Thanks Ray for the in-depth setup! I just installed the same unit and figuring out the setup process. I am setting my cougar up the same way as you have, no since in reinventing the wheel. If you have any lessons learned / tips anything would be great. I really enjoy your content. Thanks! Hope you and the wife are enjoying AZ, I grew up in Tucson AMR miss living there.
Thanks, Terry, this post, and video explain the full system as it sits now - www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/ It's served our boondocking needs for a few years now. The only things I changed was to replace the flexible ground panel with a rigid Renogy like on the roof and add a catastrophic fuse onto the battery terminal. www.loveyourrv.com/replacing-damaged-portable-solar-panel-plus-new-mounting/ www.loveyourrv.com/installed-catastrophic-fuse-rv-battery-bank/ Cheers! Ray
You're welcome.Lots of ways to skin a cat with a solar power system, so lots of opinions out there, but I do like Handy Bob's common sense approach and he has been out there and lived it for many years. My goal has been to get as good of a system as I could for the money spent. I'm at approx $1600-$1800 now including batteries.
SC-2030/TM2030 combo, best set up ever for a small solar install, plus Ralph at Bogartindustries is such a nice guy, I sent him the webpage from my batteries (since they weren't listed, and he sent me back the custom settings for L4. Have have this setup for a year now and absolutely no complaints. Love being able to see exactly whats going on with my system. I wish I hadn't wasted my money with a cheap on off charge controller and gone with this right out of the gate.
Like always, another educational video. I retired earlier this year with 34 years under my belt as an electrical troubleshooter for a large paper company, I don't think I could put anything like that together without a schematic. Looks nice and something I would like to put in our fifth wheel someday. Did I miss the video on the update to the battery bank?
Thanks. I had upgraded the batteries back home before we headed south with the plan of adding more solar once we got down here. Shipping is much cheaper for those items when we are in the states. - www.loveyourrv.com/upgrading-my-rv-battery-bank-and-12-volt-system/
Great info man! I just got my battery monitor 2030 and my shunt and Your vid will help a lot in the installation. It will be in a sailboat but I guess is not much a difference. Anyways thank you again for the video. Miguel from Clearwater FL
Cool! I've pretty well completed my off grid system, work well this last winter in the desert boondocking. You can find a look at the final install here. www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/ Includes a diagram and a video tour. Cheers! Ray
Real nice videos, been watching for awhile now, I live in upstate NY so my rig is in storage, I need to finish my solar stup in the spring, I like how you present the info very easy to follow along.
Hi ray, I’m still a bit new to all this about solar but I got from a friend the TriMetric monitor and I’m not shure why you didn’t connect the alternator to the shunt as it says in the manual? If I could conect my isolator instead that would be much easer to do. Cheers
Mine is installed in a trailer, so no altenator. Here is a link to the install manual - www.bogartengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/TM%202030%20INSTRUCTIONS_041018.pdf?boxtype=pdf&g=false&s=false&s2=false&r=wide
Here is a link to the technical manual - www.bogartengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/SC2030%20Technical%20Manual.pdf 6.3 Description and graph of SC-2030 charging profiles Standalone operation-without the TM-2030: With the TM-2030 not connected, there are only two charging selections available (by two jumpers you set on the SC-2030 circuit board.) They allow choice for "AGM or liquid electrolyte" and "12 or 24V" system. These are intended to be for "backup" charging if for any reason the TM-2030 is not connected. When the TM2030 is connected, these values are ignored.
Great video and great solar series overall! Really happy to have found your channel. What didn't you like about the Renogy charge controller? What was its absorption voltage setpoint?
Thanks! The Renogy controller that came in the kit was very basic, worth only about 20 dollars. worked OK but very limited as far as settings go. You can see all it's spec here - renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PWM1030CC-Manual.pdf So when I had enough cash I upgraded to the Bogart SC2030. With the Bogart controller and it's companion Trimetric monitor I have access to manually set all the charging voltages, so can tailor its operation to my specific battery type and brand and my unique charging needs. Also, it has a manual equalization feature I can run every few months to keep my battery bank operating at peak performance. Finally, it came with a temperature compensation. Cheers Ray
+Love Your RV Thanks for the info. I'm sizing a ~200w system for a small camper and think the Bogart gear is the way to go. I'd rather just do it once though.
