As always, this was my first stop after receiving the notice from Leica. Chris’s review is right on point. I think the M11-P will appeal, first of all, to owners of earlier generations who were specifically waiting for this model, as well as to owners of the M11M or M11 who were waiting to add a second body. There is a tradition of offering professional (P) variants, and I am certain this one will fare very well, especially as the M11 is viewed as a major step forward.
Just adding a note on the digital right protection. The objective is mainly to prevent fake images and being able to trace back the story of the picture. But it is more for the end consumer to be able to verify that as anybody could take the picture and make it a normal JPEG (I think, I haven't read the spec, it may be possible to embedded some of the digital signature in the rendering of the picture (steganography)...
C2PA is more about preventing fake pictures than protecting against unauthorized use. It’s the newspaper editorial ability to make sure the picture has not been modified in such a way that it creates a misleading reality. Like adding content that didn’t exist in the original shot, or removing content that changes the meaning of the event. This is so important in today’s world of fake news.
I hope that Leica has finally managed to address the freeze issues of the M11 and M11 Monochrom. I had to return my M11 after a while because it was simply unbearable that the camera kept freezing constantly.
Did you use a UHS-2 SD card? I’ve had my M11 for about half a year and have had maybe one issue with lock up, but a quick battery pull fixed it. Might just be luck of the draw
That startup time is one of the reasons I still love my M240 over the latest generation. If you turn on classic light metering with no live view option, the startup time is considerably less. BUT, in actuality, even on the M11, you can turn it on, bring it to your eye, focus and by the time you've done all that, it's ready to shoot. A lot of my mirrorless cameras may start up faster, but you have to wait to focus until it's on...in the end they all got you a picture (from fully off to on) in about the same time, with the M240 still edging the others out.
I have a Q3 and with the first firmware update, startup time went from 3.5 sec to 1 second. So Leica knows how to do this with a 60MP camera. Granted, very different cameras but it seems with the Q3, the camera has more "prep" to do at startup due to autofocus, EVF, etc. C'mon Leica.
did Leica at least make the top plate made of brass this time? the reason i didn't go with the black M11 was because i prefer the brass...and i think Leica went cheap by going with aluminum.
Every video from this guy I am blown away at the aperture’s he uses.. I hardly change mine as much as he does.. seeing f11 on a picture of a human is so left field for me
Thank you for (quickly) answering a question that I’d not seen answered. Terrific that posting to social media will NOT strip out that Content Authentication information!!! Right on.
The REAL question is did Leica fix the freezes, misaligned RF’s out of a new box, etc? Can add all of the features they want but there going to keep chasing away new and existing customers if they don’t address these issues.
I adore Leica cameras.. the shooting experience is incredible..(I am not nuts about the colours tho) It frustrates me that they always find a way to up the price without offering anything that a camera 1/3 of the price can do. I'd buy a used Q2 for sure but this model is just insanity.. funny enough it's the red dot that has put me off buying a Q2. The mono was tempting tho!! Great job Kai!
Great video work from Cay. On the camera front can’t believe it… but I think this is a bargain, here in the U.K. it’s only £400 more expensive than the standard model.
Something I've been wondering about since the switch to mirrorless is why camera makers are still set on the SLR design. Now that the viewfinder is electronic, there's no reason to keep that finder directly over the lens. I want to see some rangefinder/SLR hybrid designs. That Leica is a thing of beauty.
@@owRekssjfjxjxuurrpqpqss honestly I disagree about them "bungling" the x-pro 3, it's fantastic and I love mine, but I agree, they're long overdue for the x-pro 4
As a left-eye dominant shooter, I find the SLR design much preferable. And it seems much more popular for people who use long, telephoto lenses. Maybe there are enough in those two categories that it makes the SLR design preferable?
The SLR design works for both left and right eye shoots whereas a viewfinder on the far left side of the camera might be annoying to a left eye dominant shooter. The SLR style is also easier for sports/action/wildlife shoots since you can kind of aim down the lens before you bring your camera up to your eye. Also, it seems that almost every time a camera maker does a rangefinder style viewfinder (Excluding the Fuji X-Pro 3 and Leica), the viewfinder is kinda small.
I wonder what the color is like on thr M11. I prefer the warm colors from my M240 over the cooler M10P. Also, why can't Leica push a software update for these custom functions to the M10 series? I hate the ISO wheel and again prefer holding the ISO button and using the wheel to select ISO. I think that feature returns to the M11.
Edit: Misread your question. If the existing hardware can do the necessary cryptographic signing then yes otherwise no. My Original Answer: Eventually yes. They had a development Z9 with support for c2pa a Year ago at an Adobe Conference.
Not for whistleblowers and non-mainstream journalists or you'll make a non-WOCK/genter correct recording, then you will immediately be hunted down and brought to justice!
Am I understanding the C2PA thing correctly? From what you said, it seems that to me that every photo taken on this camera has it's own blockchain identity and everything done to that photo from the time it is created is recorded as an addition in that blockchain itself? I don't know if this would be that would be the correct terminology, but that's how I understand it.
I really like the idea, but sadly I have two issues with it: it can't do anything about screenshooting an image, so in case of copyright infringement, one would have to get lawyers involved and use the original work as proof; and it's headed by Adobe, so I wonder if they'll allow other companies (Capture One, Affinity, etc) to use this technology, or if it's yet another step in helping them become an actual monopoly.
@@gewglesux It is supposed to be used to prove authorship of a photo and the editing history of a photo. As in it can be used to prove a photo is straight out of a camera or that it doesn't have editing that would make it less "real". So it is for journalists, artists and anyone who cares whether or not photos are actual photos and not made with AI or through excessive editing.
The very limited differences between the M11 and M11-P suggests the portion of camera features which have mostly matured and where further development can happen. These two cameras do have a sensor and exposure controls. They lack autofocus, video, and computational photography.
Excellent review and props to your son for helping out. But seriously, who in the world would decide to put the USB port on the bottom of the camera? Does not compute. But of course, Leica, yeah, luscious - and now leading the pack on meta-data issues. Thanks.
