The Enthroning and the Homage of the King at the Coronation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ส.ค. 2024
- #coronation #homage #charlesiii #enthroning #throne
In this video I explore the history of the two final elements of the King's coronation, the enthroning in the coronation theatre and the homage. The latter, which is a hangover from feudal times has been reformed and I offer my opinion on that - rather unusually for me!
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You undoubtedly deserve a long rest once the coronation is over, Allan. These videos have been most illustrative and important in my personal understanding of the event. As to the homage, I have to agree with you that it had been better eliminated from the service. Like you, however, I wasn't asked! Thank you!
As a Monarchist thank you so much for your informative narratives, really bring more depth to the coronation for me.🙏🏻❤️🇨🇦
These videos have been brilliant and really opened up the meaning of the Coronation for me. Thank you so much Allan.
What a treat! Thank you so much for all of your videos! It’s been a joy following along! The magazine this month is fantastic as well!
Thanks Lilly.
I agree with you, Allan. I think the Oath is a major misstep by the King and his advisors. They are making this portion of the ceremony too personal for those who do not support the monarchy. As a monarchist, I hate to see the King begin his reign by opening the door to criticism and playing directly into the hands of the antimonarchist movement.
The Archbishop is behind this, it has Justin Welby's hand all over it.
@@allanbarton We will need a Vicegerent in Spirituals to oversee Cantab.
It's all up to each individual; it's NOT a requirement. I really have no problem with it at all (and even though I'm American, I'm probably going to take part).
@@parkerbrown-nesbit1747 no it is not a requirement, but it is still tone deaf and plays into the hands of republicans. When people in England are invited to do something, they think it means they have to.
I agree completely tone deaf on the part of the Archbishop. I wonder if it may have been a better idea to have the Speaker(s) to pay homage to the king to represent something similar to this. Parliament being representative of the people etc.
Spot on in your analysis, as always. I really couldn't swear that oath in front of my laptop!
It is utterly bonkers.
I raised a glass of Chardonnay to him instead!
Your coronation videos are very helpful! I now have a better understanding of the symbology, and I can point out each meaning to my husband when we watch it on Saturday. I'm very excited for the coronation! 👑🇬🇧❤️
Your videos have been a perfect preparation for the solemn day tomorrow. Whatever one might think of the homage, it will be a spectacular service. Can't wait for tomorrow.
This series has been so informative. Thank you!
A really informative set of videos about the upcoming Coronation, thank you for all the work you have put into making them.
Allan this series has been marvellous, and it has been a treat to watch and learn over the past few months in the run-up to tomorrow's ceremony. Looking forward to your post-analysis, and I do hope you get a well-deserved break after. Cheers! ✨
Oh yes, I do hope that Allan posts a video after the coronation with his comments and analysis.
I totally agree with your comments on the public homage Allan. I'm a monarchist and feel that that having a monarchy adds something to this country that so many others have lost or decided to get rid of. But I personally will not be paying homage, it's not something I'm comfortable with. I feel that this is the Archbishop's doing, the King doesn't come across as someone who revels in fuss and being idolised. Regardless, it'll be amazing see the ceremony and hear the beautiful music.
28 videos. 28 examples of excellence. 0 duds. No one comes close to your work. VERY WELL DONE, my friend! Count me as a patron, you earned all of our support!
I so agree about the homage issue. I am a royalist and have frozen to the core at Sandringham one Christmas but that feels uncomfortable to me. I saw a nice programme about the makers of uniforms to the military the other day. They went to the makers of the cloth etc and gave a peep of a lovely dark red which they said was to cover the steps on which the thrones will.stand.
Thank you so much for your work. I have a level of understanding of the coronation that I would never have had without your videos. I and many others, I’m sure, are grateful.
When this is all over have a nice rest for a while. You've been working really hard for us these past weeks
I will, I am ready for one.
Thank you so much for all of your hard work, Dr. Barton. After this big event, I am very much looking forward to the time when the Princess of Wales is invested as a Knight of the Garter. I teach young people about "knighthood" in the 21st Century, and I have long studied the various historical Orders as part of that process. I would love to have your input on the topic.
I will watch the coronation, in loving memory of Her Majesty . It is important to keep calm and carry on. To honour the tradition.
