Thanks for posting. I have interesting memories of the times and what was trained. I was running schools with Villari's when the split happened with all the off shoots such as the Masters. I did know those people. I left the organization at the same time. I have videos of me doing those forms on my channel around 93/94, and again around 10 years ago with my first attempt to integrate traditional internal kung fu principles. Keep training and growing! Thanks for the memories.
It's alway interesting to see the many minor variations in these forms. Directional changes, added or deleted techniques, variations of foot maneuvers, etc. I trained under George for a short time and my first instructor was on George's kickboxing team, so some of mine are earlier versions. Nicely done.
@@jcleclerc7482 good eye! I was under Sensei Kevin Crossan in Dover, NH. Masters Nohelty and Bryant facilitated as senior instructors for my black belt exam.
I only saw a minor mistake with an angle transition in 2 Kata, but besides that, I’d say the forms looked pretty good!! I also don’t actively train in Kempo anymore, but still like to practice my forms so I don’t forget them. This video will definitely help. Thanks, bro! Keep it up!
For "dusting off" you old Kata you did a great job!!! I still practice the basic movements from my old Katas, but I simply can't remember them fully. Sucks getting old....LOL Much Respect! OSS!!
This is so strange to see. It is like a watered down version of all the forms. They look like they were homogenized, there are very few repeating patterns in the forms but you repeat a lot. Very interesting. Also a lot of the grappling pieces and level changes are missing. Also interesting. Where did you guys get them from ? A villari derivative ?
No, not villari. My lineage comes through George Pesare and Nick Cerio. My teacher learned from Robert Nohelty who trained directly under Cerio and Pesare. As for it being watered down: maybe. It's just what I learned. Nohelty and Bryant's "masters self defense" does seem to be more stripped down than Cerio's direct teachings. I'd love to see a more direct Nick Cerio or George Pesare iteration, unfortunately everyone seems to be dead.
@@BlackSunBoxing I may have come off a little more harsh than I intended, sorry. I started in a villari derivative and then moved to a cerio lineage. When I noticed some cerio schools were very kung fu-y, and some were very shotokan, and some very american kenpo, I did more digging and found that I was picking up pieces of cerio's teachings as he moved through his arts. I then went back to his start and landed almost accidentally in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. It is a much more sane version of kajukenbo, and the mother art of all the stuff you showed in this video. For example george pesare came to rhode island with *12* defensive movements, not the 150(or like 400? in some circles and in american kenpo, it is bananas) that shaolin kenpo schools can have. Those were directly related to karazenpo's philosophy of movements that are universal and not making the student do 12 variations of the same move in every direction 4 times like, say modern karate kata.
No offense taken. Yeah, I don't have any experience with Karazempo Go Shinjutsu. I'm aware of its connection to Pesare and Cerio, but I know that Cerio remixed and created several things because of his diversity of experience. But like I said, What Nohelty and Bryant taught doesn't always look like what Cerio taught, but then maybe they came in at a point where Prof. Cerio was changing his mind about some things and/or evolving. Even for me, there's enough meat on my kenpo to add to my base of wing chun and catch wrestling, and savate. At the end of the day, it's all soup, and making stuff work is what's important.
Shihan Nohelty and Bryant were both under Fred Villari before splitting away. The forms you showed are all from the Villari system. #1,3,4, and 5 are rooted in Karazenpo/kajukenbo and # 6 was created by G.Pesare and #2 is a Nick Cerio creation. Thank you for sharing :-)
I'm happy to hear that! Yes, the link is in the description of this video. I also have a video of the blocking sets, it's more recent. I still have to get around to heian nidan, stature of the crane, the two man set, and honsuki, and maybe shushi no kon sho.
That's exactly what it is. Robert Nohelty and James Bryant were originally under Villari, and then left and returned to the source: Professor Cerio. I wish they had gone more into Nick Cerio's evolution since Villari was booted, but it is what it is. It was an excellent foundation for the next 20+ years (I'm approaching 30 years in training, across multiple styles).
I Trained in shaolin kempo for 6 years getting my 2nd brown. Usually all the combos are the same sometimes the number order changes but I knever understood why kempos were diffrent from school to school?
The same reason Kung Fu is different from school to school, or karate is different from school to school. People learn the system, they change it based on their own experiences, understanding and reason, and it becomes a new thing. That's how martial arts have always worked.
@@BlackSunBoxing I guess, but once you change something then it’s not technically the same system anymore… it’s your own system which works out good sometimes or not so good other times.
