BATMAN + BATGIRL = As Disgusting As You Think? | The Vanishing Point
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The romance between Batman and Batgirl in the DC Animated Universe has rubbed people the wrong way since its inception. But is it...truly gross?
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#Batman
#Batgirl
#BatmanBeyond - บันเทิง
![[안방1열 풀캠4K] 베이비몬스터 'FOREVER' (BABYMONSTER FullCam)│@SBS Inkigayo 240707](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_2HL-ogzzBU/mqdefault.jpg)
I was never opposed to the idea of Batgirl having a crush on her mentor, but the fixation Bruce Tim has on trying to make them an official couple is just weird.
You do realize he's the first one to pair her with Dick, right?
"Wonder Woman is 18 at the beginning of Justice League"
WHAT THE ACTUAL FRICK.
Lies! Lies! Lies!
There are also hints that she was around in Ancient Greece though so I’m not sure if the 18 thing is actually true?
@@tiptapricot Well Bats did say Diana was a Princess from a society of immortal warriors. Key word 'Immortal'
MLPFiMBrony2232 yeah and in Paradise lost she saw a vase in a museum and congratulated the artist like she knew them. She also knew the statue in Harv Hickman’s house was a Roman copy, either meaning she just has a good eye for true Greek art or that, again, she was around to see the original.
She looks a lot older than 18. Like compare her to Barbara or Kara and the way Diana’s drawn is more adult.
Still not a fan of the ship. Especially with the scene of Bruce talking about "how much she has grown". That's creepy especially in the context that he will go onto date her
Bruce was putting on a show as the billionaire playboy who is friends with Commissioner Gordon. Batman isn't the type of person who would REALLY say that to a young woman he'd known as a teenager, and you won't find him talking like that anywhere else except when he's wearing his "Bruce Wayne" mask. It's weird with the context of hindsight I guess, but it's not like he knew they'd go on to date anyway.
@@AbjectPermanence That doesn't change the fact that it's weird. Just because he had his mask on doesn't mean it's something weird and uncomfortable to say to someone who in the context of the show has a crush on you and you will (even unknown to you) that you would eventually date. It reminds me of Woody Allen who married his stepdaughter. (I know this isn't an exact copy but it is one of the first things that pops into my head when I think jof the context of the Bruce and Barbara relationship storyline)
BARABARA IS JIM'S NIECE/ADOPTED DAUGHTER not JIM's BIRTH/BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTER
BRUCE TREATS BARBARA LIKE AN EMPLOYEE, BARBARA DEVELOPS FEELINGS for BRUCE and throw herself om onto BRUCE
@@dektran4843 We don't know if she is his niece or his daughter in Batman the animated series due to Scott Snyder writing the backstory in which Babs is Gordon's niece being written post when the animated series actually aired and Bruce Timm never stating this as fact in his canon
@@skymcnamara8239 READ Flawed Gems / The Secret Origin of Dr. Mid-Nite
Batman: Sorry, Barbara has been my sidekick for a while now.
Gordon: Well, that does make me angry that you lied to me, but she's her own person. I'll give it a pass.
Batman: I also f*cked her, Jim.
*The events of Over the Edge happen but in real life*
This such a funny comments... This dservers more likes... Lol!
Let's be honest Jim would fucking murder Bruce for that.
@@hordakprime6172 Based on what? You being a nutcase?
I read that in Conroy’s voice. 😂
@@Anti-HyperLink For Bruce having no respect and decency.
Ok, since no one is pointing it out, here it is: even ignoring it's his friend's daughter, and ignoring that she's half his age, she dated his son first.
This "ship" is creepy no matter how you put it.
Did you guys forget in the comics, they had a thing, the killing joke from the 80's
@@maymay5600
In Timm's comics or actual comics?
@@maymay5600 😖
@@maymay5600 Yes, and it was weird and gross.
@@maymay5600 Comics do weird and stupid shit too.
It doesn’t matter if Dick and Barbara’s relationship lasted for a day or a decade, *any* woman your son has ever been involved with is OFF LIMITS.
You shouldn’t even date women that your friends have been with, let alone your own adopted son.
@miles Morales ...what? Who the hell cares who she's been "made for"? They have been together.
@miles Morales Bruce legally adopted Richard. Bruce raised him, trained him, sheltered him ever since his parents died.
Even if their relationship doesn’t have the usual (or healthy in some cases) father-son feeling, Bruce will always be Richards adopted father
@miles Morales Whatever age Richard was when Bruce adopted him DOESN’T MATTER. Richard is still Bruce’s adopted legal son and even if you take the age gap out of the equation there’s still the fact that the ship is awful
@miles Morales that movie only gets a ‘whatever pass’ since 1. They’re around the same age while Richard was a young teenager and 2. They don’t even get together in the end
All else aside, the plot point of their being together was just plain unnecessary. It doesn’t add anything or further Bruce as a character.
All it does is make us feel uncomfortable and kind of icky. Batman as a character in this universe is shown to be stubborn and single minded. He’s not above keeping secrets or manipulating people.
