The Rally Car That Could've Been - Untapped Potential - Peugeot 307 WRC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.ย. 2023
- The Peugeot 307 was the most innovative car of the 2004 World Rally Championship, but, for the 307, the results never matched its potential.
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Minor critique. You should perhaps focus slightly on the audio in your videos, your voice was often not heard due to the music, and the sudden change in volume on occasion felt a little harsh, other than that a nicely informative and entertaining video, and as an added bonus your pronunciation of Finnish names was very good, coming from a Finn.
I agree. The video was superb for the most part. The only issue was audio.
Agree. Also commented this issue before.
I agree with this one. If the audio improves, he will be in a pretty high league in terms of quality.
edit: I didn't say the quality is lacking right now. Audio is literally the only caveat I had. There's a reason I got sucked in watching each of his videos I see in my recommendation list.
Gronhölm's "I am FED UP with this car" just sums up the community consensus over the 307CC WRC.
Yes he tried to be diplomatic at first, then justifiably turned into mass frustration.
Peugeot said to him after that to be quiet
i will remember what Marcus said forever 😁
After so many years and despite not even following WRC for over a decade anymore, I still can't forget that quote of Grönholm
"This car has a challenging time filling the shoes of 206 WRC" Gronholm said calmly
"you can tell corrado 3 gears is enough" best comment of the season
They should’ve kept the folding roof mechanism installed, just for shits and giggles
Could've used it as a giant air brake for if they really need to stop hard
A convertible car is severely penalized in rigidity. And boy do you need a rigid chassis in a rally car.
@@installshieldwizard3017 electric roof go brrrrrr
@@Billiamiscool ok this is not Taxi movie
I miss early 2000s wrc alot.
Not sure why you almost completely omitted the 2005 season. Gronholm took a Rally Finland victory for the second year running. Then in Rally GB, tragedy struck when Markko Martin's co-driver Michael Park was killed in a crash. At the next round in Japan, Marcus Gronholm managed to claim an emotional victory, which helped to bring the team's spirits back up. Sadly, that was the last WRC win for the 307 and for the Peugeot team.
The reason for missing 2005 was that 2004 was the 307's most infamous season, especially with Grönholm's stage end comments. I could cover every season in depth, but that would make the videos very long, which could mean somee people would avoid watching the video altogether. But it does mean I've left some room to make a second video on the 307 later on.
I like how the music is so loud you can’t hear the narration, just like 00s WRC TV.
I loved the 307. It was terrible but it looked so different and was really innovative, it’s a bit like the Nissan GT LM NISMO in that it was completely unconventional, and very good when it worked. But the unconventional design required tricky engineering that made it fall down.
I wonder how it would have fared had they just dropped the 206 running gear in it.
It's kind of funny, the music being louder than the narration wasn't quite the intention, I edited it wearing headphones, so the narration was loud and clear to me, but I noticed that on my phone's speaker the audio was pretty bad. But I also noticed it only happened when the background music was from 00s WRC, the rally of Greece, which used the WRC Generations opening theme had better audio, I wonder if there's something about the EQ or something that causes the music used by 00s WRC to do that
The next video will probably be on the GT-R LM Nismo btw
@@failedracers4452 It’s the WRC Promoter’s curse!
And awesome 👍
I wouldn't say it was like the GTR LM. That car was never going to work. Even if it had no reliability issues, the Toyota's and Porsche's would have still trounced it because with a car that powerful, anything more than a 50% front split of torque will just cause the car to be undrivable. It was completely nonsensical.
The 307 on the other hand, actually made a bit of sense. Not the 4 speed gearbox, that was stupid (especially considering that 1994 World Champion Didier Auriol had complained that the previous 206 was difficult to drive with *FIVE* gears, and he would have preferred a six speed). But the aerodynamic body shape and the ultra powerful engine. All other teams used a hatchback design (except Mitsubishi and Subaru, who used a boxy saloon shape), and like he said in the video the coupe design had a much better drag coefficient. This combined with the powerful engine and Marcus Gronholm at the wheel practically made it a formality that it would win 1000 lakes every single time, even with the stupid 4 speed.
If they hadn't had switched to Pirelli I'm pretty sure they would have won the 2005 Manufacturers World Championship. With Duval performing horribly, anyone with a decent enough car and two decent drivers (which Peugeot crucially had), would have had an open goal. However, the Pirelli tyres were not at the level of the Michelin's, which caused not only Peugeot to lose out but also Petter Solberg as well.