Dear Dr Barton, What a wonderful series and a truly fitting tribute, not only to our new monarch Charles III but to the Monarchy itself. It's evidently involved a great deal of hard work on your part but, I trust, it's been a labour of love. I am saving all the episodes as bookmarks so I can re-live them all in years to come. As I mentioned previously, you really should publish a book with all the content of the series, even if copyright prohibits use of many of the images. Many thanks from this ardent follower in Oxford!
Fantastic videos Dr Barton - I’ve learned so much from them, and they’ve really helped me understand the meanings of all the various ceremonies and regalia.
Wonderful. Thank you. Concerning the homage of the people, I’m heartened that despite his personal republican inclination the Australian prime minister has said he will be pleased to swear allegiance since the people voted to retain the monarchy in 1999.
The invitation to express allegiance is urged but optional. It enables wider participation in the covenant between sovereign and people, and reminds me of the Coronation Speech of the late Queen Elizabeth who said, “I have in sincerity pledged myself to your service, as so many of you are pledged to mine. Throughout all my life and with all my heart I shall strive to be worthy of your trust.”
And after referring to “living principles” the Queen said, “I ask you now to cherish them - and practice them too …”
The Loyal Toast is also no mere expression of goodwill but (rightly understood) is an expression of allegiance.
Allan, you’re awesome, when I get to London I’m going to buy you a pint! Not sure when that will be, but still. I’m going to so enjoy the Coronation. I’m going to wear my Queen Elizabeth earrings from the Buckingham Palace Gift shop and the $7 shower cap. And my Queen Elizabeth Funko Pop figurine. I missed the Barbie last year, ha! Well, much thanks for your hard work. Cheers!
Belated thanks for all these wonderful videos. I understand the ceremony much better now.
Glad you found this series helpful!
I appreciate your hard work with all these videos. They’ve been wonderful.
The fact that the video has only been up for 17 minutes and already has over 100 views speaks for itself!
I have goosebumps this morning. God Bless the King. Love and blessings from Memphis Tennessee USA 🐈💓🎉
I'm completely with you Dr Allan. I'm uncomfortable with the 'homage of the people' for the reasons you describe. And yes, I wanted to see coronets galore as well! Your videos are just wonderful!
Allen i cant wait to see your official review video. Keep doing a phenomenal Job
It is going to happen in the next few days.
The homage of the people would have been an acceptable addition to the ritual maybe ... but I wouldn't have replaced the homage of the peers with it. I'd just have added it in, and even then like you said, it's a bit iffy in this system.
I'm an American, so you'd have thought I'd be a republican, but this system of a monarch who reigns plus a democratic parliament that rules is stable and has weathered every single global government transition that has toppled many other systems: from absolute monarchy to the magna carta, civil war, restoration, and the transition from empire to commonwealth. I wouldn't mess with that. Just leave the system alone.
I also think strongly that the monarchy -- in this specific system -- provides a safe outlet for any tendencies to cults of personality. In my country, those are now poisonously rife in both parties and doing untold damage -- people have turned over their brains to psychopathic crooks who would leave no throat unslit in their pursuit of power in both parties. In your system, people with tendencies to fall prey to cults of personality can instead swear their allegiance to someone who didn't pursue power but had it shoved at him and who couldn't get away from it if he wanted to: a mild-mannered old man who loves history and architecture, cares deeply about the climate, has started legitimate charities, deeply loves his wife, and yet who can't pass a single law.
Unfortunately, this is a preventive role -- it doesn't make good things happen but keeps bad things from happening -- and the value of such things is never properly recognized.
Frankly, I'll take your system over mine.
Me too.
Count me in as I concur wholeheartedly. The political climate here in California is pretty toxic as we are a single party state with no actual functioning government that can alleviate the problems. Not to mention the constituencies who do vote that leave a lot to be desired with their decision making.
Wow and well articulated... I could not have said it better myself! I usually have trouble trying to articulate the nuance of monarchy - something set apart and not democratized - that not only makes the United Kingdom and the other realms of the crown unique but an institution that protects its people through the projection of nobility and duty. A higher ideal. The coronation as Dr. Barton has so generously provided in his series clearly demonstrates that Monarchy is a calling from God, as the king is anointed. As over 1,000 years of history, tradition and faith continue, let's pray it continues to give everyone an ideal to strive toward.
