I'd always make up someone called that in the wrestling games I grew up playing. Nothing to do with drag, but I must've got the name from this show and just not remembered that's where I'd heard it. She was a no-nonsense badass who wore a flat-cap and shorts and did lots of powerbombs, lol.
Charles/Helena's non sequitor from realizing "wow my son is getting married in two weeks and i didn't even know he was dating anyone" to turning to a stranger and saying "so, you're bald" is one of the funniest things that came out of the show
Tbh, given the general thesis of this video, I found it a little odd that the commentary had nothing to say about how the moment was followed up with a(nother) joke at the expense of someone’s physical appearance.
I don't really see that as a joke at their physical appearance, but rather "Helena is diverting a really emotional moment by pointing out the first obvious physical characteristic of someone in her audience, and it's funny how abruptly she's doing so"
@@stellasdoesstuff She is using it to distract, but she (the writers) turned to a physical characteristic that has been the long-standing subject of comedy. Same could be said for being substantially overweight. Honest question: If the first person she turned to had been black, Asian, or hugely overweight, and she’d referenced that, might you have considered that (I hate this word) ‘problematic’? Whether you recognise it or not, making fun of baldness (or losing hair, or attempts to disguise losing hair, such as with wigs or comb-overs) or making figures that are meant to be the butt of jokes bald or balding as a physical characteristic is an old comedy trope. I think it stems from cultural associations between baldness/losing hair and a lack of masculinity and/or the end of a man’s virility, as it’s typically related to aging. It’s less common these days, not least because more men and younger men accept it and lean into it (and look better for doing so), by having close crops or fully shaved heads, rather than trying to mask it. It doesn’t appear in comedy as much, because it’s old, tired writing. I just found it a bit lazy and jarring given what the scene and storyline was supposedly trying to say - and views and ways of thinking which this video was supposedly trying to critique. Anyhoo, this has been more commentary than I ever expected to make on the subject of baldness, so I’ll leave it there. 🙂
@Stewart as a bald guy, I found it funny and I laughed... *but* it is lookism and a joke at a man's expense. I'm fine as long as joking about other things is okay to then. I'm not okay with the hypocrisy of people shutting down jokes and free speech about them but who are okay about joking about others.
To be honest, it's made pretty clear in the narrative that Chandler's parents relationship was toxic, period.Both of them seemed to hate each other, with issues that go deeper than Charles being queer. And he is as embarrassed by his mom, who writes erotic novels and once talked about buying him his first condom on national TV, as he is with his dad.
But him being embarrassed about his father being a trans women aka being who she really is, isn’t on the same page as being embarrassed by the mother’s job
@@AleksandarBell no I know. But she said that like it was some deep hidden subtext when it’s just text. It’s like if was like “Idk if you can tell, but there are some clues in Friends that Rachel ran away from her marriage and that’s how she met the rest of the cast” when it’s literally what happened.
@@AleksandarBell this is a misstatement though, come on. His problems with his mom don't have much to do with her job. Instead it has to do with her behavior, which he is embarrassed by and it boils down to who she is overall.
Came to say the same, especially in the 80s and 90s, some "boy" child with unexplained feelings could often end up in the gay drag community as the safe place for gender stuff, and only later figure out there's something going on beyond the immediate/surface obvious context of "gay man liking certain expressions". Chandler's trauma and shitty jokes around it all aside, Helena is quite accurate.
Other moments that I found interesting: At the wedding Monica asks Rachel to chat to Charles, describing them (regrettably) as ‘the tall man in the dress’ - and Rachel ends up talking to a tall square-jawed (implied) cis woman. Intentionally or otherwise, this illustrates the futility of bathroom laws and gender markers in general. Also, in the episode when Chandler helps Joey with his eyebrows, it demonstrates how Chandler might still be embarrassed about the skills he acquired growing up around drag queens, but he can accept and even be proud of them - and this is absolutely portrayed as a good thing and a maturing in his part. As you say, endless issues across the run, but some good messaging in there too.
Chandler being uncomfortable with gay, queer or feminine things is always presented as an issue he has and it comes from his relationship with his parents. Friends despite the time it came out always had a very positive message when it comes to being comfortable with your feminine side as a man and it really thought me how to not stress about how manly I am growing up.
Fun fact, originally Chandler was supposed to be a gay character but the network wasn't cool with it, you can still see a lot of the remains of that idea in the first season as Chandler's sexuality is joked about a bit.
THIS! For nearly two decades, I wanted to (kinda) be a woman, but I couldn't be trans, cause I wasn't gay, nor wanted to be a prostitute or a drag queen. Thanks 90's and 2000's general culture for wasting my youth, I don't feel even a bit nostalgic😤 Clarification: I started hrt 4 months ago, and turns out I was bi anyway.
The 90s also had a whole lot of “hey so the main thing gay and trans people do is get AIDS and die miserably by that or murder”. The very first movie I ever saw that featured queer people living happily was The Birdcage. (I turned out to be non-binary and wow three decades of confusion over “why do I hate being a woman but love the idea of being a drag queen” makes a lot more sense once you know there’s other options beyond just A or B!)
I'm 35. I have strongly felt like a man for as long as I can remember. I've kept it visually hidden because when I dress masculine I get threats and stuff. Hiding who you really are hurts so much. 90s media didn't help me other than solidify that I'd I were to be myself openly I'd be kicked at the very least. People in society solidified that if I expressed who I am openly I would be in danger. I'm just not brave enough to deal with that. I'm so happy that you're finally getting to live your truest self. I hope you finally feel like the person you want to be. You're inspiring and I hope the world gives you nothing but the best. 💜💜💜
@@lolafierling2154 Oh please, I'm not brave, I'm an absolute coward. I just couldn'tstand seing myself turn into a creepy old man in front of my own eyes. I'm not even out of the closet yet, my current plan is keep boymoding until I basically look like the butchest lesbian. (The picture is from a convention, don't count) Edit: I'm 32, may not be too late for you.
Can we all just take a moment to thank Hollywood for unintentionally making every Gender Cop look like an absolute idiot when they say “we can always tell”
As someone who spent half their life so far (12 out of 22 years on this earth) having been a "body positive" transphobe, and is now learning more about myself and my relationship with gender (namely the fact I'm *_far_* from Cis): "Body Positivity" is just a destructive as transphobia, just instead of being systemic oppression, it encourages people to oppress themselves. In some ways it's not as bad, in others it's worse. In the case of transphobia, people spread disinformation about the transition process and its effects, as well as falsely claiming that children are forcibly transitioned on a systemic level. In short, transphobes claim being transgender is harmful when it actually isn't. "Body Positivity" meanwhile claims that being morbidly obese is just peachy keen, in spite of the fact that it _does_ cause immense physiological and psychological harm. I myself have not only witnessed it multiple times (even claiming a member of my family), but also _experienced it myself_. In short Body Positives claim that being fat isn't harmful when it most certainly is. I've lost 75 pounds in the last 12 months, and I'm still considered Obese at 280. I've been in the morbidly obese category. I still have the stretch marks, and with how long I let myself stay like that those marks will probably never heal. To be clear, I don't "hate fat people", nor do I fear them, nor am I averse to them. What I do hate are those who would try to take being fat and make it something to be proud of. *_ESPECIALLY_* when they themselves aren't fat, and never have been. If someone is fat, and wants to love themselves regardless, more power to them. But for people to try and erase the stigma associated with being fat, a stigma that serves to dissuade people from letting themselves go, I can't help but see it as being either despicable, or at the very least ignorant. A message to anyone out there that is morbidly obese and hates their body: don't let it discourage you, but don't give in to the "just be proud of it" crowd. I've seen too many people try and fail to find their footing in that mindset, saying it but not believing it. Look at your body and instead of thinking of it as what you _are,_ think of it as what you _have._ Think of it as the material which you can sculpt your true self out of. Once you get started, keep it going. You won't see results for a while, but once you do you won't want to stop. Believe you can be/look, if not exactly how you want, then at least somewhere close enough to it to be happy.
This is an interesting perspective. I’ve never been obese myself but am somewhat conflicted on this issue. I think it’s one thing to say that people shouldn’t encourage obesity, I know there’s people like that and that to me is body positivity gone too far. But at the same time if actual concern for a persons weight is replaced with mean bullying (as you see in Friends), I think that’s also a problem, and usually doesn’t help anyone lose weight
@@KitKatHexe I'm sure people do push that message but that's not how I've ever viewed body positivity. It's about letting go of all the shame and guilt and self hatred and judgement. As with a disability, it can still be debilitating and a negative impact on people's lives, but those emotions attached to it can make it much much worse.
While it's obviously wrong, i think it's because it's Hollywood and it was the 90s and early 2000s, you have INTENSE diet culture and you have a wave of pushing for queer rights, it makes sense for that to have been the case. But, again, doesn't make it right.
@@KitKatHexe I appreciate you going into detail about your journey. But that is not what body positivity is. Being proud of your body, and yes, your fat body just means having a general sense of pride in what your body does for you and finding joy. I myself had a weight-loss journey and it was the body neutral and body positive movement that helped me. When you hate yourself and want to unalive. I hadn't left my apartment for anything other than school for almost 2 years because I was so ashamed of how I looked. Seeing fat people be happy and free on the internet was what encouragement I needed to live my life no matter how I looked, to go to the gym and not care how others felt about me. It was hard but that shit saved my life. Body positivity isn't about promoting obesity. I will say there are some people that hold on to the far identity a bit too much and are unreasonable in what they showcase. However, I am a firm believer that going out, being happy and living ones life promotes mental and physical wellness that are associated with better outcomes. It's difficult to cultivate mental and physical wellness if you sit in your house all day, isolated, but, going out and living are going to be more powerful, positive forces than guilt and shame ever could. Now we have workout gear, clothing so many things that fat people can use to live healthy lives. For real, the pros of body positivity far out weigh the cons (pun intended).
fun fact: Alexis Arquette (who played the drag queen waitress) was Courtney Cox's then-sister-in-law, the late great Alexis Arquette. at the time she was primarily a drag queen and an actress but she later came out as trans (Courtney's ex-husband/Alexis's brother David Arquette has described Alexis as something akin to being genderfluid, but i'm not going to put any label on her that she didn't openly embrace--she is, however, very much Not Cis).
As an immigrant who watched friends to learn english, I was super confused by Chandler's dad. I should also note there was never any mention of drag shows in my culture, so I was also super confused about that and chalked it up to a "Las Vegas thing." But what I learned from how the character was portrayed was that Charles really loved her son, Chandler, and had a really good sense of humor. I liked her character. I liked her character way more than Chandler's mom. And this representation in Friends taught me not to judge people simply by their queerness. So, as problematic as that representation was, it did teach a positive lesson to a clueless immigrant like me.