But he’s also shown that the reasons for this is that he cares _very_ deeply about others, such as people that are disadvantaged or downtrodden, his friends and teammates and especially the members of his found family.
He’s the type of person to sacrifice his own happiness again and again for the sake of others. So age gaps aside, the idea of him dating the daughter of a close friend and the former lover of his adopted son, knowing how deeply that would hurt and alienate them, just feels antithetical to his character.
It’s against everything we associate with Batman. He might alienate people for the sake of the mission, for a play to save or protect the common people, sure. But for his own selfish gratification in what is likely to only ever be a short lived fling? That’s just not the Batman I’ve come to know.
Andrea Beaumont
Poison ivy
Barbara Gordon
The guy obviously has a thing for redheads.
Can ya blame him
who doesn't
Who doesn't indeed
What about Viki Vale?
@@Amy-yf9zc Hi look at this animation of Batman he made on youtube th-cam.com/video/bhZBTEHq-VU/w-d-xo.html
It will forever be fucked up considering their first interaction reads like a student-teacher type relationship with Bruce commenting on how much she's grown and looking back after finding out what happens between them is just disgusting. You can humanize and give Batman flaws without it being abhorrent.
The Bruce/Babs thing is what I consider to be Bruce’s 2nd biggest mistake after what happened to Tim. But, considering how much of a hermit he becomes in Beyond, I accept it. The truth is, having Bruce and Babs stop talking to each other because of a immoral relationship is better than just killing Babs off for the sake of making old Bruce a loner.
Immoral? Maybe, but not legally considering she'd be older than me. Strange and unnecessary? Yes.
@@brandonosborne6894 immoral in the sense that, his partner, his "son" was dating her. Do you want your dad dating your ex girlfriend? It's about respecting boundaries. Barbara and Bruce did was disrespectful towards Dick's feelings.
At the same time, Barbara should not have dated Dick at all as she helped to form another wedge in an already Rocky father-son relationship.
If the spent less time of rooftop and more time with Leslie Tompkins, perhaps they could have avoided the unpleasantness all together.
@@falleneldor I also like point out that even if the Titans existed in the dcau and Dick and Kory (Starfire) were dating Bruce and Barbara being together would be very very very weird and uncomfortable especially if dick introduces Starfire to Bruce and Barbara that would be very very uncomfortable.
@The Panel Biter
Batcat or Wonderbat should have been the relationships that they should have focused on I mean come on it's the writers fault that batcat and Wonderbat didn't happen in the dcau I mean come on Bruce being in a relationship with Catwoman that makes sense Bruce be in a relationship with Wonder woman that makes sense heck even Bruce being in a relationship with Zatana make sense even Bruce and Talia al ghul makes more sense any of these relationships are ten times better
Then the Brucebabs ship
Naquan Green
I thought I was the only one who enjoyed wonderbat.
Learning their ages during the DCAU version of the relationship does make it a little less creepy, but WOW they need to update Barbara and Tim's character models if they're supposed to be 30 and 18 in modern DCAU stuff. Also despite that I can't help but feel a lot of the creepiness of the relationship comes from Bruce knowing Barbara while she was still a minor, then her patterning herself off him, which feels like it could be seen as grooming.
Really the real revelation here is how short Dick and Babs relationship was. As I said in the Epilogue video, Dick Grayson is the continually most mishandled character in all the DCAU.
It's not weird in my opinion it's like if you were an artist when you are a teenager inspired by another artist who you had some sort of online friendship/ mentorship with when her or him, and then when you eventually grew up y'all started dating. Mind you there was no grooming involved in the example
Batman slept with his old student, the daughter of one of his closest longtime friends, who also happens to be his son’s ex-girlfriend, and therefore could have been his daughter-in-law if things were a little different (as basically proven by other timelines), all in a scene that was just kinda forced into a classic storyline straight from the comics. I get that they were trying to raise the stakes and make it seem like Batman was more invested in her than he should have been, but something about that doesn’t quite feel right to me. As a fan of the original Killing Joke, it feels like an unnecessary change to the entire story that comes across as extremely awkward and makes Batman kinda look like a creep. It distracts from the satisfaction of seeing this famous comic come to life. We shouldn’t have to analyze the timeline and ask the creators about their intentions and make clarifications about differences between continuities in order to try to justify this, and then still feel weird about this version of Batman whenever we think about this film.
Bruce x Barbara is like asking if Batman should kill...
It may be an interesting avenue to explore, but when the property is at its most definitive, that would never happen.
Exactly
I like to think art is open to interpretation.
@@StarrPower2232 The problem with that argument is that it questions the limits of when art is unrecognizable.
I agree with this on another level. So true!
my tits or the DCAU olicity
Because its Thursday
Hi look at this animation of Batman he made on youtube th-cam.com/video/bhZBTEHq-VU/w-d-xo.html
Because it's thursday more like because I'm batman.
