Yeah and reading the comments they have lost a lot of sales. Wasn't really my plan, I just wanted to show others my experience. They have done it to themselves.
Not only bike sales, I’ve changed plans from buying panniers, screen etc for touring on my 890. Am looking at buying another bike more suitable…not a KTM. Am keeping it in the hope there is a permanent fix later on
Especially when they are getting the parts made cheaply , which is the problem in the first place .. saving money on cheap top end parts & design is crazy , pressed on cam lobes with a crush fit .. really ? instead of manufacturing out of solid billet when you’ve already got a ready made customer base willing to pay the expense is nuts.
I work at a KTM dealership in Canada, we have seen this so many times. Latest one is a 22 901 Noreen, cams and followers were destroyed . Bike has 22 thousand mms on it. KTM was good enough to cover parts but not labour. KTM has lost its way, as good as the suspension and motor power is, I would buy Japanese over it every time. And don't even get me started on electrical problems.
You might wanna post that to the ktm forums, lots of delusional people over there claiming that these are all individual problems and the massive qc issues are exxagerated ^^
@@Sweetw4ter It seems the Chinese bikes are either sourcing poor quality parts (almost nobody machines their own engine internals) or are very poorly designed. There's plenty of old 640 LC4s still going strong (parts can now be a serious issue) and plenty of high mileage LC8 V-Twins. I've had a couple of electrical niggles with my RC8R over the 10 years I've had it, but it's never burned any oil (never need to top it up) and the filter and screens don't show any signs of swarf. The dealership has a poor reputation for their attitude amongst local independent mechanics, and I've noticed their attitude change over the years too.
hey did you new some bad fings about 390 adventure?i have it about 1month and did 2000km for now,nofing to suspiceus,but in cold days my speedometer have water smog in corners,ktm sad it not for waranty until its posible to see it,wtf
This video is the perfect example of why I choose to sell my KTM sooner than later. I'm blown away how many stories just like your Charlie are out there without KTM doing anything about it. Thank you for this
KTM UK are appalling! My 690 engine failed at 1700 miles. Warranty voided and KTM UK were the worst company I’ve had to deal with trying to resolve it. Then at 3650 miles I discovered my cam had excessive wear. Do not buy a poor quality unreliable bike from this tin pot company!
@@PastyDakar bro had the 701 husqvarna same shit. My valve dropped into my piston and everything went boom on the highway. My yearly trip and plans destroyed. Im done with this shit ktm and marketing bull. KTM - Know the mechanic
I thought the 690 was reasonably sound, what on earth did they say was the reason for voiding warranty after only 1700 miles? I'd see them in court for that one.
I would get rid of it asap, all that metal will be all in the engine. Big ends small ends will all have had metal pushed through them. I would take them to small claims court as it’s unreasonable to expect to have to change the cams ever few thousand miles
I have watched a few videos on this issue. My understanding is that all KTMs with these issues are now worthless. Who would want this headache? Even if the issue has been repaired/replaced who is to know if the same issues won't reappear in another 25000 kms or less. This leaves the owner, not KTM, out of pocket for now. KTM will suffer in the long term. I bought a used (6-year old but low kms) BMW K1200s many years ago from a Motoraad Dealer. Within a few days I had two breakdowns which the dealer sorted out very quickly. The collected the bike from my home and loaned me a GS while the repairs were done. A while later, there was a recall on the brake master cylinder. I made an appointment and rode to the dealer, had coffee and snacks while they fixed it. I would have no compunction about buying a BMW, new or used. Great service and a beautiful ride.
This is the sort of video that is more helpful than influencers/vloggers banging on about how wonderful a new bike is. If you have legal help by your insurance company have a chat with your solicitor to look at the Consumer Protection act 2015. This act outlines that some parts of items bought by consumers automatically have six years warranty defined as the "lifetime of the product". So the consumer has the right to expect some components that are "non serviceable" to last the lifetime of the vehicle. So the camshafts have failed due to poor quality materials, rather than failing to change oil. Cam shafts are not new technology, so every motorist has the right to expect that component to last if the service/oil has been changed. That is not wear from the last dealer service to when you changed the oil, if the valves were checked correctly that wear would have been noticed and you should have been advised by their technician. Then ask KTM to resolve, if they refuse go to a small claims court.
@@Adv_Charlie You have a very good claim. Let KTM show it's NOT poor quality materials at a small claims court. I think the UK has weaker consumer laws than other countries. All the best have a good trip.
The top comment is basically what I was going to say. You really have a strong case against KTM regarding the premature cam wear. Also KTM are fully aware of this issue but not willing to recall the bikes/quads to resolve this issue. It appears to me that during the manufacturing process, the cam lobes are not getting heat treated correctly and not deep enough while other lobes are just fine. I've done 2 of these engines and I can tell you that the surface hardening is Not deep enough as I checked all the none damaged lobes and on the surface they did seem to be heat treated correctly but after lightly scratching them with a tungsten scribe the metal below the surface was soft as mild steel. Also your fully within your own rights to service your bike yourself regarding oil, air and plugs. Take them to a small claims court along with all the evidence that you have found regarding this issue and you will win or KTM will settle out of court to make the problem go away. I wouldn't own another if it was given for free. Best of luck mate moving this forward if you do pursue it under the consumer act/trading standards as its clearly not fit for its intended use and have a great trip through the US and Canada.
2 acts fitness for purpose. Bike is not fit for purpose. Merchantable quality. Bike certainly isn't merchantable quality. It's not just the money you have paid. It's the loss of use, the inconvenience and probably the same thing is going to happen again. Go to court for a full refund minus depreciation + legal costs + what you have paid out in bills.
Friend's 2020 790 fall apart 2x last year. At 10K km, water in oil, hydrolocked. 2K km later, oil pump failure, was in pieces again. Both required full rebuild down to the crankshaft, engine case etc. Warranty claim, but the bike was in the shop for 10 months total. Parts were not available... Ridiculous.
The discoloration (bluing) is caused by heat, the fact it’s on just the one end of the camshaft with all the damage is indicative of a lack of oil. I’m just guessing, but this may be why the head had to be replaced to solve a known oil starvation issue at that end of the camshafts.
Not sure. Look at 5:56, no bluing there, just weared silver metal. Don't be fooled by the static photos in the video, because the colors are less "yellowish" so every color appears blue. I repeat: put the video at max resolution and zoom a little. I'm a CNC machinist and I see no high temperature damage at all. My suspect: they simply used a lot of not hardened camshafts on the assembly line of the factory. Human error? Costs saving? I don't know...
@@giuliobuccini208 The idea that one part of the camshaft is weaker than the other seems highly unlikely tho. If it's material weakness, we would see at least damages to the other camshaft lobes, but there isn't. It's more likely damages from unlubricated components.
@@DarkExternalHeartlobes are not hardened all at same time but one by one so it could be last lobe was cooled bellow hardening temperature before dip...
i kind agree with oil starvation either oil circulation too small so easily stuck (thats why newer head used new filter) or the oil pump not consistent
I had the exact same problem with my 2019 KTM 790R! I am pretty sure the problem is due to a clogged oil nozzle that lubricates each cam lobe. Very glad to see you make this video and I agree with much that you've said. My case ended up even more extreme than yours. It took me nearly a year to get the bike operational again and I ended up having to replace my entire engine. Fortunately I was able to find a used 2020 Duke engine for $2k. My story is a very long one, but it all began with the routine 18k first valve check where, like you, I discovered the worn cam lobe. Like you, I still love the bike. I just got back from a 6k ride from Seattle to Baja Sur and back over the winter season. Bike is running like a top, but I will worry about this problem repeating. It takes a piece of piano wire similar in thickness to a human hair to unplug the cam lobe oil jets, for which their are 8 (one for each cam lobe). Any fine piece of metal or dirt can clog these. I sometime wonder if a fleck of metal from say quick shifting doesn't get picked up by the oil filter magnets and clogs the oil jet. I also, believe you and I had he exact same intake manifold lobe wear. I suspect this is at the end of the oil lube pathway and so this cam lobe area may receive the least amount of oil pressure. Just a theory. I could be wrong, but surely KTM knows what's going on.
@@Adv_Charlie I do still have the same 2019 790R BUT it now has a new 2020 Duke 790 motor. The bike has 33,100 miles. Not entirely sure how many miles the used Duke motor from Edmonton, AL now has but guessing maybe 12k when I got it and now another 7k, so 19k. I did a valve adjustment 6 months ago. As noted, very long story.... When I discovered the damaged intake camshaft on the original motor, KTM said it would take at least 4 months to receive a new camshaft...i.e it was backordered... Well, I had trips planned and was impatient. I should also note that I did the valve check and all of this work myself using the official KTM shop manual. Sooo... As you noted, the bike was running fine even with the cam wear....So I replaced the damaged cam valve follower... cleaned out the plugged oil jet and reassembled with the worn intake camshaft thinking I'd go back in after the summer riding season when the new intake camshaft arrived. For the first 500 miles all seemed OK... but then going up a mountain pass at 80mph the bike died, imploded...timing chain skipped causing bent exhaust valve and broken valve guide. In theory, the valve guide should be replaceable, but after a month with a KTM dealership and another month with another shop I concluded that a new cylinder head was needed. That took 4 months. At this point I turned the project over to a local mechanic. When he finally got it running again...using a manual chain tensioner...it ran fine but the oil pressure light would come on above 3k rpm. After taking the bike to another KTM dealer I decided to sell the engine on eBay (noting its history, parts, and oil pressure issue). I then drove from Seattle to Edmonton to purchase the used Duke motor...put this in and all has been well since. Well, except for another cam chain tensioner scare. It is critical that this be set exactly as KTM calls for. More than you want to know I'm sure. But, bottom line... I still think if the cam lobe oil jet gets plugged this problem will re occur. I still love the bike. I'm 155lbs 5-11...have owned an Africa Twin, ridden T700s... ain't now way I'm going back to anything heavier...
I think you are correct, old Japanese bikes had camshaft bearing problems due to blocked oilways (usually caused by gasket sealer) but never camlobe failure as they ran in an oil bath !
@@maxflight777 that was pathetic. Even more so trying to sound arrogant on a motorcycle brand that has catastrophic engine failures brand new...on the damn video of it happening even.
My nearest KTM dealer in Billings Montana has a new 2024 790 Adventure for sale in black. I’m really tempted to buy it, however watching videos like yours reminds me that KTM doesn’t stand behind its products and customers, and they won’t correct an engineering problem that they know exists. Good luck on your trip. There are plenty of KTM dealers in the US.😎
I can’t believe KTM havnet sorted this. Its been a known issue for well over two years. They’re loosing so much trust in their brand and so many of their best customers over this Stupidity.
The off-road fan boys are keeping the brand alive. A majority of rave reviews come from pro-vloggers who are shills. If you recall from the OG Long way round. Charlie and Ewan wanted KTM’s and KTM said no. It was obvious that KTM knew their garbage would leave them stranded.
Every time I get slightly seduced by the potential excitement of owning a KTM, I come across a similar experience of KTM ownership like yours on TH-cam. KTM warranty should have helped you out. They didn’t. That e-mail from KTM basically says we won't do a good will warranty because you changed the oil (out of warranty). Good luck with the trip but this video should serve as a warning to potential new buyers. Thanks for the upload
Yeah!, I'm just about to lay down $23K for a new 2024 890 Adv r, now I think I better re-evaluate other options as this is just too much! KTM should stand behind this problem world wide, and should have a recall on all their engines affected...so sorry to learn of all the KTM owners problems, on an adv bike it is NOT ACCEPTABLE. If I were caught out with this issue on my trip in the Alti Plano I would be dead, or in the depths of British Columbias wilderness I'd be beast fiddles! Outrageous. Thanks so much for sharing....back to super reliable and excellent Honda I guess....
@@markjones3425 Buy a new Honda Africa Twin Adventure Sport, manual 6 speed like I did in 2018, twice the quality and 10 times the reliability and there are Dealers on every other street corner.
Logic from a customer that did their own service will never prevail against corporate logic that formed their own legal liability laws. Like it or not, they have zero legal motivation to throw money at a customer's issue who's done their own service, however innocent and proper that service was. It's the unfortunate issue of KTM corporation deciding how to run their own business, preferring to define liabilities and stick to them. What they do about internal affairs like bad metallurgy, bad design, bad quality control, bad whatever... that's another issue, which falls under what KTM wishes to do with their market image, declassified information, whatever.
2600gbp dude wtf!!! How can u be so calm about it.... My whole fucking vstrom 1000 cost this much. This isn't normal, KTM is getting away with this crap way too much. Please make as much noise about it as possible people need to know
I’ve been dealing with this for 3 months and real anger has worn off a little and it’s falling on deaf ears at KTM. The video is my way of helping to make noise of the issue
This video pushed me away from buying a KTM product this year and instead buying a new 2024 mt-09. I am sorry you are going through this and hope they do the right thing. One thing I learned over the years, squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am in outdoor power equipment business and if the dealer want's to fight for you they can get a mfg to make an exception.
You will not be disappointed with the MT 09. I have ridden several through their demo programs. Currently on a 2023 MT 10 and loving it. MT 09 would be my second choice or XSR 900. If you get the MT 09 you’re going to absolutely love the Performance and the quick shifter is flawless. The transmission and clutch are so good even if you’re not using the quick shifter. Just a great bike and you will have absolutely zero reliability issues.
I have been lucky so far with 18000 km on my 790 R 2020 with all service except the first one by me. Hearing some stories I feel a class action should be presented to KTM re these issues as I am sure some 790 / 890 engines that have had full KTM services "by the book" have still failed proving beyond reasonable doubt the issue is a KTM one. All said I absolutely love my bike :)
Great video mate and you are clearly the most reasonable guy on earth. I would have gone nuts over this. Absolutely unacceptable level of wear in a regularly maintained engine. This should have been covered by extended factory without question.
