As an Aussie if New Zealand picked the laser kiwi we as Australian have to make a fire breathing koala flag on the opposite side so when both flags are next to each other it looks like a battle
It would have been brilliant if New Zealand changed their flag, then Australia changed theirs to a very similar design just to troll them so the annoying flag confusion problem continues.
as someone who lives in New Zealand and remembers the referendum a bit reason that it failed is that alot of people saw the referendum for what it actually was, the outgoing prime minister John Key's attempt to create a legacy for himself. There wasn't really any movement to change the flag outside of some fringe groups, you can go back to interviews from local news agency's at the time and you'll find that the most common opinion was "i dont give a fuck" or "we got bigger stuff to worry about".
I think enthusiasm for a lot of people died the moment the shortlist was published. I remember being at work when they were published in the newspaper, and the overwhelming feeling from the entire room was that the shortlist was uninspired, generic and dull. It didn't help that the committee had already essentially decided they wanted a flag with a fern in it, and the committee didn't really have very many people with any experience with flags. Nor did it help that John Key pushed so hard for his personal preferred design that it became a qazi-referendum on if you liked John Key or not.
10,000 submissions, two exact same flags with different colours in the top 5. I don't follow rugby much, all I wanted was the classic silver fern the All Blacks wear, but they didn't want that because of (BS) copyright issues(The All Blacks don't own it, Key just wanted to placate them). So instead we got these fern designs that look like shitty copycat versions of what we all know is the real thing.
The reason our flag didn’t change is mentioned in this video; the flags feel really corporate, like logos. As well as this, the flags were very unimaginative. Red Peak was the only one that actually had great symbolism, while the rest just had really generic NZ symbols
The only problem I see with Red Peak (aside from having maybe too many colours) is how the main feature is in the bottom centre. In practice, flags flutter a lot so you can only usually see the left side of a flag clearly. Would have made more sense to put the peak on its side, and on the left while keeping the NZ blue background from the old flag.
I knew the NZ flag wouldn’t change as soon as the final 4 were selected, and that included that “red peak” thing. They were all just terrible ugly designs, including red peak. The colour combinations were dreadful; why on earth do red white & blue need to be continued with and why try and force clashing black in with them? Why the insistence with impractical ferns? The entire process of getting the public to submit flags and getting a bunch of celebrities to then chose them was imbecilic. NZ will inevitably change its flag one day, it would probably be best for the government just to hire a vexillologist from overseas to come up with one.
At 1:50 you miss the most popular symbol that was on designs submitted by the public, the Kiwi, which was (according to their data) on around three quarters of the submissions. But don't worry, you are not alone, the commission itself missed that too as the kiwi was not on any of the shortlist of 40.
Whilst living across the Ditch , both flags hold considerable identity especially in our inseparable 20th century war time history &. exploits . Like the failed referendum to become a Republic , disagreement as to the proposed change ultimately meant defeat. As us Baby Boomers fall off the perch; then maybe a republic / flag change agenda just may succeed. I don’t think the passing of Queen Elizabeth will necessary hasten such events on either side of the Tasman Our Voice Referendum later this year might be all excitement we can bear in attempting to change our Constitution. You guys could always set the example should you wish.
To be honest, I think the biggest problem here was the selection. A simple black fern should always have been an option, and to my eye, three of the four most plausible designs were not selected for the vote at all.
@@sapphireopinionandallegedl4358 Really? that's nuts. A white fern on black background would have been cool and would have been as distinctive as Canada's maple leaf flag. The contest winner was a compromise mish-mash of old and new.
Laser Kiwi is of course the best design, but out of the 5 final options I think option C is my favorite from a strictly aesthetic standpoint, while option E is probably the one I would have voted for since it has enough similarities to the old flag to strike a nice balance between change and consistency.
C is terrible. At that point we would be better off going with the same old silver flag fern that kiwis wave at All Blacks games instead. E is probably the best, but the blue should be changed to black in my opinion.
We SHOULD have gone with the silver fern flag. There is a reason it is waved at NZ sports events - the silver fern is one of our main national symbols! I was all for changing the flag (I still think we should - and that we should change that horrific anthem while we're at it), but the final option was just terrible.
@@Matt-fb9yy For me that Silver Fern is only associated with sport. And I don’t really care for sport myself, I generally find sport tedious. The life I enjoy in NZ features little sport beyond the news headlines. And for all we know: In the future sport may not be important in mainstream NZ either. But to be frank: I think the entire idea of putting national symbols on the national flag is silly anyway. The best and most iconic national flags in this world are those that are simple with simple patterns and/or geometric shapes and a few colours (preferably 3, 4 maximum). It’s the tinpot little countries that nobody cars about who have these busy flags covered in symbols.
@@danieleyre8913 'It’s the tinpot little countries that nobody cars about who have these busy flags covered in symbols.' Let's face it, we are a tinpot little country that nobody cares about. Britain dropped us like a hot potato when they joined the EEC. That showed us our place in the world.
I knew a couple of Kiwis living over here in the UK at the time. I brought this up in conversation with them about this. I thought they would be quite enthusiastic about this, but they just rolled their eyes and just made the point of 'hasn't the government got better things to do'.
@@dutchgameboi2892 looks like our politicians are the same as well, albanese pushing the voice because he wants his legacy enshrined in the constitution. you shouldn't be allowed to become a career politician, it should be a side job, while you work an actual job for the most part.
The laser kiwi is the best flag ever. As a person who has a mythical animal on my country's flag, it is a dragon if you are interested. I think the world lost out a brilliant flag.
The shortlist was unsuprisingly basically what the PM had signalled he preferred, and that was the problem. While there is a nascent general desire from a lot of people in NZ for a new flag it wasn't an issue high on most peoples agenda and there isn't any consensus for what it might be. The whole flag issue pretty quickly became a politicised right vs left, liberal vs conservative argument between largely white middle class supporters of the National party vs. almost everyone else. it was widely perceived by government opponents - and the Key government was already waning in popularity - as an egotisitical exercise from John Key and it smacked of change imposed from above on a fundamental aspect of national identity. It didn't help that the only real alternative, the silver fern on a black background (the "All Blacks" flag) was conveniently dismissed early on due to very dubious copyright and sporting association (rugby being associated with some fairly unliberal thinking) reasons, despite the silver fern being used as a symbol of NZ many years before the All Blacks rugby team came along. For what it is worth, in my view the simple silver fern on black design would have probably won if it had received the official backing the eventual losing design got.
As a Kiwi, I remember the farcical nature of the whole flag changing process during that time. The panel overlooking the designs for the new flag, weren’t designers but random NZ’ers, (with no training in graphic design or how flags are designed.) The 40 options they intially chose were variations of either the southern cross, the fern or a koru spiral. It was also a vanity project for the prime minister John Key at the time. A lot of people I knew didn’t really have an appetite to change the flag, and the options that were proposed didn’t really cut the mustard. The final option with the silver fern and southern cross looks badly put together and looked like a logo for ‘NZ Inc.’ in the end, nobody wanted it to change because the option put in front of them was underwhelming at best. Still hoping that if we become a republic, the laser kiwi will become our new national flag.
"Nobody wanted it to change". Meanwhile 43% voted for it to change. Considering, that humans tend to like something more that they already know, this is a realy high percentage.
I am from NZ, to put it simply we didn't change our flag because the majority of people who voted chose to retain our current flag. The referendum was certainly controversial and there were many comments on social media going on how our government were wasting $26 million on changing our flag and how that money should have been used in health or education or the homeless. There were comments how the government and the media were using the flag change to distract from the real issues in our country like the fact our government wanted to sign us up to the TPPA agreement. In 2017 we changed the government and all hoped this would be the end of this nonsense however not, in oposition Labour were against the TPPA but still signed us up to the revised CPTPP agreement. In 2020 after Labour was re-elected with a massive majority they then started the push to rename our country from New Zealand to Aotearoa, instead this time instead of a referendum they pretty much just changed the name overnight. Our media were given $55 million dollars of printed Covid money to push this narrative of calling our country Aotearoa and also renaming most of our town and city names to their Maori equivalent. More recently there has been a push to rename our street signs to have Te Reo names. The referendum to change the flag was not popular but at least our last government had the decency to ask the people of New Zealand whether they wanted the change or not, this current government have just made these changes by stealth.
From what i remember at the time polls were showing that most people wanted a new flag. The problem is that everyone wanted different things and at the end of the day its just easier to stick with what they have. Unless consensus can be made about what the alternative should be I dont think they will change it any time soon.
Originally I don't think anybody cared and it seemed pointless but John Key(the prime minister) pushed through with it anyway so gradually people opened up to the idea of change but the nail in the coffin for it was the final few designs that we could actually choose from were lackluster and uninspiring to say the least... so we'd rather kept the current flag for now
NZ is a strange country. People there mouth off that they want some radical change or express some liberal “progressive” when asked as a reaction without thinking about it. But the more it’s looked into it; the less most Kiwis really want any change, and most change their minds. It’s the same with NZ being a monarchy. In reality New Zealand is a pretty conservative place, it is odd how so many people there can’t accept and embrace that. As for the public consultation; that in itself was stupid. Why on earth should the general public have any input into what a new national flag should be? Most people don’t really know much about flags and (no offence) but New Zealand isn’t a land where most people have good taste and are culturally refined. When NZ finally changes its flag (the current flag looks nice but it is becoming increasingly anachronistic); it would be wise of the government to just get a vexillologist (probably from another country) to come up with one.
What they need is a Caesar like dictator who comes into power, enforces the change of flag (the laser Kiwi ofcourse) and then fucks off to farm sheep. Democracy can never settle such things.
@@danieleyre8913 We all want change. We get pissed off, because Parliament spends its entire time doing what IT wants, not what WE want. When we protest, they get aggressive, when we complain through proper channels as they want, they ignore it, even if panels they create to look into the issues agree with us. The only figure in our politics they are afraid of, is the Sovereign. Which is why they want to get rid of him. He can actually overrule them, but that only happens if the Tribes tell him to, and they can only act on Treaty issues. The Tribes have no say on the overall decisions, as yet. Structure our politics around the Treaty, Parliament would be limited in authority. Which is why they do not want to do it.
@@shauntempley9757 Boo hoo poor Shaun, he always wants his way and the government and laws prevent him from always getting it. Parliamentary democracy means the majority chooses who governs and runs the country, it doesn’t mean the government does what Shaun Templey wants.
To end up with the original flag. Glad to see that the US isn't the only country that has politicians wasting taxpayers' money for some politician's ego.
I'm curious. I'm from a third world country that has far inferior facilities than NZ offers in reality. Did these 2 million dollars get taken away from anything that would have been considered essential? If so, what are those sectors and how were they affected as a result of this sum of money being diverted away from them? Would you describe the affected facilities as average, below average, shoddy, dismal or pathetic? I as this in all seriousness, because I live in a country where funds are regularly diverted directly to pockets of officials or to construct monuments which are used as long-term reminders of the public as to who created the said "icon" and the public is stupid enough to eat it up without realising that the country already had plenty of monuments (some that are 1000's of years old) and money could have been spent to remove the country's name from the list of poor countries. For someone who has lived in my country and whose educated citizens dream of moving to NZ which is portrayed as having an improved standard of living, better rights and social liberties, it is surprising when someone points out that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. It raises an important question as to what really is lacking in NZ that requires money and is not being attended to?
@@rosieroti4063 NZ is not very corrupt at all, in fact is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, but there were loads of issues back then like child poverty, crime, youth suicide (highest in the OECD) that were all rising very fast
@@mapper7310 the ambulance service was in desperate need of significant funding to bring its emergency fleet up,to date. Would have been a much better use for the money spent on the referendum.