For me, I really prefer the color of Leica, especially M10-P. M11 is great, but the color of M11 is a little red than M10 series. So, has the color of M11-P gone back to 10-P?
I hoped this new technology could be added to existing models via firmware upgrade, but I understood then that there is a dedicated chip inside the camera: what a pity!
In this episode Chris takes a deep dive into P. The startup time is yikes, I'm having the same problem with my X100, but it's from 2010 and doesn't cost $9000.
@@unn4medfeel1ng You mentioned $9k. Your X100, even the brand new ones, can't do full frame, and can't change the focal length. So trying to act like the cameras are otherwise comparable is reductive and pointless.
@@Ruylopez778 I'm not comparing cameras, I'm comparing startup times. Being on the same level as 2010 camera (and not the fastest one) is a shame for an expensive camera aimed at documentary work. I'm pretty sure something like 5Dm2 turns on faster.
Yeah, but the same port is present on non-P models and they manage to cover it with something that doesn't look like it came out of a bin at Ace Hardware. Heck, on the original M3 it was covered with a discreetly-sized, nicely-rounded, beautifully-chromed screw that harmonized with the rest of the design. I don't know how a gnarly wood screw came to symbolize "tough butch professional" in Leica's design language, but it does look silly...
I think the best copyright protection should work with ai image recognition. Storing change information as a hash into the file is great - but what if I make a screenshot??
I think this is really for people using M10P or 240P to have an upgrade. If you are using M11 then it doesn't worth to upgrade unless you really like the "no logo" design.
The content protection idea is a good one, but as many people have noted it will end up getting broken and thus invalidated. Don't forget Canon had a similar product well over a decade ago and it was cracked due to poor security approach. Any of these systems is doomed to something similar unless they let you use a Yubikey or something that is owned by the user not centrally managed. Also the whole concept of editing images that have that tag involve what is basically a form of DRM, which I think we can all agree we don't want more of in the world
I would hate to wait almost 4 seconds to take a photo. My Hasselblad 907x is about that same time and it's not quick at all. A Leica M should be quicker than that. Still keeping my M10R and I'll wait for the next M12P, I guess? Love the P versions though.
As someone with knowledge in cryptography, I'm definitely going to look into that copyright protection system. Because I don't see how it could be effective. It seems pretty gimmicky.
Honestly would be great for the C2PA blockchain (functionally that's what that bit of tech is at the end of the day just with the metadata) to be added to other cameras via firmware update. But that's not likely to happen any time soon. So while I do go to random protests that happen for lolz, I'm not going to spend 10K+tax for that. Also you can side-step this with copying the file in Linux to duplicate it and just screenshot it to cut the 'chain of edits/ownership'. So a good idea if this was implemented earlier(pre 2010) but with the knowledge of how to side-step these methods (let alone the requirements to stop that side-stepping) I don't see this getting off the ground anytime soon or at all. I'm curious your thoughts on this.
Happy to see Leica as one of the leaders in bringing authenticity technology to market. There's something beautiful about the first commercial deployment of a new digital technology emerging on a rangefinder body :).
Genuine question. How did Leica become so expensive? As i know Leica had been preferred by many photographers because it was the most reliable and "affordable" compact camera before the century. And that's what leica advertising them selves with. History of leica is the history of photojournalism something like that. if that's the company's selling point, shouldn't they keep it affordable? I think "because they produce only in germany", "it's so niche cameras, low demand, high price" ect is not enough coping material for it.
Because after Nikon popularized the SLR and Leica nearly bankrupting themselves with the M5, they had to start pandering to another market, that market being enthusiasts.
Two things: actual cost of development (engineering and design, all done in-house) and no “off-shore” manufacturing. They are a small company, with highly trained staff, making exquisitely built products. You do get what you pay for. I like Nikon and other brands as well, but their retail prices reflect their reliance on global manufacturing with its concomitant cost savings.
Corporate greed and stagnation due to lack of R&D. And why should they keep prices low if they have lost most of photography gear market already. They outpriced their low capabilities cameras and made it as rich people or legendary status product. And btw, Leica M and even LTM gear was never affordable, but not at the totally out of regular income working people reach as of now.
It's a “pro/documentary” body, made for people whose photography is defined by carefully observing a subject within its context and choosing storytelling moments out of the flow of events. That's just as specialized a task as pro sports photography, so it's not so surprising that it's priced in the same class. What IS surprising is that people who practice this kind of photography would put up with a 3.5-second boot time… maybe there'll be a firmware update to tighten that up eventually…
The U.S. Copyright Office needs to start selling people copyright registration numbers that you can renew annually that people can enter into their cameras copyright meta data information instead of having to send the photos and videos to the U.S. Copyright Office to have the copyright registered. If your photos and videos have a registered copyright there is a statutory amount of damages set by law that lawyers are willing to take the case to court to get because they are guaranteed to get paid. If your copyright is not registered with the U.S. Copyright Office lawyers will not take the case because they have to prove what your photos or videos are worth in court and there is no guarantee that they will get paid unless you are willing to pay the lawyer to take the case upfront.
Tbh I don't think this metadata will successfully protect against copyright infringement as I can always steal an image by taking a screenshot or copying it with a program that doesn't support the tags. Where the metadata becomes highly useful is for situations where the photographer wants to prove that an image isn't doctored. That's great for journalism and for photography competitions, so one day a photographer will be able to very easily prove that their image fit the competition rules and did not go through Photoshop or whatever. Though I think that could also be verified by requiring the photographer to submit a RAW photo alongside the finished jpg, but obviously that's somewhat less practical for photojournalism.
Any camera in M mode is simple to use . Why is this made out to be a plus? Storing editing info in meta does not make it an authentic record of the photo history necessarily, but not s bad idea I guess? In Darktable etc that is done in a sidecar file that you have to keep with the raw photo if you want the history to travel. It makes it possible to have 1 photo file with several processing options- say for printing colour, printing b+w, jpeg social media, tiff archive, by having different sidecar files. That would be difficult to do with just the meta. You would need several image files
Why would you say that, especially since you are a software dev, you should know better. You download the file and check the cryptographic signature. Unless the chain of trust gets compromised, you are fine. False positives don’t exist. False negatives (authentic image gets stripped of authentication data) don’t matter.