LOL FUCK that. Had the husqvarna 701 with 18000km and boom valve dropped on piston and boom went the engin and cracked engin cases. Done with this KTM - kick till monday brand
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Super Tenere 1200 owner here, 190.000km, just service, timing chain at 120k. Still oem clutch pack
Wow, what a bag of shite, im out of the industry a long time now, but used to see R1,s and fireblades approaching 100,000kms that would check fine for valve clearances.
Shameful response by KTM. I have a 2019 1290 Super Adventure R and was looking at replacing it with a Norden 901 Expedition at the end of this year to scale down, but now I think I will pass on that. My 1290 have been very reliable thus far (44k km on the odo). I am also a person that does my own services and I know how to do that properly. There have been way too much cam wear issues on this 790/890 series of engines for them to just sweep this under the rug. I will share you video wherever I can to make the world for KTM very hot.
@@C_R_O_M________ Thing is that none of this is new technology. What's more, the Chinese are able to do almost anything the west can these days. The two main issues with Chinese built stuff is corruption and giving a fuck. Much like the Russians, there are Chinese that would rather try to pocket the extra money if they think they can get away with substituting what the customer has asked for with something a touch cheaper. In Asia the attitude towards business is sometimes less "A deal's a deal" and more "It's your fault for not watching what I was doing more closely". However, I also suspect there is a problem with the corporate culture at KTM, given that they don't seem in the least bit interested in fixing problems.
@@C_R_O_M________ I think that's the issue. I saw on Freddie Dobbs' channel that a university professor in Australia had the same problem. Either he was a metallurgist, or he asked a colleague, to test the lobes. The conclusion was that they weren't for for purpose.
You explained this very clearly. I had an out of warranty claim for a cracked exhaust weld on a Honda 929RR. Honda sent out the zone rep and Honda covered it. The bike was clearly not abused and besides, how does a rider break a weld? It probably helped that it was at a very high volume Honda dealership. However, I think that the important difference is I bought from Honda and you bought from KTM.
The 2024 890’s still get delivered with the same faults the first 790 2019’s had. Loose swing arm bolts falling off, coolant leaks, etc etc. It’s basic quality control that is easy to fix at the factory but ignored. Even the frame design, the old 1090’s, 1190’s where prone to breaking the frame where the headlight mounts as uses two tiny pins, weakest design of any motorcycle let alone an off-road motorcycle. Was such an issue third party manufacturers had products to re-enforce the frame mounts. Knowing all this KTM used the exact same design on the 7/890’s and frames where being written off due to snapping at the headlight mounts. I know a few people it’s happened to and had it myself. KTM doesn’t seem to be doing iterative improvements. Instead they spend money developing demo mode that locks you out of functionality after after 1500km unless you pay to unlock the built in functionality
I know nothing about KTM's but last year while in Norway on our Goldwing I was talking to some Austrians while waiting at the port in Oslo and they had some very derogatory term for KTM reliability.
I neither claim to be a fan nor foe of KTM. I only wish to have the truth of the matter. How many motorcycles in these classes from KTM are sold that don't have issues, as compared to the ones that do? No one seems to be able to answer that question. People would rather scream and holler about "fanboys' denial" and others would rather say it's not the federal case some have made it. Either statement is extreme and deflects attention away from the question about how many.
The amount of damage on the camshaft is unbelievable! This should never happens, even if you drive for thousands of miles without oil. That is a clear manufacturing fault, IMO. No surface hardening was executed on that camshaft.
12k views in a matter of days. Hopefully this is now firmly on KTM’s radar as it doesn’t paint them in a good light and your video has video footage of the damage, level headed and paints a true picture about KTM warranty claims or lack of warranty on this issue for some customers despite the recent PR campaign they now have five year warranty
That new 5 yr warranty is only available to those getting every service interval done at the dealer for $129/hrs labor+ materials, shop fees..etc...might as well service it yourself...the 20 hrs of shop time is 3 grandby itself....I'd rather buy a replacement motor and bolt that in when needed
I am sorry to hear about your troubles and know how disappointing it is. I too had a "lemon" motorcycle years ago. Dealers response was always "they all do that". I went back to riding Japanese motorcycles and haven't had problems since. I hope this is the last of your problems with the KTM.
The shop will tell you its a soft lobe before wasting time checking.. doubt it was due to poor oiling as its mate in either direction wasn't rubbed out.. poor hardening gives same results.. a frustrating expirience..
@@rebekahfrench5747 I just watched a video where someone did the Rockwell test. And it was in spec. The issue comes down to the "in spec" is not good enough or a lack of lubrication. The latter can have many reasons. Too much oil, too little oil, clogging, wrong oil, bad design, bad manufacturing, ...
Had exact same issue, had problems with warranty claim but in Australia where we have strong consumer laws so eventually KTM covered all costs. The situation is we do not know if it’s going to happen again after replacement. Fantastic bike to ride, it’s a complete liability ownership wise, lost all faith in the bike and experience with KTM has been atrocious, will never own a KTM again.
That's why doing research is so important. This is nothing new. KTM have been acting like con artists for many many years. People need to wake up and stop supporting this scam
Thanks for posting this. KTM should cover this under warranty. I have owned KTM dirt bikes since 2001 as well as a 690 I bought in 2014. My next steet bike will probably be a T7 instead of a 790/890. Please ask KTM warranty why the head was superceeded with an updated design. If you have no traction and they still refise to help I would forward this video to them as kindly tell them to read the coments. Good luck, enjoy your trip!
I was going to buy the new 790 adventure and get a 390 adventure for the wife...I was nervous to do so. I will be going with a different brand, thanks to your informative video.
I feel very sorry for you. I know exactly your feelings as we have two ktm in house. My GF have 790 2019 also with failed cams. also on 25K kms. And I personaly have 890 2023, I am very scared to open the engine on 25K km, if I will have the same issue, we will trade both bikes and go with BMW. Exactly as you said: We dont want to have adventure bike, that cannot adventure. Top end rebuild every season is just sick and unacceptable...
This issue is so widely acknowledged right around the world. It needed to be treated as a recall to rectify the cams/head/oil pressure issues. You and every single owner of these lemons should have had either full warranty or near 100% Goodwill. Best of luck on your travels👍
Don't take that bike, sell it and get a Yamaha or Suzuki , the metal from the cams has passed around the engine for ages , the filters would not have stopped it all, grinding liquid.
@@Adv_Charlie You are very modest about your engineering competence. I have owned many, many bikes, do all the servicing I can and probably understand the mechanicals less than you do. But I think the fact of your having invested so much time and money in this non-viable machine is persuading you to throw good money after bad. When, not if, the bike breaks down again on the other side of the pond, how much support are you going to get from KTM there? KTM is not even playing fair with their own dealerships. Sod 'em.
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@@Adv_Charlieand do you trust this bike to do a long long trip?
The rest of the bike yes as I’ve been over it all. The engine and new parts? Honestly, I’m rolling the dice. Hopefully, the new head is better. 🤞🏻 hopefully the new cams have been manufactured better 🤞🏻 I just don't want anything to get in the way of my starting my trip. What happens on the trip will be part of the trip and I’m fully expecting challenges just hope it's not engine.
In Australia, consumer law says products sold must be fit for purpose and match the way they're advertised. Such laws supercede manuacturer claims and warranties. I believe there is similar in the UK. Wield and enforce the laws, that's your right as a citizen and has been factored into the product pricing.
Just parted company with my 2019 790 ... gone back to Japanese again. KTMs are awesome when they work properly, by far the most fun bike I've owned ... but more commonly appearing major issues like this bring a certain amount of anxiety to ownership too. My new bike is far far far less likely to destroy itself from the inside out and the peace of mind is considerably relieving.
well, Kawasaki does not any warranty in my country, I had a Versys 650 and the lambda probe failed around 8500km mark (5 months since buying), they refused the warranty because "the paint has chips and scratches due to usage"
Could you imagine what would happen to a car manufacturer if their engines were failing from a common issue like a camshaft failure? Well said Charlie, it's not like it's in the service schedule that the cams be replaced at 18K klms. Enjoy your epic trip to the States.
It happens quite regularly in the car industry- Jeep/ Dodge 392 Hemi’s have exactly the same issues- and also LS motors in GM products. This is more common than you may think
@@mopargrub4448 Outside of the USA, American manufacturing has a poor reputation for quality. Some non car/motorcycle examples are SRAM / ZIPP (can't even make bicycle wheels properly), Remington firearms (trigger safety fail - you would think an American company would be able to make firearms well, you know, for the "Freedom") and then there's Boeing... Chrysler was bought by Mercedes Group in 1998, and when the Germans realized they had purchased an absolute shit-show, they off-loaded it as soon as possible (2007). And I had to deal with General Motors products (Holden) first hand. Early LS1 oil pump failures, plastic plug in the oil gallery, single bolt holding the oil pickup in place. And can you say "Body Control Module"? America! Fuck Yeah!
Well done Charlie in clearly showing the damage done along with the appalling way the issue has been handled by KTM UK. A few points to consider:- • KTM UK is owned wholly by KTM Austria according to documents on Companies House. Therefore how KTM UK treats customers, is indicative of the way the parent company views the end user of the goods they produced. • Louise is employed to specifically ignore valid points raised by a customer, and not to respond to items that will create a liability issue. In simple terms her job role is to be obstructive whilst having no technical knowledge! • KTM Austria made profit on selling the parts to KTM UK. KTM UK made profit selling the parts to the authorised dealer network. Then the dealer gave a ‘goodwill gesture’ of 10% discount on these parts. The parts bill could have been reduced by 50%, and the whole supply chain would have still made profit. • Due to the fact many KTM franchised dealers will also be supplying CF Moto, you can only expect the delays to get worse from the whole network. • Louise made an assumption that doing an oil change is a skilled job that only ‘factory trained technicians’ can do. She clearly missed the fact the details are in the Owner’s Manual; Page 173 Service Schedule clearly states ‘change the engine oil and the oil filter, clean the oil screens’ Page 329. Doesn’t this indicate that KTM Austria expects customers to have periods when they will need to perform this service at times themselves? Therefore having the invoice for the required service parts really should be enough to earn better goodwill and for the ‘failed components’ should really have been provided at cost, as a worst case scenario. • There is a reason the cam followers have been left out of the box! I learnt within a few months of purchasing my 2022 890R, just how badly KTM UK are willing to treat customers. Hence when the 2024 890 Rally order book was opened last September, I was more than happy NOT to place a deposit on this or to purchase any other bikes from a brand I had previously considered desirable. Enjoy the trip once you and the bike get to Canada, it should be memorable for all the right reasons.
It is shameful that KTM does not honor these warranty claims. If there were a few isolated cases, I could understand. However, up to date, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of issues with the camshafts of their in-line engines. I really hope some official organization forces them to do a massive recall.
i would definitly seek some legal on this - manufacturers cannot make warranty conditional on dealer servicing, and as you have only ever had their own brand filters, etc, and the bike has been serviced within the required mileage and time, I think that despite the bike being out of warranty, it would be quite easy to prove that the bike was not fit for purpose. In addition, the fact that the parts concerned have now been modified means that KTM know there was/is a problem with the originals, and presumably have never advised owners, or instigated a recall, would certainly count against them should it ever get to court. I think a good solicitor would sort this matter - KTM would not want to risk it going to court, as it could start a tsunami of similar claims. Whatever you do - good luck with it.
Completely agree with this. I read through the fine print on my warranty (US) a while back and I do recall there was explicit language about allowing owners to perform their own maintenance so long as approved parts and procedures are followed. Could be different in the UK warranty, but you might want to give it a read to understand your rights. Either way, it's a total cop out on KTM's part...
I own two KTMs but I would never recommend anybody else buying one. I’m a decent mechanic and that’s what’s kept my bikes running over the years. I tear them down every winter in just to be able to sleep well during the riding season
Currently diving into a vavle adjustment on my 790R with only 5200 miles on it. Hopefully putting a high pressure spring in the oil pump will help the longevity. If you need any help on your trip near Madison Wisconsin let me know!
Look at the asymmetry of wear. It’s clearly not related to shaft hardness because it would be worn symmetrically. This must have to do with rocket arm failure or, more likely, lubricación, especially toward the right cam exhaust lobes
Recently joined that FB group you mention. That's discolouration on the cam lobes is definitely a lubrication issue! I've seen this heaps in high performance petrol engines that don't modify the oil pump to keep up. Even some of the other cam lobes seem to be starting to change color too?
I had a KTM 990 Adventure that I bought brand new. From day one I had the following issues: 1. Clutch that would not disengage fully. Had to hold the front brakes to stop the bike walking. KTM's response: Nothing wrong with the bike. 2. Water pump impeller detached and bike over heated. KTM's response: We have never seen this happen before. Check on the forums, this was a problem on KTM 990s. 3. From new this bike had a vibration on the motor that was so bad, it makes your ass numb when riding long distances. 4. The bikes fuel injection was snatchy from new. When revving the bike to 3k rpm and holding it at those rpms without moving the throttle, the rpms vary and hunt wildly. KTM's response: This is how these bikes are. I will never buy a KTM again. Biggest POS I ever owned. You want a reliable bike go Japanese.
I test rode a KTM 690 Enduro last year, I loved it, an absolute blast to ride and I knew it would be very capable off road. But I had some doubts in my mind about the reliability and also KTM dealers are not exactly thick on the ground in some parts if the world, meaning I would have to service the bike myself. I also imagined being on a trip and having to send the bike thousands of kms to a dealer for repair (in or out of warranty) while incurring massive out of pocket expenses. So I bought a ... Kawasaki KLR650. Certainly not as fast or smooth as a 690, but I honestly think my mental health is better for it. It's called "peace of mind", and I want my mind to be at peace. That is priceless to me. I have been servicing the KLR myself and I have no concerns. BTW the KLR cost exactly HALF what the 690 was going to cost with the Power Parts I wanted. Power Parts are a massive rip-off in my IMHO, but you know, you are spending that much money, you want to keep it genuine...for the warranty lol. KTM's motto is "Ready to Race". The motto for the KLR650 should be "It will Get You There".
