The Correct Answer on Disc Brakes vs Rim Brakes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- In which I try for the 1000th time to make a nuanced argument on the internet. Wish me luck.
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Having ridden rim brakes for longer than most of these guys have been alive, my only comment is unless they wanted to throw money at their local shop, no one should sell a bike they enjoy just to get disc brakes.
I have both, but I still prefer the simplicity of rim brakes and their ease of maintenance. And they stop fine for me. The main advantage I see with discs is the ability to run wider tires and not wear down the rim itself during braking. Then again the rear wheel on my commuter bike (rim brakes) is about 20 years old and still going strong.
Same. Direct mount rim brakes are my favorite for >90% of the riding I do (followed by dual pivot). In mud, gravel and sand, I do really appreciate the disc brakes.
The ability to use wider tires is a pretty big thing. Also no more overheating the rim from hard braking. The maintenance can be a bit of a hassle though.
Yeah, I’ve been cycling in different conditions for many miles, and have never burnt through a rim.
@@denverspin Burning thru the rim isn't the issue. But it is possible to heat the rim to such level to blow out a tube. But the biggest advantage is the ability to use wider tires that are not only safer, more comfortable, and faster. A triple win.
Here's one. Rim brakes for me, tubular tires. After 9 years on my favorite climbing wheels, 22m Reynolds that I got on eBay, used, for $300, I finally wore the rear braking track. I normally do about 6000mi a year, and a LOT of mountain passes. I'm not a climber at 6' and between 165-170lbs but it's my thing, big climbs in the western US. Descending Old Man Pass (Wa. St.) only 2000' vert with some steep and 15mph switches I noticed my rear was buzzing under hard braking. It was down to fabric. Ok, went home and put that rim aside, but I really liked it.
cut to the chase, I decided to fix it and with my carbon experience I applied WEST epoxy/barrier coat to the brake track. A bit tricky but I've been back on that wheel now for a few months and it's still good as new. Cool stop pads and 8000 Ultegra calipers.
My reason to ride tubbies is I really really don't want to have a blowout with clinchers on most of the descents at 40 50mph and rather significant drops off the sides of fast hard corners.
Long, sorry. I also almost always go to the climbs with my bike inside a car, front wheel off, derailleur side up if it's a hatch. Not a good thing for disc.
The shift to disc brakes mostly revolved around the rim-brake carbon wheel issue. Carbon surfaces aren't ideal for braking, and cyclists can debate rim vs. disc ad nauseam, but carbon wheels are universally craved.
Changing to discs eliminated the problem of rim overheating while breaking, which caused mounting liability/warranty issues, and helped relax the manufacturing and material costs with no decrease to the final price.
Rim brakes on machined/ceramic track alloy work wonderfully, but it's not what the mainstream market wants.
Thank you for the comment - and I'd like to add poor wet weather performance for carbon rims. I guess that's why Mavic Cosmic wheels hold their value.
I agree, I don't have carbon wheels, I don't ride in the rain, rim brakes are far superior for my lifestyle. I have first gen Sram eTap and I hope it never dies because nobody is offering electronic shifting for rim brakes going forward.
“Carbon surfaces aren’t ideal for braking” 😮 wow! We had better tell all the F 1 teams to go back to steel or ceramic brakes to improve their lap times, or....... maybe.......
mainstream bike companies sellers want disk!!! not mainstream bike BUYERS😂😂😂😂😂!! you ever try to balance hydraulic disk brakes??? good luck waste a day doing that!!
carbon wheels are craved ONLY at the same price point as spokes🤔
My rim brakes will send me over the bars on a steep descent, so I'm not sure that more braking power is going to do much for me. They are also lighter, require less maintenance and don't squeal much.
Same experience here. If I'm hard on my front rim, the back wheel lifts up so easy in a 5% descent. Don't known what the fuss is about. No to bleed brakes, so easy to maintain.
that's the point. Disc brakes allow more slowing of the wheel before complete lock up. Rim brakes apply pressure to a certain point and then just grab.
No, they don't@@jaybobd
@@MM-kt5dv It's well established that they do. Disc brakes outperform rim brakes in virtually every stopping situation.
"Disc brakes provide a greater mechanical advantage than rim brakes. They use leverage to multiply the force that you put into the lever. In other words, they’re more efficient. This allows the calipers to apply more force to the braking surface which helps to slow the bike down faster. Disc brakes also have a larger surface area for the brake pad to grip on to. This increases friction, allowing you to slow you down faster. Disc brakes are more precise and are easier to modulate-You can feather the brakes and just shed a bit of speed or you can brake hard and slow down fast. This allows you to stop faster without worrying about accidentally locking up your wheels."
I was replying to "Rim brakes apply pressure to a certain point and then just grab". They don't "just grab", sorry. That's never happened to me on any rim brake bike. Ever.
Nobody's arguing that disc brakes have more power than rim. brakes, it's a matter of application. Rim brakes have more than enough stopping power on a road bike in dry conditions. Disc brakes are better on commuter bikes, etc.@@jaybobd
NEXT TOPIC: handlebar bags on $10,000 aero bikes
Psssst....(whispers) rim brakes are giant disc brakes.
They are not. Hence, the different words we use to describe them.
😳😳😳correct!!! more braking torque!!!❤❤❤...
@@JohnDough-yr2zt They are if you have a disc wheel!
Psssst, rims have tubes on them that aren't going to survive 200 degrees C.