I still don’t know what that’s in the intro, I just know it’s hilarious
The WORST part of the DCAU is their relationship. I choose to forget it.
Luckily it’s easy enough to ignore. Wonder bat ship all the way.
Why?
Agreed.
@@MichaelMcCallister097 indeed and yup, love wonderbat
Me tow
As further evidence that Bruce Timm also finds the ship weird is that he said the same thing on the special features of Batman TAS much earlier on.
Most bat-ships are weird. Keeping things with the bats is kinda gross. Maybe if their first anthology series (other than Detective Comics) hadn't been called Batman Family.
I could have done without it in the DCAU. It really makes it hard for me to watch DCAU Batman stuff. I view Batman and Batgirl as a teacher/student relationship and as someone in education, it just feels too taboo for me. Coupling that with Babs' father being one of Batman's closet allies and dare say friends, doesn't help either. I mean there isn't anything technically wrong with it but it just makes it difficult to watch DCAU Batman films and shows now.
Edit: I see, instead of a counter-argument, you all go for personal attacks and internet buzzwords that have lost all meaning? Got to love the irony of you folks getting "triggered" over point of view that they think you're actually upset about. So we are snowflakes and lunatics because we have an opinion on a cartoon plot point? Even though the video asked its viewers for their opinion, Yet you all still got mad about it?
The DCAU Bruce Wayne is admirable and one of the best iterations of the character but the throwaway line about him and Barbara stands out for a lot of reasons. He's her mentor and considerably older and she essentially dated his son (and in the Lost Years Dick implies he hoped to propose to Barbara before he found out she was Batgirl). It's not even a line that strengthens the story of Batman Beyond, so I personally just try to ignore it.
Nightman221k I tried to as well, but I just couldn’t do it. So I stick to other continuities(YJ and The DCAFU)
Mardon NaLou Honestly, I loves JL and JLU as a kid. But I don’t know if I want to watch BtAS due to the Bruce/Barbara thing. Especially since Dick Grayson is my favorite superhero ever and Dick/Babs is my otp. It’s just too weird for me.
@@Nightman221k Dick Grayson deserved better like Starfire I hated how to DCAU completely screwed him over there's no justification to how Dick Grayson got screwed over in the DCAU I mean they could have at least introduce Starfire and the rest of the Titans heck they could have introduced Donna Troy and have her be in a relationship with dick considering wonderbat didn't happen (even though it should have) WonderGrayson would have been the next best thing Dick Grayson X Donna Troy at least Dick got treated better in Young Justice (Nightwing X zatanna) and teen Titans (Robin X Starfire)
@@MardonNaLou Dick Grayson deserved better.
There is a way to do it right........
*BY NOT DOING IT AT ALL*
I will never like this relationship. I see it as a teacher\student, the deau does it in a subtle way that I appreciate because you can just not think about it.
It’s hella foul I’m cool w Bruce Timms sexual innuendos but the Batman batgirl thing is fucking foul and taints dcau batman.
The only reason I could maybe get behind it is bc i kinda like the idea of Batman being a scumbag in his personal life. It kinda adds a decent amount of depth that even though Batman is trying to be a hero he’s still a fucked up guy
*raises hand* Mattie? Mattie? You can't just drop that "Wonder Woman was 18 in Secret Origins" bombshell on us and then not elaborate on it! MaTTIE?
Tim : "Don't drag me into this"
LMAO I love Tim Drake
Wonder Woman is 18 at the start of Justice League!?!?!?!
Wow, being an Amazon actually means something. O_o
Adam Napolitano I thought she was over a hundred years old
@@srstriker6420 not in the Justice League continuity she's not.
Adam Napolitano I'm confused about this because which is canon, is that Wonder Woman is immortal and is over a thousand years old or is not immortal?
@@srstriker6420 well in the show she has a different origin then the comics, I don't think she's immortal in the cartoon.
Adam Napolitano and heard that rumour that hades is her father and doesn't make her Demi goddess?
I agree that I like Bruce and Barbara as "that thing that exists but never should have been".
It’s also a good example of audiences reacting to a problem with a narrative, but not quite knowing how to articulate it. Obviously, you’re not supposed to like the hookup from The Killing Joke, but people often cite that as an issue with the movie itself. I think that what really struck people about that was how it felt just kind of… shoved in there. That sex scene existed purely for the sake of added shock value and a fruitless attempt to raise the emotional stakes. Most people don’t overthink straight to video animated film scripts like I do, so all that they usually have to say about it is “EEEWWWWW bad ship”. To quote Mr. Plinkett: “You might not have noticed… but your brain did.”
Alex Davis What about it implies that you’re not supposed to like it? It just seems like a another reason for Batman to go after Joker. A fridgeing situation
Alex Davis Bruce tim has a sick fethis.
No the problem eveyone has with that scene is that it was a cheap way to show flaws in a character and it also always seems like Bruce Timm is trying to force the relationship into everything he creates. I always thought that scene would have had a greater impact if Batman pushed her off and rejected her as it would have shown Barbara the reality of being Batgirl, that it wasn't all how she expected it to be. Barbara was chasing a fantasy, the whole reason of her wanting to be Batgirl was all about the thrill of it, the popularity, and to get into Batman's pants.