She didn't mock or belittle Rachel's interest in writing, and albeit in a not very helpful way, could be viewed as encouraging Rachel's creative spirit. Admittedly, it's about as bright a point in her character as a single birthday candle stuck to the back of a playing card floating in the middle of the Pacific at midnight during a typhoon, but it's not nothing.
your point about representation mattering is so true. I'm a black cis lesbian and for the longest time, i couldnt come to terms with that because I have usually only ever seen white lesbians. I never really thought it was something that was for me and I found myself wondering why I felt so different. It wasn't until I got a new job where the majority of the people there are queer and poc that I realized that isn't true at all. But people really don't think that media has an impact on these things and they do!
Absolutely agreed, media kinda makes it seem like you can only be one level of minority and nothing else. It's so misleading and kinda stops personal exploration
THIS!!!! I’m an AFAB nonbinary person and some people genuinely think only AFAB people can be nonbinary because it’s the only kind of rep they see, so they think being nonbinary is a “girl thing” which makes NO sense and defeats the point entirely 💀💀
An added nice nod was that Chandler's old swim coach who Charles had an affair was now actually Helena's pianist, as well as (I believe) potentially their (maybe her) partner of multiple decades by that point in the show.
Friends showing queer characters in long lasting relationships is more than most shows have done for us (including queer shows)... And that's depressing.
Honestly though, isn't it wacky that Friends were able to somehow able to do this better (even if it is mishandled a lot and is mostly from a cis heteronormative view) than HIMYM 10 years later.
The two biggest sitcoms after Friends, HIMYM and TBBT were both somehow way worse about trans people, gay people and race. Like yes, friends was absurdly white, but 10 years later so was HIMYM and TBBT made a mockery of the 1 main character of color
I watched HIMYM in its entirety last month for the first time and I was so astonished at all of the transphobic the show had, Like I genuinely couldn’t believe how many jokes they had directed to trans-women specifically at every single corner
As someone who's watched maybe 1 ep of HIMYM, I'm kinda surprised that a younger show with Neil Patrick Harris did worse (at least from what you're saying)
I was born in 1971. Grew up with 70s, 80s, and 90s "representation" in a conservative religious environment. It messed me up so badly I repressed whole decades of memories because I thought even questioning was unthinkable. At 51 I know now I'm a non binary trans girl (who is still stuck in the U.S. south so not very transitioned after my first year) who's also bi but it was a long painful road getting there.
happy that you were able to claw through all of that to find yourself. It took me a good 30 years for the egg to crack, and like you said- all of those decades of poor representation and survivalism had made it very difficult to peel back the layers of my masks and let the real me breathe.
@@hexonyou Thank you. It was 35 or so for me (puberty kicked in a little late and before that I was happy just thinking of myself as a kid rather than a boy) Happy for you too.
I was born in 1967 and also stuck with religious conservative parents. The strongest memories of childhood were being punished constantly for doing anything "girly" and being forced into sports to "man" me up, thank "god" they never caught me in my sisters' clothes! I suppressed my feelings for years in order to survive and at 50 when I almost died and needed open heart surgery all those feelings resurfaced during me rehab. I still hide but am starting to come to terms with who I really am.
Monica trying to get the lingo right and Chandler acting uncomfortable is similar to my friends being around me. The guy friend acts super straight around me (a nb bisexual) and my girl friends try to be supportive even if they don't understand it very well (i don't mind the pronouns so it's alright, but they show me all the hot guys they see on the streets and that was an enlightening revelation)
this was honestly such a mature way to approach the claims that friends is transphobic, i honestly found this genuinely interesting, unlike the news outlets just blatantly saying that i's a bigoted nightmare, it really shows that you did research into the topic and that gets a lot of respect out of me
It kind of feels like a moot point and it doesn't correct anything, but honestly, good on the creators to admit they made a mistake, considering the precedent set by Jowling Kowling Rowling that was refreshing to hear
If we are being honest, Chandler's hate for his dad ( and his mom) is mostly because they were not good parents. They were fighting all the time, they were too open sexually, and slept with people that their kid knows. And he just left him to follow his dreams.At least his mom stayed and raised him.
Yeah there's a joke about him having walked in on them having a threesome when he was like, 7 or 8? Which is kinda yikes. The lack of boundaries from both his parents are apparent, especially his Mom. He probably extended that fact to his dad, though at the end of the day his dad was just being open about their identity and it was hard for Chandler to see the differences between those things
You mentioned the introduction of Kathleen Turner but didn't mention that Morgan Fairchild who played Chandlers mum was also known for playing the sexy conniving character in the 80s so they really did do some interesting casting with the two actresses
One queer part of Friends I found interesting was Phoebe, and how her attraction to women was sort of played off as a one-off thing (even though it was mentioned multiple times). I wonder what may have happened if Friends expanded on that?
@@LK-my3wq It's been a while since I've seen the whole series myself, so I had to look some stuff up lol. Here's some examples: -Phoebe kissed Rachel to see if she was as a good of a kisser as Rachel said she was (S7 Ep20) -Phoebe considered asking out Monica & Ross' cousin since Phoebe isn't related to her (Chandler & Ross also found that cousin attractive) (S7 Ep19) -Phoebe implied she may have had a threesome w/ her friend, Mary Ellen (S9 Ep3) If you'd like to know more, I'd recommend nonmonosexualityinfandom's Tumblr post about it! :)
There was also the episode that Winona Ryder guested where Rachel was talking about kissing her in collage and it turned out after denying the kissing that Winona was in love with Rachel all this time.
great video! as a lesbian who grew up watching friends, i always found charles bing SO interesting as a character, even with the little screen time she had. i thought she was just awesome, beautiful and confident, which inspired me so much as a young closeted kid. also unrelated but may i add that your voice is soooo relaxing to me
Looking back on shows like Friends and TBBT really made me realize that growing up I just laughed at what everyone else did even if I didn't get why. It's something I still struggle with cuz I have super bad abandonment issues. It kinda sucks how we often get told by society and those around us what we should and should not find funny, even when the humor ends up being at the expense of our own demographic. The South Park example makes me sad cuz it could have been a great opportunity to show why people detransition and how often it's due to society making it SO unsafe that they essentially HAVE to in order to just live their lives.
Me too, growing up I was always scared of not seeming normal, so I laughed at everything I thought I was supposed to be laughing at. I ended up a big fan of things with horrible jokes in that I'd never be a fan of now, but hey I love the costumes and attention to detail and everything about everything besides the humour I don't usually get. My tastes started refining once I moved out and stopped having a television. Internet videos ask a lot more active choosing from you than a vague few channels. I started to realise I could have standards, and that it was okay to like one thing but not like another. God damn it took me a while. There is a social taboo nowadays (and perhaps longer into the past as well) around disliking humour, isn't there? Lots of people around who wrap their sense of quality up (plus that of others) in how able they are to find literally anything funny (and inoffensive). Such a desperation. I guess a lot of people go through it. Yeahhhh that was about the time I stopped watching South Park. Valuable lesson in the excuse of "we have a go at everyone equally" being both a] no excuse at all, and b] never really true anyway. I sat back and asked myself "why am I still watching this?" and didn't come up with an answer. Then I asked myself "hang on, why ARE they all kids? Why choose to set it like that?" and that was quite uncomfortable to be plain, thinking back on a whole bunch of moments. Viewership and "the done thing" starts off so automatic doesn't it?
When you think about it, laugh tracks were like "masking" cues, like an attempt at teaching (indoctrinating) people to know what was appropriate to laugh at, and what wasn't.
@@RedSntDK I actually think they're a little underrated... they can work when they're done well, and a show dropping them can make it dramatically worse. But it's SO easy to misuse them in exactly the way you suggest.
My wife and I were just talking about the queer aspects of this show a few days ago, but it's been so long since either of us watched Friends that my recollections were super fuzzy. I remembered it being not great but also not as outright offensive as some other sitcoms, so having a refresher in the form of a very thoughtful dissection of the episodes involving queer and specifically trans aspects is very nice. Thank you for the video! Your work is always extremely enjoyable and engaging
kinda hilarious that the later verification that Charles is trans has MORE textual validation than the Dumbledore thing. At least this you can look at and think "yeah okay I get where they were trying and failed" whereas Dumbledore is just made up after. That invitation scene really was well done, and similarly I despise Ross as well but the scene with him affirming Susan was just lovely.
There’s a lot of Ross hatred in me too. Someone in high school once said that I was the Ross of our friend group, and I have never been so mortified or insulted in my life.
I appreciate Kathleen Turner’s apology. At the same time, I feel like her performance is largely what makes Charles more than a joke. Another actor or actress could have taken the same material in such an awful direction. It helps that, unlike HiMYM, Friends had some more plausible deniability in the writing of its queer characters. But the actors who played all of them, despite the representation issues inherent in cishet folks playing us, did have a raw sincerity that made me feel like they transcended the stereotypes they were otherwise written into. Upon a rewatch of only the episodes dealing with queerness, Friends has a strange place in my ranking of media. It was never my show, but it was my mother’s, and I wonder now if it helped her at all when came out. It seems like sometimes media that does a shitty to ambiguous job with surprise moments of sincerity is liking hiding animal meds in peanut butter.
Love this. Friends is still a big comfort show for me but It really struck me when rewatching how not completely terrible the queers were, despite how much gen z generally hates it.
What I love about her is that pretty much the only "joke" about her is drag/trans/gay. She's portrayed as a self-confident woman who isn't arrogant or mean-spirited, who can take an insult in her stride, she comes across as being very comfortable with who she is, like she's conquered the haters and grown stronger from it. She's actually a very, very good role model in that regard since she does seem to be capable of handling her emotions in a mature way. Of course there's the snide remarks at her ex-wife, but when Nora fires back she raises her head and smiles and is (at least from what it looks like) impervious to it, making Nora look like the one "losing" that battle. It would've been SO easy to make her look like a terrible person and kinda reinforce that link of "drag/trans/gay equals bad" (like the huge number of trans-coded serial killers etc.) but they didn't! She's definitely a more admirable person than Nora if you ask me! A huge part of representation is not only having the characters on the screen, but also portraying them as strong, resilient, fully realized people. We don't just need to see people who are like us and going through the same things, but also people who have come out the other end stronger, role models whom we can look up to.
As much as I watch video essays about Friends's problems, the intro still fills me with calm and peace and safety every single time. This show was a happy place for me, a promise my life would be amazing when I'd grow up. Of course it isn't what I thought it would be, but that really helped me to get through some shit. I love the video essays about friends, it was a great show at its time. I never noticed the mocking, being from a very different culture than America. I'm 26 and it's always been normal to be gay here. I really liked Susan and Carol.
I mean rarely anything is 100% bad? As also Lilly said in the video, there’s also some kind of progressive stuff in the show. For me it was one of rare experiences, though fictive, with lgbt+ people, otherwise I’m honestly scared how I would grow up in the conservative closed small environment where I was born. As a. kid I didnt pick up on all the offensive stuff
I would say that LGBT rights - and especially perceptions of gay and lesbian people - have come on massively and relatively quickly. I'm coming up on 40 and I can remember when a show having a gay character at all was rare, and would be cause for controversy regardless of how they were portrayed. As much as people can be derisive of comedic portrayals of queer folks as "not serious"... those were the ones that I think really helped. People can feel genuine attachment to fictional characters, and for a lot of people, the fictional gays on TV were the first ones they knew personally. It creates an attachment that made us harder to dehumanise. This, I think, is why the far-right get so tetchy about minorities getting media representation. They know it works.