@@cebruthius nothing is getting 200C!!!😂😀😅, barely 100C at the hottest point,the entire wheel will barely +10C over climate , its a bicycle not an F1, or a 747!! 😺😺😹
Man…no one’s mentioning the unicorn in the room…the jabs at corporate plunder and pillaging at the close. GANGSTA!!! Thanks Phil.
There should always be a question of needs, not just mindless following of trends. I answered mine - rim on road bike, disc on gravel. Road bike for dry weather, gravel for wet conditions. That's what works for me.
Rim brakes:- lighter, cheaper, easier to work on and travel with and stop not quite as fast as disc. Sticking to rim if I can 😊
Agree with this...but I'm moving more and more to disc. When I travel and hire a bike (with discs), I always come away wanting disc brakes on my own bike.
Yup Rim for road Disc for Dirt
Disc is best for steep descents in tropical areas
Still on drum brakes in your car, or do you appreciate the better & more reliable stopping power of discs?
@@br5380apples to oranges
Until I have to, I will continue to ride my rim brake. The price of a new bicycle is crazy and I work in the industry.
100%
Well put.
I made up my own mind years ago.
I don't race. I ride down steep hills. And I ride in the rain.
So discs are the best solution for me.
I'll add one: if you're a heavy rider they are beneficial. I'm over 200 lbs and for someone my size I feel like the disc brakes make a difference. Hills, rain or heavy rider: go disc. If it's flat, dry and the rider is lightweight, rim brakes might be the better solution.
@@BennyOceanrim brakes are never the better solution. They are inferior in every way.
I ride up steep hills in the rain, so rim brakes are the best solution for me 🤠
@@utube7930 Me too. I just don't need the brakes much on the way up.
Going down is a different story. Then I'll take all the stopping power I can get!
@@utube7930 If you need brakes riding up hill, you must be one fast MFer
i love my cantis for commuting/touring.
easy to maintain, cheap, allow me to run comfy tires, stop reliably rain or shine. love 'em.
Rim for road, disc for gravel and mtb. After 5 years of maintaining disc and ensuring no disc rub, rim brakes are SO much easier. Especially if travel has me removing the front wheel.
I've stuck with rim brakes, alloy wheels and frame. Affordable, durable and easy to maintain. Discs make sense with wider tyres off-road but I still like 25mm tyres on my road bike. Being able to get the wheels off and on quickly and easily for cleaning or transport is a big plus.
What alloy wheels do you recommend? Thanks
@@DanielaAngulo I got several pairs of Fulcrum Racing 900 's on clearance sale. Strong, stay true, easy to change bearings on and easy to regrease freehub pawls.
As an average level mtb rider, i find the difference negligible.
Besides the superior performance, the two huge advantages for disks (especially hydraulic) that sold me are 1) As a gravel rider often riding through mud, there are no pads to catch the muck and gum up, and 2) If your wheel goes out of true it’s not a big deal at all, unlike with rim brakes.
Another thing I like about disc brakes is being able to use my nice wheels all the time, on my rim brake bike I only used carbon wheels for racing to make them last longer, which kind of negated any day to day weight saving
The rim brake bike is still going to be lighter with alloy wheels 😂
@@The2808erik not with the alloy wheels I was using haha
8 years into my carbon rim brake wheels, still going strong. I race them and they have had about 75 days of French Alpe riding in them and where I live there are very steep descents, access of 25%
I live and ride in the french alpes. my rim brake carbon wheels have over 17000km and still plenty of life in them...
@@liamcook6950 and @darekm.7769 Let me guess, do you weigh less than 160 pounds? Heavier riders wear out brakes faster.
Oh, cares! They both work well. Ride what’s best for you.
Pretty much the same. For my racier, aero, dry-weather bike the rim brakes work just fine (also have direct-mount brakes so that helps as well over traditional calipers). But for my gravel/commute/adventure bike, discs make way more sense. I used to have to be meticulous in cleaning off the brake tracks nearly every day on previous commuter bikes during the winter because the road gunk would cause the brakes to grind them down so quickly. Since they're higher up from the road, disc rotors take a lot longer to get as dirty and are way cheaper/easier to replace than rims when needed.
For commuter only roller brake the best.
I got a frame from the last run of rim brake Bianchi Oltre XR4's a couple of years ago. This was a budget/environmental impact choice because I got a good deal on the frame and I would be able to reuse all of my Dura-Ace 9150 groupset, carbon rims included, and did not require buying all of that again in order to get the bike that I wanted at a lower price point. Also, as I was living where it never rained and they'd just opened the world's longest continuous closed cycle track, the benefits of disc could wait for another year. While I could get a new disc bike if I wanted one, I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to pick up this year's Factor O2 in another five or six years for a good bit less as a second hand bike.
as an amateur cat 3 level racer who mainly does criterium and cylcross, I have a mixed feeling. i got a relatively cheap specialized allez 6 or 7 years ago that had 9 speed shimano with rim brakes. ive upgraded that to 11 speed 105 now but im still able to race just fine on my rim brake setup in criteriums and cant justify going out and spending thousands on a new bike at the moment. for cyclocross on the other hand, i race on a specialized crux with canty brakes... and this is where i wish i had spent a little more money and found a second hand bike with discs brakes instead. any time it gets wet (which is typical CX conditions) i basically dont have brakes anymore... and could definitely see them as an advantage to be had in this discipline. bottom line is it 100% depends on the terrain and conditions that you ride in, and most bikes (rim or disc) are far more capable than the average riders ability level anyway.