I agree, too, about the oath, especially in this day and age when democracy is once again on tenterhooks. What a great presentation, Allan, once again you cover the subject admirably! Thank you, again.
Agree with you. Thank you for all your work. 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Allan, thank you so much for your work with this. Very interesting. I have passed links far and wide.
“Wholly tone-deaf attempt to democratise this part of the ceremony”. Very true words, I understand the idea of including people watching at home, but it’s not the way to do it
This ceremony for me is a symbol to represent that divine order is restored and maintained by the new monarch.
Thank you for your many instructive videos. I watched the late Queen's coronation back in 1953 and learned a lot about it then. Your videos have greatly expanded my knowledge.
I don't view the "oath of the people" as being a demand as much as an invitation. I see it as an effort by the King to include everyone in his efforts to serve the country/crown.
I had to take an oath when I became a (US) notary public and swear to defend our Constitution "against all enemies foreign and domestic." This coronation pledge of fealty may be viewed in the same light. Or consider that many US schoolchildren start their days with a pledge of allegiance to the flag (as the avatar of the country). Many meetings I attend as an adult start the same way.
Perhaps it is because I am surrounded by oath-taking and pledging that I don't see the offer by the King to share in his kingdom/reign as the horror show some make it. I see it as a statement of "we're all in this together, so I'm asking for your support."
Have loved all your videos about all the aspects of the monarchy (coronation, regalia, etc) and as an American, really appreciated learning about the history and cultural significance of all that represent/signify. I would love to subscribe/purchase your Antiquary magazines, but wonder if these are only available in the U.K.? I don't know if they can ship to the U.S.
Most of my subscribers are in the United States. Follow the link, there are options to subscribe and purchase back issues. Postage is reasonable too. The magazine is an extension of the channel, same material. www.antiquarymagazine.co.uk
My dear Allan, I completely concur with you. The Homage is now outdated. Yes, I agree and would personally have preferred a full fledged repeat of the 1953 Coronation, however I suppose that is no longer of these times.
I also wholeheartedly THANK you for all the interesting video's you've made about the Coronation, very enlightening!! I'd say, it deserves a peerage! 😊
They could have asked the speaker of the house of commons to swear the oath. Since he represents the MPs who in turn represent the citizens it would show this “democratisation" without making it feel weird for everyone
Great vídeo
Thank you ever so much for these fascinating videos!
I agree with you about the Homage. As a commoner I would never have been required to make an oath to the Crown (except serving in the Army or at Court?). Surely random peasants like me would owe allegiance to a local knight or lord? There was a hierarchy to all this. Again, how may one pay personal fealty without being physically present?
Bedankt
Martha that is very kind of you, thank you.
I'm American. I love your videos btw. And I love the UK. I'm excited to watch the coronation. I have mixed feelings about the royals, but I love the ritual, pageantry and history. I'll be up early here on the east coast to catch every second. But when I heard about this Oath I winced. We pledge allegiance to the flag over here, but it's a wholly different exercise and intention. America is an idea. So, we're always trying to re-remind ourselves of that idea with our patriotism. We can get a little weird about it at times, but generally -- when it's not being weaponized politically -- it's well intentioned and meant to be unifying. ... I was really glad to hear that you're feeling the same about the Oath and I wasn't just missing something. I'm certain it's been done with the best of intentions as well, but I find it mystifying and little worrisome that no one planning this was like: um, not a good idea your majesty. not a good idea.
I particularly enjoy your videos explaining in detail all the trappings and bling of the British Royal Family as they partake of the ancient ceremony of coronation. As for the homage question, as an American, I will sidestep the whole thing, but that quote from Disraeli, Morley and Jowett about 'never complain, never explain' comes to mind. The new Duchess of York in the 1920's got into trouble with her father-in-law King George V for undertaking an interview with a newspaper, and she never did that again. Just my opinion though.
Allan, thank you so much for all these videos, I've really enjoyed them and will miss them. Please do keep informing us of mediæval flummery!
I agree with you that the people's homage is a mistake with Welby's inept fingerprints all over it (though as a clergyman I will be saying it!)