@@RegrinderAlert That's really naive of you. As we already established you can do anything you want with the image data from a photo with or without C2PA. What's preventing someone from making a new image with a new crypthographic signature out of these data? You could even take the camera and take a photo of your screen or print it and take a photo of the print, but who says only a camera can make this signature? Clever hackers could easily hack the firmware and steal the keys and make a tool that can add a signature to any image.
@@TheFlyingDogFish You need to look up how certificate chains work. I cannot believe you work in IT. This very conversation would not exist if the concept wouldn’t work. It’s basic asymmetric cryptography and extracting keys from a shielded enclave is currently believed to be impossible even for the most advanced state-level actors. Potential weaknesses lie in the implementation (as always, duh). But the concept itself is sound.
@@RegrinderAlert Well... The digital signature only states that "this file was such and such at this date time and this can be verified because you trust the master key/elliptic-curve cryptography/whatnot asymmetric tech used and a verifiable/trusted timestamp proves the time when this happened" and that's it... The chain only tells you the order of events in one branch (that the data was changed to this and this after that and that). Now there are a few issues here: 1. if they manage to pull the playstation stunt and don't read the "ellyptic-curve key reuse can be used to reverse engineer the key" part which caused the signatures to be reverse engineered due to a bug in code... 2. if somebody removes/feeds raw data to the hardware of the camera (assuming that the encryption hardware is not part of the sensor that samples the light in the first place) he can create a "copy" of a raw file with a later timestamp and even tries to steal my own work... 3. if I pay for a fake image and project it in high enough resolution I can take a photo of that and even try to abuse the "it's vouched by the cert" feature which I would certainly consider pulling out such card in court (claiming that my original was created before and faked later so both of us can't prove which one is the real deal) etc etc etc I'm quite certain that people willing to bother with such things could do far better than random "hm this would be funny" from me who never cared much for hacking/abuse... So all in all I don't see so many advantages to this feature as you do... But surprisingly you two are both right to some extent - you are just not looking at the picture from the same angle ;)
@@RegrinderAlert I agree (as a software engineer myself). If the used algorithm is robust, C2PA has great potential. Maybe there will still be some flaws in Version 1, but it's good to have some evolution in the field. Generative AI is killing authenticity faster than ever.
So I think the copyright "protections" are moot... BUT I think if the content verification tech is there, then its gamechanging... depending on how well designed it is... You're going to need to bake in gps/time info, but also have verification of the pathway... essentially if Leica can fake the verification data, then the whole concept is worthless... but if its a system designed akin to end to end encryption where nobody can fake the data...
I really wish Leica made an affordable digital rangefinder. So many people want to use or own rangefinders but no one in their right mind except Lenny Kravits can afford these beautiful machines.
I bought a M240 about 6 months ago. approx $2,500. The 240 gets noisy above ISO 1600 and doesn't have the new higher resolution EVFs as the new ones, but I actually like the color better. paired with some of the new Voightlander (Cosina) lenses it does really well.
People always ask this, but it simply doesn't make sense for them to damage their brand and business model by offering an "affordable" new model. Manual focus, OVF is a niche market these days, no matter how low they go with the price. If they sold the same volume as an X100 then they could lower the price, but they never will sell that many whatever the price. Most consumers want the form factor but auto focus and the benefits of EVF, and most people who want to shoot a rangefinder on a budget either use film or the old Leica digital models as they slower become less relevant and more affordable.
So that's a $14,000 setup you're holding??? I'm afraid I just don't get it. If you want one, and can afford one, then get one but really Leica, Ten Grand??????..... and it starts up slow???
Chris, you are always so enthusiastic about Leica reviews, and you obviously do a great job, this is not a criticism towards you. But it's difficult to share that enthusiasm towards a photography camera that is $9k since its essentially unobtainable for 99% of photogs, and realistically does the same things a Fuji camera thats $7k less. But I have never shot on a modern leica, so I wish I knew what the magic sauce was to justify the price. Is C2PA worth $6-7k?!? I just struggle to understand the value you get for the $9K. You can buy a RED camera for less than that.
I too like to carp about Leica M pricing since I can't afford one either (and it's particularly frustrating because I'm a dedicated rangefinder-camera user) BUT... when I watch reviews of high-end professional cameras such as the Sony A9 II ($6500) I often find myself thinking, "Well, suppose I were to come into a lot of money and decide I need a high-end, high-megapixel camera in the traditional 35mm-camera form factor. I like the pixel count and the image quality of the A9 II -- but I would absolutely HATE all those video modes and AF modes and function buttons and viewfinder readouts. My work practice as a photographer is very simple, and I would gladly pay extra for a camera that had top image quality and build quality, but left all that other stuff OFF..." Well, Leica is building exactly that camera!
Hey Chad, why don't you pick up an older Leica camera? If you don't like it, you could always sell it with minimal loss! It's not for everyone, and certainly not for every kind of photography, but with a good lens there is really nothing quite like shooting an M. (I'm not a fanboy, in my rotation I also have an OM-system OM1, and a lumix s5)
I used to think the same way until i started shooting a Leica. I purchased a Brand new MP. I thought i had rocks in my head. I'm glad i purchased the MP
It's a veblen good. (A good where demand increases as price increases.) Leicas are not $9,000 better than Fuji cameras. They are $0 better than Fuji cameras _as cameras_. They are actually worse for most purposes, given that they have no autofocus, which means your miss rate is going to be substantially higher. The reason it costs $9,000 is because it is a luxury good for rich people to use to show off, to themselves or others. It is not $9,000 because it takes better images. You will not become a better photographer by buying one. People who shoot Leica are not better photographers than anyone else. Nobody can, from a printed photo, accurately identify a Leica image vs. an image taken by any other camera with a lens with the same focal length and speed. Phillip Reeve has a great article about this. Here's him discussing the main draw of the camera: "If you were born in the 80s or even after that you may not even know what a rangefinder is: it is an inaccurate and archaic focus mechanism." phillipreeve.net/blog/leica-m10-the-camera/
@@jlwilliams Everyone to their own taste, but you don't need to use any of that stuff on the Sony A9 II either. Just put it A or M mode and tweak the same variables as you would with the Leica -- ISO, shutter speed and aperture. The rest is optional. I know that some people take psychic damage from even the existence of options they don't use on a device, but I just want to point out that such options objectively do no harm if your goal is to simply take pictures.
