MOUNTAIN BIKER"S TAKE: The argument for rim brakes only works for road bikes. I've been trashing trails since the 90's. Every trail ride the rim gets dust, dirt, mud, sand, or snow on them, which effects descents / cornering when using rim brakes. Learning the modulation for each brake is critical to building muscle memory. Once I went to discs, my braking performance and maintenance got 1000x' better. The rim brake during the dry summer months is good, but once the trails get moist...it is mission impossible keeping the grime out of the housing (road grime too). Once grime gets in there, both housing and cable need to replaced. Not to mention the sanding affect on the rims and pads. I have concaved several rims and finding the same sized rim to reuse the spokes is not always easy. And I do clean the braking surfaces after each ride. I think many gravel riders would have a similar opinion. The rough terrain and chain lube is a serious issue too. With the chain bouncing, droplets of lube gets on the rear drive-side rim and causes me to press the lever even harder. Just my experience.
I've had good luck upgrading my MTB's to front disc, while keeping the rear rim brake -- generally works a charm since you don't need as much stopping power on the rear. If you want more, you can always try ceramic rims, and also waxing your chain, which also greatly increases your drivetrain lifespan.
Same for road riding in winter conditions on countries that actually have weather. I’m on the road 100% of the time, but it’s wet, has mud, gravel, farmyard manure and all sorts on it in UK country lanes. Dirt and water just make rim brakes a non-argument for year round use on road in any country with variable weather: - I don’t want to run crappy training wheels for 90% of the year just to save my good carbon rims ‘for best’. With disc I can run good aero wheels 100% of the time. - The only aero rim brake wheels are carbon. Stopping performance in even light rain is awful, and I’ve been caught out in a rainstorm suddenly having no stopping power and finding myself in a hedge. Why would anyone want to worry about this happening? - The industry has already decided that disc is the way forward. All the arguments for rim performance being better, lighter etc are void because they don’t even make performance wheels for rim brake any longer. No one is doing R&D for rim wheels because no one is racing them. Disc wheelsets are lighter because all the work is done on making them lighter. - The pros now use 30-32c tyres routinely for performance reasons, which are too large to even fit on the most recent road rim calipers.
@@reginaldscot165 cyclocross, gravel, rainy geography with 6% hills and passenger vehicles. Not having to question how much material in left in my rim/breaking surface, especially carbon. I'm very thankful for functionality, cost, and orthogonality of disc brakes. +Thru axels!! 😙👌
i just returned from the 8th Tour of Asir in Saudi Arabia. i was the main mechanic there. my whole day was spent aligning disc brake calipers& rotors, bleeding Sram and Shimano brakes. i had to carry both bleed kits. couldnt mix Dot and Mineral stuff. punctures galore-we had 32 this year and a really nasty single -rider crash. 67-strong peloton. i had an asst. mechanic. i made sure he had a 6mm Allen key in his pocket for wheel removal and reinstall. brake disc rotors overheating on those long hot descents. brakes squealing and screeching, brake disc rub... God forbid , you accidently touched the rotor while replacing tubes on-the-go(no spare wheels either-there'd be too many to carry due to different types(10s,11s,12s-rim brake,disc brake, different rotor sizes too). lest i forget, rounded off allen key hole on one of the thru-axles, a guy who forgot his axle in Riyadh and we couldn't get the correct thread pitch. he rode the Tour on a borrowed trainer thru-axle which left the trainer extra-long axle ends jutting out on both sides!
@@reginaldscot165 it was hot this year too. Jabal alSouda,was hot this year. It’s the highest peak. The accident that happened, guy hit a cateye while descending. Broke his forks and his head. His Garmin registered 80km/hr at the time of crash.
@@reginaldscot165 lest i forget, one of the riders drove me mad, his bike rattled all the time. i thought that the builder hadn't put in the hose dampening tubes at time of install, checked that-nope. checked the hoses going thru the bars-nope, checked his cages-nope. it turned out to be the thru-axle removable release lever, the head of the axle was getting rounded off due to him constantly taking off rear wheel to put bike on trainer. i took off the lever-totally silent!
After 50 years in the saddle , I’m sticking with rims , unless I’m mistaken when any mechanical system becomes more complex , your more in the hands of specialists . For most of us , it’s the self maintenance that makes cycling reachable to most people , ultimately more enjoyable & environmently friendly , the more recent “advancements “ have taken that away from most consumers . History might view these advancements in a different light , more of a marketing hype & a step sideways . K.I.S.S , “keep it simple stupid !” Great video , benchmark for brake systems.
off road when riding muddy trails, disc brakes are far superior. I used to ride for fun, commuting and to keep fit so never had 'latest and greatest' of anything plus didn't worry too much about weight (still using Muddy Fox from early 80's when they were good and 'Made in England' even though it's close to 30lbs)
Disc brakes are pretty easy to maintain. I've been riding for nearly 40 years myself. Once I learned them and got the proper tools, they are very easy. You just have to learn them.
I'm an all-weather rider in the Seattle area (a.k.a. the Pacific NorthWET). I switched to disc brakes because I was tired of treating rims as a consumable that had to be replaced yearly, sometimes more often. The initial extra cost of a disc-equipped bike is more than offset by the reduce ongoing maintenance costs. Getting new wheels built every year gets expensive!
I got into cycling in 2019 and my first bike was disc, you are 100% correct. The feeling of betrayal when I borrowed my friends rim brake allez was crazy. I felt like I'd been gaslit into thinking cycling had to be an expensive hobby if you wanted even baseline performance.
That’s a really concise and good summary of the problem of how manufacturer marketing departments ruined cycling for many people. 👍🏻 My friend had a similar experience. He owned 5 bikes (all carbon and some disc.) before he tried a rim Allez, the rim Allez is now his favourite bike. 😅
@holben27 thanks for posting your experience ……….it speaks volumes 👍. Ask most mechanics to suggest desirables in a first bike and most will include ‘mechanical, external cables, rim brake, alu frame’ , something the majority of the industry effectively seeks to remove from you (for their excessive profit ).
I stopped watching when you started greatly exaggerating the maintenance costs of disc brakes. I’ve had disc brakes for 5 years, replaced discs once and pads once. Total spend: approx NZ$250. Never had to re-bleed them. Never had to replace the hydraulic fluid. Had to centre the callipers once when I bought new wheels - took less than a minute to do both. It’s like you’re comparing the absolute worst case scenario with disc brakes to the absolute best case scenario with rim brakes.
Exaggerating with evidence? I played a video of somebody else’s experience, a famous TH-cam engineer. And I have worked in a bike shop for the last eight years. So… 🤷🏻♂️
You are absolutely correct and Reginald is too arrogant to be able to admit that he is clearly not offering a balanced view on rim vs disc brakes. I can 100 percent confirm your experience. I have had hydraulic disc brakes for 15 years on several bikes. Had to change discs rarely, pads occasionally (more often on mountain bikes, which isn't surprising considering the terrain). I never had to change any seals (also not on the hydraulic HS 33 rim brakes which I used for two decades - super reliable). Reginald should just say "I am old fashioned, I don't like rim brakes and now I am trying to find evidence which fits my opinion" - but then of course nobody would watch this video. 😀 (unsubscribed this channel)
@@reginaldscot165 your evidence is a video where the mechanics put a big amount of oil on the brakes and then simulated getting the squeaking away How ist that neutral? u didnt even mention the context of the video to get your point across which is lying to the viewer
@@reginaldscot165 How about evidence of 20 years of running disc brakes. NEVER have I had to replace a rotor. And Since I have updated bikes every 4 to 5 years I have NEVER replaced a set of pads, save for twice with oil contamination. And they are not expensive. Disc brake set up is 1 minute. Back when I ran rim brakes it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get the pads evenly set up. Nothing this guys is accurate on average and he really is citing only extreme cases of each end. Comparing worst case scenario against best case.
The disk version of that same wheel will be significantly more expensive and heavier, and has additional expensive parts. Therefore rim brakes are still cheaper when we compare the running cost as a whole package.
You can get good carbon rim for 200 EUR and it may last 100000 km. Discs are also a consumable items and I would bet that they need to be replaced way more often.
I bought my first bike with disc brakes in 2015. Still rolling today as good as ever. All I ever do was to change the pads, maybe twice along the years, with super cheap ones from aliexpress. When I bought that bike, I also bought a kit to purge/change the oil. I never used it, it must be somewhere hidden in the back of a cupboard. So, I have all the benefits of disc brakes, with no problem, and the cheapest maintenance possible.
I have like 5 friends who are into road cycling, we are all around 15-16 years old and all of them love disc brakes and keep hating me for liking rim brakes😂, because they just take their bikes into a bike shop and never want to deal with anything. I am the only one who does his own maintenance, my dad is really good at fixing literally anything and he taught me how to fix everything on a bike myself. Me and my dad used to ride rims for many years, now we both got a road and a cyclocross bike with disc brakes. Since we go by the mentality of just figuring out ourselves we were really frustrated so many times doing disc brake maintenance. It just isn’t straightforward as a rim brake system. We trashed 3 pairs of relatively new pads and one rotor just because of contamination. I once wanted to change my handlebars to a new carbon one piece and it was a nightmare, brake fluid everywhere in the garage, had to go to my LBS 3 times for just disc brake components and that itself cost me 50€. I am now looking for a used bike with rim brakes but sadly even on the used market there isn’t a lot of options. I just wish that the manufacturers would give the option at least. Great video!
Great comment and story. Your friends must be rich to get someone to always fix their bikes and do nothing themselves? You sound like me as a boy, my father is the same and although it’s easy to pay someone, in the long run knowing how to do something yourself is very important. Good luck and all the best! 🙏🏻
We should have the choice but I don’t believe disc brakes on a road bike are necessary. It’s very wrong that the major brands won’t offer the rim brake option
@@reginaldscot165 Maybe sales numbers from years when both options were available would reveal the reason there is no choice anymore. Rim brakes might as well be a niche market - similar to 2x drivetrain on MTB.
the market and us cyclists are partially to blame. If there's two bikes one disc and one rim at the same price. Which one will the majority of people buy? people only want affordable rim brakes.
Agreed that more choice is always better, but having said that, as an ex-Colorado roadie with 50 years of riding under my belt, I can tell you that in cases of extreme downhills or low temps, discs are absolutely superior. If you ride where the land isn’t wrinkly, or the temps are always mild, rim brakes might not be a bad idea.
Reginald Is 100% spot on. I'm a pro mechanic, so I work on bikes all day that belong to people with less knowledge of brake system care, and 9 times out of 10 when I TR a customer bike before a tuneup, the bikes with disc systems have less braking power than the ones with rim brakes, because rim brakes fare better over time with little to no maintenance than disc brakes. The average consumer doesn't own a bleed kit and seems to have a hard time not contaminating their brake surfaces. I own some bikes with rim brakes and some with disc, and they both have their place. I love having disc brakes on my carbon gravel wheels, but I hate that my new $7000 carbon gravel bike isn't much lighter the ones I was riding 20 years ago because of it. I definitely don't think disc brakes are an advancement, and I absolutely know that bike manufacturers got a lot of people to throw perfectly great rim brake bikes aside and buy new disc equipped bikes on the premise that it was an advancement.
It's not that simple. It costs the manufactures of all of the stuff a lot more money to sell and support both rim and disc brake versions. Follow the $$$. For better or for worse, everything is going disc now. If you're buying new in the mid to upper level, you really no longer have a choice unless you get something custom made.
@@b1blancer1 If enough customers prefer rim brakes, companies can sell enough rim brake frames to justify the manufacturing overhead cost. And guess what? There are not enough customers. Speaking louder does not make the group bigger.
My 2015 Masi Gran Corsa came with rim breaks, and I can easily lock up both breaks, even wet. I bought that bike in 2017 and have ridden it for many thousands of miles, and I have never replaced the pads yet. It still has the original cables, too. I did replace a cable on the bike. The rear derailleur cable got replaced in 2023. Im completely happy with the breaks as I am completely happy with the whole bicycle 🚲. All original except for the one cable 😊❤
@4ndyc74 🤪you're an idiot. If the brakes have the ability to lock up when wet, then why the hell would you want to "upgrade" braking power by switching to disc? The point is that rim brakes have plenty of stopping power as they are. Simple, cheap, and lighter. No new specialty tools to buy and etc. Have I simplified it enough for you yet?
Disc brakes have a place on mountain bikes that often travel through mud. Rims get muddy, and muddy brakes dont do much to slow down a bike. It would have to be REAL deep for discs to get muddy. But I see no reason for discs on a road bike. My road bike doesn't go off the road where the mud could be, and I've never seen mud on any of the trails or roads I ride.
Recently found your channel, and as a functional minimalist who wants less maintenance and more value for my money (my bike is a tool more than anything) I can vibe with a lot of your videos. Great content!
What a great speaking style. The content itself could have been very nerdy/boring, but the content presenter brightened it up and brought it to life-showcasing his knowledge and innocent charisma! I’m an all-weather, fitness rider on a hybrid bike. I run errands, visit coffee shops, grocery stores, and farmers markets. Rim brakes are just fine for my purposes.
Having ridden rim and disc and taken all 50 minutes of "data" in the video into account, I'm still not convinced that I should go back to buying rim bikes. This issues you're experiencing with disc have not affected me and I've only had better stopping in wet and dry weather. Emergency stopping has been a lot faster as well.
As a cyclist that services their own bike and having a solid DuraAce groupset, I feel much happier servicing rim brakes. When I first got into cycling, I was riding a hard-tail MTB with disc brakes, and while it was cool and useful with wide tyres, the servicing for all the reasons mentioned in the video was a nightmare. I have been long thinking about upgrading to a disc frame, but the PTSD of dealing with disc brake servicing and the issues with pad contamination, accidental piston over-extension, rotor warp and accidentally singeing my leg multiple times when carrying the bike with hot rotors up several flights of stairs were really annoying. All well and good for a pro-rider whose team mechanics have to suffer the inconvenience. I found this video refreshing as it really logically laid out all the reasons why rim brakes are superior all things considered, and I am now convinced to save myself the heartache and stick with what is best suitable for my road bicycle.
That was, indeed, very thorough. I have an old-school titanium rim bike. The one thing I envied about newer bikes was disc brakes. But this video cured me of that. Thank you.
Don't let this guy talk you out of discs. Hydraulic discs are far superior to rims in stopping power . Also not discussed is far less lever pressure is needed for those of us who have some hand or wrist issues.
Insightful commentary. Disc brakes on road bikes came along slightly after rims went to carbon and the bike wouldn't stop. Aluminum rims stop fine when wet. The first revolution cleans off the rim and the pads grip. The pads, especially when dirty, do score the braking surface on the aluminum rims, but they still won't crack for 30,000 miles, and can be cheaply replaced on the same hubs, which last much longer on old fashioned cup and cone bearings. You make the case well for the killer of disc brakes to be maintenance. All I've had to do with rime brakes is change the pads, center the caliper by eye with an Allen wrench, all of which takes only a few minutes. I've also ridden Campy side pull brakes on two bike for 30 years and always felt they were designed on purpose to be athletically gripped hard on high speed or steep descents, consistent with the concept of "manual bikes." I've had no problem slowing down, although the aluminum rims heat up enough to burn my fingers if touched, and heard tell have sometimes have melted the glue and actually blown a tubular tire off the rim. The remedy for that is brake in short bursts and don't ride the brakes down the mountain.
Yes indeed, it was the same with my father in the mountains of Italy on our holidays, driving his car he wouldn’t rub the disc brakes all the way down the mountain because you over heat them. In both situations it’s knowing how to drive or knowing how to cycle that saves you.
@@paulmcknight4137 I have blown a tyre off a rim and I was using my brakes conservatively. Luckily I was able to ride on the rim until I could stop . My legs were so shaky that I couldn’t stand
Happened to me before and my legs were shaking too ! I was able to stay on the bike too but the front rim was badly scratched and bent . I bent it straight on my knee and fitted the tyre and cycled home about 40 kilometres away. Hope you have got over the shock . Luckily I was forced to ride after the repairs l made and it is the best way of getting over the shock . Glad you were ok !
Superb analysis! Still riding a titanium bike with rim brakes and plan to keep it that way. And I ride year-round in the rain and on the very steep hills in the Seattle area and have never had a problem stopping. Never! And no maintenance. None other than replacing the pads once in about 10 years.
Well said. I do Triathlons. I use 3 different bikes, 2 of which I train on. Mavic Open Pro C Rims with Dura Ace Rim brakes. One of my training loops, 28.6 miles, has 8 climbs that are in the 12%-14% grade with one decent where I top 48 mph and have to brake very hard to almost a complete stop. Rim brakes have no trouble whatsoever stopping on a dime. My competition bike is an S-Works SL6 set up for Tri. Again Rim brakes on Carbon Roval CLX 50 Rapide Rims. Stops on a dime. I hope I never have to go disc...
Thank you. I was wondering if I was missing something not having disc brakes. You've convinced me I am not; in fact, I am happy that I don't have them.
Very watchable summary I've always instinctively thought the imposition of MTB braking tech on the road market was pure marketing bs. I remember when Cyclingnews et al would wax lyrical about the powerful braking of dual pivot Dura Ace calipers. All the while MTB riders where on disc. Nobody complained about being unable to stop using rim brakes!
@@Mafacracer I experienced lack of braking at all in XC seceral times...luckily never on road. On one very muddy XC marathon clay was sticking to tires, rims and fork. Dirty brakes just literally ate entire brakes pads in one hour. After this clay section rides were taking a bath with their bikes in nearby lake to be able to continue. More experienced knew this tricky part and were runing with their bikes on the shoulder to skip this section. Disc brakes users were significantly less affected. Another time in winter a lot of snow collected on rim brakes just froze on long flat section blocking brakes later. These cases would be rather extreme on the road, however while riding in the rain I'm happy rottors and brake pads are far away from thevroad surface.
@@asengineer4594 MTB is essentially Motocross without an engine it doesn't have anything to do with road riding. Nothing against it just saying a lack of braking power was never discussed in the road cycling media prior to the marketing of road disc. Sure there's always going to be someone who has niche needs but the wholesale change of framesets and ugly wheels didn't need to happen. It wasn't organic or driven by consumer demand.
Thank you, some MTB trials riders use hydraulic rim brakes because (they say in videos I’ve seen) the rim gives more powerful breaking and less give in the system.
@@pkundratgood point, long or steep descents are more enjoyable when you can use less hand grip force to maintain braking power thanks to hydraulic assistance.
I've never replaced a disc rotor on my CX bike. Part of the secret is that I don't buy Shimano's discs, which as near as I can tell, are completely awful. By comparison, I've definitely destroyed a few rims in my life because of wear and tear, mostly because spring riding in Canada is very hard on those parts. I've literally had two rims explode under the pressure of the tyre, and once was on a ride. This isn't to contest the point of the video, per se, just that parts selection actually does make a difference.
@@reginaldscot165 Road bikes...on the road? Yes? (Technically, it was a cyclocross bike on the road, but I only ever used it on the road so I could ride through the winter.)
Can see considerable thought, effort and time went into the production of this ……….well done Reginald worthy of taking the time to view it all. Exactly right ….horses for courses …… but the genuine advantages of disc on road bikes, from a mechanic’s viewpoint, effectively nil for most riders. Not all tech transfers from the MTB world onto road apply the benefits from a completely different scenario or add value in practice. You covered it all. Final observation riders opting for disc on road is often more to do with ‘ feeling of security’ rather than reality based on physics …… the truly objectionable part is large brand frame manufacturers and the big three narrowing options to extract excess profits from their consumer base. Follow the money and therein lies the answer.