I don't think it's fair to call Monica's comments in that part "jovially not quite getting it". She is openly admitting that she doesn't know what pronouns to use, is signaling that she wants to use the right ones, AND is admitting that her not knowing is a personal failing on her part. Imo, that is 100% getting it and I was really impressed that a mainstream show from the '90s had a character approach it that way. That's not to say that it's not offensive (imo its mildly offensive) nor that Trans people shouldn't be offended (up to each individual). I'm just saying that I think "getting it" and "knowing the social norms" are two different things.
I am a trans man and growing up rewatching friends, I rrally LOVEDD when Charles Bing was finally shown in screen. It was the first time i ever shaw a gender queer person on the show. And even though it was not done the best, I absolutely agree with your statement about taking Charles Bing back as a trans icon, being unapologetically herself in the context of the hostile world surrounding her. Literally the coolest and strongest women to be on the show!!
Not sure if this matters, but the end credits read "Kathleen Turner as Helena Handbasket". I've always assumed that it was a way of indicating that it's the name we're supposed to refer her to as. Although, maybe the reason is that the name Charles wasn't revealed until her second appearance.
Oh, I’ve been waiting for this video! 👀 Friends is one of my comfort shows and I like the way it portrays toxic masculinity (Ross not wanting his kid to play with dolls, etc) as something to laugh at. It’s clearly shown as a character flaw, and not portrayed as a good thing. Trans representation was a bit more muddled and flawed (the point you mentioned about Chandler’s dad’s identity being unclear) but I liked Chandler reaching out and reconciling with his dad…🥺
Also, for some reason (maybe because I saw Friends after it ended and there was already a lot of discourse about it) I always saw Chandler’s dad as 100% a woman, definitely not a gay man who does drag… 🤷🏻♀️
Maybe this is me projecting some meaning that wasn’t meant to be there, but I first watched friends as a teenager in 2013 and it was always clear to me that Helena/Charles was a trans woman that first thought she was a gay drag queen and then realized her true identity. Maybe it was because I grew up in a different era than the show was made in, but that’s how I always interpreted it.
Do you have any interest in covering Ouran High School Host Club? I feel like way Haruhi's dad is portrayed has a lot of similar problems to Charles Bing, not to mention the chestnut of Haruhi's gender. Haruhi expresses that they don't care whether they're perceived as a girl or a boy, which makes me think they're non-binary, but Tamaki reacts to his attraction to them with extreme gender absolutism -- you're a girl and you should act like this -- and it's often not really pushed back against. Especially in the beach episode where Kyoya does the thing, it really feels like the show is siding with the host club and saying that haruhi shouldn't have defended those girls because of their gender. Also, Haruhi often begrudgingly goes along with the host clubs shenanigans, so I don't know how much of them being dressed up as a girl and referred to as a girl actually bothers them. You get a lot of conflicting information-- Haruhi often doesn't want to participate but not for those stated reasons. Episodes I think that really go into this are The Sun The Sea and The Host Club, A Challenge for Lobelia Girls' Academy, A Day in the Life of the Fujioka Family, Operation Hikaru and Haruhi's First Date, and Lobelia Girls' Academy Strikes back. I kind of want to make this video myself, lol, but I keep talking around in circles and struggle to come to a conclusion because I really don't know where the show or the characters genuinely stand.
If I remember correctly I think the manga might paint a more full picture🤔 But I believe it's just as Haruhi says, she doesnt care if people think shes a girl or a boy so she doesnt mind dressing up In dresses or pants
This is largely me projecting, but as a gender-apathetic person who really only lives as a cis woman out of convenience, I saw more of that in Haruhi than what we may typically think of when we hear 'nonbinary.'
@@xwormbonesx is it?? Momentarily leaving aside the argument of whether anything can be truly gendered - ore is by and large used by men and masculine people and though it can be used by women etc my understanding was always that to do that is transgressive or rebellious in some way; granted I’m not a native speaker but it has never been presented to me as a gender neutral first person pronoun, but overwhelmingly is portrayed as masculine
I used to watch Friends with my mom all the time as a kid and in regard to these two episodes, I mostly remember being mad at Chandler for being so mean to his dad
What I love is that the show validates this perspective, and doesn't portray Chandler's meanness positively. When Chandler complains about his dad (prior to meeting her), none of his friends join in, and if there's a joke it's about Chandler's fussiness. But what seals the deal is the moment when they reconcile, you know this is the happy conclusion of an emotional arc for Chandler. The show mocks Chandler's meanness and celebrates his kindness.
A thing I want to underline about Turner: in the early 90s, starting with (I think) Serial Mom, she did this pivot from being an actress who took mostly roles banking on her sex appeal to doing increasingly camp roles. I think this was an explicit career choice rooted in 1) diminishing opportunity for aging actresses 2) diva worship being a commodity that sex symbols aging out of marketability accrue even greater dividends on than young actresses, but whatever the reasons, Turner was kind of recognisably a gay-adjacent actress in the same kind of way that Catherine O'Hara is now (and, lbr, kind of was then too). I feel really reluctant to give Friends credit for much of anything, but this actually strikes me as really smart casting? I don't know of many cis straight actora who could have made the role do this, and not be a punchline, who would have been in budget, and while Friends did air on NBC, the same channel as Will and Grace, I don't know if a working drag queen would have flown under S&P. (And, as much as I would have loved this going to Charles Busch: W&G set a very good precedent for Cis Actresses In Very Obvious Drag Roles.) And Turner was kind of perfect- she had already done drag in Serial Mom, her command of the vocabulary of glamour and sultriness was legit and the diva in middle age works in a similarly desexualised pocket to the one many a high femme camp queen works in, and she could actually play the character in that Almodovarian ambivalently-maternal space rather than as a butt of a joke. So: more things that make this kind of weird ambivalent character even more ambivalent. Yay? Boo? Both at once?
I think being critical of the things you love is a crucial part of consuming art. And the message that the artist intended to put out is only part of the equation. The interpretation of the people consuming it is just as/if not more important. This was such a great analysis.
Since as long as I can remember, I’ve wanted to sing and act both men’s and women’s parts. (I can’t imagine what the high school drama teach thought of me expressing interest in playing Sophie OR Sky lol). Anyway, I recently came out as trans masc, and my day-to-day presentation is pretty masc. however, I bought a blond wig and filmed myself singing various fem parts from my favourite shows, and it was bloody awesome. I’m too young to go in bars (just a few more months!!) but I might be a queen?
So I used to be a huge fan of friends. I thought it was really progressive by virtue of it being the first piece of media I watched that not only portrayed lesbians but a lesbian wedding. Looking back I realized the way those women were treated, not to mention the treatment of Chandlers dad, left a lot to be desired.
it is not ok to cheat on your partner, even if you're trans or gay. Ross has every right to be angry at his exwife and her partner. ChandIer's mom has every right to be angry at her ex.
The wedding scene was a game-changer for most media at that time. and was one of the reasons I liked the show because, despite its flaws, it showed some good rep at a time when most did not.
The only thing I want to add as an elder millennial who loves Friends (but def not Ross), is that Chandler is also ALMOST as uncomfortable with his mother, who is a famous erotica author. I think he holds a lot of shame in general around his sexuality due to his dad leaving his family for another guy, and his mother having an "embarrassing" career. He also went to all-boys school. So I can't imagine life was kind to a young Chandler Bing, who's wealthy family was also probably the subject of a lot of whispers behind their backs. I think his parents were both not great at handling telling him about the divorce. Plus, he shares a lot over the series about the kinds of situations both of his parents put him in the middle of. None of this is meant to excuse Friends' problematic episodes or anything you said, because everything is very valid. Mine is more of a "it's probably 90's progressive that he ended up as well-adjusted as he was depicted."
Agree that there should have been more explanation, and an actual trans person cast. But searching for perfect representation, is hard. Still one of my favorite moments. The gutted look on “his parent’s” face. The shame on chandler’s. The sadness on Monica’s. It’s so honest, and heart breaking. Idk everything else is white noise compared to that moment. Bc I don’t know anyone who couldn’t connect/ feel in that moment. Yes it was a comedy show. But moments like that are what kept people coming back.
I really appreciate this video. I watched Friends as a high school freshman and I didn't really have my gender figured out yet. The show was a huge comfort for me because corny sitcoms are my bread and butter, but even as a young and confused queer I could tell something was off. But I found some comfort in each representation of queerness in Friends despite all that. It's really nice to see somebody unpack the harmful aspects of the way Friends handles queerness without dogging the whole show or having a completely black and white view of its problematic nature. Friends isn't a very good show. But it is an alright show that fills a comforting enough niche that I'm glad when people acknowledge what made it work.
What an amazing take on the character. You managed to turn uninformed and offensive writing into a meta character that takes its meaning not only from the text, but also by acknowledging the limitations of its writers. I am fucking mind blown. It's such a fantastic way to view old media and reclaim characters. Wow. Fucking hell, Lily!
Your video on HIMYM was superb ! I would like you to talk about my favourite show, Criminal minds. They tried to be explicit with their support of non-cis people, lgbt, women, non-documented immigrants, POC, sex workers, fostered kids, basically almost any opressed population
Oh my god.. thank you so, so much for making this video. The whole topic of Chandler's dad is something that's been on my mind for the longest time, especially since my last semi-rewatch years ago. Incidentally, it's also been on my mind alot TODAY, when I happened across this video right at the top of my recommendeds page. What a crazy coincidence. Friends is a show still really nostalgic for me that, despite all its many flaws, I enjoy a lot. My first time watching it was far before I really knew I was trans myself. So to make these connections with consecutive years & rewatches has really been.. in itself, a microcosm of The Journey. I've been pondering these things so much and with nobody to really talk to about it, because my friends who're cis and have seen it don't really get it or quite see my point, and well most people just don't care about the show so I can't get a second opinion the way I wish. So again, I am really glad to have found this video and to hear much of the same stuff I noticed pointed out by somebody else that gets it. Thank you.
My interpretation has also been that Chandler's dad is a trans woman. Because a drag queen doesn't really dress in drag in her daily life, does she? Or do something like show up to his kids wedding in full drag unannounced. It was, too, her being played by a woman that made me all the more confused as well as convinced that's what she WAS, despite the show attempting to tell us otherwise through other character's reactions to and treatment of her. I am glad even just in retrospect to find out she really was intended to be trans, that they really just fucked up on it. Although the ramifications are bleak to think about, in a way I also feel (retroactively) seen, + hell yeah i was RIGHT this WHOLE TIME. I saw something there that really was there. From a certain angle I think it's also pretty inspiring, that she continued to be unapologetically herself even when her own family rejected her, didn't understand or intentionally disrespected who she was. That she did not let that deter or muffle her self-expression and just.. being. At least not that we, as the audience, could see. You could tell there was still love there, that Chandler even through his bitterness for what he perceives as his dad breaking up the family he did still appreciate [her] presence at the wedding and that the reconnection wasn't a disaster or wholly negative thing. It just was. And of course she cared for him and wished him well, even after all that time of him intentionally avoiding contact. Better late than never.. sort of.
