BLACKMAGIC is changing the GAME again | PYXIS and Ursa Cine 12K impressions!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video I talk about the new Blackmagic cameras that were announced at NAB 2024, the Blackmagic PYXIS and the URSA CINE 12K!
Thanks Simon and Colin for the NAB footage!
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The fact this review is coming from someone who uses these cameras professionally is amazing coz most people commenting on these cameras don't even own a blackmagic
Truth.
What people don't seem to understand is that BMD is advertising they dynamic range very conservatively, just like ARRI does theirs. These 12-13 stops are actually usable unlike RED or Sonys 16 stops that are just bullshit marketing and more like landing on 12-12.5 stops in every test. being ever so slightly better than the BMPCC, but I will take BRAW and half a stop less of DR every day of the week compared to anything Sony, Canon or even RED puts out. Colors are so much better, being only beat by ARRI IMHO.
And those Sony mirrorless are only able to land on that 12,5 because of the forced noise reduction they apply in camera, they would score lower if shot in a raw codec
I can attest that what you are saying is correct, finally a voice of the educated. I shoot with a Sony F55 and Sony marketed that with 14 stops, it’s closer to 11, and I’ve NEVER had an issue. He’s 100% right about the problem being the operator.
Ten years ago, I started shooting with BMD cameras because they were one of the few sub-$10k offerings that could capture raw, 12-bit footage with 13 stops of DR. Digital Bolex was another option. There was also Ikonoskop's A-Cam dll and Kinefinity's KineRAW Mini, but they weren’t as common. If you wanted anything similar, you’d have to pay a lot more for something like a Canon C500, Sony FS700, or a RED camera. Most other cameras (at the time) only recorded highly compressed 8-bit 4:2:0 and barely managed 10 stops of DR. To think 13 stops of DR isn't enough for filmmaking just sounds crazy to me. I just don't understand why people are so unhappy with such amazing choices! 🙂
@@shawnmiller8169 I still have my FS700, lovely camera! So many frame rates!!!
@@kamikaze1213 Absolutely! The high framerates were insane for the time! Although, I think I may have been thinking of the F55. 🙂IIRC, it was a 14 stop camera that could record raw. But the FS700 was also a good camera. 🙂
Blackmagic is truly for the filmmaker and aspiring filmmaker.
The best thing is you can grab an old 12k ursa for like 3.5k with the 6k pro you are pretty good to start an agency
Planning on grabbing one for sure lol. Starting to see the 4.6ks show up sub 1000 usd
Old! I feel like I just got it lol...I guess it has been 3 years.
I have a 6k pro, what did you mean by agency? :) Like a production crew type thing?
@@nv.77Yes, your own production company.
I got to play with the Pyxis and Ursa Cine and they are both amazing! The new EVF is crisp and a must have accessory if you plan on upgrading.
Finally to hear from Mateo himself. Been waiting for this.
I can actually listen to you talk for a long time. You're one of my most favorite people on this red app. Thanks for bringing order whenever there's chaos.❤
Honestly, BM changed the game. No Sony cameras were harmed during this comment. Thanks Matteo
The thing that 6K Pro taught me over my G2 : texture over dynamic range (I love the 6K Pro texture on skintones) . For the highlight it's all about the roll off really past a certain amount of DR.
Appreciate you as always. Love hearing impressions from an actual pro!
Great stuff bro... you always deliver!
Excited to see what you produce with this new camera!
Couldn't agree more with everything you said Matteo. I think all the hating on BMD after this product release is just people building their channels on shock and negative energy. Focus on the positives - we all have so much to be grateful for being small filmmakers in this era. There's not really anything to be whining about. This release from BMD is just breathtaking. They are now the leaders in this industry - other names may still be bigger, but they are setting the pace of innovation and thankfully, always putting the creative people right in the centre of their product ecosystem.
For me, there's no question, it's just a matter of time before I get these two cameras (Pyxis and Cine 12K) - and I'm super motivated to make that a reality.
Honestly, all the complains come from self proclaimed “filmmakers” that until yesterday were selling pans. They have no clue how to operate a camera unless they have IBIS. They have no idea how to pull focus unless they have auto focus. They watched 3 videos on TH-cam and claim they are filmmakers. I always tell people to check these guys portfolio and you’ll realize what they do for a living: they complain.
It’s impressive how people just complain and complain for stupid things. They just cried cried for the boxy hype shape they got it and still complain 🤦♂️. No AF no ND what’s the bid deal about it? Learn how to focus properly before getting your hand on a cinema camera.
No other brand can’t beat BM prices and technology inside their cams! I’ve seen people complaining about the side screen on the new PYXIS? Really what about and Alexa? You still need to add a second monitor or the EVF to film. What about the shitty tiny display of the Komodo? Cinematographers should be great full Blackmagic offers affordable and reliable cinema cameras. Always supporting all their cams with new updates all the time.
This cameras are amazing if you really now how to operate them properly. The PYXIS will be a great run n gun cam! Pair with that beautiful Viewfinder it’s just amazing.
Thank you Matteo for making this video clarifying people how badass of a company Blackmagic is!