Nonsense! You make this comment under a video which is clearly related to subpar metallurgy and perhaps other issues (like oil starvation at that end of the camshaft) and bring a paradigm of the 990 LC8 with many many high mileage bikes out there. Apples and oranges! Your problems were inappropriate hydraulic clutch bleeding or Magura component failure either at the master or slave cylinder (both easily and inexpensively fixed). Most bikes in the market have such components failing all the time. The vibration is either tire-related or bad TB balance (that can be easily fixed at no cost). The "snatchy throttle" issue is 100% due to mapping that was trying to simulate the carburated (consumer) version of the 950 (not the Dakar rally bike fueling that needed very rich higher range for all day wide open throttle conditions). TuneECU and custom maps can adjust the fueling to any need out there. When you buy a bike that was designed and developed for the Dakar and you want to ride it like a moped, without a custom made fitment to your needs, you end up with an experience like yours!
@@C_R_O_M________ And you are willing to put up with all of those issues that "can be fixed" after paying good money for a brand new bike. Out of the Aprilia RSV Mille, Suzuki DRZ 400 SM, Yamaha R1, Yamaha YZ450F and notably the Honda CRF1100, not even one of those bikes had the kind of issues that the "mighty" KTM had. Most importantly the money I paid for the bike was not in any way defective. If you are happy to pay good money (and keep paying and paying and paying) for a hand grenade like the KTM and put up with all its "Nonsense", and it makes you happy, then good for you, but reliability is number 1 on my list of requirements. "Its okay that my bike packed up and I had to shell out huge amounts of money to fix it, it was due to subpar metallurgy" is the same as saying "My bike packed up because the manufacturer decided that plastic was a better material to make pistons out of, its okay though, I will pay for their mistake by buying another one of their possibly plastic pistons". Guess Japan snapped up all them talented metallurgists...In answer to your "high mileage 990 LC8" comment: You are absolutely right, their are PLENTLY of high mileage LC8s out there. But how much money did it take to get them there?
@@davidsussens4478 I have no appetite for confrontation on things I know to be true. The facts are: KTM was established as a brand (as close as to the) "ready to race" mentality and with the 950/990 they hit the nail on the head. You don't get a work horse with that bike but a race horse and as such you need to be keeping it at top form. That's a compromise I am willing to go for. It's an honest dealing between two parties: "I sell you this product but you should take notice that this is something you need to keep up with in terms of maintenance - pull the trigger and buy it but acknowledge what you are buying from me". The things you mentioned are known peripheral problems. Not essential issues to leave you from getting that race horse. Now, your riding style and needs could be different and you could be perfectly fine with a mule like the GS on which you can carry the kitchen sink and everything else to camping grounds but I doubt a lot more their honesty as related to the mission intended. The GS sucks as an adventure bike. I've owned two and both had HUGE problems. The first one consumed 1000ml oil per 1K Kms (from new) and the second one grenaded the engine with just 20K kms on the clock. Then after a complete engine rework the rear shaft final drive bearings gave up the ghost . I've has enough and traded it in for my first 990. What a difference! Yes, I agree, Japanese bikes are built differently, I still own one (a GTR 1400) and owned others, all excellent machines, but HOW my KTMs take me to places makes a substantial difference to me. I now own two KTMs a very low mileage 990 and a 2012 500EXC (which has been bulletproof in terms of reliability and boy have I ridden that girl hard and bounced her up and down rocks on all possible axis!). Bought the 990 a few months ago after selling my previous one (a few years back) with 110K kms (from new). I know what I'm getting for the 7.5K Euros I paid and the extra 2K for upgrades in suspension, lights, seat, ergos, tires, mask, etc. It's a bike I know and know well. They won't make these bikes available to public again. These were Arabian stallions and here we are comparing apples to oranges. If you can live with an Arabian stallion in the barn you need to know that this horse is needy and perky. It will not refuse to draw a carriage once in a while but it will occasionally buck you off the saddle if you use it inappropriately. So it comes up to "Know what are you getting for your money" and this is the point where I agree with you 100%. But be sure to know! P.S. Contemporary KTM bikes (especially of the non-EXC enduro/MX niche - hence the latter's exorbitant pricing!) are plagued from the outsourcing of production to emerging markets from Asia mainly because domestic production in Austria (like all around EU) has been impacted by the inflated statist costs - the European States have become a cancerous growth to carry around and companies try to lower costs to survive. That's going to be having an impact on quality. Once again, know what you are paying for (and that's why I won't pay a premium for things I won't use - like all the electronic nonsense and production out of Asian countries and their subpar quality control). In other words: two people can buy the same brand and one will qualify as a sucker while the other not. Value for money and knowledge is the key for a good consumer experience (and respective "signals" to producers/corporations). As consumers we shouldn't be assumed (to be) passive recipients of marketing and its traps. Just as Democracy isn't to be left on auto pilot, markets are a democratic place where you vote with your money (like you said) and your feet. "Know what you vote for" is my final, bottom line, message.
Great Vid, Sorry to see KTM didn't warrant this world wide problem for you. Here in Australia they are warranting this problem outside of warranty period for a lot of cases. I own a 2020 KTM 790 Adv R. I have a theory on the Cam problem. The valve shim clearances seem to close very quickly. I checked my valve shim clearances at 10,000 kilometres/6Mi , some of them were in mid spec tolerance . (They had already started to close from the factory specification of: Inlet 0.15/ Exhaust 0.20) I re checked the shims at 16K/9Mi , I had to adjust 4 shims. I re checked shims at 24K/14Mi , I had to adjust another 2 shims. If the valve shim clearances get to zero, the followers will run constantly on the cams, The cam lobes and followers get too hot and then you have this issue. If I had not checked my valve shim clearances until 24K/15Mi I believe I would have a got to zero valve shim clearance with some of the valves and have the same problem. IMO the valve clearance's should be checked at 15k/9Mi and again at 25k/15Mi. (But its a costly job if you have to pay someone to do it for you) I did this myself. I Have the identical Air filtration set up as you. I only ride off road. (Lots of dirt) I change my oil every 7,000 Kilometres Air filter cleaned after every ride. My Cams are fine. I have not had a problem with them so far. I will re-check my clearance's at 40K/24Mi. 🙂🛠
Good theory, mate. So, what is the reason the valve clearance get tighter ? Is it the valve seat ? I had that on a couple of bikes. On one it burned a exhaust valve as a result. I would like to see the exhaust valve on the bike mentioned in the video.
I think you might be spot on! And I’ll be sure to check after say 10k miles I have the manual and I’m not worried about doing the work of checking. It was changing the cams and knowing what bad wear looked like as I don't have the experience to know if something is on its way out. A part from the obvious state of my shit show for a cam lobes.
@@TetraX-ui7xl I have heard of valve seat regression. soft valve seats, My bike definitely does not like 91Ron fuel. I can hear detonation off the bottom rev range if I have 91 in the tank, that would cause valve wear (and possibly more damage). If I put 95 or 98 the engine runs fine. (No detonation) I first thought it was the cam chain tensioner, but I changed it for a dirt tricks tensioner. I always use 95/98 fuel, but it wasn't available on my last ride and I had to put 91 in it. The detonation noise instantly came back. Its defiantly not dust, I am so fussy with my Airlifters. I have dusted an engine. I have paid for that privilege. That wont happen again! So there's a few speculative theory's? But I guess we will probably never know.
I enjoyed what you had to say and how you said it. I guessed 3000-3500£ before you said the cost of the fix. Enjoy your ride and stay safe and more importantly,stay warm. From NZ
For all those keen eyed people thank you for your comments about my air filter. I did also notice at 8:40 Edit: I have spoken to my dealer the head was changed to to wear making the new cams no longer fit properly. My oil pressure was also checked and is within spec which is good news. They agree KTM have their head in the sand on this issue and that had another bike with the issue come In today 22/04/24
I owned a 2020 790R that had worn cams that were discovered by my local KTM service center at the 30000 km service. Both cams and followers were replaced under warranty. Up to that point the bike had been flawless. I now have an 2023 890R with 14000 km and no issues.
@@Adv_Charlie Don't sweat it, if you lose top end power (which I assume you'd have noticed already) Then it's being choked. Other words don't fix what ain't broke. I have a brand new Norden Expedition 901(2024) & you've got me suddenly concerned regards premature Cam Wear. I had to change my 1st oil, filter & O-rings myself because riding 250mi to the closest dealer would've put me over the limit (compromising the warranty) I used MotorX 10/50 & the proper kit & your video tells me that KTM/Husqvarna might try a finagle job in the future ? This will become an international incident if they pull the same crap on me. The price I paid I could've bought 2 Yamaha's. What happened to German precision ?
My 690 Enduro (2016) shit the bed when the roller seized on my intake rocker at 19,000 km. The needle bearings had self-destructed, causing the roller to seize, and shims to be ejected, but the cam lobe was almost unscathed. I've recently been debating a new Ducati 698 or 690 SMC R. My 690 experience had me leaning towards Ducati and the desmo head. I recently began second guessing myself, after learning that newer 690s are using finger followers. Thanks to you, I can now I can eliminate KTM from consideration, after learning that they can't do finger followers and have switched to Chinesium camshafts. Sorry to hear KTM is falling apart, and sorry to hear of your woes, but thanks for sharing! The fact that they've redesigned the head suggests the old one was defective. They should step up and compensate you for this repair. I've started to wonder if CFmoto is subverting the manufacturing line on KTM production, to drive customers towards their cheaper offerings ... greed karma?
I got my 2020 KTM 790 Adventure to a dealer in Germany to verify the shafts because of some reports in this regard, though not enough to trigger an official recall action. I bought the bike in 2023 from the first owner with around 20000 KM. The bill was covered by the extended warranty which had nothing to do with the manufacturer warranty, around 1600 Euros, but the engine still has a rattling noise when cold. The same sound as before the repair, which makes me doubt very much that the engine received a bunch of new parts and adjustments, as invoiced: new shafts, new valves + adjustment, new chain. The only way to check if the parts on the invoice really ended up installed in my bike is only by opening it. I guess I'm in for a surprise. Austrians are very sneaky and cunning people which can't be trusted but nowadays, you can't trust their products either 😄. But wait, KTM decided to move the manufacturing of bigger bikes (all models above 390cc) to CN, which means it's NOT made in Austria any more.
Choosing my first adventure bike..The 2024 KTM adventure 790 was at the top.. Second being the 24 Honda TransAlp. This changed everything. The warranty through KTM is pathetic! I’m out because of the warranty… KTM lost another customer.. This video cost them more than they’ll know.
I believe they fixed the issue in 2021 however there is no proof. I think everyone has lost trust in the bikes over this and I agree they will be feeling the loss of sales. Some third-party dealerships are refusing them as a part ex as they don't want to have the issue
Greetings from Texas. Thanks for posting this video. I also have a 2019 790 Adventure. Right at 15k miles. I haven’t noticed any symptoms of a problem but am now curious to know what my cams look like. Hope your bike is good now! Have a great trip!
That's not because of the metal quality of the cam shaft, it's lubrication issues. As I understood some of the oil paths got randomly clogged up and some parts of the shaft stop getting enough lubrication. I hope that they somehow cleaned the oil paths when they did the shaft replacement, otherwise it will likely happen again.
Ready to Race but be ready to swap out parts. I hope they got better hardened camshafts or maybe have some kind of after market roller rocker design head which would allow for that type of high lift cam lobes they have for the awesome performance these engines produce.
I bought the 1290 SAS with radar in 2021 November. Traded it in in June 2022 after multiple issues. Death wobble at around 118mph, adaptive cruise control trying to ram me into the vehicle ahead, moisture inside the switches, refusing to start at random even with a full battery. I thought I will cut my losses. Lost £9k. Will never buy KTM ever again. The bike had less than 3000 miles on it.
Lol, my dad have the same bike and did 30k kms without even single issue. Battery failure was fixed after ecu update. He never had any of problems You mentioned. Wobble was caused by shitty oem tires (almost every new bike had crap tires to let You get new ones). Actually new 1290 is really solid engine, not even comparable to 790/890 crap. Best of luck brother !
@@jerronimo6874 "almost every new bike had crap tires to let You get new ones" Absolute rubbish comment. I've been riding for almost 50 years, you have no idea how good normal motorcycle tyres are mate, stock tyres now are better than the high performance tyres I was using in the late 70's, up until the late 80's..... I've had well over 30 bikes....
@@MickH60 i don’t care how long are you riding. You just don’t know that new oem tires, on new bike are completely different than the same tires You buy anywhere. Oem are softer ones with different rubber mixture. They are cracking on sun faster, last shorter, have discoloration so they are yellow after few months. I had few new bikes and every one had shit new tries. Especially KTM 1290sas with Mitas crap which were causing shimmy at middle speed. Same shit with r1250gs which have Michelin tires which are completely used after 5-6kkm but when You get new from store they will do 20kkm easily.
Charlie you are very calm and collected. I would be totally mad! How can they not help you out with warranty given that this is a well known and documented engineering failure? Crazy. I would not go near any bike they make.
It it now well documented put at the time KTM where hiding it. I was calm for the sake of the video I also felt at the time there was nothing I could do and my focus was on getting ready for my trip. since making this video KTM have now refunded me the full amount. As I explain in my update video
In Africa and Asia, in 98% of cases, people ride Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki motorcycles. They service them with whatever tools they have, maintain them in their own garages, and ride them in all sorts of conditions, covering up to 200,000 kilometers. BMW, KTM, Aprilia, and Husqvarna are not popular because they constantly break down, and their services are so expensive that only someone with money to spare buys them.