It's still nice, but the water restrictions are getting pretty bad. 3 years ago they encouraged grass watering, even letting you have a sprinkler. You could wash the rig anytime, last year there was no watering of grass and rig washing was before 10 am or after sundown, this year absolutely no watering of any kind. Place is getting pretty dusty and less and less grass, more dirt. Has a nice pool with updated stuff and the palms are cool to look at, they get watered since they are part of the Date farm
My only comment is that the choice of a PWM controller is a very poor choice. The argument on the Bogart page is mostly not consistent with the facts of the way MPPT controllers work. In full sun when charging in bulk mode your controller won't give you more than about 310 watts of charging from your 400 watts of panels, whereas a quality MPPT controller would give you more like 390 watts. In other words the PWM controller is about 80% as efficient as the MPPT controller. When the batteries are low, the loss will be worse. The only time the PWM controller comes even close to the MPPT controller is in low light situations when the panel voltage is low, but then the amp output is also very low so that is a very minor factor. The price difference between the Bogart PWM controller and a quality MPPT 30 amp controller is only about $100. If you buy a reputable chinese MPPT controller the price difference is $20 or less.
If you size your battery bank properly for usage, ie. enough amp hours to last a few days without sun, you will spend hardly any time in bulk mode when sunny. We usually hit sunrise with 85% capacity. Most of the day my PWM is charging in absorption or float. I don't see a need for a more complex and expensive MPPT on a small solar system like mine. Keep it simple I say. I'm quite pleased with the system as it sits, does the job, we happily are out boondocking for months at a time, rarely have to run a generator.
Bulk mode charging is the best case scenario for a PWM controller because the charging voltage is highest. The loss is larger in float mode, although the low amp draw likely negates that since you are unlikely to use the available current in float or absorption.
@@jamesrodgers6472 some of the Chinese controllers have been found to be reliable. You will notice I said "reputable" Chinese controller. You have to do some research to find a good one. Personally my systems are 100% Victron MPPT not Chinese.
I thought a little extra headroom would be helpful so it didn't blow breakers falsely but only if it was a true problem. Handy Bob used 40s in this install so I figured that would be a good figure for safety but not interrupt normal operations. handybobsolar.wordpress.com/2015-the-trimetric-2030-perfect/
Some reading for you from the engineer who designed the SC2030 PWM controller C1. The debate rages: which controller is best PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) or MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Why did you choose PWM technology instead of MPPT for your SC-2030 Solar Charger? Click for answer A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances-it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT-which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current-meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge-but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it-for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage-which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology.
These PWM chargers are only about 70% efficient they truncate the voltage above the batteries full charge state about 12.76 volts for a 12 volt battery system. Those solar panels put out around 18 volts at 5.56 amps (give or take) in order to make 100 watts... When the charge controller truncates the voltage from 18 volts to 12.76 volts you loose about 25 to 30 watts per panel, Thus neutering your panel from a 100 watt panel to a 70 watt. A mppt charge controller converts the maximum voltage of the panels down to a more usable charge voltage and at same time increasing the current so you are able to use. So instead of having 5.56 amps you will have about 7.44 amps. The pwm controllers are around 70% efficient and a mppt charge controller is around 95% or better at converting the solar panel power to a usable charge voltage. With four panels your loosing over 100 watts by using inefficient and antiquated PWM technology; however you did a very good install of the system.
IMHO, It's not simple as you make it out. I've had great performance out of my system. Serves our needs, I have 500 watts now and usually full recharged by noon. From the Bogart Engineering FAQ - www.bogartengineering.com/support/faq.html C1. The debate rages: which controller is best PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) or MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Why did you choose PWM technology instead of MPPT for your SC-2030 Solar Charger? Click for answer A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances-it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT-which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current-meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge-but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it-for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage-which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology.
None of these panels are going to be matched to the batteries. 12 volt batteries use 18 volt panels. 24 volt batteries use 36 volt panels, 48 volt battery system will use 72 series volt solar panels. the only way to get close to the full capacity is to use MPPT. Now if your charge controller is meeting your needs then you have no reason to upgrade. There is no condition I have read here that makes the use of a PWM controller a better option unless one cannot afford a MPPT Controller The article you quoted looks like it was written by someone that was stretching the truth to sell there product. Years ago buck converter mppt controllers were not really available and too expensive. but they are getting much more affordable now. I don't blame you for not wanting to switch to an MPPT after all you already have yours installed and it works for you. I just wanted others to see the advantage of an MPPT controller.