Money argument makes no sense. My zipp or Enve are much more than winspace to replace. Ok, let’s entertain this… This gentleman is comparing x2=$100 disc replacement to be cheaper than rim brake winspace $250 rim. Labor to re lace will run 500 for front and rear - so $750 at min instead of swapping out disc I can do at home in 15 min. There is nothing wrong with disc, nothing wrong with rim. In wet, grimy and mountains use disc. In flats and sunny climates use rim. If you can only have one, do disc, unless your rims are alloy, which then don’t matter.
Ha ha are you paying someone $500 USD to build your wheels? WTF. 😄 Also it’s every 6 years not 2-3 times a year like discs. Also most people don’t even have the tools to replace the disc so they still need to pay someone for that and they also pay more often to maintain a disc system. Maintenance on rim in that 6 years is basically nothing.
@@reginaldscot165 If they're six-bolt rotors pretty much everyone who has *any* tools will have the tools to replace them considering a basic multitool will do the job. And replacing rotors 2-3 times per year? Who is doing that? I've got 8000km over 16 months on my road bike rotors and they're nowhere near needing replacement. Maybe if you live in a mountainous area you might need to replace your rotors more frequently (still can't believe 2-3 times per year) but if you live in a flat area like I do they'll last much longer.
@@reginaldscot165 yes, where I live a broken spoke replacement and true is $100. I am running disk for 3rd year here in the Rockies, no maintenance yet.
Great video on a much needed topic. Saw this before I set out to “bed in” my new disc pads. Never had a problem with squawking brakes on my rim brake bikes!!🤨. Thanks Reginald for this video. Perhaps a video on retrofit possibilities for disc brake bikes to rim is in order…or wait until the bike industry starts listening to consumers and allows them to make the choice between rim or disc…rather than be force fed “tech” with dubious benefits. Don’t get me started on tubeless road bike tires…
One of best compilation of Rim Vs Disc Brake! I learned a lot. Infact I started road bikes (since 2021) with disc brake's bike, but now I tends to revert back to rim brake bike more & more. As it was much lighter, easier for home mechanic, & so many great used rim-brake road bikes out there. Disc brake was not gimmick (imo) just it wasn't that necessary for road bikes. Again I really enjoy this video, well done!
Aluminium rim brake rims do crack sooner or later,but that is a long process.All the rims I cracked were single waĺled,still haven't experienced double walled aluminium rims to fail.Wiping rims and sanding pads is a good practice to maintain.
I've riden double walled aluminium cheap ass rim brake wheels for over 8 years and they never failed me no cracking even crashed em over 20 times potholes numerous they tough tough when they have multiple walls 😂
In a wet environment (Vancouver BC) I was going through a rim every 12-18 months with rim brakes, long before they cracked, the sidewalls were simply worn out and dangerous. An absolute PITA.
I didn't want to believe a lot of what Durianrider says - but the more experienced I become as a cyclist, the more I realise he is correct about quite a lot.
You just have to look at the sugar consumption and cadence the worlds fastest riders do today to realise I was right all along. Ask Jonas, Remco and Tadej who they watched as juniors on youtube who inspired them to crack at strava segments, guzzle more sugar than anyone and spin to win obsessively. Duning Kruger is the biggest performance blocker out there today for non pro cyclists. They got fleeced by the big brand marketing teams. Im here to change that.
@@Archiconocido I agree! I heard durian boy is dead broke, all those girls in his vids are his sisters and he lives in a hut made of shoe boxes filled with sand!
Excellent video, and the points you make are perfectly valid. I started riding quite a bit before you were born, and from the 70s to the mid 80's there were some big improvements made with braking systems on bikes (ignoring the Campy Delta.... less said the better). We all got used to how they worked, and we all rode with the knowledge of their operating window. That's not to say they were perfect, because they weren't, but we were all using the same stuff so we just got used to it. Through the 90's rim brakes really were pretty good, and I certainly didn't find myself wanting more stopping power. Then we started down the aero rabbit hole, and that really changed how these brakes felt. No matter how hard, sending a brake cable round a forced bend is going to introduce some extra friction, and reduce the feel. I recall the first time I built a bike with concealed brake cables, and it was really noticeable. This only got worst as more and more frames introduced more aero frames, sending brake cables all over the place, not to mention the shifter cables too. Around this time the offroad bikes were starting to introduce disc brakes, and if you've ever ridden a cantilever equipped off road bike, you'll know what a horrible mess that was. Disc brake really did make a difference, and this was 1990 (I think it was Condor who made the first available bike). I don't think anyone would ever want to go back to rim brakes for an off road bike. So we had a number of development paths all moving along at the same time, aero frames, disc brakes wider tyres and latterly tubeless tech. That's not even taking into account electronic shifting and gravel bikes. I'm not saying all this has been perfectly executed, but in all the things that have changed, would I want to go back to rim brakes ? Hell no. As with all cyclists we all have n+1 bikes, and all my current bikes are disc, and the differences are so small it takes a very short time to recalibrate. And my final note is your comment on the pros missing corners, I think you'll find there were plenty of riders overshooting corners on rim brakes, these tended to be the larger riders who were not on the TV. Pretty sure if you asked Tom Pidcock what he'd prefer to descend on, I recon he's say disc. And He's pretty good ;-)
They aren’t “missing corners” they can’t stop! Go watch the full video on Durian riders channel. (I have a rim Vs playlist, it’s on there.) They are swearing because the discs are completely over heated. He didn’t just miss 1 corner, he is missing all of them. And he’s not the only example. 😅
Great video. I think what is lost in the discussion about disc vs rim, is the fact the the disc is a smaller diameter than the rim, requiring more force to stop the wheel due to leverage. This is probably the reason for the complaints about mechanical discs, the increased hand strength needed to effect braking. Physics dictates that clamping a spinning wheel to a stop at it's largest diameter takes less force than grabbing it near it's rotational point. I have 2 disc bikes, and both brake fine (TRP Spyres on one better than the Tekro on the other), but I also have a rim brake bike, and really don't see the benefit of disc unless I was in bad weather. Also, the disc systems are typically far heavier.
Wow so many well thought out explanations on rim and disk brakes that I haven't heard before. Definitely going to stay with my rim brakes moving forward on my road bikes. Thanks for the useful insights.
Multiple times you conflate hydraulic disc with mechanical disc. You pick the worst traits of both systems to compare to the best rim brake systems can offer.
My Best braked bike is hydraulic disc, worst is rod braked, well rod brakes is not right, it doesn’t slow you down, you just don’t know how scared you are, because the bike shakes so much 😂
@@ianboyd9723 I doubt rim brakes would be much better there, with much worse hand fatigue. You can reduce brake fade with better rotors and pads most likely
Lun Hypers are the best wheels for Rim brakes, they're light, fast, snappy, extremely responsive, smooth and with amazing braking when paired with a good set of carbon pads. I've ridden mines for over 2000kms and their performance in all conditions is superb!!!
@@asonofdorn8442 As they're carbon-spoked wheels, they're very stiff and less compliant than the average carbon wheelset, so keep this in mind if this is not what you want. Such wheels aren't for everybody.
@@82vitt that’s a fact, but the guy commented “in all conditions” I am not pro disc, but I had a couple of events where rain and that’s was a bit difficult
My experience with rim wear is quite different. In the bad old days, I would get about 6,000 miles of bicycle commuting in Seattle before wearing an aluminum rim out. Then there is the lovely oxidized aluminum goo that gets all over the rim, tire, bike, and my hands and clothes when I have to fix a flat. No thanks! If I didn't have a lot of riding in the rain, sure, rim brakes would be fine.
Exactly, my Urban bike with v-brakes that gets me to all road and conditions, have very fast wear off the rims, less than 2 years i already have to change the rims, and the pads too, have to change every 2 or 3 months, the argument of cheaper maintenance don't suit on me
Interesting experience. I have been commuting in seattle for most of my life as well, on alu rims. Never had any oxide buildup on the rims. Running Koolstop salmon pads meant that I have still yet to wear out a single rim. What pads are you using?
But my mileage on this bike is also very high, aprox. 6000 to 8000km a year sometimes i ride through some dirt wet roads, most off the wear off the pads and rims occur on these days
customer friend is training hard & preparing for the UAE end-to-end ride. his SRAM DUB BB is worn out, his disc brake pads and rotors are worn out. he's a triathlete & German(strong legs). it has cost him USD440 to replace the 2 rotors, pads and BB. this is his 2nd pad change in a year. what an expensive mess we've created. i use either Swissstop Black Prince or Dura Ace pads on my rim-brake bikes(i have 9). a pack of pads (F & R) are MAXIMUM USD55/-. I've bought the last of the Giant TCR Advanced SL framesets in a rim brake version and built her up to 6.6kg including all mounts and tubular alloy wheels which i built myself using Bitex RAR/RAR12 hubs, Sapim Race Spokes and Kinlin TB20 rims.
This was very informative. Did you see Wout Van Aert's rear wheel lock out at yesterday's Vuelta race? Your video is spot on. I bought a gravel bike with SRAM 1x Apex system in January, I already had to replace one thru-axle due to the constant cleaning of the rotors and pads. Maybe I should go and buy a bike with canti brakes.
I think for gravel it might be the best option to use disc, but you will have to put up with the normal disc issues. I have a canti gravel bike. It’s fine for my needs. Thank you for your comment. 🙂👍🏻
Well my next bike is going to be a rim brake one just like the other road bikes I have. Makes sense for off-road, not road bikes. Another great video Reginald!
@@paulgaida2601 Reg is the one who inspired me to build a rim brake bike! I really hope that the bike industry resurrect the rim brake. We the cyclists should be the ones to design and make road bikes. Unfortunately the industry are not cyclists and only interested in profits. They hire some idiots to mass produce shit bikes!
@@reginaldscot165 oh, I always choose the more complex difficult way as long as it makes better results, just like how Litespeed artisans also choose the difficult method to create more sophisticated frames! I actually do see the place for disk brakes in some cycling applications, but not necessarily in road bikes. for me, disk brakes makes sense for cyclocross races, self supported ultra distance racing with bags and bigger tires, and for any extreme stuff.
Sometimes this feels a little like football vs fútbol. It's like two different games. Which one do you like to play? The disc brake game is fun on rainy days, long days in the dirt and mud, and whenever I want to run fat tires beyond 48mm. Otherwise, gimme some good sidepulls and a good fit and I'm happy.
the most in depth video about this topic, well done! And everything you said is totally in line with my experience. BTW: the best rim brake pads I know are the Campagnolo red pads for carbon - the braking with them simply is phenomenal, with DT-Swiss carbon wheels and even more with Campagnolo carbon wheels. Braking in the rain is equally good as in dry conditions - very much recommended!
discs brakes: stop better in all weather, no issues with carbon rims and allows wider tyres. Only downside is cost but that is a road thing as hydros can be bought cheaply on flat bars. old fuddy duddies can just GTF
You into MTB? I think you don’t fully realise the massive technological gap between disc for MTB and road. For MTB they make sense, but on road, not only are they under sized (poor heat dissipating, especially when considering the extreme speeds reached by road bikes) but are overpowered for the size or road tyres. The lack of suspension unlike on a MTB really doesn’t help the cace for road disc.
@@reginaldscot165 no issue with 160 F&R on my road bike. Road riding isn't the same as mountain biking. sure a 180 mm front would be nice but not required. As for technology, its the same although my MTB has bigger 4 pot calipers.
Much will come down to wheels and tyre clearance for me. If I can find a lightweight deep section rim with an aluminium brake track and clearance for 28mm tyres, that’s a winner. Mavic came close a few years ago with their Cosmic Pro Carbons.
Aside from the HED wheels mentioned, you should look into modern carbon fiber rims, which use higher Tg resins and sometimes with additives so the heat issue isn't a problem like it was 10 years ago. Also, you have grooved brake tracks which aid with wet braking. A lot has changed since the early days of carbon rims.
Very well done! This is definitely the most thorough and exhaustive analysis I have seen on the subject of rim v disc. I can't think of anything you overlooked. Although the distinction between the two systems is defined as "rim" versus "disc", the engineering reality is that a "rim" is just a big "disc". This usually stumps the disc brake fanatics for at least 20 or 30 seconds. If riders can't live without 10x stopping power or have low grip strength, they can simply use hydraulic rim callipers. Also, I have a set of Zipp 404 carbon tubular race wheels from 2005 with at least 50,000 miles on them - using Campag pads. I have been waiting for them to "burn through" for many years now, just so I could repair the brake track using some high temp epoxy resin I have on hand. I expect the very expensive resin may expire before I get a chance to use it! Finally, it would be interesting to see your analysis into the demise of tubulars versus clinchers. In my view, this is a similar marketing debacle albeit for a different set of reasons. Cheers/
Unfortunately I left a few points out of the video because it was getting too long and I didn’t think people would watch a hour long video on this subject. But looking at the responses maybe I was wrong! 😅
100% agree. Glad i don't have to work with so called modern bikes. Rim for the win. Never had a problem with rim brakes. Modulation is spot on, great feed back. Reginald do a QR vs boost wheel crap, more shit.
Well, let us agree on the fact that rim brakes just break like shit unter most circumstances. When it is wet for example. Also it is a pain in the ass to set them up correctly for me. The disc breaks just do their job for ever. They don't have to stop a car or motorcylce! And about the weight: if the bike is too heavy, in fact it is probably you (and all the water bottles).
For me, the only real advantage is that inner width in disc brake wheels, is bigget than rim brakes wheels. A frame with dual pivot rim brakes (rear not under the crankset) is the best.
As much as I hate passionately disc brakes, I do like the fact that I can put a wide wheel with a fat tire on my gravel bike or a carbon race wheel, and I do this all the time. On a pure road bike, disc brakes are an insanity.
@@reginaldscot165 I think if you want wider tyres on your bike it is nice to have the option, regardless of the reason. Maybe you trust what the wheel companies are saying, that they are faster, maybe you like a softer ride, maybe you do a bit of gravel with your road bike, it really doesn't matter...
@@reginaldscot165current dura ace rim brakes barely squeeze in 30s. And I mean really barely. 30 isn't even the biggest size used in the TDF, so yeah you might have a use case for a road bike where a few extra mm would be appreciated
Wow, that's quite a video. My first bike has a coaster brake, my second bile has rim brakes, because I figured if the pads, or something else, failed on them, I could get the parts and fix it myself, which you mention in the video. I really didn't even know about the rest of the advantages and disadvantages. Would have saved me some thought if I saw this video a six months ago. I am going to buy a Summer bike in a few months, and after watching this video I think I will stick with the rim brakes for that one as well. Thanks.
Excellent video - 100 percent agree with your comments a -heck my fat ass got a top 10 KoM on one of the most ridden long DH's in Canada with RIM BRAKES. The amount of issues I have had with Dura-ace level discs and the costs of trying to fix it was insane. I currently run a Lightbicycle rim frame with Ultegra and roval rim carbon wheels - it is twice the bike of my DA Cervelo R5. So I am with you, BUT some points: - RIM cannot run tubeless nor anything over a 30 for the crap roads we have in Canada (freeze thaw...) - RIM impacted by wheel trueness - Easier to have clean cable lines with disc and when you do with rim - you compromise on the quality of breaking when you move away for calipers - for looks - I give it to DISC - Aero -RIM - to add to your points Hambini points out the dirty air a disc creates as it rotates - The comparison test you showed was with tecktro brakes and different tire sizes - I would ignore that. A true test would be with a bike with Ultegra 8000 Discs and Calipers -exact same group level and very common. Tires would be 28's GP5000'S with tubes for both - very common Disc or Rim. I just might do that. -TRI-Omega -they are selling their product - not an independent verification . -Hand fatigue - DISC are better on long descents. As you pointed it - probability of crashing due to messed up braking due to mental fatigue on long descents - DISC also -Ease of routing cables - Disc does better with tight bends.... -The reasons why DISC is perceived as better- Don't forget industry marketing - remember when front wheel drive came out? You are likely too young... We have a 1700 m climb outside my front door - the discs are always rubbing on it.......... It is so annoying - I sold the bike! Loved watching this - my next bike is RIM
I agree that bike companies should do more to maintain a rim brake offering with their models. I personally run/prefer discs and by knowing how to service my bikes properly, have no problems with maintenance or its costs. What I don’t get, is how those who are upset about the depreciation of rim options often feel the need to shit on discs? The fight shouldn’t be against discs by arguing over the pros and cons, it should be with the manufacturers who are railroading things. Two wrongs don’t make a right….
I agree that manufacturers (and the idiots who believe the marketing) are responsible and mostly to blame. However I’m not s-ing on disc as such, I’m pointing out flaws in the system that make it inferior to rim on ROAD BIKES. I don’t for a second believe it have no useful applications and if I was buying a MTB or gravel bike I’d get disc in a heartbeat.
Amazing! Fantastic video! I am still with my rim brakes and started finally feeling old fashioned. Now I realized I am avantgarde💪 Thank you for all the details and the provided knowledge.
I've had 8 bikes in my life, 2 with backpedal brakes, 2 with rim brakes, 4 with disc brakes. And the bikes with rim brakes have been the only 2 with inconsistent and insufficient (read dangerous) braking. I have one of them now, and if something happens to it, I'm not getting another one with rim brakes. I've had enough of it. Cool video though.
It’s funny because I get comments from people who say literally the opposite to you. 🤷🏻♂️ 😁 Not saying you aren’t telling the truth, it’s just funny. 🙂
Another point about braking that's not mentioned enough is that not only is the braking force limited by tire grip, unless you are practiced in emergency braking, i.e. leaning all the way back, you can't come close to that limit anyway. So your average Joe who's not into the performance aspect of cycling may think that you get more power with disc brakes with less effort. However, if he can only make use of, say, 75% of the tire's grip because he doesn't lean his weight back, the only thing he has accomplished is making it easier to go over the bars with an accidental handful of brake. This is not even mentioning the fact that a lot of more casual cyclists are scared to touch the front brake and *only* use rear brake, which right off the bat makes most of the tires' grip inaccessible.
@@reginaldscot165 absolutely:- mountain biking ( downhill racing) has taught me the importance of body positioning on the bike when hitting brakes in an emergency. Having predictable braking is key to successful stopping. ( without falling- or maybe just scrubbing your speed ) I have never regretted changing front rim braking to disc brakes !
Nah, that limit is much closer than you think if you travel fast, especially down hill, and cornering. In motor sport this is called the "friction circle". All the cornering force and braking force are all coming from the friction force of the tyre. As well-educated high-schoolers like all of us, we know that force is a vector and has a direction, when adding forces we have to do it the vector way. Because the cornering force is always perpendicular to where you are going, and the breaking force is always opposite to where you are going, so you have F_cornering^2 + F_breaking^2 = F_tyre^2. You are OK if your combined force is smaller than the friction limit of the tyre. But once you reach that F_tyre_max point, you can only trade cornering force with braking force. You can draw a circle with the r=F_tyre_max and every point within that circle represents a possible force combination. In short, when cornering hard, your limit of braking friction is much less than when going straight. You might account that friction limit much easier than you think. Just watch any of the pro road races, pros are crashing with all kinds of weird tyre slipping in the corners. They don't lack any kind of skill and tech, but they still flying straight to the road rails so often. You might argue that they ride much faster than us, but no, when cornering they are not that much faster than a lot of experienced amateurs, and they are not even applying near maximum braking force because all they need is to slow down, but not to a complete stop. You'll see what will happen if an emergency stop is what you wanted. That's why all of the cornering tutorials say "brake BEFORE entering the corner, and when in the corner you should NOT brake". Because only when going straight your braking efficiency is maximized so you can get that correct speed asap, and when in the corner because you have to share your braking force with cornering force, you either risk a slippage with braking or have to lose direction (going over the center line) to avoid that to reduce the speed. Plus the pros are about 30kg or 30%~40% lighter than us, and the force F=m*a. So you'll see how low your limit is applied here. Actually when I'm descending a mountain, especially when I was 95KG and on 25mm Conti GP5K at 95 psi, I can feel that slippage at almost every corner when you approach there. It's very much like when riding on ice and you'll know/feel the point before a real slippage. From all above I actually came up with the opposite view that disc brake is not necessary. Though when I started riding bikes it's already disc brakes (XC and road), and I thought it's just superior than rim brakes because... it just looks obvious. Until when I actually ride some rim brake "legacy" bikes, and it shocked me that it's surprisingly good that I don't even feel a practical difference on them. I get your idea that you think the grip limit is high, so whatever can exchange kinetic energy to heat faster wins. But in my feel the grips are actually quite low. No matter if you are on rim brake or disc brake, you are almost always easily approaching that point. So whatever system you are on doesn't matter.