If a KTM mechanic had done the last service they may have noticed swarf in the screens and filter that must have been there as well as glitter in the oil itself and also because of their familiarity with the normal engine noise, the additional clatter or ticking that your motor must have had by then. The gradual change in engine noise overtime might have been unnoticeable to yourself. That being said, I fully understand why you would do your own servicing out of the warranty period. The new head design suggests an upgrade to deal with a known problem (why else would it be done) which is probably an oil feed upgrade to the cam journals and lobes. As others have said, a lot of metal swarf has passed though that engine. I'd try and speak to the tech that did the work or at least the service manager to try and establish which other parts may have been affected, ie the oil pump etc Seems to be a design flaw if there are so many similar issues with similar bikes. Might be worth pursuing with KTM why a head upgrade has been necessary for that model. Might give you more evidence to support your claim. Don't give up.
Hi Charlie, first - I find reading the correspondance that the KTM UK response to be disgusting - sorry for you. I have a 2019 also with ALL the top end done (excluding new head). I could be wrong (noticed you added a correcting comment to the video) - but doesn't the wire grate/mesh on the airfilter element go on the inside of the airbox (to stop the foam from being sucked in). I am pretty sure as I installed mine incorrectly at 5000km and ran for around 1 week of dusty, group riding and fully dusted my motor - the foam sucked in half way and I had no filtration. The bike ran until 36000km then I had to get new valves, piston and rings - it would not cold start (repair at great cost to myself in early). BUT my cams were good at this time. The after a long AU to UK overland trip in 2023 (bike then had 71000km), I got my valve clearances checked and asked for cam photos. Valves OK (small adjustment needed) - but needed new cams (only early stage wear) and followers which KTM Australia covered under goodwill warranty. Like you - I love the bike. Also wondering what the improvements are on the new head ...
Spot on about the air filter mesh. I don't think that had been that way for long as I clean and re-oil that regularly. It's been cleaned again and put back the correct way between filming and releasing this video. 👍🏻 Nice to hear you did a big trip on it and now have some decent number of k’s on it. So did you have 1 or 2 sets of new cams?
Worked at a KTM dealership in sweden, and i was tasked to prepare a brand new 2023 KTM 690 smc-r and after checking everything per KTM routine i started it for the first time ever... And it rattled like it didn't have any oil pressure at all, but the light went out, after some fault finding it turned out it didn't have any oil going to the cams. So even brand new bikes aren't safe. We never could figure out why it didn't get oil to the cams. Had to send it back to KTM. Have many strange stories about KTM's failing.
A loyal KTM owner of a dozen bike history. Still have 4 in the garage. I traded my 2020 790R in at 3900miles due to KTMs poor customer service response and didnt like the idea of riding a time bomb. No more KTMs , GG, Husqvana , for me.
Wow, that's crap. In the USA a company can't deny warranty coverage because you didn't do all the service work through them. This kind of kills any desire I might have to own a 790/890 Adv, I'll just stick with my 690. If you find yourself in Colorado and need help, I'm in Denver. Look me up.
Wonder where the cams were made? I have a 2023 890, opted for an extended dealer warranty because KTM. KTM also gave me a 2 year warranty on it. Mine was built in Austria. I think the 790's were built in china. Definitely seems like an oil pump issue, and maybe soft cams. I haven't really had any serious issues with mine but it only has 3000 miles so far.
Utter shit that KTM didn't cover this. Just shows that they dont stand by their product or their customers. i think this negligence is going to hurt them hard, and rightfully so. Thanks for making this video though. with currently 63000 views and over 1100 comments KTM have to be aware that the masses are starting to learn about this saga, which i hope forces them to pull their head out of their a$$ and correct the problem both for people who have previously had the problem as well as preventing it for everyone else.
That looks like a lubrication problem to me. I mean why would one set of intake lobes wear to buggery but the other lobes on the same cam look fine? I suspect the worn set had no lube on them. I really like the look of the KTMs but the amount of horror stories about failures and the repair time means I'll never buy one. Seen the KTM response...at least Dick Turpin wore a mask. *Edit* Best of British luck for your trip, hope you have a great time..
100% agree I've seen this sort of thing a few times in engine with lubrication or oil pressure issues. I'm sure it could have been picked up too if an oil analysis was being done too!
It’s a shame they don’t fix the oil flow issues/camshaft and the clutch plate issues. If these two issues were prioritised then the bike would be reliable. Then there would be no questioning which bike to buy when choosing an adventure bike. Because without a doubt these bikes are far superior to ride over their counterparts ie: T7,Africa twin, DR, etc adventure bikes. You changed the oil and oil filters, there is no reason the cam failed because you serviced it yourself. This is an issue they really need to address. 🤞
I’m not downplaying what’s going on here, but if there were no cam or clutch issues, I guarantee that there would be some other issue(s) that people would say the same exact thing about. I’m happy this issue is getting more press so it drives down the cost of the 890 Adv R I need to replace. I crash and total motorcycles before they ever have a chance to have mechanical failures. 2023 890 Adv R best bike zine ever ridden. I had 8K miles on it trouble free before a car pulled out in front me when I was going 60 mph. The bike died and I need to replace it, lol
Sorry for your problems Charlie but glad you made this film, I was intending buying a 790 Adventure this year and now I’m looking elsewhere due to the poor materials Ktm are using but also of the shitty way they have dealt with this, they could if they’d tried met you at least some of the way and had a positive outcome but now I don’t think I’d ever buy a KTM. Good luck for your trip hope you enjoy it.
Knew this was going to happen, as soon as they started making bikes out of Austria. I made the dealer show me proof that my super duke GT was totally made in Austria. They looked at me as if I was nuts. Ive worked around the world. Glad you like the bike fella, as no ones going to touch a second hand 790 now. Enjoy you're trip mate. On the last night of the trip, park it somewhere like Detroit with good American insurance is my advice. save shipping it home and replacing the head again!!
"Knew this was going to happen, as soon as they started making bikes out of Austria." Is a bullshit conclusion. 950's Had cam problems, among a whole lot of other quality issues. "I made the dealer show me proof that my super duke GT was totally made in Austria." Ofcourse they're looking at you like you're an idiot. Parts are made all over the world and even shared among brands. My pressure plate is made in Italy and my fuelpump is a Mitsubishi. A KTM with the same fuel pump as a Honda, go figure.
looking at both camshafts, there's a certain amount of wear on all the lobes, which is to be expected, but if it was a hardening or metallurgy issue, you wouldn't expect to see catastophic lobe wear on only two. Most 'wear' takes place in the first few minutes of initial running, until the whole assembly (followers, shafts and shims) are properly work hardened. Oil starvation at that point could create sufficient heat to flatten a lobe and follower, but then you'd also expect to see scoring/bluing on the associated journals and shells. Without being familiar with KTM's valvetrain and head design it's only a semi-educated guess, but for two lobes to be so trashed, relative to all the others, with no discernable journal wear, I'd suggest there is a mechanical (interference) reason for those two followers to be driven into the lobe and not 'return' properly, probably due to localized oil starvation. I once owned a DR650 that suffered a major heat seizure (nearside main bearing). The bike had been routinely serviced, ridden sensibly and had only covered around 5K. Turns out, after a full strip down and forensic inspection, there was a 2 inch long piece of swarf that had been lodged in one of the oil delivey tubes that hadn't been washed out at the factory....the bearing was starved of oil from the get go, and it was oly a matter of time before it failed. I feel your pain! KTM only have themselves to blame if prospectiv buyers lose faith in their reliability. Shit happens, stuff breaks for all sorts of reasons, but catastrophic cam failure on a 16K bike with a good service history by a conscientious owner is not acceptable...under the circumstances this should have been undertaken as a goodwil repair, or at the very least, KTM should cover the cost of the new components....I've never considered buying KTM motorcycles for this very reason, even though they are capable of designing excellent machinery.
I got an identical response for a valve cover leak on mine, because I did the 2nd year service myself (6 months out of warranty), and I doubt they would've covered it anyway. I tried becasue the valve cover gasket has an upgraded part which indicates that the original one was defective. They don't care. I just have to hope that at 18k when they open they don't find cams like yours.. a lot of people here are hardcore KTM fans (including me, like you I love the bike), but they need to be held accountable, these should be all covered by them as manufacturing defects
That sucks, KTM did my cams and followers in 2023 under warranty on my 2019 790 at 26,000km. I had serviced mine myself often, I did do all of the KTM services though and they stumped up and actually did it twice so I could go on a trip. The first time was because they could not get the superseded parts in time for my trip so they replaced them again after I got back
@@peterlv no I have the Rottweiler full intake with funnelweb filters. I have run that for most of the bikes life and never had dust ingress into the air intake. KTM were not interested in that or any or modification as I run all of the stock sensors
@@GeoffBarnard I am asking this only because I have heard time and time again that most people with cam issues have modified air intake, and this is what I have heard from dealers. Stock bikes allegedly tend to have less of these issues. It certainly would be interesting to get actual real world data, but it's an observation I have heard more than once or twice.
@@peterlv Mine has never had dust through it even on the stock air filter which has way less filtration than my setup, I use a full soak filter oil not spray on. KTM confirmed it was hardening, I also think they have an oil distribution issue and given they now have a superseded head number I am guessing they know this too. Dust through the airbox makes no sense anyway as you would have damage other places long before it affected the cams and followers, plus they would all be affected evenly.
@@GeoffBarnard I am not trying to argue with you, I am just telling what I have heard more than once and would love to see actual numbers if any dealer owner would run them on how many stock intake bikes vs how many modified bikes are having this issue.
Not only the unifilter cage is backwards but the 2 layers are too...the grill of the cage must be facing the inside of the airbox to avoid the layers getting suck in. Yellow layer must be facing out
Were oil pumps replaced/inspected? With this amount of material circulating in oil, they had to suffer. If you changed the whole head, and the oil pressure will be low, you might say farewell to the new head very soon!
My KTM Camshaft Story Update! - Is it fixed?
After 13,300 miles on the new parts
th-cam.com/video/TSt1tIjo98c/w-d-xo.html
With 47,000 views in 2 weeks this cost KTM a lot more than £2600!!
Yeah and reading the comments they have lost a lot of sales. Wasn't really my plan, I just wanted to show others my experience. They have done it to themselves.
True!
Not only bike sales, I’ve changed plans from buying panniers, screen etc for touring on my 890. Am looking at buying another bike more suitable…not a KTM. Am keeping it in the hope there is a permanent fix later on
Yep, no chance I'll be buying a KTM based on their customer service.... Almost pulled the trigger on a 690 SMC
Especially when they are getting the parts made cheaply , which is the problem in the first place .. saving money on cheap top end parts & design is crazy , pressed on cam lobes with a crush fit .. really ? instead of manufacturing out of solid billet when you’ve already got a ready made customer base willing to pay the expense is nuts.
Camshaft lubrication is an optional extra that automatically gets cut off if you don't buy the cam pack.
😂
🤣🤣🤣
Spot on mate - I really don't like the 'demo' mode, only to be disabled if you don't pay more 😮
@@nickrider5220 I would be less upset if paying for actual hardware but software only? Nah, get fkd.
‘Demo lubrication mode’ 😂
I work at a KTM dealership in Canada, we have seen this so many times. Latest one is a 22 901 Noreen, cams and followers were destroyed . Bike has 22 thousand mms on it. KTM was good enough to cover parts but not labour. KTM has lost its way, as good as the suspension and motor power is, I would buy Japanese over it every time. And don't even get me started on electrical problems.
You might wanna post that to the ktm forums, lots of delusional people over there claiming that these are all individual problems and the massive qc issues are exxagerated ^^
KTM=Kathe Triti Mastora=Every Tuesday Mechanic.
@@Sweetw4ter
It seems the Chinese bikes are either sourcing poor quality parts (almost nobody machines their own engine internals) or are very poorly designed.
There's plenty of old 640 LC4s still going strong (parts can now be a serious issue) and plenty of high mileage LC8 V-Twins.
I've had a couple of electrical niggles with my RC8R over the 10 years I've had it, but it's never burned any oil (never need to top it up) and the filter and screens don't show any signs of swarf.
The dealership has a poor reputation for their attitude amongst local independent mechanics, and I've noticed their attitude change over the years too.
I had a 2020 1290was from new.Loved the bike but had two major electrical failures whilst on tours would never buy another KTM
hey did you new some bad fings about 390 adventure?i have it about 1month and did 2000km for now,nofing to suspiceus,but in cold days my speedometer have water smog in corners,ktm sad it not for waranty until its posible to see it,wtf
This video is the perfect example of why I choose to sell my KTM sooner than later. I'm blown away how many stories just like your Charlie are out there without KTM doing anything about it. Thank you for this
I did wonder why you didn't have it for that long
KTM UK are appalling! My 690 engine failed at 1700 miles. Warranty voided and KTM UK were the worst company I’ve had to deal with trying to resolve it. Then at 3650 miles I discovered my cam had excessive wear.
Do not buy a poor quality unreliable bike from this tin pot company!
My 690 had the same at 2350miles and my friends 690 at 2600 miles. KTM not interested. Terrible company.
@@PastyDakar bro had the 701 husqvarna same shit. My valve dropped into my piston and everything went boom on the highway. My yearly trip and plans destroyed. Im done with this shit ktm and marketing bull. KTM - Know the mechanic
I thought the 690 was reasonably sound, what on earth did they say was the reason for voiding warranty after only 1700 miles? I'd see them in court for that one.
Damn that sucks, thought the 690s were pretty reliable
@BikingChap yeah he's kept quiet about why it was void, although could just be a can or something, if it's a remap then they definitely will void it
I will be sticking to my Japanese bike’s thank you 😊
I would get rid of it asap, all that metal will be all in the engine. Big ends small ends will all have had metal pushed through them. I would take them to small claims court as it’s unreasonable to expect to have to change the cams ever few thousand miles
100% agree. I'd definitely sue. Almost certainly win because KTM won't show up for the hearing anyway.
thats exactly what I thought, all that metal is grinding away the rest of the engine now, bummer
I have watched a few videos on this issue. My understanding is that all KTMs with these issues are now worthless. Who would want this headache? Even if the issue has been repaired/replaced who is to know if the same issues won't reappear in another 25000 kms or less. This leaves the owner, not KTM, out of pocket for now. KTM will suffer in the long term.
