oh shit need to detail watch this, but if this is what I think he might be onto something very important that I've been too lazy to make a video about 🤣
I'm working on the material to further expand on this concept, its something I haven't seen many people talk about. Uncharted territory so I want to get my words right!
@@NoahAlexxander nice! My only question after watching most of the video, and this is something I go back and forth with in my own teaching is "is practicing each of these techniques as its own thing 'over-fitting'? i.e. would it be most efficient to just simulate the playing situation where they're applicable and let them develop emergently, spot-fixing any inefficiencies that come up." it's an ongoing debate in my own head, soooo
@@8020drummer I think its overfitting to put too much focus on it for sure. I rarely cover these topics so deeply in my lessons unless I think I have to (especially with younger students). I usually like to explain how the mechanics work, then just let it happen naturally. But I think having an understanding of what it feels like to use these techniques is valuable.
This was incredibly helpful. I thought I was only supposed to use the “proper one”, but it didn’t always make sense, or feel comfortable. Know I see that it’s just a loving family of grips to be used as needed. Thank you!
This topic needs to be adressed by us the drummers. Seriously, it's a fundamental subject when trying to play to the drums and almost no one talks deeply about it. All what you hear is wrist technique or finger technique, hand position on the stick and that's it. But it's a shorten version of the complete explanation. Thanks for the video.
I was glad to find the middle fulcrum a while ago. I had been just using front and pinching the stick too much, the middle is helping be have a looser grip and keep my fingers on the stick. especially my weak left hand. Great Video, subbed.
Noah, it was one of your early videos that made me deep-dive into my grip. Moving the thumb around, trying different levels of pressure, low contact to high contact. And I’ve found amazing sounds by doing this, snare drums and cymbals sound very different, in a very good way.
This video feels like a godsend, I've been struggling the past 2 weeks because I didn't understand how to integrate technique into playing fast doubles, and the crab claws tip you gave just opened my eyes, THANK YOU
Aside from Bill Bachman’s technique series, this is the only other video I’ve watched that covers this topic. Really concise, too! I spent a long time trying to “correct” my grip which felt very unnatural. I think there’s a tendency to oversimplify things like this. I understand that it can become a point of too much focus in place of other things that are arguably more valuable, such as phrasing and vocabulary, but in a bid to develop a well rounded technique I believe this is a fundamental problem that should be addressed early on. At the very least, it saves a lot of time and potentially injury from thinking there’s a good and bad way to hold the sticks. I tried sticking to a rigid first finger fulcrum and frequently experienced thumb pain, then tried exclusively middle finger which eased that but then made it harder to play faster, more nuanced patterns. Great video, thanks!
Thanks for the vid, cool to see someone highlighting this. Ever since Iearned back and middle fulcrum, I've thrown them into the mix wherever I deem useful
I'm a fairly new drummer. My stick in my right hand is always flying out haha. It seems like it happens a lot when I first sit down at the kit. The good news is apparently my grip is relaxed
Awesome video! Emphasizing something that is so important and unnoticed by many people. A question I always had is if using pure middle fulcrum allows you to make a clear close roll? or is it indispensable to use the index pressure to make it possible?
If you work on keeping your hands relaxed and using the right motion, you can get a closed roll from middle fulcrum just as well as front fulcrum. It should give you a fuller sound, too.
Two nit-picky disagreements: 1) That there's a difference with how much each grip lets you "open up." If anything, I've had the opposite experience: more facility with powerful and large, upstrokes via the rear fulcrum. Have you practiced "snapping" the stick up with the last two fingers? 2) I question whether there's much point explicitly developing a middle finger fulcrum when you develop the front and rear. First because it's a bit "jack of all trades master of none" and for most things where it works better than front, rear works even better (and vice-versa). And second because, if you develop the front and the rear you tend to develop the middle anyway even when you aren't really trying to. At least, that's what happened for me.
Yeah honestly I didn't spend much time "developing" these fulcrums, rather over time understanding how to use them. This video is about understanding what they are and where they come from.
On the contrary, because middle fulcrum is less specialized, more general-use, it should be learned first. It's faster to get the fundamental strokes down without also worrying about different fulcrums. Work on front and rear fulcrums later, when you want to go further, if you want - they're great, but not necessary for everyone. You'll always have middle fulcrum to fall back on.
@@jc3drums916 It's faster to get the fundamental strokes down with the front fulcrum than with the middle. So you learn that first and then the rear fulcrum. In the process you get the middle fulcrum for free. It's obviously the most efficient pathway for learning.
I’ve never really heard of back fulcrum. How would it work if you have your first finger and thumb on the stick while doing it. Does the thumb just flop about, following the movement of the stick? And does the stick slide along the first finger?