@@xuchenglin6256 I'm afraid you've gone through all that effort without really understanding the point I was trying to make. People are rightfully saying that braking is limited by tire grip, but they are forgetting about technique. I'm strictly talking about braking in a straight line in the dry. In this scenario it's basically going to be impossible to skid your front tire, meaning that the limiting factor is your emergency braking technique (assuming non-crap brakes/pads). In this scenario, it doesn't matter how powerful your brakes are because if you don't lean all the way back, you'll be limited to (for example) .75 * F_tire_max. All I'm saying is that someone who hasn't practiced their technique has only made it easier for themselves to go over the bars because of the extra mechanical advantage they have on the brakes. So before one goes out and buys a disc brake bike thinking they need more braking power, they should work on their technique first. Cornering and riding in the wet is a tangential point.
Great work. In-depth analysis on each point.👍 Just wanted to add 1 more point in favour of rim brake. Servicing headset bearings is much easier in rim brakes as compared to H-disc brake bikes. Since the H- disc lines are internally routed to make them aero.
I just thought I knew all the differences between the two systems, not. My last disc brake bike always had that rotor rub/squeak and I was always adjusting the calipers to no avail. Just built up a new rim frameset with Ultegra recently and I have yet to adjust or hear any rubbing whatsoever. But it seems as if the disc guys look down on me now, LoL!?
Great presentation on Rim vs Disc. How about a comparison of tube tires vs tubeless tires. . .. I view both market changes as simply a money grab. I have more than 40 years of cycling. All changes I have witnessed are nothing more than a money grab.
The cycling industry (specifically the rim manufacturers) make far less $ from disc brake users due to rims not being destroyed every year or so in wet environments.
Very interesting breakdown. A big breakthrough for me as a rim brake user was dura ace callipers bought 2nd hand for a fraction of the new price and shimano r22 c+1 pads which have a softer compound. The modulation, breaking power and predictability in all conditions is great. I cannot justify buying a new bike and don’t want to commit to disc especially when the 2nd hand market for rim brake bikes is full of some real bargains. The same can be said for 2 piece bar and stem external and semi-internal routing setups. Cheers
Don't forget, Reg is coming at this topic from the perspective of a bike mechanic 😇 You may think he is biased, but he IS telling you that he spends much more time dealing with DISC brake bikes, He is expressing they are "pain in the ass" set up taking the majority of his time. Keep your Disc brakes if you like. I've got 30,000 miles on a singular pair of carbon Rims - replaced the pads once (70 Kilos). Carbon rims don't wear out. I always thought Disc brakes were a way to "churn" the market for new money. Mechanic at my own bike shop says he will never move to disc. Cheers to Reg. 🖤
Thank you for your understanding. Yes it’s true, many of the people who love disc say “why would I care an the maintenance? I just sent them to the bike shop?” 😅
Lots to unpack here, much of it seems to driven by mechanical incompetency. For anyone who rides in rainy and gritty conditions, rim brakes are simply inferior. The best part about moving to discs is that I don't have to clean out my pads 3x per week, replace rims every 10,000 miles, and replace cables 2x per year. Oh, and find me a rim brake racing bike that clears 32mm tires. I still regularly ride a rim brake bike as well, but to pretend like they are better is a shit take.
What kind of goon wants a road “race bike” that runs 32mm tyres! 😂 Is it a race or are you going touring? Don’t tell me you think fatter tyres are faster? 😅 Try waxing your cables! Replacing them 2x a year is ridiculous. 😆
@@reginaldscot165 The kind of goon who lives somewhere with bad pavement! Look at the tire clearance that they're building in to many on the newer racing bikes, it's obviously something that many consumers are interested in. I've waxed brake cables in the past and it honestly didn't make a difference, there's just too much road grit here.
@@reginaldscot165 It has become pretty clear over the last few years that wider tyres have much better rolling resistance on real pavement. The push for smaller and smaller tyres came from "lab research" under very nurealistic circumstances. 32C has great performance compared to 25C.
Great video, I agree with all you have said. Good to see I am not the only one who cannot follow the marketing. I'm a bike mechanic and have made the switch to disc a few years ago after believing the hype, but now years later I am back riding on rim bikes. Disc is not for me I guess.
Brilliant! By far the most comprehensive comparison Rim vs. disc brakes. Two things i found especially remarkable: First one is the fact that the hydraulic cables deliver no „brake feedback“ in your fingers, which reminds me of electronic shifting: There is also no feedback whatsoever from the derailleurs when „clicking“ your lebers to shift. Wheras in my mechanical systems i get a distinctive feedback esp. from the rear derailleur when pulling the cable. I can even make up for the „not-so-perfect-gear-shifts“ by pulling the lever a bit harder in order to make the chain jump up the next cog easier. So i am „feeling“ the mechanical process. Whereas in hydraulic braking and electronic shifting i am kind of „separated from the procedure. I am only allowed to „place an order“ but i am not really taking part in the process anymore. - Secondly when i hear you (Reginald) saying that there have been a lot of pros losing their brake pads completely in long/steep descents, that would provide another reason why lately quite many pro riders have fatal accidents in the mountains (e.g. the Alps). There was poor Gino Mäder in 2023, this year it was another pro rider dying in a descend in Austria. Until now i thougt the reason may have been hideous tubeless tyres on „hookless“ rims, but no we have to take worn out or overheated disc brake pads into consideration. Very strangely nowadays nothing is reported anymore about the circumstances or reasons of those accidents. It is just said: „You see, going downhill in the high mountains is just dangerous!“ Which explains nothing.
That’s so true! I feel like I’m going crazy because it looks like a cover up to me. All the footage of people crashing on disc breaks in the tour gets scrubbed. You wouldn’t believe how difficult it is to find clips, all those crashes that we remember seeing on TV just suddenly disappear off TH-cam. You can’t even search them by name, like even if you put in the name of the rider and the date of the race and the location you still can’t hunt down the clip you’re looking for. It doesn’t end there, famously Richard Branson had a crash when both his disc brakes failed on a long descent, originally it was all over the newspapers and online, all the articles mentioned he had disc brakes, because at the time it was something new. Now if you go back and try to find the same articles nowhere does it mention his breaking type! 😱
@@reginaldscot165 I am not claiming that disc brakes were (totally/solely) at fault, but I do wonder if they had anything to do with WVA crashing out of the Vuelta while holding both the mountain and points jerseys. There might be certain times/specific slick road conditions when one does not want their "instantaneous, 'superior', un-godly braking power"
@@reginaldscot165 the Madone aero rim brakes were appalling, should never have been legal. That marked the beginning of the end of rim brakes as aero started to take over in frames. Look at the new Colnago rim brake C68. It’s heavier than the disc version. The aero mods to frame shapes mean that using discs is less of a penalty- the forks are already reinforced. But each to their own. If a properly aero and light rim brake frame emerges from somewhere, I won’t shy away from it. At present a Supersix evo 6kg rim brake bike gets left for dust on descents compared to a modern frame. I see it daily.
@@SteveThompson-qt8wi as do I boss [own both]. And here’s the thing, you’re free to prefer what you prefer, as am I. I think the point that should be made is that consumers can no longer choose. We live in a new form of communism, where the producer, not the consumer, decides what you must buy. Cars exactly the same, phones the same, tvs. That should be the point, not rim v disc. Both should be available with continued innovation and improvements. But that’s not the case. If rim brake frames remained modern, I’d probably never have switched. But the aero can’t be ignored out on the road for anyone riding at decent speeds (i.e. 40km/h on the flat when riding zone 2)
@@Tommy31416exactely, well spoken. It s not like we really have to choose how we option our cars/bikes. We option with what they give us a list of options, otherwise, the small displacement engines 3 cyl were in the trash for a long time😊
Brilliant! I can only remember a few incidents where heat build-up in mechanical brake/aluminium rim wheels was an issue. One that stands out was a tandem without a rear 'drag brake' (usually drum, sometimes disc) where the heat from braking on a long descent caused the tire to blow off the rim. From that lesson we concluded that tandems equipped only with rim brakes were probably not the best choice for the average users of tandem bikes. I was employed at the time at a dealer of Santana tandems, and also worked with Rodney Moseman, a respected custom frame builder who specialized in tandems. (BTW: 45+ years spent working in bicycle shops, plus stints with Mavic, SunRace and Bianchi USA, in case you're wondering).
This video really is very comprehensive and fully confirms what I’ve always believed that rim brakes are the best. I’ll not be changing to disk brakes anytime soon and the advice to try out cheap Chinese carbon wheels makes infinite sense.
Thank you, yes I really don’t see the point in carbon rims that cost more than the bike! Which brings me onto one question, the chemical composition of carbon rims for rim breaks must be why more advanced than for disc, because no breaking surfaces? So why are the disc rims so expensive?
There's a common fallacy being repeated ad nauseum ... " Chinese made products are rubbish ".. Not necessarily, as a musician I've played Chinese made guitars from Eastman which are excellent instruments.. Bike wise, it comes down to research on reputation & feedback to know who to buy from & who not to buy from... Reality is there's junk made in Europe as well as stateside so Caveat Emptor always rules..
@@marcstreiff6067 I recall as a kid in the 60s all Japanese products were categorized as rubbish. Even at that age I could appreciate the workmanship of a Hero fountain pen. Nobody rubbishes Japanese products these days. In my personal experience Chinese products are similar, they can be both fantastic or really rubbish. It depends what you’re buying and from which company. Lower tier companies should be avoided and it’s far better to pay a bit more to get the best quality
This video was well done. You will get a lot of views with this one. It may convince manufacturers to give consumers the choice of rim brakes. In the interim, my old 30+ year old bike works fine with rim brakes.
@@reginaldscot165 Ah, and therein lies the problem. You could 10 more videos like this one, but the truth is, for mid to upper level bikes, you no longer have a choice. It's disc, like it or not.
@@b1blancer1 Even the bottom bicycles sold are almost all disc brakes. It kind of makes one ponder about how choices are made as to what will be sold. All these comments in favor of rim brakes. So,......I wonder if disc brakes have taken over the bike market to help the manufacturers make more money and they are not responding to consumer demand.
I would be lying if I said I didn't love my Tarmac SL6 (disc), but the disc brakes do annoy me. I barely had to do anything with my rim brake bikes...my usual workout ride that I do multiple times a week is only ~18 miles, but climbs ~2500ft. Technically all the climbing is done in 12 miles, 6 miles is just the ride home which is all downhill. I don't ride slow downhill, I bomb the hill and hit 50 mph almost every time (depending on wind), but this descend includes two very hard 180* turns which require me to slow to ~12mph to complete the turn safely. I ONLY brake to turn, I don't touch my brakes on a normal curvy descent, I have the KOM, which is over multiple pro riders on this particular descent lol. Every-single-time I descent, my discs rub. It's SO ANNOYING. Yeah, it will go away in about 20 seconds when the rotors cool down after the turn, but many times I have to mess with the brakes by engaging/disengaging them multiple times because it will cause a slight rub. This is also with the most expensive shimano pads, and the XTR rotors that are currently $70-80 a piece.
I watched the whole video, one word wise! Great great job. Everyone that drove both systems knows the truth IF use their own head to think and trust their own feelings. Despite big companies production, at least all main elite frames producers keep offering rim brakes bikes.
Congratulations my friend. This is indeed the ultimate comparison video....and so truth...!!!! I would like to add that another advantage is their much better sensitivity and this is due to the geometry and larger diameter of the wheel than the brake disc
The pro peleton is a showcase of carbon and discs as well as other useless technologies, purely for the potential of tremendous profits being made selling cheap plastic bikes with heavy steel parts. I ride a Reynolds 725 Steel Wabi singlespeed with rim brakes and a big smile. This is possible for me because at 77 I don't salute or bend over for a false image.
1. Price. You're right in general but missing details and cherry-picking facts. Pads are similarly priced. Look up K05 (no fins, 8 EUR on b24) and L05 (with fins 13 EUR on b24). Also you shouldn't just assume that shifters are more expensive as they are literally the same on mechanical disc systems, which are often found on entry level bikes. As per hoses/housing - no difference on mech disc. On a hydraulic system I've never had to actually replace a hose. Replacing housings, however, is part of regular rim brake maintenance. So hydro is more expensive to setup but cheaper to maintain. Fluid cost is a non-issue you only need a minuscule amount of it! 1L will literally last you a lifetime, even if you own multiple bikes, and chances are you already have some if you own an MTB. And come on dude, try to retain some credibility. How do you even start comparing rotor wear (showing the price for a really expensive one on screen) to rim wear (singling out the cheapest possible AL rim)? There's obvious bias in your presentation. Even the cheapest rotors do a great job and you will almost never have to replace them (easily last for years). When it comes to rims, you kind of want to have good (think expensive) ones and you're saying it's OK to turn them into consumables? It's the hardest thing to replace at home, too. Almost nobody will be able to rebuild their wheel, so add some good cash that goes to the LBS for that job. Swapping a rotor, in contrast, only requires a cassette or BB tool and no particular expertise. It feels that the example for high running costs you gave is carefully cherry-picked. I've had the opposite experience with wear. Never had to change a rotor (or rim) in my life, only wore through ONE set of disc brake pads over 4500 km with 60000 m of elevation in a steep Norway with rainy conditions and some extra luggage on my bike. In comparison, a lighter bike setup on a shorter ( 1000 km ) and flatter trip through France also burnt through ONE set of pads (rim brake, pads that were supposed to work in wet conditions at the cost of longevity). 2. Weight - rim brakes all the way, agreed. 3. Wasting viewers' time. 4. Aero - I'm not an aero expert, but it feels that rim brakes should win this one. Agreed. 5. Maintenance - now that's where disc brakes won me over. Fit and forget. Bleed once a year (less than 50 ml oil is enough, and yes - it is messier). Swapping components is easy. Once setup properly, they are always consistent. Rim brakes, on the other hand... I really wanted my rim brake bike to stop well so I spent a week researching the Internet on how to achieve this. Turns out I had to keep the cables and housings fresh and new (again yearly cycles), take particular care that housings are routed without sharp turns, regularly readjust the cable tension to compensate for pad wear, setup the pads at an angle, adjust the calipers so that both pads contact the rim simultaneously (tricky as they do NOT move the same way when you pull the cable, Ultegra 6800 here), keep an eye out that they don't start coming in contact with my tyre when they start wearing, lube all pivot points of the caliper, and most of all - ALWAYS keep the rims perfectly true. In which world is that a simpler system? There are so many more variables. It's only simpler to people with "experience" where experience actually means they know the particular system, have habits, and are not eager to learn new tricks. At the end of the day the disc brakes still performed better than my Ultegra rim brakes, and way better than my older Tiagras. The levers there are just so much harder to squeeze. 6. Convenience - what???? Every single time you take a wheel on/off your rim brake caliper goes out of alignment unless you deflate the tyre. Disc brakes are consistent. Just keep a pair of cardboard pieces to put between the pads. Comparing pad compounds is also a one-sided research it seems. Rim brake pads also exists in many more variants than aluminium or carbon-compatible. How about for wet and dry conditions, for starters? Also, how TF do you fly to have to disconnect hydraulic lines? Please enlighten me as I've only been on 3 continents so far and I've obviously been doing it wrong. They won't let me go to Australia if I don't learn. You're just squeezing water out of stone here... 7. Frame design is something I know nothing about so I'm in the dark here. 8. Wasting more viewer time. 9. Wet braking - Disc brakes (even the cheapest ones) win hands down based on experience with 5 bikes - 2 rim and 3 disc brake ones, thousands of kms on each. In the dry they're evenly matched. The discs only have better modulation, but that not that essential. And you can always play with stopping power going up or down a rotor size. On rims, it is what it is. For the record, I have to squeeze my Tiagra levers to the bars (and to the point when the levers themselves flex) to lock a wheel with a grippy tire. I'd much rather not have that tension through my arms and keep them loose to descend more safely. Did you really end your video suggesting that one should replace their rim brake pads or rims altogether? You just bashed disc brakes for solving pad contamination by replacing them a few minutes ago and talked a whole lot about costs. What happened to 20 EUR rims? The DT Swiss PR1400 OXIC wheelset you recommend comes at a RRP of 1150 EUR!!! And finally, heating, is probably more prevalent on disc brakes, but worse on rim brakes. You somehow conveniently forgot to mention the issues that come with rim brakes. Some light TPU tubes are rated for disc brake use ONLY as heated rims can cause them to burst. That's anecdotally happened to the thinnest and lightest butyl tubes as well. On carbon rims, heat building up in the braking track has been known to cause delamination (irreversible damage) to the rims. Bottom line: from my point of view, both systems obviously work, and I own bikes with rim as well as disc brakes, but I simply find disc brakes easier to use and to maintain at a point where they work well enough at all times (even a contaminated system often performs up to par and it's even self-cleansing at times). They also give me the freedom to splurge on wheels without feeling bad about it. I find both systems cheap enough to maintain. I don't enjoy riding my rim brake bike in the rain, especially on commutes, as it prolongs my reaction time in urban conditions and is hence less safe. Oh, yes, and I find the video to be somewhat biased and self-contradictory at times.
Ok so their Is obviously too much here to answer. I am also not sure how much of the video you understood as you seem confused by a number of points. Often you take a point I made, run with it in the wrong direction and then argue against that rather than the point I actually made. 🤷🏻♂️ So firstly about the DT Swiss Oxic, that’s literally the best aluminium wheel set ever made. So yes the price is high, but there are other cheaper options available. You seem to have searched for the most expensive price you could fine. I did a 10 second search on googling and the first result was “bike 24” and they are selling at 48% off. About €500. So yeah… go find a disc brake wheel set that light with a DT Swiss 46T 240 hub for that price and let me know. About replacing the rim and pads, you are being disingenuous. What I said was, If your rim brakes aren’t working (stopping you effectively) then try changing the pads. (That’s way lower cost than disc) and if your rims are “worn out” then get some better rims. Anyway, to your points: 1. You are cherry picking and being disingenuous again. It’s like you have really bad selective hearing? I compared expensive rotors to carbon rims. That’s a fair comparison. I also said “if” you have aluminium rims… and went on to talk about that. It’s not the same as me saying “the Dura ace rotor is way more expensive than this $20 aluminium rim.” I didn’t say that, it’s all in your head buddy. Next is this thing about comparing mechanical shifters with mechanical shifters that you go on about? 🤷🏻♂️ I’m comparing the cost of rim mechanical Vs disc hydraulics. There wouldn’t be any point in comparing the cost of a disc mechanical shifter because as you rightly pointed out it’s the same thing. But everyone knows that already so it would be a waste of time. Even then the brake calliper at the end and the rotors are still more expensive than the rim equivalent. 2. Good. 3. That’s your opinion. And only Your opinion. That’s why I put time stamps for you to skip ahead. The fact you watched it shows you are A) not observant enough to see that I included time stamps. B) you wanted to hear that section. Thus proving it was a relevant section. 4. Good. 5. I have lived in the very wet and cold environment of the UK midlands and now in very hot and humid rainforest location near the sea and in both environments my rim brake maintenance consists of: washing my bike and cleaning the pads off with a file after the wash. 2 or 3 strokes does it. That’s it. I have never needed to change a cable because of damage or rust in nearly 30 years. If you have issues try using aluminium segmented cable housing like I do and wax your cable before installing it. 6. It seems to me that yes you lack experience (that’s not a criticism) The fact that somehow you knock your brake pads out of line every time you take your wheels out says to me the issue might be with you? Even if the rim brakes do come out of line it takes 2 seconds to realign. Literally put the wheel in and move the brake with your hand. It takes significantly longer to straighten a disc rotor. 🤦🏻♂️ Yes I work with a number of customers bikes and there are 100s of systems. And believe it or not when bikes are packed for shipment/travel many require the hydraulic lines to be disconnected and plugged. On your bike maybe you don’t need to, that’s great. But that’s not everyone. 7. You don’t need to be an expert, just look at the frame and use logic. 👍🏻 8. Same answer to the last time. Your opinion, not a fact, so skip it if you want. 9. I disagree that the modulation is better on disc. I already stated why in the video. Again, if you are squeezing your lever all the way to the bar on your tiagra then it sounds like the brakes are set up wrong/poorly. This would be in keeping with some of the other comments you have made. I think you need to ask assistance from someone who knows how to service your brakes correctly. A lot of your problems can be solved.