I bought a used (6-year old but low kms) BMW K1200s many years ago from a Motoraad Dealer. Within a few days I had two breakdowns which the dealer sorted out very quickly. The collected the bike from my home and loaned me a GS while the repairs were done. A while later, there was a recall on the brake master cylinder. I made an appointment and rode to the dealer, had coffee and snacks while they fixed it. I would have no compunction about buying a BMW, new or used. Great service and a beautiful ride.
This is the sort of video that is more helpful than influencers/vloggers banging on about how wonderful a new bike is. If you have legal help by your insurance company have a chat with your solicitor to look at the Consumer Protection act 2015. This act outlines that some parts of items bought by consumers automatically have six years warranty defined as the "lifetime of the product". So the consumer has the right to expect some components that are "non serviceable" to last the lifetime of the vehicle. So the camshafts have failed due to poor quality materials, rather than failing to change oil. Cam shafts are not new technology, so every motorist has the right to expect that component to last if the service/oil has been changed. That is not wear from the last dealer service to when you changed the oil, if the valves were checked correctly that wear would have been noticed and you should have been advised by their technician. Then ask KTM to resolve, if they refuse go to a small claims court.
In the manual the value check is not until 18,000 miles so I or KTM didn't check them.
@@Adv_Charlie You have a very good claim. Let KTM show it's NOT poor quality materials at a small claims court. I think the UK has weaker consumer laws than other countries. All the best have a good trip.
A warranty does not supersede CPA, it's in addition to. Go see a brief who understands CPA.
The top comment is basically what I was going to say. You really have a strong case against KTM regarding the premature cam wear. Also KTM are fully aware of this issue but not willing to recall the bikes/quads to resolve this issue. It appears to me that during the manufacturing process, the cam lobes are not getting heat treated correctly and not deep enough while other lobes are just fine. I've done 2 of these engines and I can tell you that the surface hardening is Not deep enough as I checked all the none damaged lobes and on the surface they did seem to be heat treated correctly but after lightly scratching them with a tungsten scribe the metal below the surface was soft as mild steel.
Also your fully within your own rights to service your bike yourself regarding oil, air and plugs. Take them to a small claims court along with all the evidence that you have found regarding this issue and you will win or KTM will settle out of court to make the problem go away.
I wouldn't own another if it was given for free.
Best of luck mate moving this forward if you do pursue it under the consumer act/trading standards as its clearly not fit for its intended use and have a great trip through the US and Canada.
2 acts fitness for purpose. Bike is not fit for purpose. Merchantable quality. Bike certainly isn't merchantable quality. It's not just the money you have paid. It's the loss of use, the inconvenience and probably the same thing is going to happen again.
Go to court for a full refund minus depreciation + legal costs + what you have paid out in bills.
Friend's 2020 790 fall apart 2x last year. At 10K km, water in oil, hydrolocked. 2K km later, oil pump failure, was in pieces again. Both required full rebuild down to the crankshaft, engine case etc. Warranty claim, but the bike was in the shop for 10 months total. Parts were not available... Ridiculous.
The discoloration (bluing) is caused by heat, the fact it’s on just the one end of the camshaft with all the damage is indicative of a lack of oil. I’m just guessing, but this may be why the head had to be replaced to solve a known oil starvation issue at that end of the camshafts.
Not sure. Look at 5:56, no bluing there, just weared silver metal.
Don't be fooled by the static photos in the video, because the colors are less "yellowish" so every color appears blue.
I repeat: put the video at max resolution and zoom a little. I'm a CNC machinist and I see no high temperature damage at all.
My suspect: they simply used a lot of not hardened camshafts on the assembly line of the factory.
Human error? Costs saving? I don't know...
@@giuliobuccini208 The idea that one part of the camshaft is weaker than the other seems highly unlikely tho. If it's material weakness, we would see at least damages to the other camshaft lobes, but there isn't. It's more likely damages from unlubricated components.
@@DarkExternalHeartlobes are not hardened all at same time but one by one so it could be last lobe was cooled bellow hardening temperature before dip...
i kind agree with oil starvation
either oil circulation too small so easily stuck (thats why newer head used new filter)
or the oil pump not consistent
I had the exact same problem with my 2019 KTM 790R! I am pretty sure the problem is due to a clogged oil nozzle that lubricates each cam lobe. Very glad to see you make this video and I agree with much that you've said. My case ended up even more extreme than yours. It took me nearly a year to get the bike operational again and I ended up having to replace my entire engine. Fortunately I was able to find a used 2020 Duke engine for $2k. My story is a very long one, but it all began with the routine 18k first valve check where, like you, I discovered the worn cam lobe. Like you, I still love the bike. I just got back from a 6k ride from Seattle to Baja Sur and back over the winter season. Bike is running like a top, but I will worry about this problem repeating. It takes a piece of piano wire similar in thickness to a human hair to unplug the cam lobe oil jets, for which their are 8 (one for each cam lobe). Any fine piece of metal or dirt can clog these. I sometime wonder if a fleck of metal from say quick shifting doesn't get picked up by the oil filter magnets and clogs the oil jet. I also, believe you and I had he exact same intake manifold lobe wear. I suspect this is at the end of the oil lube pathway and so this cam lobe area may receive the least amount of oil pressure. Just a theory. I could be wrong, but surely KTM knows what's going on.
What's very interesting that you have the same story, do you still have the bike? How many miles on the new cams?
@@Adv_Charlie I do still have the same 2019 790R BUT it now has a new 2020 Duke 790 motor. The bike has 33,100 miles. Not entirely sure how many miles the used Duke motor from Edmonton, AL now has but guessing maybe 12k when I got it and now another 7k, so 19k. I did a valve adjustment 6 months ago. As noted, very long story.... When I discovered the damaged intake camshaft on the original motor, KTM said it would take at least 4 months to receive a new camshaft...i.e it was backordered... Well, I had trips planned and was impatient. I should also note that I did the valve check and all of this work myself using the official KTM shop manual. Sooo... As you noted, the bike was running fine even with the cam wear....So I replaced the damaged cam valve follower... cleaned out the plugged oil jet and reassembled with the worn intake camshaft thinking I'd go back in after the summer riding season when the new intake camshaft arrived. For the first 500 miles all seemed OK... but then going up a mountain pass at 80mph the bike died, imploded...timing chain skipped causing bent exhaust valve and broken valve guide. In theory, the valve guide should be replaceable, but after a month with a KTM dealership and another month with another shop I concluded that a new cylinder head was needed. That took 4 months. At this point I turned the project over to a local mechanic. When he finally got it running again...using a manual chain tensioner...it ran fine but the oil pressure light would come on above 3k rpm. After taking the bike to another KTM dealer I decided to sell the engine on eBay (noting its history, parts, and oil pressure issue). I then drove from Seattle to Edmonton to purchase the used Duke motor...put this in and all has been well since. Well, except for another cam chain tensioner scare. It is critical that this be set exactly as KTM calls for. More than you want to know I'm sure. But, bottom line... I still think if the cam lobe oil jet gets plugged this problem will re occur. I still love the bike. I'm 155lbs 5-11...have owned an Africa Twin, ridden T700s... ain't now way I'm going back to anything heavier...
I think you are correct, old Japanese bikes had camshaft bearing problems due to blocked oilways (usually caused by gasket sealer) but never camlobe failure as they ran in an oil bath !
These warranty issues with KTM and BMW definitely makes me uneasy buying either brand.
Triumph isn't any better. My 800XC was the worst purchase I ever made. Bad bike, bad dealer, bad manufacturer support.
don't buy Bmw, Ktm, Triumph or anything Chinese or Indian.
Japs make the nest bikes.
@@JayBee-cr8jmKTM seem to have systemic issues though, not one offs. Plus Electrical issues.
Make me uneasy to will definitely not recommend KTM & BMW motorcycles for sure JAP bikes my future
Japanese motorcycles anyway over any of the other manufacturers!
Im a Lifelong KTM Hater, but Im sorry to see a nice fella like u go thru this with your bike.
hater or realist , big difference
@@motozz8258 well my KLR's and KLX's never missed a trip, lol.
“Lifelong KTM hater “ 😂
Not very good at life are you ?
@@maxflight777 that was pathetic. Even more so trying to sound arrogant on a motorcycle brand that has catastrophic engine failures brand new...on the damn video of it happening even.
My nearest KTM dealer in Billings Montana has a new 2024 790 Adventure for sale in black. I’m really tempted to buy it, however watching videos like yours reminds me that KTM doesn’t stand behind its products and customers, and they won’t correct an engineering problem that they know exists. Good luck on your trip. There are plenty of KTM dealers in the US.😎
I can’t believe KTM havnet sorted this. Its been a known issue for well over two years. They’re loosing so much trust in their brand and so many of their best customers over this Stupidity.
People wil buy it anyway
@@majklknight7455
That's the real issue
@@majklknight7455 Yea because 99% of the bikes are not affected...
Not sure what you mean, it's a 2019 bike, the first of it's kind, if any bike will be affected, it's this.
The off-road fan boys are keeping the brand alive. A majority of rave reviews come from pro-vloggers who are shills. If you recall from the OG Long way round. Charlie and Ewan wanted KTM’s and KTM said no. It was obvious that KTM knew their garbage would leave them stranded.
Every time I get slightly seduced by the potential excitement of owning a KTM, I come across a similar experience of KTM ownership like yours on TH-cam.
KTM warranty should have helped you out. They didn’t. That e-mail from KTM basically says we won't do a good will warranty because you changed the oil (out of warranty).
Good luck with the trip but this video should serve as a warning to potential new buyers.
Thanks for the upload
Yeah!, I'm just about to lay down $23K for a new 2024 890 Adv r, now I think I better re-evaluate other options as this is just too much! KTM should stand behind this problem world wide, and should have a recall on all their engines affected...so sorry to learn of all the KTM owners problems, on an adv bike it is NOT ACCEPTABLE. If I were caught out with this issue on my trip in the Alti Plano I would be dead, or in the depths of British Columbias wilderness I'd be beast fiddles! Outrageous. Thanks so much for sharing....back to super reliable and excellent Honda I guess....
@@markjones3425 Buy a new Honda Africa Twin Adventure Sport, manual 6 speed like I did in 2018, twice the quality and 10 times the reliability and there are Dealers on every other street corner.
just worked on a 99 yzfr6 that's done 120k km, cam lobes were near perfect, KTM is just poorly made, you sir have been abnormally calm about this...
Because the wankers that I want to scream at are all hiding behind the dealer network.
I’m ktm through and through and have been for years. This ongoing issue and lack of customer service has put me off for life.
As well it should, this is absolutely shockingly bad 😮
KTM should cover this. So bad.
That will never happen. That means admitting fault.
Logic from a customer that did their own service will never prevail against corporate logic that formed their own legal liability laws. Like it or not, they have zero legal motivation to throw money at a customer's issue who's done their own service, however innocent and proper that service was. It's the unfortunate issue of KTM corporation deciding how to run their own business, preferring to define liabilities and stick to them. What they do about internal affairs like bad metallurgy, bad design, bad quality control, bad whatever... that's another issue, which falls under what KTM wishes to do with their market image, declassified information, whatever.
2600gbp dude wtf!!! How can u be so calm about it....
My whole fucking vstrom 1000 cost this much.
This isn't normal, KTM is getting away with this crap way too much.
Please make as much noise about it as possible people need to know
I’ve been dealing with this for 3 months and real anger has worn off a little and it’s falling on deaf ears at KTM.
The video is my way of helping to make noise of the issue
@charliecottie I’ve had similar trying to deal with KTM
They sound like a right cowboy outfit 🙄
@@Adv_Charlie When you get back from your trip you need to sue them. Providing your KTM doesn't break down again!!!
@@Adv_CharlieI understand your frustration. If I were you, I would have seriously considered talking to a lawyer./Small Claims court.
Got to 12mins and give up, my mind is made about KTM. Thankyou young man.
This video pushed me away from buying a KTM product this year and instead buying a new 2024 mt-09. I am sorry you are going through this and hope they do the right thing. One thing I learned over the years, squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am in outdoor power equipment business and if the dealer want's to fight for you they can get a mfg to make an exception.
You will not be disappointed with the MT 09. I have ridden several through their demo programs. Currently on a 2023 MT 10 and loving it. MT 09 would be my second choice or XSR 900. If you get the MT 09 you’re going to absolutely love the Performance and the quick shifter is flawless. The transmission and clutch are so good even if you’re not using the quick shifter. Just a great bike and you will have absolutely zero reliability issues.
I have been lucky so far with 18000 km on my 790 R 2020 with all service except the first one by me. Hearing some stories I feel a class action should be presented to KTM re these issues as I am sure some 790 / 890 engines that have had full KTM services "by the book" have still failed proving beyond reasonable doubt the issue is a KTM one. All said I absolutely love my bike :)
Great video mate and you are clearly the most reasonable guy on earth. I would have gone nuts over this. Absolutely unacceptable level of wear in a regularly maintained engine. This should have been covered by extended factory without question.
Some guy done 170,000 miles on a tenere 700......obvs not as high performance as a ktm, but you know..... thats a lot, lot more than 16000.....
I consider anything thats runs every time, as opposed to breaks, to be higher performance. I could overtake a broken ktm on my pushbike!
LOL FUCK that. Had the husqvarna 701 with 18000km and boom valve dropped on piston and boom went the engin and cracked engin cases. Done with this KTM - kick till monday brand
Super Tenere 1200 owner here, 190.000km, just service, timing chain at 120k. Still oem clutch pack
I did on t7 some 48k km no a single problem!
Wow, what a bag of shite, im out of the industry a long time now, but used to see R1,s and fireblades approaching 100,000kms that would check fine for valve clearances.
Shameful response by KTM. I have a 2019 1290 Super Adventure R and was looking at replacing it with a Norden 901 Expedition at the end of this year to scale down, but now I think I will pass on that. My 1290 have been very reliable thus far (44k km on the odo). I am also a person that does my own services and I know how to do that properly. There have been way too much cam wear issues on this 790/890 series of engines for them to just sweep this under the rug. I will share you video wherever I can to make the world for KTM very hot.