Next question for Phil: How do so many pros still drop their chains during races? With pro mechanics, electronic shifting, and (theoretically) skilled riders, why is this still a thing?
Think of how carefully you go from big to small to avoid a drop. I imagine that care is not always there in a racing environment.
Well pros still ride sram so...
@@Foster_BYes, and the win all 3 Grand Tours
@@czeckson74 yes, and I’m sure Roglic dropping his chain on the final giro tt helped him win
@@thehandleiwantedwasntavailable Yeah, as a racer who was putting out not shabby watts, shifting under duress, riding ultegra, the stuff just always works because my job is as a mechanic. Something is silly in the team garages some days, lmao
There is no problem with my rim brakes that I can’t diagnose and fix in under a minute. Disk brakes are fine until something goes wrong. Then I hope you have deep pockets or saintly patience.
Exactly my take.
1000% disc brakes are horrific when the pads refuse to retract
Its the tire and not locking it what stops you. You can easly lock the wheel with both brakes. I like rim more. People who tell me they can modulate braking power better on 10 cm disc instead of 90 cm rim can suck my ...
@@2011hwalker Look at the simple construction of the disc calipers and you know why they don´t always retract. Rgr
I just transitioned to Disc and so far I like it. Rode in the rain without needing to worry about not stopping like I would with calipers lol, although they did make noise in the rain. I kind of miss my skewers as the wheel changes are indeed slower, for a pro, which I am not. Definitely heavier but less fuss for me. I’m happy.
HAHA
When I'm riding in the rain I don't worry about stopping either because I'm pedaling my ass off to get home and out of the rain. 🤪
@@Thezuule1You'll worry about stopping when some idiot suddenly reverses out of a driveway in front of you or when someone coming out of a side street fails to stop and check traffic.
Why would anyone want to ride in the rain? 😭It's horrible and cold..
If you ride a lot, it's kinda annoying to have discs. They *will* warp, and then you have to mess with them to have them stop rubbing. Then when you take off your wheel to swap tires....somehow it rubs again....
Thanks Phil, always incisive. Disc breaks are great...until something goes wrong with them! I have both disc and rim on my bikes and understand the pros/cons of both type but I can service my rim breaks quickly, easily and cheaply unlike discs which can be a royal effin pain in the arse at times!
What makes them a pain? Been riding disc brakes mtbing and bikepacking for 7 years… never a pain.
sounds like you just need to learn how to look after & service disc brakes, a bit like you did with rim brakes...
@@br5380 ooh meow!
@@Potz4pizza loss of pressure in system, rubbing pads, bent rotors and the process of bleeding can be a faff.
@@aminostruth3494those are very rare issues that you should have to deal with. Also, none of them close to ruining your rims with those garbage rim brakes. Not to mention they have pathetic stopping power. Yawn..
Down side on disc brakes = they are ALWAYS rubbing. Horrible to align.
Disc brake or rim brake? - Use what makes you happy. END OF CONVERSATION 😎
Use what your bike came with. And if you are buying a new bike. Buy the disc brake model. Mine is used. It has suck ass rim brakes. Oh well
If you ride in a group ride what they do. Beyond that whatever works. But, discs are simply better, this is not a debate.
@@BufordDuckworthrim brakes will always be available 😊 women’s pro teams use them. Eventually they’ll come around again as other manufacturers will pick up the market at the end not everyone wants or can afford a $20k bike for the weekend 😂 cheers from Oz🇦🇺
That’s the problem.. there’s no choice anymore. All the manufactures have moved pretty much to exclusively disc. The only way you can ride a new rim bike is buying second hand (always a bit sketchy) or emptying your wallet and an going with an Italian brand.
rim for me - easier to maintain, good weather only rider, I am very light (70kg) and I like a light bike, I do not descent very fast.
I respectfully disagree that disc brakes are best for most people. If you're a heavier rider or need to rail descents in the rain, then disc brakes might be for you. For everyone else, rim brakes are best for road cycling.
When disc brakes function correctly, they are the best at stopping. Across all other criteria, rim brakes are better: they're more reliable, less expensive, easier to service (my 11 year-old Dura Ace brakes have never been serviced aside from changing the pads every 6-12 months), lighter, and standardized.
I have the 11 speed Ultegra disc groupset on my gravel bike, and I've had to replace both both shifters and both calipers in the last 2 years. Moreover, one of the brakes has completely lost power TWICE! The service is also expensive and more involved than the average user can manage on their own. These are major flaws that the bike industry is asking us all to overlook.
We shouldn't even be debating whether rim is better than disc - it's not even the point. Both are braking systems which function perfectly well. The real benefit of disc brakes isn't even actually to do with braking, it's purely about the wheels. Disc systems have allowed for wider rims, more aero benefits, proper tubeless setup, lower tyre pressures and better comfort and rolling resistance. If I could get all of that, with rim brakes, I'd ride rim brakes.
Rim is a pretty simple technology, so it has that going for it, but it is clear that if your goal is to stop fast, disc is better.
Was riding two bikes for a period; one disc, one rim. I found braking performance pretty marginally different, even in wet conditions. However, I love the modulation of hydraulic braking - which is what my disc brakes have. That alone is why I now ride hydraulic disc on both bikes.