1. The idea for a new flag was first brought up to distract from a political scandal. John Key (who later became PM) had been harrassing a cafe worker by pulling her hair on multiple occasions. He described this as an act of affection/joke, but had continued doing it even after being asked not to. This came out in the media, and everyone was thinking "WTF is up with this guy?". Soon after, John Key announced that the National Party would hold a flag-change referendum if elected. Everyone then forgot about the hair-pulling scandal and started talking about flags. 2. There was never a clear justification for change given, at least not one that withstood scrutiny. Many people claimed that we should remove the Union Jack from the design in order to distance ourselves from the Commonwealth and "Mother England", yet many of the proposed alternatives kept the exact same colours as the Union Jack. Additionally, we still weren't a republic, having Queen Elizabeth II as our Head of State. 3. The koru is not a "wave", it is a fern frond. 4. If you have another look at the koru design, you'll find that it looks like a monkey butt. 5. There was an initial short-list of four flags (not five). After selection, the koru design was found to breach intellectual property rights and removed from the short-list. The "Red Peak" design took its place. I can't remember the exact justification for Red Peak's inclusion, I recall there was talk of a legal challenge since the selection process had been so shit. I don't recall its inclusion being particularly democratic - some people made lots of noise so the government added Red Peak in at the last minute. 6. The selection process was heavily criticised. Complaints were made about the two near-identical designs being included in the short list, about only one of the four designs NOT having a silver fern, about the selection panel and their lack of design expertise, about animals not being allowed (making Laser Kiwi ineligible). 7. By the time the referendum came about (held at the same time as the general election), many considered the whole proposal to be farce, or otherwise a "vanity project" for John Key. The benefit vs cost was questioned. The referendum became somewhat of a vote on whether or not people liked John Key (many didn't). Personally, I was open to change, but not just for the sake of it. If we're going to change the flag, we should have a clear reason for doing so, which will help guide us in designing and selecting a GOOD alternative. Changing your country's flag is something you should do seldom and carefully.
You can distance yourself anytime you like hold a referendum you can be a Republic anytime you like hold a referendum if you can do it for a flag you can surely do it for those far more important things
You missed the driving factor being that this was the vanity project of a prime minister who had done nothing to leave a positive legacy and really, really wanted to be remembered. It was not about a public demand for change, it was one narcissist trying to guarantee a place in history.
This is what is happening now in India with inaugration of new parliament building. A PM who is afraid of public debates, who avoids public speaking unless it is scripted.
@@gammaphonic It was a campaign promise so Key can claim that at least, yes. Imo it was still a lot of silly vanity and nonsense regardless. Sort of like if someone said 'vote for me and I'll give you A, B and C things you love! Oh and also we'll have a referendum on whether cereal or toast are the nation's Favorite Breakfast'.
Some former colonies that became independent as monarchiies, and joined the Commonwealth subsequently became republics, but still remain in the Commonwealth. Oh, and Fiji, which is now a repubo, has retained its flag with the Union Flag canton.
I remember a lot of people talking about how the questions they asked were the wrong ones, which lead to a lot of wasted money. I know that a lot of people voted for the old flag despite being open to changing, because they didn't like the new design. It's a shame that they never thought to ask the simple question of "Are you open/interested in changing the flag?" especially considering how much money they spent on the process!
I was okay with changing the flag but ended up voting to keep the current one. I didn’t want a glorified sports logo as the flag for my country. I initially didn’t like the red peak design but once I learned about the symbolism in it that was the one I wanted. However, in my social circle it was seen as a vanity project for John Key, the prime minister at the time. There hadn’t been a grass roots movement for the change and there were more pressing issues that those resources used for the referendum should have been used for.
@@cometmoon4485 Honest I don't like it, but if we are going to change it then I think we should also leave the common wealth. Also we don't want to change the flag twice, so if we chose a new one there should be more thought put into it than just a selection given to people by a committee.
Kiwi here. I feel like most people at the time felt it was a waste of time and money. That said, government inefficent/wasted spending feels like a really common theme here. It generated a lot of talk, but that's about all.
I was keen on the country getting a new flag. But then I saw what was proposed as the new flag, and decided to stick with the existing one. It may be a bit outdated and blah blah, but at least it loo’s like a proper flag should.
Was the money really wasted? It was all spent within the country on advertising, printing, promotion, postage etc. New Zealanders were invited to participate and many businesses would have benefitted.
@@jasperhorace7147 Rather it be funded towards Doc or education or infrastructure (as terribly inefficent as they are with that one). All the money would have also stayed in the country.
I voted for Red Peak in the first round and didn't vote in the second one, because I knew what the outcome would be, but I would have voted to keep the old design. My reasoning being that the new one just looked too much like a corporate logo. It's no surprise that the PM at the time favoured one of the two Kyle Lockwood designs (the black variant, I believe), and he came from a corporate background. However, my family have a strong history with the military, and I was fully aware that this was a flag that would have to, one day, be draped over a dead service person's casket, and I didn't think it looked appropriate in that context. I have no personal opposition to changing the flag, I just felt the design was too bad, and the whole process was rushed. This sort of discussion would be better taken over a number of years, where a new design can breathe a bit. Also, as you mentioned, the correct time to change the flag might be if we become a republic. With my personal feelings out of the way, I think it largely failed because it was never a popular idea. It was something promised by a fairly polarising PM, the people who liked him really liked him, but there were a lot of people who didn't like him. He also went against his own party's base of conservative voters, many of whom would not vote to change. Meanwhile, a lot of progressive people, who might support a change, voted no because they didn't like the PM. Other factors to consider, no single replacement design had universal appeal and the referendum was seen as an expensive boondoggle by many.
Red peak was the least bad option of the 4. Having a fern on a national banner is an idiotic idea for so many reasons. But let’s be honest red peak was still an eyesore. The colours clash, the triangle looks silly…
IMO it should have been the silver fern with black background. We already fly this flag at every sports event and it is instantly recognized as New Zealand. I feel it already symbolizes us as a nation without excluding anyone.
It was my favorite too but It was because of ISIS john key thought the flag would get confused with the ISIS flag I don't know why a moron could tell the difference
In 2015 there was another black flag with white, showing up regularly on the evening news. Just unfortunate timing that the black flag choice coincided with ISIS (remember them?) Once pointed out, it couldn't be unseen.
Canada had a similar colouring contest in the 60s which mostly lacked support from the general populace. That did not stop the PM though who put his personal design for the flag in the final running. Many of our provinces immediately after the adoption of the current Maple Leaf flag changed their provincial flags back to British red ensign flags in protest.
Canadian province s never changed their flags back to the british ensign, only Manitoba, Ontario have the ensign , in fact Newfoundland and Nunavut have very modern flags . Only Ontario who think they think they are the centre of the universe and are not, they are really the toilet of Canada still live in colonial times. The maple leaf is know worldwide like the south African flag. As for NZ it is up to them to decide what they wish.
@@DAVEG-t4t The South African flag is known around the commonwealth due to sporting connections. Its certainly not a memorable flag it just gets lost in all the other African flags.
Flags C and D look the coolest in my opinion. We also don’t really get black and white flags so would be really unique and instantly recognisable. Edit: That being said though, lazer kiwi takes the cake….
Tbh i liked option 'A' over the old flag, but i think 'A' would look better with a darker blue like 'E' or the old flag has. Also alot of people wanted a variant of option 'C' where the fern was all white and the background was all black, but there was worry of legal problems with the rugby team so they avoided it despite it being extremely popular in the country outside of sports.
Thank you for making this video, I really loved this referendum. It’s also something many people don’t know about, and is a great opportunity to teach people about New Zealand’s National Symbolism.
The problem with replacing a flag is it has been a symbol for decades. People got buried beneath one fought for it and so on. That makes replacing it a very emotional deal. The high percentage for replacement surprised me as the protest here turning the flag upside down got a lot of negative reactions.
The big problem with the fern or the wave is that they are way too detailed to look good as a country flag. They look like a sports team flag or a company logo or something. Even the Union Jack, while looking complex, really is just some very simple crosses overlaid on each other, with a very specific meaning. The triangle one looked sort of OK, but the strange aspect ratio made it feel weird. I also think it would look better with only black or only blue. 2 colors is best, 3 is perfectly fine. 4 and it looks like you can't decide what to put on the flag.
Seychelles and South Africa flags are both decent imo, but I think something about the lack of horizontal symmetry allows the flags to look good even with more colours. As if there's something in our brains that, when confronted with (horizontally) symmetrical shapes, expects to see symmetrical colours as well.
The refererendum didnt pass because: A: They had a committee who pretty much wanted to play it safe and so they chose 4 mediocre choices. Red peak was added later, and was probably the most 'flag' looking choice. B: There wasn't overwhelming demand for a new flag. It was pretty much John Key's vanity project. C: Most kiwis identify the white fern on a black background as their symbol of national identity. It would have been interesting to see how this design would have done if added to the choices.
I don't agree with the white fern on black. To me it's the All Blacks logo and I have no interest whatsoever in rubgy. Maybe a fern in a different colour?
“Mediocre” is an understatement. Let’s be honest: All four shortlisted choices were bloody eyesores! I would’ve happily voted for a new flag that actually looked good. I also have to disagree with your point C. The silver fern for me is just a sport thing. It doesn’t have any sacred meaning for me. And to be frank; I think it is foolish to have any national symbols on the national banner to begin with. The best most iconic flags are those with simple geometric designs (like tricolours), not something busy with symbols like some tinpot banana republic…
@@kiwiscribe I’d prefer No stylised fern whatsoever. Nor any symbols whatsoever. No stylised Kiwi. No southern cross constellation. No kowhai flowers. No Maori Koru nor Tiki face. Just a simple geometric arranging of colours and/or basic shapes please. And 4 colours maximum (preferably only 3).
Hello Hilbert. I had to give a talk on Australia and the Australia flag, many years back, in school as a little kid on Commonwealth Day. It became obvious the differences and the similarities to the New Zealand flag. To me, even if there was no similar flag, the NZ one looks really good. The fact that the countries are tied by their history, such as with the ANZACS makes the similar flags seem special. I commented before on how I loved flag history from being that little kid looking at flags and maps. I also loved that countries had symbols, like the fern. It seems a pity to me to mix the two to seem more modern and lose the history. Having said that, I like the Canadian flag, but they had been looking for a unifying flag long ago, Canadian history being somewhat different.
I suppose the question is - should the public be given a say? Or just leave it to politicians? Canada removed the Union Jack from its flag in the 1960s and I don't suppose the people had a say. I think the maple leaf flag looks pretty good, but it is a nice easy thing to reproduce. A five year old child could paint a Union Jack. but at that age I think I'd give up if asked to paint every petal of a fern leaf!
@@rogink I was the sort of annoying kid who would have painted the fern, told you every city and population and drawn the map, showing them and all the rivers. That is why I keep suggesting Ripping Yarns episode Eric Olthwaite on TH-cam comments well as the follow up, Golden Gordon. Mind you, once my mates got me down the pub for a few beers, they said I was a different lad. I sometimes wonder if me winning the team eight pints for the pub quiz each week might have had something to do with it though? Those flags and cities and countries came in useful after all.
New Zealand and Australia are some of the youngest nations in the world. Both countries are very similar and still defining their cultural identities within our international community. The fact that both countries are still colonies of Britain makes the flag debate a moot point.
@@victoriarose9802I am interested where you are from, to have this opinion? From my perspective in UK, both countries have already distinct cultures, though being a Rugby League fan from the beer drinking, pie eating, no nonsense, suspicious of authority north of England, I will leave it to you to work out which seems more like my own.
@@alansmithee8831 I suspect that you are from either Manchester or Liverpool. This isn't cricket, so I'll just leave you to make your own assumptions about the British colonies!
From NZ. And I laughed when you said the more conservative party didn't want it changed when it was their leader's (at the time) idea. There was many reasons we didn't want it changed. Most of us thought it was a waste of tax payers money. We all knew it was John Key trying to put his stamp in New Zealand history, and his bid at a legacy. Yes if felt really disrespectful to our veterans that died for our country under the original flag. New Zealand always celebrates ANZAC day, which is the day we remember those that sacrificed themselves for our freedom. So the rising of the flag is an important part of that day. Plus it was also disrespectful to remove the union jack as that is a symbol of our ties to the monarch and the crown. That would have been a political disaster. I know there's alot of people in New Zealand that dispise the crown, it's a nasty debate people have now and then. But there's also the people that respect the crown. It was sad when Queen Elizabeth II passed, it felt like the world lost it's grandmother. that referendum really felt like it was disrespecting her as well when she was alive. Plus no one really liked the Don-key (man i haven'tsaid that in a long time 😂😂😂😂). What when we voted to not change the flag he had a tantrum and quite. Which left our country in a weird state of limbo. So yah there's alot of history around our flag. Also Australia copied our flag, they should have changed their one not us. What they are forever claiming things New Zealand made as theirs.