People will still complain but it’s ok they don’t know. Keep shooting with your Sony’s
You gotta 🖤 BM 😎🎥
Also which other brand gives you a free license to IMO, the best color grading software on the planet for free. Insane!!! And yet people complain… bunch of amateurs.
Yes people have been wanting a box camera since BM has been making cameras. Yes people want ND built in because they already made cameras with it. And it's '24 and many companies are adapting to it. Yes people AF because repeat the point I just made. Yes komodo has a tiny pointless screen and no one liked it. So why copy it and slap it to the side?
People don't care about spending the bread if the features are all there so with BM being cheap is just them being desperate. 17k camera and Hollywood is still gonna past and use the $90k camera. BM image does not stad out from the pack in 2024. They will keep selling cheap because they know they cannot stand out from the pack image wise.
Great insight thank you! Totally agree, and your footage of the 6K Cine is mind blowing btw. I always tend to think that when many people complain about a product before it is released, it's the proof that the product is actually meaningful.
GREAT, thanks for sharing 😀
Well said Matteo! 🎬👍
BM better start sending the pyxis to persons like you so people will get an idea of the usage and capabilities. I believe the pro version of this will include nds for 500 eu more
I think he wants the new 12k. The Pyxis is already tested. You buy it if you need sdi, the ethernet conection or the form factor but the image quality is the same.
They have not mentioned a pro version.
Only thing I can do is talking about the body. There is already plenty of footage on my channel captured on that sensor :)
Very excited about the Pyxis 6k
It's good to hear some balanced impressions regarding the new BM cameras from someone who knows what he's talking about. I'm a long time Canon user & currently own the R5C which is a very capable camera and a joy to use. However looking at Matteo's footage there's no doubt the BM 6K produces beautiful images which have a unique look and amazing to be able get that quality for such a reasonable price. Really impressed with footage I've seen from the 12K URSA also. BM is bringing great innovation to the industry at affordable price points. A lot of negativity online seems to come from people who have never used a BM camera.
Hi Matteo, which monitor do you use to desqueeze 3:2 anamorphic footage. All the monitors I have seem to be confused with the aspect ratio and don’t fill the width of the screen. Cheers ☕️
Exactly! Well said man! Only thing that bothers me is that you can’t set a focus throw on the L mount lenses focused by wire - just impossible to follow focus. Hopefully will be a fix
Yes, was waiting for your video to hear your extended opinion.
been waiting for this one. would you recomment downloading the new beta update to main camera?
I was waiting for this review since the announcement
Good video and my brother and I appreciate your opinions. God bless you and have a great day.
if you could make a video about iso in which circumstances which iso is best to use on bmcc, that would be great!
Spot on as usual, Matteo. Great cameras from BM.
Finally 😂 I was dying to hear your take on this
I have a g85, the p4k still looks enticing. Assuming that blackmagic wont do anything with micro four thirds in the future, which system should i go to knowing ill have a totally different lenses set. Many folks say L mount while PL is used by many professionals in narrative work.
As always, look forward to your thoughts and footage.
One question: do you own the 12K S35 without OLPF or have you Upgraded after the OLPF Version was released?
I don't understand why Blackmagic stopped innovating for the past 10 years and only now releases a cube camera that no one wants or asked. Because all we need is a sphere camera !
😂 😂 😂
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Great assessment
Enjoyed the video. If you dont mind my asking, what glasses do you wear? I really dig them
To round out the product line refresh, BM will need to introduce what I think of as an Ursa Cine Jr. (rather than a Pyxis Pro-which will never be big enough for internal NDs). Perhaps this could include a next gen Bayer sensor with faster read out speeds, CFExpress only, big enough for internal NDs but no AC screen, and probably ships without the massive travel case to keep costs down.
100%. This is the camera I want
Internal eND could be added to a more expensive Pyxis body I think and that’s what I’d rather.
@@antone9751 That’s what everyone wants to think because of the Pocket 6K Pro. But the S35 sensor in the Pro is half the height and about a cm narrower than the 3:2 while the Pyxis body is a hair shorter and 3 inches narrower than the 6K Pro. By the time you stretch the ND glass to cover the sensor without causing shadows and add a framework for holding and moving an ND that size, you run out of space. There’s no place for the ND to go. So unless a supplier has come up with a perfectly clear electronic ND glass that doesn’t have to move, than it’s not going to happen. I’m not up on the latest materials science in that area, but the FX6 ND causes a 2 stop cut in light when in place and set to zero.
@@waveland I said eND, not traditional mechanical ND as that would be too large. eND is what they use in the Sony FX6 and are now using in the URSA Cine so hopefully now that BMD are using the tech, it might trickle down to a more expensive Pyxis body.
@@antone9751 The FX6 ND drops down below the sensor when not needed. Otherwise you would end up with 2 stops of permanent light loss. Look it up. There’s a mechanism which slides the ND into place and then you can dial up the intensity. And the new 12K ND system is like the one in the 6k Pro. It’s push button to activate but the two pieces of glass are at fixed amounts of ND. They are not electronic.
ill be getting this camera! thats for sure. even thought i would an articulating screen, i will still get this. i have no complaint. i just wish its there. but its fine.
