The Problem With Piano Finger Independence Exercises: Why You’re NOT getting any Better
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video I explain what I think is the problem with piano finger independence exercises and why you might not be improving. I hope it's useful for you!
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I love when something makes sense you know it is the correct method. Thank you
Adult learner . Clear logical explanation and demonstration in a straightforward no gimmick way. I am looking forward to applying these techniques based on how the muscles actually function. Highly recommend.
Niccce, this, and the Swan neck technique youve taught me are the keys I needed. Bless you sensei 😎🎶💠
most underrate video saw so far of these year lol. thanks
Decades ago, a fine player who decided to give piano lessons was touting "Phillipe" exercises for finger independence, he was also a harpsichordist. I tried them for a few weeks and felt independence was not improving but hands felt uncomfortable, now recognized as undue tension. I had already dispensed with the Hanon, Czerny mode, but was still struggling with accuracy, which I thought was due to lack of finger independence. A lot of this was supported by my in person teacher, who had a great resume.
I see the issue as Craig does, but he clarifies it with supporting exhibits like anatomy, physiology, and all. Specifically, the issue is around a fundamental misunderstanding that causes too much attention to the fingers as actors isolated from other coordinated and interactive movements, of which the fingers are only one, and not the seminal aspect, even though they are the point at which the rubber of the fingers meets the road of the keyboard.
Finger action is the result of immediate other supporting movements, lateral forearm movement to get into position, movement of the fingers down from the knuckle bridge, and the wrists and forearms coming down with some degree of arm weight, adjusting wrist height, circular movements, often when used when one finger is anchoring a position. Rotation, all of which is supported by good posture which is easily traced all the way down to the feet. Good playing, as I now recognize it, coordinates all these elements into a smooth, consistent flow which allows for expanded musical expression, rather than just trying to control the fingers in relative isolation. I see this as potentially injurious if overdone, certainly restrictive of technique and expressive possibilities.
An observation I have been left with is that most of teachers I was studying "with" for a rather hefty lesson fee, were repeating what they got from their teaching traditions and didn't observe closely to analyze what is actually going on with the students' hands. It's what I really like about Craig's approach and the online mode, in general, although teaching from one to another is very uneven. They are often good players but not necessarily great teachers. They don't often account for differentials in folks' physiognomies, or individual creative propensities, but they are often happy to bill you for going over on lesson time. I know, I know, it's hard to make a living with music, especially classical mode.
Online we can go over and over a tutorial to get the point and see how that lines up with what we need, slow it down, pause and rerun. How we could approach the music differently by words explaining the modelling. Online modality, like digital pianos, is here to stay.
So, thank you Craig and all supporting commenters.
Thanks for all the tips, your studio looks great!
Thanks for watching!
Dear my online piano teacher, I would like to thank you for your specific and clear content. Thank you for showing the video from up and left angles. It feels like your presence is here. I would like to ask you to show us how does the fingers' good positions look like when we are playing chord. Thank you for your great content, as always. I hope you are healthy and happy! 🌻
You're very welcome!
Hope you and your friends are still playing.
Thanks Craig :))
I mainly focus technique improvement on releasing tension. It started with Alexander Technique over 10 years ago when I was 73. I've spent a little time on finger independence exercises but soon felt them not nearly as important. In fact, if I ever achieve my tension releasing goals, that will largely solve any actual finger problems I need to solve. Your videos have been very helpful. Thanks!!
Time and effort well used, then applied to piano technique. You are a great encouragement for showing initiative and will power in your 80s. I just turned 76, now focusing on piano. I was/am an academy trained vocalist and musician; vocal technique is like any other, golf, or tiddly winks, in that the combination of coordinated muscle use and relaxation cannot be disregarded without diminishing returns. If health and mentality hold out, so far very good, which piano study supports, I can play till I take up residence in the cemetery. Your comments are very helpful. Thank you.
You might consider Emma Lieuman on her channel, The Art of Piano Technique; her technique is predicated on extreme relaxation of the hands.
@@DavidMiller-bp7et , Age is just a number..Quite impressive to read your responses..I am truely glad i found this channel..👌🎹
Age is only a number, sometimes quite deceiving; healthiness is important. One nice thing about piano is that one can play well into seniority, if not senility. Thank you for your encouraging words.@@jozeftobben980
My understanding from my piano instructor is that she wants finger independence to release tension in unneeded muscles. So when you strike with a finger unneeded fingers movements aren't happening.