I think we’ve all reached a point in time where we have become spoiled. 3.5 seconds is not a lot of time to wait till the Leica M11 P starts up. I get the point because I own the Nikon Z9 where the startup time is near instantaneous. But for a camera as beautiful as the Leica M11 P taking in the aesthetics of the camera before blindly shooting into the wild never gets tiring. I could wait for the shot a whole lot longer than 3.5 seconds. I mean what’s the hurry? Didn’t someone once say that Leica cameras make you think before taking the shot?
For security reasons, all major social media companies convert uploaded images into a different format (or recompress them) so maliciously formed images can’t exploit parser (image or metadata) bugs in client libraries. So this metadata won’t reach Twitter, Instagram, et cetera
___________Please be aware that certain batches of Leica M11-P Cameras made during the summer of 2023 are defective. It's a PROBLEM that should be addressed during all reviews.
I have two Leicas, both of which I got either dirt cheap with dents/scratches from a rich friend that dropped it or from a rich person's estate sale. The former is an M10-D, the only real M camera as far as I'm concerned. If you want to cripple yourself on purpose for the feel/aesthetic, then go all the way with the M10-D or Pixii. The rich friend with more money than sense figured out they didn't actually want the "analogue digital" experience real fast. The second is a CL, probably my favorite modern Leica in general. Leica really pushed it on release, saying it's truly the camera Oskar Barnack, the inventor of the Leica compact film camera (one of the first to truly champion "low resolution" 35 mm film), would have made today. It's the definition of compact, for late 2017 the specs in general are fine for the philosophy of the Red Dot cult, and in general, it takes amazing photos. I'm hoping Sigma releases an APS-C L-mount camera sooner than later with all the APS-C lenses they're releases for L-mount. Would be nice not to risk something I paid 800 USD for that can't be replaced for that, while working.
60 mpix? weather sealed? easy transfer to phone?... and then one can do dropbox. EVF? Are there weather sealed lenses? Touch screen? Video? and would Weegee use it? Kid framed a little high here and there, needed a bit more of the subject's body in the frame here and there. Good first efforts.
Leica lives on its history. They were the top of the analog era and now heavily lagging behind in the digital one. There's nothing justifying the price of their cameras -like 170 bucks for a Q3 battery!-. They sell way too few cameras for being able to invest in the proper R&D. Thus the frequent glitches like the very know freezing issue. Even a PSC Fujifilm X-T5 outperform any M11. It's cheaper to pay for videos like this one than investing in R&D and come out with a functional camera with a quality which can match other vendors products. You bay a Leica for the hype and status symbol. Certainly not for what it does. I have been using m240 M9 and M11 for a few weeks each. Definitely not impressed.
Kudos to your son for the quality camera work! :D
As always, this was my first stop after receiving the notice from Leica. Chris’s review is right on point. I think the M11-P will appeal, first of all, to owners of earlier generations who were specifically waiting for this model, as well as to owners of the M11M or M11 who were waiting to add a second body. There is a tradition of offering professional (P) variants, and I am certain this one will fare very well, especially as the M11 is viewed as a major step forward.
Just adding a note on the digital right protection. The objective is mainly to prevent fake images and being able to trace back the story of the picture. But it is more for the end consumer to be able to verify that as anybody could take the picture and make it a normal JPEG (I think, I haven't read the spec, it may be possible to embedded some of the digital signature in the rendering of the picture (steganography)...
mine was the C2PA standard website
C2PA is more about preventing fake pictures than protecting against unauthorized use. It’s the newspaper editorial ability to make sure the picture has not been modified in such a way that it creates a misleading reality. Like adding content that didn’t exist in the original shot, or removing content that changes the meaning of the event.
This is so important in today’s world of fake news.
I hope that Leica has finally managed to address the freeze issues of the M11 and M11 Monochrom. I had to return my M11 after a while because it was simply unbearable that the camera kept freezing constantly.
My M10-P has been smooth and flawless. Hopefully Leica will take care of those who have M11 issues
Did you use a UHS-2 SD card? I’ve had my M11 for about half a year and have had maybe one issue with lock up, but a quick battery pull fixed it. Might just be luck of the draw
@@elimeyerbad yeah i switched to a UHS-2 one after the first few freezes but it didn't helped.
@@elimeyerbad UHS-1 32GB Sandisk and stick to it never fails.
Mine was fixed with the software update
Your son did a great job filming 🎉
Great job by your son. Wonderful video as always
Great job on the filming from your son ❤
nice video,
don’t forget the saphir-glas protection at the display. No scratches any more.
I once owned a Leica M-P. Loved how minimal and discrete it was. This looks wonderful.
I like your honest opinions. Always great videos but I cannot determine where you all are located but I think Canada
New MP shooter here... i love it... helps me to slow down and to re discover
That startup time is one of the reasons I still love my M240 over the latest generation. If you turn on classic light metering with no live view option, the startup time is considerably less. BUT, in actuality, even on the M11, you can turn it on, bring it to your eye, focus and by the time you've done all that, it's ready to shoot. A lot of my mirrorless cameras may start up faster, but you have to wait to focus until it's on...in the end they all got you a picture (from fully off to on) in about the same time, with the M240 still edging the others out.
I have a Q3 and with the first firmware update, startup time went from 3.5 sec to 1 second. So Leica knows how to do this with a 60MP camera. Granted, very different cameras but it seems with the Q3, the camera has more "prep" to do at startup due to autofocus, EVF, etc. C'mon Leica.
Excellent work, Kai-
Nice work Kai.
Great job, Kai!
Could you do a session on the weekly blog about the " C2PA Support"
This could be very relevant going forward.
This is my endgame camera. I'm going to save up and hopefully buy it next year.
did Leica at least make the top plate made of brass this time? the reason i didn't go with the black M11 was because i prefer the brass...and i think Leica went cheap by going with aluminum.