@@NoahAlexxander Respectfully disagree. I think ideally the back fingers should always be on the stick and developing the rear fulcrum helps with that immensely. But the front of the hand can be as loose as you want. And the looser you're able to achieve, the more you can develop the back of the hand and the easier lateral/circular movement becomes. As you approach your limits, the front of the hand comes back into play. Dan Weiss is a good example of a drummer who will often take the entire front of his hand off the stick and sort of use the first three fingers as "stoppers" to guide things along. But, I see where you're coming from if we're talking pragmatically. Telling a novice to take the front of the hand off the stick could go very poorly without the benefit of in-person instruction.
@@jaygee8566 I agree with you, and that's why I talk about developing back fulcrum with your front fingers off the stick. But I still like to keep all my fingers on the stick no matter what, even if they're limp and useless. I like the idea of no wasted motion, so switching my emphasis without moving my fingers around has worked well for me. But I dont disagree with you at all, just a different approach.
"The wood of the stick resonating is a big part of a good, open sound." Yes, but keeping all fingers on the sticks at all times inhibits the sticks' ability to resonate. I can understand wanting to keep all fingers on the sticks if it gives you a better sense of control, but it's a bit of a strange editing choice to bring up two somewhat contradictory pieces of advice/info back-to-back. If you want to maximize stick resonance, there should only be three fingers (thumb, index, middle) on the sticks (not counting rear fulcrum, of course). Develop all the fundmaentals this way, and use the rear fingers only when necessary for the sake of control. Watch any of Murray Spivack's students - Louie Bellson, David Garibaldi, Chuck Silverman, the Wackerman family, etc. - to see it in action. That said, control is more important, and if you feel you don't have enough control with a three-finger grip, use all your fingers.
The stick can resonate with all of your fingers on it as long as they're relaxed and you're not squeezing whatsoever. Having 5 vs 3 fingers on the stick shouldn't change anything, otherwise the stick would never resonate while in contact with our hands. Spivack is an icon, though. I do agree with that.
oh shit need to detail watch this, but if this is what I think he might be onto something very important that I've been too lazy to make a video about 🤣
I'm working on the material to further expand on this concept, its something I haven't seen many people talk about. Uncharted territory so I want to get my words right!
@@NoahAlexxander nice! My only question after watching most of the video, and this is something I go back and forth with in my own teaching is "is practicing each of these techniques as its own thing 'over-fitting'? i.e. would it be most efficient to just simulate the playing situation where they're applicable and let them develop emergently, spot-fixing any inefficiencies that come up." it's an ongoing debate in my own head, soooo
@@8020drummer I think its overfitting to put too much focus on it for sure. I rarely cover these topics so deeply in my lessons unless I think I have to (especially with younger students). I usually like to explain how the mechanics work, then just let it happen naturally. But I think having an understanding of what it feels like to use these techniques is valuable.
@@NoahAlexxander 🔥🔥
Clauss Hessler talks about this a lot too.
This was incredibly helpful. I thought I was only supposed to use the “proper one”, but it didn’t always make sense, or feel comfortable. Know I see that it’s just a loving family of grips to be used as needed. Thank you!
This topic needs to be adressed by us the drummers. Seriously, it's a fundamental subject when trying to play to the drums and almost no one talks deeply about it. All what you hear is wrist technique or finger technique, hand position on the stick and that's it. But it's a shorten version of the complete explanation. Thanks for the video.
Thank you 👍😁
Great lesson!
I was glad to find the middle fulcrum a while ago. I had been just using front and pinching the stick too much, the middle is helping be have a looser grip and keep my fingers on the stick. especially my weak left hand. Great Video, subbed.
Noah, it was one of your early videos that made me deep-dive into my grip. Moving the thumb around, trying different levels of pressure, low contact to high contact. And I’ve found amazing sounds by doing this, snare drums and cymbals sound very different, in a very good way.
Been watching your channel for a while now, very impressed with your teaching and your skill, thanks for the great work !
This video feels like a godsend, I've been struggling the past 2 weeks because I didn't understand how to integrate technique into playing fast doubles, and the crab claws tip you gave just opened my eyes, THANK YOU
Aside from Bill Bachman’s technique series, this is the only other video I’ve watched that covers this topic. Really concise, too! I spent a long time trying to “correct” my grip which felt very unnatural. I think there’s a tendency to oversimplify things like this. I understand that it can become a point of too much focus in place of other things that are arguably more valuable, such as phrasing and vocabulary, but in a bid to develop a well rounded technique I believe this is a fundamental problem that should be addressed early on. At the very least, it saves a lot of time and potentially injury from thinking there’s a good and bad way to hold the sticks. I tried sticking to a rigid first finger fulcrum and frequently experienced thumb pain, then tried exclusively middle finger which eased that but then made it harder to play faster, more nuanced patterns. Great video, thanks!