Found this vid by accident through the suggestion list on the right. So glad I did. I have 5 bikes ranging from a MkI Specialized Roubaix, a 2007 Mechanical Disc road tourer, and 3 hydro disc MTBs. I've been off riding for 3-4 years, and have recently come back through adding a (UK legal) mid-drive e-bike kit to the tourer for commuting (and hopefully) bikepacking again. Whilst fitting and testing the tourer, I noticed the old BB7 mechanicals were perishing at the plastic bushings, so I ordered a new pair and up-sized the rotors by 20mm to counter the added motor and battery weight. So far, so good. All done and I'm off. I got the rest of the bikes out of the shed this week to fettle the Roubaix (and the GFs Trek road) for a ride with the GF after being inspired by using the tourer again. All 3 hydro MTBs had brakes that were either seized, leaking, squealing or had ineffective flapping levers. They are going to cost a packet to service. I can do most of it myself though. Either that or they are all going mechanical disc (except maybe the free-ride bike). Both rim brake road bikes: not a thing wrong. Re-centred the callipers to the rims and that was it. Perfectly effective braking from the off. Never had road hydros, but after watching this vid, I doubt I ever will. I even had an e-bike forum to-and-fro with a guy trying to convince me cable-pull hydros were the way to go with the tourer, but the stopping power I get with the mechanical discs is by far enough. Any more may lay me flat on the road this winter. And the thought of doing roadside repairs to a hydro system are unthinkable. Cheers Reginald. Liked. Commented. And subscribed.
@@hooiken, @paterjan9733 We rode horses before, doesn't mean it was better in all conditions. You clearly never rode carbon rim brakes downhill when wet vs discs.
Riding down a hill in the Coromandel Peninsula in NZ, 500 metres to sea level: it was about 15 years ago, V Brakes and Cool Stop pads, but my hands cramped up from prolonged braking, necessitating a controlled lateral stop. My subsequent experience with discs is great modulated stopping power for much less force.
Never drag your brakes, disk or rim. Get some coaching on how to descend properly 😉. If your hands are cramping, your not doing it properly 😮 Dragging your brakes eventually means they won’t work due to overheating. Same as in a car really. If you can’t stop, it’s a bit dangerous!
@@KeithRobertson57 It's call kanes braking guys. I hope you all learnt this on your driving test. Works on all brakes and all vehicles, even bicycles. I have car, motorbike, hgv c +E. Works a dream. Stops over heating and allows for better braking. Basically it's manual ABS done by you👍
the classic issue with rim brakes (long ago) was with the heat causing tubular glue to weaken and for the tire to roll or to slip on the rim and pull the valve stem out. With clinchers, a hot rim can cause the rubber to soften a bit and not grip the rim as well. This can result in the tube pushing the tire out of the way and blowing. As would be expected, this was a bigger concern with tandems than single bikes. Tandems would sometimes combine rim brakes with a rear drum or disk brake.
Absolutely spot on. I started riding in the '80s and raced for many years. I have tried a hybrid with belt drive and disc brakes and, to be honest, the belt drive is very impressive but I hate the discs! All my road brakes are rim braked (including a new Passoni built last year) and virtually everything you have said in your video is replicating what I have told the many people that have criticised me! A couple of extra things though: a bicycle wheel without a disc brake on it is a thing of beauty and surely cycling is all about mechanical stuff...not hydraulics and batteries! 😂 Thanks for posting.
@@reginaldscot165 The Gates is perfect for riding on mud covered winter roads. Ok, the Alfine 11 weighs a ton but it cuts the cleaning duties right down! A bit of a pain if you have a rear wheel puncture though...😂
Rim brakes (on aluminum wheels) are perfect for cyclists. Disc brakes are perfect for bike shops (to keep fixing them, so charge money to cyclists). Opinions written here are function of who post them (cyclist, or bike shop guy). Best video I ever saw on this subject.
You forgot something important - the other end of the braking system. Having extra braking power also means you can achieve the same braking power with less force on the lever. But you need to pair it with good brake modulation, which is one of the benefits of disk brake. It also gives you more freedom in brake lever design. I hear this argument a lot from the "just as good" crowd. Yes, you technically don't need more braking power then your tires can handle. But it's also impossible to make a good and short one finger brake lever for a mountain bike if you don't have enough braking power at the wheel end of the system.
@@marcdaniels9079 Not a troll. 100% backed by several studies, look up in pubmed "Examining the association between grip strength and testosterone" Hao-Tse Chiu et al. Aging Male. 2020 Dec
@@marcdaniels9079 pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31267800/ I have no trouble locking up rim brakes with normal testosterone levels. Suggest eating more protein, avoiding xeno/phytoestrogens, lifting weights, speaking to beautiful women, cross training in a combat sport. All proven to raise test. Over assisted hyd brakes will be unnecessary.
And, don’t forget, situating the front brake at the front wheel axle turns the forks into a lever and the fulcrum of that lever is right at the bottom of the the head tube and steerer, hence the constant problem with forks snapping unless you fit an asymmetrical head tube (thicker at the bottom) - extra design problems and re-engineered headsets. Cheers and thanks for a great video.
@@FrankJohnson-r3e I've been a diehard disc brake guy... but idk now, rim brakes are sounding good again. It's the maintenance, the squeaking, and how easily pads/rotors are completely ruined by an accidental spray of the wrong kind.
@@b1blancer1 in that case then, I'm SO glad I got my Masi Gran Corsa before they effed it up, offering only disc brakes 😊 phew 😅 😉 Used bikes it is from this point forward 👍 check. That is IF I ever need to replace it...BUT, I know, at least Litespeed is still making great bikes with rim brakes 😁😉
I am so tired of all these upgrades and making things more complicated. It’s bad enough you can’t work on the auto anymore, I will not buy another bike I guess, I don’t race anymore so I don’t need all the light crap as well.
2:44 I found most of arguments invalid. Liner and hose: these are bought once, it is not an "on cost". May be you should replace it in about 15 years, due to wear, but for such great period of time the difference between 8 bucks (you need about 2m in total) and 40 is negligible, and I just disregard the fact, that 20$/m is a huge overprice for a hydraulic hose. Pads cost: you just pick one expensive example on a disc brake side - and oh how it is expensive. Of course it is! But there are a bunch of brakes other than ultegra, and pads for them are as much affordable, as rim pads - about 3 to 5 USD for a pair. Fluid and cable: yet again, shimano is overpricing a lot its fluid (and sram does the same), and if you try something else - your warranty is void. However it is possible to find chemically compatible fluids, that are used in cars, and they are about 5-10 times cheaper. Perhaps in about 2-5 years we should find some chinese brakes on market, for which auto-fluids would be totally approved )). And of course you can just use mechanical brakes with the same cables, as rim brakes. So, this argument is partially valid. Rims and rotors: how on earth did you manage to wear out not just one rotor, but a lot of them faster than a rim? I never tried road rotors, maybe they are made of an aluminium foil? Just cant imagine any other valid reason for that fast wearing out. And again, 60 euros for a single rotor is insane price! why just not use mtb compatible design of a hub and mtb rotors? they are affordable and last long enough. And rim wearing is the main point, that makes disc brakes actually cheaper (especially mechs). And about braking force. Applying less force on disc brakes is something, you should be used to, before you will be able to operate them safe and accurate. It is a drawback, and it is an advantage on the other side. (I believe that your brakes totally clamping the rotor before you can feel it is a "bug", maybe air in the system, or something else. Definitely brakes should not behave that way!) Never had hydraulic brakes on a road bike, but on a MTB they allow me to apply just necessary force, I definitely feel how much force is applied to the rotor (and not by the deceleration, it is all on the handle), however it takes a bit of time to get used to the brakes, because forces on the handle are totally different, than on a rim brakes. And I think on a road bike it should be the same way, otherwise tell me what is wrong with a road bikes. And applying less force on a handle is crucial feature, first - it allows you to dose the force more accurately, because you dont need to squish the handle too much (and 70-80% of max force, whis is needed to apply max breaking is too much), and second, your hand will be exposed to less fatigue (again, 70-80% of max force is too much and may cause fatigue issues, if you apply this force too ling or too often or both on a long and steep descent), and with less fatigue you will be able to safely operate the brake for longer. It may happen that you wont be forced to have a 5 minute stop to make your fingers able to move again, because you applied brakes too much and too often on a descent. Finally, I found all af this is still not enough to switch my road bike to a disc version, but I think you have a bit of prejudice against disc brakes, at least in that video. They have their pros and cons, but you should not mix them and make everithing sound like a flaw.
“I never had discs on road bikes only MTB.” Well that’s the end of that argument! 😅 If the cost isn’t a problem why do my “new to disc brake” customers keep complaining about the increased price of parts and services? 😁
@@reginaldscot165 Never said, that I never had discs on a road bike, please dont distort my words. Only tried mechs, not hydraulic. And it still need less force and is faster due to significantly shorter travel distance for pads. And about complaining --- you just do not see the ones, who are not complaining (of course you dont, how should you?) At least TRP spyre parts are not expensive, brakes have zero issues with fluid (because there is no fluid), and service is quite simple. For me its the same complaint as of the owner of unique and rare bike, that compatible parts are expensive and hard to find. Its a pity that shimano is going that way --- but I think you should consider it and take appropriate action (that case --- just stop buying shimano). Again, plenty of affordable brakes and parts on market, its not that its "shimano or nothing".
Those Shimano-Icetech Rotors and Pads are insanely high wear on the rotor and high price on the pad. I would suggest solid 1-piece design Disks like the Trickstuff Daechle HD, or TRP Rotors and some good aftermarket pads. Then you don't burn through several hundred Dollars a year on wear and tear. On the other hand I would trust my Shimano Oil several years until I would change the Oil, unless they need a bleed. Where I have to agree though, is the high price for hydraulic hoses, I had the same issue due to a kink in my Brakeline. However, I had issues with mechanical brake hoses before and much more often.
@@reginaldscot165 You are starting to behave disingenuous here Reg. Every time a commenter comes up with valid criticism you start distorting facts or come with ad hominems. It's almost as if you yourself are trying to push a narrative regardless of facts and data.....
Very well made video. Thanks for making it. You sum my experience with rim vs disc on road bikes. Owned serval. I have spent so much more time and money on trying solve issues with my disc brakes. Thats why went back to rim brake before they were no longer available in the market.
I can't wait for Bluetooth disk e-brakes, lol. and self-driving bikes. and yet the philosophy of the bicycle is "simplicity" and "sustainability", NOT needless "modernization" and reform/ revisionism. I know disk brakes, as i have been riding motorcycles since ..1993 and i am a front brake person (brake with the front / stabilise with the rear) i prefer rim brakes on my under 10kg bicycle. if you watch MotoGP or formula1 you know that most accidents happen because of wrong use of brakes. not that disk brakes are bad, they are pretty good, but even the pros in moto sports lose their cool and create an accident So you really have to know what you are doing. Rim brakes give you a better feeling on braking, rim brakes are just larger disk brakes -better control on breaking. Disk brakes are useful in performance downhill (and only there) where you have the widest tyres (very important) and great acceleration (immensely beyond what any other cyclist experiences). "but if its good for them downhill pros, then its good for me" -NO : you don't want to use a chainsaw to make Sushi fillet You don't wash your teeth with bleach chlorine or maybe you do
FYI, in 2019, Shimano filed a patent for bicycle ABS brakes. They have released "Shimano ABS by Blubrake", now available in Europe for eBikes. I wonder how long it will take for ABS to become yet another gimmick for road bikes ;-)
It doesn't make any sense for them to offer rim brake groupset. If you want to sell something you need to sell as many items as possible. Designing something that only view would buy - no chance.
@@reginaldscot165 Most especially WHEELS which are not a mile wide, and possibly offer a Campy 10 speed compatible freehub along with an carbon aero section combined with an ALLOY braking surface! 😉
Great video and well done for having the courage to entre the debate. Something I believe you did not mention was spoke triangulation and therefore wheel strength. Rim brakes enable a better angle as the hub flanges can be speed further apart and more symmetrical as a disc brake does not need to be accommodated. May be less spokes are neede on a rim brake and a lighter wheel results. Just a thought and would welcome your comment.
Just ride a fixie. No brakes to worry about. Lighter and more aero than rim brakes. No maintenance. No pliers needed. Who needs brakes anyway, they only slow you down right...
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Ahhh I love it! 48 minutes of confirmation bias telling me I was right all along... Enjoyed every minute of it!
Yes you were right. 👍🏻😁
Same here!
I’d totally agree with you, but then we’d both be wrong. 😂
Honesty caught in the wild
MOUNTAIN BIKER"S TAKE: The argument for rim brakes only works for road bikes. I've been trashing trails since the 90's. Every trail ride the rim gets dust, dirt, mud, sand, or snow on them, which effects descents / cornering when using rim brakes. Learning the modulation for each brake is critical to building muscle memory. Once I went to discs, my braking performance and maintenance got 1000x' better. The rim brake during the dry summer months is good, but once the trails get moist...it is mission impossible keeping the grime out of the housing (road grime too). Once grime gets in there, both housing and cable need to replaced. Not to mention the sanding affect on the rims and pads. I have concaved several rims and finding the same sized rim to reuse the spokes is not always easy. And I do clean the braking surfaces after each ride. I think many gravel riders would have a similar opinion. The rough terrain and chain lube is a serious issue too. With the chain bouncing, droplets of lube gets on the rear drive-side rim and causes me to press the lever even harder. Just my experience.
Yeah, I’m only talking about road bikes.
I've had good luck upgrading my MTB's to front disc, while keeping the rear rim brake -- generally works a charm since you don't need as much stopping power on the rear. If you want more, you can always try ceramic rims, and also waxing your chain, which also greatly increases your drivetrain lifespan.
Same for road riding in winter conditions on countries that actually have weather.
I’m on the road 100% of the time, but it’s wet, has mud, gravel, farmyard manure and all sorts on it in UK country lanes.
Dirt and water just make rim brakes a non-argument for year round use on road in any country with variable weather:
- I don’t want to run crappy training wheels for 90% of the year just to save my good carbon rims ‘for best’. With disc I can run good aero wheels 100% of the time.
- The only aero rim brake wheels are carbon. Stopping performance in even light rain is awful, and I’ve been caught out in a rainstorm suddenly having no stopping power and finding myself in a hedge. Why would anyone want to worry about this happening?
- The industry has already decided that disc is the way forward. All the arguments for rim performance being better, lighter etc are void because they don’t even make performance wheels for rim brake any longer. No one is doing R&D for rim wheels because no one is racing them. Disc wheelsets are lighter because all the work is done on making them lighter.
- The pros now use 30-32c tyres routinely for performance reasons, which are too large to even fit on the most recent road rim calipers.
@@reginaldscot165 cyclocross, gravel, rainy geography with 6% hills and passenger vehicles. Not having to question how much material in left in my rim/breaking surface, especially carbon. I'm very thankful for functionality, cost, and orthogonality of disc brakes. +Thru axels!! 😙👌
@@TheWoogerooOn the road 100% of the time? Outstanding skills!
i just returned from the 8th Tour of Asir in Saudi Arabia. i was the main mechanic there. my whole day was spent aligning disc brake calipers& rotors, bleeding Sram and Shimano brakes. i had to carry both bleed kits. couldnt mix Dot and Mineral stuff. punctures galore-we had 32 this year and a really nasty single -rider crash. 67-strong peloton. i had an asst. mechanic. i made sure he had a 6mm Allen key in his pocket for wheel removal and reinstall. brake disc rotors overheating on those long hot descents. brakes squealing and screeching, brake disc rub... God forbid , you accidently touched the rotor while replacing tubes on-the-go(no spare wheels either-there'd be too many to carry due to different types(10s,11s,12s-rim brake,disc brake, different rotor sizes too). lest i forget, rounded off allen key hole on one of the thru-axles, a guy who forgot his axle in Riyadh and we couldn't get the correct thread pitch. he rode the Tour on a borrowed trainer thru-axle which left the trainer extra-long axle ends jutting out on both sides!
It makes me tired and frustrated just reading it. 🫤
@@reginaldscot165 it was hot this year too. Jabal alSouda,was hot this year. It’s the highest peak. The accident that happened, guy hit a cateye while descending. Broke his forks and his head. His Garmin registered 80km/hr at the time of crash.
@@reginaldscot165 lest i forget, one of the riders drove me mad, his bike rattled all the time. i thought that the builder hadn't put in the hose dampening tubes at time of install, checked that-nope. checked the hoses going thru the bars-nope, checked his cages-nope. it turned out to be the thru-axle removable release lever, the head of the axle was getting rounded off due to him constantly taking off rear wheel to put bike on trainer. i took off the lever-totally silent!
Is that you Baba Velo?
Pain in the ass😂
After 50 years in the saddle , I’m sticking with rims , unless I’m mistaken when any mechanical system becomes more complex , your more in the hands of specialists . For most of us , it’s the self maintenance that makes cycling reachable to most people , ultimately more enjoyable & environmently friendly , the more recent “advancements “ have taken that away from most consumers . History might view these advancements in a different light , more of a marketing hype & a step sideways . K.I.S.S , “keep it simple stupid !” Great video , benchmark for brake systems.
Agreed and thank you! 🙂
off road when riding muddy trails, disc brakes are far superior. I used to ride for fun, commuting and to keep fit so never had 'latest and greatest' of anything plus didn't worry too much about weight (still using Muddy Fox from early 80's when they were good and 'Made in England' even though it's close to 30lbs)
Some cable operated disc brakes are just as simple as rim brakes, yet are more effective, work all conditions, and don't wear out your rims.
Disc brakes are pretty easy to maintain. I've been riding for nearly 40 years myself. Once I learned them and got the proper tools, they are very easy. You just have to learn them.
100%
I'm an all-weather rider in the Seattle area (a.k.a. the Pacific NorthWET). I switched to disc brakes because I was tired of treating rims as a consumable that had to be replaced yearly, sometimes more often. The initial extra cost of a disc-equipped bike is more than offset by the reduce ongoing maintenance costs. Getting new wheels built every year gets expensive!
Then I can understand it. But it sounds like we are talking work bike rather than performance road?
@@reginaldscot165 Not work bikes, long-distance endurance bikes.
I've got 30,000 miles on the same pair of carbon rims. Wear is negligible.