Indian/Chinese metallurgy vs Austrian! What do you expect at this point?
@@C_R_O_M________
Thing is that none of this is new technology.
What's more, the Chinese are able to do almost anything the west can these days.
The two main issues with Chinese built stuff is corruption and giving a fuck.
Much like the Russians, there are Chinese that would rather try to pocket the extra money if they think they can get away with substituting what the customer has asked for with something a touch cheaper.
In Asia the attitude towards business is sometimes less "A deal's a deal" and more "It's your fault for not watching what I was doing more closely".
However, I also suspect there is a problem with the corporate culture at KTM, given that they don't seem in the least bit interested in fixing problems.
@@C_R_O_M________ I think that's the issue. I saw on Freddie Dobbs' channel that a university professor in Australia had the same problem. Either he was a metallurgist, or he asked a colleague, to test the lobes. The conclusion was that they weren't for for purpose.
You explained this very clearly. I had an out of warranty claim for a cracked exhaust weld on a Honda 929RR. Honda sent out the zone rep and Honda covered it. The bike was clearly not abused and besides, how does a rider break a weld? It probably helped that it was at a very high volume Honda dealership. However, I think that the important difference is I bought from Honda and you bought from KTM.
I keep hearing that KTM has sorted out their reliability problems……..and then I see more videos like this and think KTM may not have 😂
The 2024 890’s still get delivered with the same faults the first 790 2019’s had. Loose swing arm bolts falling off, coolant leaks, etc etc. It’s basic quality control that is easy to fix at the factory but ignored.
Even the frame design, the old 1090’s, 1190’s where prone to breaking the frame where the headlight mounts as uses two tiny pins, weakest design of any motorcycle let alone an off-road motorcycle. Was such an issue third party manufacturers had products to re-enforce the frame mounts. Knowing all this KTM used the exact same design on the 7/890’s and frames where being written off due to snapping at the headlight mounts. I know a few people it’s happened to and had it myself.
KTM doesn’t seem to be doing iterative improvements. Instead they spend money developing demo mode that locks you out of functionality after after 1500km unless you pay to unlock the built in functionality
I know nothing about KTM's but last year while in Norway on our Goldwing I was talking to some Austrians while waiting at the port in Oslo and they had some very derogatory term for KTM reliability.
Fanboys claim it to feel better, but the truth cannot be hidden.
I neither claim to be a fan nor foe of KTM. I only wish to have the truth of the matter.
How many motorcycles in these classes from KTM are sold that don't have issues, as compared to the ones that do? No one seems to be able to answer that question. People would rather scream and holler about "fanboys' denial" and others would rather say it's not the federal case some have made it. Either statement is extreme and deflects attention away from the question about how many.
@@Sweetw4ter and ridden....
The amount of damage on the camshaft is unbelievable! This should never happens, even if you drive for thousands of miles without oil.
That is a clear manufacturing fault, IMO. No surface hardening was executed on that camshaft.
Good point ... the wear isn't evenly distributed across all lobes. Definitely poor manufacturing.
This is due to oil starvation. Still a manufacturing issue.
Well, in Austria they say KTM is for 'Keine Tausend Meter', which translates to 'not a thousand meters'. Yours did well.
Here they say "Keep The Money."
In Australia they say ‘keep taking money’
12k views in a matter of days. Hopefully this is now firmly on KTM’s radar as it doesn’t paint them in a good light and your video has video footage of the damage, level headed and paints a true picture about KTM warranty claims or lack of warranty on this issue for some customers despite the recent PR campaign they now have five year warranty
That new 5 yr warranty is only available to those getting every service interval done at the dealer for $129/hrs labor+ materials, shop fees..etc...might as well service it yourself...the 20 hrs of shop time is 3 grandby itself....I'd rather buy a replacement motor and bolt that in when needed
nice vid. From the KTM Camshaft group :)
Thank you
I am sorry to hear about your troubles and know how disappointing it is. I too had a "lemon" motorcycle years ago. Dealers response was always "they all do that". I went back to riding Japanese motorcycles and haven't had problems since. I hope this is the last of your problems with the KTM.
Take that damaged cam to a machine shop and have them do a Rockwell C test on it. Might be worth knowing the hardness just for curiosity sakes.
Yea, I was wondering the same
The shop will tell you its a soft lobe before wasting time checking.. doubt it was due to poor oiling as its mate in either direction wasn't rubbed out.. poor hardening gives same results.. a frustrating expirience..
@@rebekahfrench5747 I just watched a video where someone did the Rockwell test. And it was in spec. The issue comes down to the "in spec" is not good enough or a lack of lubrication. The latter can have many reasons. Too much oil, too little oil, clogging, wrong oil, bad design, bad manufacturing, ...
My understanding is that hardness of material is not the problem..but it’s lack of lubrication, which causes even properly hard material to wear off.
The hardness of the cams is parmesan
Had exact same issue, had problems with warranty claim but in Australia where we have strong consumer laws so eventually KTM covered all costs.
The situation is we do not know if it’s going to happen again after replacement.
Fantastic bike to ride, it’s a complete liability ownership wise, lost all faith in the bike and experience with KTM has been atrocious, will never own a KTM again.
That's why doing research is so important. This is nothing new.
KTM have been acting like con artists for many many years.
People need to wake up and stop supporting this scam
Me too mate, going through that now, 6 months it's been down, I'm after a refund
Thanks for posting this. KTM should cover this under warranty. I have owned KTM dirt bikes since 2001 as well as a 690 I bought in 2014. My next steet bike will probably be a T7 instead of a 790/890. Please ask KTM warranty why the head was superceeded with an updated design. If you have no traction and they still refise to help I would forward this video to them as kindly tell them to read the coments. Good luck, enjoy your trip!
Maybe I will, good idea
Yup - the superceded head seems to show they know the problem, and they have a solution. This should be a goodwill repair.
I was going to buy the new 790 adventure and get a 390 adventure for the wife...I was nervous to do so. I will be going with a different brand, thanks to your informative video.
I feel very sorry for you. I know exactly your feelings as we have two ktm in house. My GF have 790 2019 also with failed cams. also on 25K kms. And I personaly have 890 2023, I am very scared to open the engine on 25K km, if I will have the same issue, we will trade both bikes and go with BMW. Exactly as you said: We dont want to have adventure bike, that cannot adventure. Top end rebuild every season is just sick and unacceptable...
This issue is so widely acknowledged right around the world. It needed to be treated as a recall to rectify the cams/head/oil pressure issues.
You and every single owner of these lemons should have had either full warranty or near 100% Goodwill.
Best of luck on your travels👍
Don't take that bike, sell it and get a Yamaha or Suzuki , the metal from the cams has passed around the engine for ages , the filters would not have stopped it all, grinding liquid.
Not an option when I leave in 3 weeks and have invested thousands in parts and accessories for it.
@@Adv_Charlie You are very modest about your engineering competence. I have owned many, many bikes, do all the servicing I can and probably understand the mechanicals less than you do. But I think the fact of your having invested so much time and money in this non-viable machine is persuading you to throw good money after bad. When, not if, the bike breaks down again on the other side of the pond, how much support are you going to get from KTM there? KTM is not even playing fair with their own dealerships. Sod 'em.
@@Adv_Charlieand do you trust this bike to do a long long trip?
@m2menuiserie540 Probably get as much support as I can now! If there is a next time it won't go to a dealer.
The rest of the bike yes as I’ve been over it all. The engine and new parts? Honestly, I’m rolling the dice. Hopefully, the new head is better. 🤞🏻 hopefully the new cams have been manufactured better 🤞🏻
I just don't want anything to get in the way of my starting my trip. What happens on the trip will be part of the trip and I’m fully expecting challenges just hope it's not engine.
In Australia, consumer law says products sold must be fit for purpose and match the way they're advertised. Such laws supercede manuacturer claims and warranties. I believe there is similar in the UK. Wield and enforce the laws, that's your right as a citizen and has been factored into the product pricing.
Just parted company with my 2019 790 ... gone back to Japanese again. KTMs are awesome when they work properly, by far the most fun bike I've owned ... but more commonly appearing major issues like this bring a certain amount of anxiety to ownership too. My new bike is far far far less likely to destroy itself from the inside out and the peace of mind is considerably relieving.
well, Kawasaki does not any warranty in my country, I had a Versys 650 and the lambda probe failed around 8500km mark (5 months since buying), they refused the warranty because "the paint has chips and scratches due to usage"
Could you imagine what would happen to a car manufacturer if their engines were failing from a common issue like a camshaft failure?
Well said Charlie, it's not like it's in the service schedule that the cams be replaced at 18K klms.
Enjoy your epic trip to the States.
It happens quite regularly in the car industry- Jeep/ Dodge 392 Hemi’s have exactly the same issues- and also LS motors in GM products. This is more common than you may think
@@mopargrub4448 Outside of the USA, American manufacturing has a poor reputation for quality. Some non car/motorcycle examples are SRAM / ZIPP (can't even make bicycle wheels properly), Remington firearms (trigger safety fail - you would think an American company would be able to make firearms well, you know, for the "Freedom") and then there's Boeing... Chrysler was bought by Mercedes Group in 1998, and when the Germans realized they had purchased an absolute shit-show, they off-loaded it as soon as possible (2007). And I had to deal with General Motors products (Holden) first hand. Early LS1 oil pump failures, plastic plug in the oil gallery, single bolt holding the oil pickup in place. And can you say "Body Control Module"? America! Fuck Yeah!
Well done Charlie in clearly showing the damage done along with the appalling way the issue has been handled by KTM UK. A few points to consider:-
• KTM UK is owned wholly by KTM Austria according to documents on Companies House. Therefore how KTM UK treats customers, is indicative of the way the parent company views the end user of the goods they produced.
• Louise is employed to specifically ignore valid points raised by a customer, and not to respond to items that will create a liability issue. In simple terms her job role is to be obstructive whilst having no technical knowledge!
• KTM Austria made profit on selling the parts to KTM UK. KTM UK made profit selling the parts to the authorised dealer network. Then the dealer gave a ‘goodwill gesture’ of 10% discount on these parts. The parts bill could have been reduced by 50%, and the whole supply chain would have still made profit.
• Due to the fact many KTM franchised dealers will also be supplying CF Moto, you can only expect the delays to get worse from the whole network.
• Louise made an assumption that doing an oil change is a skilled job that only ‘factory trained technicians’ can do. She clearly missed the fact the details are in the Owner’s Manual; Page 173 Service Schedule clearly states ‘change the engine oil and the oil filter, clean the oil screens’ Page 329. Doesn’t this indicate that KTM Austria expects customers to have periods when they will need to perform this service at times themselves? Therefore having the invoice for the required service parts really should be enough to earn better goodwill and for the ‘failed components’ should really have been provided at cost, as a worst case scenario.
• There is a reason the cam followers have been left out of the box!
I learnt within a few months of purchasing my 2022 890R, just how badly KTM UK are willing to treat customers. Hence when the 2024 890 Rally order book was opened last September, I was more than happy NOT to place a deposit on this or to purchase any other bikes from a brand I had previously considered desirable.
Enjoy the trip once you and the bike get to Canada, it should be memorable for all the right reasons.
WOW! that lobe is absolutely trashed! this is quite unbelievable
It would be unbelievable but... KTM.
It is shameful that KTM does not honor these warranty claims. If there were a few isolated cases, I could understand. However, up to date, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of issues with the camshafts of their in-line engines. I really hope some official organization forces them to do a massive recall.
I hope something is done about it. The reason for my video is to get it known and point the spot light at it a bit.
@@Adv_Charlie, I think every 790/890 owner is grateful to you for that. They would be amazing bikes if it wasn't for the camshaft issue.
i would definitly seek some legal on this - manufacturers cannot make warranty conditional on dealer servicing, and as you have only ever had their own brand filters, etc, and the bike has been serviced within the required mileage and time, I think that despite the bike being out of warranty, it would be quite easy to prove that the bike was not fit for purpose. In addition, the fact that the parts concerned have now been modified means that KTM know there was/is a problem with the originals, and presumably have never advised owners, or instigated a recall, would certainly count against them should it ever get to court. I think a good solicitor would sort this matter - KTM would not want to risk it going to court, as it could start a tsunami of similar claims. Whatever you do - good luck with it.
Completely agree with this. I read through the fine print on my warranty (US) a while back and I do recall there was explicit language about allowing owners to perform their own maintenance so long as approved parts and procedures are followed. Could be different in the UK warranty, but you might want to give it a read to understand your rights. Either way, it's a total cop out on KTM's part...
I noticed that the cam lobes with wear in my 2020 790 Adv R matched the cam followers that had the coating worn off.
My Vstrom 650 has 180,000 klms and no discernable wear..Every KTM rider I have ever met around the world has a tale of woe
I own two KTMs but I would never recommend anybody else buying one. I’m a decent mechanic and that’s what’s kept my bikes running over the years. I tear them down every winter in just to be able to sleep well during the riding season
Currently diving into a vavle adjustment on my 790R with only 5200 miles on it. Hopefully putting a high pressure spring in the oil pump will help the longevity. If you need any help on your trip near Madison Wisconsin let me know!
This is exactly why I sold mine before I had these issues.
Look at the asymmetry of wear. It’s clearly not related to shaft hardness because it would be worn symmetrically. This must have to do with rocket arm failure or, more likely, lubricación, especially toward the right cam exhaust lobes
Recently joined that FB group you mention. That's discolouration on the cam lobes is definitely a lubrication issue! I've seen this heaps in high performance petrol engines that don't modify the oil pump to keep up.
Even some of the other cam lobes seem to be starting to change color too?