Sure. Yet karate is still called karate, regardless of which lineage or school. The Japanese tradition is to call a new lineage a "Ryu" or school of karate. Like matsubyashi-Ryu is still part of shorin-ryu, and both are still karate. The labels don't really matter, though. They're just a matter of history and record keeping. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to get good at first fighting.
From what I understand the katas and numbered combinations are the backbone of the Villari system. Many instructors were encouraged to create their own “kempos” from the katas and combinations to teach concepts and principles or based on a concept or principle. That is why the variation, I think. The “beginner” ones are often the same but then variation becomes more prevalent likely in answer to a student question, instructor personality, fighting style and experience.
I have learned and tested well over 100 karate or kung-fu forms (TKD, Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Shaolin, KunTao, and Kenpo) over the past 40 years ... I can say that I do not really like the "structure" of these forms. They appear to be and odd mix of Karate and Chinese Kenpo.
Thank you! We always loved having Master Nohelty up for seminars. He was at my Shodan test, even. I didn't know him personally, but he always impressed me.
No. My lineage comes through Nick Cerio, who thought of Ed Parker as an older brother in Kenpo, but was not his student. He's learned from George Pesare who came from Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Goshinjutsu school. By the time you get to my sensei, it was it's own thing separate from Karazenpo, but that's the lineage. I did go through brown belt in Ed Parkers American Kenpo, but that's a completely different system.
Thanks for posting. I have interesting memories of the times and what was trained. I was running schools with Villari's when the split happened with all the off shoots such as the Masters. I did know those people. I left the organization at the same time. I have videos of me doing those forms on my channel around 93/94, and again around 10 years ago with my first attempt to integrate traditional internal kung fu principles. Keep training and growing! Thanks for the memories.
Awesome!
It's alway interesting to see the many minor variations in these forms. Directional changes, added or deleted techniques, variations of foot maneuvers, etc. I trained under George for a short time and my first instructor was on George's kickboxing team, so some of mine are earlier versions. Nicely done.
Thank you!
@@BlackSunBoxing These are five of the twenty five empty hand forms in Raven Kenpo Ju-Jitsu
Awesome, you brought me back 20 years ago, i used to study at Masters sd centers in Montreal Canada. Awesome video bro 🙏
Happy to be useful!
@@BlackSunBoxing who was your sensei back then ? I recognised Master Noelthy on o e of your pics.
@@jcleclerc7482 good eye! I was under Sensei Kevin Crossan in Dover, NH. Masters Nohelty and Bryant facilitated as senior instructors for my black belt exam.
I am in Montreal and used to study under Danny Mason and before her Elizabeth Gilberg! Perhaps we have met :-)
I went to Sensei Masson dojo a couple of time 😊@@Shaolinkempotc
I only saw a minor mistake with an angle transition in 2 Kata, but besides that, I’d say the forms looked pretty good!! I also don’t actively train in Kempo anymore, but still like to practice my forms so I don’t forget them. This video will definitely help. Thanks, bro!
Keep it up!
Thanks!
For "dusting off" you old Kata you did a great job!!!
I still practice the basic movements from my old Katas, but I simply can't remember them fully.
Sucks getting old....LOL
Much Respect!
OSS!!
Thsnk you!
Three and Five were my favorites... All were well done, to be sure.
Thanks!
I'm a 5th degree in that same style. That was great. Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome!
I have that book still :-)
The forms are mostly the same, #4 had the most differences. 👍🏾
This is so strange to see. It is like a watered down version of all the forms. They look like they were homogenized, there are very few repeating patterns in the forms but you repeat a lot. Very interesting. Also a lot of the grappling pieces and level changes are missing. Also interesting. Where did you guys get them from ? A villari derivative ?
No, not villari. My lineage comes through George Pesare and Nick Cerio. My teacher learned from Robert Nohelty who trained directly under Cerio and Pesare. As for it being watered down: maybe. It's just what I learned. Nohelty and Bryant's "masters self defense" does seem to be more stripped down than Cerio's direct teachings. I'd love to see a more direct Nick Cerio or George Pesare iteration, unfortunately everyone seems to be dead.
And, if I may ask, what lineage do you come through?
@@BlackSunBoxing I may have come off a little more harsh than I intended, sorry. I started in a villari derivative and then moved to a cerio lineage. When I noticed some cerio schools were very kung fu-y, and some were very shotokan, and some very american kenpo, I did more digging and found that I was picking up pieces of cerio's teachings as he moved through his arts. I then went back to his start and landed almost accidentally in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. It is a much more sane version of kajukenbo, and the mother art of all the stuff you showed in this video. For example george pesare came to rhode island with *12* defensive movements, not the 150(or like 400? in some circles and in american kenpo, it is bananas) that shaolin kenpo schools can have. Those were directly related to karazenpo's philosophy of movements that are universal and not making the student do 12 variations of the same move in every direction 4 times like, say modern karate kata.