Also to clarify, we in NZ don't have a polarised 'conservative' vs 'liberal' political party structure and the Americans or British would recognise. The two major NZ parties are both very centrist and only vary slightly to the left and right in different individual policies, rather than overall political perspectives. Having an MMP system here we have a bunch of minor parties who each only poll around the 1-5% mark themselves but are politically important in decisionmaking.
Have to agree with everything you say in this. You are right on . . . being a kiwi and living in New Zealand; all that you say was the reason why I voted to keep what we had. There will come a time when we move further away from Britain. When that happens we can remove the British ensign, and leave it with the blue background representing the Pacific and four red stars representing the Southern Cross that steered All HUMANS to our amazing country at the bottom of the world.
As others have pointed out, as a kiwi, the main reason it didn't change was because appetite for change was virtually nonexistent, at least so far as I saw. Looking at Wikipedia, less than half the voting population even voted in the first referendum (the order of which was criticized by the opposition, as it really should have FIRST been the question "do we want the flag changed" but the first referendum was for which of the 5 shortlisted flags would be preferred). If you look at news coverage of people being interviewed, the most common response from the public was not giving a shit. The proposal was seen as what it was - a 26 million dollar vanity project for Prime Minister John Key, who wanted to rehabilitate his image after people started noticing the guy was a bloody creep who pulled ponytails, and a distraction from issues his government had created, such as privatization of state assets and the housing crisis we are still dealing with. According to some, Key stacked the panel who chose the shortlist to deliver his and his Cabinet's preferred ones, and it came out that some members of the panel had conflicts of interest, and none of them had any experience in design of any sort, let alone vexillology. Additionally, the shortlisted four flags were kinda shite. They were frequently compared to corporate logos, and accurately too! There are photographs people took of them being identical to branding on some products. A fifth design was preferred by some people (namely the design community and practically nobody else), the Red Peak design, which ALSO turned out to already be a company logo as I recall. And that's me saying that as someone who does think we ought to not be so attached to the UK! But I do believe that at the moment, changing the flag to get rid of the Union flag would be nothing but posturing. It would be an empty gesture unless it came with ACTUAL commitment to leaving that colonial legacy, which you'll never get from a right wing National government because they consistently wish to keep ignoring the Treaty of Waitangi and all that crap - National and the right wing are invested in continuing that colonial legacy. It was a waste of money spent on a meaningless vanity project for a failing government. Edit, also because I just got reminded: Very few of the designs even reflected our national colours, and those that did did not get into the shortlist - our national colours are red black and white, which the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is in. Two of the designs were just black and white which is more associated with sports here, and the others all kept the blue.
The Union Jack does not make me think of British rule. It makes me think of my heritage-ancestors from Scotland and England. I think a lot of NZers think like this.
Exactly agreed. The UK has never proper ruled Aus/NZ compared to other "places" of the world. Aus/NZ were basically the babies of the family; they always did whatever they want, while the elder of the family US became the most powerful thing the world has ever known in recorded history.
Do the Scottish rock their British rulers? What about the Highlander? What about how the Romans built Hadrians wall because the Scott’s were so badass? Seems weird to think the Scott’s would so happily rock the umbrella of Britain
I remember this at primary school we all made new designs and sent them in and we got updates throughout the year. I think it was cool lessons on how democracy works and that eventually we all would have the ability to have a say in this sort of thing. As for my flag design I imagine it was magenta cyan and covered in robots. I think it was a waste of money now as it didn’t change. Perhaps if it was a question in a general election that asked if we even wanted to consider changing it.
school taught everyone about democracy and voting yet we never realised it. who was your school captain? and was it because they were popular, or because they would make a good captain? strange how the same applies in real life... are we voting politicians in because they are popular, or because they do a good job? and how do these people get nominated in the first place? was it a unanimous decision or did they jump up and say "pick me pick me?" i have no idea where any of these canditates we vote for come from, they just appear and then for some reason we vote on appearance rather than performance... not that voting does anything, mind... if voting worked, it would be illegal. good old samuel clemens. at no point , under any circumstances, should anyone that wants to lead, ever be in the position to lead. dougie adams.
As a kiwi connection with my family history is my personal reason for wanting to keep the old flag but I respect other different feeling, especially maori. Secondly it felt very 'top down' the government was really trying to push national identity formation rather than a ground swell, I know it can be done like in cannada but i would want a more symbolic context if we are to change the flag to provide more meaning and feel less cooperate logo. Lastly on the confusion with the aus flag, I get it but lots of countries are way more similar, see everyone using the tricolor especially.
exactly, african flags in west africa all have red, yellow and green because of ethiopia, central american flags have similar flags do to being united at some point, flags have history you cant just make one and make the people vote on it
@@rarekev9332 Although the submissions came from the people. And the people had the right to choose it instead of the leader and picking it themselves without any save from the citizens.
Stats fail at 3:50 : just because option A beat option B in the second round having come second in round 1 *doesn't* mean "some of the people who voted for B changed their view". The losing design went from 41 to 49. For what you're saying to be possible, the losing flag would have needed a lower % of the vote than in round 1. What you mean to say is "the previously less liked design picked up more votes from the first set of designs". Not surprising: all the excluded designs featured black, and so did the eventual winner. People obviously wanted that more than red. Makes sense in NZ. Great vid tho, thanks 😊
LONG LIVE THE LASER KIWI this is the video I've been waiting for thank you from NZ 🤣❤️ Also, no one wanted to spend all the money needed to change the flag and it just felt like one big play-along drawing competition for the whole country 🤷♀️
As a Kiwi, I chose option E but Red Peak is a close second. Option A had a terrible colour of blue. However since maturing more, I would prefer to keep our current flag.
As a Kiwi I initially was open to changing the flag. But air changed my mind as soon as they narrowed down to the final four. They were all so hideous that I decided to just keep the current one. It may be a bit anachronistic but at least it looks like a flag should…
The funny thing is that a flag that is often used (on car's licence plates) is the current flag but with the union jack removed and the southern cross centralised, with no changes to the colours used. I wish this had been on the referendum at the time, I honestly think it would've won if it had been.
Nah. It looks lame and it would’ve got rejected. I want a new flag that’s a complete break. No red white & blue, no stylised constellations (nor symbols at all).
I think if NZ really wanted to differentiate themselves from Aus (even though I don't think it's hard to tell the two apart, even hanging limp the commonwealth star is always visible and a dead giveaway) the best solution would really be to just change the shade of blue to a lighter one, sort of like fiji or the short-lived Rhodesian one, which was a less brilliant blue than Fiji. The Rhodesian shade would be best since that flag no longer exists but Fiji's does and is basically turquoise, not sky blue.
Changing the NZ flag to something different to the Australian one will just mean that instead of mistaking it for the Australian flag: They instead won’t have a clue what it is…
The problem is huge and unsolvable as Austrailia copied NZ and being of criminal background will admit nothing. We are inclined let it go while thrashing them at any sport that matters in revenge.
@@kevinansley7353 The only sport NZ can thrash Australia in is rugby, which doesn’t matter. And maybe yachting, which isn’t even a major sport in NZ. In football NZ is even worse than Australia.
The blue and black fern wasn't preferred to red and blue. It was selected as the referendum used a single transferrable vote and it was the most popular second choice.
1: New Zealanders were never actually asked whether we WANTED a new flag. Instead of asking "which of these 40 flags do you like?" the first question should've been "Do you want a new flag?" Millions of dollars were wasted and all we learnt was that most NZer's preferred the old flag over the "new" flag 2: People saw it as a vanity project for John Key the prime minister. 3: The inclusion of the Red Peak design after the initial vote showed that the process was not exactly free from interference from certain groups who felt they knew better than the "commoners'. 4: The timing was bad as we were approaching the 100 year anniversary of World War 1, a large part of New Zealand's identity was forged at Gallipoli and the Western front, and some felt that it was disrespectful to the people who had fought and died under the 'old flag' to have it changed at this time.
As a linguist I am very interested in the way young British people are gradually moving over to speak what is basically American English without the accent. I note that you pronounce the years using the American system of numbers leaving out the word 'and'. You say 'two thousand fifteen' rather than 'two thousand and fifteen'. Come to think of it that's already quite unusual. It's more normal to say 'twenty fifteen'. Nevertheless, I notice another young Briton using vocabulary/structures which are American. Fascinating.
Did you actuslly talk to any new Zealanders when making this video? A lot of us voted against the new design because it would be a waste of time and money to change it, and we didn't like the (at least perceived if not actual) reasoning for this all coming up, which was for the pm to have their pet project.
There's a lot of missing perspective here, Hilbert. Next time, just reach out to a few Kiwis if you want to do a video about us. A few really important points you missed: • The New Zealand flag's design is the original. The Australian flag is modelled on our flag. Why should we change ours? • The Silver Fern is heavily associated with sports, and most kiwis didn't want a sports logo on the national flag. • While everyone was invited to submit designs, the select committee had an agenda to nominate a certain design. The lack of variation in the final round felt hypocritical. • Most kiwis I know saw this whole thing as a distraction from other political problems of the time, and a legacy project for the then-PM John Key. • A little while before the final vote, the War Memorial was opened, which commemorated the many soldiers who'd died under our flag. That really brought home how tone-deaf and ultimately pointless the whole idea of a flag change was.
A lot of Kiwis I know wanted the flag to change! Including myself. Was a bit of a kick in the guts when all that money was spent & it never happened :(
@@leesilvia4590 It's a bit different for a family that has a member serving in the military. That flag really means something important. But I understand your frustration.
"The New Zealand flag's design is the original. The Australian flag is modelled on our flag. Why should we change ours?" Wrong. Look up the Australasian Anti-Transportation League Flag, this is really the first of the southern cross design flags and was used in Australia first. Therefore NZ is a variation of a flag already used in Australia, and any other variations could also be credited to the original which was from Australia
That is something Kiwis believe and often tell themselves, but it is a Kiwi myth to feel better. The NZ flag is not the original and Australia did not copy NZ. Its just not true
@@chileo1 Go look it up, The Australian flag was chosen from a flag competition in 1901, from 5 nearly-identical designs from different applicants. The New Zealand flag, on the other hand, was designed by Admiral Albert Hastings Markham in 1869. Because of different flag designs being used after that, the NZ government adopted the flag as official in 1901, after the New Zealand Ensign bill was proposed in 1900 - a year before the Aussie competition. It was approved by King Edward VII in 1902. The Aussie flag, on the other hand, wasn't approved by the king until 1903, and the final design as we see it today wasn't adopted until 1908. And in fact, one of the winning applicants was a New Zealand sailor, William Stevens, who thought that if Australia and New Zealand were to become a single Commonwealth entity, that it would be easier if they had similar flags.
I still think the best one they had that never made the shortlist was the Black Jack as it covered everything that makes NZ. The Union Jack in the corner was done in Maori style, the field was black and retained the southern cross. Such a shame.
To be honest, I can see why the flag didn't change. It's been the flag of New Zealand ever since it gained it's independence from the empire and it's the flag most people would associate with the country
I have a question for the kiwis and australians who are in the comment section Dont you guys think the existence of the union jack in your respective flags symbolise the dark history of your country when you were subjugated and possibly oppressed and that a new flag would represent your freedom and independence?
I think it's important to remember that a lot of people considered this referendum a joke / a last gasp of the national party's popularity (the PM resigned the next year & they lost the next election) so the final result being higher in favour of the alternative than predicted doesn't indicate (to me) that it actually *was* any more popular, just that people didn't bother voting.
