly after watching this video, it's so worth it. The game is significantly better and more satisfying in my opinion
well said
The option to cheat by save stating is nice, but you’re so right in that you’re not getting the “true experience” by just brute forcing it with save stages. The game’s challenge gets so screwed by rewinding!
What about cheating via using continue code?
Perhaps i finally can finish the game without save states. As a kid in the 90's i hated the fact that i had to start over from scratch, when i got game over 😅
I can beat so many more games now than in childhood on old hardware
You are actually 100% right on everything. Save states and rewinds are okay in emulators, but I only use them or special purposes like figuring out new glitches or to speed run a certain level over and over. But if you really want to enjoy the game you have to play it the original way.
Thanks, I'm glad you agree, one circumstance that I use save states for is to practice boss patterns on a second playthrough.
@@SethHaskell Yo, I'm actually making a brand new NES game and will do a kickstarter soon. It's called Force Bot. Here is the link if you want to follow. twitter.com/ForceBot3
Yep...I usually use them in what I'd consider a "practice" run of an older game I didn't grow up with or had any prior experience with until now. Then I do one for "keeps" without any of these features. I'm perfectly fine going through something I played time and time again as a kid without these new features (classic Sonic, Rocket Knight, Dynamite Headdy, Ghouls n Ghosts to name some besides mario) but quite frankly it's not just worth it to learn a brand new NES game the exact same way I would have years ago. Better off just using the save states to practice and then do it for real in my opinion.
very nice, that’s probably why I didn’t like it the first time I played on switch
I mean you can go to play while you wait on switch and it doesn’t let you rewind or save
I'm older , still I love that save state . I don't have the kid time to play it like that
I wonder why the drawback of playing with savestates reminds me of my life...
This video is good.
There was a continue code in the first game saved time
Yes! I only learned about this after I posted this video and people brought it up.
Hey man. Haven’t heard from you in a while. Hope everything is going okay!
No worries, we are in baby receiving mode over here so I haven't had a lot of time online. Thanks for checking in. :)
@@SethHaskell Oh wow, congrats! Glad to hear everyone is doing well.
.........I'LL REMEMBER ANOTHER PARADIGM,THOUGH...CALLED "SONIC 3'S BARREL OF DOOM PARADIGM"-"IF YOU DO NOT KNOW YOU RE NOT GONNA MAKE IT SIMPLY BECAUSE OF HOW THE HELL YOU WILL GET ANSWER BY YOURSELF"
.......SO........PLAYING WITH SAVESTATES IS OK,AND I ALSO REMEMBER THE PAIN FROM 8-3 EVEN THOUGH I WAS ON CONSOLE
Screaming every time you pass that hidden 1-up in 1-1.
I get it eventually in the video. ;)
@@SethHaskell Yeah but the first few times I was like nooooooooo
I was about to comment how the subject is interesting but the “mouth noises” makes it hard to watch.
But then I noticed the video is two years old and the problem is gone in the new ones.
Keep up the good job.
Thanks, it was comments like this that helped me fix issues like that.
I'm guilty of dong this. Theese days I just don't have the patience to play through the earlier levels again and again
Try holding down A and pressing Start after a game over.
You know, I had never heard that until after I posted this video, I still haven't tried it but I'm inclined to believe that it works. I'm glad that even as an adult I'm still learning new things about my old games. Thanks for commenting!
work
@@SethHaskell Really? I thought that was a classic "secret" that everyone knew.
I've done it, I love it, now I'm spreading the word. I knew about some of the tricks, the Konami code, controlling the duck in duck hunt, but this one evaded me until 2 years ago.
@@SethHaskell I’m 38 and I also never knew about it until a few years ago lol, it’s said to have been written in the manual…I sure wasn’t reading that at 4 years old 🤣
I'm a "Exploring Paradigm" kind of guy... which is why I hate the count down timer. Not so much for short cuts but to defeat every enemy, collect every coin, power up, or free life plus find secret areas or even secret additional levels.
I'm so glad that they FINALLY removed the in game timer in the more recent Super Mario games, I believe we had it all the way through the Wii U games.
The count down timer always sucked, it punishes you for taking your time to think or exploring.
This is exactly why I refuse to use save states. The pressure to perform well or lose all progress is intoxicating.
It feels bad when you lose it, but when you come in clutch with that win, that is such a high!
Super Mario Bros has a cheat where after you die, if you hold down A and then Start, it starts you at the first level in the world you died in. This is a thing that was in the game since day 1. And there are only 4 face buttons and 8 d-pad options, so it isn't that hard to figure out on your own. What is the difference between using this feature, as opposed to save stating at level 1 in each world? (Apart from the fact that you can turn the game off and not have your save state go away)
Yes. Rewind is completely ruins the game design. But save stating in key places that make sense doesn't.
Correct, this is also the case in future releases. I've found that people who play with this still learn to explore through repetition, but are more likely to miss warp zones.