Mr plinkett sucks though...
Hope they fix his VCR soon...
9:07 with them using the old models, Terry is imagining the story and he knows how they looked when Barbra was in her 20s and Tim in his early teens. The costume for Tim in the display case is too small for a college kid and Bruce being Bruce there probably isn’t many photos of the Bat Family after JL/JLU. That’s just me though.
Have definitely brought this up in a past video, the “so and so is being told a story and imagines it this way” works very well for this flashback and others.
My problem isn't with the two dating. As you said, Bruce and Barbara are rational adults by the time they start dating. My problem is with how it ended: with Bruce ruining Dick and Barbara's engagement by getting the girl his son was dating pregnant. That just doesn't feel like something Batman would do.
The age difference is always less important than being Barbara's mentor/boss and adopted father of her ex. Barbara is always either aged up or de-aged to pair with people.
I mean, she has a doctorate. The cartoon actually aged her down to pair her with Dick, and only starting with the Mr. Freeze movie.
You have to remember, when B:TAS first aired, Dick had been out of Gotham for the most part for the previous 12 years. He was actually in space when Jason died; conversely, Bruce was busy recovering from Bane when he was supposed to be married. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini literally had no idea what to do with him. (Though to be fair, neither did Marv Wolfman, judging by early 90s Teen Titans.) So, he always felt like the weakest link of Batman: The Animated Series.
I don't argue that it couldn't happen or that it's implausible that it could; but I really prefer to ignore this couple happening. Bruce being intimate with Barbara seems so needless since it never played any real significance in the DCAU. Barbara telling Terry about them dating reiterated the fact that Barbara doesn't like that Bruce has let himself be a miserable, lonely recluse; but think about it: is it necessary that she had to have seen him as a romantic option in the past for her tell Terry that she felt that way? I really don't think so, since I feel that ultimately it kind of makes it seem like the writers thought that just being a mentor to Barbara wasn't enough to make their relationship matter even though with the Robins it's an understood father-son dynamic. Forcing a past-tense romance really cheapens things in my eyes.
It's kind of disappointing seeing as at least every other romance Bruce has had actually had a side of him explored or something you could read into that says something about how his heart works. But with Barbara, it's only spoken about in past tense or in the one scene in Batwoman where he kind of treated her like she was a one-night-stand he'd like to ignore. We never even hear Bruce bring up their past as a couple which is pretty necessary to know what he really thought about things.
That and while I could 100% see Barbara having a one-sided crush but even if there were feelings there, it makes me like Bruce less that he would take advantage of a mentor/student relationship and I'd like to think he cares about Dick enough to not do something like that (cause Dick looks up to Bruce, Bruce raised him from a young age, it'd be like your dad going out with your first girlfriend).
I think at the end of the day it only happened for two reasons: Because they wanted to make Batman Beyond more controversial (I mean, dropping a bombshell like this really ONLY served to stir up fans since it didn't matter at all in the BB series), and maybe because Bruce Timm has a fascination with shipping Bruce Wayne with almost every female character he can (seriously, I can appreciate the good writing of the scenes of Bruce and Lois or Bruce and Diana; but in the end we already KNOW it's not going to end up happening in the long run).
WTF Wonder Woman was 18???!?!!
Killing joke didn’t happen
Let’s never mention it again
Never mention what?
honestly same
#KeepKillingJokeASecret
Killing Joke happened,it was just Joker's backstory and he singing a little song. That's it.
Nope still hate it and there is nothing in this multiverse to change my mind "mistake" or otherwise.
You don't have to like it but remember they are both adults who make their own decisions. Even if it's a bad one.
@@Gsmooth84 Barbara is like a teen wtf
@Joaquin J Fernandez Which Barbara are you referring to? I'm pretty sure I'm not talking about a teen Barbara so stop freaking out smh.
@@mob5134 ...did you even watch the shows or at least this video? It was a 10 years gap at max
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Hell yes
Wait.... wonder woman was 18 in the show?
Maybe the human equivalent to her amazonian age which prolly is 180 years or so
That makes sense Lol cause I was legit wondering how she was that young😂😂
That beginning got me off guard
Yes she got old enough to make her own decisions, but she was essentially groomed by her boyfriends dad... there's no way to spin this as not fucking GROSS AS HELL!
Batman is only 12 years older than Barbara… really?!
Really really
Damian-13 tim-16 Jason-25 Nightwing-27 Batgirl-26 batman-39
My age range for the batfamily
Batgirl is Older than All the Robins.
@@vulbvibe so she is like 28
@@spoicygato5961 Not that it matters, but Catwoman and Batman has roughly 11 year age gap.
Its probably my least favorite “thing” in the entire DCAU. I do my best to pretend it never happened.