I had a KTM 990 Adventure that I bought brand new. From day one I had the following issues: 1. Clutch that would not disengage fully. Had to hold the front brakes to stop the bike walking. KTM's response: Nothing wrong with the bike. 2. Water pump impeller detached and bike over heated. KTM's response: We have never seen this happen before. Check on the forums, this was a problem on KTM 990s. 3. From new this bike had a vibration on the motor that was so bad, it makes your ass numb when riding long distances. 4. The bikes fuel injection was snatchy from new. When revving the bike to 3k rpm and holding it at those rpms without moving the throttle, the rpms vary and hunt
wildly. KTM's response: This is how these bikes are. I will never buy a KTM again. Biggest POS I ever owned.
You want a reliable bike go Japanese.
I test rode a KTM 690 Enduro last year, I loved it, an absolute blast to ride and I knew it would be very capable off road. But I had some doubts in my mind about the reliability and also KTM dealers are not exactly thick on the ground in some parts if the world, meaning I would have to service the bike myself. I also imagined being on a trip and having to send the bike thousands of kms to a dealer for repair (in or out of warranty) while incurring massive out of pocket expenses. So I bought a ... Kawasaki KLR650. Certainly not as fast or smooth as a 690, but I honestly think my mental health is better for it. It's called "peace of mind", and I want my mind to be at peace. That is priceless to me. I have been servicing the KLR myself and I have no concerns. BTW the KLR cost exactly HALF what the 690 was going to cost with the Power Parts I wanted. Power Parts are a massive rip-off in my IMHO, but you know, you are spending that much money, you want to keep it genuine...for the warranty lol. KTM's motto is "Ready to Race". The motto for the KLR650 should be "It will Get You There".
Nonsense! You make this comment under a video which is clearly related to subpar metallurgy and perhaps other issues (like oil starvation at that end of the camshaft) and bring a paradigm of the 990 LC8 with many many high mileage bikes out there.
Apples and oranges!
Your problems were inappropriate hydraulic clutch bleeding or Magura component failure either at the master or slave cylinder (both easily and inexpensively fixed). Most bikes in the market have such components failing all the time.
The vibration is either tire-related or bad TB balance (that can be easily fixed at no cost).
The "snatchy throttle" issue is 100% due to mapping that was trying to simulate the carburated (consumer) version of the 950 (not the Dakar rally bike fueling that needed very rich higher range for all day wide open throttle conditions). TuneECU and custom maps can adjust the fueling to any need out there.
When you buy a bike that was designed and developed for the Dakar and you want to ride it like a moped, without a custom made fitment to your needs, you end up with an experience like yours!
@@C_R_O_M________ And you are willing to put up with all of those issues that "can be fixed" after paying good money for a brand new bike. Out of the Aprilia RSV Mille, Suzuki DRZ 400 SM, Yamaha R1, Yamaha YZ450F and notably the Honda CRF1100, not even one of those bikes had the kind of issues that the "mighty" KTM had. Most importantly the money I paid for the bike was not in any way defective. If you are happy to pay good money (and keep paying and paying and paying) for a hand grenade like the KTM and put up with all its "Nonsense", and it makes you happy, then good for you, but reliability is number 1 on my list of requirements. "Its okay that my bike packed up and I had to shell out huge amounts of money to fix it, it was due to subpar metallurgy" is the same as saying "My bike packed up because the manufacturer decided that plastic was a better material to make pistons out of, its okay though, I will pay for their mistake by buying another one of their possibly plastic pistons". Guess Japan snapped up all them talented metallurgists...In answer to your "high mileage 990 LC8" comment: You are absolutely right, their are PLENTLY of high mileage LC8s out there. But how much money did it take to get them there?
@@davidsussens4478 I have no appetite for confrontation on things I know to be true.
The facts are: KTM was established as a brand (as close as to the) "ready to race" mentality and with the 950/990 they hit the nail on the head.
You don't get a work horse with that bike but a race horse and as such you need to be keeping it at top form.
That's a compromise I am willing to go for.
It's an honest dealing between two parties: "I sell you this product but you should take notice that this is something you need to keep up with in terms of maintenance - pull the trigger and buy it but acknowledge what you are buying from me".
The things you mentioned are known peripheral problems. Not essential issues to leave you from getting that race horse.
Now, your riding style and needs could be different and you could be perfectly fine with a mule like the GS on which you can carry the kitchen sink and everything else to camping grounds but I doubt a lot more their honesty as related to the mission intended.
The GS sucks as an adventure bike. I've owned two and both had HUGE problems. The first one consumed 1000ml oil per 1K Kms (from new) and the second one grenaded the engine with just 20K kms on the clock. Then after a complete engine rework the rear shaft final drive bearings gave up the ghost . I've has enough and traded it in for my first 990.
What a difference!
Yes, I agree, Japanese bikes are built differently, I still own one (a GTR 1400) and owned others, all excellent machines, but HOW my KTMs take me to places makes a substantial difference to me.
I now own two KTMs a very low mileage 990 and a 2012 500EXC (which has been bulletproof in terms of reliability and boy have I ridden that girl hard and bounced her up and down rocks on all possible axis!).
Bought the 990 a few months ago after selling my previous one (a few years back) with 110K kms (from new). I know what I'm getting for the 7.5K Euros I paid and the extra 2K for upgrades in suspension, lights, seat, ergos, tires, mask, etc.
It's a bike I know and know well. They won't make these bikes available to public again. These were Arabian stallions and here we are comparing apples to oranges.
If you can live with an Arabian stallion in the barn you need to know that this horse is needy and perky.
It will not refuse to draw a carriage once in a while but it will occasionally buck you off the saddle if you use it inappropriately.
So it comes up to "Know what are you getting for your money" and this is the point where I agree with you 100%. But be sure to know!
P.S. Contemporary KTM bikes (especially of the non-EXC enduro/MX niche - hence the latter's exorbitant pricing!) are plagued from the outsourcing of production to emerging markets from Asia mainly because domestic production in Austria (like all around EU) has been impacted by the inflated statist costs - the European States have become a cancerous growth to carry around and companies try to lower costs to survive.
That's going to be having an impact on quality. Once again, know what you are paying for (and that's why I won't pay a premium for things I won't use - like all the electronic nonsense and production out of Asian countries and their subpar quality control).
In other words: two people can buy the same brand and one will qualify as a sucker while the other not.
Value for money and knowledge is the key for a good consumer experience (and respective "signals" to producers/corporations).
As consumers we shouldn't be assumed (to be) passive recipients of marketing and its traps.
Just as Democracy isn't to be left on auto pilot, markets are a democratic place where you vote with your money (like you said) and your feet.
"Know what you vote for" is my final, bottom line, message.
@@C_R_O_M________ I hear you. Horses for courses. Irrespective of what brand you buy, know what you are getting into. All good points.
Thank you for the knowledge,I was going to buy a 890 and now going elsewhere for reliability and Stan behind product! 🎉😮
Great Vid, Sorry to see KTM didn't warrant this world wide problem for you. Here in Australia they are warranting this problem outside of warranty period for a lot of cases.
I own a 2020 KTM 790 Adv R. I have a theory on the Cam problem. The valve shim clearances seem to close very quickly.
I checked my valve shim clearances at 10,000 kilometres/6Mi , some of them were in mid spec tolerance . (They had already started to close from the factory specification of:
Inlet 0.15/ Exhaust 0.20)
I re checked the shims at 16K/9Mi , I had to adjust 4 shims.
I re checked shims at 24K/14Mi , I had to adjust another 2 shims.
If the valve shim clearances get to zero, the followers will run constantly on the cams, The cam lobes and followers get too hot and then you have this issue.
If I had not checked my valve shim clearances until 24K/15Mi I believe I would have a got to zero valve shim clearance with some of the valves and have the same problem. IMO the valve clearance's should be checked at 15k/9Mi and again at 25k/15Mi. (But its a costly job if you have to pay someone to do it for you) I did this myself.
I Have the identical Air filtration set up as you. I only ride off road. (Lots of dirt)
I change my oil every 7,000 Kilometres
Air filter cleaned after every ride.
My Cams are fine. I have not had a problem with them so far.
I will re-check my clearance's at 40K/24Mi. 🙂🛠
Good theory, mate.
So, what is the reason the valve clearance get tighter ?
Is it the valve seat ?
I had that on a couple of bikes. On one it burned a exhaust valve as a result.
I would like to see the exhaust valve on the bike mentioned in the video.
There is a good change that you naild the problem. I think you ar right! Cheers mate.
I think you might be spot on! And I’ll be sure to check after say 10k miles I have the manual and I’m not worried about doing the work of checking. It was changing the cams and knowing what bad wear looked like as I don't have the experience to know if something is on its way out. A part from the obvious state of my shit show for a cam lobes.
But, if there is an oil film, despite the continuous contact, there should not be that kind of wear...
@@TetraX-ui7xl I have heard of valve seat regression. soft valve seats, My bike definitely does not like 91Ron fuel.
I can hear detonation off the bottom rev range if I have 91 in the tank, that would cause valve wear (and possibly more damage). If I put 95 or 98 the engine runs fine. (No detonation) I first thought it was the cam chain tensioner, but I changed it for a dirt tricks tensioner.
I always use 95/98 fuel, but it wasn't available on my last ride and I had to put 91 in it. The detonation noise instantly came back. Its defiantly not dust, I am so fussy with my Airlifters. I have dusted an engine. I have paid for that privilege. That wont happen again! So there's a few speculative theory's? But I guess we will probably never know.
I enjoyed what you had to say and how you said it. I guessed 3000-3500£ before you said the cost of the fix.
Enjoy your ride and stay safe and more importantly,stay warm.
From NZ
If you're in NZ then stay dry 😂
For all those keen eyed people thank you for your comments about my air filter. I did also notice at 8:40
Edit:
I have spoken to my dealer the head was changed to to wear making the new cams no longer fit properly. My oil pressure was also checked and is within spec which is good news.
They agree KTM have their head in the sand on this issue and that had another bike with the issue come In today 22/04/24
I owned a 2020 790R that had worn cams that were discovered by my local KTM service center at the 30000 km service. Both cams and followers were replaced under warranty. Up to that point the bike had been flawless. I now have an 2023 890R with 14000 km and no issues.
The powerplate increases the volume of air allowed in so should make up for the extra layers. No?
@@Adv_Charlie Don't sweat it, if you lose top end power (which I assume you'd have noticed already) Then it's being choked. Other words don't fix what ain't broke. I have a brand new Norden Expedition 901(2024) & you've got me suddenly concerned regards premature Cam Wear. I had to change my 1st oil, filter & O-rings myself because riding 250mi to the closest dealer would've put me over the limit (compromising the warranty) I used MotorX 10/50 & the proper kit & your video tells me that KTM/Husqvarna might try a finagle job in the future ? This will become an international incident if they pull the same crap on me. The price I paid I could've bought 2 Yamaha's. What happened to German precision ?
Still within the German boarders!
Mesh faces engine be my guess..
My 690 Enduro (2016) shit the bed when the roller seized on my intake rocker at 19,000 km. The needle bearings had self-destructed, causing the roller to seize, and shims to be ejected, but the cam lobe was almost unscathed. I've recently been debating a new Ducati 698 or 690 SMC R. My 690 experience had me leaning towards Ducati and the desmo head. I recently began second guessing myself, after learning that newer 690s are using finger followers. Thanks to you, I can now I can eliminate KTM from consideration, after learning that they can't do finger followers and have switched to Chinesium camshafts. Sorry to hear KTM is falling apart, and sorry to hear of your woes, but thanks for sharing!
The fact that they've redesigned the head suggests the old one was defective. They should step up and compensate you for this repair.
I've started to wonder if CFmoto is subverting the manufacturing line on KTM production, to drive customers towards their cheaper offerings ... greed karma?
698 is on its way. Thanks again. :)
Thx Charlie … yet another clear example of dodgy design and engineering
Sorry to see KTM gave you a shaft too. Good you made the vid. Informative!
I got my 2020 KTM 790 Adventure to a dealer in Germany to verify the shafts because of some reports in this regard, though not enough to trigger an official recall action. I bought the bike in 2023 from the first owner with around 20000 KM.
The bill was covered by the extended warranty which had nothing to do with the manufacturer warranty, around 1600 Euros, but the engine still has a rattling noise when cold. The same sound as before the repair, which makes me doubt very much that the engine received a bunch of new parts and adjustments, as invoiced: new shafts, new valves + adjustment, new chain.
The only way to check if the parts on the invoice really ended up installed in my bike is only by opening it. I guess I'm in for a surprise.
Austrians are very sneaky and cunning people which can't be trusted but nowadays, you can't trust their products either 😄. But wait, KTM decided to move the manufacturing of bigger bikes (all models above 390cc) to CN, which means it's NOT made in Austria any more.
Choosing my first adventure bike..The 2024 KTM adventure 790 was at the top.. Second being the 24 Honda TransAlp. This changed everything. The warranty through KTM is pathetic! I’m out because of the warranty… KTM lost another customer.. This video cost them more than they’ll know.
I believe they fixed the issue in 2021 however there is no proof. I think everyone has lost trust in the bikes over this and I agree they will be feeling the loss of sales. Some third-party dealerships are refusing them as a part ex as they don't want to have the issue
Greetings from Texas. Thanks for posting this video. I also have a 2019 790 Adventure. Right at 15k miles. I haven’t noticed any symptoms of a problem but am now curious to know what my cams look like.
Hope your bike is good now! Have a great trip!
You should cut open Your oil filters and have a look after metal
@@ktmturbo5836 Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll do that.
@@march.4809 post here after.
I switched to an Suzuki 800de . Wow ! Now I can relax. It’s purpose built 😅❤️
That's not because of the metal quality of the cam shaft, it's lubrication issues. As I understood some of the oil paths got randomly clogged up and some parts of the shaft stop getting enough lubrication. I hope that they somehow cleaned the oil paths when they did the shaft replacement, otherwise it will likely happen again.
Ready to Race but be ready to swap out parts. I hope they got better hardened camshafts or maybe have some kind of after market roller rocker design head which would allow for that type of high lift cam lobes they have for the awesome performance these engines produce.