This was the show where I learned about queer people, as a kid growing up in the 90s. I didn't quite understand everything (and refreshingly, the show didn't do a 101-style lesson about them), but I remember having a positive impression of lesbians and trans women after this show, so I'm glad I got this introduction and not the many worse ones I could have gotten from shows coming long after this was airing. Given how universally-popular this show was, I hope other people got to enjoy a positive introduction too. I was a little worried going into this video because I didn't want to look back and learn that my positive experience was a product of rose-colored nostalgia, but it looks like it really does hold up!
It was interesting you brought up South Park, I was already thinking about it as a similar example of a show with weirdly good gay representation but consistently terrible transphobia, kinda had enough of their shit tbh. Like the trans moral panic is the perfect adults-doing-dumb-shit story for South Park, it would write itself, but instead we get Cartman gets a boob job and goes round saying this is totally a thing that happens completely unchallenged and I want to fucking scream. The many layered irony of my current Captain Hindsight profile pic is not lost on me here haha
As a cis gender male who grew up in the 90s, i believe the most negative impact friends (and other media) had on me was the reactions to being thought of as gay. You would see these types of reactions of disgust and being defensively hetero and think this is the appropriate reaction. Great video! Keep it up!!
The rare nuanced video about a problematic piece of media ❤ I listened to a video by another creator who brought out evidence that Chandler was supposed to be gay from the start, but the network put a stop on it once the actor was simply so good they made Chandler a main character (I do remember reading and interview that said that Phoebe and Chandler were both supposed to be side characters and honestly looking back at season one it’s obvious for Phoebe), cause they didn’t want a gay character to be main. I do also remember reading that the show got a lot of backlash about being immoral because in the pilot Monica sleeps with the guy on the first date 🙄 Personally I think that’s what they had that episode with Richard on the number of people they had sex with, you know, to make sure the audience know that she was >progressive but not slutty< or some BS like that. My point being that it wasn’t always that what ended up being aired was the same that the writers wanted to do Still on them for apparently not consulting anyone from the transgender community, likely not even population. It was the 7th season if I remember well, they definitely had all the resources available to write it well, the show was mega successful
My favorite part is when they say they’re broke in the theme song but have spacious multi bedroom apartments with large balconies big windows and an amazing view of New York.
I found your channel through the always sunny episode. I can't say how much it's helped me understand the feelings if trans people around these issues and realise things I've said and done in the past were hurtful. Keep up the good work!
Please do the early 80s cult hit Angel. About the teenage prostitute. It’s really cheesy and campy, but it humanizes societal outcasts and flips the narrative of the perceived morality of the majority. Quite ahead of its time.
One very small thing I want to point out is that it is possible for Charles Bing to be a trans woman and still retain the name 'Charles'. As a trans woman who kept my own traditionally masculine name, I'm quite open to this interpretation. Of course, I doubt this was the intention of the writers (it seems much more likely that they were simply too lazy to give the character a preferred name), but if we are going to claim Charles Bing as a trans character, I think it would be nice to recognise that small subset of trans folks who keep their birth names, even if those birth names are 'gendered'.
7:55 back up, that's Alexis Arquette - Courtney Cox's sister-in-law I have no idea how they got along but I would hope that she* (Monica) would have a greater sensitivity to the culture despite it being the 90s when the discussion of pronouns and gender wasn't so out in the open.
Quote Jurassic Park: “It could’ve been worse, John. A lot worse.” Like, I’m not gonna act like it’s great or anything, but I at least admire the character drama, and Kathleen Turner is an icon.
I honestly am so thankful I grew up watching this show, even from an age that was probably way too young for the dating life of the characters. It was the first real gay rep I ever had, but I didn't even realize that fact until a couple years ago, because it felt so natural. Like it was just anotherpart of the world, and one that existed even when it wasn't on screen. No one in my life really talked about queer-anything growing up, so there was really nothing to dispute this viewpoint lol. I grew up knowing that being gay was okay and just another part of life for some people, purely by accident for everyone involved in teaching me. There's probably a big chance I never would've noticed how big of a role this rep played for me, but that just goes to show how effective it was in a way. It was natural, and nothing to gawk at, because everything was already a joke on friends, and Ross's and Chandler's uncomfortability to me was the butt of the joke anyway Even as a little kid I always saw Susan and Carol as mostly foils to Ross whenever they showed up. They were the common sense folks, who were just living their lives, and Ross was the one who was being confronted with the need for some sort of growth and mildly failing constantly. It's a really weird balance this show, but I'm glad little me was able to get such goodness out of it
This very much mirrors my own feelings on the show. While I love it for a lot of reasons, the jokes about queer people and queer related topics always made me uncomfortable, especially as I got older and learned more. And yet, I still think it did a surprisingly good job with representation for a show of its time. It's not perfect, not by a longshot, but it always felt like there was heart behind the writing. But I also can't just ignore the things it does wrong. There are a lot of jokes about gay people that have aged really badly. And there's a joke that "Bi people are just kidding themselves" at the very end of one episode that made me cringe the last time I saw it.
The podcast Gayest Episode Ever covers a lot of similar ground as Lily and has done an episode or two on King of the Hill. I’m not sure if they did the Dales dad episode, but the one on the episode where Peggy meets a trans woman is good
I'll say this, Friends was the first time that I (with my Mormon upbringing) realized that lgbt+ people were basically just normal people. When Ross' ex was giving birth and her partner described her by saying "the woman I love is giving birth," I swear I could almost hear the lightbulb in my head switching on.
Just finished watching the twilight video yesterday. Pleasantly surprised to get to watch this today! I love how you don't shy away from nuance! And the way you talk is both calming and engaging
I fucking love this channel. Not only for showing us some amazing points if view on trans people in media, but also pointing out that, these shows are flawed, but can have some amazing moments. I forgot how heartwarming that bit in Vegas really was. For all its flaws, friends really nailed human connection. Then it slapped a laugh track on jokes aimed at queer groups 😂🤦🏼♂️
the interesting thing about being a transparent for me is that i transitioned young enough that i haven't had kids yet. if i do the only parent they'll have seen me as is me being myself and i kinda love that c:
A difference that I feel is noteworthy between the clarifications about Charles Bing and Dumbledore is that the former comes from the authors explaining "this is what we wanted to say but mangled it because we did not understood pronouns yet" while the latter is just an excuse for TERFs to claim they are not bigots in another attempt to normalize transphobia.
Oh my god. How have I not subscribed to you already? I’m always so excited when your videos turn up in my suggested feed. Bring on the queer media deep dives!
Ok but idk what i was expecting with Helena, she's beautiful!! I thought for sure she'd be like, an awful caricature or something but she looks beautiful i wanna cry 🥺🥺🥺🥺💕💕💕
I appreciate there is a clear shame in Chandlers voice when he says they are getting married. I always saw it as him realizing this is the first time his dad is learning about it and that he wishes he had told his dad earlier
For all its many flaws, Helena Handbasket is a fantastic drag name
True
cosigning
its outrageously good
100%
I'd always make up someone called that in the wrestling games I grew up playing. Nothing to do with drag, but I must've got the name from this show and just not remembered that's where I'd heard it. She was a no-nonsense badass who wore a flat-cap and shorts and did lots of powerbombs, lol.
"...there's a lot of Ross hatred in me that hasn't had a chance to come out."
I have never related so viscerally to a statement before
i'm happy to find fellow ross haters ❤
Both Ross and Rachael were just terrible but I definitely hated Rachel more. Their whole thing was the worst part of the show
The show is actually unwatchable because Ross has more than a second of screen time in any episode.
Saaaame!
@jacoosacoon118 well, Ross gets dumped and CaroI cheats on him with Susan and everyone laughs at him for it and he never even gets an apoIogy
Charles/Helena's non sequitor from realizing "wow my son is getting married in two weeks and i didn't even know he was dating anyone" to turning to a stranger and saying "so, you're bald" is one of the funniest things that came out of the show
Tbh, given the general thesis of this video, I found it a little odd that the commentary had nothing to say about how the moment was followed up with a(nother) joke at the expense of someone’s physical appearance.
I don't really see that as a joke at their physical appearance, but rather "Helena is diverting a really emotional moment by pointing out the first obvious physical characteristic of someone in her audience, and it's funny how abruptly she's doing so"
@@stellasdoesstuff She is using it to distract, but she (the writers) turned to a physical characteristic that has been the long-standing subject of comedy. Same could be said for being substantially overweight.
Honest question: If the first person she turned to had been black, Asian, or hugely overweight, and she’d referenced that, might you have considered that (I hate this word) ‘problematic’?
Whether you recognise it or not, making fun of baldness (or losing hair, or attempts to disguise losing hair, such as with wigs or comb-overs) or making figures that are meant to be the butt of jokes bald or balding as a physical characteristic is an old comedy trope.
I think it stems from cultural associations between baldness/losing hair and a lack of masculinity and/or the end of a man’s virility, as it’s typically related to aging.
It’s less common these days, not least because more men and younger men accept it and lean into it (and look better for doing so), by having close crops or fully shaved heads, rather than trying to mask it. It doesn’t appear in comedy as much, because it’s old, tired writing.
I just found it a bit lazy and jarring given what the scene and storyline was supposedly trying to say - and views and ways of thinking which this video was supposedly trying to critique.
Anyhoo, this has been more commentary than I ever expected to make on the subject of baldness, so I’ll leave it there. 🙂
@Stewart as a bald guy, I found it funny and I laughed... *but* it is lookism and a joke at a man's expense. I'm fine as long as joking about other things is okay to then.
I'm not okay with the hypocrisy of people shutting down jokes and free speech about them but who are okay about joking about others.
@@stellasdoesstuff it seems like Chandler's habit of trying to break awkward silence by stating obvious facts is inherited
To be honest, it's made pretty clear in the narrative that Chandler's parents relationship was toxic, period.Both of them seemed to hate each other, with issues that go deeper than Charles being queer. And he is as embarrassed by his mom, who writes erotic novels and once talked about buying him his first condom on national TV, as he is with his dad.
But him being embarrassed about his father being a trans women aka being who she really is, isn’t on the same page as being embarrassed by the mother’s job
@@AleksandarBell no I know. But she said that like it was some deep hidden subtext when it’s just text. It’s like if was like “Idk if you can tell, but there are some clues in Friends that Rachel ran away from her marriage and that’s how she met the rest of the cast” when it’s literally what happened.
I remember ( have not seen the show in a while ) they most of Chandlers probalms where with his perent having a lot of other things going on .
@@AleksandarBell this is a misstatement though, come on. His problems with his mom don't have much to do with her job. Instead it has to do with her behavior, which he is embarrassed by and it boils down to who she is overall.