I never had any time for John Key and his corporatist and pro-China government nor the nasty Nat’s in general. But I was very open to change the flag, who the PM happened to be never even crossed my mind. However what made me change my mind about changing the flag was the final 4 options the “panel” narrowed it down to. They were all bloody dreadful and utterly unsuitable for a flag. So I voted to keep the old one.
@@damionkeeling3103 The TPP was “widely opposed” in NZ? I don’t remember that. I only remember much in the way of opposition from the usual conspiracy nuts.
The problem with the referendum is that it asked the wrong questions. The first one should be if the public wanted to change the flag first. Then start with the design competition. All the same flag design with the old flag to be voted in the preferential voting system
When you want to replace a flag, first hold the vote to determine if the public wants to replace the flag before you go through the effort of designing 10,000 flags.
all the designs aside from red peak just looks terrible from a flag design standpoint. whoever designed them put more effort on including references and not on how good the flag actually looks. this doesnt mean red peak is better than the old flag, its way too simplistic and the colors give a silicon valley tech corporation logo vibe instead of looking like a flag.
@@darren8608 I agree that it looks the most like a flag. But it still looks terrible. I did think it was funny at the time how when it came out; there was suddenly this surge of support for it that was bigger than any of the dopey fern flags, so Key had to pull strings to include it. So much for the popularity of having a fern on the flag, it really only represents muppet sports fans.
1:15 is my choice. Just some notes; The Australian flag is a copy of the New Zealand flag. Given that Australia is more likely to become a republic, it's they who must change, leaving NZ with its simple and effective design. If New Zealand became a republic that doesn't mean it ceases to be a member of the Commonwealth. Many republics belong to the Commonwealth, India being an example. What would happen is NZ would cease to be a realm of His Majesty and no longer have him as its head of state.
@@dannyarcher6370 The flag usually reflects the entity that it represents. We are talking flags, not what a country is, but on that point Hawaii is a country. However, it chooses to belong to the USA and thus subordinates itself to that federal structure. Don't understand this point? Consider Delaware, according to you it wouldn't be a country, but if that is the case, how come companies registered in Delaware and subject to its laws alone, operate freely outside of the US and only Delaware courts can hear matters concerning it.
@@kenhorlor5674 The old flag of my republic, South Africa, was composed of FOUR former states' flags, two being constitutional monarchies (including the UK), and two republics. My point, since you asked, is that being a republic does not necessarily lead to the removal of founding states' flags on the new republic's flag. Fiji is a republic which maintains the Union Jack on its flag. You also appear to know nothing about the autonomy of US states. Hawaii is not a country. No referendum on independence would be recognised by the federal government.
I've always thought that when designing a national flag the key thing is that a 7 year old should be able to draw it. Anything more complicated will not catch on.
I agree with many others that the main reason this failed was that it was seen as a John Key vanity project. Two corrections to the video however: (i) the koru represents an unfurling silver fern frond, not a wave, and (ii) most Commonwealth countries are *already* republics.
Need to get your facts right Hilbert, the Koru is not a wave, its a baby fern frond unfurling. All the Kiwi's I know said they were as long overdue as Australia when it comes to giving back the Jack on our flags and designing our own, but at the time they were all so cynical about the final designs put forward and didn't care because it was a pantomime created to distract everyone's concern on how insanely expensive the real estate market had become, the growing gangs and crime rate and number of homeless people there were.
While the flags of New Zealand and Australia have similar design, the difference between that of Monaco and Indonesia is only the aspect ratio. Not to mention Chad and Romania, lol.
The out of place star is known as the Commonwealth star, meant to symbolise Australia as a federation, with 7 points, 6 of them are for 6 the states and one for the territories.
@@yuvrajshah1158 Australia has two territories the NT and ACT now so the 7 points is out of date. The NT was part of South Australia at one stage. The ACT exists because Australia could not workout to make Melbourne or Sydney the capital.
I was looking forward to having a new flag, but all of the possible alternatives were total eyesores. After seeing the options, I quickly changed my mind and I'm happy the majority had enough senses to keep the original flag.
As a New Zealander I think the new design probably would have one if it had used the same colour tone of blue from the old flag The shade of blue that was chosen on the new design was too close to the colour associated to one of the two major political parties Which anyone that had a ideological disagreement with that party would’ve voted against that flag If we use the colour from the old flag it would’ve been politically neutral and I think that would’ve Changed the results even though Zack shades of colours on flags are not super relevant because they Fade and change with the weather but the exact colour tones that are used in the render have massive perception connotations And there was another large aspect to the final flag not being accepted there was quite a lot of mistrust about the reasoning of having the referendum being something to distract voters from other issues that had were being pushed through an urgency in the parliament So I was just seen by a lot of people as a distraction technique from what they perceive were the real issues so they voted against it in principle
And so the confusion between NZ and Aussie flags continues, thanks NZ. The black with white fern would have looked representative instead of the knockoff. And before I get the, it was our flag first argument. This design first appeared in Victoria as a naval design. Furthermore the Australian flag was copyrighted first.
I'm not from new zealand, but I would've gone for the swirl design. Maybe with the red white blue color scheme. That would be one of the most unique designs for a flag in the world. Also it'd be nice for new zealand to have a flag that actually represents _new zealand_ and not just the UK.
Canada here. I remember, from when I was a kid, the Commonwealth Games were held in Christchurch. At that time, the flag that was designed for the games became quite popular and New Zealanders started saying that it would make a good replacement for the current flag. Part of the television coverage was a story about the flag and peoples reaction to it. Was that flag part of the competition?
I think the mistake was voting AFTER the designs were chosen, which meant that 3 out of 5 were largely unpopular. If if they use voting to shortlist the designs and proceed from there then all 5 of them will be popular and any one design will be suitable.
As an Aussie if New Zealand picked the laser kiwi we as Australian have to make a fire breathing koala flag on the opposite side so when both flags are next to each other it looks like a battle
Or a boxing kangaroo
It would have been brilliant if New Zealand changed their flag, then Australia changed theirs to a very similar design just to troll them so the annoying flag confusion problem continues.
An emu
@@andmos1001boxing kangaroo is old. A boxing echidna? That's what I want on a flag
you guys are making kiwiland vs emutopia hot war a thing now, I swear
Perun's wildest dreams come true
The laser eyed birb flag is still the best flag for a flag design contest
lazer kiwi got my vote
Cockatrice is what you’re thinking of?
nooo
It's what I wanted but wasn't offered
Lets Go!! Laser Kiwis
The fact that the laser eyes kiwi bird is one of the 40 design that got in is quite impressive.
It didn't get in into the list of 40, in fact, none of the flags on that list had a kiwi bird as a symbol.
@@raceris7309
Thought it did since that design was mentioned after the total dropping to 40 from 1:09
He said the list was reduced to 40.
However we can agree this one should of won.
Not great video timing tho
The kiwi is a deadly laser
@@Zack_Zander It wasn’t. There’s a list of them in a video called New Zealand Flag Referendum Explained
What they needed was an actual design process to design a new flag, rather than just picking one of the first batch that came through.
Exactly. Why didn't they look over the submissions and take the ideas and actually design one.
kyle lockwoods designs sucked
Small note, while the koru looks like a wave it represents the early stages of a fern there it is coiled up.
as someone who lives in New Zealand and remembers the referendum a bit reason that it failed is that alot of people saw the referendum for what it actually was, the outgoing prime minister John Key's attempt to create a legacy for himself. There wasn't really any movement to change the flag outside of some fringe groups, you can go back to interviews from local news agency's at the time and you'll find that the most common opinion was "i dont give a fuck" or "we got bigger stuff to worry about".
Pretty much, yeah. It also got really dragged out, and a lot of people got fed up with it, really.
So true
It was a political attack from Labour that killed it. The process was floored as well.
See many kudos nz flag debate
@@buzzlite3 yes, the process was flawed!
I think enthusiasm for a lot of people died the moment the shortlist was published. I remember being at work when they were published in the newspaper, and the overwhelming feeling from the entire room was that the shortlist was uninspired, generic and dull.
It didn't help that the committee had already essentially decided they wanted a flag with a fern in it, and the committee didn't really have very many people with any experience with flags. Nor did it help that John Key pushed so hard for his personal preferred design that it became a qazi-referendum on if you liked John Key or not.
Yep it was what killed it for me; the four shortlisted fuglies.
The entire process was a dreadful idea in hindsight…
Maybe they could do it again but with more rounds and more initial submissions
10,000 submissions, two exact same flags with different colours in the top 5. I don't follow rugby much, all I wanted was the classic silver fern the All Blacks wear, but they didn't want that because of (BS) copyright issues(The All Blacks don't own it, Key just wanted to placate them). So instead we got these fern designs that look like shitty copycat versions of what we all know is the real thing.
@@Icetea-2000 Funny joke.
@@TheAlastairBrown I wanted no fern of any kind. What a stupid thing to have on a national flag.
The reason our flag didn’t change is mentioned in this video; the flags feel really corporate, like logos. As well as this, the flags were very unimaginative. Red Peak was the only one that actually had great symbolism, while the rest just had really generic NZ symbols
The only problem I see with Red Peak (aside from having maybe too many colours) is how the main feature is in the bottom centre. In practice, flags flutter a lot so you can only usually see the left side of a flag clearly. Would have made more sense to put the peak on its side, and on the left while keeping the NZ blue background from the old flag.
I knew the NZ flag wouldn’t change as soon as the final 4 were selected, and that included that “red peak” thing.
They were all just terrible ugly designs, including red peak. The colour combinations were dreadful; why on earth do red white & blue need to be continued with and why try and force clashing black in with them? Why the insistence with impractical ferns? The entire process of getting the public to submit flags and getting a bunch of celebrities to then chose them was imbecilic.
NZ will inevitably change its flag one day, it would probably be best for the government just to hire a vexillologist from overseas to come up with one.
Corporate logos? Then you haven't seen the state/city flags in the US.
@@itsblitz4437 I hope we in NZ could do a bit better than flags that are flown in the USA…
@@danieleyre8913 it's not hard to do better than the US, with their constantly itchy trigger finger.
At 1:50 you miss the most popular symbol that was on designs submitted by the public, the Kiwi, which was (according to their data) on around three quarters of the submissions. But don't worry, you are not alone, the commission itself missed that too as the kiwi was not on any of the shortlist of 40.
Probably because the Kiwi, as a flag design, sucks.
Whilst living across the Ditch , both flags hold considerable identity especially in our inseparable 20th century
war time history &.
exploits .
Like the failed referendum to become a Republic , disagreement as to the proposed change ultimately meant defeat.
As us Baby Boomers fall off the perch; then maybe a republic / flag change agenda just may succeed.
I don’t think the passing of Queen Elizabeth will necessary hasten such events on either side of the Tasman
Our Voice Referendum later this year might be all excitement we can bear in attempting to change our Constitution.
You guys could always set the example should you wish.
@cr01 Mexico, Albania, Wales and plenty others have animals on flags.
@@Bobo-ox7fj you are the only person who thinks a dragon on a flag isnt the sickest thing you’ve seen
@@cattiemaxie7160does wales have a kiwi on their flag? Didn't think so
To be honest, I think the biggest problem here was the selection. A simple black fern should always have been an option, and to my eye, three of the four most plausible designs were not selected for the vote at all.
I agree. The fern says 'New Zealand'. Would've been cool if the flag changed to that.
Yeah but that then got compared to the isis flag
The fern was nixed by the rugby team - really!
Sadly, the silver fern on the black background trademark had been registered by the All Blacks so was not an option.
@@sapphireopinionandallegedl4358 Really? that's nuts. A white fern on black background would have been cool and would have been as distinctive as Canada's maple leaf flag. The contest winner was a compromise mish-mash of old and new.
Laser Kiwi is of course the best design, but out of the 5 final options I think option C is my favorite from a strictly aesthetic standpoint, while option E is probably the one I would have voted for since it has enough similarities to the old flag to strike a nice balance between change and consistency.
C is terrible. At that point we would be better off going with the same old silver flag fern that kiwis wave at All Blacks games instead. E is probably the best, but the blue should be changed to black in my opinion.