She dated his son... and she’s his best friend’s daughter. I think BTAS Bruce has more character than to pursue a relationship even if he developed feelings for her.
Is it canon?
I must be one of the few people on Earth to watch this scene and not fly into a rage or do an impression of Ace Ventura's crying in the shower scene.
It actually made Bruce and Barbara seem more human, well, for me anyway.
Hahahaha! It does seem like that. I think without the inflection and body language that comes with IRL interactions, the internet has a way of making any conversation, or opionions read like everything is more critical, or more important then it really is.
Compare/contrast everything said about the final season of Game of thrones online vs real life conversations with friends/family about the same subject. (Or the last Jedi or Ghostbusters 2016 if you want topics more divisive for example)
I can write between 3 paragraphs 3 PAGES about my feelings/thoughts about this Bat-Ship wreck. IRL, my arms are flailing wildly, my tone is silly, but clear and direct, I'm laughing the whole time, which is about a 1-5 minutes of back & forth conversation. Online though, it can read as if Bruce Timm killed my childhood cat, stuffed it and mailed it to me on my birthday with me screaming his "Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiimm"
Doing my best William Shatner impersonation.
@@gamemotron4594 Hi look at this animation of Batman he made on youtube th-cam.com/video/bhZBTEHq-VU/w-d-xo.html
Yea I literally watched the scene and it didn’t phase me at all. The nerds was tripping wayyy too hard over it
@@TheBondsbeyondtime then there should have been a Batman X Wonder woman sex scene and Batman X Catwoman sex scene and Batman X zatanna sex scene and Batman X Harley Quinn sex scene and Batman X poison ivy sex scene and Batman X Talia al ghul sex scene I would have taken any of these rather than the Bruce/Babs one any day of the week
Batman X Catwoman Batman X Wonder woman Batman X Talia al ghul Batman X zatanna even Batman X Harley Quinn and Batman X poison ivy these relationships make a lot more sense.
With BatCat making the most sense.
@@joshstephens413 Yup.
I realised a lot of the discomfort is due to Batman being something of a mentor to a lot of fans IRL. To see Batman to be seen to taking advantage of that kind of relationship upsets us because we understandably expect him to be held to a higher standard as a guru
#WonderBats4LYFE
Well just realised that was the second time Bruce pulled the going under the tunnel with paper gag since he also did it in Batman and Harley Quinn with Booster Gold
*Green Lantern
@@dcauwatchtower He was talking to booster gold from the watchtower when nightwing was dissing justice League members in the batmobile. Been watching a lot of your videos recently and it's great to see people discussing the dcau with such passion.I'm trying to say that I've watched every episode of Batman the animated series and the new Batman adventures and I'm going to start watching the Zeta Project soon.
Eggbaby sound effect
Wow it's been 11 months we're going through a global pandemic, and I still haven't started watching the Zeta Project. Probably more likely that I rewatch Batman Beyond. thanks random commenter! 🥚👶
@@tokenbricks3355 no problem.
To me, I've always found a relationship between Barbara and Bruce very uncomfortable. To me, they've always had a father/daughter dynamic in all forms of media. I can understand how Barbara could have a crush on Bruce, or have strong, deep feelings for because he's a billionaire playboy publicly and is Batman. Any college to normal adult woman would probably find that attractive, even without knowing he's Batman. But, seeing Bruce reciprocate that is uncomfortable, because of the friendship he has with Gordon and the fact that knowing one of her past relationships is his adopted son.
To appease my discomfort, I think, at least in the DCAU, Barbara would have feelings for Bruce, but he would never share those feelings because of the reasons I mentioned previously. And to push the envelope even further, you have Bruce bg tempted and even have those feelings, but know that it's morally wrong and not commit to it.
Thank you Bruce Tim... for completely f-ing up my whole childhood 😡
🤔
@AnthonyOMEGA
Bruce timm could literally be thrown with other Terrible Writers who ruin a lotta childhoods Like (Dan didio superheroes can't be happy and everyone should act like Batman or be like Batman and everything needs to be dark and edgy) (I don't care about continuearity or characters Brian Michael bendis) (I made Peter Parker act like a douchebag and an a hole and have him have his own business and had good concept but executed poorly Dan slott) (edgelord and filling worshiper Mark Millar) (modern racist old senile scumbag sexist Frank Miller) (modern edgelord Garth Ennis) (superheroes can't be happy and I made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil Joe quesada) do I need to go on
If your childhood was impacted at all by the DCAU, then Bruce Timm crafted your childhood, and nobody can take that away from you. Same with any of those guys. “Ruin my childhood” is such a silly concept.
@@dcauwatchtower
I can’t enjoy shows I used to like because of this. He ruined my potential to enjoy his shows.
Is that better?
I like your breakdown on Batman's past relationships. Relationships in general are weird even the good healthy ones. I dont see a problem with them having a connection. It is, after all, two consenting adults.