Yes, it's a nice feeling just pulling the lever slightly and feeling your bike is breaking. It gives you a confidence you cannot get from the rim brakes.
Big thing on the gravel side that's starting to trickle into road is the bigger tires discs let you run
Coming from motorcycle background I can say that there can be " too much brakes" situation for given bike. V- brakes are often too much for most bicycle users and disc brakes ( even cheaper ones) are overkill.
I love disc brakes...on my mountain and gravel bikes. I still feel that on my road bike, its overkill. Sure, it’s great in the rain going down a mountain, but that’s about it. Disc brake bikes are heavier and there always seems to be some sort of issue with the discs. Like slight rubbing, not working correctly, etc. And the ability to adjust on the fly like rim brakes is now gone.
I also think the first few years when the pros had discs that was the reason for the increase in pack crashes. Disc brakes are grabbier, thus causing wheel overlaps in the pack. I have not seen an actual study on this phenomenon, but I am willing to bet it was an issue.
Appreciate the added points to the conversation. Re: Bike companies forcing you to buy new product, this is not a minor point. Pricepoint of quality bikes today pushes cycling into a niche market and out of the realm of the masses. Spending as much on a bike as a used car, is just ridiculous and doesn't track with the actual gains from the tech.
I come from a rather different perspective here. I am a commuter, and this winter I'm commuting mostly on a single speed utility bike with a coaster brake. Essentially zero maintenance, and like a disc brake it is not bothered by weather. Plus my handlebars are unencumbered by brake levers or shifters. Of course I live in a very flat place (Winnipeg, MB); if I lived in Vancouver or San Francisco a coaster brake might not be enough (and a single speed definitely would not be).
Check local laws. Most jurisdictions require a brake on each wheel. Even if the law doesn't demand it, the front brake does 60+% of the braking so riding without one is massively increasing your stopping distance. Also, redundancy -- in the unlikely event that your coaster brake fails, you ain't stoppin'. In the much more likely event that your rear tyre punctures, the steel rim gives very little braking action against the road.
I'll give you a great example of marketing. I like in the north of England where we have huge amounts of rain and very steep hills. About 15 years ago, when disc brakes were already well established on MTBs, I was hassling manufacturers as to why they weren't fitting disc mounts to touring bike frames & forks and also why there weren't any hydraulic drop bar brakes. The response I got from UK manufacturers was "there's no demand for disc brakes on dropped bar bikes". I got this reply several times from different manufacturers. Now, you are looked at crazy for NOT having disc brakes. So obviously that demand definitely WAS there. And back then I was talking about bikes used in wet dirty conditions, not roads bikes used on smooth dry roads. So the industry decides what you are supposed to ride, not the customers.
Why we started using disk cx frames as road frames a decade ago. So we could have disks on the road.
Your argument doesn't make sense. High demand today does not prove that demand was high 15 years ago.
I have both rim/disc on multiple bikes. I like them both and am thankful for options. That said, my fast lightweight racing road bike has rim brakes and they are awesome. I also run 23 tires on it. So old school. I wouldn't change a thing on that bike.
So am i - disc brakes on the CX Bike and rim brakes on the light race bike🤙
Me too. 😅Although I'm not such a flat-earther - I've got 25's on my lightweight bike
I've had two recent instances of e-bike riders pulling in front of me, and I was glad I had discs. With the last one, an elderly lady realized what she'd done, lost balance, and went over in some bushes. She apologized after I helped her up.
No one ever talks about the fact that disc brake bikes mean your wheelsets can last a lifetime. I was lucky enough to pick up a pair of Campag Bora Ultra WTOs for free from my old job in the industry. I could never afford to replace them, and knowing that there's no brake track to wear out and thin down means it's a wheelset that'll last decades. Discs are awesome for that.
While technically true, the argument doesn't really hold long term in terms of price spent on disc pads and rotors. Have you seen current prices? Pads can run $40-60 and rotors can be $60-120, and that's just one side! Full rehaul can easily cost $300 for not even the top level gear. By the way, have you ever actually worn through rim brake surface? Im still using the original wheels on my 1996 Trek 5200 OCLV. Top shelf Swissstop rim pads are $70 and can last 5k-10k kms. I didn't even mention price of brake fluid or shop time if you can't do it yourself. Just need a 5mm allan key and 5 mins to swap rim pads. So yeah, wheels "can" last a lifetime but you'll be paying an arm and a leg for it long term
@@96golfcl Rims can last easily 50.000KM or more.
@@Gianniz27that’s 5 years for me. 18 months for one of my friends though.
You said this until said wheelset's spokes decide to explode after a hard braking, causing the whole wheel to become untrue and unsafe to ride
@@96golfcl"By the way, have you ever actually worn through rim brake surface?"
Yes, multiple times. The roads around here seem to be perpetually damp and covered in fine sand, so I was wearing out rim-brake wheels in about three years / 20000km.
Cane Creek EE Rim Brakes with Jagwire elite aluminum housing (compressionless) = heaven
I think top end disc brake bikes have finally caught up with rim. But the lower priced ones are clunky compared with what you get with Rim in previous years.
Rim brakes give me more than enough brakes, but the added clearance for wider tires on modern disc brake road bikes is a game changer.
Currently have both…I like the disc for the larger tire volume and ability to have lightweight aero wheels, but the rim brakes sure were nice for ease of maintenance.