We SHOULD have gone with the silver fern flag. There is a reason it is waved at NZ sports events - the silver fern is one of our main national symbols! I was all for changing the flag (I still think we should - and that we should change that horrific anthem while we're at it), but the final option was just terrible.
@@Matt-fb9yy For me that Silver Fern is only associated with sport. And I don’t really care for sport myself, I generally find sport tedious. The life I enjoy in NZ features little sport beyond the news headlines.
And for all we know: In the future sport may not be important in mainstream NZ either.
But to be frank: I think the entire idea of putting national symbols on the national flag is silly anyway. The best and most iconic national flags in this world are those that are simple with simple patterns and/or geometric shapes and a few colours (preferably 3, 4 maximum). It’s the tinpot little countries that nobody cars about who have these busy flags covered in symbols.
@@danieleyre8913
'It’s the tinpot little countries that nobody cars about who have these busy flags covered in symbols.'
Let's face it, we are a tinpot little country that nobody cares about. Britain dropped us like a hot potato when they joined the EEC. That showed us our place in the world.
It didn't need to change, it's perfect exactly the way it is, as the referendum showed.
Hello, great video as always. However, the Koru isnt a wave. It's based on the shape of an unfurling fern frond.
I def vote to change the name of that flag to "Unfurling Fern Frond"
It's called a fiddlehead.
@@Gnefitisis Say what? definitely a fern frond, not a fiddle (no findle in the dictionary)
@@stephenlitten1789 Nice catch. Mate!
Akshually! 😂
kiwi laser flag was so good that it was unfair to be in the contest
Yes.
How’d you do that
agreed
@@sachemofboston3649 😮
I knew a couple of Kiwis living over here in the UK at the time. I brought this up in conversation with them about this. I thought they would be quite enthusiastic about this, but they just rolled their eyes and just made the point of 'hasn't the government got better things to do'.
Well as a Dutch Kiwi living in New Zealand I can confirm that this was John Key's way of making a name for himself after the whole Ponytail saga
As a kiwi I can confirm that is our general response to anything slightly unessential our govt does lol
My family saw it for the vanity project it really was
@@dutchgameboi2892 looks like our politicians are the same as well, albanese pushing the voice because he wants his legacy enshrined in the constitution. you shouldn't be allowed to become a career politician, it should be a side job, while you work an actual job for the most part.
they were correct of course most kiwis don't care either way
The laser kiwi is the best flag ever. As a person who has a mythical animal on my country's flag, it is a dragon if you are interested. I think the world lost out a brilliant flag.
Found the Welshman
Bhutan?
Either Bhutan or Wales I would assume
You know, of course, that the kiwi is not a mythical animal. They really exist. And I gather they're used to make shoe polish.
@@craigcorson3036 the laser kiwi is though, I’m fairly certain kiwis don’t shoot lasers out of their eyes lol
Laser kiwi is the true flag of nz
It’s a shit post flag and I like it
❤
True
It's my flag! I'd vote for it (in a heartbeat), if we ever get the chance again. Let's tell the World what we think of all this BS!
The shortlist was unsuprisingly basically what the PM had signalled he preferred, and that was the problem. While there is a nascent general desire from a lot of people in NZ for a new flag it wasn't an issue high on most peoples agenda and there isn't any consensus for what it might be. The whole flag issue pretty quickly became a politicised right vs left, liberal vs conservative argument between largely white middle class supporters of the National party vs. almost everyone else. it was widely perceived by government opponents - and the Key government was already waning in popularity - as an egotisitical exercise from John Key and it smacked of change imposed from above on a fundamental aspect of national identity. It didn't help that the only real alternative, the silver fern on a black background (the "All Blacks" flag) was conveniently dismissed early on due to very dubious copyright and sporting association (rugby being associated with some fairly unliberal thinking) reasons, despite the silver fern being used as a symbol of NZ many years before the All Blacks rugby team came along. For what it is worth, in my view the simple silver fern on black design would have probably won if it had received the official backing the eventual losing design got.
As a Kiwi, I remember the farcical nature of the whole flag changing process during that time. The panel overlooking the designs for the new flag, weren’t designers but random NZ’ers, (with no training in graphic design or how flags are designed.) The 40 options they intially chose were variations of either the southern cross, the fern or a koru spiral. It was also a vanity project for the prime minister John Key at the time. A lot of people I knew didn’t really have an appetite to change the flag, and the options that were proposed didn’t really cut the mustard. The final option with the silver fern and southern cross looks badly put together and looked like a logo for ‘NZ Inc.’ in the end, nobody wanted it to change because the option put in front of them was underwhelming at best.
Still hoping that if we become a republic, the laser kiwi will become our new national flag.
If not a national flag, then the laser kiwi could at least represent the NZ Armed Forces! Maybe add a laser eye to aircraft roundels!
Nah, I'm not a New Zealander, so my opinion doesn't really matter here, but the Union Jack is UGLY AF. The fern looks much better.
"Nobody wanted it to change". Meanwhile 43% voted for it to change. Considering, that humans tend to like something more that they already know, this is a realy high percentage.
Should’ve done the fern with the red instead of black imo it looked good and as an American I’m all for dropping union jacks lol
I thought the fern is a really cool touch tho. It clearly symbolizes the New Zealand Identity and its a very distinct feature.
I am from NZ, to put it simply we didn't change our flag because the majority of people who voted chose to retain our current flag. The referendum was certainly controversial and there were many comments on social media going on how our government were wasting $26 million on changing our flag and how that money should have been used in health or education or the homeless. There were comments how the government and the media were using the flag change to distract from the real issues in our country like the fact our government wanted to sign us up to the TPPA agreement.
In 2017 we changed the government and all hoped this would be the end of this nonsense however not, in oposition Labour were against the TPPA but still signed us up to the revised CPTPP agreement. In 2020 after Labour was re-elected with a massive majority they then started the push to rename our country from New Zealand to Aotearoa, instead this time instead of a referendum they pretty much just changed the name overnight. Our media were given $55 million dollars of printed Covid money to push this narrative of calling our country Aotearoa and also renaming most of our town and city names to their Maori equivalent. More recently there has been a push to rename our street signs to have Te Reo names.
The referendum to change the flag was not popular but at least our last government had the decency to ask the people of New Zealand whether they wanted the change or not, this current government have just made these changes by stealth.
2 corrections: It’s a silver fern, not a white fern. And the koru isn’t a wave, it’s the unfurling frond of that very same fern.
This is essentially an infomercial for why we all need ranked choice voting
From what i remember at the time polls were showing that most people wanted a new flag. The problem is that everyone wanted different things and at the end of the day its just easier to stick with what they have.
Unless consensus can be made about what the alternative should be I dont think they will change it any time soon.
Originally I don't think anybody cared and it seemed pointless but John Key(the prime minister) pushed through with it anyway so gradually people opened up to the idea of change but the nail in the coffin for it was the final few designs that we could actually choose from were lackluster and uninspiring to say the least... so we'd rather kept the current flag for now
NZ is a strange country. People there mouth off that they want some radical change or express some liberal “progressive” when asked as a reaction without thinking about it. But the more it’s looked into it; the less most Kiwis really want any change, and most change their minds. It’s the same with NZ being a monarchy. In reality New Zealand is a pretty conservative place, it is odd how so many people there can’t accept and embrace that.
As for the public consultation; that in itself was stupid. Why on earth should the general public have any input into what a new national flag should be? Most people don’t really know much about flags and (no offence) but New Zealand isn’t a land where most people have good taste and are culturally refined.
When NZ finally changes its flag (the current flag looks nice but it is becoming increasingly anachronistic); it would be wise of the government to just get a vexillologist (probably from another country) to come up with one.
What they need is a Caesar like dictator who comes into power, enforces the change of flag (the laser Kiwi ofcourse) and then fucks off to farm sheep. Democracy can never settle such things.
@@danieleyre8913 We all want change. We get pissed off, because Parliament spends its entire time doing what IT wants, not what WE want.
When we protest, they get aggressive, when we complain through proper channels as they want, they ignore it, even if panels they create to look into the issues agree with us.
The only figure in our politics they are afraid of, is the Sovereign. Which is why they want to get rid of him.
He can actually overrule them, but that only happens if the Tribes tell him to, and they can only act on Treaty issues.
The Tribes have no say on the overall decisions, as yet. Structure our politics around the Treaty, Parliament would be limited in authority. Which is why they do not want to do it.
@@shauntempley9757 Boo hoo poor Shaun, he always wants his way and the government and laws prevent him from always getting it.
Parliamentary democracy means the majority chooses who governs and runs the country, it doesn’t mean the government does what Shaun Templey wants.
This referendum cost us tax payers about 23 million dollars, money well spent
To end up with the original flag. Glad to see that the US isn't the only country that has politicians wasting taxpayers' money for some politician's ego.
I'm curious. I'm from a third world country that has far inferior facilities than NZ offers in reality.
Did these 2 million dollars get taken away from anything that would have been considered essential? If so, what are those sectors and how were they affected as a result of this sum of money being diverted away from them? Would you describe the affected facilities as average, below average, shoddy, dismal or pathetic?
I as this in all seriousness, because I live in a country where funds are regularly diverted directly to pockets of officials or to construct monuments which are used as long-term reminders of the public as to who created the said "icon" and the public is stupid enough to eat it up without realising that the country already had plenty of monuments (some that are 1000's of years old) and money could have been spent to remove the country's name from the list of poor countries.
For someone who has lived in my country and whose educated citizens dream of moving to NZ which is portrayed as having an improved standard of living, better rights and social liberties, it is surprising when someone points out that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. It raises an important question as to what really is lacking in NZ that requires money and is not being attended to?
@@rosieroti4063 NZ is not very corrupt at all, in fact is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, but there were loads of issues back then like child poverty, crime, youth suicide (highest in the OECD) that were all rising very fast
@@mapper7310 alot of issues that were in 2015 still exist in nz now unfortunately
@@mapper7310 the ambulance service was in desperate need of significant funding to bring its emergency fleet up,to date. Would have been a much better use for the money spent on the referendum.
1. The idea for a new flag was first brought up to distract from a political scandal. John Key (who later became PM) had been harrassing a cafe worker by pulling her hair on multiple occasions. He described this as an act of affection/joke, but had continued doing it even after being asked not to. This came out in the media, and everyone was thinking "WTF is up with this guy?". Soon after, John Key announced that the National Party would hold a flag-change referendum if elected. Everyone then forgot about the hair-pulling scandal and started talking about flags.
2. There was never a clear justification for change given, at least not one that withstood scrutiny. Many people claimed that we should remove the Union Jack from the design in order to distance ourselves from the Commonwealth and "Mother England", yet many of the proposed alternatives kept the exact same colours as the Union Jack. Additionally, we still weren't a republic, having Queen Elizabeth II as our Head of State.
3. The koru is not a "wave", it is a fern frond.
4. If you have another look at the koru design, you'll find that it looks like a monkey butt.
5. There was an initial short-list of four flags (not five). After selection, the koru design was found to breach intellectual property rights and removed from the short-list. The "Red Peak" design took its place. I can't remember the exact justification for Red Peak's inclusion, I recall there was talk of a legal challenge since the selection process had been so shit. I don't recall its inclusion being particularly democratic - some people made lots of noise so the government added Red Peak in at the last minute.
6. The selection process was heavily criticised. Complaints were made about the two near-identical designs being included in the short list, about only one of the four designs NOT having a silver fern, about the selection panel and their lack of design expertise, about animals not being allowed (making Laser Kiwi ineligible).
7. By the time the referendum came about (held at the same time as the general election), many considered the whole proposal to be farce, or otherwise a "vanity project" for John Key. The benefit vs cost was questioned. The referendum became somewhat of a vote on whether or not people liked John Key (many didn't).
Personally, I was open to change, but not just for the sake of it. If we're going to change the flag, we should have a clear reason for doing so, which will help guide us in designing and selecting a GOOD alternative. Changing your country's flag is something you should do seldom and carefully.