If they had stayed for one more year I'm pretty sure they would have won the manufacturers title, even if Markko Martin didn't want to come back for understandable reasons. Gronholm in the Ford got only within 1 point anyway, and Manfred Stohl's performances in a non-factory backed car beat one of the Kronos' for fourth in the standings. Like Stohl said it finished every single rally, and the pace it showed in 2004 proved that it was also every match for the Xsara and the Focus, so there is no reason to believe it wouldn't have been successful with Gronholm behind the wheel.
I always wondered why they do that. Sometimes the enigines are louder
The 307 and the Octavia were the complete extreme sides of the spectrum for a WRC car. The Octavia was able to survive anything thrown at it but was horrendously slow. The 307 was quick, but a random part threw a tantrum the moment it saw a single pebble on the dirt
Thanks, great video! I also always thought the 307 is underrated.
As well the idea behind the 4 speed gearbox is very well explained. When Marcus Grönholm crashed in the first corner of Rallye Deutschland, it was the debut of the 5-speed and - after Grönholm saying in Finland “Tell Corrado 3 is enough” - I remember Corrado Provera shouting: “Now we gave him a 5th gear and he dodesn’t use it.”
2:38: No, the first hardtop convertible in the WRC was the Fiat 124 Spider and then the Mercedes 500SL, though the 500SL did not get beyond testing with Walter Röhrl for 1981. Later Holger Bohne drove that car privately in San Remo.
But it was no doubt very interesting Peugeot came with this concept. It was something completely outside of the norm and therefore refreshing.
Sadly this concept was also part of its downfall. The electric roof meant the 307 had a fat and heavy rear end, making its handling tricky. Richard Burns planned to leave the team after first tests with the 307 and clearly at least Markko Märtin did not get on well with it. That said, it is also down to driving styles. Manfred Stohl for example is a driver who likes oversteering, and even though he was a private entry, I found it incredible that Stohl had no less than 4 podiums or even 9 top5 finishes in 2006. His team mate Henning Solberg also managed 4 top5 finishes despite not starting all rounds.
This clearly proves the car was better than people kept believing.
Good video and a good analysis, but you failed to mention that in 2003, Peugeot did a few km with the 307 in tests and Gronohlm complained about the reliability and toughness that the car demonstrated over its predecessor.
In November 2003, Gronohlm was in the North of Portugal preparing the 307 for the gravel rallies and in those 4 days, I remember that the car always had problems, with the gearboxes, and on one of those days it broke, right at in front of me, 3km from the support truck.
Today this test car is/was owned by a Cypriot.
In the 2004 and 2005 WRC seasons, Marlboro Peugeot Total had a combined of 21 DNF (one of the drivers DNF).
From the first tests, the engineers knew that this car was doomed, because the driving style of the factory team drivers did not match the car's handling characteristics.
Good call, MrBerna, even Gilles Panizzi in his interview to DirtFish mentioned that him and Marcus were not really fond of where the development went with 307 and when Gilles tried to explain his worries to Corrado Provera, but Corrado took them like he was insulting him and Peugeot, which caused a rift and Gilles and his brother making a decision to leave Peugeot at the end of 2003 season.
The video neatly summarizes the French rally efforts... by the amount of effort that has gone into the sound mixing of the video. Well done!
The fact that they intended the gearbox to make them quicker with less gear changes, and the outcome was the complete opposite is the summary of French car manufacturing 😂😂😂
I love my Peugeots but the 07 years were dire. 207, 307 etc just awful.
Constructive criticism: put the car's make and model into the title. Helps when people search for that car on TH-cam and helps when scrooling throgh your videos.
Great video mate and great choice of music. Love those phonk-bits during your little montages, especially those in your Skoda - videos.
Good idea!
The 307 would’ve won if it was powered by N Cereal
I'm willing to bet this car is the reason why Richard Burns was willing to leave Peugeot after 2003 for Subaru.
It was, After testing the car for the forst time in 2003 Burns called his manager to say get me out of here for 2004.
Unfortunately the thing the 307 WRC is most famous for happened in 2005, when it was involved in the first fatal WRC-crash in over 10 years. The car hit a tree in Wales so unluckily that the co-driver died despite the safety-cell.