No offense taken. Yeah, I don't have any experience with Karazempo Go Shinjutsu. I'm aware of its connection to Pesare and Cerio, but I know that Cerio remixed and created several things because of his diversity of experience. But like I said, What Nohelty and Bryant taught doesn't always look like what Cerio taught, but then maybe they came in at a point where Prof. Cerio was changing his mind about some things and/or evolving. Even for me, there's enough meat on my kenpo to add to my base of wing chun and catch wrestling, and savate. At the end of the day, it's all soup, and making stuff work is what's important.
Shihan Nohelty and Bryant were both under Fred Villari before splitting away. The forms you showed are all from the Villari system. #1,3,4, and 5 are rooted in Karazenpo/kajukenbo and # 6 was created by G.Pesare and #2 is a Nick Cerio creation. Thank you for sharing :-)
Nice Job, Master Lorenze from Florida.
Thank you!
Thanks for putting all the katas, together. It’s helping me remember more quickly than I thought! Is there a video for the Pinans?
I'm happy to hear that! Yes, the link is in the description of this video. I also have a video of the blocking sets, it's more recent. I still have to get around to heian nidan, stature of the crane, the two man set, and honsuki, and maybe shushi no kon sho.
I like this art 100%
You do a great job well done 100%
Thank you!
Looks like a Villari - Cerio off shoot, not bad hang in there. . .oh btw started training 50+ years ago in Castro line and Kajukenbo ;)
That's exactly what it is. Robert Nohelty and James Bryant were originally under Villari, and then left and returned to the source: Professor Cerio. I wish they had gone more into Nick Cerio's evolution since Villari was booted, but it is what it is. It was an excellent foundation for the next 20+ years (I'm approaching 30 years in training, across multiple styles).
Sigh... I knew Bob Nohelty well.. A whole host of great guys now gone...Glad you got to know him....
I Trained in shaolin kempo for 6 years getting my 2nd brown. Usually all the combos are the same sometimes the number order changes but I knever understood why kempos were diffrent from school to school?
The same reason Kung Fu is different from school to school, or karate is different from school to school. People learn the system, they change it based on their own experiences, understanding and reason, and it becomes a new thing. That's how martial arts have always worked.
@@BlackSunBoxing I guess, but once you change something then it’s not technically the same system anymore… it’s your own system which works out good sometimes or not so good other times.
Sure. Yet karate is still called karate, regardless of which lineage or school. The Japanese tradition is to call a new lineage a "Ryu" or school of karate. Like matsubyashi-Ryu is still part of shorin-ryu, and both are still karate. The labels don't really matter, though. They're just a matter of history and record keeping. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to get good at first fighting.
From what I understand the katas and numbered combinations are the backbone of the Villari system. Many instructors were encouraged to create their own “kempos” from the katas and combinations to teach concepts and principles or based on a concept or principle. That is why the variation, I think. The “beginner” ones are often the same but then variation becomes more prevalent likely in answer to a student question, instructor personality, fighting style and experience.
Never mind my question about the pinan forms.
I have learned and tested well over 100 karate or kung-fu forms (TKD, Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Shaolin, KunTao, and Kenpo) over the past 40 years ... I can say that I do not really like the "structure" of these forms. They appear to be and odd mix of Karate and Chinese Kenpo.
That is exactly what they are.
I see my old instructors influence in your style. Bob Nohelty did you and your instructor well.
Thank you! We always loved having Master Nohelty up for seminars. He was at my Shodan test, even. I didn't know him personally, but he always impressed me.
Is this Ed Parker's style?
No. My lineage comes through Nick Cerio, who thought of Ed Parker as an older brother in Kenpo, but was not his student. He's learned from George Pesare who came from Sonny Gascon's Karazenpo Goshinjutsu school. By the time you get to my sensei, it was it's own thing separate from Karazenpo, but that's the lineage.
I did go through brown belt in Ed Parkers American Kenpo, but that's a completely different system.
Hansuki?
Planning on doing it. Just haven't filmed it yet. I'll do that, and stature of the crane, and the two man set. Maybe shushi no kon sho and dai too.
Hansuki, tai sing mun po pow,
Thousabd buddags, five dragons face four winds, wounded tigers, iron crane.
I am only nidan, so I didn't learn those.
cobra kai ?!
😢
Шаолинь - в Китае. Карате - в Японии. Кенпо - вообще все, что можно. Бред.