Sounds right.
Love your content! Thank you! Could you recommend some must have books for technique, sight reading, and maybe some good intermediate etudes?
I have an older video, I thinks its called 'My top 5 favorite teaching resources'. In it I give some book recommendations. Check it out and if you still have questions let me know!
Interesting indeed. This added to some other videos by other people on youtube is starting to come together to make sense to me. This is the best explanation of the circular motion I have seen yet. Actually it is not independence but weakness in 4th + 5th fingers I noticed when starting Hanon exx 2 weeks ago. Plus controlling the left pinky (I am lucky that my right pinky is fine, so it can teach the left!).
Interesting also that Chopin used to teach dropping the fingers to his students nearly 200 years ago...
I've found that Chopins music is 100X more difficult if I don't employ these methods
Hi, thank you for a nice video! I have a problem with my thumb that tend to "stick" close to my 2nd finger, which causes my c shape missing. How can i solve this problem? Is it because my muscle is too tense?
Great pieces of advice!! Thank you! (...hate these overholding exercises...😊)
You're welcome! (I've always hated them too 😂)
@@PIANO_LAB 😊
Very uncomfortable which should be a clue.
This really is some of the most helpful advice I've heard. You are a life saver thank you!
You're so welcome!
Could you make a video about how to practice releasing while playing? I could use some help with that
Great suggestion!
What is the arm and hand alignment like if your hands are playing close together on the keys directly in front your body? For example, right hand playing in the middle C scale with the left hand close by. It’s impossible to keep the arms perpendicular to the keyboard so do you crank the hand so it’s perpendicular to the keys or do you play with the arm and hand aligned straight and thus at an angle to the keyboard. I’m afraid I have tweaked my right wrist trying to figure this out and would greatly appreciate any help getting sorted...thanks and please do keep putting out these excellent videos.
Angle your elbow.
Not "The" teacher but this was a great question which I resolved after a bunch of confusing "rule" pronouncements about alignment, seemed contradictory, even from Craig. Right in front of the body must be compensated for by postural adjustments, pulling back slightly with torso, to allow for cramped maneuverability, perhaps some finger changes, too, using them as they are most comfortable, not clinging to edited or early chosen finger recommendations.
Obviously, when playing high with LH or low with RH involves some to the same solutions. I will often the raise the hands a little higher by playing with higher wrists and a little higher and farther back than most sit. This shows up in my scale and arp practice with up to 5 8vas range. I was trying to keep my hand square to the keyboard in all situations which resulted in tension and anxiety. As my RH went really low, LH high, I could see that to keep the arm aligned with the hand at whatever angle was dictated by the range relieved all problems, looks good, plays good with fingers free-straight line behind the hand not the keyboard. This was a quandary for me, mostly in scales and arps in which I use 90% of all 88 keys, but also appears in music, low melody in RH, high one in LH, crossed hands, mostly a problem in contrary motion when extreme leaning, and there is a proper way to do this, is impossible; good and right leaning works in parallel motion.
It is a detail that slips past most teachers in a hurry to give simplified explanations, like one size fits all. NOT. Great question. If I am twisting my wrist, it is wrong approach.
@@PassionPno Sure, but angling the elbow doesn't give a complete answer; my hand now aligns with my forearm, rather than twist the wrist in a double angle, twisting wrist, especially in extreme range quickly adds loads of tension.
I love your attitude so much ... you are willing to share your experience in a very organised but patient approach. You explain things in a way that others can understand. Please keep your videos up for aspiring pianists of the future, you care so much about the construction of the Modern piano and the most natural and economic way to accomplish goals. You ultimately combine Taubman and Russian elements in a seamless way. You should also check out Rae De L'ile and her book "Fit For Piano". She focused her PHD on Focal Dystonia, causes and treatment through retraining. She attended Taubman and Lister-Sink workshops as part of her research.
Leschetizki also advised pianists to do finger holding exercises ... A pedagogue Brenda Risden published a detailed essay on different schools of piano technique and recommendations, as well as Lister-Sink. They're such interesting reads!!!
@Rachel Starritt Thank you so much! I do put a TON of work into these videos so I'm really glad they are helpful.
Thank you also for the recommended reading, I'll have to check it out!
This does sound interesting! Thanks!
Hi, again. Going through all C's tutorials, again. No new vids forthcoming; he has given me enough to work on for quite a while, no limits. You should comment more, your contributions are very high quality, thorough, mature approach, so lots of informed approaches. Following the best lines of study, anyone's potential is virtually infinite.