I still have rim, and they are fine for the riding that I do. I do ride down big hills but I'm not pushing my bike to the limits like some. I don't have anything against disc breaks, I just haven't needed to replace my bike yet. When I do, it'll have disc breaks I'm sure, and I will not have any problems with them. They are a better breaking system. But for my capabilities my rim breaks are sufficient for me to ride safely. The only caveat, is carbon wheels and rim breaks in wet conditions are horrible! So I avoid riding that setup in wet conditions. If I do get caught in wet conditions, I am very cautious.
Rim brakes for me. No muss, no fuss. Easy to maintain and service. They get the job done for any kind of riding I'm ever going to be doing.
For me, particularly if I were riding on sketchy roads in heavy LA traffic, I'd invest my money in a good set of high visibility lights (front & back) and a good rear-view mirror to monitor traffic coming up behind me. See and be seen. 👍
I ride both brake systems. Disc in groups and rim riding solo with climbs. As a recovering weight weenie, it's cheaper to maintain my rim brake frame than invest in a disc brake bike that will compete with it on the scales.
Yeah, being a disc-braked weight weenie must be super-expensive.
I have bikes with rim brakes and bikes with discs. They all work great. Not worth arguing about.
My first year on disc brakes they were causing me all sorts of problems, and I was pretty unhappy with them. I think I’ve most figured out how to keep them running quietly (except in the rain) and braking smoothly now, and couldn’t really imagine myself buying another bike with rim brakes. My backup bike still has rim brakes and descending on it kind of feels terrifying now.
I had lots of noise trouble too with Ultegra 8000 disc for a long too. If I had to break heavily down a hill straight after I’d get the Ching, Ching, Ching, Ching noise for a while. I tried various recommended methods to get the pads seated and spread evenly but unwanted noise would come and go. In the end the best fix was I got a Park pad spreading tool to push the calipers back in a bit and that’s worked best. Have to repeat from time to time. Now my main issue is when I switch between road wheels and gravel wheels on my gravel bike. Different wheels with the same type of disc but clearly do not exactly line up so I have to release the bolts on the calipers and re-centre. So annoying and harder to do than when I’m changing between training wheels and race day deep carbon wheels on my road bike with rim breaks. This is when rim breaks are must less hassle. And you never have bleed rim breaks :)
@@shred3005 yup a major source of trouble for me was that the pistons were not protruding evenly - one side was sticking a bit. I followed a video on TH-cam to clean and lubricate the piston (using brake fluid), and then pushed both pistons all the way back using the park tool spreading tool, and repeated the alignment process. That made a big difference for the frequent noise issues I was getting.
The other issue is that I was probably cleaning the rotors too frequently with rubbing alcohol - thinking contamination was behind the noise issues. But now I mostly just wipe the rotors with a clean towel after hosing off my bike. And if I do need to clean them with alcohol, I make sure to repeat the bed in procedure (10 hard stops from 20kph or so).
And the last thing was just learning how to do alignment properly. I try to avoid even removing and reseating my wheels when possible as it seems like that can throw off alignment a bit, so I can definitely see how changing to a different wheel would make a big difference.
So definitely more finicky than rim brakes. And I hate doing maintenance on my bike. But still worth it IMO for being able to run fatter tires and improved braking.
I wouldn't want to be on a big downhill run (with rim brakes) that goes to either a dead end or some massively narrowed hard turn, but on the ones I have around where I live, they bottom out with time to slow down gradually (except one) on a flat or simply start rising again. The main thing for me is anticipating the clueless walkers, drivers, or bikers when I'm doing 35 MPH or more down the hill.
SOFT
@@stevenqirkle I've also had pinging noise issues. Pushing the pistons back in only sort of fixes the problem, what you need is to take the wheel out, put in something the width of the disc while holding down the brake, spray brake cleaner and rub around the pads with a brush.
Disc brakes: Stop faster even with one finger in the rain, safer, allows a wide variety of tire widths, and your $2k carbon wheels will last forever.
Rim brakes: save 30 seconds replacing a wheel, half a pound lighter (or one pre ride glass of water).
It's not a conspiracy, disc is better in all but very specific hill climb race situations. No hate for rim brakes, if you have a bike with them and you love it, keep riding it.
Disc brakes only stop faster if you have big enough tyres. I have both, I can lock up my rim brakes in the wet on a 25mm tyres, so what is the limiting factor there? If you are into motorsports and understand everything around braking you start to understand why disc brakes for road bike's are really not that much better unless you are a very heavy rider who likes to run wide tyres.
So you can very much argue that rim brakes in most applications are better than disc brakes.
Come on man who keeps anything forever these days, we live in a world where people preach about being environmentally friendly while getting new tech/cars/clothes every 6 months. My carbon rims are 8 years old and are still going strong, most people change there's every 4 years minimum
@liamcook6950 if you race motorsports, then you know modulation and feel are key for threshold braking. Discs have better feel and modulation.
@@DaveCM Again missing the point, you don't have any modulation if the brakes are far too strong for the grip levels. That's why you see a lot more crashes in the peloton due to people grabbing a fist load of brakes. Too much power for the amount of grip meaning you basically have no modulation
@@liamcook6950 are we really seeing crashes because of that? Do you have any evidence to support that?
@@DaveCM Do you not watch any cycling or interviews with the pro's? I think you are getting too touchy because I've bad mouthed disc brakes. I have just put a very good point forward. Disc brakes have a place on road bikes 100%. But for us who race or a very good, light riders, disc brakes are not really that much better and can actually be worse.