Last Sunday we had a Coronation themed service and for the sermon I looked at some of the teaching from the Book of Homilies on Good Order and Rebellion, and it made me think about the relationship between the monarchy and rebellion (th-cam.com/video/t8Cxjxsce6c/w-d-xo.html). As rebellion is condemned because it is caused by subjects thinking they can judge their rulers, is democracy just a civilised form of rebellion? Not really a serious question but I thought it was an interesting rabbit hole!
Anyway, I tagged as many of your videos in it as I could and I've been encouraging my folk to watch your videos. You are a huge blessing and deserve all the praise you get!!
I must admit the people's homage is quite problematic. As peers have rather more symbolic roles these days it may come off as an attempt to make the coronation less about royals and noblemen and more about ordinary people, but pledging allegiance to a hereditary monarch hardly change anything, I'm afraid. But in any case, anyone who decides to be a citizen of the UK and the Commonwealth Realms is expected to make an oath of allegiance directed to the sovereign; at least here, it's just obligatory.
The irony being, I had to swear allegiance to escape. The citizenship ceremony for becoming Canadian I swore true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the second, her heirs and successors. It was said to us it was compulsory to become Canadian, they had officials patrolling the room to check our utterings.
Dr. Barton you are very busy with this coronation too. I believe you like to do the videos of this coming crowning. It is so much appreciated by me and a lot of other watchers. Thanks and I hope you like watching the crowning of King Charles too. All the best Martha
I regret the loss of the old fealty pledge. I think some sort of updated pledge should have been instituted... first by the peers reps, then by reps of various elements of society... perhaps even from the realms of which the King is head. then the bankers, the media, tradesmen, the military, workers, common folk, etc... to serve the Sovereign as the representative of the whole nation. Something to create a bond for the whole nation... perhaps even from the realms of which the King is head
Wish the archbishop hadn’t put this oath of allegiance into the ceremony.
Honestly, were I doing things, I'd do more than one segment of the homage. Keep that first one for the heirs and all. And make it still matter, make it clear that it still has the same clout as it did in the ancient days.
Now, in terms of a modern, diverse people, here's where I'd offer a second "thing" as it were. After leaving the Abbey, perhaps at the door?, offer something like this: "All peoples who are of their respective holy paths, are hereby invited to do Homage to the King. As you serve him, he in turn, serves you."
It's true, you cannot democratise something that has no democratic structure. But, like a building, you CAN add a wing onto it, so to speak. It might make things a bit longer, but it wouldn't leave everyone else who might not check all the proverbial boxes, in the dust.
I'm not British, so my opinion may be flawed. I've read all the order of service and they managed really well, except this hommage. There is no sense in asking common people to pay hommage, it was never done. It is sensiblle to ask peple of political power to acknowledge that they will exercise this power with the King, as constitutional monarchy demands, It was basically done during Accesion Council but could be visually repeated during corronation, it was at least an option. People like the monarchs to do their job, they really like to have right to judge if they are doing this right, to complain, but to be asked to join? It will fire back at the monarchy, unfortunately.
Your series was great, I've learned a lot , so long live the Antiquaries
At this point with all the controversy, I would cut the public homepage portion if I were the King. It’s much easier to cut something last minute than to add it.
1:57 If the visualization released by The Royal Family today is true to the original the Coronation Theatre will be very simple.
Also largely ignored is the fact that the liturgy only includes for The Queen to *acknowledge* the rod and sceptre instead of them being handed over.
I'm afraid those expecting a _really_ lavish ceremony will be disappointed.
Not in the coronation, but in matters of land tenure, large parts of the country were held as "Copyhold", or by virtue of a copy of the Rolls of the manor, held by the Lord of the Manor. Until 1926, whenever copyhold land was bought, sold or transferred, it was necessary for the vendor or transferor to appear before a manorial court to surrender the land back to the lord, who then granted it to the new occupier. Fealty was respited, although a small fee was paid.
We should also remember that when King Charles was installed as Prince of Wales, he swore fealty to his mother in the old way
I should do a video on this, I spent a lot of time working on manorial records in my youth. A fascinating subject. It is extraordinary that copyhold and the power of the court leets lasted as long as they did - the last part of feudalism to be dismantled, though long eroded. With went the last vestiges of manorial lordship. I had to simplify the system down to get to the heart of the matter for this video.