Agreed. Charles/Helena's is a BAD parent. The queers-ness never read to me as why Chandler had an issue. It was Charles fucking everything that moves.
I assumed she believed she was a gay man who performed drag and then over time realised she was actually a trans woman 🤷♀️
I actually like that interpretation ☺️
Since she was played by a cis woman, which is what they did when portraying a trans woman then, I assumed "daddy" transitioned at some point.
Same. It didnt read hard to me
Agreed. I've known several such individuals.
Came to say the same, especially in the 80s and 90s, some "boy" child with unexplained feelings could often end up in the gay drag community as the safe place for gender stuff, and only later figure out there's something going on beyond the immediate/surface obvious context of "gay man liking certain expressions". Chandler's trauma and shitty jokes around it all aside, Helena is quite accurate.
Other moments that I found interesting:
At the wedding Monica asks Rachel to chat to Charles, describing them (regrettably) as ‘the tall man in the dress’ - and Rachel ends up talking to a tall square-jawed (implied) cis woman. Intentionally or otherwise, this illustrates the futility of bathroom laws and gender markers in general.
Also, in the episode when Chandler helps Joey with his eyebrows, it demonstrates how Chandler might still be embarrassed about the skills he acquired growing up around drag queens, but he can accept and even be proud of them - and this is absolutely portrayed as a good thing and a maturing in his part.
As you say, endless issues across the run, but some good messaging in there too.
Not to mention 'A-man-duhhhh!'
Chandler being uncomfortable with gay, queer or feminine things is always presented as an issue he has and it comes from his relationship with his parents. Friends despite the time it came out always had a very positive message when it comes to being comfortable with your feminine side as a man and it really thought me how to not stress about how manly I am growing up.
you missed an opportunity at the beginning.
"no one told you life was gonna be this gay"
Gay and trans are different things.
@@gibbogibbogibbo its... a joke...
@@gibbogibbogibbo Okay, you make a pun off of "trans" using a line from the theme song or of an iconic line from the show.
said this two times within the next 5 minutes after reading this lol
Is that my good personal friend Nick Mullen?
Fun fact, originally Chandler was supposed to be a gay character but the network wasn't cool with it, you can still see a lot of the remains of that idea in the first season as Chandler's sexuality is joked about a bit.
im not saying we were robbed but we were definitely robbed
Chandler is definitely bi, in my opinion. At the very least bi-curious
That Chandler Monica hooking up thing seemed forced to me anyway.
He is super straight
The same thing happened with Julian Basheer on DS9 and we were totally robbed
THIS!
For nearly two decades, I wanted to (kinda) be a woman, but I couldn't be trans, cause I wasn't gay, nor wanted to be a prostitute or a drag queen.
Thanks 90's and 2000's general culture for wasting my youth, I don't feel even a bit nostalgic😤
Clarification: I started hrt 4 months ago, and turns out I was bi anyway.
its never too late to be yourself!!
hope you go well on your journey.
Just want to say congratulations!
The 90s also had a whole lot of “hey so the main thing gay and trans people do is get AIDS and die miserably by that or murder”. The very first movie I ever saw that featured queer people living happily was The Birdcage. (I turned out to be non-binary and wow three decades of confusion over “why do I hate being a woman but love the idea of being a drag queen” makes a lot more sense once you know there’s other options beyond just A or B!)
I'm 35. I have strongly felt like a man for as long as I can remember. I've kept it visually hidden because when I dress masculine I get threats and stuff. Hiding who you really are hurts so much. 90s media didn't help me other than solidify that I'd I were to be myself openly I'd be kicked at the very least. People in society solidified that if I expressed who I am openly I would be in danger. I'm just not brave enough to deal with that.
I'm so happy that you're finally getting to live your truest self. I hope you finally feel like the person you want to be. You're inspiring and I hope the world gives you nothing but the best. 💜💜💜
@@lolafierling2154 Oh please, I'm not brave, I'm an absolute coward. I just couldn'tstand seing myself turn into a creepy old man in front of my own eyes.
I'm not even out of the closet yet, my current plan is keep boymoding until I basically look like the butchest lesbian.
(The picture is from a convention, don't count)
Edit: I'm 32, may not be too late for you.
Can we all just take a moment to thank Hollywood for unintentionally making every Gender Cop look like an absolute idiot when they say “we can always tell”
This isn’t me hand waving all the harm that they’ve intentionally done, it’s just a small silver lining so that I can laugh instead of cry
I always noticed the contrast between the positive-yet-clumsy trans representation and the blatant fatphobia and found that weirdly cruel.
As someone who spent half their life so far (12 out of 22 years on this earth) having been a "body positive" transphobe, and is now learning more about myself and my relationship with gender (namely the fact I'm *_far_* from Cis): "Body Positivity" is just a destructive as transphobia, just instead of being systemic oppression, it encourages people to oppress themselves. In some ways it's not as bad, in others it's worse.
In the case of transphobia, people spread disinformation about the transition process and its effects, as well as falsely claiming that children are forcibly transitioned on a systemic level. In short, transphobes claim being transgender is harmful when it actually isn't.
"Body Positivity" meanwhile claims that being morbidly obese is just peachy keen, in spite of the fact that it _does_ cause immense physiological and psychological harm. I myself have not only witnessed it multiple times (even claiming a member of my family), but also _experienced it myself_. In short Body Positives claim that being fat isn't harmful when it most certainly is.
I've lost 75 pounds in the last 12 months, and I'm still considered Obese at 280. I've been in the morbidly obese category. I still have the stretch marks, and with how long I let myself stay like that those marks will probably never heal.
To be clear, I don't "hate fat people", nor do I fear them, nor am I averse to them. What I do hate are those who would try to take being fat and make it something to be proud of. *_ESPECIALLY_* when they themselves aren't fat, and never have been. If someone is fat, and wants to love themselves regardless, more power to them. But for people to try and erase the stigma associated with being fat, a stigma that serves to dissuade people from letting themselves go, I can't help but see it as being either despicable, or at the very least ignorant.
A message to anyone out there that is morbidly obese and hates their body: don't let it discourage you, but don't give in to the "just be proud of it" crowd. I've seen too many people try and fail to find their footing in that mindset, saying it but not believing it. Look at your body and instead of thinking of it as what you _are,_ think of it as what you _have._ Think of it as the material which you can sculpt your true self out of. Once you get started, keep it going. You won't see results for a while, but once you do you won't want to stop. Believe you can be/look, if not exactly how you want, then at least somewhere close enough to it to be happy.
This is an interesting perspective. I’ve never been obese myself but am somewhat conflicted on this issue. I think it’s one thing to say that people shouldn’t encourage obesity, I know there’s people like that and that to me is body positivity gone too far. But at the same time if actual concern for a persons weight is replaced with mean bullying (as you see in Friends), I think that’s also a problem, and usually doesn’t help anyone lose weight
@@KitKatHexe I'm sure people do push that message but that's not how I've ever viewed body positivity. It's about letting go of all the shame and guilt and self hatred and judgement. As with a disability, it can still be debilitating and a negative impact on people's lives, but those emotions attached to it can make it much much worse.
While it's obviously wrong, i think it's because it's Hollywood and it was the 90s and early 2000s, you have INTENSE diet culture and you have a wave of pushing for queer rights, it makes sense for that to have been the case. But, again, doesn't make it right.
@@KitKatHexe I appreciate you going into detail about your journey. But that is not what body positivity is. Being proud of your body, and yes, your fat body just means having a general sense of pride in what your body does for you and finding joy. I myself had a weight-loss journey and it was the body neutral and body positive movement that helped me. When you hate yourself and want to unalive. I hadn't left my apartment for anything other than school for almost 2 years because I was so ashamed of how I looked. Seeing fat people be happy and free on the internet was what encouragement I needed to live my life no matter how I looked, to go to the gym and not care how others felt about me. It was hard but that shit saved my life.
Body positivity isn't about promoting obesity. I will say there are some people that hold on to the far identity a bit too much and are unreasonable in what they showcase. However, I am a firm believer that going out, being happy and living ones life promotes mental and physical wellness that are associated with better outcomes. It's difficult to cultivate mental and physical wellness if you sit in your house all day, isolated, but, going out and living are going to be more powerful, positive forces than guilt and shame ever could. Now we have workout gear, clothing so many things that fat people can use to live healthy lives. For real, the pros of body positivity far out weigh the cons (pun intended).
fun fact: Alexis Arquette (who played the drag queen waitress) was Courtney Cox's then-sister-in-law, the late great Alexis Arquette. at the time she was primarily a drag queen and an actress but she later came out as trans (Courtney's ex-husband/Alexis's brother David Arquette has described Alexis as something akin to being genderfluid, but i'm not going to put any label on her that she didn't openly embrace--she is, however, very much Not Cis).
Why did I not know David and Alexis were related ☠️
As an immigrant who watched friends to learn english, I was super confused by Chandler's dad. I should also note there was never any mention of drag shows in my culture, so I was also super confused about that and chalked it up to a "Las Vegas thing." But what I learned from how the character was portrayed was that Charles really loved her son, Chandler, and had a really good sense of humor. I liked her character. I liked her character way more than Chandler's mom. And this representation in Friends taught me not to judge people simply by their queerness. So, as problematic as that representation was, it did teach a positive lesson to a clueless immigrant like me.
Chandler's mom had no redeeming qualities
She didn't mock or belittle Rachel's interest in writing, and albeit in a not very helpful way, could be viewed as encouraging Rachel's creative spirit. Admittedly, it's about as bright a point in her character as a single birthday candle stuck to the back of a playing card floating in the middle of the Pacific at midnight during a typhoon, but it's not nothing.
Fuck Nora Bing! Lol and also, that's rad. Very interesting (: thank you for sharing
your point about representation mattering is so true. I'm a black cis lesbian and for the longest time, i couldnt come to terms with that because I have usually only ever seen white lesbians. I never really thought it was something that was for me and I found myself wondering why I felt so different. It wasn't until I got a new job where the majority of the people there are queer and poc that I realized that isn't true at all. But people really don't think that media has an impact on these things and they do!
Absolutely agreed, media kinda makes it seem like you can only be one level of minority and nothing else. It's so misleading and kinda stops personal exploration
That Will and Grace ep must've been important then!
Too bad the reverse puppy episode
Karen is bi and they won't take that away from me
THIS!!!! I’m an AFAB nonbinary person and some people genuinely think only AFAB people can be nonbinary because it’s the only kind of rep they see, so they think being nonbinary is a “girl thing” which makes NO sense and defeats the point entirely 💀💀
I feel this
@@xwormbonesx fr so many (cis) people view being nonbinary as being "woman-lite" 😭
An added nice nod was that Chandler's old swim coach who Charles had an affair was now actually Helena's pianist, as well as (I believe) potentially their (maybe her) partner of multiple decades by that point in the show.
Friends showing queer characters in long lasting relationships is more than most shows have done for us (including queer shows)... And that's depressing.