I chose to spend my dollars elsewhere in the system versus the extra cost of an MPPT. In a small system that made sense, once a system gets over say 500 watts I can start to see the merit in an MPPT. Or if budget is less of a concern to a person. With our usage patterns, we aren't heavy power users, we rarely draw our battery bank down less the 80-85%, mainly because I had the spare cash saved from not going with an MPPT to have a bigger battery bank. ;) Most days my solar controller is actually spending the majority of its time charging in absorption mode where an MPPT acts exactly the same as a PWM since the lead-acid batteries limit the current intake in that phase. People who have small capacity battery bank or routinely draw the battery bank down a lot so they spend a bunch of time on bulk charge mode or use a ton of juice for things during the day may benefit from an MPPT more. But to say MPPT is always the better solution is just not true, IMHO PS. If I do occasionally run the batteries down really low for some reason, I can always fire my generator and shove 50-60 amps charge into them for an hour or two until they hit absorption, then let the solar controller take over.
jimthvac100 I have a question but couldn't seem to PM you. Could you tell me your opinion on this? Im installing 3 100 watt panels on my RV and have 3 100 ah batts. I ve been told 3 batts is too many and itll be difficult to top them off with the panels I have. THEN I was told 'you can never be too skinny, or rich, or have too many batts" What do you think? Should I go with 2 or 3?
Assuming you are talking about a 12 volt system using two or three batteries in parallel. I suggest you go with two large deep cycle 6 volt batteries in series. The larger plates can handle a deeper discharge than the 12 volt batteries. I would get the largest AH rating that would fit in your battery compartment. Remember you will only be using about 50% to 40% of your lead acid batteries. So if you have a total of 200 AH's of battery capacity you will only use up to 100 AH of them. If you try to use more than that you will ruin the batteries. so for 12.7 volts at 100 AH of usable capacity you would need about 400 watts in full sun to charge them back up. (If you let them get that low) You may want more solar power to have available for use while these are being charged too. So it really depends on how many watt hours you end up using.
Not sure, never tried, but I believe our microwave draws more than 1000 watts or very close. I just have the Inverter wired to one dedicated AC outlet near our TV. We use it mainly to power the TV, computers and charge stuff. If I need to run the microwave or toaster I just fire up our 2000w portable generator. But I pretty well cook everything with the LP gas stove or BBQ when out dry camping. The bulk of our boondocking is done in the southern desert and evenings are usually cool so it's nice to have things heating up in the oven.
We have a motomaster 3500w moidifed sine wave inverter mounted in our shore power cord bay. I have a dedicated outlet for it or i can plug the shore power cord in with an adapter. We rarely do any boondocking unless we are at a nascar race. We have the onboard genny and 2 champion cubes with a parallel kit for those occasions. When we travel i usually plug in the shore power cord to run our bar fridge and the microwave. But I'm worried that the modifed sine wave will hurt something since it is running the whole motorhome.
Many people seem to run the modified without issues. Sometimes weird things happen like a drill charger won't work or something. Some of the new microprocessor controlled power supplies in things don't like the modified wave. The reason we went with a pure/true sine wave is its main job is to power my wife's big iMac desktop. Since it is expensive I wanted peace of mind that the power to it would be clean. We actually plug her into it even on shore power. Figure the output of the inverter is more reliable than the usual campground power. The batteries and inverter act as UPS and surge guard since it's on its own separate circuit. Here is a pretty good write up in the two types of inverters - www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech1-universal.pdf Cheers Ray
Thank You.Holding up very well and we use the heck out of as full timers. I would definitely be looking at it if in the same price range again. But, if I could spend more I may lend towards something from Northwood like an Artic Fox for the better 4 season installation and a more solid build for boondocking. Something like this one with the off road chassis - northwoodmfg.com/arctic-fox-2/arctic-fox-29-5t/ Check out the feature list. Has a very similar layout to our Cougar, which is something we really like about it. Of course, it is a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison because of the price. :)
Yes, I've installed breaker I can turn on and off. Even so, my solar panels only put on a max 18 volts DC. I have them hooked in parallel, the voltage is quite low. Here is my system as it is now - www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/
Just curious, with such an extensive upgrade, why did you choose to stay with the PWM instead of a MPPT charge controller? Thanks for sharing your vids.