I still think the real reason bike companies pushed disc brakes has little to do with braking. It is because rim brakes are bad for carbon wheels, and if they sold rim brake bikes with carbon wheels and the rim failed from overheating the epoxy, or brake wear, they might get sued.
The brakes at the rim have better leverage. It takes less friction on the rim for the pads to effect breaking power. The closer you get to the middle of the wheel, the less effective you get at breaking... There is more material passing through the pads at the rim to dissipate the heat. The closer you get to the middle of the wheel, the more heat per mass. So more force and more specialized material are required for Disk brakes.
Frankly, I'm convinced they invented those bike disk brakes just so the companies have their product visible in a race. On cars, they make more sense, since they win the leverage argument compared to barrel brakes.
this and only this..
The brakes* / braking* power / disc* brakes* / barrel brakes*
@@einundsiebenziger5488 thanks. fixed
Got rid of brakes altogether over a decade ago... and the derailleurs... shifters... brake levers... and freewheel...
Yeah but some riders like to ride fast
@@paulschmidtke425 Trying to figure out if this is an insult, and why.
@@post_historic probably is a bit , don't know why really, sorry,
@@paulschmidtke425 he' could be riding as fast as a track/crit rider. I believe he's referring to making the switch to a fixie over a decade ago... brakes with the crank and his legs.
Nope. Rim for road disc for dirt. Rim cheaper, lighter, easier to maintain and adjust, more reliable. On the hills in ride I hit downhill speeds of 40-50 mph routinely, and rim has never failed me. Yes, disc is better in the rain which I view as another good reason to not ride in the rain. 😎 Disc on my SC Tallboy, the right thing for navigating tricky single track descents. Never seen a need for disc on gravel either.
If you like stopping easily and comfortably--discs RULE. If you like a bike that's easy to fix and maybe a little lighter... stay with Rim brakes.
If you've already got a steel frame and the bike weighs 24 lbs. you aren't going to want to add in something heavier either.
yeah, and steel bikes aren't really in the conversation much any longer. One doesn't get a steel frame for performance. More for classic appeal, craftsmanship, utility, touring etc.@@derekjolly3680
When I lived in Oregon I ditched my rim brake bike for discs way back in 2015 because I was frequently riding down steep, twisty hills in the rain and had one extremely memorable event in which I had both brakes squeezed almost back to the handlebars and was still managing to accelerate. I did make it to the bottom without crashing but I bought a rim brake bike the next week. Now I live in Savannah which is very flat but I still prefer disc brakes. Here I prefer them because we have horrible roads and I can run larger diameter rim widths and wider tires with rim brakes. So they're significantly more comfortable. Rim brakes would work absolutely fine riding here but in most circumstances discs are just more versatile. You get better performance AND comfort.
Spot on. It's happened to me - pouring rain, steep descent and rim brake levers pulled tight to the bars. You barely slow down.
I'll take discs for those conditions.
Cheers
Disk brakes allow for the design of wheels and frames that can accommodate tire widths that aren't compatible with rim brake calipers. Even if disk brakes weren't better at, you know...*braking* (and they are) they'd still be a significant advancement for both competitive athletes and recreational riders. Because of disk brakes, bikes are less fatiguing to ride, maintain better traction, experience lower rolling resistance, etc.
Here's another perspective: the best brakes are the ones on the bike that you ride. Brakes that you don't have are useless.
Exactly!
I tried these cork/rubber compound for the rim pads. They work almost as well as disk, but not quite.
yep the cork/rubber compound rim pads work very well on carbon.
Absolutely dead on and something I try to say myself when asked the question. For me and my use, my old tarmac with Ultegra R8000 rim works amazingly well. I do want to get a disc brake bike for certain things and am in the market but I will need money before I do that lol.
Rim brake for road, discs for gravel & mtb
Only way
As a vehicle dynamics consultant for many Indycar and F1 teams, as well as sanctioning bodies, here is the simple fact: if you can lock the wheel and skid the tire with whatever brake setup you have, having brakes that are 100,000x more powerful will not reduce your stopping distance by one millimeter. There are some arguments in favor of discs: long downhills, wet riding, wider tires, rider feel and control, etc., and some of them make sense. But unless you're coming down Mt. Ventoux, routinely ride in the rain, have 36 mm wide tires and/or have cheap, lousy rim brakes, save your money. And as for the serviceability of disk vs. rim brakes, it's no contest; rim brakes win easily.
Disc brakes are nothing more than a marketing ploy by the industry to make all the sheep go out and buy new bikes/wheels/frames, and it has worked ! A well set up rim brake is more than a match for discs and has none of the disc brakes disadvantages.
try rim brakes for your car and get back to me
@@worstretirementever We are talking about cycles here, not cars. Disc brakes have their uses on off road bikes where buckled rims are far more likely, but on a road bike what is the point ? They weigh more, are more sensitive to set up and are far more difficult to change a wheel in the event of punctures. Then there is the argument regarding unsprung weight in which they also hold a disadvantage, plus they are very easily taken out of true rendering them almost useless...need I go on ? oh, and by the way....BAAAAAAAAA !
its marketing. nothing more. rim for road, disc for dirt. so easy. maintaine/cost wise for sure and who think as a normal casual weekend warrior he is faster up + down should check his strava profil segments in reflexion with his training status in that time from rim and disc and he has the answer easly
Not denying the performance aspect but many have been priced out. Barrier for entry and the cost of maintenance.