The reason it's inappropriate is the mentor-student relationship and the power imbalance since Batman is effectively Batgirl's boss. It's even made clear within the show that the relationship is seen as inappropriate. Bruce is made uncomfortable by Barbara's infatuated call, Barbara is reluctant to tell Terry about the relationship, and Terry is as surprised as he is because the relationship was inappropriate.
Willie logan you right they are adults
@@wfjhDUI yeah yeah yeah, just shut up.
She’s his son’s ex-girlfriend. That’s wrong.
@@JP-sd7di and his best friend’s daughter
Mistakes or not, adults have relationships, it happens. I always thought, since I was a kid actually, that the DCAU handled the Batman/Batgirl dynamic in a really subtle, mature way.
I still find the relationship weird, but I can get over it. It’s not that big of a deal.
bro really said there's nothing wrong with dating someone you've known since they were 16 💀
I think the reason this relationship gets so much hate is because it's kind of a reality check for comic nerds who idolize Batman to the point that they forget he's a flawed human and capabilite of making mistakes.
Massive difference between a flawed hero and an absolute creep
@@JogVodka How is it creepy? She is legal and wanted him.
The Killing Joke = Will it canon? That is the question.
ComiXProvider FTW_02 it can’t Barbara can walk in beyond
@@joeytheslimeboi8900 i think the beyond or beyond 2.0 comic explained that tho
Mattie Washburn oh God your right
Well besides Barbara, there’s also the fact that the DCAU Joker has a clear backstory and is pretty much evil/insane with no redemption (as is his portrayal in Paul Dini and Alex Ross’ works since they both prefer the former bored mobster turned criminal mastermind). That would lessen the impact of the Killing Joke flashbacks if we know for sure 100% that they’re fake.
@@joeytheslimeboi8900 She got better.... Hell, she's gotten better in the comics. I know it's mostly a retcon BUT they also explained it, in-universe, so it counts.
It always kind of bugged me, in the comics, that Batman didn't just take her to the nearest Lazarus Pit right after anyway. Yeah, you have that period of insanity but that should be easy to deal with. For that matter why not do the same when Bane broke his back?
To be fair look at what happened to hawk girl and Gl. Probably gives Bruce enough reason to not want to pursue WW.
Exactly!
I mean, it could've worked between them if Shayera hadn't been lying the whole time. With Diana's lasso that'd take lies out of the equation.
@@Nightman221k Eventually it had somehow worked considering that 50 years in the future they have Warhawk together.
Answer now why Superman has black eyes in Timmverse, even when zoomed up.
Ar...art style...?
I mean, that’s art style. Haha. Are you looking for an in-universe explanation? Because his eyes aren’t literally “missing.”
@ Maybe they should all just have Brock's eyes then. Lol
@@dcauwatchtower also why I asking that, remember that reason Lex Luthor in DCAU looks like that, and not like in any comics of that period (Trump parody) is because they modeled him after Telly Savalas.
It's not even just weird, it's creepy. He met her at sixteen, that's the biggest thing for me. It's just crazy to me that Bruce would see her that way at any point in time. Add that to the fact that she dated his own son and she's his best friend's daughter. I get the whole "making a mistake" thing, but I personally don't like my favorite superhero being portrayed as a creep without self-control or a good moral sense when it comes to dating.
The problem is not in the age, because both are of legal age and can consent to what they do, the problem is in the context of the relationship, Batman got his adopted son's girlfriend pregnant, it is the Nightwing who was injured in this whole process because he suffered a double betrayal and betrayal hurts a lot!!! That's why it is so revolting for almost everybody (or at least for me).
BATMAN X CATWOMAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN CANON BATCAT
FOREVER ❤️💖❤️💖
Batman and Diana forever
Loved this as always keep it up!
I don’t have as big of a problem as most considering in the context of the DCAU they do get together when Barbara is much older. However, Timm’s fixation on Batgirl just creeps me out because she’s my favorite superhero but his treatment of her is creepy as hell
The only thing that makes the situation as uncomfortable as it is, for me at least, is the character model. Since as you mentioned they used her early 20's model that looked so young in comparison to Bruce's more bulky adult model, especially since I grew up with BTAS and TNBA that thought was always in the back of my mind when watching the Killing Joke. It didn't translate to me at first when I watched Mystery of the Batwoman because I was too young to understand, but rewatching it again it felt weird mostly because I imagined her still in college. But on the other hand, the BTAS Batgirl didn't set off the alarms for me because even though on the timeline she was younger, she looked older and it could be perceived as normal. With animation and especially with Bruce Timm's policies, age is malleable. For example the whole Wonder Woman being 18 dynamic I didn't even know about before watching this video, and I'd always been totally all for #WonderBat. But if I went into the show where that age was openly expressed the way it was with Batgirl, I might've had more of a problem with it but it still wouldn't feel wrong because the character model was drawn like an adult. I feel like that's really where all the discomfort comes from.
I believe Bruce Timm when he says he doesn't want to ship Bruce and Babs. He never wanted to ship them. But he's kinda always desperately wanted to softcore rule 34 them.