Lmfao 😂😂 totally forgot. Something about a pool boy, too hahaha. And Chandler used to be the second one from the left lmao
Honestly though, isn't it wacky that Friends were able to somehow able to do this better (even if it is mishandled a lot and is mostly from a cis heteronormative view) than HIMYM 10 years later.
I talk about this all the time. Friends aged better even tho its older than himym in many ways I believe
The two biggest sitcoms after Friends, HIMYM and TBBT were both somehow way worse about trans people, gay people and race. Like yes, friends was absurdly white, but 10 years later so was HIMYM and TBBT made a mockery of the 1 main character of color
I watched HIMYM in its entirety last month for the first time and I was so astonished at all of the transphobic the show had,
Like I genuinely couldn’t believe how many jokes they had directed to trans-women specifically at every single corner
@@alrightalrightalright6240FOR REAL like Friends didn't do great, but HIMYM is yeuchhhhhh
As someone who's watched maybe 1 ep of HIMYM, I'm kinda surprised that a younger show with Neil Patrick Harris did worse (at least from what you're saying)
I was born in 1971. Grew up with 70s, 80s, and 90s "representation" in a conservative religious environment. It messed me up so badly I repressed whole decades of memories because I thought even questioning was unthinkable.
At 51 I know now I'm a non binary trans girl (who is still stuck in the U.S. south so not very transitioned after my first year) who's also bi but it was a long painful road getting there.
happy that you were able to claw through all of that to find yourself. It took me a good 30 years for the egg to crack, and like you said- all of those decades of poor representation and survivalism had made it very difficult to peel back the layers of my masks and let the real me breathe.
@@hexonyou Thank you. It was 35 or so for me (puberty kicked in a little late and before that I was happy just thinking of myself as a kid rather than a boy) Happy for you too.
Yep, it's official, I have no idea what a girl is anymore
non binary is made up woke gibberish
I was born in 1967 and also stuck with religious conservative parents. The strongest memories of childhood were being punished constantly for doing anything "girly" and being forced into sports to "man" me up, thank "god" they never caught me in my sisters' clothes! I suppressed my feelings for years in order to survive and at 50 when I almost died and needed open heart surgery all those feelings resurfaced during me rehab. I still hide but am starting to come to terms with who I really am.
Really enjoying your critical analysis of trans representation in the media we grew up with! Another excellent video.
Monica trying to get the lingo right and Chandler acting uncomfortable is similar to my friends being around me. The guy friend acts super straight around me (a nb bisexual) and my girl friends try to be supportive even if they don't understand it very well (i don't mind the pronouns so it's alright, but they show me all the hot guys they see on the streets and that was an enlightening revelation)
this was honestly such a mature way to approach the claims that friends is transphobic, i honestly found this genuinely interesting, unlike the news outlets just blatantly saying that i's a bigoted nightmare, it really shows that you did research into the topic and that gets a lot of respect out of me
It kind of feels like a moot point and it doesn't correct anything, but honestly, good on the creators to admit they made a mistake, considering the precedent set by Jowling Kowling Rowling that was refreshing to hear
JOWLING KOWLING ROWLING LMAOOOOOO THATS GREAT
@@lonk2026I just go with J.K. Umbridge, after that most hated of characters she's come to most resemble.
@@christopherb501 Loool
If we are being honest, Chandler's hate for his dad ( and his mom) is mostly because they were not good parents. They were fighting all the time, they were too open sexually, and slept with people that their kid knows. And he just left him to follow his dreams.At least his mom stayed and raised him.
Yeah there's a joke about him having walked in on them having a threesome when he was like, 7 or 8? Which is kinda yikes. The lack of boundaries from both his parents are apparent, especially his Mom. He probably extended that fact to his dad, though at the end of the day his dad was just being open about their identity and it was hard for Chandler to see the differences between those things
@@stevielambert2552 Indeed. I'm all for sex-positivity and not keeping kids cloistered and ignorant, but that is a LOT.
You mentioned the introduction of Kathleen Turner but didn't mention that Morgan Fairchild who played Chandlers mum was also known for playing the sexy conniving character in the 80s so they really did do some interesting casting with the two actresses
Also not touched on, the "I get it, you're straight" waitress in the drag show clip was actual trans woman Alexis Arquette.
@@marblemunkey Interesting! I didn't realise
As someone who's seen Mork and Mindy, Fairchild has played those types a loooong time.
One queer part of Friends I found interesting was Phoebe, and how her attraction to women was sort of played off as a one-off thing (even though it was mentioned multiple times). I wonder what may have happened if Friends expanded on that?
I don't remember that do you have examples? This is sincere I'm not trying to be a dck
@@LK-my3wq It's been a while since I've seen the whole series myself, so I had to look some stuff up lol. Here's some examples:
-Phoebe kissed Rachel to see if she was as a good of a kisser as Rachel said she was (S7 Ep20)
-Phoebe considered asking out Monica & Ross' cousin since Phoebe isn't related to her (Chandler & Ross also found that cousin attractive) (S7 Ep19)
-Phoebe implied she may have had a threesome w/ her friend, Mary Ellen (S9 Ep3)
If you'd like to know more, I'd recommend nonmonosexualityinfandom's Tumblr post about it! :)
There was also the episode that Winona Ryder guested where Rachel was talking about kissing her in collage and it turned out after denying the kissing that Winona was in love with Rachel all this time.
bro wake up new Lily video
Literally me
Same
great video! as a lesbian who grew up watching friends, i always found charles bing SO interesting as a character, even with the little screen time she had. i thought she was just awesome, beautiful and confident, which inspired me so much as a young closeted kid. also unrelated but may i add that your voice is soooo relaxing to me
Looking back on shows like Friends and TBBT really made me realize that growing up I just laughed at what everyone else did even if I didn't get why. It's something I still struggle with cuz I have super bad abandonment issues.
It kinda sucks how we often get told by society and those around us what we should and should not find funny, even when the humor ends up being at the expense of our own demographic.
The South Park example makes me sad cuz it could have been a great opportunity to show why people detransition and how often it's due to society making it SO unsafe that they essentially HAVE to in order to just live their lives.
Me too, growing up I was always scared of not seeming normal, so I laughed at everything I thought I was supposed to be laughing at. I ended up a big fan of things with horrible jokes in that I'd never be a fan of now, but hey I love the costumes and attention to detail and everything about everything besides the humour I don't usually get. My tastes started refining once I moved out and stopped having a television. Internet videos ask a lot more active choosing from you than a vague few channels. I started to realise I could have standards, and that it was okay to like one thing but not like another. God damn it took me a while.
There is a social taboo nowadays (and perhaps longer into the past as well) around disliking humour, isn't there? Lots of people around who wrap their sense of quality up (plus that of others) in how able they are to find literally anything funny (and inoffensive). Such a desperation. I guess a lot of people go through it.
Yeahhhh that was about the time I stopped watching South Park. Valuable lesson in the excuse of "we have a go at everyone equally" being both a] no excuse at all, and b] never really true anyway. I sat back and asked myself "why am I still watching this?" and didn't come up with an answer. Then I asked myself "hang on, why ARE they all kids? Why choose to set it like that?" and that was quite uncomfortable to be plain, thinking back on a whole bunch of moments.
Viewership and "the done thing" starts off so automatic doesn't it?
When you think about it, laugh tracks were like "masking" cues, like an attempt at teaching (indoctrinating) people to know what was appropriate to laugh at, and what wasn't.
@@RedSntDK I actually think they're a little underrated... they can work when they're done well, and a show dropping them can make it dramatically worse. But it's SO easy to misuse them in exactly the way you suggest.
My wife and I were just talking about the queer aspects of this show a few days ago, but it's been so long since either of us watched Friends that my recollections were super fuzzy. I remembered it being not great but also not as outright offensive as some other sitcoms, so having a refresher in the form of a very thoughtful dissection of the episodes involving queer and specifically trans aspects is very nice.
Thank you for the video! Your work is always extremely enjoyable and engaging
kinda hilarious that the later verification that Charles is trans has MORE textual validation than the Dumbledore thing. At least this you can look at and think "yeah okay I get where they were trying and failed" whereas Dumbledore is just made up after. That invitation scene really was well done, and similarly I despise Ross as well but the scene with him affirming Susan was just lovely.
There’s a lot of Ross hatred in me too. Someone in high school once said that I was the Ross of our friend group, and I have never been so mortified or insulted in my life.
0:19 Your description of the show pretty accurately describes why i never really got into it 😂
Chandler was a closeted trans girl lashing out due to internalised transphobia (mostly due to childhood trauma) and I will die on this hill
the way chandler jumps in the background at the word "penis" is just priceless.
I appreciate Kathleen Turner’s apology. At the same time, I feel like her performance is largely what makes Charles more than a joke. Another actor or actress could have taken the same material in such an awful direction. It helps that, unlike HiMYM, Friends had some more plausible deniability in the writing of its queer characters. But the actors who played all of them, despite the representation issues inherent in cishet folks playing us, did have a raw sincerity that made me feel like they transcended the stereotypes they were otherwise written into.
Upon a rewatch of only the episodes dealing with queerness, Friends has a strange place in my ranking of media. It was never my show, but it was my mother’s, and I wonder now if it helped her at all when came out. It seems like sometimes media that does a shitty to ambiguous job with surprise moments of sincerity is liking hiding animal meds in peanut butter.
Love this. Friends is still a big comfort show for me but It really struck me when rewatching how not completely terrible the queers were, despite how much gen z generally hates it.
What I love about her is that pretty much the only "joke" about her is drag/trans/gay. She's portrayed as a self-confident woman who isn't arrogant or mean-spirited, who can take an insult in her stride, she comes across as being very comfortable with who she is, like she's conquered the haters and grown stronger from it. She's actually a very, very good role model in that regard since she does seem to be capable of handling her emotions in a mature way. Of course there's the snide remarks at her ex-wife, but when Nora fires back she raises her head and smiles and is (at least from what it looks like) impervious to it, making Nora look like the one "losing" that battle. It would've been SO easy to make her look like a terrible person and kinda reinforce that link of "drag/trans/gay equals bad" (like the huge number of trans-coded serial killers etc.) but they didn't! She's definitely a more admirable person than Nora if you ask me!
A huge part of representation is not only having the characters on the screen, but also portraying them as strong, resilient, fully realized people. We don't just need to see people who are like us and going through the same things, but also people who have come out the other end stronger, role models whom we can look up to.
As much as I watch video essays about Friends's problems, the intro still fills me with calm and peace and safety every single time. This show was a happy place for me, a promise my life would be amazing when I'd grow up. Of course it isn't what I thought it would be, but that really helped me to get through some shit.
I love the video essays about friends, it was a great show at its time. I never noticed the mocking, being from a very different culture than America. I'm 26 and it's always been normal to be gay here. I really liked Susan and Carol.
I mean rarely anything is 100% bad? As also Lilly said in the video, there’s also some kind of progressive stuff in the show. For me it was one of rare experiences, though fictive, with lgbt+ people, otherwise I’m honestly scared how I would grow up in the conservative closed small environment where I was born. As a. kid I didnt pick up on all the offensive stuff
I would say that LGBT rights - and especially perceptions of gay and lesbian people - have come on massively and relatively quickly. I'm coming up on 40 and I can remember when a show having a gay character at all was rare, and would be cause for controversy regardless of how they were portrayed.