This makes no sense
@@cartjaco that's because they don't stop your bike
I got into cycling in 2019 and my first bike was disc, you are 100% correct. The feeling of betrayal when I borrowed my friends rim brake allez was crazy. I felt like I'd been gaslit into thinking cycling had to be an expensive hobby if you wanted even baseline performance.
That’s a really concise and good summary of the problem of how manufacturer marketing departments ruined cycling for many people. 👍🏻
My friend had a similar experience. He owned 5 bikes (all carbon and some disc.) before he tried a rim Allez, the rim Allez is now his favourite bike. 😅
@@holben27 Disc brakes rule ! Full stop !
@@RobRudman this thing is a prime example of bike industry slave
I got into cycling in 1978. Disc brakes are vastly superior.
@holben27 thanks for posting your experience ……….it speaks volumes 👍.
Ask most mechanics to suggest desirables in a first bike and most will include ‘mechanical, external cables, rim brake, alu frame’ , something the majority of the industry effectively seeks to remove from you (for their excessive profit ).
I stopped watching when you started greatly exaggerating the maintenance costs of disc brakes. I’ve had disc brakes for 5 years, replaced discs once and pads once. Total spend: approx NZ$250. Never had to re-bleed them. Never had to replace the hydraulic fluid. Had to centre the callipers once when I bought new wheels - took less than a minute to do both.
It’s like you’re comparing the absolute worst case scenario with disc brakes to the absolute best case scenario with rim brakes.
Exaggerating with evidence? I played a video of somebody else’s experience, a famous TH-cam engineer. And I have worked in a bike shop for the last eight years. So… 🤷🏻♂️
You are absolutely correct and Reginald is too arrogant to be able to admit that he is clearly not offering a balanced view on rim vs disc brakes. I can 100 percent confirm your experience. I have had hydraulic disc brakes for 15 years on several bikes. Had to change discs rarely, pads occasionally (more often on mountain bikes, which isn't surprising considering the terrain). I never had to change any seals (also not on the hydraulic HS 33 rim brakes which I used for two decades - super reliable).
Reginald should just say "I am old fashioned, I don't like rim brakes and now I am trying to find evidence which fits my opinion" - but then of course nobody would watch this video. 😀 (unsubscribed this channel)
@@TechSucht Now why would he say, "I am old fashioned, I don't like rim brakes"?
@@reginaldscot165 your evidence is a video where the mechanics put a big amount of oil on the brakes and then simulated getting the squeaking away
How ist that neutral? u didnt even mention the context of the video to get your point across
which is lying to the viewer
@@reginaldscot165 How about evidence of 20 years of running disc brakes. NEVER have I had to replace a rotor. And Since I have updated bikes every 4 to 5 years I have NEVER replaced a set of pads, save for twice with oil contamination. And they are not expensive. Disc brake set up is 1 minute. Back when I ran rim brakes it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get the pads evenly set up. Nothing this guys is accurate on average and he really is citing only extreme cases of each end. Comparing worst case scenario against best case.
The only problem with rim brakes is that they make your expensive carbon rim a consumable item.
I still love my rim brakes though!
The disk version of that same wheel will be significantly more expensive and heavier, and has additional expensive parts. Therefore rim brakes are still cheaper when we compare the running cost as a whole package.
@@kihunpark8669I
You can get good carbon rim for 200 EUR and it may last 100000 km. Discs are also a consumable items and I would bet that they need to be replaced way more often.
You can get great carbon rims for about 500 USD nowadays. Only plus to disc is bigger tires.
Disc brake wheels are also consumable, you will find out in few years why!
I bought my first bike with disc brakes in 2015. Still rolling today as good as ever. All I ever do was to change the pads, maybe twice along the years, with super cheap ones from aliexpress. When I bought that bike, I also bought a kit to purge/change the oil. I never used it, it must be somewhere hidden in the back of a cupboard. So, I have all the benefits of disc brakes, with no problem, and the cheapest maintenance possible.
You are very lucky indeed. 😅👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 More like having more than 2 braincells and not buying shimanos/shrams overpriced disc rotors and pads.
I have like 5 friends who are into road cycling, we are all around 15-16 years old and all of them love disc brakes and keep hating me for liking rim brakes😂, because they just take their bikes into a bike shop and never want to deal with anything. I am the only one who does his own maintenance, my dad is really good at fixing literally anything and he taught me how to fix everything on a bike myself. Me and my dad used to ride rims for many years, now we both got a road and a cyclocross bike with disc brakes. Since we go by the mentality of just figuring out ourselves we were really frustrated so many times doing disc brake maintenance. It just isn’t straightforward as a rim brake system. We trashed 3 pairs of relatively new pads and one rotor just because of contamination. I once wanted to change my handlebars to a new carbon one piece and it was a nightmare, brake fluid everywhere in the garage, had to go to my LBS 3 times for just disc brake components and that itself cost me 50€. I am now looking for a used bike with rim brakes but sadly even on the used market there isn’t a lot of options. I just wish that the manufacturers would give the option at least. Great video!
Great comment and story. Your friends must be rich to get someone to always fix their bikes and do nothing themselves? You sound like me as a boy, my father is the same and although it’s easy to pay someone, in the long run knowing how to do something yourself is very important.
Good luck and all the best! 🙏🏻
We should have the choice but I don’t believe disc brakes on a road bike are necessary. It’s very wrong that the major brands won’t offer the rim brake option
100% agree with you. Give me a choice! 🧐
@@reginaldscot165 Maybe sales numbers from years when both options were available would reveal the reason there is no choice anymore. Rim brakes might as well be a niche market - similar to 2x drivetrain on MTB.
the market and us cyclists are partially to blame. If there's two bikes one disc and one rim at the same price. Which one will the majority of people buy?
people only want affordable rim brakes.
They dont sell them because people don't buy them.
Agreed that more choice is always better, but having said that, as an ex-Colorado roadie with 50 years of riding under my belt, I can tell you that in cases of extreme downhills or low temps, discs are absolutely superior. If you ride where the land isn’t wrinkly, or the temps are always mild, rim brakes might not be a bad idea.
Reginald Is 100% spot on. I'm a pro mechanic, so I work on bikes all day that belong to people with less knowledge of brake system care, and 9 times out of 10 when I TR a customer bike before a tuneup, the bikes with disc systems have less braking power than the ones with rim brakes, because rim brakes fare better over time with little to no maintenance than disc brakes. The average consumer doesn't own a bleed kit and seems to have a hard time not contaminating their brake surfaces. I own some bikes with rim brakes and some with disc, and they both have their place. I love having disc brakes on my carbon gravel wheels, but I hate that my new $7000 carbon gravel bike isn't much lighter the ones I was riding 20 years ago because of it. I definitely don't think disc brakes are an advancement, and I absolutely know that bike manufacturers got a lot of people to throw perfectly great rim brake bikes aside and buy new disc equipped bikes on the premise that it was an advancement.
Excellent comment thank you so much for your input. 👍🏻🙂
but the disc brake folk that have spent the big $$$$ will still argue with you
Just give the consumer the choice.
100% agreed! 🙂👍🏻
It's not that simple. It costs the manufactures of all of the stuff a lot more money to sell and support both rim and disc brake versions. Follow the $$$. For better or for worse, everything is going disc now. If you're buying new in the mid to upper level, you really no longer have a choice unless you get something custom made.
@@b1blancer1 If enough customers prefer rim brakes, companies can sell enough rim brake frames to justify the manufacturing overhead cost. And guess what? There are not enough customers. Speaking louder does not make the group bigger.
@@uranusjr And being ignorant does not make you right.
If you buy it, they will sell it,
My 2015 Masi Gran Corsa came with rim breaks, and I can easily lock up both breaks, even wet. I bought that bike in 2017 and have ridden it for many thousands of miles, and I have never replaced the pads yet. It still has the original cables, too. I did replace a cable on the bike. The rear derailleur cable got replaced in 2023. Im completely happy with the breaks as I am completely happy with the whole bicycle 🚲. All original except for the one cable 😊❤
Yeo, I've ridden two bikes 150,000 miles and never had to replace a brake cable.:)
It happens sometimes, just not to me in 30 years. 😅
Locking up both brakes in the wet isn't what yr looking for cheif
@4ndyc74 🤪you're an idiot. If the brakes have the ability to lock up when wet, then why the hell would you want to "upgrade" braking power by switching to disc? The point is that rim brakes have plenty of stopping power as they are. Simple, cheap, and lighter. No new specialty tools to buy and etc.
Have I simplified it enough for you yet?
Disc brakes have a place on mountain bikes that often travel through mud. Rims get muddy, and muddy brakes dont do much to slow down a bike. It would have to be REAL deep for discs to get muddy. But I see no reason for discs on a road bike. My road bike doesn't go off the road where the mud could be, and I've never seen mud on any of the trails or roads I ride.
Recently found your channel, and as a functional minimalist who wants less maintenance and more value for my money (my bike is a tool more than anything) I can vibe with a lot of your videos. Great content!
Welcome aboard! And thank you! 😁
Peter Sagan got 1M EUR to ride first disc brake bike in the race
Facts 👍🏻
@@stibra101 would do the same for half the amount lol
Thanks for making an honest and common sense video. New subscriber here.
Thank you! ❤️
What a great speaking style. The content itself could have been very nerdy/boring, but the content presenter brightened it up and brought it to life-showcasing his knowledge and innocent charisma! I’m an all-weather, fitness rider on a hybrid bike. I run errands, visit coffee shops, grocery stores, and farmers markets. Rim brakes are just fine for my purposes.
Glad you found it entertaining and I really appreciate the compliments. I will endeavour to do the same or better in the future. ❤️🙂
Having ridden rim and disc and taken all 50 minutes of "data" in the video into account, I'm still not convinced that I should go back to buying rim bikes. This issues you're experiencing with disc have not affected me and I've only had better stopping in wet and dry weather. Emergency stopping has been a lot faster as well.
Cool, your bike hasn’t got heavier and didn’t cost more to buy?
@reginaldscot165 all bikes cost more now,and weight isn't that more more , good click bait tho
@@LM42why is everyone trying to get their disc bike to rim brake weights…
@@matkrek actually, UCI weight limits
@reginaldscot165 since when , cost , ever been an issue in the past few years
As a cyclist that services their own bike and having a solid DuraAce groupset, I feel much happier servicing rim brakes. When I first got into cycling, I was riding a hard-tail MTB with disc brakes, and while it was cool and useful with wide tyres, the servicing for all the reasons mentioned in the video was a nightmare. I have been long thinking about upgrading to a disc frame, but the PTSD of dealing with disc brake servicing and the issues with pad contamination, accidental piston over-extension, rotor warp and accidentally singeing my leg multiple times when carrying the bike with hot rotors up several flights of stairs were really annoying. All well and good for a pro-rider whose team mechanics have to suffer the inconvenience.
I found this video refreshing as it really logically laid out all the reasons why rim brakes are superior all things considered, and I am now convinced to save myself the heartache and stick with what is best suitable for my road bicycle.
Agreed. Thank you very much! 🙂👍🏻
Yes👍
Rim brakes have an amazing sense of control and feel. It also have good enough biting power.
You’re absolutely right.
That was, indeed, very thorough. I have an old-school titanium rim bike. The one thing I envied about newer bikes was disc brakes. But this video cured me of that. Thank you.
My pleasure! From 1 titanium bike owner to another. 🙂❤️
Don't let this guy talk you out of discs. Hydraulic discs are far superior to rims in stopping power . Also not discussed is far less lever pressure is needed for those of us who have some hand or wrist issues.
Insightful commentary. Disc brakes on road bikes came along slightly after rims went to carbon and the bike wouldn't stop. Aluminum rims stop fine when wet. The first revolution cleans off the rim and the pads grip. The pads, especially when dirty, do score the braking surface on the aluminum rims, but they still won't crack for 30,000 miles, and can be cheaply replaced on the same hubs, which last much longer on old fashioned cup and cone bearings. You make the case well for the killer of disc brakes to be maintenance. All I've had to do with rime brakes is change the pads, center the caliper by eye with an Allen wrench, all of which takes only a few minutes.
I've also ridden Campy side pull brakes on two bike for 30 years and always felt they were designed on purpose to be athletically gripped hard on high speed or steep descents, consistent with the concept of "manual bikes." I've had no problem slowing down, although the aluminum rims heat up enough to burn my fingers if touched, and heard tell have sometimes have melted the glue and actually blown a tubular tire off the rim. The remedy for that is brake in short bursts and don't ride the brakes down the mountain.
Yes indeed, it was the same with my father in the mountains of Italy on our holidays, driving his car he wouldn’t rub the disc brakes all the way down the mountain because you over heat them. In both situations it’s knowing how to drive or knowing how to cycle that saves you.
@@paulmcknight4137 I have blown a tyre off a rim and I was using my brakes conservatively.
Luckily I was able to ride on the rim until I could stop . My legs were so shaky that I couldn’t stand
Happened to me before and my legs were shaking too ! I was able to stay on the bike too but the front rim was badly scratched and bent . I bent it straight on my knee and fitted the tyre and cycled home about 40 kilometres away.
Hope you have got over the shock . Luckily I was forced to ride after the repairs l made and it is the best way of
getting over the shock .
Glad you were ok !
Superb analysis! Still riding a titanium bike with rim brakes and plan to keep it that way. And I ride year-round in the rain and on the very steep hills in the Seattle area and have never had a problem stopping. Never! And no maintenance. None other than replacing the pads once in about 10 years.
I love my titanium bike… thinking about getting another one… in rim brake. 😆
Great complete video discussion. I think you nailed it. Disc brakes were all marketing like printers and ink
Thank you. 🙏🏻
Well said. I do Triathlons. I use 3 different bikes, 2 of which I train on. Mavic Open Pro C Rims with Dura Ace Rim brakes. One of my training loops, 28.6 miles, has 8 climbs that are in the 12%-14% grade with one decent where I top 48 mph and have to brake very hard to almost a complete stop. Rim brakes have no trouble whatsoever stopping on a dime. My competition bike is an S-Works SL6 set up for Tri. Again Rim brakes on Carbon Roval CLX 50 Rapide Rims. Stops on a dime. I hope I never have to go disc...
Good luck to you! 🙂👍🏻
Thank you. I was wondering if I was missing something not having disc brakes. You've convinced me I am not; in fact, I am happy that I don't have them.
On your road bike you aren’t really missing anything. 🙂👍🏻
Very watchable summary I've always instinctively thought the imposition of MTB braking tech on the road market was pure marketing bs. I remember when Cyclingnews et al would wax lyrical about the powerful braking of dual pivot Dura Ace calipers. All the while MTB riders where on disc. Nobody complained about being unable to stop using rim brakes!
@@Mafacracer I experienced lack of braking at all in XC seceral times...luckily never on road.
On one very muddy XC marathon clay was sticking to tires, rims and fork.
Dirty brakes just literally ate entire brakes pads in one hour. After this clay section rides were taking a bath with their bikes in nearby lake to be able to continue. More experienced knew this tricky part and were runing with their bikes on the shoulder to skip this section. Disc brakes users were significantly less affected.
Another time in winter a lot of snow collected on rim brakes just froze on long flat section blocking brakes later.
These cases would be rather extreme on the road, however while riding in the rain I'm happy rottors and brake pads are far away from thevroad surface.
@@asengineer4594 MTB is essentially Motocross without an engine it doesn't have anything to do with road riding. Nothing against it just saying a lack of braking power was never discussed in the road cycling media prior to the marketing of road disc. Sure there's always going to be someone who has niche needs but the wholesale change of framesets and ugly wheels didn't need to happen. It wasn't organic or driven by consumer demand.
Thank you, some MTB trials riders use hydraulic rim brakes because (they say in videos I’ve seen) the rim gives more powerful breaking and less give in the system.
I rent road bike 2x a year on road bike trips to Mallorca/Sardinia - and i definitely prefer disc brakes over rim brakes on those.
@@pkundratgood point, long or steep descents are more enjoyable when you can use less hand grip force to maintain braking power thanks to hydraulic assistance.
I've never replaced a disc rotor on my CX bike. Part of the secret is that I don't buy Shimano's discs, which as near as I can tell, are completely awful. By comparison, I've definitely destroyed a few rims in my life because of wear and tear, mostly because spring riding in Canada is very hard on those parts. I've literally had two rims explode under the pressure of the tyre, and once was on a ride.
This isn't to contest the point of the video, per se, just that parts selection actually does make a difference.
Won't reply to this, against the narrative 😅
Are we talking about road bikes? 🙂
Or is your story about road bikes, on the road?
Sucks to be you! 🤪
@@reginaldscot165 Road bikes...on the road? Yes?
(Technically, it was a cyclocross bike on the road, but I only ever used it on the road so I could ride through the winter.)
What cx rotors due you use if not shimano?. Thanks.
Can see considerable thought, effort and time went into the production of this ……….well done Reginald worthy of taking the time to view it all. Exactly right ….horses for courses …… but the genuine advantages of disc on road bikes, from a mechanic’s viewpoint, effectively nil for most riders. Not all tech transfers from the MTB world onto road apply the benefits from a completely different scenario or add value in practice. You covered it all. Final observation riders opting for disc on road is often more to do with ‘ feeling of security’ rather than reality based on physics …… the truly objectionable part is large brand frame manufacturers and the big three narrowing options to extract excess profits from their consumer base. Follow the money and therein lies the answer.
Excellent comment. 👍🏻
Money argument makes no sense. My zipp or Enve are much more than winspace to replace. Ok, let’s entertain this… This gentleman is comparing x2=$100 disc replacement to be cheaper than rim brake winspace $250 rim. Labor to re lace will run 500 for front and rear - so $750 at min instead of swapping out disc I can do at home in 15 min. There is nothing wrong with disc, nothing wrong with rim. In wet, grimy and mountains use disc. In flats and sunny climates use rim. If you can only have one, do disc, unless your rims are alloy, which then don’t matter.
Ha ha are you paying someone $500 USD to build your wheels? WTF. 😄 Also it’s every 6 years not 2-3 times a year like discs. Also most people don’t even have the tools to replace the disc so they still need to pay someone for that and they also pay more often to maintain a disc system. Maintenance on rim in that 6 years is basically nothing.
@@reginaldscot165 If they're six-bolt rotors pretty much everyone who has *any* tools will have the tools to replace them considering a basic multitool will do the job. And replacing rotors 2-3 times per year? Who is doing that? I've got 8000km over 16 months on my road bike rotors and they're nowhere near needing replacement. Maybe if you live in a mountainous area you might need to replace your rotors more frequently (still can't believe 2-3 times per year) but if you live in a flat area like I do they'll last much longer.
@@reginaldscot165 yes, where I live a broken spoke replacement and true is $100. I am running disk for 3rd year here in the Rockies, no maintenance yet.
How about changing brakes where houses are hidden in the stem. I dont want to know
I’ve been a serious cyclist for 45 years. So yes, I have some experience. Disc brakes stop better and they are not fussy like rim brakes.
Great video on a much needed topic. Saw this before I set out to “bed in” my new disc pads. Never had a problem with squawking brakes on my rim brake bikes!!🤨. Thanks Reginald for this video. Perhaps a video on retrofit possibilities for disc brake bikes to rim is in order…or wait until the bike industry starts listening to consumers and allows them to make the choice between rim or disc…rather than be force fed “tech” with dubious benefits. Don’t get me started on tubeless road bike tires…
Ha ha I have a video on that as well! 😅
One of best compilation of Rim Vs Disc Brake! I learned a lot. Infact I started road bikes (since 2021) with disc brake's bike, but now I tends to revert back to rim brake bike more & more. As it was much lighter, easier for home mechanic, & so many great used rim-brake road bikes out there. Disc brake was not gimmick (imo) just it wasn't that necessary for road bikes. Again I really enjoy this video, well done!