@@allanbarton Indeed it did, and even after copyhold was upgraded to freehold, certain manorial rights continued, such as mineral rights and the right of escheat of land, formerly copyhold of the manor, when the last owner died without heirs: otherwise, the land would have escheated to the Crown.
I would be happy to share my limited knowledge on this sort of thing, should you wish to take it further
I agree too. But I'm not in charge of a dang thing 😅❤
First, thank you very much for these posts. Hugely informative, and hugely enjoyable.
Like, it seems, almost everybody, I also suspect Welby‘s hand in the tone-deaf new form of homage. But I am surprised that none of the others involved spotted that it is not inclusive, but exclusionary - taking out all those who do not swear in Christian form, or who prefer to affirm rather than swear.
Besides, it might not be too good an idea to remind the republicans that feudalism lives on in English law: in remote theory, it remains the position that no one who owns land here does so absolutely, but from the Crown.
I had to swear an oath of allegiance to the late Queen when I became a British citizen!! While I think it's appropriate in certain circumstances to swear an Oath Of Allegiance to the Sovereign, I agree with you, Allan, that in this case that it will alienate certain members of our society!!
Thanks again for another FASCINATING video!!❤👍💗
I did it too as an Anglican priest, but that was a transaction of sorts - this isn't. It is peculiar.
@@allanbarton It's VERY peculiar!! I don't know which direction the Church is heading to, but I'm not sure I'll be heading the same direction, if you know what I mean!!
Yes I agree , the homage of the people is a misstep, but I think the homage should remain, but a reduced number, Prince William, Prince Edward, Dukes of Kent, Gloucester and Norfolk.
Also I note no Annex built on Abbey, looks quite bare compared to previous.
As much as I question the need to pay 'homage' to the King, its hardly being 'demanded' of me..? I can choose to utter the words or not, which is actually quite democratic...
Oaths are not optional. They are either binding or they're not.
If we still had elected kings, who would be elected these days? Some pop star probably.
Personally, I would have preferred the whole Liber Regalis ritual in Latin, presided over by the Archbishops of Westminster, St Andrews & Edinburgh, Dublin, Cardiff, & Liverpool (this last having the Isle of Man in his Province. )But that would take more than a miracle, it would take the actual Parousia!...(we're still in time...) So I will enjoy the pseudo-medieval pageantry & music instead. It is, after all, part of the Heritage of Humanity, if anything is.
It’s imminent
Thank you for the series of videos on this incredibly important occasion for Britain and the world. I do agree that the how much oath, though optional, is a bit presumptuous even as a nod in the direction of a kind of democracy. It doesn't read as that to a lot of other people however. I would have kept the homage strictly within the bounds of the Westminster Abbey personnel and the Royal Family itself to the patriarch of the clan. Other than that, it's not really needed other than friendly congratulations offered.
Based on pictures shared by the royal family twitter the thrones won’t be raised but equally leveled with St.Edwards chair. We will see
I do think the ‘people’s homage’ is very tone deaf (as was the way it was announced). I think the homage would have been best limited to the bishops and princes (where a strong connection does at least exist) or, as you suggest, dropped entirely. I suspect it is very unlikely we will see it return for a future King William!
I too, agree with you on the homage. I am 80, so I am stickler for old ways. Perhaps the "youngsters" will like it. I do not.
WE GET TO JOIN IN??? I WILL TOTALLY DO THIS! I see your points, but I do disagree here; I hope you take no offense. My reasons are this: the King serves the people every day, the least we can do is return the favor. The feudal system is of course outdated in many respects, but the reciprocal nature is lovely & should be preserved. All he will ask of us is to be better people, take more care of the earth & of each other, &, in return, he will use his power to do the same. And if the British parliament had taken more care of American colonists back in the day, he would be my king in reality today.
IMHO - It wouldn't be wrong to make a new throne. Could be nice to find wood carvers to remarke the throne.
I would also have preferred this Coronation to have replicated that of 1953 with peers in robes and coronets etc. Given that isn't happening in 2023, I feel like you that the homage should have been dropped altogether rather than having this half-baked "democratic" version. I noticed that owing to the backlash about it the Archbishop today merely "invited" people to do it rather than "calling" them to do so. Today's Coronation was undoubtedly a stirring spectacle but this homage struck a jarring note.