The only one cabriolet coupe car ever competed at wrc. Next year (2005) Peugeot finished 2nd in championship with 2 wins in Japan and Finland (in total 3 wins). Peugeot Racing wanted to be the first who will win the championship ever with a cabriolet chassis but unfortunately had as an opponent that years the greatest era of citroen cars driven by the greatest ever rally driver Sebastien Loeb. Overall many fights between Loeb & Gronholm .
This was one of the best cars to see at the 2005 Guanajuato Rally! I'm really happy to have been there.
Great video and commentary, regardless of volume balancing issues
To this day I still wonder where on the world Peugeot thought 4 gears were enough, they somehow forgot rallying is not drag racing, but a motorsport with the most variety of corners and situations. Was the car to run even a 5 speed as later WRC cars it would've been a way better match. And even then... 6 speed gearboxes have proven themselves to be the superior choice for the WRC. Kinda weird seeing Rally1 cars now going back to a 5 speed.
Wow the quality you managed to achieve in 5 months is unbelievable go on like that!
Choosing the pirelli tyres was the worst decision they could ever make. Even subaru suffered punctures all over 2006
I don’t think choosing there tyres over Michelin is ever a good idea
Also surely a French car should have Michelin tyres be default.
Never understood why they had to change from the 206 to the 307 while the former was still being sold and very popular.
Marketing purposes
The very few hard points shared with the road car forced them, why 307… why not? If they can make a girly sissy car more masculine they might sell more.
Similar thing happened to the Lancia Stratos they replaced focus on the Fiat 131.
Just discovered your channel, really amazing videos and so shocked you only have 300 subscribers. I always found the Peugeot 307 to be a very unusual WRC car, just of how radical the design philosophy changed compared to the 206. Keep doing your great work
Throughout the history of motorsports, switching to a Pirelli tire has always been a terrible idea.
There's a 22min video on TH-cam compiling 307 WRC problems, and it's only the 2004 season
Big fan of the use of the old-school TV music
Thank you for this video. I remember hearing about the 'NASCAR' gearbox in pre-season news but lost track of the WRC at the time, so did not know all about this farce.
Exactly the type of video I was looking for, good stuff
Brilliant video! I thought it was the coolest thing ever that we had a 307 and it was also a rally car when I was small! A shame it was plagued with issues, kind of what it's like to own in its old age too (the road car)! I know its been said before and I'm sorry but you've got to sort out the sound. It is genuinely too jarring, especially with headphones. Other than that with this video quality you deserve more like 200k subs! Keep it up!
Now THIS is maximum sex appeal!
Where's the footage where Marcus is lost in translation explaining how a steel rod pierced through the floor and jabbed up Timo's arse ! 😂
Straight up in the arse of Timo!
The most beautyful WRC ever.
Not even close
Waiting for Sunny GTI-R and Calibra Group A videos!
3:15 hasn’t Reddit been trying to find that song for ages thinking it was lost media??
I don't understand why it was randomly edited into the video.
🤔🤔 I wanna know more about this story
@@failedracers4452 everyone has been trying to find this song it is probably the most famous lost song on the internet but the snippet you used is the exact same as the other known snippets so i think you just added it in maybe you thought it was a cool sound or youre trolling
@@failedracers4452hello sir, did u add this song? where did you find this snippet? thank you have a good day
@@aremelboss2614 I guess copyright reasons.
Got that WRCG music hell yeah. Got that stuck in my head now lol
holy shit the man standing on the edge of the cliff at 20:10 is utterly terrifying
Nice editing dude I see you use clip champ (I think)
Okay, I'm not a "lost media" person but I saw a video on that song at 3:15. With how the footage you used from the promo is the exact length of the known clip of the song, are you doing a little bit here, a little goof?
Amazing vid, great video edit, only problem i'll say is audio. Next time try normalizing the audio for the music at least. This vid was really good and the footage was also on point. Kudos your technical knowledge, can i ask for your background if you don't mind (are you an engineer)?.
Ps. I don't know if you know but the car run only and just only 1 event with the gearbox it supposed to use (a PDK unit for instant gear changes), the event in question was TOUR DE CORSE 2005.. the car RETIRE from GEARBOX FAILURE😅.