Thank you! Yes it’s not a gimmick in general. It’s great for MTB, just wasted power on road bikes. 🙂
Brilliant video I owned a 2019 TCR disc and rim. I still have the rim but sold the disc. Totally agree with your points in the video 👍👍👍
Smart move! 😆👍🏻 All the best!
Hey Reginald, great video !
Agree 100%.
The more so called innovations the more retro I go. All the best.👍
Thank you my friend! 🙏🏻
Spot on! I've ditched two disc-brake road bikes and gone back to 10 speed
I think this is my new favorite channel. Impeccable breakdown. What do we do now? The industry won’t go back
Stick to rim and encourage other people to choose rim. 😊
Aluminium rim brake rims do crack sooner or later,but that is a long process.All the rims I cracked were single waĺled,still haven't experienced double walled aluminium rims to fail.Wiping rims and sanding pads is a good practice to maintain.
I've riden double walled aluminium cheap ass rim brake wheels for over 8 years and they never failed me no cracking even crashed em over 20 times potholes numerous they tough tough when they have multiple walls 😂
I try to file pads rather than sand, I don’t want that contaminant in the pads. 🙂👍🏻
In a wet environment (Vancouver BC) I was going through a rim every 12-18 months with rim brakes, long before they cracked, the sidewalls were simply worn out and dangerous. An absolute PITA.
I didn't want to believe a lot of what Durianrider says - but the more experienced I become as a cyclist, the more I realise he is correct about quite a lot.
Yes I trust his opinion on bikes, not on diet, drug use or women… but bikes for sure. 😁👍🏻
Some people just like to destroy what they cannot afford. 😅
You just have to look at the sugar consumption and cadence the worlds fastest riders do today to realise I was right all along. Ask Jonas, Remco and Tadej who they watched as juniors on youtube who inspired them to crack at strava segments, guzzle more sugar than anyone and spin to win obsessively.
Duning Kruger is the biggest performance blocker out there today for non pro cyclists. They got fleeced by the big brand marketing teams. Im here to change that.
@@Archiconocido I agree! I heard durian boy is dead broke, all those girls in his vids are his sisters and he lives in a hut made of shoe boxes filled with sand!
@@durianriders sugar = energy, pretty much
Excellent video, and the points you make are perfectly valid. I started riding quite a bit before you were born, and from the 70s to the mid 80's there were some big improvements made with braking systems on bikes (ignoring the Campy Delta.... less said the better). We all got used to how they worked, and we all rode with the knowledge of their operating window. That's not to say they were perfect, because they weren't, but we were all using the same stuff so we just got used to it. Through the 90's rim brakes really were pretty good, and I certainly didn't find myself wanting more stopping power. Then we started down the aero rabbit hole, and that really changed how these brakes felt. No matter how hard, sending a brake cable round a forced bend is going to introduce some extra friction, and reduce the feel. I recall the first time I built a bike with concealed brake cables, and it was really noticeable. This only got worst as more and more frames introduced more aero frames, sending brake cables all over the place, not to mention the shifter cables too. Around this time the offroad bikes were starting to introduce disc brakes, and if you've ever ridden a cantilever equipped off road bike, you'll know what a horrible mess that was. Disc brake really did make a difference, and this was 1990 (I think it was Condor who made the first available bike). I don't think anyone would ever want to go back to rim brakes for an off road bike. So we had a number of development paths all moving along at the same time, aero frames, disc brakes wider tyres and latterly tubeless tech. That's not even taking into account electronic shifting and gravel bikes. I'm not saying all this has been perfectly executed, but in all the things that have changed, would I want to go back to rim brakes ? Hell no. As with all cyclists we all have n+1 bikes, and all my current bikes are disc, and the differences are so small it takes a very short time to recalibrate. And my final note is your comment on the pros missing corners, I think you'll find there were plenty of riders overshooting corners on rim brakes, these tended to be the larger riders who were not on the TV. Pretty sure if you asked Tom Pidcock what he'd prefer to descend on, I recon he's say disc. And He's pretty good ;-)
They aren’t “missing corners” they can’t stop! Go watch the full video on Durian riders channel. (I have a rim Vs playlist, it’s on there.) They are swearing because the discs are completely over heated. He didn’t just miss 1 corner, he is missing all of them. And he’s not the only example. 😅
Best comparison video I've seen on TH-cam about the brake discussion.
Ah thank you so much. 😘
@@reginaldscot165 A lot of research & very good counterpoints when comparing. A lot of information of Why & When.
it was horrible. the whole video was just using the worst possible disc brakes against the top of the line rim brakes.
Great video. I think what is lost in the discussion about disc vs rim, is the fact the the disc is a smaller diameter than the rim, requiring more force to stop the wheel due to leverage. This is probably the reason for the complaints about mechanical discs, the increased hand strength needed to effect braking. Physics dictates that clamping a spinning wheel to a stop at it's largest diameter takes less force than grabbing it near it's rotational point. I have 2 disc bikes, and both brake fine (TRP Spyres on one better than the Tekro on the other), but I also have a rim brake bike, and really don't see the benefit of disc unless I was in bad weather. Also, the disc systems are typically far heavier.
Excellent point, yes it’s easy to stop a spinning wheel by grabbing the tyre, but try stopping the same wheel by the hub, not easy. 😁
Mechanical discs are the worst of all worlds and the devil’s work. 😮
That's why I run 203's on my mountain bikes.
Exactly , that is simple transmission backwards.
It's like pedaling on highest gear , but for the breaks..must put a tremedous strain on material.
Wow so many well thought out explanations on rim and disk brakes that I haven't heard before. Definitely going to stay with my rim brakes moving forward on my road bikes. Thanks for the useful insights.
You are most welcome 🙏🏻
Multiple times you conflate hydraulic disc with mechanical disc. You pick the worst traits of both systems to compare to the best rim brake systems can offer.
You are mistaken.
@@reginaldscot165 the stopping power test you cited was all mechanical disc, but the costs you listed are all hydraulic.
My Best braked bike is hydraulic disc, worst is rod braked, well rod brakes is not right, it doesn’t slow you down, you just don’t know how scared you are, because the bike shakes so much 😂
When braking down a local 25% long hill, I have had the disc rotor glow red, and pad fade, scary, that was a mechanical disc and unbranded pads.
@@ianboyd9723 I doubt rim brakes would be much better there, with much worse hand fatigue. You can reduce brake fade with better rotors and pads most likely
Lun Hypers are the best wheels for Rim brakes, they're light, fast, snappy, extremely responsive, smooth and with amazing braking when paired with a good set of carbon pads. I've ridden mines for over 2000kms and their performance in all conditions is superb!!!
might save up for them if i do decide to switch to carbon wheels
@@asonofdorn8442 As they're carbon-spoked wheels, they're very stiff and less compliant than the average carbon wheelset, so keep this in mind if this is not what you want. Such wheels aren't for everybody.
@@asonofdorn8442I use lun wheels and they don’t stop good in rain.
@@gabrielfernandeztattoos No carbon wheels stop good in rain.
@@82vitt that’s a fact, but the guy commented “in all conditions” I am not pro disc, but I had a couple of events where rain and that’s was a bit difficult
Hey, thanks for breaking down the good, bad , and the ugly. I am sticking to my rim breaks. Thank again bro i do appreciate the enlightenment.
You are most welcome. 🙏🏻
My experience with rim wear is quite different. In the bad old days, I would get about 6,000 miles of bicycle commuting in Seattle before wearing an aluminum rim out. Then there is the lovely oxidized aluminum goo that gets all over the rim, tire, bike, and my hands and clothes when I have to fix a flat. No thanks!
If I didn't have a lot of riding in the rain, sure, rim brakes would be fine.
Exactly, my Urban bike with v-brakes that gets me to all road and conditions, have very fast wear off the rims, less than 2 years i already have to change the rims, and the pads too, have to change every 2 or 3 months, the argument of cheaper maintenance don't suit on me
Interesting experience. I have been commuting in seattle for most of my life as well, on alu rims. Never had any oxide buildup on the rims. Running Koolstop salmon pads meant that I have still yet to wear out a single rim. What pads are you using?
@@SamirBorelli how often do you clean your rims?
@@oreocarlton3343 not very often 😁
But my mileage on this bike is also very high, aprox. 6000 to 8000km a year sometimes i ride through some dirt wet roads, most off the wear off the pads and rims occur on these days
customer friend is training hard & preparing for the UAE end-to-end ride. his SRAM DUB BB is worn out, his disc brake pads and rotors are worn out. he's a triathlete & German(strong legs). it has cost him USD440 to replace the 2 rotors, pads and BB. this is his 2nd pad change in a year. what an expensive mess we've created. i use either Swissstop Black Prince or Dura Ace pads on my rim-brake bikes(i have 9). a pack of pads (F & R) are MAXIMUM USD55/-. I've bought the last of the Giant TCR Advanced SL framesets in a rim brake version and built her up to 6.6kg including all mounts and tubular alloy wheels which i built myself using Bitex RAR/RAR12 hubs, Sapim Race Spokes and Kinlin TB20 rims.
Smart. 👍🏻🙂
Did exactly the same thing 40% deal for the last TCR rim brake 😊
@@dickieblench5001 got mine all the way from Giant Helston. I bought a Maglia Rosa from them a few years ago. Built up the new one with Dura Ace 9250.
This was very informative. Did you see Wout Van Aert's rear wheel lock out at yesterday's Vuelta race? Your video is spot on. I bought a gravel bike with SRAM 1x Apex system in January, I already had to replace one thru-axle due to the constant cleaning of the rotors and pads. Maybe I should go and buy a bike with canti brakes.
I think for gravel it might be the best option to use disc, but you will have to put up with the normal disc issues. I have a canti gravel bike. It’s fine for my needs.
Thank you for your comment. 🙂👍🏻
Well my next bike is going to be a rim brake one just like the other road bikes I have. Makes sense for off-road, not road bikes.
Another great video Reginald!
@@paulgaida2601 Reg is the one who inspired me to build a rim brake bike! I really hope that the bike industry resurrect the rim brake. We the cyclists should be the ones to design and make road bikes. Unfortunately the industry are not cyclists and only interested in profits. They hire some idiots to mass produce shit bikes!
Thank you! Yes if you have all rim bikes why would we want something completely different making everything more complicated. 😁👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 oh, I always choose the more complex difficult way as long as it makes better results, just like how Litespeed artisans also choose the difficult method to create more sophisticated frames!
I actually do see the place for disk brakes in some cycling applications, but not necessarily in road bikes. for me, disk brakes makes sense for cyclocross races, self supported ultra distance racing with bags and bigger tires, and for any extreme stuff.
Sometimes this feels a little like football vs fútbol. It's like two different games. Which one do you like to play? The disc brake game is fun on rainy days, long days in the dirt and mud, and whenever I want to run fat tires beyond 48mm. Otherwise, gimme some good sidepulls and a good fit and I'm happy.
🤔
the most in depth video about this topic, well done! And everything you said is totally in line with my experience. BTW: the best rim brake pads I know are the Campagnolo red pads for carbon - the braking with them simply is phenomenal, with DT-Swiss carbon wheels and even more with Campagnolo carbon wheels. Braking in the rain is equally good as in dry conditions - very much recommended!
I’m thinking of doing a test of pads. Thanks! 🙂👍🏻
discs brakes: stop better in all weather, no issues with carbon rims and allows wider tyres. Only downside is cost but that is a road thing as hydros can be bought cheaply on flat bars. old fuddy duddies can just GTF
You into MTB? I think you don’t fully realise the massive technological gap between disc for MTB and road. For MTB they make sense, but on road, not only are they under sized (poor heat dissipating, especially when considering the extreme speeds reached by road bikes) but are overpowered for the size or road tyres. The lack of suspension unlike on a MTB really doesn’t help the cace for road disc.
@@reginaldscot165 no issue with 160 F&R on my road bike. Road riding isn't the same as mountain biking. sure a 180 mm front would be nice but not required. As for technology, its the same although my MTB has bigger 4 pot calipers.
Much will come down to wheels and tyre clearance for me. If I can find a lightweight deep section rim with an aluminium brake track and clearance for 28mm tyres, that’s a winner. Mavic came close a few years ago with their Cosmic Pro Carbons.
Interesting. 🙂
Have you checked out HED wheels?
Campagnolo Bullets too.
Aside from the HED wheels mentioned, you should look into modern carbon fiber rims, which use higher Tg resins and sometimes with additives so the heat issue isn't a problem like it was 10 years ago. Also, you have grooved brake tracks which aid with wet braking.
A lot has changed since the early days of carbon rims.
@@yonglingng5640 I did, but HED now offers Shimano/SRAM freehubs ONLY, and I have Campy Record 10. ☹😡
Very well done! This is definitely the most thorough and exhaustive analysis I have seen on the subject of rim v disc. I can't think of anything you overlooked. Although the distinction between the two systems is defined as "rim" versus "disc", the engineering reality is that a "rim" is just a big "disc". This usually stumps the disc brake fanatics for at least 20 or 30 seconds. If riders can't live without 10x stopping power or have low grip strength, they can simply use hydraulic rim callipers. Also, I have a set of Zipp 404 carbon tubular race wheels from 2005 with at least 50,000 miles on them - using Campag pads. I have been waiting for them to "burn through" for many years now, just so I could repair the brake track using some high temp epoxy resin I have on hand. I expect the very expensive resin may expire before I get a chance to use it! Finally, it would be interesting to see your analysis into the demise of tubulars versus clinchers. In my view, this is a similar marketing debacle albeit for a different set of reasons. Cheers/
Unfortunately I left a few points out of the video because it was getting too long and I didn’t think people would watch a hour long video on this subject. But looking at the responses maybe I was wrong! 😅
100% agree. Glad i don't have to work with so called modern bikes. Rim for the win. Never had a problem with rim brakes. Modulation is spot on, great feed back.
Reginald do a QR vs boost wheel crap, more shit.
Thank you. 🙂👍🏻
Bike? Rather walk , don't need wheels
Well, let us agree on the fact that rim brakes just break like shit unter most circumstances. When it is wet for example. Also it is a pain in the ass to set them up correctly for me. The disc breaks just do their job for ever. They don't have to stop a car or motorcylce! And about the weight: if the bike is too heavy, in fact it is probably you (and all the water bottles).
@@Knacki42 yep!!!!
@Nivacromcolumbus or walking vs bicycle
For me, the only real advantage is that inner width in disc brake wheels, is bigget than rim brakes wheels. A frame with dual pivot rim brakes (rear not under the crankset) is the best.
Most rim brakes these days have two pivot points, the difference being in the position of said pivot points.
As much as I hate passionately disc brakes, I do like the fact that I can put a wide wheel with a fat tire on my gravel bike or a carbon race wheel, and I do this all the time. On a pure road bike, disc brakes are an insanity.
Why do I need a wider rim? To fit wider tyres? Why do I need wider tyres on a road bike. 😁
@@reginaldscot165 I think if you want wider tyres on your bike it is nice to have the option, regardless of the reason.
Maybe you trust what the wheel companies are saying, that they are faster, maybe you like a softer ride, maybe you do a bit of gravel with your road bike, it really doesn't matter...
@@reginaldscot165current dura ace rim brakes barely squeeze in 30s. And I mean really barely. 30 isn't even the biggest size used in the TDF, so yeah you might have a use case for a road bike where a few extra mm would be appreciated
Wow, that's quite a video. My first bike has a coaster brake, my second bile has rim brakes, because I figured if the pads, or something else, failed on them, I could get the parts and fix it myself, which you mention in the video. I really didn't even know about the rest of the advantages and disadvantages. Would have saved me some thought if I saw this video a six months ago. I am going to buy a Summer bike in a few months, and after watching this video I think I will stick with the rim brakes for that one as well. Thanks.
Thank you, all the best. 🙂👍🏻
Excellent video - 100 percent agree with your comments a -heck my fat ass got a top 10 KoM on one of the most ridden long DH's in Canada with RIM BRAKES. The amount of issues I have had with Dura-ace level discs and the costs of trying to fix it was insane. I currently run a Lightbicycle rim frame with Ultegra and roval rim carbon wheels - it is twice the bike of my DA Cervelo R5. So I am with you, BUT some points:
- RIM cannot run tubeless nor anything over a 30 for the crap roads we have in Canada (freeze thaw...)
- RIM impacted by wheel trueness
- Easier to have clean cable lines with disc and when you do with rim - you compromise on the quality of breaking when you move away for calipers - for looks - I give it to DISC
- Aero -RIM - to add to your points Hambini points out the dirty air a disc creates as it rotates
- The comparison test you showed was with tecktro brakes and different tire sizes - I would ignore that. A true test would be with a bike with Ultegra 8000 Discs and Calipers -exact same group level and very common. Tires would be 28's GP5000'S with tubes for both - very common Disc or Rim. I just might do that.
-TRI-Omega -they are selling their product - not an independent verification .
-Hand fatigue - DISC are better on long descents. As you pointed it - probability of crashing due to messed up braking due to mental fatigue on long descents - DISC also
-Ease of routing cables - Disc does better with tight bends....
-The reasons why DISC is perceived as better- Don't forget industry marketing - remember when front wheel drive came out? You are likely too young...
We have a 1700 m climb outside my front door - the discs are always rubbing on it.......... It is so annoying - I sold the bike!
Loved watching this - my next bike is RIM
Great comment and points. I have a rim road touring bike from the 1980s with 35mm tyres in it. It takes up to a 40mm.
I agree that bike companies should do more to maintain a rim brake offering with their models. I personally run/prefer discs and by knowing how to service my bikes properly, have no problems with maintenance or its costs. What I don’t get, is how those who are upset about the depreciation of rim options often feel the need to shit on discs? The fight shouldn’t be against discs by arguing over the pros and cons, it should be with the manufacturers who are railroading things. Two wrongs don’t make a right….
I agree that manufacturers (and the idiots who believe the marketing) are responsible and mostly to blame. However I’m not s-ing on disc as such, I’m pointing out flaws in the system that make it inferior to rim on ROAD BIKES. I don’t for a second believe it have no useful applications and if I was buying a MTB or gravel bike I’d get disc in a heartbeat.
Amazing! Fantastic video! I am still with my rim brakes and started finally feeling old fashioned. Now I realized I am avantgarde💪 Thank you for all the details and the provided knowledge.
You are welcome. ❤️
I've had 8 bikes in my life, 2 with backpedal brakes, 2 with rim brakes, 4 with disc brakes. And the bikes with rim brakes have been the only 2 with inconsistent and insufficient (read dangerous) braking. I have one of them now, and if something happens to it, I'm not getting another one with rim brakes. I've had enough of it. Cool video though.
It’s funny because I get comments from people who say literally the opposite to you. 🤷🏻♂️ 😁 Not saying you aren’t telling the truth, it’s just funny. 🙂
Another point about braking that's not mentioned enough is that not only is the braking force limited by tire grip, unless you are practiced in emergency braking, i.e. leaning all the way back, you can't come close to that limit anyway.
So your average Joe who's not into the performance aspect of cycling may think that you get more power with disc brakes with less effort. However, if he can only make use of, say, 75% of the tire's grip because he doesn't lean his weight back, the only thing he has accomplished is making it easier to go over the bars with an accidental handful of brake.
This is not even mentioning the fact that a lot of more casual cyclists are scared to touch the front brake and *only* use rear brake, which right off the bat makes most of the tires' grip inaccessible.
Good point, experience really matters!
@@reginaldscot165 absolutely:- mountain biking ( downhill racing) has taught me the importance of body positioning on the bike when hitting brakes in an emergency. Having predictable braking is key to successful stopping. ( without falling- or maybe just scrubbing your speed )
I have never regretted changing front rim braking to disc brakes !