I was watching a TH-cam video of this guy who never played the snes version of super Mario kart. All he did was complain about how bad it was and always used the rewind feature anytime he made a mistake. It was bothersome because he never gave the game a fair shot and allowed himself to get better. He basically just cheated his way through. I could never hate the OG Mario kart. That game gave me so much hours of fun as a kid
I do enjoy me some SNES Mario Kart. My brother is really good at Mario Kart 8, sometimes I have to challenge him to SNES Mario Kart so that I can beat him. 😁
I don’t think kids of today could deal with loosing all progress after using all your continues. NES days were the most brutal. SNES had save features but even then there was still a grind to them.
I've seen many criticize old games for having you start at the beginning of the game or a stage entirely because you lost all of your lives and I just don't get how it's a problem, it's all about mastery and learning the game and once accomplished the game will stick out in your mind far more than if you just save stated your way through.
People don't want challenge today. They just want quick and easy gratification, and then to move on to the next meaningless dopamine hit.
@@pvanukoff I think that's a fair assumption to make, although I feel like that's not entirely true since series like the soulsborne games are so popular. I think the reason people dislike the older games is because they were designed with you replaying entire sections of the game in mind. Whereas newer games even if they're hard have far more save points and you're never gonna start the game fully over from death unless it's like a rouge like.
Except you could always just restart on the level you game overed on in SMB. It’s right in the manual.
True. In future releases of Super Mario Bros, you can save the game and start and the beginning of that new world. I've been thinking about doing a follow up with this information but all I've discovered so far is that these players still learn to explore through repetition but they usually miss things like warp zones.
The original release also allows you to restart from the world you died on, simply by holding A before it kicks you to the title screen. If I had to go back to 1-1 every time I died on world 8 I would have gone nuts, lol.
ah yes, just learn the level and then play the game from start to finish. savestates makes learning later levels easier, and then if you want to actually feel acomplished then you go back and beat the game legit. i dont want to play 1-1 a billion times thanks
u could just not use save states
You should try playing games without savestates first. Otherwise you miss out on the experience necessary to master the game. Of course some games are just brutal or poorly designed and it's not bad to use a savestate there.
Warp from 4 to 8 . 5 , 6 , 7 worlds don't need to be explored.
Your like the nintendo version of superderek lol this is freaking me out dude
If you are talking about SuperDerekRPGs then I'm totally flattered, I love watching his reviews, and I sometimes lurk while he is streaming! Thanks so much for the compliment!
Nintendo actually branded it the NES instead of Famicom in the US to avoid the negative perception of Arcade games and computers at the time . Arcade Games were made to take your money . That was the point . Not enjoyment or fun . It was basically just video poker that never pays out . With the NES that started to change . Games were winnable and they would make that the norm ...maybe not with every NES title, but that was the direction .
The NES is that interesting transition period between arcade design and home console design. A lot of series like Mega Man started with no saving or passwords along with a points system, but ended with a password system, E-tanks, and more.
@@SethHaskell yep . got to remember, firmware did not have the capacity and the software didn't have the capability . Remember having to buy memory cards ? Prior to that, the rom would have to be partitioned for saving and include a backup battery to power it . Very typical in early handhelds . Sony playstation was the 1st console i had that had a designated card and interface for saving and it was my 5th console...NES, Sega Master system, SNES, and Sega Genesis ...Sega was Nintendos only real competition too, just for reference .
Save states make the game better.
Rewind makes the game even better than save states.
There is no downside to this, because you can't stuff more quarters into your computer nor even into your crippled computer marketed as a "console"
This is the same logic as “cheating makes the game better because it’s easier”, lol. The game was absolutely not designed to be rewound..
@@DoomKid > "This is the same logic as “cheating makes the game better because it’s easier”"
Yes that is what I in fact say. I also say stop playing video games and start making them instead. If you have enough time to master playing any video game enough that you resent other people using save states then you have spent way too much time on playing games and need to go touch grass.
I think Zelda 2 is bad with or without savestates
I thought this video was gonna be about NES system RAM. Disappointed
2:58 And this is the reason why infinitely restarting at checkpoints in the dominant way games are made now. It's the reason why all games with limited lives and go-back-to-the-beginning have aged like milk left out in the hot desert and also why the Game Genie was invented.
This video started out as an explanation of why NES games haven't aged as well as SNES games. A lot of these mechanics came from arcade game design and by the next generation developers had learned to leave them behind.
@@SethHaskell Speaking of arcade games, have you noticed that when arcade games get re-released on compilations and downloads, they are "free play" by default, but console ports used to take away the buy-in capability and give you limited continues?
When save state happens... at first the player does brute force it (that is if they already have a power up)
but when I was playing Mario... it slowed me down to explore! lmfao good video!