Yeah, my next video will have better audio because I've got a new mic, I'm not an engineer I just find this stuff interesting
Your problem is not just the MIC but audio normalization. Basically if you record audio at different time and smash them all together our voices end up having different volume. You use normalization to make all the audio the same, even if you use a potato mic will still make for a great improvement. Do it for the music and for your voice. Is not very difficult or time consuming.
Congrats again for this vid one of the veey best regarding this car i've ever seen
That's true, but the mic is partially the issue because it doesn't have the sound level right, it's at 200% and the music at 10%, but the mic audio output is for some reason really quiet
Thanks for the feedback btw :)
Are you just trolling with the audio on the promotion clip isn’t that some lost media song that’s been popular recently?
Just wondering, where did you get this video from?
The song at 3:15 was the song everyone on lost media community is looking for.
From youtube, recently uploaded, then more recently removed. Most likely explanation is that I've accidentally included a clip from someone's hoax "LOST SONG FOUND" video without realising.
@@failedracers4452 ohh
@@failedracers4452Well, that makes sense.
7:07 in the bottom left hand corner "if you know what this song is you're based af😂😂
Turns out a 4 speed gearbox made no sense. The longer gears couldn't match the RPM properly
Something about french cars being unreliable... sounds about right. Good video.
Man i love your videos but you have some major audio mixing problems to sort out
Hey man, awesome video, but the speech volume is too low and music too loud, do look out for that when you are editing :)
So they removed 2 gears and put longer gears but it didn't have top speed?
Why didn't they just put 6 long gears?
From what I remember in the games, the car was just the slowest of the group, it felt too wide, too numb and while it was supposed to be powerful, it felt slow. Unlike basically all the other cars.
And that's just a game, the difference would be even bigger in real life especially considering cars couldn't break down in the game.
The only good thing about this car is how good it looked. Made want to use it even if I could never get to my time records wity the Skoda.
Never understood why they didnt drop the citroens running gear into it. They own citroen after all.
Never understood why they allowed two teams to compete. Waste of effort.
Whats the song at 3:20?
Do you know the name of the song that comes out at minute 3:15, if you know please tell us the name
No idea. It's a bit of a weird one. I was looking for this promo video, I found one with a Spanish description on youtube uploaded recently with a different song to usual, and it was that one. I looked for it again but when I search "Peugeot 307 Promo" I just get the normal video with the audio I remember. I'm guessing they uploaded either a different version of the promo video and then deleted it, or they edited the song over it before deleting it. Maybe as some sort of joke, maybe they like the song, idk, but I have both versions of the promo video now, but the song is a weird one.
@@failedracers4452 this is the most known and popular lostwave (unknown songs) today in 2024
@@failedracers4452sorry, do you have the source for the original video you found with the song?
Unfortunately I don't. It wasn't up for long. I've looked more into this after some other comments. I'm thinking that maybe the uploader of the 307 promo video may have been just putting this on for fun. The version with the odd song was uploaded recently, and now I can't find it, probably taken down. I'm guessing someone has uploaded it with the lost media as a joke, I've downloaded that clip, and then put it on the video.
The full 307 promo video featured a different song, I think some trolling or something has happened here and I've accidentally put out a false lead, idk.
Here's the promo with the normal music.
th-cam.com/video/9sjtmU3--iA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=hHShXzMNysesWref
I saw the original 2004 season review as you shown back when AXN got the rights, and still shocked how did Rally Cyprus turned out.
Wonder what was inside designer's head-Sega Rally was years ago and 4-speed was literally history, even JWRC cars were on 6-speeds.
So the fastest shitbox ever built
Basically, yeah
I was dubious of the 4 speed gearbox. More gears give you more options.
Mk1 Focus ❤
Nice video but there were missing points such as the wins in Finland 2005 and Japan same year, after the sad loss of Michael.
And also some funny points such as the houmurus moments such as "Upp in the..."
great video, but I miss the moment in Turkey 2004 when a lose arm passes throught the bottom of the car right through the "bottom" of Rautiainen and Marcus interwiev at the end of stage
Yes, that was a true classic moment, I'll have to find a way to include it in a later video maybe.
6:40 WRC Generations Theme Song, easy ;)
Nice!
The best menu music in the entire WRC series But for me, the best menu music is still in Colin McRae Rally 2.0, the GOAT
The Peugeot 307 WRC is the second best-looking racing car in red just after the Ferrari in my opinion.