😢😢
Nah, that limit is much closer than you think if you travel fast, especially down hill, and cornering. In motor sport this is called the "friction circle". All the cornering force and braking force are all coming from the friction force of the tyre. As well-educated high-schoolers like all of us, we know that force is a vector and has a direction, when adding forces we have to do it the vector way. Because the cornering force is always perpendicular to where you are going, and the breaking force is always opposite to where you are going, so you have F_cornering^2 + F_breaking^2 = F_tyre^2. You are OK if your combined force is smaller than the friction limit of the tyre. But once you reach that F_tyre_max point, you can only trade cornering force with braking force. You can draw a circle with the r=F_tyre_max and every point within that circle represents a possible force combination.
In short, when cornering hard, your limit of braking friction is much less than when going straight. You might account that friction limit much easier than you think. Just watch any of the pro road races, pros are crashing with all kinds of weird tyre slipping in the corners. They don't lack any kind of skill and tech, but they still flying straight to the road rails so often. You might argue that they ride much faster than us, but no, when cornering they are not that much faster than a lot of experienced amateurs, and they are not even applying near maximum braking force because all they need is to slow down, but not to a complete stop. You'll see what will happen if an emergency stop is what you wanted.
That's why all of the cornering tutorials say "brake BEFORE entering the corner, and when in the corner you should NOT brake". Because only when going straight your braking efficiency is maximized so you can get that correct speed asap, and when in the corner because you have to share your braking force with cornering force, you either risk a slippage with braking or have to lose direction (going over the center line) to avoid that to reduce the speed.
Plus the pros are about 30kg or 30%~40% lighter than us, and the force F=m*a. So you'll see how low your limit is applied here.
Actually when I'm descending a mountain, especially when I was 95KG and on 25mm Conti GP5K at 95 psi, I can feel that slippage at almost every corner when you approach there. It's very much like when riding on ice and you'll know/feel the point before a real slippage.
From all above I actually came up with the opposite view that disc brake is not necessary. Though when I started riding bikes it's already disc brakes (XC and road), and I thought it's just superior than rim brakes because... it just looks obvious. Until when I actually ride some rim brake "legacy" bikes, and it shocked me that it's surprisingly good that I don't even feel a practical difference on them.
I get your idea that you think the grip limit is high, so whatever can exchange kinetic energy to heat faster wins. But in my feel the grips are actually quite low. No matter if you are on rim brake or disc brake, you are almost always easily approaching that point. So whatever system you are on doesn't matter.
@@xuchenglin6256 I'm afraid you've gone through all that effort without really understanding the point I was trying to make. People are rightfully saying that braking is limited by tire grip, but they are forgetting about technique.
I'm strictly talking about braking in a straight line in the dry. In this scenario it's basically going to be impossible to skid your front tire, meaning that the limiting factor is your emergency braking technique (assuming non-crap brakes/pads). In this scenario, it doesn't matter how powerful your brakes are because if you don't lean all the way back, you'll be limited to (for example) .75 * F_tire_max. All I'm saying is that someone who hasn't practiced their technique has only made it easier for themselves to go over the bars because of the extra mechanical advantage they have on the brakes. So before one goes out and buys a disc brake bike thinking they need more braking power, they should work on their technique first.
Cornering and riding in the wet is a tangential point.
Great work. In-depth analysis on each point.👍
Just wanted to add 1 more point in favour of rim brake. Servicing headset bearings is much easier in rim brakes as compared to H-disc brake bikes. Since the H- disc lines are internally routed to make them aero.
Yes that’s under the point about servicing time. 🙂 They are a total pain in the posterior. 😂
Thank you and safe riding! 🙂👍🏻
I just thought I knew all the differences between the two systems, not. My last disc brake bike always had that rotor rub/squeak and I was always adjusting the calipers to no avail.
Just built up a new rim frameset with Ultegra recently and I have yet to adjust or hear any rubbing whatsoever. But it seems as if the disc guys look down on me now, LoL!?
Time to send them this video to explain why you picked rim over disc. 😎👍🏻
Great presentation on Rim vs Disc. How about a comparison of tube tires vs tubeless tires. . .. I view both market changes as simply a money grab. I have more than 40 years of cycling. All changes I have witnessed are nothing more than a money grab.
I have a video on NOT going TUBELESS. 😄
The cycling industry (specifically the rim manufacturers) make far less $ from disc brake users due to rims not being destroyed every year or so in wet environments.
Very interesting breakdown.
A big breakthrough for me as a rim brake user was dura ace callipers bought 2nd hand for a fraction of the new price and shimano r22 c+1 pads which have a softer compound. The modulation, breaking power and predictability in all conditions is great.
I cannot justify buying a new bike and don’t want to commit to disc especially when the 2nd hand market for rim brake bikes is full of some real bargains.
The same can be said for 2 piece bar and stem external and semi-internal routing setups.
Cheers
Agreed 👍🏻 🙂
Don't forget, Reg is coming at this topic from the perspective of a bike mechanic 😇 You may think he is biased, but he IS telling you that he spends much more time dealing with DISC brake bikes, He is expressing they are "pain in the ass" set up taking the majority of his time. Keep your Disc brakes if you like. I've got 30,000 miles on a singular pair of carbon Rims - replaced the pads once (70 Kilos). Carbon rims don't wear out. I always thought Disc brakes were a way to "churn" the market for new money. Mechanic at my own bike shop says he will never move to disc. Cheers to Reg. 🖤
Thank you for your understanding. Yes it’s true, many of the people who love disc say “why would I care an the maintenance? I just sent them to the bike shop?” 😅
Yeah, I also have a friend who is an expert bike mechanic, and he said the same thing, hydraulic disc brakes are a lot more work.
Lots to unpack here, much of it seems to driven by mechanical incompetency. For anyone who rides in rainy and gritty conditions, rim brakes are simply inferior. The best part about moving to discs is that I don't have to clean out my pads 3x per week, replace rims every 10,000 miles, and replace cables 2x per year. Oh, and find me a rim brake racing bike that clears 32mm tires. I still regularly ride a rim brake bike as well, but to pretend like they are better is a shit take.
What kind of goon wants a road “race bike” that runs 32mm tyres! 😂
Is it a race or are you going touring? Don’t tell me you think fatter tyres are faster? 😅
Try waxing your cables! Replacing them 2x a year is ridiculous. 😆
@@reginaldscot165 The kind of goon who lives somewhere with bad pavement! Look at the tire clearance that they're building in to many on the newer racing bikes, it's obviously something that many consumers are interested in. I've waxed brake cables in the past and it honestly didn't make a difference, there's just too much road grit here.
@@reginaldscot165 It has become pretty clear over the last few years that wider tyres have much better rolling resistance on real pavement. The push for smaller and smaller tyres came from "lab research" under very nurealistic circumstances. 32C has great performance compared to 25C.
What sort of going makes click bait videos....@Reginaldscot165
@@reginaldscot165tell that to the riders riding the pro tour. Most are riding 28c or 30c regularly and 32c occasionally when needed.
Great video, I agree with all you have said. Good to see I am not the only one who cannot follow the marketing. I'm a bike mechanic and have made the switch to disc a few years ago after believing the hype, but now years later I am back riding on rim bikes. Disc is not for me I guess.
Brilliant! By far the most comprehensive comparison Rim vs. disc brakes. Two things i found especially remarkable: First one is the fact that the hydraulic cables deliver no „brake feedback“ in your fingers, which reminds me of electronic shifting: There is also no feedback whatsoever from the derailleurs when „clicking“ your lebers to shift. Wheras in my mechanical systems i get a distinctive feedback esp. from the rear derailleur when pulling the cable. I can even make up for the „not-so-perfect-gear-shifts“ by pulling the lever a bit harder in order to make the chain jump up the next cog easier. So i am „feeling“ the mechanical process. Whereas in hydraulic braking and electronic shifting i am kind of „separated from the procedure. I am only allowed to „place an order“ but i am not really taking part in the process anymore. - Secondly when i hear you (Reginald) saying that there have been a lot of pros losing their brake pads completely in long/steep descents, that would provide another reason why lately quite many pro riders have fatal accidents in the mountains (e.g. the Alps). There was poor Gino Mäder in 2023, this year it was another pro rider dying in a descend in Austria. Until now i thougt the reason may have been hideous tubeless tyres on „hookless“ rims, but no we have to take worn out or overheated disc brake pads into consideration. Very strangely nowadays nothing is reported anymore about the circumstances or reasons of those accidents. It is just said: „You see, going downhill in the high mountains is just dangerous!“ Which explains nothing.
That’s so true! I feel like I’m going crazy because it looks like a cover up to me. All the footage of people crashing on disc breaks in the tour gets scrubbed. You wouldn’t believe how difficult it is to find clips, all those crashes that we remember seeing on TV just suddenly disappear off TH-cam. You can’t even search them by name, like even if you put in the name of the rider and the date of the race and the location you still can’t hunt down the clip you’re looking for. It doesn’t end there, famously Richard Branson had a crash when both his disc brakes failed on a long descent, originally it was all over the newspapers and online, all the articles mentioned he had disc brakes, because at the time it was something new. Now if you go back and try to find the same articles nowhere does it mention his breaking type! 😱
@@reginaldscot165 I am not claiming that disc brakes were (totally/solely) at fault, but I do wonder if they had anything to do with WVA crashing out of the Vuelta while holding both the mountain and points jerseys.
There might be certain times/specific slick road conditions when one does not want their "instantaneous, 'superior', un-godly braking power"
Why do the “rim brakes are better” crowd assume that those of us that prefer discs have never ridden rim brakes? The “rimsplaining” is excruciating.
Because most new riders to cycling haven’t. And many who have never experienced all qualities of rim brakes.
@@reginaldscot165 the Madone aero rim brakes were appalling, should never have been legal. That marked the beginning of the end of rim brakes as aero started to take over in frames. Look at the new Colnago rim brake C68. It’s heavier than the disc version. The aero mods to frame shapes mean that using discs is less of a penalty- the forks are already reinforced. But each to their own. If a properly aero and light rim brake frame emerges from somewhere, I won’t shy away from it. At present a Supersix evo 6kg rim brake bike gets left for dust on descents compared to a modern frame. I see it daily.
Rim brakes crowd😂 because Discs are wank..I've got both. Rim brake bike miles better and lighter. Now stick that in yer pipe and smoke it😂
@@SteveThompson-qt8wi as do I boss [own both]. And here’s the thing, you’re free to prefer what you prefer, as am I. I think the point that should be made is that consumers can no longer choose. We live in a new form of communism, where the producer, not the consumer, decides what you must buy. Cars exactly the same, phones the same, tvs. That should be the point, not rim v disc. Both should be available with continued innovation and improvements. But that’s not the case. If rim brake frames remained modern, I’d probably never have switched. But the aero can’t be ignored out on the road for anyone riding at decent speeds (i.e. 40km/h on the flat when riding zone 2)
@@Tommy31416exactely, well spoken. It s not like we really have to choose how we option our cars/bikes. We option with what they give us a list of options, otherwise, the small displacement engines 3 cyl were in the trash for a long time😊
Brilliant! I can only remember a few incidents where heat build-up in mechanical brake/aluminium rim wheels was an issue. One that stands out was a tandem without a rear 'drag brake' (usually drum, sometimes disc) where the heat from braking on a long descent caused the tire to blow off the rim. From that lesson we concluded that tandems equipped only with rim brakes were probably not the best choice for the average users of tandem bikes. I was employed at the time at a dealer of Santana tandems, and also worked with Rodney Moseman, a respected custom frame builder who specialized in tandems. (BTW: 45+ years spent working in bicycle shops, plus stints with Mavic, SunRace and Bianchi USA, in case you're wondering).
With the additional weight I think disc breaks makes sense on a tandem.
This video really is very comprehensive and fully confirms what I’ve always believed that rim brakes are the best. I’ll not be changing to disk brakes anytime soon and the advice to try out cheap Chinese carbon wheels makes infinite sense.
Thank you, yes I really don’t see the point in carbon rims that cost more than the bike! Which brings me onto one question, the chemical composition of carbon rims for rim breaks must be why more advanced than for disc, because no breaking surfaces? So why are the disc rims so expensive?
There's a common fallacy being repeated ad nauseum ... " Chinese made products are rubbish ".. Not necessarily, as a musician I've played Chinese made guitars from Eastman which are excellent instruments.. Bike wise, it comes down to research on reputation & feedback to know who to buy from & who not to buy from... Reality is there's junk made in Europe as well as stateside so Caveat Emptor always rules..
@@marcstreiff6067 I recall as a kid in the 60s all Japanese products were categorized as rubbish. Even at that age I could appreciate the workmanship of a Hero fountain pen. Nobody rubbishes Japanese products these days. In my personal experience Chinese products are similar, they can be both fantastic or really rubbish. It depends what you’re buying and from which company. Lower tier companies should be avoided and it’s far better to pay a bit more to get the best quality
Like it👍🏻....+ appreciate the work you put into this vid!
Thank you, it was actually very difficult. 😅
KUDOS TO YOU! I particularly like that you start right away with useful information (as opposed to holding back to maximize viewing minutes).
Thank you, I appreciate your comment. 👍🏻🙂
This video was well done. You will get a lot of views with this one. It may convince manufacturers to give consumers the choice of rim brakes. In the interim, my old 30+ year old bike works fine with rim brakes.
Thank you 🙏🏻 I’m not that hopeful. 😅
@@reginaldscot165 Ah, and therein lies the problem. You could 10 more videos like this one, but the truth is, for mid to upper level bikes, you no longer have a choice. It's disc, like it or not.
@@b1blancer1 Even the bottom bicycles sold are almost all disc brakes. It kind of makes one ponder about how choices are made as to what will be sold. All these comments in favor of rim brakes. So,......I wonder if disc brakes have taken over the bike market to help the manufacturers make more money and they are not responding to consumer demand.
@@daniellarson3068 BINGO! And you've hit upon it. As always, follow the $$$.
I would be lying if I said I didn't love my Tarmac SL6 (disc), but the disc brakes do annoy me. I barely had to do anything with my rim brake bikes...my usual workout ride that I do multiple times a week is only ~18 miles, but climbs ~2500ft. Technically all the climbing is done in 12 miles, 6 miles is just the ride home which is all downhill. I don't ride slow downhill, I bomb the hill and hit 50 mph almost every time (depending on wind), but this descend includes two very hard 180* turns which require me to slow to ~12mph to complete the turn safely. I ONLY brake to turn, I don't touch my brakes on a normal curvy descent, I have the KOM, which is over multiple pro riders on this particular descent lol.
Every-single-time I descent, my discs rub. It's SO ANNOYING. Yeah, it will go away in about 20 seconds when the rotors cool down after the turn, but many times I have to mess with the brakes by engaging/disengaging them multiple times because it will cause a slight rub. This is also with the most expensive shimano pads, and the XTR rotors that are currently $70-80 a piece.
Have a look at Magura and Hope callipers, both an upgrade on 11spd Shimano
Excellent points. 👍🏻🙂
I watched the whole video, one word wise! Great great job. Everyone that drove both systems knows the truth IF use their own head to think and trust their own feelings. Despite big companies production, at least all main elite frames producers keep offering rim brakes bikes.
Thank you kindly.
Thank you. The fight back has definitely started and you’re the biggest voice yet
“Never stop fighting until the fight is done!”
Brilliant analysis
Thank you 🙏🏻
Congratulations my friend. This is indeed the ultimate comparison video....and so truth...!!!!
I would like to add that another advantage is their much better sensitivity and this is due to the geometry and larger diameter of the wheel than the brake disc
That’s very nice of you to say, I’m very glad it has been so well received. 🙏🏻🙂
@@reginaldscot165 ...I am engineer and i can understand the physics much better than the averaγe rider.
The pro peleton is a showcase of carbon and discs as well as other useless technologies, purely for the potential of tremendous profits being made selling cheap plastic bikes with heavy steel parts. I ride a Reynolds 725 Steel Wabi singlespeed with rim brakes and a big smile. This is possible for me because at 77 I don't salute or bend over for a false image.
Good for you Sir! You don’t look 77. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165possibly an old photo...Its funny how we look younger in older photos😂
2017 half marathon in Kentucky.@@peterwillson1355
@peterwillson1355 That picture is in 2017 nearing the end of a Half Marathon in Kentucky.
Riding a Fuji Connoisseur made of Reynolds 725, nice stuff.
1. Price. You're right in general but missing details and cherry-picking facts. Pads are similarly priced. Look up K05 (no fins, 8 EUR on b24) and L05 (with fins 13 EUR on b24). Also you shouldn't just assume that shifters are more expensive as they are literally the same on mechanical disc systems, which are often found on entry level bikes. As per hoses/housing - no difference on mech disc. On a hydraulic system I've never had to actually replace a hose. Replacing housings, however, is part of regular rim brake maintenance. So hydro is more expensive to setup but cheaper to maintain. Fluid cost is a non-issue you only need a minuscule amount of it! 1L will literally last you a lifetime, even if you own multiple bikes, and chances are you already have some if you own an MTB.
And come on dude, try to retain some credibility. How do you even start comparing rotor wear (showing the price for a really expensive one on screen) to rim wear (singling out the cheapest possible AL rim)? There's obvious bias in your presentation. Even the cheapest rotors do a great job and you will almost never have to replace them (easily last for years). When it comes to rims, you kind of want to have good (think expensive) ones and you're saying it's OK to turn them into consumables? It's the hardest thing to replace at home, too. Almost nobody will be able to rebuild their wheel, so add some good cash that goes to the LBS for that job. Swapping a rotor, in contrast, only requires a cassette or BB tool and no particular expertise.
It feels that the example for high running costs you gave is carefully cherry-picked. I've had the opposite experience with wear. Never had to change a rotor (or rim) in my life, only wore through ONE set of disc brake pads over 4500 km with 60000 m of elevation in a steep Norway with rainy conditions and some extra luggage on my bike.
In comparison, a lighter bike setup on a shorter ( 1000 km ) and flatter trip through France also burnt through ONE set of pads (rim brake, pads that were supposed to work in wet conditions at the cost of longevity).
2. Weight - rim brakes all the way, agreed.
3. Wasting viewers' time.
4. Aero - I'm not an aero expert, but it feels that rim brakes should win this one. Agreed.
5. Maintenance - now that's where disc brakes won me over. Fit and forget. Bleed once a year (less than 50 ml oil is enough, and yes - it is messier). Swapping components is easy. Once setup properly, they are always consistent.
Rim brakes, on the other hand... I really wanted my rim brake bike to stop well so I spent a week researching the Internet on how to achieve this. Turns out I had to keep the cables and housings fresh and new (again yearly cycles), take particular care that housings are routed without sharp turns, regularly readjust the cable tension to compensate for pad wear, setup the pads at an angle, adjust the calipers so that both pads contact the rim simultaneously (tricky as they do NOT move the same way when you pull the cable, Ultegra 6800 here), keep an eye out that they don't start coming in contact with my tyre when they start wearing, lube all pivot points of the caliper, and most of all - ALWAYS keep the rims perfectly true. In which world is that a simpler system? There are so many more variables. It's only simpler to people with "experience" where experience actually means they know the particular system, have habits, and are not eager to learn new tricks.
At the end of the day the disc brakes still performed better than my Ultegra rim brakes, and way better than my older Tiagras. The levers there are just so much harder to squeeze.
6. Convenience - what???? Every single time you take a wheel on/off your rim brake caliper goes out of alignment unless you deflate the tyre. Disc brakes are consistent. Just keep a pair of cardboard pieces to put between the pads. Comparing pad compounds is also a one-sided research it seems. Rim brake pads also exists in many more variants than aluminium or carbon-compatible. How about for wet and dry conditions, for starters? Also, how TF do you fly to have to disconnect hydraulic lines? Please enlighten me as I've only been on 3 continents so far and I've obviously been doing it wrong. They won't let me go to Australia if I don't learn. You're just squeezing water out of stone here...