You can distance yourself anytime you like hold a referendum you can be a Republic anytime you like hold a referendum if you can do it for a flag you can surely do it for those far more important things
Missed on a chance to have a laser kiwi flag, who's a monkey butt now?
The red, white and blue are the colours of Christendom, those colours are not just British, though they have been made famous by the British.
Don't go down the road that Canada took. We wound up with a ghastly red (dying) maple leaf in the colors of the "Liberal" party.
You missed the driving factor being that this was the vanity project of a prime minister who had done nothing to leave a positive legacy and really, really wanted to be remembered.
It was not about a public demand for change, it was one narcissist trying to guarantee a place in history.
This is what is happening now in India with inaugration of new parliament building. A PM who is afraid of public debates, who avoids public speaking unless it is scripted.
Was it not a campaign promise as stated in the video?
Well he failed horribly because nobody remembers him, just the flags
You can discern four Christian symbols in the NZ flag. Key probably didn't like it. He's Jewish
@@gammaphonic It was a campaign promise so Key can claim that at least, yes. Imo it was still a lot of silly vanity and nonsense regardless. Sort of like if someone said 'vote for me and I'll give you A, B and C things you love! Oh and also we'll have a referendum on whether cereal or toast are the nation's Favorite Breakfast'.
NZ Government: "So what style of fern do you guys want on the new flag?"
NZ Public: *"NEEDS MORE LASER KIWI"*
Some former colonies that became independent as monarchiies, and joined the Commonwealth subsequently became republics, but still remain in the Commonwealth. Oh, and Fiji, which is now a repubo, has retained its flag with the Union Flag canton.
The heck is a repubo?
@@serronserron1320 It's when your pubic hair starts to grow back after shaving it all off and it's just itchy stubble.
@@marks.3303 well I hate that especially if I get erect
They know what a good looks like, good taste.
The flag of Hawaii has the Union Jack on it !
I remember a lot of people talking about how the questions they asked were the wrong ones, which lead to a lot of wasted money. I know that a lot of people voted for the old flag despite being open to changing, because they didn't like the new design. It's a shame that they never thought to ask the simple question of "Are you open/interested in changing the flag?" especially considering how much money they spent on the process!
I was okay with changing the flag but ended up voting to keep the current one. I didn’t want a glorified sports logo as the flag for my country. I initially didn’t like the red peak design but once I learned about the symbolism in it that was the one I wanted. However, in my social circle it was seen as a vanity project for John Key, the prime minister at the time. There hadn’t been a grass roots movement for the change and there were more pressing issues that those resources used for the referendum should have been used for.
Totally agree. It felt like a vanity project for John Key, hence why I voted for no change. I think a lot of left wing people felt similarly.
@@galois6569
Why don't you just admit that you like the Union Jack?
@@cometmoon4485 Honest I don't like it, but if we are going to change it then I think we should also leave the common wealth. Also we don't want to change the flag twice, so if we chose a new one there should be more thought put into it than just a selection given to people by a committee.
Kiwi here. I feel like most people at the time felt it was a waste of time and money. That said, government inefficent/wasted spending feels like a really common theme here. It generated a lot of talk, but that's about all.
I was keen on the country getting a new flag.
But then I saw what was proposed as the new flag, and decided to stick with the existing one. It may be a bit outdated and blah blah, but at least it loo’s like a proper flag should.
@@danieleyre8913 was kyle Lockwood john keys ai
Was the money really wasted? It was all spent within the country on advertising, printing, promotion, postage etc. New Zealanders were invited to participate and many businesses would have benefitted.
@@jasperhorace7147 Ah yes. It was a complete and utter unproductive waste of money.
@@jasperhorace7147 Rather it be funded towards Doc or education or infrastructure (as terribly inefficent as they are with that one). All the money would have also stayed in the country.
I voted for Red Peak in the first round and didn't vote in the second one, because I knew what the outcome would be, but I would have voted to keep the old design. My reasoning being that the new one just looked too much like a corporate logo. It's no surprise that the PM at the time favoured one of the two Kyle Lockwood designs (the black variant, I believe), and he came from a corporate background. However, my family have a strong history with the military, and I was fully aware that this was a flag that would have to, one day, be draped over a dead service person's casket, and I didn't think it looked appropriate in that context. I have no personal opposition to changing the flag, I just felt the design was too bad, and the whole process was rushed. This sort of discussion would be better taken over a number of years, where a new design can breathe a bit. Also, as you mentioned, the correct time to change the flag might be if we become a republic.
With my personal feelings out of the way, I think it largely failed because it was never a popular idea. It was something promised by a fairly polarising PM, the people who liked him really liked him, but there were a lot of people who didn't like him. He also went against his own party's base of conservative voters, many of whom would not vote to change. Meanwhile, a lot of progressive people, who might support a change, voted no because they didn't like the PM. Other factors to consider, no single replacement design had universal appeal and the referendum was seen as an expensive boondoggle by many.
Red peak was the least bad option of the 4. Having a fern on a national banner is an idiotic idea for so many reasons.
But let’s be honest red peak was still an eyesore. The colours clash, the triangle looks silly…
I think that's the best summation in this comment section.
IMO it should have been the silver fern with black background. We already fly this flag at every sports event and it is instantly recognized as New Zealand. I feel it already symbolizes us as a nation without excluding anyone.
As a South African I remember being very confused at the time why that flag wasn't included in the referendum. It is the best flag by some margin.
@@Cybernum2 It's a trademarked symbol unfortunately lol
@@facepalm7345 I assumed it was probably a copyright issue.
It was my favorite too but It was because of ISIS john key thought the flag would get confused with the ISIS flag I don't know why a moron could tell the difference
In 2015 there was another black flag with white, showing up regularly on the evening news. Just unfortunate timing that the black flag choice coincided with ISIS (remember them?)
Once pointed out, it couldn't be unseen.
Im Aussie and like that Australia & New Zealand share similar flags ✨😎
Yeah kiwis should be jealous, australian flag has more stars.
They proposed a very nice flag for Australia, the golden flower on green.
Imagine wanting a foreigner on your own flag.
😎
We were first you Aussies copied us
Canada had a similar colouring contest in the 60s which mostly lacked support from the general populace. That did not stop the PM though who put his personal design for the flag in the final running. Many of our provinces immediately after the adoption of the current Maple Leaf flag changed their provincial flags back to British red ensign flags in protest.
The Canadian flag is however excellent and iconic, compared to this mess.
Canadian province s never changed their flags back to the british ensign, only Manitoba, Ontario have the ensign , in fact Newfoundland and Nunavut have very modern flags . Only Ontario who think they think they are the centre of the universe and are not, they are really the toilet of Canada still live in colonial times. The maple leaf is know worldwide like the south African flag. As for NZ it is up to them to decide what they wish.
@@DAVEG-t4t The South African flag is known around the commonwealth due to sporting connections. Its certainly not a memorable flag it just gets lost in all the other African flags.
@@DAVEG-t4tI consider myself a flag guy and had to pause to remember which flag is South Africa.
@@telstar4772 "My source is that I made it the fuck up"
Flags C and D look the coolest in my opinion. We also don’t really get black and white flags so would be really unique and instantly recognisable.
Edit: That being said though, lazer kiwi takes the cake….
That's because until pretty recently flying a black flag at sea would get you fired upon pretty much instantly lol
🤔lol. Black and white flags? ISIS? Maybe?
@@rocksandforestquiver959 that’s true
@@rocksandforestquiver959 Lol didn't think about it 😅
Tbh i liked option 'A' over the old flag, but i think 'A' would look better with a darker blue like 'E' or the old flag has.
Also alot of people wanted a variant of option 'C' where the fern was all white and the background was all black, but there was worry of legal problems with the rugby team so they avoided it despite it being extremely popular in the country outside of sports.
E would be best if the blue was black.
We could just do what Ireland did with the Guiness harp and mirror the fern from left to right to right to left.
@@caad5258 Ireland’s flag is a tricolour.
The A flag was the best, other than laser kiwi, of course
@@danieleyre8913 their coat of arms is the Guiness harp flipped
Thank you for making this video, I really loved this referendum. It’s also something many people don’t know about, and is a great opportunity to teach people about New Zealand’s National Symbolism.
The problem with replacing a flag is it has been a symbol for decades. People got buried beneath one fought for it and so on. That makes replacing it a very emotional deal. The high percentage for replacement surprised me as the protest here turning the flag upside down got a lot of negative reactions.
The big problem with the fern or the wave is that they are way too detailed to look good as a country flag. They look like a sports team flag or a company logo or something. Even the Union Jack, while looking complex, really is just some very simple crosses overlaid on each other, with a very specific meaning.
The triangle one looked sort of OK, but the strange aspect ratio made it feel weird. I also think it would look better with only black or only blue. 2 colors is best, 3 is perfectly fine. 4 and it looks like you can't decide what to put on the flag.
I disagree the Seychelles flag has 5 colours and looks good imo
Seychelles and South Africa flags are both decent imo, but I think something about the lack of horizontal symmetry allows the flags to look good even with more colours. As if there's something in our brains that, when confronted with (horizontally) symmetrical shapes, expects to see symmetrical colours as well.
The refererendum didnt pass because:
A: They had a committee who pretty much wanted to play it safe and so they chose 4 mediocre choices. Red peak was added later, and was probably the most 'flag' looking choice.
B: There wasn't overwhelming demand for a new flag. It was pretty much John Key's vanity project.
C: Most kiwis identify the white fern on a black background as their symbol of national identity. It would have been interesting to see how this design would have done if added to the choices.
I think B might be overstated.
@@AholeAtheist why do you think so?
I don't agree with the white fern on black. To me it's the All Blacks logo and I have no interest whatsoever in rubgy. Maybe a fern in a different colour?
“Mediocre” is an understatement. Let’s be honest: All four shortlisted choices were bloody eyesores!
I would’ve happily voted for a new flag that actually looked good.
I also have to disagree with your point C. The silver fern for me is just a sport thing. It doesn’t have any sacred meaning for me. And to be frank; I think it is foolish to have any national symbols on the national banner to begin with. The best most iconic flags are those with simple geometric designs (like tricolours), not something busy with symbols like some tinpot banana republic…
@@kiwiscribe I’d prefer No stylised fern whatsoever.
Nor any symbols whatsoever. No stylised Kiwi. No southern cross constellation. No kowhai flowers. No Maori Koru nor Tiki face.
Just a simple geometric arranging of colours and/or basic shapes please. And 4 colours maximum (preferably only 3).
Hello Hilbert. I had to give a talk on Australia and the Australia flag, many years back, in school as a little kid on Commonwealth Day. It became obvious the differences and the similarities to the New Zealand flag. To me, even if there was no similar flag, the NZ one looks really good. The fact that the countries are tied by their history, such as with the ANZACS makes the similar flags seem special.
I commented before on how I loved flag history from being that little kid looking at flags and maps. I also loved that countries had symbols, like the fern. It seems a pity to me to mix the two to seem more modern and lose the history.
Having said that, I like the Canadian flag, but they had been looking for a unifying flag long ago, Canadian history being somewhat different.
I suppose the question is - should the public be given a say? Or just leave it to politicians? Canada removed the Union Jack from its flag in the 1960s and I don't suppose the people had a say. I think the maple leaf flag looks pretty good, but it is a nice easy thing to reproduce. A five year old child could paint a Union Jack. but at that age I think I'd give up if asked to paint every petal of a fern leaf!
@@rogink I was the sort of annoying kid who would have painted the fern, told you every city and population and drawn the map, showing them and all the rivers.
That is why I keep suggesting Ripping Yarns episode Eric Olthwaite on TH-cam comments well as the follow up, Golden Gordon.
Mind you, once my mates got me down the pub for a few beers, they said I was a different lad. I sometimes wonder if me winning the team eight pints for the pub quiz each week might have had something to do with it though? Those flags and cities and countries came in useful after all.
New Zealand and Australia are some of the youngest nations in the world.
Both countries are very similar and still defining their cultural identities within our international community.
The fact that both countries are still colonies of Britain makes the flag debate a moot point.