Black is still aluminum, silver is brass
Every video from this guy I am blown away at the aperture’s he uses.. I hardly change mine as much as he does.. seeing f11 on a picture of a human is so left field for me
Thank you for (quickly) answering a question that I’d not seen answered. Terrific that posting to social media will NOT strip out that Content Authentication information!!! Right on.
The REAL question is did Leica fix the freezes, misaligned RF’s out of a new box, etc? Can add all of the features they want but there going to keep chasing away new and existing customers if they don’t address these issues.
M11 had bad freezing
I love the Black-Billed Magpie in the background at 1:48 😆
Great camera work 👏
Magpie landing behind you at 1:48 😄 - Thanks for the Review
I adore Leica cameras.. the shooting experience is incredible..(I am not nuts about the colours tho) It frustrates me that they always find a way to up the price without offering anything that a camera 1/3 of the price can do. I'd buy a used Q2 for sure but this model is just insanity.. funny enough it's the red dot that has put me off buying a Q2. The mono was tempting tho!! Great job Kai!
I'd love a crash course on C2PA from you guys
Great video work from Cay. On the camera front can’t believe it… but I think this is a bargain, here in the U.K. it’s only £400 more expensive than the standard model.
My favourite camera reviewer was reviewing my favourite camera brand right behind my house?! We could’ve done a side-by-side with the M11-M 😭
Something I've been wondering about since the switch to mirrorless is why camera makers are still set on the SLR design.
Now that the viewfinder is electronic, there's no reason to keep that finder directly over the lens. I want to see some rangefinder/SLR hybrid designs.
That Leica is a thing of beauty.
100%, the bulky viewfinder "bulge" makes cameras way harder to pack in a bag, it's why I love travelling with my x-pro 3, so much easier to pack away
Fuji needs an xpro4. They bungled the xpro3 but the xpro line is loved and the best alternative to Leica for optical viewfinder digital.
@@owRekssjfjxjxuurrpqpqss honestly I disagree about them "bungling" the x-pro 3, it's fantastic and I love mine, but I agree, they're long overdue for the x-pro 4
As a left-eye dominant shooter, I find the SLR design much preferable. And it seems much more popular for people who use long, telephoto lenses. Maybe there are enough in those two categories that it makes the SLR design preferable?
The SLR design works for both left and right eye shoots whereas a viewfinder on the far left side of the camera might be annoying to a left eye dominant shooter. The SLR style is also easier for sports/action/wildlife shoots since you can kind of aim down the lens before you bring your camera up to your eye. Also, it seems that almost every time a camera maker does a rangefinder style viewfinder (Excluding the Fuji X-Pro 3 and Leica), the viewfinder is kinda small.
I wonder what the color is like on thr M11. I prefer the warm colors from my M240 over the cooler M10P. Also, why can't Leica push a software update for these custom functions to the M10 series? I hate the ISO wheel and again prefer holding the ISO button and using the wheel to select ISO. I think that feature returns to the M11.
Do you think Nikon will add C2PA via firmware to their pro bodies?
Edit: Misread your question.
If the existing hardware can do the necessary cryptographic signing then yes otherwise no.
My Original Answer:
Eventually yes. They had a development Z9 with support for c2pa a Year ago at an Adobe Conference.
What if you take a screenshot of the photo online, crop it, and upload as a new jpeg? 🤔
Hoping more camera companies put c2pa in their cameras!
Not for whistleblowers and non-mainstream journalists or you'll make a non-WOCK/genter correct recording,
then you will immediately be hunted down and brought to justice!
Am I understanding the C2PA thing correctly? From what you said, it seems that to me that every photo taken on this camera has it's own blockchain identity and everything done to that photo from the time it is created is recorded as an addition in that blockchain itself? I don't know if this would be that would be the correct terminology, but that's how I understand it.
I really hope more camera brands join C2PA.
Sounds complicated.... i THINK..
I really like the idea, but sadly I have two issues with it: it can't do anything about screenshooting an image, so in case of copyright infringement, one would have to get lawyers involved and use the original work as proof; and it's headed by Adobe, so I wonder if they'll allow other companies (Capture One, Affinity, etc) to use this technology, or if it's yet another step in helping them become an actual monopoly.
At least Panasonic, Nikon, Canon and Sony are members but just haven't yet released a camera with the authenticity system
Who is this system aimed at?@@TheDeltaMoo
@@gewglesux It is supposed to be used to prove authorship of a photo and the editing history of a photo. As in it can be used to prove a photo is straight out of a camera or that it doesn't have editing that would make it less "real".
So it is for journalists, artists and anyone who cares whether or not photos are actual photos and not made with AI or through excessive editing.
The very limited differences between the M11 and M11-P suggests the portion of camera features which have mostly matured and where further development can happen. These two cameras do have a sensor and exposure controls. They lack autofocus, video, and computational photography.
C2PA seems like a no brainer for all to jump on board. That said, I have no ideas the cost of implementation.
Excellent review and props to your son for helping out. But seriously, who in the world would decide to put the USB port on the bottom of the camera? Does not compute. But of course, Leica, yeah, luscious - and now leading the pack on meta-data issues. Thanks.
My latest M camera is Leica M10. Now only have Leica SL with auto lens. Wanna use the rangefinder again.
For me, I really prefer the color of Leica, especially M10-P. M11 is great, but the color of M11 is a little red than M10 series. So, has the color of M11-P gone back to 10-P?
See photo at 2:57, I don't think the red/magenta shift has gone.
seems like u r right. Although Leica didn't admit. But this sensor look like is the same as Sony 61mp.
I hoped this new technology could be added to existing models via firmware upgrade, but I understood then that there is a dedicated chip inside the camera: what a pity!
In this episode Chris takes a deep dive into P. The startup time is yikes, I'm having the same problem with my X100, but it's from 2010 and doesn't cost $9000.
The affordability of the camera is the buyer’s problem, not Leica’s problem 😂
The X100 also isn't full frame, and isn't part of a mechanical interchangeable lens system
@@Ruylopez778 how does being fullframe and having a lens mount affect boot-up time?