That is something I use save states for, resetting the timer to explore more. 😀
you gotta be shitting me man
Mario killed the arcade
but is that really a bad thing? The original SMB is still an incredible game almost 40 years later and most would argue it's aged incredibly well outside of a few outliers. Then you see arcade-to-home ports such as Altered Beast and Golden Axe on the Genesis which more often than not people say have aged horribly and were a "product of their time". The best of these home ports often gave players concessions since coin feeding was no longer part of the equation. Case in point- Ghouls n Ghosts on the Genesis grants unlimited continues and even upon a game over you're placed right back at the checkpoint.
Arcades are still around of course and they're neat, but what I'm trying to say is that the arcade philosophy dying out in the home console market was definitely for the best.
@@evan2902 I think the social aspect of the arcade was unique to the time and probably not accessible to someone who didn't experience it.
Perhaps I was a bit harsh but I can understand the point he is trying to make.
I hated seeing people use save states when they were playing The Lost Levels on SNES. Bunch of cheaters! My enjoyment comes from watching them suffer and rage to the fullest, but save states cut down on that.
I still need to play that game, I'm thinking of tracking my deaths per stage like I did in my Castlevania video to see if anything interesting comes from it.
@@SethHaskell Will you stream the playthrough of that one. I just found this channel so I'm not sure if you usually do that or not
Yes, I stream on Twitch and on Seth Haskell Live on TH-cam. This game is on the list to stream in the future!
Honestly, I think the whole gameplay paradigm thing is complete nonsense. Everyone is different, therefore how the game is played will change from person to person. Yes, most first time players will probably be more cautious at first, but certainly not always. Some may actually brute force or explore from the very beginning.
I do agree with you that using save states and rewinds does change the experience a bit, but those features are added in for a few reasons. The main reason is that unfortunately younger generations are babies when it comes to difficulty in games, but it's not entirely their fault. In general, games have slowly been made to be easier and easier to beat over time. Most developers these days want everyone to be able to experience the whole game from beginning to end. But now everyone has become used to this dumbing down of difficulty and can't deal with anything even mildly challenging.
I need to show a baseline player experience to illustrate how save states change that player experience. The gameplay paradigm loop is a general experience that I'm sure has many exceptions.
I really like your reasoning behind on why modern games include save states. A lot of retro games were made more difficult to fight against game rentals, or trying to get more quarters in the machine. Games today are made to be experienced from beginning to end.
@@SethHaskell Agreed, everything changes in time.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the present day tastes in games. I loved those old platformers, brawlers, jrpgs, and point & clicks. Nowadays it seems at least 75% of games consist of FPS, MMO's, and walking simulators. Those are all anyone ever wants to play for the most part. There used to be far more variety in games. Thank God for those smaller indy titles where variety and innovation still exists.
I don’t like Dark Souls, but the almost overwhelming popularity of that series proves that tons of modern or young gamers want hardcore challenges.
to be honest theres no point in explaining this to the newbies... its better to just let a newbie play on a older console. old games belong on old consoles. new games belong on new consoles... for me thats the answer and the end of it. if there is old games on new cosoles its merely for nostalgia reasons and ogs. as newbies probably wont even play older games with enthusiam but just curiosity most likely.
Well if my TH-cam analytics are to be believed then the majority of people watching this video are my age.
You forgot the final stage of the game: The VHS stage. That is when you think you can beat the game or already have beaten it, and you record it on VHS. You are proud of having accomplished something. You are proud of having beat your first video game.
Reading off a screen
Guilty! 😁
Mario had its own save state in the game a plus select can go to any level you want your video makes no sense stop picking on emulation
8-4 actually has the easiest maze in the game. You just have to enter the first pipe after each lava pool.
Any maze is easy once you know the solution.
Your entire video is refuted by the fact that even the original NES games allowed you to start from the world where you died.
Press A and start at the start screen after you died and you'd start at the same level that you died.
Even Nintendo allowed you to start from the world where you last stopped. Technological limitations however didn't allow them to make it a permanent save which a person could access after a reboot.
So your whole philosophy about the game design being about replaying the first few levels for mastery is false.
And the whole point of said philosophy was well, the technological limitations, and to make it so that people would stay with the games longer. The whole point of the difficulty spikes was so that people would continue to play in hopes of finishing the games thereby artificially lengthening the game.
That is the fundamental philosophical difference between old school and modern game design, modern games are designed to be completed, old school games, are made to be as artificial lengthened as possible. And not whatever reasons you said in the video.
I agree that old games were made difficult to lengthen the playtime. And that modern games are designed to be finished. But the best old games like Super Mario Bros were designed with replay value in mind. It's true that the tech at the time limited games saves, but I don't believe that Super Mario Bros. including a continue option invalidates my point. If you play Supet Mario Bros like a modern game (play each stage once then put the game down) then you will likely not learn to explore and the game will end on a sour note with the maze stages. Future releases implement a more visible save feature, I've been looking into how this changes the play experience perhaps with a follow up video in the future. Cheers! 🙂
If u aint playing it on an actual nes it is never the same game