I think the biggest reason why people may feel off-put about the relationship (myself included) is because if it was meant to come off as a mistake, there wasn't anything in-canon really acknowledging that maybe it was. If anything, all the evidence we seem to find is that it was a mutual breakup if anything. Like, the awkward phone call in TNBA and his stance on work relationships in JL/JLA is the best evidence for it, but even then it doesn't feels like that much evidence for it, when everything else makes it feel like it was a genuine relationship with nothing but it being a mutual breakup. Plus a lot of the reasons as to why Babara stopped being Bat-Girl and why she goes down the life path we see her go into Beyond aren't really affected by that "mistake." Not even a passing mention something like "it made things a little awkward after that" or something. Plus there's the fact it's the ex of his adopted son who is also a work friend, give me an example of that working because that spells a disaster that seems to have not been bad enough to get a mention or allusion to.
Also the exclusion of Diana/Wonder Woman in his pictures is understandable considering Beyond came out before JL/JLU, but the exclusion of Andrea is weird. My guess is due to limitations from not having a model sheet for her in the TNBA style, same with Cathy. But if that's the case was there not even a pic of the one plant clone he married? I feel like she (and the others, at least Andrea) should have been brought up.
I never liked this idea much. This video let me see it from a different perspective though. To consider the behavior and intentions of Batman himself, it is understandable that he could turn to Barbara after being close with her for almost a decade. I honestly had never really considered it from that point of view, I always just reflexively didn't like it due to how much of a mistake it is. Bruce Time explaining that it being a mistake was the whole point of shipping them like that was great too.
This was such a good and unbiased view. Great video and analysis.
I've got a suggestion for a future episode of "The Vanishing Point", regarding Rubberband Man. It was never made clear after the series finale if he was ever cured of being a Bang Baby. It also leaves the question of whether Static and Gear ever shared with him the "cure for the cure". If so, did Rubberband Man take it or did he gave the superhero life up to be normal again and focus on his recording career.
I was so expecting the start of this video to be like something out of Spaceballs like someone barges in on him and says no I didn't see you playing with your dolls again.
When I first saw this relationship was in “The Killing Joke” movie. I thought it was just shoved in gratuitously in order to add drama and such. However, I’m currently going through all the animated Batman series, movies, etc. and now I see that this was kinda always there.
That being said, while I don’t actually think the relationship is healthy and can easily be seen as grooming or something to that effect, I actually really like the idea that this is a major mistake they both made and a huge flaw of Batman’s. Too often Batman’s depicted as this perfect human being but to see him do something like this I think actually gives him a good amount of character development (if explores/handled properly)
MY favorite version of the two (so far) is in “The Batman (2004)”. She’s just a kid that wants to work with the hero, and then later Robin comes along etc.
Relationships in the real world are complicated and as wrong as it may seem, these things do happen. It always makes my skin crawl personally. But if everyone involved is consenting adults, live and let live I suppose 🤷🏻
I don't feel too bad for Nightwing. I mean Barbra stopped over at his house once in the comics and Starfire opened the door. So I always thought Batman and Batgirl would be good together.
Hey, 2 years later so you may not remember but where did you get that killer shirt?
Wonder Woman was really only 18 at the start of Justice League ?? Why ?
No way! As soon as I saw the Thumbnail my mind instantly went to how Batman is Batgirl's mentor. And how staying that way makes them strong friends and crime fighters. Another informative and entertaining video. Keep it up!
Hardly a mentor. They work together. She acted as Batgirl as her own for the most part.
@@TheShockVox
He teaches her everything man, Babs would be dead without Batman's guidance. It's a student-teach relationship the same as the comics, no getting around that.
To be honest I don't really hate this ship but I don't really love either.
Just indifferent.
Love your shirt, brother!
0:19 *in the jungle song starts playing*
4:00-4:06 IDK lol to me that implies that something happened whether it be full blown sex or just a kiss. Seems like something happened and she just took it as " oh were together now". lol
1) They are both legal adults, their bodies, their feelings. They both consent to be in a relationship, literally who are you disagree ?
2) People make it sound like Bruce is old enough to be Barbara's father. They only have a ten year old gap between them, Barbara is in her early twenties and Bruce in his mid thirties. Do you incels never go out ? Do you think that such a gap is rare in couples ? fcking nerds
3) Gordon would be happy if he knew Batman wed his daughter. He knows he can trust Batman, and that he would take good care of his daugher. Instead of some literally who dating Barbara, he will be at ease knowing his friend will be part of his family. And who wouldn't want to be related to Batman ?
4) Barbara and Dick broke up, she doesn't belong to him, she's not his property. She's a free independant woman, this is not Pakistan.
5) No he is not her mentor, Barbara is mostly self trained and became Batgirl before she knew of Bruce's secret identity. And even then, I wouldn't see the problem.
@Naquin Green um... at the risk of going full 'Ross&Rachel'... they were on a Break... she was free to do what/who ever she chose... the Break ended and they picked up with little to no lost time with Dick opting to propose in under 3 weeks (with Babs/Bruce being over for several weeks before the dick/Babs reunion)
Hey Mattie!! When can we see your collection? I'm new so I don't know if you have already. You have some really hard to get ones on your wall!!