As much as people can be derisive of comedic portrayals of queer folks as "not serious"... those were the ones that I think really helped. People can feel genuine attachment to fictional characters, and for a lot of people, the fictional gays on TV were the first ones they knew personally. It creates an attachment that made us harder to dehumanise. This, I think, is why the far-right get so tetchy about minorities getting media representation. They know it works.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 This is pretty much exactly what I said myself. I never even said it's bad.
Ross not being the worst about his expartners new gender,is progressive, not that deep, but still.
@@FTZPLTC Yeah, this has been it for me as a pansexual. All the representation is important, it humanizes and normalizes people.
I don't think it's fair to call Monica's comments in that part "jovially not quite getting it". She is openly admitting that she doesn't know what pronouns to use, is signaling that she wants to use the right ones, AND is admitting that her not knowing is a personal failing on her part. Imo, that is 100% getting it and I was really impressed that a mainstream show from the '90s had a character approach it that way.
That's not to say that it's not offensive (imo its mildly offensive) nor that Trans people shouldn't be offended (up to each individual). I'm just saying that I think "getting it" and "knowing the social norms" are two different things.
Still less offensive than _her_ dad in a few episodes.
I am a trans man and growing up rewatching friends, I rrally LOVEDD when Charles Bing was finally shown in screen. It was the first time i ever shaw a gender queer person on the show. And even though it was not done the best, I absolutely agree with your statement about taking Charles Bing back as a trans icon, being unapologetically herself in the context of the hostile world surrounding her. Literally the coolest and strongest women to be on the show!!
Not sure if this matters, but the end credits read "Kathleen Turner as Helena Handbasket". I've always assumed that it was a way of indicating that it's the name we're supposed to refer her to as. Although, maybe the reason is that the name Charles wasn't revealed until her second appearance.
Oh, I’ve been waiting for this video! 👀 Friends is one of my comfort shows and I like the way it portrays toxic masculinity (Ross not wanting his kid to play with dolls, etc) as something to laugh at. It’s clearly shown as a character flaw, and not portrayed as a good thing. Trans representation was a bit more muddled and flawed (the point you mentioned about Chandler’s dad’s identity being unclear) but I liked Chandler reaching out and reconciling with his dad…🥺
Also, for some reason (maybe because I saw Friends after it ended and there was already a lot of discourse about it) I always saw Chandler’s dad as 100% a woman, definitely not a gay man who does drag… 🤷🏻♀️
@@ConstanzaRigazio probably because Kathleen Turner is a cisgender woman
Maybe this is me projecting some meaning that wasn’t meant to be there, but I first watched friends as a teenager in 2013 and it was always clear to me that Helena/Charles was a trans woman that first thought she was a gay drag queen and then realized her true identity. Maybe it was because I grew up in a different era than the show was made in, but that’s how I always interpreted it.
@@EliVaz We didn't really think in those terms the same way in the 90s
@@EliVaz Yes, that’s also how I saw it.
Do you have any interest in covering Ouran High School Host Club? I feel like way Haruhi's dad is portrayed has a lot of similar problems to Charles Bing, not to mention the chestnut of Haruhi's gender.
Haruhi expresses that they don't care whether they're perceived as a girl or a boy, which makes me think they're non-binary, but Tamaki reacts to his attraction to them with extreme gender absolutism -- you're a girl and you should act like this -- and it's often not really pushed back against.
Especially in the beach episode where Kyoya does the thing, it really feels like the show is siding with the host club and saying that haruhi shouldn't have defended those girls because of their gender.
Also, Haruhi often begrudgingly goes along with the host clubs shenanigans, so I don't know how much of them being dressed up as a girl and referred to as a girl actually bothers them. You get a lot of conflicting information-- Haruhi often doesn't want to participate but not for those stated reasons.
Episodes I think that really go into this are The Sun The Sea and The Host Club, A Challenge for Lobelia Girls' Academy, A Day in the Life of the Fujioka Family, Operation Hikaru and Haruhi's First Date, and Lobelia Girls' Academy Strikes back.
I kind of want to make this video myself, lol, but I keep talking around in circles and struggle to come to a conclusion because I really don't know where the show or the characters genuinely stand.
If I remember correctly I think the manga might paint a more full picture🤔 But I believe it's just as Haruhi says, she doesnt care if people think shes a girl or a boy so she doesnt mind dressing up In dresses or pants
16 years on and I can't believe we still didn't get S2
Haruhi also uses “ore” which is a gender neutral pronoun in Japanese basically
This is largely me projecting, but as a gender-apathetic person who really only lives as a cis woman out of convenience, I saw more of that in Haruhi than what we may typically think of when we hear 'nonbinary.'
@@xwormbonesx is it?? Momentarily leaving aside the argument of whether anything can be truly gendered - ore is by and large used by men and masculine people and though it can be used by women etc my understanding was always that to do that is transgressive or rebellious in some way; granted I’m not a native speaker but it has never been presented to me as a gender neutral first person pronoun, but overwhelmingly is portrayed as masculine
"Viva Las Gaygas!"
"Unfortunately that IS correct."
Slays me every time 😂☠️
@J N it's a play on words, instead of "Viva las Vegas" like it usually is, it's "Viva las Gaygas" because Chandler's father is mega gay
@@Needwagon4Speedwagon A play on words is supposed to be clever and funny. That was neither ???
I used to watch Friends with my mom all the time as a kid and in regard to these two episodes, I mostly remember being mad at Chandler for being so mean to his dad
What I love is that the show validates this perspective, and doesn't portray Chandler's meanness positively. When Chandler complains about his dad (prior to meeting her), none of his friends join in, and if there's a joke it's about Chandler's fussiness. But what seals the deal is the moment when they reconcile, you know this is the happy conclusion of an emotional arc for Chandler. The show mocks Chandler's meanness and celebrates his kindness.
A thing I want to underline about Turner: in the early 90s, starting with (I think) Serial Mom, she did this pivot from being an actress who took mostly roles banking on her sex appeal to doing increasingly camp roles.
I think this was an explicit career choice rooted in 1) diminishing opportunity for aging actresses 2) diva worship being a commodity that sex symbols aging out of marketability accrue even greater dividends on than young actresses, but whatever the reasons, Turner was kind of recognisably a gay-adjacent actress in the same kind of way that Catherine O'Hara is now (and, lbr, kind of was then too).
I feel really reluctant to give Friends credit for much of anything, but this actually strikes me as really smart casting? I don't know of many cis straight actora who could have made the role do this, and not be a punchline, who would have been in budget, and while Friends did air on NBC, the same channel as Will and Grace, I don't know if a working drag queen would have flown under S&P. (And, as much as I would have loved this going to Charles Busch: W&G set a very good precedent for Cis Actresses In Very Obvious Drag Roles.)
And Turner was kind of perfect- she had already done drag in Serial Mom, her command of the vocabulary of glamour and sultriness was legit and the diva in middle age works in a similarly desexualised pocket to the one many a high femme camp queen works in, and she could actually play the character in that Almodovarian ambivalently-maternal space rather than as a butt of a joke.
So: more things that make this kind of weird ambivalent character even more ambivalent. Yay? Boo? Both at once?
I think being critical of the things you love is a crucial part of consuming art. And the message that the artist intended to put out is only part of the equation. The interpretation of the people consuming it is just as/if not more important. This was such a great analysis.
...I shouldn't have laughed quite so loudly at "so, you're bald"
i love cathleen turner. she was the voice of constance (the house) from monster house. ♥️ also wife of hank hills boss
And the absolutely amazing Jessica Rabbit.
@@FTZPLTC Body Heat. Romancing the Stone.
@@HuntingViolets Personal favourite: The Man With Two Brains
Serial Mom
@@FTZPLTC Sue Collini.
Since as long as I can remember, I’ve wanted to sing and act both men’s and women’s parts. (I can’t imagine what the high school drama teach thought of me expressing interest in playing Sophie OR Sky lol). Anyway, I recently came out as trans masc, and my day-to-day presentation is pretty masc. however, I bought a blond wig and filmed myself singing various fem parts from my favourite shows, and it was bloody awesome. I’m too young to go in bars (just a few more months!!) but I might be a queen?
I truly love and appreciate how in depth you get with these analyses!!!
I legit love these videos
I am a greedy, gluttonous gremlin and desire more of these analyses
But I'm also a patient gremlin
So I used to be a huge fan of friends. I thought it was really progressive by virtue of it being the first piece of media I watched that not only portrayed lesbians but a lesbian wedding.
Looking back I realized the way those women were treated, not to mention the treatment of Chandlers dad, left a lot to be desired.
it is not ok to cheat on your partner, even if you're trans or gay. Ross has every right to be angry at his exwife and her partner. ChandIer's mom has every right to be angry at her ex.
The wedding scene was a game-changer for most media at that time. and was one of the reasons I liked the show because, despite its flaws, it showed some good rep at a time when most did not.
feeling called out at 0:42... ive literally watched the series more than 30 times T_T
The only thing I want to add as an elder millennial who loves Friends (but def not Ross), is that Chandler is also ALMOST as uncomfortable with his mother, who is a famous erotica author. I think he holds a lot of shame in general around his sexuality due to his dad leaving his family for another guy, and his mother having an "embarrassing" career. He also went to all-boys school. So I can't imagine life was kind to a young Chandler Bing, who's wealthy family was also probably the subject of a lot of whispers behind their backs. I think his parents were both not great at handling telling him about the divorce. Plus, he shares a lot over the series about the kinds of situations both of his parents put him in the middle of.
None of this is meant to excuse Friends' problematic episodes or anything you said, because everything is very valid. Mine is more of a "it's probably 90's progressive that he ended up as well-adjusted as he was depicted."
Agree that there should have been more explanation, and an actual trans person cast. But searching for perfect representation, is hard. Still one of my favorite moments. The gutted look on “his parent’s” face. The shame on chandler’s. The sadness on Monica’s. It’s so honest, and heart breaking. Idk everything else is white noise compared to that moment. Bc I don’t know anyone who couldn’t connect/ feel in that moment. Yes it was a comedy show. But moments like that are what kept people coming back.
I really appreciate this video. I watched Friends as a high school freshman and I didn't really have my gender figured out yet. The show was a huge comfort for me because corny sitcoms are my bread and butter, but even as a young and confused queer I could tell something was off. But I found some comfort in each representation of queerness in Friends despite all that. It's really nice to see somebody unpack the harmful aspects of the way Friends handles queerness without dogging the whole show or having a completely black and white view of its problematic nature. Friends isn't a very good show. But it is an alright show that fills a comforting enough niche that I'm glad when people acknowledge what made it work.
What an amazing take on the character. You managed to turn uninformed and offensive writing into a meta character that takes its meaning not only from the text, but also by acknowledging the limitations of its writers. I am fucking mind blown. It's such a fantastic way to view old media and reclaim characters. Wow. Fucking hell, Lily!