Agree about Craig and his approach, your articulation of his appeal is virtually the same as mine.
Saying hi, again. You're very articulate.
Great video!! Totally agree! Now, Imagine Cortot watching this video "😒" haha 😆
My teacher has me doing Czerny to help make the fingers respond to my control/command. Not necessarily making them independent. Also he advises maintaining light touch to the keys at all times, never lifting them off the keys as it’s a waste of movement. He’s bitching at me about having a tension in my thumbs though. I don’t know how to get rid of that.
Piano mastery is a long and winding road.
@@DavidMiller-bp7et 8 months in I want to fucking quit lol. Incredibly frustrating.
@@ThePROFESS10NAL Choosing a teacher is a big deal, maybe make or break one's piano inspiration. It sounds to me, that maybe a change of teachers or at least a rest from this one. I have had a bunch and found that most weren't that good, at least for me. They were often people who played pretty well, and decided to try to make money out of their efforts, but good players are very often not good teachers; just the blunt reality. I stick with Craig because of his approach and personality. There are tons of resources out there to suit every taste. Try to find them; you have to rummage around; I refer to myself as a blind hog looking for an acorn. If I persist, I will eventually find it. Craig is giving me what I need; he is quite good for earlier students. I have about 10-15 years logged of playing; still much to learn. Craig's many tutorials provide a very coverage of basic and productive technique. Subscribe and you will get all C's lessons from the beginning. It sounds like maybe you couldn't do much worse than your present situation. Look for something new, new directions, new approach, complete re-working. If it's not fun, you are doing something wrong. Takes some analysis to figure out what it is.
I think its not about finger independence here when u talking about lifting of 4th finger... its rather about finger functionality... since u use it rarely in normal daily life all your life unless of course u are hand drummer or something... so u will naturally have less functionality in it.
From my perspective real finger independence is about ability to use any finger at any key efficiently which nobody seems to talk about here when talking about finger independence or technique as such. Like playing your hanon or whatever it is on just white keys wont get u too far in whole process of playing piano or keyboard. Even just your scales.
But play a simple hanon exercise on mixed scale or any key combo in progressive manner on any mixed scale... u will have to resolve many fingering issues during the even simple run. Like Do simple repetitive sequence of like 4 or higher number of notes progressing one note on any scale down to more than 2 octaves.
Like just take a squence of simple four notes C, D, E, F D, E, F, G E, F, G, A and so on C# scale down to 2 or 3 octaves and back. Now u will have fingering problems to solve at end of each tetrachord. Like when u play sequence F#, G#, A#, B u wud like to play B key with your little finger not thumb cause its more convenient and faster to execute. You will try use thumb at only next sequence i.e. G#, A#, B, C# cause now its more efficient and easy to slide thumb... and more u wont hit next C# with index finger cause u have to play A# again in next sequence so u might use middle finger for that. This is one case okay.
Now when u traversing backwards. Its different scenario if u just returning from just C# or its middle ocatve u traversing.... Like if its last C# u returning u can easily do C# with index finger and strike B with thumb and use 4th finger to strike A# and back up with following finger. No problem. But if you coming back from like next D# (its middle octave) ... now u can still strike C# and D# of higher octave with 2nd and 3rd finger but u will have to strike A# & G# with your 2nd & 3rd finger... u cant use 4th finger for A# as u still have to strike C# in next C#, B, A#, G# sequence. Than obvious choice for your even next coming sequence of B, A#, G#, F# wud be to use little finger on B rather than 4th finger which u might be tempted to naturally if u haven't practiced it and follow up the rest as usual 😃
Now point is mixed scale can pose lot of lil lil problems on the way for even simple sequence like this. And most time they the scales used in music filmy or whatever. U see at same location u have to use 3 different figuring style. Now u will need the real finger independence here. When to strike and particular key with what finger depending on situation in same sequence. I mean this is what the real problem I found here. I have just started to play a keyboard and can play scales pretty comfortably if not super fast. But same scales are very different thing when playing simple sequences. These are the technical or technique your fingers and your mind must be well versed with if I have to progress. Cause in scales u play sequencly and index fingure do fine with C# or little figure with A# but for simple 4 keys sequences like these on that scale u learned figure always land on those key rather than what u intend to for progressing smoothly. So u have to teach your fingers as well as your mind to think clearly especially when traversing fast.