Bill Bachman is a technique icon. His books opened up my mind and really helped my hands when I was younger.
Thanks for the vid, cool to see someone highlighting this. Ever since Iearned back and middle fulcrum, I've thrown them into the mix wherever I deem useful
Really good descriptions & explanations. Good job man! Seriously. 👍
cleared up so much for me. thank you!
good stuff, thank you
took some time to discover back fulcrum. Tony´s favorite! :D
Thats where I first learned about it! If its good for Tony, its good for everyone.
I'm a fairly new drummer. My stick in my right hand is always flying out haha. It seems like it happens a lot when I first sit down at the kit. The good news is apparently my grip is relaxed
Awesome video! Emphasizing something that is so important and unnoticed by many people. A question I always had is if using pure middle fulcrum allows you to make a clear close roll? or is it indispensable to use the index pressure to make it possible?
If you work on keeping your hands relaxed and using the right motion, you can get a closed roll from middle fulcrum just as well as front fulcrum. It should give you a fuller sound, too.
Two nit-picky disagreements:
1) That there's a difference with how much each grip lets you "open up." If anything, I've had the opposite experience: more facility with powerful and large, upstrokes via the rear fulcrum. Have you practiced "snapping" the stick up with the last two fingers?
2) I question whether there's much point explicitly developing a middle finger fulcrum when you develop the front and rear. First because it's a bit "jack of all trades master of none" and for most things where it works better than front, rear works even better (and vice-versa). And second because, if you develop the front and the rear you tend to develop the middle anyway even when you aren't really trying to. At least, that's what happened for me.
Yeah honestly I didn't spend much time "developing" these fulcrums, rather over time understanding how to use them. This video is about understanding what they are and where they come from.
On the contrary, because middle fulcrum is less specialized, more general-use, it should be learned first. It's faster to get the fundamental strokes down without also worrying about different fulcrums. Work on front and rear fulcrums later, when you want to go further, if you want - they're great, but not necessary for everyone. You'll always have middle fulcrum to fall back on.
@@jc3drums916 It's faster to get the fundamental strokes down with the front fulcrum than with the middle. So you learn that first and then the rear fulcrum. In the process you get the middle fulcrum for free. It's obviously the most efficient pathway for learning.
I’ve never really heard of back fulcrum. How would it work if you have your first finger and thumb on the stick while doing it. Does the thumb just flop about, following the movement of the stick? And does the stick slide along the first finger?
With this approach, you still want all your fingers on the stick no matter which fulcrum is the emphasis.
@@NoahAlexxander Respectfully disagree. I think ideally the back fingers should always be on the stick and developing the rear fulcrum helps with that immensely. But the front of the hand can be as loose as you want. And the looser you're able to achieve, the more you can develop the back of the hand and the easier lateral/circular movement becomes. As you approach your limits, the front of the hand comes back into play. Dan Weiss is a good example of a drummer who will often take the entire front of his hand off the stick and sort of use the first three fingers as "stoppers" to guide things along.
But, I see where you're coming from if we're talking pragmatically. Telling a novice to take the front of the hand off the stick could go very poorly without the benefit of in-person instruction.
@@jaygee8566 I agree with you, and that's why I talk about developing back fulcrum with your front fingers off the stick. But I still like to keep all my fingers on the stick no matter what, even if they're limp and useless. I like the idea of no wasted motion, so switching my emphasis without moving my fingers around has worked well for me.
But I dont disagree with you at all, just a different approach.
Is it just me? You need lights if you're going to visually demonstrate something. Everything looks so dark.
"The wood of the stick resonating is a big part of a good, open sound." Yes, but keeping all fingers on the sticks at all times inhibits the sticks' ability to resonate. I can understand wanting to keep all fingers on the sticks if it gives you a better sense of control, but it's a bit of a strange editing choice to bring up two somewhat contradictory pieces of advice/info back-to-back. If you want to maximize stick resonance, there should only be three fingers (thumb, index, middle) on the sticks (not counting rear fulcrum, of course). Develop all the fundmaentals this way, and use the rear fingers only when necessary for the sake of control. Watch any of Murray Spivack's students - Louie Bellson, David Garibaldi, Chuck Silverman, the Wackerman family, etc. - to see it in action.
That said, control is more important, and if you feel you don't have enough control with a three-finger grip, use all your fingers.
The stick can resonate with all of your fingers on it as long as they're relaxed and you're not squeezing whatsoever. Having 5 vs 3 fingers on the stick shouldn't change anything, otherwise the stick would never resonate while in contact with our hands.
Spivack is an icon, though. I do agree with that.