@@unn4medfeel1ng You mentioned $9k. Your X100, even the brand new ones, can't do full frame, and can't change the focal length. So trying to act like the cameras are otherwise comparable is reductive and pointless.
@@Ruylopez778 I'm not comparing cameras, I'm comparing startup times. Being on the same level as 2010 camera (and not the fastest one) is a shame for an expensive camera aimed at documentary work. I'm pretty sure something like 5Dm2 turns on faster.
The black screw isn't just a motif, it is functional. Behind it is another screw that adjusts the rangefinder.
Yeah, but the same port is present on non-P models and they manage to cover it with something that doesn't look like it came out of a bin at Ace Hardware. Heck, on the original M3 it was covered with a discreetly-sized, nicely-rounded, beautifully-chromed screw that harmonized with the rest of the design. I don't know how a gnarly wood screw came to symbolize "tough butch professional" in Leica's design language, but it does look silly...
The original M11 has issues with exposure and White-Balance reliability; you didn't state if those issues have been resolved in the M11P.
Selling all my Nikon gear to buy this!
Won’t a feature like C2PA likely be added to existing cameras like the M11 via firmware in the near future?
i'LL BET IT WILL!
Great video! Keep up the great work!
How does it retain the data, I thought Instagram and the like either scrub the meta data or generate a new picture for the upload?
I think the best copyright protection should work with ai image recognition. Storing change information as a hash into the file is great - but what if I make a screenshot??
i have M9-P, should i upgrade ?
No BMCC 6K full frame review?
Wow.... Thanks for the Leica Love.... it's appreciated. lets see who else..
I think this is really for people using M10P or 240P to have an upgrade. If you are using M11 then it doesn't worth to upgrade unless you really like the "no logo" design.
When will you review Dji Osmo pocket 3?
Where i can find that jacket?
How does this protection mode compare to the Sony version? Are they both being endorsed by law enforcement?
Sony has also joined the C2PA so I imagine they will all follow the new standards.
Well, as much as I love the silver P's, I'm glad I bought M11 - not that much difference🙂
Definitely another dreamcamera that I could never afford. 😢 but happy with my Fujifilms 😁
The content protection idea is a good one, but as many people have noted it will end up getting broken and thus invalidated. Don't forget Canon had a similar product well over a decade ago and it was cracked due to poor security approach. Any of these systems is doomed to something similar unless they let you use a Yubikey or something that is owned by the user not centrally managed.
Also the whole concept of editing images that have that tag involve what is basically a form of DRM, which I think we can all agree we don't want more of in the world
I don’t understand why you need hardware from a manufacturer to have a software encryption. Why would CP2A require hardware?
presumably to store the certificate?
I would hate to wait almost 4 seconds to take a photo. My Hasselblad 907x is about that same time and it's not quick at all. A Leica M should be quicker than that. Still keeping my M10R and I'll wait for the next M12P, I guess? Love the P versions though.
As someone with knowledge in cryptography, I'm definitely going to look into that copyright protection system. Because I don't see how it could be effective. It seems pretty gimmicky.
What professionals do with rangefinder??
Honestly would be great for the C2PA blockchain (functionally that's what that bit of tech is at the end of the day just with the metadata) to be added to other cameras via firmware update. But that's not likely to happen any time soon. So while I do go to random protests that happen for lolz, I'm not going to spend 10K+tax for that.
Also you can side-step this with copying the file in Linux to duplicate it and just screenshot it to cut the 'chain of edits/ownership'. So a good idea if this was implemented earlier(pre 2010) but with the knowledge of how to side-step these methods (let alone the requirements to stop that side-stepping) I don't see this getting off the ground anytime soon or at all.
I'm curious your thoughts on this.
The indecisive moment, 3.5 seconds late.
Kai did an excellent job.
Happy to see Leica as one of the leaders in bringing authenticity technology to market. There's something beautiful about the first commercial deployment of a new digital technology emerging on a rangefinder body :).
Yeah that startup time is unacceptable for a camera of this price, as usual the hardware is great, the software is lacking polish
I've always thought that the perfect camera is something with Leica hardware on the camera itself and Fuji or Sony engineers on all the digital stuff.
Genuine question. How did Leica become so expensive? As i know Leica had been preferred by many photographers because it was the most reliable and "affordable" compact camera before the century.
And that's what leica advertising them selves with. History of leica is the history of photojournalism something like that. if that's the company's selling point, shouldn't they keep it affordable? I think "because they produce only in germany", "it's so niche cameras, low demand, high price" ect is not enough coping material for it.
Because after Nikon popularized the SLR and Leica nearly bankrupting themselves with the M5, they had to start pandering to another market, that market being enthusiasts.
Two things: actual cost of development (engineering and design, all done in-house) and no “off-shore” manufacturing. They are a small company, with highly trained staff, making exquisitely built products. You do get what you pay for. I like Nikon and other brands as well, but their retail prices reflect their reliance on global manufacturing with its concomitant cost savings.
Corporate greed and stagnation due to lack of R&D. And why should they keep prices low if they have lost most of photography gear market already. They outpriced their low capabilities cameras and made it as rich people or legendary status product. And btw, Leica M and even LTM gear was never affordable, but not at the totally out of regular income working people reach as of now.
@@bsmukler canon still makes majority of their gears in Japan they even make their own sensor
Good to know!
professional doctors
9/10 dentists approve!
Rappers often love to call themselves doctor 😂
And occasional lawyers
professional youtubers
Good job by you and your son!
I just can't get pass the price point for a camera that ISN'T a medium format or even a "pro/sports" body...great video as always though!
Maybe it's technically not medium format but it almost is, the 60mp sensor is a beast. I own an M11, the thing excels especially at night.