I'm rather torn about the homage. Yes, I agree it's tone-deaf given today's "atmosphere" and the opening of a rather obvious door to antimonarchist criticism. On the other hand, although I'm an American, much of my ancestry is from what is now the UK, and it's a complicated decision as to whether saying the words of the homage would be a way of honoring those ancestors. Would they want me to do it, to honor them and their lives? Can't decide.
There is no raised platform in Westminster Abbey so can the chairs be considered as throne?
In my view, no - a throne on the flat is an oxymoron. This is a major departure from tradition.
All servants of the crown are required by law to swear allegiance to the sovereign, so the prince of Wales could have included all the peers and commons thereby removing the people's oath which I found to be clumsy.
3:30: The canapee for the king already resembles a guillotine...
Wise - and informed - words about the homage, Allan. I've been embarrassed on the very odd occasions I've been at an Anglican service when they do all the turning round and shaking hands. Too happy-clappy for me. And the "democratic homage" is even worse. Cringe-making, irrelevant and playing into the hands of republicans.
I tend to agree with you regarding the Homage, but with a couple of caveats. Firstly, I would have kept, regardless, Prince William personally paying homage, due to the factors, such as being Heir, and what not. As for everybody else, I do agree with you in that it should have been dropped, but to simply provide some context, basically, while I don't have the various Oaths in front of me, most everybody who joins, "a group", like the British Military, I assume the police, become MPs, and even those who become citizens, all swear an Oath to the Sovereign, even if it's a bit indirect, such as the Royal Navy swearing to the "Lord High Admiral". So, with all of those who swear such an Oath, I can kinda see where they're coming from, although I still agree that they should have dropped it. Personally, while it may be a bit redundant, I would have kept to Oath to Prince William, and then the Lord Speaker, representing the House of Lords, and maybe the Speaker of the House (Lyndsey Hoyle), representing the Commons, swearing such an Oath/Homage, although I could also see them leaving the Commons out, entirely, in this case.
I think that's all a very sensible suggestion.
I dare to disagree on the oath. In these times of individualism, people need to personaly express their bond to their head of State.
I'm not a monarchist, moreso I'm just a history nut who loves these videos for the historical aspect of it, and I agree with your statement. I am going to be watching the coronation and honestly I'm not going to participate in that segment because 1: I'm not even under the rule of the king since I live in america and 2. I don't support the monarchy at this point and I agree that it's extremely outdated and is overstating its welcome. Having your citizens swear an oath to a king that has practically no power while watching their tvs is a little weird.
I'm by no means a traditionalist or royalist - just a curious observer from the US - and even I have found myself feeling uncomfortable with the idea of ordinary people being invited to pay homage all over the UK and the world. It'd have been better to leave this part of the ceremony unchanged, which would allow those who are so inclined to pay their own homage, but not make anyone else feel pressured or obligated to do the same.
You have my agreement from across the pond, though my opinion is irrelevant! The change to the homage does seem like a strange one. Better to just do away with it.
Yeah, seen from the outside at least, the public omage doesn't make much sense. You in Britain and in the other Realms don't live in a direct democracy, but in a rappresentative one, so let's say it is strange the only direct thing is accorded to you is the, although optional, demand to swear fealty to the king. Notwithstanding any possible constitutional problems that may come from it, It would have made much more sense, simbolically, for the MPs and the PMs to pay omage to the king.
The “homage of the people” is just so un-British that even staunch royalists don’t like it. Of course it is appropriate to pledge allegiance to the Monarch when, f/e, one enters military service. But we have in the Anglosphere two competing traditions that Britain has melded quite well - a monarchical and hierarchical one vs a more republican and liberal one where we don’t bend the knee and are aghast if anyone thinks they’re our “superiors”.
We all would’ve liked it much more if the toffs genuflected to the King (on our behalf) as in coronations past
KAMLOOPS GENOCIDE 😂 BY
ROYALS
I'm sitting upon my throne butt no one thinks I'm King.😢
Maybe one day they will.
10:10 I find it extraordinary that monarchy itself has survived the middle ages. Slavery, child labour and capital punshment have all been consigned to history, it's time this undemocratic institution went the same way.
Slavery Child Labor and Capital Punishment are still alive and well but in Republics 😂
@@user-bj5hp7vt6u I am referring to the history of Britain.
No