I touched on this a bit in the blog post but don't want to set off a big PWM vs MPPT war. Both have pros and cons in my mind. I just believe it was better for my particular setup. More cost effective, I could spend my dollars elsewhere in the system. Also, PWM are very reliable since they are so simple. Check out the Bogart FAQ for more in-depth reading on the subject - bogartengineering.com/support/faq/ Click C. then C1. Cheers Ray
Ray is it possible or should I say easy!! to up the amount of charge voltage to batteries from charge controller without doing a equalize cycle. thinking of about .2 volts 14.8 to 15.0 thoughts?
Yes the SC2030 controller is completely configurable using the Trimetric. All the different charge phases can be manually set. So the absorption could be set to 15 volts if required. You would have to watch not to overcharge the batteries and cause then to boil over or maybe cause the inverter to shut down due to too high of an input voltage.
Thanks Ray for the in-depth setup! I just installed the same unit and figuring out the setup process. I am setting my cougar up the same way as you have, no since in reinventing the wheel. If you have any lessons learned / tips anything would be great. I really enjoy your content. Thanks! Hope you and the wife are enjoying AZ, I grew up in Tucson AMR miss living there.
Thanks, Terry, this post, and video explain the full system as it sits now - www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/ It's served our boondocking needs for a few years now. The only things I changed was to replace the flexible ground panel with a rigid Renogy like on the roof and add a catastrophic fuse onto the battery terminal.
www.loveyourrv.com/replacing-damaged-portable-solar-panel-plus-new-mounting/
www.loveyourrv.com/installed-catastrophic-fuse-rv-battery-bank/ Cheers! Ray
Thanks for the video! Looking to add solar to our 5th and have been reading Handy Bob extensively/repeatedly trying to get it to sink in.
You're welcome.Lots of ways to skin a cat with a solar power system, so lots of opinions out there, but I do like Handy Bob's common sense approach and he has been out there and lived it for many years. My goal has been to get as good of a system as I could for the money spent. I'm at approx $1600-$1800 now including batteries.
SC-2030/TM2030 combo, best set up ever for a small solar install, plus Ralph at Bogartindustries is such a nice guy, I sent him the webpage from my batteries (since they weren't listed, and he sent me back the custom settings for L4. Have have this setup for a year now and absolutely no complaints. Love being able to see exactly whats going on with my system.
I wish I hadn't wasted my money with a cheap on off charge controller and gone with this right out of the gate.
Yes, I've used it now for two months of straight boondocking, love it also. :)
And ditto on Ralph. Great guy to deal with.
Like always, another educational video. I retired earlier this year with 34 years under my belt as an electrical troubleshooter for a large paper company, I don't think I could put anything like that together without a schematic. Looks nice and something I would like to put in our fifth wheel someday. Did I miss the video on the update to the battery bank?
Thanks. I had upgraded the batteries back home before we headed south with the plan of adding more solar once we got down here. Shipping is much cheaper for those items when we are in the states. - www.loveyourrv.com/upgrading-my-rv-battery-bank-and-12-volt-system/
LOL at checking the solar from the bathroom. Commode central. Appreciate the video and the shunt wiring.
:)
Great info man! I just got my battery monitor 2030 and my shunt and Your vid will help a lot in the installation. It will be in a sailboat but I guess is not much a difference. Anyways thank you again for the video.
Miguel from Clearwater FL
Cool! I've pretty well completed my off grid system, work well this last winter in the desert boondocking. You can find a look at the final install here. www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/ Includes a diagram and a video tour. Cheers! Ray
Real nice videos, been watching for awhile now, I live in upstate NY so my rig is in storage, I need to finish my solar stup in the spring, I like how you present the info very easy to follow along.
Thanks for the comment, that's really nice to hear. Hopefully, spring will come early. Cheers Ray
Hi ray, I’m still a bit new to all this about solar but I got from a friend the TriMetric monitor and I’m not shure why you didn’t connect the alternator to the shunt as it says in the manual? If I could conect my isolator instead that would be much easer to do. Cheers
Mine is installed in a trailer, so no altenator.
Here is a link to the install manual - www.bogartengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/TM%202030%20INSTRUCTIONS_041018.pdf?boxtype=pdf&g=false&s=false&s2=false&r=wide
Should both of the jumpers on the SC2030 be removed when using it with the TM2030?