@@victoriarose9802I am interested where you are from, to have this opinion? From my perspective in UK, both countries have already distinct cultures, though being a Rugby League fan from the beer drinking, pie eating, no nonsense, suspicious of authority north of England, I will leave it to you to work out which seems more like my own.
@@alansmithee8831 I suspect that you are from either Manchester or Liverpool. This isn't cricket, so I'll just leave you to make your own assumptions about the British colonies!
From NZ. And I laughed when you said the more conservative party didn't want it changed when it was their leader's (at the time) idea. There was many reasons we didn't want it changed. Most of us thought it was a waste of tax payers money. We all knew it was John Key trying to put his stamp in New Zealand history, and his bid at a legacy. Yes if felt really disrespectful to our veterans that died for our country under the original flag. New Zealand always celebrates ANZAC day, which is the day we remember those that sacrificed themselves for our freedom. So the rising of the flag is an important part of that day. Plus it was also disrespectful to remove the union jack as that is a symbol of our ties to the monarch and the crown. That would have been a political disaster. I know there's alot of people in New Zealand that dispise the crown, it's a nasty debate people have now and then. But there's also the people that respect the crown. It was sad when Queen Elizabeth II passed, it felt like the world lost it's grandmother. that referendum really felt like it was disrespecting her as well when she was alive. Plus no one really liked the Don-key (man i haven'tsaid that in a long time 😂😂😂😂). What when we voted to not change the flag he had a tantrum and quite. Which left our country in a weird state of limbo.
So yah there's alot of history around our flag. Also Australia copied our flag, they should have changed their one not us. What they are forever claiming things New Zealand made as theirs.
I mean also the new flags sucked ass. Nobody actually liked the new designs, they were just kinda... tolerated.
Also to clarify, we in NZ don't have a polarised 'conservative' vs 'liberal' political party structure and the Americans or British would recognise.
The two major NZ parties are both very centrist and only vary slightly to the left and right in different individual policies, rather than overall political perspectives.
Having an MMP system here we have a bunch of minor parties who each only poll around the 1-5% mark themselves but are politically important in decisionmaking.
amen to that
Have to agree with everything you say in this. You are right on . . . being a kiwi and living in New Zealand; all that you say was the reason why I voted to keep what we had. There will come a time when we move further away from Britain. When that happens we can remove the British ensign, and leave it with the blue background representing the Pacific and four red stars representing the Southern Cross that steered All HUMANS to our amazing country at the bottom of the world.
grow up no one cares about the crown circus anymore
As others have pointed out, as a kiwi, the main reason it didn't change was because appetite for change was virtually nonexistent, at least so far as I saw. Looking at Wikipedia, less than half the voting population even voted in the first referendum (the order of which was criticized by the opposition, as it really should have FIRST been the question "do we want the flag changed" but the first referendum was for which of the 5 shortlisted flags would be preferred). If you look at news coverage of people being interviewed, the most common response from the public was not giving a shit.
The proposal was seen as what it was - a 26 million dollar vanity project for Prime Minister John Key, who wanted to rehabilitate his image after people started noticing the guy was a bloody creep who pulled ponytails, and a distraction from issues his government had created, such as privatization of state assets and the housing crisis we are still dealing with. According to some, Key stacked the panel who chose the shortlist to deliver his and his Cabinet's preferred ones, and it came out that some members of the panel had conflicts of interest, and none of them had any experience in design of any sort, let alone vexillology. Additionally, the shortlisted four flags were kinda shite. They were frequently compared to corporate logos, and accurately too! There are photographs people took of them being identical to branding on some products. A fifth design was preferred by some people (namely the design community and practically nobody else), the Red Peak design, which ALSO turned out to already be a company logo as I recall.
And that's me saying that as someone who does think we ought to not be so attached to the UK! But I do believe that at the moment, changing the flag to get rid of the Union flag would be nothing but posturing. It would be an empty gesture unless it came with ACTUAL commitment to leaving that colonial legacy, which you'll never get from a right wing National government because they consistently wish to keep ignoring the Treaty of Waitangi and all that crap - National and the right wing are invested in continuing that colonial legacy. It was a waste of money spent on a meaningless vanity project for a failing government.
Edit, also because I just got reminded: Very few of the designs even reflected our national colours, and those that did did not get into the shortlist - our national colours are red black and white, which the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is in. Two of the designs were just black and white which is more associated with sports here, and the others all kept the blue.
Red black and white are Maori colours, not national colours. Only 17% of NZ is Maori.
@@kennethmacalpin7655 Yes... and they were made our national colours by the Queen in 1975, do pay attention past your own racism.
The Union Jack does not make me think of British rule. It makes me think of my heritage-ancestors from Scotland and England. I think a lot of NZers think like this.
Exactly agreed. The UK has never proper ruled Aus/NZ compared to other "places" of the world. Aus/NZ were basically the babies of the family; they always did whatever they want, while the elder of the family US became the most powerful thing the world has ever known in recorded history.
Do the Scottish rock their British rulers? What about the Highlander? What about how the Romans built Hadrians wall because the Scott’s were so badass? Seems weird to think the Scott’s would so happily rock the umbrella of Britain
I remember this at primary school we all made new designs and sent them in and we got updates throughout the year. I think it was cool lessons on how democracy works and that eventually we all would have the ability to have a say in this sort of thing. As for my flag design I imagine it was magenta cyan and covered in robots. I think it was a waste of money now as it didn’t change. Perhaps if it was a question in a general election that asked if we even wanted to consider changing it.
school taught everyone about democracy and voting yet we never realised it.
who was your school captain? and was it because they were popular, or because they would make a good captain?
strange how the same applies in real life... are we voting politicians in because they are popular, or because they do a good job?
and how do these people get nominated in the first place? was it a unanimous decision or did they jump up and say "pick me pick me?" i have no idea where any of these canditates we vote for come from, they just appear and then for some reason we vote on appearance rather than performance...
not that voting does anything, mind...
if voting worked, it would be illegal. good old samuel clemens.
at no point , under any circumstances, should anyone that wants to lead, ever be in the position to lead. dougie adams.
The Koru is a stylised young fern frond from traditional Maori art.
As a kiwi connection with my family history is my personal reason for wanting to keep the old flag but I respect other different feeling, especially maori. Secondly it felt very 'top down' the government was really trying to push national identity formation rather than a ground swell, I know it can be done like in cannada but i would want a more symbolic context if we are to change the flag to provide more meaning and feel less cooperate logo. Lastly on the confusion with the aus flag, I get it but lots of countries are way more similar, see everyone using the tricolor especially.
I agree - there didn't seem to be any public desire for change until it was raised by John Key. Seemed manipulated to me.
exactly, african flags in west africa all have red, yellow and green because of ethiopia, central american flags have similar flags do to being united at some point, flags have history you cant just make one and make the people vote on it
Maori have two flags they tend to use. The more recent Maori Sovereignty flag and the older flag of the United Tribes of NZ.
@@rarekev9332 Although the submissions came from the people. And the people had the right to choose it instead of the leader and picking it themselves without any save from the citizens.
Canadian flag is shit it's a leaf.
0:32 one of the main reasons is a certain prime minister wanted to have a legacy
Stats fail at 3:50 : just because option A beat option B in the second round having come second in round 1 *doesn't* mean "some of the people who voted for B changed their view". The losing design went from 41 to 49.
For what you're saying to be possible, the losing flag would have needed a lower % of the vote than in round 1.
What you mean to say is "the previously less liked design picked up more votes from the first set of designs". Not surprising: all the excluded designs featured black, and so did the eventual winner. People obviously wanted that more than red. Makes sense in NZ.
Great vid tho, thanks 😊
a New Zealander volunteer in Ukraine used the Kiwi laser flag when an international group was photographed displaying their nations flags...
LOL
Truly is doing god's work. :)
Have you ever thought of making alternate history videos I think you would be quite good at it
LONG LIVE THE LASER KIWI this is the video I've been waiting for thank you from NZ 🤣❤️
Also, no one wanted to spend all the money needed to change the flag and it just felt like one big play-along drawing competition for the whole country 🤷♀️
0:35 not to be crass but how do you confuse something that has seven side stars to an all red five side star flag?
I remember the brouhaha here in Canada in the 1960s when we changed our flag. It’s a divisive, difficult process.
As a Kiwi, I chose option E but Red Peak is a close second. Option A had a terrible colour of blue. However since maturing more, I would prefer to keep our current flag.
Interesting you use the word "maturing"... why is that?
Fk the union jack
LOL
As a Kiwi I initially was open to changing the flag.
But air changed my mind as soon as they narrowed down to the final four. They were all so hideous that I decided to just keep the current one. It may be a bit anachronistic but at least it looks like a flag should…
I know right, why couldn't they just use the old blue for that flag too? The one they chose is awful
The funny thing is that a flag that is often used (on car's licence plates) is the current flag but with the union jack removed and the southern cross centralised, with no changes to the colours used. I wish this had been on the referendum at the time, I honestly think it would've won if it had been.
Nah. It looks lame and it would’ve got rejected.
I want a new flag that’s a complete break. No red white & blue, no stylised constellations (nor symbols at all).
@Inotamarshmellow You mean the current flag we have now just the black n white version that you see on some "European style" licence plates??
I think if NZ really wanted to differentiate themselves from Aus (even though I don't think it's hard to tell the two apart, even hanging limp the commonwealth star is always visible and a dead giveaway) the best solution would really be to just change the shade of blue to a lighter one, sort of like fiji or the short-lived Rhodesian one, which was a less brilliant blue than Fiji. The Rhodesian shade would be best since that flag no longer exists but Fiji's does and is basically turquoise, not sky blue.
Changing the NZ flag to something different to the Australian one will just mean that instead of mistaking it for the Australian flag: They instead won’t have a clue what it is…
The problem is huge and unsolvable as Austrailia copied NZ and being of criminal background will admit nothing. We are inclined let it go while thrashing them at any sport that matters in revenge.
@@kevinansley7353 The only sport NZ can thrash Australia in is rugby, which doesn’t matter. And maybe yachting, which isn’t even a major sport in NZ. In football NZ is even worse than Australia.
I like that the two flags are similar as our countries are still relatively similar.
@@damionkeeling3103 New Zealand and Australia are inevitably becoming decreasingly similar.
The blue and black fern wasn't preferred to red and blue. It was selected as the referendum used a single transferrable vote and it was the most popular second choice.
1: New Zealanders were never actually asked whether we WANTED a new flag. Instead of asking "which of these 40 flags do you like?" the first question should've been "Do you want a new flag?" Millions of dollars were wasted and all we learnt was that most NZer's preferred the old flag over the "new" flag
2: People saw it as a vanity project for John Key the prime minister.
3: The inclusion of the Red Peak design after the initial vote showed that the process was not exactly free from interference from certain groups who felt they knew better than the "commoners'.
4: The timing was bad as we were approaching the 100 year anniversary of World War 1, a large part of New Zealand's identity was forged at Gallipoli and the Western front, and some felt that it was disrespectful to the people who had fought and died under the 'old flag' to have it changed at this time.
"And it's not that we are committed to a faded Imperial dream/ We've the stars to say where we're going. The old flag is to say where we've been."
"... The old flag is to say where we've been." - this could justify Germany's flag having certain symbols too
@@rosieroti4063 Only if the nation in question wished to declare that its ideals included what it had been under those symbols.
@@puffin51 Indeed. Germany is an exception because of its war history.
@@rosieroti4063 So you must think that NZ has a similar history to Germany! What a grotesque ahistorical comment.
@@willx9352 So you mus think that's the only takeaway from my comment! What a grotesque waste of time your education has been.
I'm not gonna lie most of the options look pretty good although the laser eyes is just too iconic.
As a linguist I am very interested in the way young British people are gradually moving over to speak what is basically American English without the accent. I note that you pronounce the years using the American system of numbers leaving out the word 'and'. You say 'two thousand fifteen' rather than 'two thousand and fifteen'. Come to think of it that's already quite unusual. It's more normal to say 'twenty fifteen'. Nevertheless, I notice another young Briton using vocabulary/structures which are American. Fascinating.