In white keys ( C scale) a simple sequence like this is no problem at all. Just progress your thmb at every sequence and uu can easily traverse whole keyboard without even practice. But mixed scales are different entities. have to solve finger locking situations of efficient playing. And I think that's the problem with Hanon exercises are. U cover a lot and gain not that much what u really need. Few exercises are good certainly for developing certain tactics or technique but most are simple variation of previous ones... wont lead u much unless u practice them on mixed scales. And then u will encounter same kinda problems at those key junctions... and I think that's far more important than building speed for nothing of that white only scale. No matter how speedy u get on white scale u will be dead locked is fraction of that speed on mixed scale. 😃
And I gone through lot of teaching videos here... nobody talks about those things which are very basic things I think. There are 2 or 3 type of problems at junctions and 3 or 4 ways getting around it. And more importantly, it make u capable of using fingers independently on the fly. I might be using it a low speed not Tom & Jerry kinda fast but comfortably enough to play filmy songs here (Bollywood) ... Speed can come later but these are essential for beginner like me. I mean I myself have to solve this problem but haven't perfected yet .. I mean learned behaviour still crops on of simple scales.... smile ... But at least I now know what I need to do. It might not be a problem for u experienced guys cause u have already solved that long ago but as a beginner, u lack the confidence to trust yourself ... like knowledgable ppls might be doing different way... So u need conformance but what u get all the high fy crap about piano in the name of beginner lessons but never about all this which I think is very essential for me even to start as a beginner. U will find lot of Hanon tutorials on C scale on Net but not one on mixed scale and if u get any rarely ... he will be doing it so fast that one wonder what the heck happened just here. 😃😂
So my saying of all this is you guys should care for such minor problem of ours as beginners. What might be very obvious for guys might be real obstacle for us as beginners. Anyway thank u for listening... if u really listening of course! ...smile
Bye
Good detailed comments. Beginners are in more need of good starting habits than anyone. Most don't, but I like the detail.
@@DavidMiller-bp7et, Can you provide me/us with good starting habits..🙏
Kind regards..
I appreciate it but I must refer you to Craig's long list, hundreds of video tutorials on various aspects of good technique. If you follow them, one by one, sequentially from the earliest, you will find a complete basic piano course demonstrating good technique. After developing bad habits from bad teaching, some of it my own self teaching, Craig helped me re-establish a very good basic technique in about 6 months. It all takes time, there are no tricks, hacks or secret tips that are a quick detour around a long and disciplined path to better playing, I probably commented more than anyone else on Craig's channel. As an more advanced player, I would estimate I agree with Craig about 99% of the time. Some differences are explained by different physiognomies, but there is a basic model to work off of.
Also, the need for slow, often very slow, practice cannot be overemphasized. We will not get to Carnegie Hall in a few years no matter who; even the prodigies spent 10-20 years in the trenches.
Advice from those who should know: "Practice like a snail, play like a cheetah." S Rachmaninoff. The great Itzhak Perelman always signed his autograph with "Practice Slow." How slow depends on where you are; lots of subtleties to consider. Each new skill and level can be mastered with careful work.
All the best. @@jozeftobben980
@@DavidMiller-bp7et , Thank you for your response and advice..🤝
I was looking for where to start.
Craig tutorials imho are 👌.
Ditto @DavidMiller-bp7et
I would start with "What actually is piano technique? Looks like his first one 4 years ago. Digest each one moving forward in time, through posture and on into hand positions, learning each one as one goes along, forearm shifting, rotation, etc. I started doing these this way, repeating some, implementing in my music, scales and arps. and all. I had 10-15 years of piano at the point I started and it took me about 4-6 months to get the new habits into muscle memory. Why not start at the first one and go through them sequentially. I did.
Is this what you were looking for? If you are looking for piano music to start he has several tutorials where he plays some wonderful music books for lesser experienced players. You can find any music arranged for any level.
Pay special attention to the one with the begging, dangling dog paws and his hands. Try to do this always. After a while it won't be this obvious. this is how much relaxation you're shooting for; I assure you it is possible. You will eventually play better this way than tense and forceful.@@jozeftobben980
P.S. The one, graded, exercise series which I liked was Bartok's, which focused on all kinds of musical issues, rhythm, weird key signatures, phrasing....not finger independence, per se.
PS. Bartok's graded piano series is "Mikrocosmos," levels up the ladder to really difficult.