Love hearing a different perspective on choosing to see all the aspects of a character. Maybe as equally as I love Lily's hair, which is quite a lot
Your video on HIMYM was superb ! I would like you to talk about my favourite show, Criminal minds. They tried to be explicit with their support of non-cis people, lgbt, women, non-documented immigrants, POC, sex workers, fostered kids, basically almost any opressed population
So I guess this is Lily's version of a youtube short?
Oh my god.. thank you so, so much for making this video. The whole topic of Chandler's dad is something that's been on my mind for the longest time, especially since my last semi-rewatch years ago. Incidentally, it's also been on my mind alot TODAY, when I happened across this video right at the top of my recommendeds page. What a crazy coincidence.
Friends is a show still really nostalgic for me that, despite all its many flaws, I enjoy a lot. My first time watching it was far before I really knew I was trans myself. So to make these connections with consecutive years & rewatches has really been.. in itself, a microcosm of The Journey.
I've been pondering these things so much and with nobody to really talk to about it, because my friends who're cis and have seen it don't really get it or quite see my point, and well most people just don't care about the show so I can't get a second opinion the way I wish. So again, I am really glad to have found this video and to hear much of the same stuff I noticed pointed out by somebody else that gets it. Thank you.
My interpretation has also been that Chandler's dad is a trans woman. Because a drag queen doesn't really dress in drag in her daily life, does she? Or do something like show up to his kids wedding in full drag unannounced. It was, too, her being played by a woman that made me all the more confused as well as convinced that's what she WAS, despite the show attempting to tell us otherwise through other character's reactions to and treatment of her.
I am glad even just in retrospect to find out she really was intended to be trans, that they really just fucked up on it. Although the ramifications are bleak to think about, in a way I also feel (retroactively) seen, + hell yeah i was RIGHT this WHOLE TIME. I saw something there that really was there.
From a certain angle I think it's also pretty inspiring, that she continued to be unapologetically herself even when her own family rejected her, didn't understand or intentionally disrespected who she was. That she did not let that deter or muffle her self-expression and just.. being. At least not that we, as the audience, could see.
You could tell there was still love there, that Chandler even through his bitterness for what he perceives as his dad breaking up the family he did still appreciate [her] presence at the wedding and that the reconnection wasn't a disaster or wholly negative thing. It just was. And of course she cared for him and wished him well, even after all that time of him intentionally avoiding contact. Better late than never.. sort of.
This was the show where I learned about queer people, as a kid growing up in the 90s. I didn't quite understand everything (and refreshingly, the show didn't do a 101-style lesson about them), but I remember having a positive impression of lesbians and trans women after this show, so I'm glad I got this introduction and not the many worse ones I could have gotten from shows coming long after this was airing. Given how universally-popular this show was, I hope other people got to enjoy a positive introduction too.
I was a little worried going into this video because I didn't want to look back and learn that my positive experience was a product of rose-colored nostalgia, but it looks like it really does hold up!
Loved waking up to find this video was just uploaded! Thank you, Lily! 💕
It was interesting you brought up South Park, I was already thinking about it as a similar example of a show with weirdly good gay representation but consistently terrible transphobia, kinda had enough of their shit tbh. Like the trans moral panic is the perfect adults-doing-dumb-shit story for South Park, it would write itself, but instead we get Cartman gets a boob job and goes round saying this is totally a thing that happens completely unchallenged and I want to fucking scream. The many layered irony of my current Captain Hindsight profile pic is not lost on me here haha
Blessing us with another bound to be (Edit: it was) banger, thanks Lily :)
love ur point around 28:00 around reclaiming charles bing, that's a powerful interpretation
There isn't a laugh track in Friends they had a live audience. That's why they pause after a joke.
criminally underrated youtube channel
hoping to move into overrated anytime soon
@Cio Lake and you are certainly entitled to that opinion
@Cio Lake what weird ant hill to die on
Great video! I love watching your gender analyses of pop culture. On an unrelated note, you look stunning. The blonde really suits you.
As a cis gender male who grew up in the 90s, i believe the most negative impact friends (and other media) had on me was the reactions to being thought of as gay. You would see these types of reactions of disgust and being defensively hetero and think this is the appropriate reaction.
Great video! Keep it up!!
The rare nuanced video about a problematic piece of media ❤
I listened to a video by another creator who brought out evidence that Chandler was supposed to be gay from the start, but the network put a stop on it once the actor was simply so good they made Chandler a main character (I do remember reading and interview that said that Phoebe and Chandler were both supposed to be side characters and honestly looking back at season one it’s obvious for Phoebe), cause they didn’t want a gay character to be main.
I do also remember reading that the show got a lot of backlash about being immoral because in the pilot Monica sleeps with the guy on the first date 🙄 Personally I think that’s what they had that episode with Richard on the number of people they had sex with, you know, to make sure the audience know that she was >progressive but not slutty< or some BS like that.
My point being that it wasn’t always that what ended up being aired was the same that the writers wanted to do
Still on them for apparently not consulting anyone from the transgender community, likely not even population. It was the 7th season if I remember well, they definitely had all the resources available to write it well, the show was mega successful
My favorite part is when they say they’re broke in the theme song but have spacious multi bedroom apartments with large balconies big windows and an amazing view of New York.
I found your channel through the always sunny episode. I can't say how much it's helped me understand the feelings if trans people around these issues and realise things I've said and done in the past were hurtful. Keep up the good work!
I thought Helena's routine was made of "gay dad jokes" internationally, but Lily is probably right; the writers were just pandering to the straights.
Please do the early 80s cult hit Angel. About the teenage prostitute. It’s really cheesy and campy, but it humanizes societal outcasts and flips the narrative of the perceived morality of the majority. Quite ahead of its time.
One very small thing I want to point out is that it is possible for Charles Bing to be a trans woman and still retain the name 'Charles'. As a trans woman who kept my own traditionally masculine name, I'm quite open to this interpretation. Of course, I doubt this was the intention of the writers (it seems much more likely that they were simply too lazy to give the character a preferred name), but if we are going to claim Charles Bing as a trans character, I think it would be nice to recognise that small subset of trans folks who keep their birth names, even if those birth names are 'gendered'.
You are a breath of fresh air to my days of scrolling youtube and other social media
7:55 back up, that's Alexis Arquette - Courtney Cox's sister-in-law
I have no idea how they got along but I would hope that she* (Monica) would have a greater sensitivity to the culture despite it being the 90s when the discussion of pronouns and gender wasn't so out in the open.
your way of communicating is an entire mood for me
Quote Jurassic Park: “It could’ve been worse, John. A lot worse.”
Like, I’m not gonna act like it’s great or anything, but I at least admire the character drama, and Kathleen Turner is an icon.
Lily: “You’ve written like 500 words! That’s… a lot”
Also Lily: posts ten hour long video
Anyway, we’re here for it 🤣
goddamn Helena Handbasket is a GREAT drag name
I honestly am so thankful I grew up watching this show, even from an age that was probably way too young for the dating life of the characters. It was the first real gay rep I ever had, but I didn't even realize that fact until a couple years ago, because it felt so natural. Like it was just anotherpart of the world, and one that existed even when it wasn't on screen.
No one in my life really talked about queer-anything growing up, so there was really nothing to dispute this viewpoint lol.
I grew up knowing that being gay was okay and just another part of life for some people, purely by accident for everyone involved in teaching me.
There's probably a big chance I never would've noticed how big of a role this rep played for me, but that just goes to show how effective it was in a way.
It was natural, and nothing to gawk at, because everything was already a joke on friends, and Ross's and Chandler's uncomfortability to me was the butt of the joke anyway
Even as a little kid I always saw Susan and Carol as mostly foils to Ross whenever they showed up. They were the common sense folks, who were just living their lives, and Ross was the one who was being confronted with the need for some sort of growth and mildly failing constantly.
It's a really weird balance this show, but I'm glad little me was able to get such goodness out of it
This very much mirrors my own feelings on the show. While I love it for a lot of reasons, the jokes about queer people and queer related topics always made me uncomfortable, especially as I got older and learned more. And yet, I still think it did a surprisingly good job with representation for a show of its time. It's not perfect, not by a longshot, but it always felt like there was heart behind the writing.
But I also can't just ignore the things it does wrong. There are a lot of jokes about gay people that have aged really badly. And there's a joke that "Bi people are just kidding themselves" at the very end of one episode that made me cringe the last time I saw it.
Thinking back on this makes me interested to rewatch the King of the Hill episode with Dale's gay dad and see how well/terribly it aged too
Or the one where Peggy finds a trans friend who helps her find fitting shoes.
The podcast Gayest Episode Ever covers a lot of similar ground as Lily and has done an episode or two on King of the Hill. I’m not sure if they did the Dales dad episode, but the one on the episode where Peggy meets a trans woman is good
@@fireindaarcade couldn't find that podcast episode.
I'll say this, Friends was the first time that I (with my Mormon upbringing) realized that lgbt+ people were basically just normal people. When Ross' ex was giving birth and her partner described her by saying "the woman I love is giving birth," I swear I could almost hear the lightbulb in my head switching on.
Just finished watching the twilight video yesterday. Pleasantly surprised to get to watch this today! I love how you don't shy away from nuance! And the way you talk is both calming and engaging
I fucking love this channel. Not only for showing us some amazing points if view on trans people in media, but also pointing out that, these shows are flawed, but can have some amazing moments.
I forgot how heartwarming that bit in Vegas really was. For all its flaws, friends really nailed human connection. Then it slapped a laugh track on jokes aimed at queer groups 😂🤦🏼♂️
I’ve never actually been into friends, but damn, “I didn’t even have a chance to act like I’m okay with it” had me rolling 😂
Bloody love this. Hopeful and beautiful. Thank you
However I was hoping for a dream ballet at the end
Really thoughtful analysis. And you hit all the nails on the head.
the interesting thing about being a transparent for me is that i transitioned young enough that i haven't had kids yet. if i do the only parent they'll have seen me as is me being myself and i kinda love that c:
A difference that I feel is noteworthy between the clarifications about Charles Bing and Dumbledore is that the former comes from the authors explaining "this is what we wanted to say but mangled it because we did not understood pronouns yet" while the latter is just an excuse for TERFs to claim they are not bigots in another attempt to normalize transphobia.
Oh my god. How have I not subscribed to you already?
I’m always so excited when your videos turn up in my suggested feed. Bring on the queer media deep dives!
Ok but idk what i was expecting with Helena, she's beautiful!! I thought for sure she'd be like, an awful caricature or something but she looks beautiful i wanna cry 🥺🥺🥺🥺💕💕💕
I really appreciate your point that the queerness in Friends is neither all good or all bad, but is messy and somewhere in between
I appreciate there is a clear shame in Chandlers voice when he says they are getting married. I always saw it as him realizing this is the first time his dad is learning about it and that he wishes he had told his dad earlier
"Having an existential financial crisis" is basically my whole life 😢