7. Frame design is something I know nothing about so I'm in the dark here.
8. Wasting more viewer time.
9. Wet braking - Disc brakes (even the cheapest ones) win hands down based on experience with 5 bikes - 2 rim and 3 disc brake ones, thousands of kms on each. In the dry they're evenly matched. The discs only have better modulation, but that not that essential. And you can always play with stopping power going up or down a rotor size. On rims, it is what it is. For the record, I have to squeeze my Tiagra levers to the bars (and to the point when the levers themselves flex) to lock a wheel with a grippy tire. I'd much rather not have that tension through my arms and keep them loose to descend more safely.
Did you really end your video suggesting that one should replace their rim brake pads or rims altogether? You just bashed disc brakes for solving pad contamination by replacing them a few minutes ago and talked a whole lot about costs. What happened to 20 EUR rims? The DT Swiss PR1400 OXIC wheelset you recommend comes at a RRP of 1150 EUR!!!
And finally, heating, is probably more prevalent on disc brakes, but worse on rim brakes. You somehow conveniently forgot to mention the issues that come with rim brakes. Some light TPU tubes are rated for disc brake use ONLY as heated rims can cause them to burst. That's anecdotally happened to the thinnest and lightest butyl tubes as well. On carbon rims, heat building up in the braking track has been known to cause delamination (irreversible damage) to the rims.
Bottom line: from my point of view, both systems obviously work, and I own bikes with rim as well as disc brakes, but I simply find disc brakes easier to use and to maintain at a point where they work well enough at all times (even a contaminated system often performs up to par and it's even self-cleansing at times). They also give me the freedom to splurge on wheels without feeling bad about it. I find both systems cheap enough to maintain. I don't enjoy riding my rim brake bike in the rain, especially on commutes, as it prolongs my reaction time in urban conditions and is hence less safe. Oh, yes, and I find the video to be somewhat biased and self-contradictory at times.
Ok so their Is obviously too much here to answer. I am also not sure how much of the video you understood as you seem confused by a number of points. Often you take a point I made, run with it in the wrong direction and then argue against that rather than the point I actually made. 🤷🏻♂️
So firstly about the DT Swiss Oxic, that’s literally the best aluminium wheel set ever made. So yes the price is high, but there are other cheaper options available. You seem to have searched for the most expensive price you could fine. I did a 10 second search on googling and the first result was “bike 24” and they are selling at 48% off. About €500. So yeah… go find a disc brake wheel set that light with a DT Swiss 46T 240 hub for that price and let me know.
About replacing the rim and pads, you are being disingenuous. What I said was, If your rim brakes aren’t working (stopping you effectively) then try changing the pads. (That’s way lower cost than disc) and if your rims are “worn out” then get some better rims.
Anyway, to your points:
1. You are cherry picking and being disingenuous again. It’s like you have really bad selective hearing? I compared expensive rotors to carbon rims. That’s a fair comparison. I also said “if” you have aluminium rims… and went on to talk about that. It’s not the same as me saying “the Dura ace rotor is way more expensive than this $20 aluminium rim.” I didn’t say that, it’s all in your head buddy.
Next is this thing about comparing mechanical shifters with mechanical shifters that you go on about? 🤷🏻♂️ I’m comparing the cost of rim mechanical Vs disc hydraulics. There wouldn’t be any point in comparing the cost of a disc mechanical shifter because as you rightly pointed out it’s the same thing. But everyone knows that already so it would be a waste of time. Even then the brake calliper at the end and the rotors are still more expensive than the rim equivalent.
2. Good.
3. That’s your opinion. And only Your opinion. That’s why I put time stamps for you to skip ahead. The fact you watched it shows you are A) not observant enough to see that I included time stamps. B) you wanted to hear that section. Thus proving it was a relevant section.
4. Good.
5. I have lived in the very wet and cold environment of the UK midlands and now in very hot and humid rainforest location near the sea and in both environments my rim brake maintenance consists of: washing my bike and cleaning the pads off with a file after the wash. 2 or 3 strokes does it. That’s it. I have never needed to change a cable because of damage or rust in nearly 30 years. If you have issues try using aluminium segmented cable housing like I do and wax your cable before installing it.
6. It seems to me that yes you lack experience (that’s not a criticism) The fact that somehow you knock your brake pads out of line every time you take your wheels out says to me the issue might be with you? Even if the rim brakes do come out of line it takes 2 seconds to realign. Literally put the wheel in and move the brake with your hand. It takes significantly longer to straighten a disc rotor. 🤦🏻♂️ Yes I work with a number of customers bikes and there are 100s of systems. And believe it or not when bikes are packed for shipment/travel many require the hydraulic lines to be disconnected and plugged. On your bike maybe you don’t need to, that’s great. But that’s not everyone.
7. You don’t need to be an expert, just look at the frame and use logic. 👍🏻
8. Same answer to the last time. Your opinion, not a fact, so skip it if you want.
9. I disagree that the modulation is better on disc. I already stated why in the video. Again, if you are squeezing your lever all the way to the bar on your tiagra then it sounds like the brakes are set up wrong/poorly. This would be in keeping with some of the other comments you have made. I think you need to ask assistance from someone who knows how to service your brakes correctly. A lot of your problems can be solved.
Like it or not . Rim brake era is over.
I think he doesn’t like brake disks from the start, maybe he hasn’t try them.
Found this vid by accident through the suggestion list on the right. So glad I did.
I have 5 bikes ranging from a MkI Specialized Roubaix, a 2007 Mechanical Disc road tourer, and 3 hydro disc MTBs.
I've been off riding for 3-4 years, and have recently come back through adding a (UK legal) mid-drive e-bike kit to the tourer for commuting (and hopefully) bikepacking again.
Whilst fitting and testing the tourer, I noticed the old BB7 mechanicals were perishing at the plastic bushings, so I ordered a new pair and up-sized the rotors by 20mm to counter the added motor and battery weight. So far, so good. All done and I'm off.
I got the rest of the bikes out of the shed this week to fettle the Roubaix (and the GFs Trek road) for a ride with the GF after being inspired by using the tourer again.
All 3 hydro MTBs had brakes that were either seized, leaking, squealing or had ineffective flapping levers.
They are going to cost a packet to service. I can do most of it myself though. Either that or they are all going mechanical disc (except maybe the free-ride bike).
Both rim brake road bikes: not a thing wrong.
Re-centred the callipers to the rims and that was it.
Perfectly effective braking from the off.
Never had road hydros, but after watching this vid, I doubt I ever will.
I even had an e-bike forum to-and-fro with a guy trying to convince me cable-pull hydros were the way to go with the tourer, but the stopping power I get with the mechanical discs is by far enough. Any more may lay me flat on the road this winter.
And the thought of doing roadside repairs to a hydro system are unthinkable.
Cheers Reginald.
Liked. Commented. And subscribed.
Thank you kindly! ❤️
Only time i would for sure trade rim brakes for discs is on rainy days on the mountains.
but why would you want to ride in the rain in the mountains? like seriously who does that
So before the discbrake,the uci tour only run at flatroad and goodday condition by rimbrake😂
In your magical world brake discs never get wet even in pouring rain.
Have you ever heard that the weather can change mid ride?
@@hooiken, @paterjan9733 We rode horses before, doesn't mean it was better in all conditions. You clearly never rode carbon rim brakes downhill when wet vs discs.
Riding down a hill in the Coromandel Peninsula in NZ, 500 metres to sea level: it was about 15 years ago, V Brakes and Cool Stop pads, but my hands cramped up from prolonged braking, necessitating a controlled lateral stop. My subsequent experience with discs is great modulated stopping power for much less force.
Cool, hope you stay for the rest. 😊
@@reginaldscot165 5dev have released a 3D printed titanium Aero frame
Never drag your brakes, disk or rim. Get some coaching on how to descend properly 😉. If your hands are cramping, your not doing it properly 😮
Dragging your brakes eventually means they won’t work due to overheating. Same as in a car really. If you can’t stop, it’s a bit dangerous!
@@KeithRobertson57 It's call kanes braking guys. I hope you all learnt this on your driving test. Works on all brakes and all vehicles, even bicycles. I have car, motorbike, hgv c +E. Works a dream. Stops over heating and allows for better braking. Basically it's manual ABS done by you👍
the classic issue with rim brakes (long ago) was with the heat causing tubular glue to weaken and for the tire to roll or to slip on the rim and pull the valve stem out. With clinchers, a hot rim can cause the rubber to soften a bit and not grip the rim as well. This can result in the tube pushing the tire out of the way and blowing. As would be expected, this was a bigger concern with tandems than single bikes. Tandems would sometimes combine rim brakes with a rear drum or disk brake.
Absolutely spot on. I started riding in the '80s and raced for many years. I have tried a hybrid with belt drive and disc brakes and, to be honest, the belt drive is very impressive but I hate the discs! All my road brakes are rim braked (including a new Passoni built last year) and virtually everything you have said in your video is replicating what I have told the many people that have criticised me! A couple of extra things though: a bicycle wheel without a disc brake on it is a thing of beauty and surely cycling is all about mechanical stuff...not hydraulics and batteries! 😂 Thanks for posting.
Agreed, belt drive is very interesting to me. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 The Gates is perfect for riding on mud covered winter roads. Ok, the Alfine 11 weighs a ton but it cuts the cleaning duties right down! A bit of a pain if you have a rear wheel puncture though...😂
Rim brakes (on aluminum wheels) are perfect for cyclists. Disc brakes are perfect for bike shops (to keep fixing them, so charge money to cyclists). Opinions written here are function of who post them (cyclist, or bike shop guy). Best video I ever saw on this subject.
Thank you kindly! ❤️
Nearly 10 years on disc, and 12k , more issues with the bottom bracket 😂
rim for road and commute. disc for mtb
i mean logically braking has to be limited by the grip of the tires
You forgot something important - the other end of the braking system. Having extra braking power also means you can achieve the same braking power with less force on the lever. But you need to pair it with good brake modulation, which is one of the benefits of disk brake. It also gives you more freedom in brake lever design. I hear this argument a lot from the "just as good" crowd. Yes, you technically don't need more braking power then your tires can handle. But it's also impossible to make a good and short one finger brake lever for a mountain bike if you don't have enough braking power at the wheel end of the system.
@@themoss7115 Low grip strength is associated with low testosterone levels. Suggest getting checked.
@@IlPinnacolo
Wow 😮 I hope you are trolling ! If not please stop with this absurd no nonsense
@@marcdaniels9079 Not a troll. 100% backed by several studies, look up in pubmed "Examining the association between grip strength and testosterone"
Hao-Tse Chiu et al. Aging Male. 2020 Dec
@@marcdaniels9079 pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31267800/
I have no trouble locking up rim brakes with normal testosterone levels. Suggest eating more protein, avoiding xeno/phytoestrogens, lifting weights, speaking to beautiful women, cross training in a combat sport. All proven to raise test. Over assisted hyd brakes will be unnecessary.
And, don’t forget, situating the front brake at the front wheel axle turns the forks into a lever and the fulcrum of that lever is right at the bottom of the the head tube and steerer, hence the constant problem with forks snapping unless you fit an asymmetrical head tube (thicker at the bottom) - extra design problems and re-engineered headsets. Cheers and thanks for a great video.
Correct 👍🏻
Reginald, you've convinced me. Let's go back to rim brakes !
Here, here, I'll drink 🍸 to that. Why fix what ain't broke?🤪
I'm a rim breaks guy myself.
@@FrankJohnson-r3e I've been a diehard disc brake guy... but idk now, rim brakes are sounding good again. It's the maintenance, the squeaking, and how easily pads/rotors are completely ruined by an accidental spray of the wrong kind.
I didn’t expect to change any minds, just spoke the truth and hope for the best. 😁
Good luck with that if you're buying new. Nobody makes rim brake frames any more, at least not for the mid to upper level bikes.
@@b1blancer1 in that case then, I'm SO glad I got my Masi Gran Corsa before they effed it up, offering only disc brakes 😊 phew 😅 😉
Used bikes it is from this point forward 👍 check. That is IF I ever need to replace it...BUT, I know, at least Litespeed is still making great bikes with rim brakes 😁😉
Brilliant thanks so much for the video
Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
Dear Reginald, everything You said, I'm completely agree with. I'm so happy with my rim brakes Specialized Tarmac. Thanks for your video.
Sounds like it’s a good bike. All the best tarmacs had rim brakes. 😁
I am so tired of all these upgrades and making things more complicated. It’s bad enough you can’t work on the auto anymore, I will not buy another bike I guess, I don’t race anymore so I don’t need all the light crap as well.
Agreed! 🙂👍🏻
2:44 I found most of arguments invalid. Liner and hose: these are bought once, it is not an "on cost". May be you should replace it in about 15 years, due to wear, but for such great period of time the difference between 8 bucks (you need about 2m in total) and 40 is negligible, and I just disregard the fact, that 20$/m is a huge overprice for a hydraulic hose. Pads cost: you just pick one expensive example on a disc brake side - and oh how it is expensive. Of course it is! But there are a bunch of brakes other than ultegra, and pads for them are as much affordable, as rim pads - about 3 to 5 USD for a pair. Fluid and cable: yet again, shimano is overpricing a lot its fluid (and sram does the same), and if you try something else - your warranty is void. However it is possible to find chemically compatible fluids, that are used in cars, and they are about 5-10 times cheaper. Perhaps in about 2-5 years we should find some chinese brakes on market, for which auto-fluids would be totally approved )). And of course you can just use mechanical brakes with the same cables, as rim brakes. So, this argument is partially valid. Rims and rotors: how on earth did you manage to wear out not just one rotor, but a lot of them faster than a rim? I never tried road rotors, maybe they are made of an aluminium foil? Just cant imagine any other valid reason for that fast wearing out. And again, 60 euros for a single rotor is insane price! why just not use mtb compatible design of a hub and mtb rotors? they are affordable and last long enough. And rim wearing is the main point, that makes disc brakes actually cheaper (especially mechs).
And about braking force. Applying less force on disc brakes is something, you should be used to, before you will be able to operate them safe and accurate. It is a drawback, and it is an advantage on the other side. (I believe that your brakes totally clamping the rotor before you can feel it is a "bug", maybe air in the system, or something else. Definitely brakes should not behave that way!)
Never had hydraulic brakes on a road bike, but on a MTB they allow me to apply just necessary force, I definitely feel how much force is applied to the rotor (and not by the deceleration, it is all on the handle), however it takes a bit of time to get used to the brakes, because forces on the handle are totally different, than on a rim brakes. And I think on a road bike it should be the same way, otherwise tell me what is wrong with a road bikes.
And applying less force on a handle is crucial feature, first - it allows you to dose the force more accurately, because you dont need to squish the handle too much (and 70-80% of max force, whis is needed to apply max breaking is too much), and second, your hand will be exposed to less fatigue (again, 70-80% of max force is too much and may cause fatigue issues, if you apply this force too ling or too often or both on a long and steep descent), and with less fatigue you will be able to safely operate the brake for longer. It may happen that you wont be forced to have a 5 minute stop to make your fingers able to move again, because you applied brakes too much and too often on a descent.
Finally, I found all af this is still not enough to switch my road bike to a disc version, but I think you have a bit of prejudice against disc brakes, at least in that video. They have their pros and cons, but you should not mix them and make everithing sound like a flaw.
Too long, didnt read
“I never had discs on road bikes only MTB.” Well that’s the end of that argument! 😅 If the cost isn’t a problem why do my “new to disc brake” customers keep complaining about the increased price of parts and services? 😁
@@reginaldscot165 Never said, that I never had discs on a road bike, please dont distort my words. Only tried mechs, not hydraulic. And it still need less force and is faster due to significantly shorter travel distance for pads. And about complaining --- you just do not see the ones, who are not complaining (of course you dont, how should you?) At least TRP spyre parts are not expensive, brakes have zero issues with fluid (because there is no fluid), and service is quite simple. For me its the same complaint as of the owner of unique and rare bike, that compatible parts are expensive and hard to find. Its a pity that shimano is going that way --- but I think you should consider it and take appropriate action (that case --- just stop buying shimano). Again, plenty of affordable brakes and parts on market, its not that its "shimano or nothing".
Those Shimano-Icetech Rotors and Pads are insanely high wear on the rotor and high price on the pad. I would suggest solid 1-piece design Disks like the Trickstuff Daechle HD, or TRP Rotors and some good aftermarket pads. Then you don't burn through several hundred Dollars a year on wear and tear.
On the other hand I would trust my Shimano Oil several years until I would change the Oil, unless they need a bleed.
Where I have to agree though, is the high price for hydraulic hoses, I had the same issue due to a kink in my Brakeline. However, I had issues with mechanical brake hoses before and much more often.
@@reginaldscot165 You are starting to behave disingenuous here Reg. Every time a commenter comes up with valid criticism you start distorting facts or come with ad hominems. It's almost as if you yourself are trying to push a narrative regardless of facts and data.....
Very well made video. Thanks for making it. You sum my experience with rim vs disc on road bikes. Owned serval. I have spent so much more time and money on trying solve issues with my disc brakes. Thats why went back to rim brake before they were no longer available in the market.
Thanks for sharing your experience. 🙂🙏🏻
I can't wait for Bluetooth disk e-brakes, lol. and self-driving bikes.
and yet the philosophy of the bicycle is "simplicity" and "sustainability", NOT needless "modernization" and reform/ revisionism.
I know disk brakes, as i have been riding motorcycles since ..1993
and i am a front brake person (brake with the front / stabilise with the rear)
i prefer rim brakes on my under 10kg bicycle.
if you watch MotoGP or formula1 you know that most accidents happen because of wrong use of brakes.
not that disk brakes are bad, they are pretty good, but even the pros in moto sports lose their cool and create an accident
So you really have to know what you are doing.
Rim brakes give you a better feeling on braking, rim brakes are just larger disk brakes -better control on breaking.
Disk brakes are useful in performance downhill (and only there) where you have the widest tyres (very important) and great acceleration (immensely beyond what any other cyclist experiences).
"but if its good for them downhill pros, then its good for me" -NO :
you don't want to use a chainsaw to make Sushi fillet
You don't wash your teeth with bleach chlorine
or maybe you do
Ha ha great comment. 🙂👍🏻
FYI, in 2019, Shimano filed a patent for bicycle ABS brakes. They have released "Shimano ABS by Blubrake", now available in Europe for eBikes. I wonder how long it will take for ABS to become yet another gimmick for road bikes ;-)
I wish SRAM makes latest group set with rim brakes. Wireless shifting with cable brakes would make my older rim brake bikes more sexy.
It would be nice if they made any new rim brake stuff. 🫤
It doesn't make any sense for them to offer rim brake groupset.
If you want to sell something you need to sell as many items as possible. Designing something that only view would buy - no chance.
@@reginaldscot165 Most especially WHEELS which are not a mile wide, and possibly offer a Campy 10 speed compatible freehub along with an carbon aero section combined with an ALLOY braking surface! 😉
Great video and well done for having the courage to entre the debate. Something I believe you did not mention was spoke triangulation and therefore wheel strength. Rim brakes enable a better angle as the hub flanges can be speed further apart and more symmetrical as a disc brake does not need to be accommodated. May be less spokes are neede on a rim brake and a lighter wheel results. Just a thought and would welcome your comment.
That’s a good point.
Just ride a fixie. No brakes to worry about. Lighter and more aero than rim brakes. No maintenance. No pliers needed. Who needs brakes anyway, they only slow you down right...
Agreed, if I was a real man I’d get a fixed gear!
Bike? Too much weight, just walk 😂