11:06 at least they were his age, met him as an adult, did not have a teacher/student relationship with him, and did not date his adopted son.
Personally i only hated the killing joke because of how mishandle it was but in term of the regular dcau relationship i didn't like it #batcat4ever but i never found it bad or anger inducing since Bruce for 90% of the time was either backpedaling or rejecting barb on a separate note while i don't like the relationship i do like the idea of barb having a crush on Bruce and dick having an issue with it i hope at some point that dynamic is explored further
I never got mad at Barberra and Bruce. It felt mutual to me and something I'm sure Gordon wouldn't mind when discussed. Also love me some Harley looking hot!
The Batman x Batgirl hookup serves no purpose except to tarnish both of their characters. It makes the Batman mythos worse.
It takes Batman, a mythical character who is supposed to be defined by his "truly incorruptible" nature (in the words of Joker), and it turns him into a groomer who impulsively has sex with his student / his adopted son's girlfriend / his best friend's daughter whom he has known since a child.
It takes Batgirl, a respectable hero in her own right, and it turns her into a pathetic infatuated loser with no judgment or self-control.
These characters are supposed to be idealized heroes.
Batman and Batgirl both deserve better than this. These writers should be ashamed of themselves for this disgusting fanfic garbage.
That opening was a little "Spaceballs" wasn't it?
I'll NEVER understand Bruce Timm's fascination with that couple, and the fact he used his works to work it in like fanfiction
The guy has some.....strange problematic tastes.
Like Harley and Joker or shipping Harley and Ivy in a very fetishy kind of way.
@@matti.8465 The Fandom ran with Harley and Ivy with little provocation... and isn't Timm on Record stating that the Babs/Bruce relationship isn't Meant to be a 'good thing'
@UCleJWr3bimf2thgE3EZarMQ None of the of the relationships you stated are presented as healthy, Timm himself said so. Guess what you dumbass, not all relationships in real life are healthy
They're adults
How can Wonder Woman be 18, when she said she knew the artist of an ancient artifact before they created any major works of art in Paradise Lost?
love the shirt. keep killing it yo
I F***ing LOVE your shirt!
I prefer Rick and Kory, anyway. As for the fact that she is his best friend's daughter, if I had a daughter who was risking her life to combat sociopath, violent, lunatics with Bruce; her sleeping with my him would just be a drop in the bucket. As covered in the video, and whats glaringly obvious, Bruce isn't exactly a shining example of sanity.
“Dick,” u mean?
At 6:10, you say that the Bruce and Barbara thing isn't happening yet by MOTBW. But she does call during that movie and hints at them seeing each other. It may have started already, or she could've just been TRYING to start it.
Yeah, likely she was more interested than Bruce at that time
I always thought only was Wonder Woman an adult in appearance, but also older because of her history of living through the history, with Steve Trevor and what not. So she'd be older than Batman
For me, I could excuse the age deficient considering they are both concenting adults. If it wasn't for the fact that he watched her grow up. Essentially had the same relationship with her as any of his other kids at that time. But maybe that is just my hang up about it. What raises a eyebrow for me is
3:36
She percieved a relationship with him during college. His son was in college at that time and they could have been dating at that time.
If Bruce didn't have a romantic aspect to thier relationship at that time. Why wouldn't he just dispel the assumption then and there? Plus no matter how short of a stent of time or how serious it got. She dated his son. That still feels wierd. Also having any romantic feelings for her so close from possible during or at the very least super close to after they had dated makes it all the more understandable why it hurt Dick so bad.
WONDER WOMAN WAS HOW OLD IN JL?!?!?!?!
We have sinned
The thing with me and this pairing is that this version of Batman literally begged his parents for forgiveness when he wanted to live a normal life with Andrea so I really can't see him going for a girl who is half his age and one hi protegees
Well in Dark knight the motion picture Barbara Gordon is just a kid along side with her brother where Harvey Dent held her brother, and mother hostages.
Batman has a fetish for ladies with names ending in A (Selena, Barbara, Talia, Diana)
PAMELA
Wow. Who’d have thought?
Like Superman and his L.L's
Batman X Wonder woman should have been Canon WONDERBAT
FOREVER ❤️❤️❤️💖
I've always seen it as a humanizing element for both characters... especially looking back on it from Commissioner Gordon's pov in batman beyond.
It makes me hate them both.
Love the shirt bro
7:53
I'm weirded out
God it’s creepy, as creepy as Batman perving on his own child.
0:20 SOMEONE CALL THE MONETIZATION POLICE!
2:40 The batman beyond episode out of the past aired before Justice league premiered so wonder woman probably wasn't on their mind at the time he might of had a picture of wonder woman somewhere he just didn't get to it before talia entered.
At 0:27, why is it that I'm having flashes of a grown-man fish sitting on a tricycle? Weird...