I'm still up in the air with disc brakes but the frame I'm currently working on will require a disc rear brake , however I have a rim brake on the front on my MTB.
First time I rode disks riding aggressive mtb I never wanted to deal with rim brakes again for that situation. Now I want a road bike with disks, cause I ride hills sometimes and the pads for carbon rims wear fast, and the pads for aluminum rims wear even faster and make a huge mess if they get wet during a descent, plus either way rim brakes wear your rims.
I can't believe people still bring this up as a "debate". Disc brakes have been available on road bikes since 2012 and started to really take over in 2015. Up until about 2019, bike makers sold both rim brake and disc brake versions of various bikes. No one bought the rim brake versions of those bikes so the brands stopped selling them. If you want to "blame" anyone for the death of rim brakes, blame your fellow riders. Mechanical drivetrains and tubed road tires are next on the chopping block, better stock up now if you care...
Right. The manufacturers are in it to make a buck, and if people will buy rim brake bikes, they will make them.
I don't agree on the mechanical drivetrains though. At the top end, yes. Some of us use bicycles as our primary transportation and having a bicycle that won't shift because of a dead battery is a non-starter. Yes, there will never be a 15 speed mechanical groupset, and I'm OK with that. I use 8X2 speed on my commuter as it is.
Pretty easy to ride rim brakes when I can't afford to upgrade to a similarly nice bike.
I mean, Shimano is one of Phil's sponsors and they just brought out the latest 105 without a rim brake version... he's not exactly gonna put them on blast. Anyway, Phil is a legend of the sport and if he's happy on discs, good for him!
Got to be some nice profit margins on the rotors
Any data on disc brakes stopping 5 feet sooner? A perfectly modulated stop is a perfectly modulated stop, IMO. You can lock up the wheel and skid with either system which isn't ideal.
disc brakes on TT bikes, that is the biggest nonsense ever!
I’m unwilling to go back to skinny road tires or aluminum rims. The combination of supple ride, grip, and speed with 30-32 mm tires is just too good to give up. With a gravel, MTB, and fat bike in the garage, all with discs, what’s the issue with having one more (my road bike)? Same issue with tubeless tires. I buy sealant by the quart since my wife has the same four bike models. We’re all disc and all tubeless on eight bikes, so maintenance is pretty simple and consistent.
Well, I’m interested in upgrading wheels on my single speed flite 100, and will keep it rim brakes. Any suggestions for new wheels set?
Only time I feel I want disc brakes is when descending mountains. The irony is I don’t want them going up. Or Crit/road racing. So they’re pointless for me.
Thanks, Phil. I've been saying for years that it's not the Pros who need disc brakes, it's lesser mortals like us who can't replace our wheels on a regular basis and, as you say, have other, unpredictable, road users to contend with.
if we all had closed roads, rim brakes forever
Wow, US folks are verbose.
Rim brakes or disc brakes? How long does it take to answer a simple question? I am a quarter of the way through the video and this nice chap is talking about uphill or downhill or in in her lady’s chamber and everything except which kind of brakes he prefers and why.
Update: I watched to the end and it got no better, his conclusion was something about airline CEOs. Seriously.
Am I the only one to think that :
Rim brakes - easier to maintain, cheaper, brakes really good, is more aero, is shit under the rain if with carbon wheels.
Disk : harder to maintain, more expensive overall, brakes well under rain, lots of noise and wabling in alpine descents, has worst aero performance.
If you ride a lot under rain, go for disk brakes. Otherwise its just a waste of time and money.
Disc brakes: good enough for commuter cars, good enough for F1 cars, good enough for motorcycles.
Cyclists: Yeah, but do they work for me on my group ride?
Of course they do, they are just heavier, need heavier frame and are less aero. F1 cars and motorcycles have ENGINES and are HEAVY. Bikes are, or more "should be" light. The work with disc brakes, but they are not needed.
I'll say it. Rim > Disc 😂 Honestly, to each his own. Both systems have their applications. I do find it somewhat amusing how much coin people will burn on saving grams when they can shed an easy 1-2 pounds by avoiding disc.
Disc brakes make wheels immortal , if there's anyone else out there who's financially challenged
How much do you spend on rotors and pads?
@@MrHcharles or the hydraulic calipers?
@@MrHcharles are you serious, heaps cheaper than worn out rims and total wheel rebuild
@@lukewalker1051 mechanical discs is what I use avid bb7 brilliant brake match anything hydro , don't have to worry about my $2000 wheels being worn out to useless and dangerous by calipers ,
@@MrHcharles also rotors can be had for as little as $12 new and I use metal pads so quite long lasting
RIM BRAKE CARTEL!!! always!!
My last time riding rim brakes was 20+ years ago. Both the C type on an old vintage schwinn and V brakes on my BMX's.
Compared to the disk brakes ive been using on the mtb i was given to get back into cycling and the endurance bike i bought.
I feel like i have much more control/modulation on disk brakes. But I do notice its harder for me to feel the point the tire will break traction.
i would say ride whatever works for you. As a student, i don't have the budget for a nice hydraulic disc bike and i strongly prefer rim brakes over mechanical discs because the latter has the worst of both worlds. You can still buy a new rim brake bike for about the same money as a new mechanical disc bike, but it would cost you less hassle and money in the long run as in my experience cheap rotors and pads wear much quicker than cheap rim pads and aluminium rims. mechanical discs may stop better in the rain, but i didn't feel like rim brakes were ineffective at all in the same conditions.