Here is a link to the technical manual - www.bogartengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/SC2030%20Technical%20Manual.pdf
6.3 Description and graph of SC-2030 charging profiles
Standalone operation-without the TM-2030: With the TM-2030 not connected, there are only two charging selections
available (by two jumpers you set on the SC-2030 circuit board.) They allow choice for "AGM or liquid electrolyte" and "12 or 24V" system. These are intended to be for "backup" charging if for any reason the TM-2030 is not connected. When the TM2030 is connected, these values are ignored.
Great video and great solar series overall! Really happy to have found your channel. What didn't you like about the Renogy charge controller? What was its absorption voltage setpoint?
Thanks! The Renogy controller that came in the kit was very basic, worth only about 20 dollars. worked OK but very limited as far as settings go. You can see all it's spec here - renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/PWM1030CC-Manual.pdf
So when I had enough cash I upgraded to the Bogart SC2030. With the Bogart controller and it's companion Trimetric monitor I have access to manually set all the charging voltages, so can tailor its operation to my specific battery type and brand and my unique charging needs. Also, it has a manual equalization feature I can run every few months to keep my battery bank operating at peak performance. Finally, it came with a temperature compensation.
Cheers Ray
+Love Your RV Thanks for the info. I'm sizing a ~200w system for a small camper and think the Bogart gear is the way to go. I'd rather just do it once though.
So far I'm happy with it after nearly 3 months of constant use.
good info... I stayed at that Park before.....
It's still nice, but the water restrictions are getting pretty bad. 3 years ago they encouraged grass watering, even letting you have a sprinkler. You could wash the rig anytime, last year there was no watering of grass and rig washing was before 10 am or after sundown, this year absolutely no watering of any kind. Place is getting pretty dusty and less and less grass, more dirt. Has a nice pool with updated stuff and the palms are cool to look at, they get watered since they are part of the Date farm
+Love Your RV yea i stayed at Indian Wells in La Quinta last month... it was empty... no rigs.....and same no water
Love
Once again great video for me to learn. Thks John wino
My only comment is that the choice of a PWM controller is a very poor choice. The argument on the Bogart page is mostly not consistent with the facts of the way MPPT controllers work. In full sun when charging in bulk mode your controller won't give you more than about 310 watts of charging from your 400 watts of panels, whereas a quality MPPT controller would give you more like 390 watts. In other words the PWM controller is about 80% as efficient as the MPPT controller. When the batteries are low, the loss will be worse. The only time the PWM controller comes even close to the MPPT controller is in low light situations when the panel voltage is low, but then the amp output is also very low so that is a very minor factor. The price difference between the Bogart PWM controller and a quality MPPT 30 amp controller is only about $100. If you buy a reputable chinese MPPT controller the price difference is $20 or less.
If you size your battery bank properly for usage, ie. enough amp hours to last a few days without sun, you will spend hardly any time in bulk mode when sunny. We usually hit sunrise with 85% capacity.
Most of the day my PWM is charging in absorption or float. I don't see a need for a more complex and expensive MPPT on a small solar system like mine. Keep it simple I say.
I'm quite pleased with the system as it sits, does the job, we happily are out boondocking for months at a time, rarely have to run a generator.
Bulk mode charging is the best case scenario for a PWM controller because the charging voltage is highest. The loss is larger in float mode, although the low amp draw likely negates that since you are unlikely to use the available current in float or absorption.
No thanks on the Chinese controller.
@@jamesrodgers6472 some of the Chinese controllers have been found to be reliable. You will notice I said "reputable" Chinese controller. You have to do some research to find a good one. Personally my systems are 100% Victron MPPT not Chinese.
I saw you put a 40 amp breaker in front and after your charge controller. Why not 30 to match the charge controller?
I thought a little extra headroom would be helpful so it didn't blow breakers falsely but only if it was a true problem. Handy Bob used 40s in this install so I figured that would be a good figure for safety but not interrupt normal operations. handybobsolar.wordpress.com/2015-the-trimetric-2030-perfect/
Thanks for the reply, safe travels
Great video
MPPT should get you about 30% more. I would of gone with that instead.
Some reading for you from the engineer who designed the SC2030 PWM controller
C1. The debate rages: which controller is best PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) or MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Why did you choose PWM technology instead of MPPT for your SC-2030 Solar Charger? Click for answer
A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances-it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT-which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current-meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge-but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it-for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage-which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology.