This is missing the point. The purpose of finger exercises of Hanon and Czerny is to make a student’s fingers “stronger” since good players need to have a high-level finger fitness. I think it was Lang Lang who credited Czerny’s system for developing best technical players through his method. Finger exercises are designed to develop ‘mastery of the instrument’ which is the faculty to command the instrument. They are not musical in themselves but they enable a student to learn pieces faster and to have a high-level of finger fitness.
Good contribution but not sure I agree. Finger usage is a coordinated effort, interacting with other supporting movements. I could make a case that arm weight is more important than finger strength. For me, it's where the force levels come from and lateral forearm movement which positions the hand and fingers to work easily. For me the forearm up to the shoulders carry most of the strength. that gets transferred to the wrists and knuckle bridge which controls the finger movement down and up. Easy with relaxed effort. Watch Martha Argerich who I consider the quintessence of technique. She employs any and all movements needed to get the expressive job done. Like her, I use a slightly higher wrist for many movements and sit slightly farther back than traditionally taught, an inch or so, lean in some as needed. Martha would be, for me, the definition of command operator attributed to technique, and therefore very high levels of expression, virtually unlimited as to speed, articulations, etc.
@@DavidMiller-bp7et, Thank you for the Tip🤝
Ok, so I have some points that I don't agree with, and some that I do. First, the exercise you showed where you press down on the piano lid (or any surface I would assume) and try to move the other fingers, I have no problem with that so it is a bit disruptive of the point you are trying to make (since it is a fundamental part of your following statements.) As to pressing down vs lifting up, I can lift with any of my fingers fine also, however, it is limited as to how much I can lift with the 4th and 5th fingers compared to the others, so no problem there. However, the exercise I was taught was not to lift the fingers high but rather to place all of the fingers on the keys and play each note independently without dropping any of the other fingers, which has drastically increased my finger independence. I was never shown to lift my finger high, so that wasn't an issue. As for typing, no... one doesn't typically move the hand if one actually took typing classes back when typewriters were actually a thing. One was taught to hold the hand in a single location for the most part and move the fingers. In fact I would argue that if one has the base of the palm properly supported and move only the fingers, it protects against carpal tunnel issues people tend to get when "free form" moving their hands around, often allowing their wrists to bend and creating issues with tendon friction in the carpal tunnel. Actual secretaries (back decades ago) who had to type continuously all day, day after day at high speeds could not risk this and were taught to keep their arm and wrist positions relatively motionless and controlled and move the fingers for the most part. (I know this because I went through this training.) Now, a piano is a totally different beast and I do realize that arm motion is critical to keeping the wrist in proper alignment so there's no argument there, just that the analogy with a typing keyboard doesn't hold up.
My problem is getting the left hand and the right hand to play two different things at the same time.
How on earth do I play Ode to Joy!? This video explains why I struggle putting the middle and pinky finger down while keeping 4 up.
Virtually impossible. I have seen Lang Lang show off a bit with about as extreme as I've seen. I work with natural endowments rather than go against them.
I love when people teach piano by closing the piano 😅
The recommendations in Hanon's book might be the most ignored piece of piano literature there is. At least I hope it is.
He teaches everything that you shouldn't do!
I started learning piano and basic sheet music around 14 months ago. I can honestly say it was when I could read the bass and treble in sync it became 60% easier. I can pick up basic sheet music now and play both hands reasonably comfortable
My right hand fingers are so weak and I cannot play piano so nice and it isn't flow 😭!!
Same here
@@Hx_jamie 😔🤝🏽
Should be coordinated effort, not just finger control. Common issue.
Rotation of the forearm is a solution, not any strength of fingers.
I'm a Chiropractor that suffered a shoulder injury, and due to a medical error I've had to completely change my approach. As a consequence I've become quite the specialist for shoulder and arm treatments. I started playing the piano 8 months ago after my retirement and now I'm fascinated by piano techniques. Because I can't use shoulder movement to help my piano playing, I'm relying on finger strength to help my playing. But that doesn't present a problem since I developed a technique to treat shoulders and have very strong fingers. Every shoulder specialist that I've consulted have made the comment.
I've made a video which will soon be on You Tube for my exercises for the low back (which requires 30 seconds to one minute each day) as well as techniques to reduce tensions and develop strength in all the fingers. From what I observed in this video, you would benefit from doing these techniques.
Please let me know
Thanks for sharing.