I know you said you were not reading anymore comments. But your are incorrect about one aspect of the braking power. Unless it's raining, you can lock your rim brakes down just as much as you can lock disc brakes, at that point the only thing that matters is how much rubber you have on the pavement. Add to that all the additional maintenance that comes with disc brakes, and the pesky squeaking and rubbing of the disc and the pads. All I am saying is, give the consumers the option.
Why is nobody talking about the costs ?
I have rim brakes AND bikes with disc brakes.
If i want to overtake my disc brake bikes with regards to costs... I need to park them and ride my rim brake Dogma, every day for 300 years, riding down hill ONLY.
Yes, it is THAT insane ! in 8 years i might have swapt the rim brake pads once MAYBE. I am not even sure about that !
In the mean time, in the past 3 years i have already spent hundreds upon hundreds of euros on discs, pads, maintenance, disc brake cleaner, etc. It is BONKERS !
THERE IS NO COMPARISON ! Not for 99,99% of us not riding for a living !
And the performance difference is absolutely negligible when riding aluminium rims. Carbon rims in very bad weather, okay. But that is another idiotic 'innovation' for us mortals.
Agree, but disc brakes are good to me. I can buy rim braked wheels, frames and groupsets at a FRACTION of their cost when new to build fantastic bikes!! Rgr
is it common for disc brakes to squeak in the rain? This is my experience with disc brakes for the most part. Sure they work great in the rain but the squeaking is so annoying. Rim brakes dont do that
I like stopping
Brakes are good
How much did you get, Phil, to tout the disc brake sales gimmick the industry is using to sell everyone a different (improved) frame?
Love discs on my CX/gravel and MTBs. I’m impressed with the braking on my mid-range carbon rims with the supplied pads on my older roadie. They both have a lot of miles left in them. But next roadie hell yes disc.
I guess people would call me a casual cyclist. I consider myself a serious bike user, just not much concerned with speed.
I prefer rim brake because they are cheap and practical to service. I control my speed especially downhill. I even have a coaster brake on my internal hub 3 speed.
Not everyone on a bike cares about speed or descents. It is simply more comfortable for me to walk steep descents, as they are rare and short.
The way they use a power screwdriver to undo the thru axle makes it fairly quick in races as well. But if everyone adopted speed release, it would be no slower than quick release.
I have a disc brake road bike and I hate it. There is constantly something wrong with these breaks and they need service all the time. In rain they are mad loud and the discs rub for few hundred meters after every hard braking.
I'm having much more fun with my hassle free brakeless fixed gear.
Then something is wrong with your bike. High-quality disc brake bikes shouldn't be like that. I've had 3 of them without such issues.
@@erich8258Ultegra R8000 with 140mm rotors
... these brakes*
No one mentions the price of disc pads ,that last if your lucky over six months of cycling , and then the faff of adjusting them not to Rub/ squeel ,
I'd say the biggest advantage of disk brakes is that you can fit hydraulic calipers to it. Hydraulic calipers are stronger but more importantly, they're a lot easier to squeeze so your arms and fingers don't get tired on long descents
You also have Hydraulic V-brakes.
Disk brakes suck. Through axles suck. Give me an ultegra caliper, cool stop pads and a Ksyrium wheel
broken spoke puts a wobble in the wheel. With rim brake you have to stop and straighten the wheel enough to keep riding. Disk brake is not effected by wobbly wheel - finish your ride - fix it when you get home.
Just getting back into road biking after six years of disk brakes on my Marin hybrid, they've taken a little reacquainting from having them on the old road bike I rode as a teenager (plus and minus of that) centered around 1980. The thing is the rim brakes reflect the older school style of my older type design bike, which is made by State Bicycle Company, who've tended to fixed gear models. At this point under the circumstances, having not often been in close traffic situations, they seem decent enough for me, and I appreciate the simplicity and even the elegance of them. Planning ahead is a factor, but I do do that. The fact is that while I won't altogether shut down cycling this winter, I will transition to my Marin and my e-bike for utility riding all the way, and for any pure exercise rides all the way. They've got disk brakes and larger tires and make more sense for any rain or snow bits I run across.
Rim Brakes are fine. But racing crits in the rain behind a 60kg rider tapping his disc brakes and me riding on carbon rims at 85kg has lead to me switching to disc brakes. In good weather i prefer rim brakes for the easy maintenance at a lower cost. Wheels can be changed quicker and slight deviations in the wheels do not cause horrible brake rub. Readjusting calipers can be such a hassle, especially if the frame has not been prepared perfectly.
Can rim brakes accomodate 32c tyres? Really need a wide tyre cus our roads are shit
yes they can, but as tires get wider (i sometimes run 42c knobbies) you should look into cantilever brakes or disc brakes.
i tour and commute, so cantilever is for me. they are a cinch for me to work on but they are so dependable that i never touch them until it's time to replace the pads.
most importantly they easily stop my loaded bike, rain or shine
You need a motorcycle, not a bicycle
@@kevinbourke4038 ok koya
Nobody needs 32 mm tyres on a road bike. 28 mm is wide enough.
100kg rider. Rim 100%. I have both, discs fade. Also the strengthening needed at fork messes up ride. I decend damn fast and the rims do a better job.
Wet: well yeah OK but thats 10% or less of the time. Oh, and they are soooo ugly