Very informational videos thank you
You're welcome. Cheers! Ray
These PWM chargers are only about 70% efficient they truncate the voltage above the batteries full charge state about 12.76 volts for a 12 volt battery system. Those solar panels put out around 18 volts at 5.56 amps (give or take) in order to make 100 watts... When the charge controller truncates the voltage from 18 volts to 12.76 volts you loose about 25 to 30 watts per panel, Thus neutering your panel from a 100 watt panel to a 70 watt. A mppt charge controller converts the maximum voltage of the panels down to a more usable charge voltage and at same time increasing the current so you are able to use. So instead of having 5.56 amps you will have about 7.44 amps. The pwm controllers are around 70% efficient and a mppt charge controller is around 95% or better at converting the solar panel power to a usable charge voltage. With four panels your loosing over 100 watts by using inefficient and antiquated PWM technology; however you did a very good install of the system.
IMHO, It's not simple as you make it out. I've had great performance out of my system. Serves our needs, I have 500 watts now and usually full recharged by noon.
From the Bogart Engineering FAQ - www.bogartengineering.com/support/faq.html
C1. The debate rages: which controller is best PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) or MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Why did you choose PWM technology instead of MPPT for your SC-2030 Solar Charger? Click for answer
A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances-it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT-which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current-meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge-but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it-for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage-which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology.
None of these panels are going to be matched to the batteries. 12 volt batteries use 18 volt panels. 24 volt batteries use 36 volt panels, 48 volt battery system will use 72 series volt solar panels. the only way to get close to the full capacity is to use MPPT. Now if your charge controller is meeting your needs then you have no reason to upgrade. There is no condition I have read here that makes the use of a PWM controller a better option unless one cannot afford a MPPT Controller The article you quoted looks like it was written by someone that was stretching the truth to sell there product. Years ago buck converter mppt controllers were not really available and too expensive. but they are getting much more affordable now. I don't blame you for not wanting to switch to an MPPT after all you already have yours installed and it works for you. I just wanted others to see the advantage of an MPPT controller.
I chose to spend my dollars elsewhere in the system versus the extra cost of an MPPT. In a small system that made sense, once a system gets over say 500 watts I can start to see the merit in an MPPT. Or if budget is less of a concern to a person.
With our usage patterns, we aren't heavy power users, we rarely draw our battery bank down less the 80-85%, mainly because I had the spare cash saved from not going with an MPPT to have a bigger battery bank. ;) Most days my solar controller is actually spending the majority of its time charging in absorption mode where an MPPT acts exactly the same as a PWM since the lead-acid batteries limit the current intake in that phase.
People who have small capacity battery bank or routinely draw the battery bank down a lot so they spend a bunch of time on bulk charge mode or use a ton of juice for things during the day may benefit from an MPPT more. But to say MPPT is always the better solution is just not true, IMHO
PS. If I do occasionally run the batteries down really low for some reason, I can always fire my generator and shove 50-60 amps charge into them for an hour or two until they hit absorption, then let the solar controller take over.
jimthvac100 I have a question but couldn't seem to PM you. Could you tell me your opinion on this?
Im installing 3 100 watt panels on my RV and have 3 100 ah batts. I ve been told 3 batts is too many and itll be difficult to top them off with the panels I have. THEN I was told 'you can never be too skinny, or rich, or have too many batts" What do you think? Should I go with 2 or 3?
Assuming you are talking about a 12 volt system using two or three batteries in parallel. I suggest you go with two large deep cycle 6 volt batteries in series. The larger plates can handle a deeper discharge than the 12 volt batteries. I would get the largest AH rating that would fit in your battery compartment. Remember you will only be using about 50% to 40% of your lead acid batteries. So if you have a total of 200 AH's of battery capacity you will only use up to 100 AH of them. If you try to use more than that you will ruin the batteries. so for 12.7 volts at 100 AH of usable capacity you would need about 400 watts in full sun to charge them back up. (If you let them get that low) You may want more solar power to have available for use while these are being charged too. So it really depends on how many watt hours you end up using.
Great video Ray. You have a very nice and clean install. As a fellow Canadian i Love the comment about time for a beer :) Keep up the good work.
Thanks! As long as I don't have the beer while hooking up wiring things are good. :)
+Love Your RV we agree beer after work. Does your 1000w inverter run your microwave without any issues or concerns?