Vey interesting, but sound levels are way wrong
"Random red circle" 😂
Great video, but the music drowns out your narration. Spent half the video not understanding what you were saying
Yeah, I'd recommend headphones for this video, the new one coming today will hopefully have much better sound quality :)
Sexy car shit reliability that sums up the 307
You make good content but work on audio, hard to hear you sometimes
The true sex car
If I recall right one year at mote Carlo rally this car was so wide and long that there was genuine fears if it could do some of the stages.
Potent-kar
Make more videos. They are great. Just need a little work on sound
Fewer gears means more changes because the power band is smaller for each gear, so to accelerate off a 3rd gear coner in a 6spd box, probably needs first in the 4spd box. Novel theory but short sighted
I never understood the decision to swap 206 for 307... and coupe cabrio from all of things. 206 was "battle proven" championship winning car, so they could just transfer 206 drivetrain into new chassis, change some details, repack components bit differently... but no, thay had to be revolutionary.
All that makes Citroën's achivement even more impressive, because they built Xsara, C4 and DS3. Three different championship winning cars, one after another.
still i'd want to have a peugeot 206cc or 307cc as a project car someday
the 307 WRC walked so the C4 WRC could run
You could have found the origin of the lost song without even knowing it
3:15 song?
Another car with issues was the Lancer WRC04. So many transmission problems. 2005 was better. I liked that car and it was better than the 2002 wrc version but not enough to keep Mitsubishi in the sport.
Decent video but in future you need to make the music quieter. In a lot of portions I could hardly hear your voice
What a load of nonsense from the rally development team. they should have released it with at least a 5speed gearbox.
I remember in the late 90's 206 also had 4 speed because the 5 speed they devolped didnt had the strenght for the torque. Panizzi was allways complaning he was slower on tarmac because of it in his broken english. Afaik when he got the 5 speed he was unbeatable on the tarmac until xsaras arrived.
Song name 06:46?
0:33
This is too funny
It was a weird looking thing, that 307.
song at 11:30?
It doesn't have a name unfortunately. It's an official WRC broadcast song from 2006
th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxdLa6RK44mNk6GXqwjLjsAGQMNby0zsT7?si=IHt1tJO5ybEDZ59A
In future videos, turn down the volume of background music and turn up the volume of your voice.
holy shit everyone knows that
What time
That thing had only 4 gears😂
I can't understand what are saying due to music
you need better audio.
a 307 hatchback would have been a better choice for rally
If you increase downforce you automatically increase drag...which renders the lower drag bodywork POINTLESS.
Fast and beautiful car, but incredibly unreliable, reminds me of the 2005 mclaren in f1
Another sad story of a great rally driver and the shitty car, that just doesn't work at all.....
Yup Collin, I'm looking at you [*]
I prefer the 206
Next time take the music out we can barely hear a thing you say
i wince how he pronounces Markus Grönholm.
Finnish pronunciation
@@failedracers4452 I am finnish, but ive never heard anyone pronounce it like that.
Ah interesting, there's another comment from a finn praising my pronunciation of Finnish names haha. Maybe you're right, maybe they're right, idk lol
@@failedracers4452 Lol maybe. Sounds like youre kinda pronouncing it like a swedish name. It kinda is, but its a finnish dude. who knows, maybe im wrong.
@kanggoo57 I heard that the Finnish spelling and pronunciation was originally based on Swedish and German because Finland was latish to adopt the Latin Alphabet, and I speak German, so I kinda pronounced it how I'd read it as a German word.
haha.. racing
While interesting story your audio mixing is awful
That car never had potential
Everyone knows it??
It's pretty well known because Marcus Grönholm drove it, the car definitely had its fair share of famous moments, one very famous bit that wasn't in this vid is when the metal rod went "up in the ass of Timo" according to Marcus Gronholm
@@failedracers4452 I was talking about the song used in the 307 promo vid…. It’s a “ lost media” thing that’s going on on Reddit 🤣
Worst rally car ever made
If I recall right one year at mote Carlo rally this car was so wide and long that there was genuine fears if it could do some of the stages.
I'm not sure that's the case. They drive buses down those roads. They must be madmen there to do it, but I doubt the 307 would have turning circle or size limitations that can't be solved with the handbrake.