It's a “pro/documentary” body, made for people whose photography is defined by carefully observing a subject within its context and choosing storytelling moments out of the flow of events. That's just as specialized a task as pro sports photography, so it's not so surprising that it's priced in the same class. What IS surprising is that people who practice this kind of photography would put up with a 3.5-second boot time… maybe there'll be a firmware update to tighten that up eventually…
The U.S. Copyright Office needs to start selling people copyright registration numbers that you can renew annually that people can enter into their cameras copyright meta data information instead of having to send the photos and videos to the U.S. Copyright Office to have the copyright registered. If your photos and videos have a registered copyright there is a statutory amount of damages set by law that lawyers are willing to take the case to court to get because they are guaranteed to get paid. If your copyright is not registered with the U.S. Copyright Office lawyers will not take the case because they have to prove what your photos or videos are worth in court and there is no guarantee that they will get paid unless you are willing to pay the lawyer to take the case upfront.
Tbh I don't think this metadata will successfully protect against copyright infringement as I can always steal an image by taking a screenshot or copying it with a program that doesn't support the tags. Where the metadata becomes highly useful is for situations where the photographer wants to prove that an image isn't doctored. That's great for journalism and for photography competitions, so one day a photographer will be able to very easily prove that their image fit the competition rules and did not go through Photoshop or whatever.
Though I think that could also be verified by requiring the photographer to submit a RAW photo alongside the finished jpg, but obviously that's somewhat less practical for photojournalism.
content authenticating is cool. other than that though, I think I'd rather have a camera that's 1/4 of the price that delivers the same results
Will definitely make me concentrate on my exposure so no record of curves will be kept 😅
Can we go with Peta-patooties? I miss the nicknames. :(
Any camera in M mode is simple to use . Why is this made out to be a plus? Storing editing info in meta does not make it an authentic record of the photo history necessarily, but not s bad idea I guess? In Darktable etc that is done in a sidecar file that you have to keep with the raw photo if you want the history to travel. It makes it possible to have 1 photo file with several processing options- say for printing colour, printing b+w, jpeg social media, tiff archive, by having different sidecar files. That would be difficult to do with just the meta. You would need several image files
As a software developer I highly doubt C2PA will change anything.. whatever can be displayed on screen can be manipulated.
Why would you say that, especially since you are a software dev, you should know better.
You download the file and check the cryptographic signature. Unless the chain of trust gets compromised, you are fine.
False positives don’t exist. False negatives (authentic image gets stripped of authentication data) don’t matter.
@@RegrinderAlert That's really naive of you. As we already established you can do anything you want with the image data from a photo with or without C2PA. What's preventing someone from making a new image with a new crypthographic signature out of these data? You could even take the camera and take a photo of your screen or print it and take a photo of the print, but who says only a camera can make this signature? Clever hackers could easily hack the firmware and steal the keys and make a tool that can add a signature to any image.
@@TheFlyingDogFish You need to look up how certificate chains work. I cannot believe you work in IT. This very conversation would not exist if the concept wouldn’t work.
It’s basic asymmetric cryptography and extracting keys from a shielded enclave is currently believed to be impossible even for the most advanced state-level actors.
Potential weaknesses lie in the implementation (as always, duh). But the concept itself is sound.
@@RegrinderAlert Well... The digital signature only states that "this file was such and such at this date time and this can be verified because you trust the master key/elliptic-curve cryptography/whatnot asymmetric tech used and a verifiable/trusted timestamp proves the time when this happened" and that's it...
The chain only tells you the order of events in one branch (that the data was changed to this and this after that and that).
Now there are a few issues here:
1. if they manage to pull the playstation stunt and don't read the "ellyptic-curve key reuse can be used to reverse engineer the key" part which caused the signatures to be reverse engineered due to a bug in code...
2. if somebody removes/feeds raw data to the hardware of the camera (assuming that the encryption hardware is not part of the sensor that samples the light in the first place) he can create a "copy" of a raw file with a later timestamp and even tries to steal my own work...
3. if I pay for a fake image and project it in high enough resolution I can take a photo of that and even try to abuse the "it's vouched by the cert" feature which I would certainly consider pulling out such card in court (claiming that my original was created before and faked later so both of us can't prove which one is the real deal)
etc etc etc
I'm quite certain that people willing to bother with such things could do far better than random "hm this would be funny" from me who never cared much for hacking/abuse...
So all in all I don't see so many advantages to this feature as you do... But surprisingly you two are both right to some extent - you are just not looking at the picture from the same angle ;)
@@RegrinderAlert I agree (as a software engineer myself). If the used algorithm is robust, C2PA has great potential. Maybe there will still be some flaws in Version 1, but it's good to have some evolution in the field. Generative AI is killing authenticity faster than ever.
Your son did a great job - Jordan better watch out!
I just hope Kai never learns to edit😬
- Jordan
I mean it is well done and all, but for that money I would go medium format every day of every week of every year.
So I think the copyright "protections" are moot...
BUT
I think if the content verification tech is there, then its gamechanging... depending on how well designed it is...
You're going to need to bake in gps/time info, but also have verification of the pathway... essentially if Leica can fake the verification data, then the whole concept is worthless... but if its a system designed akin to end to end encryption where nobody can fake the data...
Digital is for fun 🎉
Film is forever 🌿
I really wish Leica made an affordable digital rangefinder. So many people want to use or own rangefinders but no one in their right mind except Lenny Kravits can afford these beautiful machines.
I bought a M240 about 6 months ago. approx $2,500. The 240 gets noisy above ISO 1600 and doesn't have the new higher resolution EVFs as the new ones, but I actually like the color better. paired with some of the new Voightlander (Cosina) lenses it does really well.
People always ask this, but it simply doesn't make sense for them to damage their brand and business model by offering an "affordable" new model. Manual focus, OVF is a niche market these days, no matter how low they go with the price. If they sold the same volume as an X100 then they could lower the price, but they never will sell that many whatever the price. Most consumers want the form factor but auto focus and the benefits of EVF, and most people who want to shoot a rangefinder on a budget either use film or the old Leica digital models as they slower become less relevant and more affordable.
pixxii? it is apsc tho
thats the fuji models 😅
@@underflo43tkyFuji have effectively abandoned rangefinder concept. No xe5 and no sign of any xpro4. Most think Fuji RF is dead
Just realized your voice sounds like Paul Rudd!
This makes me excited about what a Q3P could be, with internal storage, c2pa, no red dot
So that's a $14,000 setup you're holding??? I'm afraid I just don't get it.