Isn't he Dutch?
Don't think he's British but your main point stands - our youth are terribly Americanised (with an S and not a Zeee 😂).
Is that the Bike Race soundtrack in the background? Nice.
Did you actuslly talk to any new Zealanders when making this video? A lot of us voted against the new design because it would be a waste of time and money to change it, and we didn't like the (at least perceived if not actual) reasoning for this all coming up, which was for the pm to have their pet project.
There's a lot of missing perspective here, Hilbert. Next time, just reach out to a few Kiwis if you want to do a video about us. A few really important points you missed:
• The New Zealand flag's design is the original. The Australian flag is modelled on our flag. Why should we change ours?
• The Silver Fern is heavily associated with sports, and most kiwis didn't want a sports logo on the national flag.
• While everyone was invited to submit designs, the select committee had an agenda to nominate a certain design. The lack of variation in the final round felt hypocritical.
• Most kiwis I know saw this whole thing as a distraction from other political problems of the time, and a legacy project for the then-PM John Key.
• A little while before the final vote, the War Memorial was opened, which commemorated the many soldiers who'd died under our flag. That really brought home how tone-deaf and ultimately pointless the whole idea of a flag change was.
A lot of Kiwis I know wanted the flag to change! Including myself. Was a bit of a kick in the guts when all that money was spent & it never happened :(
@@leesilvia4590 It's a bit different for a family that has a member serving in the military. That flag really means something important. But I understand your frustration.
"The New Zealand flag's design is the original. The Australian flag is modelled on our flag. Why should we change ours?" Wrong. Look up the Australasian Anti-Transportation League Flag, this is really the first of the southern cross design flags and was used in Australia first. Therefore NZ is a variation of a flag already used in Australia, and any other variations could also be credited to the original which was from Australia
That is something Kiwis believe and often tell themselves, but it is a Kiwi myth to feel better. The NZ flag is not the original and Australia did not copy NZ. Its just not true
@@chileo1 Go look it up, The Australian flag was chosen from a flag competition in 1901, from 5 nearly-identical designs from different applicants. The New Zealand flag, on the other hand, was designed by Admiral Albert Hastings Markham in 1869. Because of different flag designs being used after that, the NZ government adopted the flag as official in 1901, after the New Zealand Ensign bill was proposed in 1900 - a year before the Aussie competition. It was approved by King Edward VII in 1902. The Aussie flag, on the other hand, wasn't approved by the king until 1903, and the final design as we see it today wasn't adopted until 1908. And in fact, one of the winning applicants was a New Zealand sailor, William Stevens, who thought that if Australia and New Zealand were to become a single Commonwealth entity, that it would be easier if they had similar flags.
I still think the best one they had that never made the shortlist was the Black Jack as it covered everything that makes NZ. The Union Jack in the corner was done in Maori style, the field was black and retained the southern cross. Such a shame.
To be honest, I can see why the flag didn't change. It's been the flag of New Zealand ever since it gained it's independence from the empire and it's the flag most people would associate with the country
Because most New Zealanders didn’t get sucked in to the mind manipulation project
I have a question for the kiwis and australians who are in the comment section
Dont you guys think the existence of the union jack in your respective flags symbolise the dark history of your country when you were subjugated and possibly oppressed and that a new flag would represent your freedom and independence?
Referendums were really part of the zeitgeist back then mid 10's hey.
I’m a kiwi and I really dislike our current flag. The Union Jack needs go. Perhaps when NZ becomes a republic.
I think it's important to remember that a lot of people considered this referendum a joke / a last gasp of the national party's popularity (the PM resigned the next year & they lost the next election) so the final result being higher in favour of the alternative than predicted doesn't indicate (to me) that it actually *was* any more popular, just that people didn't bother voting.
I never had any time for John Key and his corporatist and pro-China government nor the nasty Nat’s in general.
But I was very open to change the flag, who the PM happened to be never even crossed my mind. However what made me change my mind about changing the flag was the final 4 options the “panel” narrowed it down to. They were all bloody dreadful and utterly unsuitable for a flag. So I voted to keep the old one.
The PM resigned after Trump won, possibly because that meant the official end of the TPP which was widely opposed in NZ but promoted by Key.
@@damionkeeling3103 The TPP was “widely opposed” in NZ?
I don’t remember that. I only remember much in the way of opposition from the usual conspiracy nuts.
This is literally not true at all, National still would have won the 2017 election if it weren't for 'Jacindamania'.
@@damionkeeling3103 Key was a twat but the TPP definitely was not widely-opposed lmao.
The problem with the referendum is that it asked the wrong questions. The first one should be if the public wanted to change the flag first. Then start with the design competition. All the same flag design with the old flag to be voted in the preferential voting system
they could've used the same shade of blue on the proposed flag. the lighter colour looks like it was the blue found on ms paint.
The new one looked good, elegant with the black and the lighter blue.
When you want to replace a flag, first hold the vote to determine if the public wants to replace the flag before you go through the effort of designing 10,000 flags.
laser-eyed kiwis a weapon to surpass the Emu.
Modern attempts at flags look like sports club or shopping centre logos.
NZ missed the opportunity to have one of the coolest flags in the world, what a shame.
Now we're back to confusing with Australia.
Lazer Kiwi should've won, can't believe it didn't even make it to the top
Sad
Missed opportunity
Somewhere in a alternate timeline it did become the flag
all the designs aside from red peak just looks terrible from a flag design standpoint. whoever designed them put more effort on including references and not on how good the flag actually looks. this doesnt mean red peak is better than the old flag, its way too simplistic and the colors give a silicon valley tech corporation logo vibe instead of looking like a flag.
Red peak also looks terrible.
@@danieleyre8913 its the only one that even remotely look like a proper flag. i never said that it looks good
@@darren8608 I agree that it looks the most like a flag. But it still looks terrible.
I did think it was funny at the time how when it came out; there was suddenly this surge of support for it that was bigger than any of the dopey fern flags, so Key had to pull strings to include it. So much for the popularity of having a fern on the flag, it really only represents muppet sports fans.
@@danieleyre8913 lmao
1:15 is my choice. Just some notes; The Australian flag is a copy of the New Zealand flag. Given that Australia is more likely to become a republic, it's they who must change, leaving NZ with its simple and effective design.
If New Zealand became a republic that doesn't mean it ceases to be a member of the Commonwealth. Many republics belong to the Commonwealth, India being an example. What would happen is NZ would cease to be a realm of His Majesty and no longer have him as its head of state.
Laser kangaroo guys
Ummmm.
Hawaii still has the Union Jack on it and it is not even a country. Whether a flag represents a republic or not is irrelevant.
@@dannyarcher6370 The flag usually reflects the entity that it represents. We are talking flags, not what a country is, but on that point Hawaii is a country. However, it chooses to belong to the USA and thus subordinates itself to that federal structure. Don't understand this point? Consider Delaware, according to you it wouldn't be a country, but if that is the case, how come companies registered in Delaware and subject to its laws alone, operate freely outside of the US and only Delaware courts can hear matters concerning it.
@@kenhorlor5674 The old flag of my republic, South Africa, was composed of FOUR former states' flags, two being constitutional monarchies (including the UK), and two republics.
My point, since you asked, is that being a republic does not necessarily lead to the removal of founding states' flags on the new republic's flag.
Fiji is a republic which maintains the Union Jack on its flag.
You also appear to know nothing about the autonomy of US states. Hawaii is not a country. No referendum on independence would be recognised by the federal government.
Australia isn’t going to become a republic anytime soon.
The word "simplistic" is *always* an insult to an idea or concept.
Because it is defined as ignoring important aspects of an issue.
@0:30 i was having a freakout in my head, thinking i have been mixing up the flags in my head for years.....
I've always thought that when designing a national flag the key thing is that a 7 year old should be able to draw it. Anything more complicated will not catch on.
I still can't draw my national flag
Those 5 alternative flags are all really bold, striking, designs IMO. But then they wouldn't have been my flag, so it's not my decision.
I see the people of NZ remain based
I agree with many others that the main reason this failed was that it was seen as a John Key vanity project. Two corrections to the video however: (i) the koru represents an unfurling silver fern frond, not a wave, and (ii) most Commonwealth countries are *already* republics.
Need to get your facts right Hilbert, the Koru is not a wave, its a baby fern frond unfurling. All the Kiwi's I know said they were as long overdue as Australia when it comes to giving back the Jack on our flags and designing our own, but at the time they were all so cynical about the final designs put forward and didn't care because it was a pantomime created to distract everyone's concern on how insanely expensive the real estate market had become, the growing gangs and crime rate and number of homeless people there were.
While the flags of New Zealand and Australia have similar design, the difference between that of Monaco and Indonesia is only the aspect ratio. Not to mention Chad and Romania, lol.
To me they don't really seem soooo similar. Australia's has a very big star "out of place", not to mention the different star colours
The out of place star is known as the Commonwealth star, meant to symbolise Australia as a federation, with 7 points, 6 of them are for 6 the states and one for the territories.
@@yuvrajshah1158 Australia has two territories the NT and ACT now so the 7 points is out of date. The NT was part of South Australia at one stage. The ACT exists because Australia could not workout to make Melbourne or Sydney the capital.
@@kienhwengtai8113 Australia has something like 14 territories. The seventh point represents them all.
A great point, theres so many worse examples that nobody ever talks about. I wonder why?
I was looking forward to having a new flag, but all of the possible alternatives were total eyesores. After seeing the options, I quickly changed my mind and I'm happy the majority had enough senses to keep the original flag.
The Black And White Furn Flag Best
As a New Zealander I think the new design probably would have one if it had used the same colour tone of blue from the old flag
The shade of blue that was chosen on the new design was too close to the colour associated to one
of the two major political parties
Which anyone that had a ideological disagreement with that party would’ve voted against that flag
If we use the colour from the old flag it would’ve been politically neutral and I think that would’ve Changed the results
even though Zack shades of colours on flags are not super relevant because they Fade and change with the weather but the exact colour tones that are used in the render have massive perception connotations
And there was another large aspect to the final flag not being accepted there was quite a lot of mistrust about the reasoning of having the referendum being something to distract voters from other issues that had were being pushed through an urgency in the parliament
So I was just seen by a lot of people as a distraction technique from what they perceive were the real issues so they voted against it in principle
And so the confusion between NZ and Aussie flags continues, thanks NZ. The black with white fern would have looked representative instead of the knockoff. And before I get the, it was our flag first argument. This design first appeared in Victoria as a naval design. Furthermore the Australian flag was copyrighted first.
True. Kiwis believe a myth they were the first to have such a design lol
I'm not from new zealand, but I would've gone for the swirl design. Maybe with the red white blue color scheme. That would be one of the most unique designs for a flag in the world. Also it'd be nice for new zealand to have a flag that actually represents _new zealand_ and not just the UK.
How does the current flag JUST represent the UK Victor?
Please enlighten us.
@@adamdriver1016 It's literally just a British ensign with a Southern Cross.
@@_blank-_ ie The NZ flag. Not the British flag.
@@adamdriver1016 Which parts of the flag represent people in NZ who are not descendent from British settlers?
@@victorconway444 The whole flag!
They came to NZ to seek a better, safer and descent life. NZ offered them this.
This very flag represents them now!
Canada here. I remember, from when I was a kid, the Commonwealth Games were held in Christchurch. At that time, the flag that was designed for the games became quite popular and New Zealanders started saying that it would make a good replacement for the current flag. Part of the television coverage was a story about the flag and peoples reaction to it. Was that flag part of the competition?
No, that "NZZN" flag wasn't considered - probably because it looks too much like a logo.
Just checked the flag out, I think it looks really cool lol
It looks like a modernized nazi svastika to me. 😲
I think the mistake was voting AFTER the designs were chosen, which meant that 3 out of 5 were largely unpopular. If if they use voting to shortlist the designs and proceed from there then all 5 of them will be popular and any one design will be suitable.
2:17 is my favourite New Zealand flag design
The new design with the black is a far superior flag. The original flag is just meh.