Not sure, never tried, but I believe our microwave draws more than 1000 watts or very close. I just have the Inverter wired to one dedicated AC outlet near our TV. We use it mainly to power the TV, computers and charge stuff.
If I need to run the microwave or toaster I just fire up our 2000w portable generator. But I pretty well cook everything with the LP gas stove or BBQ when out dry camping. The bulk of our boondocking is done in the southern desert and evenings are usually cool so it's nice to have things heating up in the oven.
We have a motomaster 3500w moidifed sine wave inverter mounted in our shore power cord bay. I have a dedicated outlet for it or i can plug the shore power cord in with an adapter. We rarely do any boondocking unless we are at a nascar race. We have the onboard genny and 2 champion cubes with a parallel kit for those occasions. When we travel i usually plug in the shore power cord to run our bar fridge and the microwave. But I'm worried that the modifed sine wave will hurt something since it is running the whole motorhome.
Many people seem to run the modified without issues. Sometimes weird things happen like a drill charger won't work or something. Some of the new microprocessor controlled power supplies in things don't like the modified wave.
The reason we went with a pure/true sine wave is its main job is to power my wife's big iMac desktop. Since it is expensive I wanted peace of mind that the power to it would be clean. We actually plug her into it even on shore power. Figure the output of the inverter is more reliable than the usual campground power. The batteries and inverter act as UPS and surge guard since it's on its own separate circuit.
Here is a pretty good write up in the two types of inverters - www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech1-universal.pdf
Cheers Ray
Enjoying all your hard work. Thanks for sharing. How is your cougar holding up? Thinking of buying one. Would you buy another one? Or something else?
Thank You.Holding up very well and we use the heck out of as full timers. I would definitely be looking at it if in the same price range again.
But, if I could spend more I may lend towards something from Northwood like an Artic Fox for the better 4 season installation and a more solid build for boondocking.
Something like this one with the off road chassis - northwoodmfg.com/arctic-fox-2/arctic-fox-29-5t/ Check out the feature list. Has a very similar layout to our Cougar, which is something we really like about it.
Of course, it is a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison because of the price. :)
Hello Ray, Do you have a cut off switch between the panels and the charge controller? How do you prevent from getting zapped if you don't? Thanks
Yes, I've installed breaker I can turn on and off. Even so, my solar panels only put on a max 18 volts DC. I have them hooked in parallel, the voltage is quite low. Here is my system as it is now - www.loveyourrv.com/diy-rv-boondocking-power-system/
Hi Ray, Are you still happy with the set up, or would you change anything?
Yep, still happy, I have 500 watts feeding it now, and it's doing the job well for us.
I am getting ready to install 500 watts in my toy hauler, Bogart sc2030 - tm 2030 with all the accessory's. Thanks
Just curious, with such an extensive upgrade, why did you choose to stay with the PWM instead of a MPPT charge controller? Thanks for sharing your vids.
I touched on this a bit in the blog post but don't want to set off a big PWM vs MPPT war. Both have pros and cons in my mind.
I just believe it was better for my particular setup. More cost effective, I could spend my dollars elsewhere in the system. Also, PWM are very reliable since they are so simple.
Check out the Bogart FAQ for more in-depth reading on the subject - bogartengineering.com/support/faq/ Click C. then C1.
Cheers Ray
More Beagle please. Everyone knows RVs and dogs go together
Thanks, Ray. Becoming complex. Hope you don't change rigs anytime soon. ;)
haha, ya. Luckily my wife loves the trailer and she gets attached to things so looks like we'll have her for a while yet.
Boondock vids! An idea for you is to do a "Day in the life of boondocking" vid, with clips from the whole day.
Good idea! after Christmas we head out for a few months of mainly boondocking, should be able to put something together. :)
Did I hear a goat at the end of the video? Nice video. 14.8, is that the battery bank float voltage setting?
haha! Thanks
No, the setting for the absorption voltage.
Ray is it possible or should I say easy!! to up the amount of charge voltage to batteries from charge controller without doing a equalize cycle. thinking of about .2 volts 14.8 to 15.0 thoughts?
Yes the SC2030 controller is completely configurable using the Trimetric. All the different charge phases can be manually set.
So the absorption could be set to 15 volts if required. You would have to watch not to overcharge the batteries and cause then to boil over or maybe cause the inverter to shut down due to too high of an input voltage.
Hey...look what I found.