If you want one, and can afford one, then get one but really Leica, Ten Grand??????..... and it starts up slow???
Just another example that no internal memory on the Q3 was a huge miss.
Chris, you are always so enthusiastic about Leica reviews, and you obviously do a great job, this is not a criticism towards you. But it's difficult to share that enthusiasm towards a photography camera that is $9k since its essentially unobtainable for 99% of photogs, and realistically does the same things a Fuji camera thats $7k less. But I have never shot on a modern leica, so I wish I knew what the magic sauce was to justify the price. Is C2PA worth $6-7k?!? I just struggle to understand the value you get for the $9K. You can buy a RED camera for less than that.
I too like to carp about Leica M pricing since I can't afford one either (and it's particularly frustrating because I'm a dedicated rangefinder-camera user) BUT... when I watch reviews of high-end professional cameras such as the Sony A9 II ($6500) I often find myself thinking, "Well, suppose I were to come into a lot of money and decide I need a high-end, high-megapixel camera in the traditional 35mm-camera form factor. I like the pixel count and the image quality of the A9 II -- but I would absolutely HATE all those video modes and AF modes and function buttons and viewfinder readouts. My work practice as a photographer is very simple, and I would gladly pay extra for a camera that had top image quality and build quality, but left all that other stuff OFF..." Well, Leica is building exactly that camera!
Hey Chad, why don't you pick up an older Leica camera? If you don't like it, you could always sell it with minimal loss! It's not for everyone, and certainly not for every kind of photography, but with a good lens there is really nothing quite like shooting an M. (I'm not a fanboy, in my rotation I also have an OM-system OM1, and a lumix s5)
I used to think the same way until i started shooting a Leica. I purchased a Brand new MP. I thought i had rocks in my head. I'm glad i purchased the MP
It's a veblen good. (A good where demand increases as price increases.) Leicas are not $9,000 better than Fuji cameras. They are $0 better than Fuji cameras _as cameras_. They are actually worse for most purposes, given that they have no autofocus, which means your miss rate is going to be substantially higher.
The reason it costs $9,000 is because it is a luxury good for rich people to use to show off, to themselves or others. It is not $9,000 because it takes better images. You will not become a better photographer by buying one. People who shoot Leica are not better photographers than anyone else. Nobody can, from a printed photo, accurately identify a Leica image vs. an image taken by any other camera with a lens with the same focal length and speed.
Phillip Reeve has a great article about this. Here's him discussing the main draw of the camera: "If you were born in the 80s or even after that you may not even know what a rangefinder is: it is an inaccurate and archaic focus mechanism." phillipreeve.net/blog/leica-m10-the-camera/
@@jlwilliams Everyone to their own taste, but you don't need to use any of that stuff on the Sony A9 II either. Just put it A or M mode and tweak the same variables as you would with the Leica -- ISO, shutter speed and aperture. The rest is optional. I know that some people take psychic damage from even the existence of options they don't use on a device, but I just want to point out that such options objectively do no harm if your goal is to simply take pictures.
I think we’ve all reached a point in time where we have become spoiled. 3.5 seconds is not a lot of time to wait till the Leica M11 P starts up. I get the point because I own the Nikon Z9 where the startup time is near instantaneous. But for a camera as beautiful as the Leica M11 P taking in the aesthetics of the camera before blindly shooting into the wild never gets tiring. I could wait for the shot a whole lot longer than 3.5 seconds. I mean what’s the hurry? Didn’t someone once say that Leica cameras make you think before taking the shot?
That’s price tag is a good way to rob enthusiasts 😂😂😂
For security reasons, all major social media companies convert uploaded images into a different format (or recompress them) so maliciously formed images can’t exploit parser (image or metadata) bugs in client libraries. So this metadata won’t reach Twitter, Instagram, et cetera
It is My favourite focal length...
___________Please be aware that certain batches of Leica M11-P Cameras made during the summer of 2023 are defective. It's a PROBLEM that should be addressed during all reviews.
I have two Leicas, both of which I got either dirt cheap with dents/scratches from a rich friend that dropped it or from a rich person's estate sale. The former is an M10-D, the only real M camera as far as I'm concerned. If you want to cripple yourself on purpose for the feel/aesthetic, then go all the way with the M10-D or Pixii. The rich friend with more money than sense figured out they didn't actually want the "analogue digital" experience real fast. The second is a CL, probably my favorite modern Leica in general. Leica really pushed it on release, saying it's truly the camera Oskar Barnack, the inventor of the Leica compact film camera (one of the first to truly champion "low resolution" 35 mm film), would have made today. It's the definition of compact, for late 2017 the specs in general are fine for the philosophy of the Red Dot cult, and in general, it takes amazing photos. I'm hoping Sigma releases an APS-C L-mount camera sooner than later with all the APS-C lenses they're releases for L-mount. Would be nice not to risk something I paid 800 USD for that can't be replaced for that, while working.
I think I would miss a grip :)
Hey Chris, I can tell you that you got a beer at the lunch before this shoot.
C2PA is more of your work and life sitting on a server. Good for some applications but should not be mainstreamed.
Ridiculous feature because you could always screenshot. It’s like the NFT nonsense.
60 mpix? weather sealed? easy transfer to phone?... and then one can do dropbox. EVF? Are there weather sealed lenses? Touch screen? Video? and would Weegee use it?
Kid framed a little high here and there, needed a bit more of the subject's body in the frame here and there. Good first efforts.
Leica lives on its history. They were the top of the analog era and now heavily lagging behind in the digital one.
There's nothing justifying the price of their cameras -like 170 bucks for a Q3 battery!-. They sell way too few cameras for being able to invest in the proper R&D. Thus the frequent glitches like the very know freezing issue.
Even a PSC Fujifilm X-T5 outperform any M11.
It's cheaper to pay for videos like this one than investing in R&D and come out with a functional camera with a quality which can match other vendors products.
You bay a Leica for the hype and status symbol. Certainly not for what it does.
I have been using m240 M9 and M11 for a few weeks each. Definitely not impressed.
Have to ask yourself: Are these upgrades worth 4 days pay? Probably not…