That is criminal of KTM. I’m very sorry to hear. I hope there is warranty in the new parts!
I hope your trip is fun and a success regardless!
I bought the 1290 SAS with radar in 2021 November. Traded it in in June 2022 after multiple issues. Death wobble at around 118mph, adaptive cruise control trying to ram me into the vehicle ahead, moisture inside the switches, refusing to start at random even with a full battery. I thought I will cut my losses. Lost £9k. Will never buy KTM ever again. The bike had less than 3000 miles on it.
Lol, my dad have the same bike and did 30k kms without even single issue. Battery failure was fixed after ecu update. He never had any of problems You mentioned. Wobble was caused by shitty oem tires (almost every new bike had crap tires to let You get new ones). Actually new 1290 is really solid engine, not even comparable to 790/890 crap. Best of luck brother !
@@jerronimo6874 "almost every new bike had crap tires to let You get new ones" Absolute rubbish comment. I've been riding for almost 50 years, you have no idea how good normal motorcycle tyres are mate, stock tyres now are better than the high performance tyres I was using in the late 70's, up until the late 80's..... I've had well over 30 bikes....
@@MickH60 i don’t care how long are you riding. You just don’t know that new oem tires, on new bike are completely different than the same tires You buy anywhere. Oem are softer ones with different rubber mixture. They are cracking on sun faster, last shorter, have discoloration so they are yellow after few months. I had few new bikes and every one had shit new tries. Especially KTM 1290sas with Mitas crap which were causing shimmy at middle speed. Same shit with r1250gs which have Michelin tires which are completely used after 5-6kkm but when You get new from store they will do 20kkm easily.
Charlie you are very calm and collected. I would be totally mad! How can they not help you out with warranty given that this is a well known and documented engineering failure? Crazy. I would not go near any bike they make.
It it now well documented put at the time KTM where hiding it. I was calm for the sake of the video I also felt at the time there was nothing I could do and my focus was on getting ready for my trip. since making this video KTM have now refunded me the full amount. As I explain in my update video
I was going to order a Norden 901 exp. Dont think i will bother now! I will keep my bulletproof Africa Twin which i bought new in 2016 0:02
Thank you for this video; it was a lifesaver! I was considering buying one, but now I will explore other options. Thanks again!
In Africa and Asia, in 98% of cases, people ride Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki motorcycles. They service them with whatever tools they have, maintain them in their own garages, and ride them in all sorts of conditions, covering up to 200,000 kilometers. BMW, KTM, Aprilia, and Husqvarna are not popular because they constantly break down, and their services are so expensive that only someone with money to spare buys them.
Thanks for posting this problem. Just put me off buying a new 890 Adventure . I own a 1190R and a 690R.
If a KTM mechanic had done the last service they may have noticed swarf in the screens and filter that must have been there as well as glitter in the oil itself and also because of their familiarity with the normal engine noise, the additional clatter or ticking that your motor must have had by then. The gradual change in engine noise overtime might have been unnoticeable to yourself.
That being said, I fully understand why you would do your own servicing out of the warranty period. The new head design suggests an upgrade to deal with a known problem (why else would it be done) which is probably an oil feed upgrade to the cam journals and lobes. As others have said, a lot of metal swarf has passed though that engine. I'd try and speak to the tech that did the work or at least the service manager to try and establish which other parts may have been affected, ie the oil pump etc
Seems to be a design flaw if there are so many similar issues with similar bikes.
Might be worth pursuing with KTM why a head upgrade has been necessary for that model. Might give you more evidence to support your claim. Don't give up.
Good of you to post this video. Was considering a Ktm. Not anymore.
Hi Charlie, first - I find reading the correspondance that the KTM UK response to be disgusting - sorry for you. I have a 2019 also with ALL the top end done (excluding new head). I could be wrong (noticed you added a correcting comment to the video) - but doesn't the wire grate/mesh on the airfilter element go on the inside of the airbox (to stop the foam from being sucked in). I am pretty sure as I installed mine incorrectly at 5000km and ran for around 1 week of dusty, group riding and fully dusted my motor - the foam sucked in half way and I had no filtration. The bike ran until 36000km then I had to get new valves, piston and rings - it would not cold start (repair at great cost to myself in early). BUT my cams were good at this time. The after a long AU to UK overland trip in 2023 (bike then had 71000km), I got my valve clearances checked and asked for cam photos. Valves OK (small adjustment needed) - but needed new cams (only early stage wear) and followers which KTM Australia covered under goodwill warranty. Like you - I love the bike. Also wondering what the improvements are on the new head ...
Spot on about the air filter mesh. I don't think that had been that way for long as I clean and re-oil that regularly. It's been cleaned again and put back the correct way between filming and releasing this video. 👍🏻
Nice to hear you did a big trip on it and now have some decent number of k’s on it. So did you have 1 or 2 sets of new cams?
@@Adv_Charlie Hi Charlie - one set (intake and exhaust) at 71000km
Hey up mate the air filter mesh definitely on inside of air box
Good luck on your trip, sounds like it's going to be a good one.
KTM need to sort out these issues, reliability is a well known problem. Japanese still seem to be top for longevity.
Screw KTM. They've lost their way and should be shunned.
That shit wouldn't happen to a Honda 😝
Wish one of the Japanese 4 made a competitor to the 690 smcr
Worked at a KTM dealership in sweden, and i was tasked to prepare a brand new 2023 KTM 690 smc-r and after checking everything per KTM routine i started it for the first time ever... And it rattled like it didn't have any oil pressure at all, but the light went out, after some fault finding it turned out it didn't have any oil going to the cams. So even brand new bikes aren't safe. We never could figure out why it didn't get oil to the cams. Had to send it back to KTM. Have many strange stories about KTM's failing.
I believe my issue started at mile 0. Something was wrong from the start.
I think I'm happy with my T7. What a story and what bullshit that KTM doesn't provide answers. Have a great trip in the America's.
T7 for ever 😁✌️
A loyal KTM owner of a dozen bike history. Still have 4 in the garage. I traded my 2020 790R in at 3900miles due to KTMs poor customer service response and didnt like the idea of riding a time bomb. No more KTMs , GG, Husqvana , for me.
Wow, that's crap. In the USA a company can't deny warranty coverage because you didn't do all the service work through them. This kind of kills any desire I might have to own a 790/890 Adv, I'll just stick with my 690. If you find yourself in Colorado and need help, I'm in Denver. Look me up.
That’s very kind of you i’ll keep that offer in mind.
Hi neighbor, I’m in the Springs 👋🏻
I've always liked the KTM. Now I know better. Sorry for your trouble. I had a simlar problem with a BMW.
Those cams have been wearing for quite a while so they didn’t actually last 16,000 miles.
Wonder where the cams were made? I have a 2023 890, opted for an extended dealer warranty because KTM. KTM also gave me a 2 year warranty on it. Mine was built in Austria. I think the 790's were built in china. Definitely seems like an oil pump issue, and maybe soft cams. I haven't really had any serious issues with mine but it only has 3000 miles so far.
Utter shit that KTM didn't cover this. Just shows that they dont stand by their product or their customers. i think this negligence is going to hurt them hard, and rightfully so. Thanks for making this video though. with currently 63000 views and over 1100 comments KTM have to be aware that the masses are starting to learn about this saga, which i hope forces them to pull their head out of their a$$ and correct the problem both for people who have previously had the problem as well as preventing it for everyone else.
wow, i was looking at buying a 23' 890 Adventure R. think im gonna hold off and see what comes of this wide spread problem.
That looks like a lubrication problem to me. I mean why would one set of intake lobes wear to buggery but the other lobes on the same cam look fine? I suspect the worn set had no lube on them. I really like the look of the KTMs but the amount of horror stories about failures and the repair time means I'll never buy one. Seen the KTM response...at least Dick Turpin wore a mask. *Edit* Best of British luck for your trip, hope you have a great time..
100% agree I've seen this sort of thing a few times in engine with lubrication or oil pressure issues. I'm sure it could have been picked up too if an oil analysis was being done too!
It’s a shame they don’t fix the oil flow issues/camshaft and the clutch plate issues.
If these two issues were prioritised then the bike would be reliable.
Then there would be no questioning which bike to buy when choosing an adventure bike.
Because without a doubt these bikes are far superior to ride over their counterparts ie: T7,Africa twin, DR, etc adventure bikes.
You changed the oil and oil filters, there is no reason the cam failed because you serviced it yourself.
This is an issue they really need to address. 🤞
I’m not downplaying what’s going on here, but if there were no cam or clutch issues, I guarantee that there would be some other issue(s) that people would say the same exact thing about.
I’m happy this issue is getting more press so it drives down the cost of the 890 Adv R I need to replace. I crash and total motorcycles before they ever have a chance to have mechanical failures. 2023 890 Adv R best bike zine ever ridden. I had 8K miles on it trouble free before a car pulled out in front me when I was going 60 mph. The bike died and I need to replace it, lol
Sorry for your problems Charlie but glad you made this film, I was intending buying a 790 Adventure this year and now I’m looking elsewhere due to the poor materials Ktm are using but also of the shitty way they have dealt with this, they could if they’d tried met you at least some of the way and had a positive outcome but now I don’t think I’d ever buy a KTM. Good luck for your trip hope you enjoy it.
Knew this was going to happen, as soon as they started making bikes out of Austria. I made the dealer show me proof that my super duke GT was totally made in Austria. They looked at me as if I was nuts. Ive worked around the world.
Glad you like the bike fella, as no ones going to touch a second hand 790 now. Enjoy you're trip mate. On the last night of the trip, park it somewhere like Detroit with good American insurance is my advice. save shipping it home and replacing the head again!!
"Knew this was going to happen, as soon as they started making bikes out of Austria." Is a bullshit conclusion. 950's Had cam problems, among a whole lot of other quality issues.
"I made the dealer show me proof that my super duke GT was totally made in Austria." Ofcourse they're looking at you like you're an idiot. Parts are made all over the world and even shared among brands. My pressure plate is made in Italy and my fuelpump is a Mitsubishi. A KTM with the same fuel pump as a Honda, go figure.
looking at both camshafts, there's a certain amount of wear on all the lobes, which is to be expected, but if it was a hardening or metallurgy issue, you wouldn't expect to see catastophic lobe wear on only two. Most 'wear' takes place in the first few minutes of initial running, until the whole assembly (followers, shafts and shims) are properly work hardened. Oil starvation at that point could create sufficient heat to flatten a lobe and follower, but then you'd also expect to see scoring/bluing on the associated journals and shells. Without being familiar with KTM's valvetrain and head design it's only a semi-educated guess, but for two lobes to be so trashed, relative to all the others, with no discernable journal wear, I'd suggest there is a mechanical (interference) reason for those two followers to be driven into the lobe and not 'return' properly, probably due to localized oil starvation. I once owned a DR650 that suffered a major heat seizure (nearside main bearing). The bike had been routinely serviced, ridden sensibly and had only covered around 5K. Turns out, after a full strip down and forensic inspection, there was a 2 inch long piece of swarf that had been lodged in one of the oil delivey tubes that hadn't been washed out at the factory....the bearing was starved of oil from the get go, and it was oly a matter of time before it failed. I feel your pain! KTM only have themselves to blame if prospectiv buyers lose faith in their reliability. Shit happens, stuff breaks for all sorts of reasons, but catastrophic cam failure on a 16K bike with a good service history by a conscientious owner is not acceptable...under the circumstances this should have been undertaken as a goodwil repair, or at the very least, KTM should cover the cost of the new components....I've never considered buying KTM motorcycles for this very reason, even though they are capable of designing excellent machinery.
I got an identical response for a valve cover leak on mine, because I did the 2nd year service myself (6 months out of warranty), and I doubt they would've covered it anyway. I tried becasue the valve cover gasket has an upgraded part which indicates that the original one was defective. They don't care. I just have to hope that at 18k when they open they don't find cams like yours.. a lot of people here are hardcore KTM fans (including me, like you I love the bike), but they need to be held accountable, these should be all covered by them as manufacturing defects
100% agree 👍🏻
That sucks, KTM did my cams and followers in 2023 under warranty on my 2019 790 at 26,000km. I had serviced mine myself often, I did do all of the KTM services though and they stumped up and actually did it twice so I could go on a trip. The first time was because they could not get the superseded parts in time for my trip so they replaced them again after I got back
Do you have a stock intake on your bike?
@@peterlv no I have the Rottweiler full intake with funnelweb filters. I have run that for most of the bikes life and never had dust ingress into the air intake. KTM were not interested in that or any or modification as I run all of the stock sensors
@@GeoffBarnard I am asking this only because I have heard time and time again that most people with cam issues have modified air intake, and this is what I have heard from dealers. Stock bikes allegedly tend to have less of these issues. It certainly would be interesting to get actual real world data, but it's an observation I have heard more than once or twice.
@@peterlv Mine has never had dust through it even on the stock air filter which has way less filtration than my setup, I use a full soak filter oil not spray on. KTM confirmed it was hardening, I also think they have an oil distribution issue and given they now have a superseded head number I am guessing they know this too. Dust through the airbox makes no sense anyway as you would have damage other places long before it affected the cams and followers, plus they would all be affected evenly.
@@GeoffBarnard I am not trying to argue with you, I am just telling what I have heard more than once and would love to see actual numbers if any dealer owner would run them on how many stock intake bikes vs how many modified bikes are having this issue.
Not only the unifilter cage is backwards but the 2 layers are too...the grill of the cage must be facing the inside of the airbox to avoid the layers getting suck in. Yellow layer must be facing out
Yes I know. I did put a text on the screen and pinned a comment about it. It is all refreshed and out back as it should be.
Chinese quality at Austrian prices. The surface of that cam wasn't hardened or lubricated properly.
You're right Andrew, KTM 790 engines are made by CFMoto in China.
Were oil pumps replaced/inspected? With this amount of material circulating in oil, they had to suffer. If you changed the whole head, and the oil pressure will be low, you might say farewell to the new head very soon!