Mateo, please tell me what adapter you use on a full-frame camera to use your Leica lenses? Are the lenses secure? Please share your thoughts on which mount you would choose when buying a Pyxis)))
Thank you, Matteo. Excellent work, as always. I use S35 glass and want to upgrade to either of the new L-mount options (BMCC6K or PYXIS L-mount). Did you upgrade your glass, or are you still using your S35 lenses on these new cameras? Thanks again, and keep up the excellent work.
He mainly uses Leica R‘s, which are made to cover full frame.
Leica Rs are FF glasses
@@matteobertoli Thank you.
I hope they give you an URSA Cine for all the support you showned the S35 12K URSA ;)
Great takes as always, Matteo!
My question to you would be, if you had to pick between the 6KCC vs Pyxis, which one would you go for?
BMCC6K because I have an Ursa
Hey Matteo! Do you know if there’s a possibility to turn the side screen completely off when using an external monitor? I want to get this new camera but kind of worried about side monitor draining the battery when not in use
No idea I don’t have the camera yet
@@matteobertoli Got you! Please let us know when you get your hands on it 🙌🏼
The thing I'm most excited about this bmpcc is the Ursa mini pro 12k man that's really crazy!❤
Good comments Matteo!
Its funny to read so many people complaining about side screen.
Its a cube modular camera we all wanted. Its purpose ise that you are supposed to build according to liking with external monitor.
That side screen is a BONUS, so that you dont miss out the amazing menu OS that Pocket cameras have. I wonder where else would these complainers put this screen without cannibalizing modularity aspect.
Remember how many Times I was saying “you’re gonna miss that monitor”?
Does it make sense to get an ursa g2, since they're the used price is the same as this new pixie? I've been looking for a second cam to pair with my 6k pro. I mainly do interviews, commercials & personal projects
...URSA G2 also has a variable Internal ND FILTER !
I was wondering, do you think the new viewfinder will work on the bmcc6k ff as well ? with the usb c connection?
Nope
Matteo, brother I’m not getting your notifications 📣😤🥺 great video 😍
Hi Matteo, thanks for this vid. I'm on the fence going into the BM ecosystem. How do you work around the low light capabilities with BM 6k and Pyxis? Your insight will be appreciated.
Low light is much better than the Sony IMO. At least you don’t have to push it to 12,800 iso and go around with NDs at night 😂
@@matteobertoli Thanks, saw your video on low light after posting the comment. The hype is so much for the Sony low light FX3
@@erikgouletphotoshooting at such high ISO is stupid. How Sony manages mixed color lights is terrible. On top of that that is just crazy noise reduction, not a 2nd iso
Out of all the TH-camrs.. Matteo is the only creator I was waiting to hear from about the PYXIS..
For someone that never work with blackmagic cameras, which one is a great start point?
BMCC6K FF is a very good camera. But if you entry this world and need a camera for production also the Pyxis with viewfinder
@@matteobertoli that’s great the BMCC6k is cheaper than this new one… thanks Matteo 🙏🏻
fun fact, the people who dropped 30k on a nurano are absolutely annoyed by the rolling shutter, and countless others have refrained from buying a burano altogether because of the rolling shutter.
Off topic - are you using any zoom lenses?
Not at the moment
@@matteobertoli cheers for the update. I was "fighting" between getting fully comfortable with my Meike MFT set for BMPCC4K OR switching to Metabones+Sigma 18-35. You know, no need to swap lenses, autofocus, laziness... Noticed you have it on your gear list that's why I'm asking.
Nailed it Matteo, people who complain about this stuff have no idea what they’re doing. Especially whining about 13 stops as if it’s not enough DR. These people would read Alexa Plus stats on a spreadsheet and say it sucks lol and we shot some great looking stuff together on it!
All the people who are complaining I'm very sure are Sony users who just create videos about the gear they use to make said videos like a never ending loop 🤣. If all the camera manufacturers removed AF and flip screen, TH-cam would loose 95% of its " content creators" or " filmmakers" most of them who couldn't film a decent video if their life depended on it. On a serious note if you know what you are doing then any modern camera is more than sufficient. Finally people will shut up now that they have a box shaped black magic camera which none of them will buy
I think it is time for me to pick up a used pocket 4k and finally try out Blackmagic cameras.
As a Pocket 6K owner, I can see the criticisms for folks who are mad that the Pyxis doesn't have X or Y features in it, personally, I am not bothered by it. The fact that they even made a boxed camera to begin with is a plus, but it's what the Cinema Camera 6K should've been released as to begin with, like they made this version begrudgingly. I don't care for the DSLR body style, especially the design Blackmagic has since it's way too big and bulky to really use rigged out, and the battery life is so bad without a rig that you can't really win. Having the FX6 battery with the PYXIS is a huge step up from all previous versions, and folks will be fine.
The URSA Cine line, on the other hand, looks to be a phenomenal next step in their line, especially the functions and usability, like the input of lens data in camera, a second monitor on the AC side, RS/Power for a follow focus built into the body, etc. Those to me are exciting. And the 65mm sensor they're developing in-house, could be a game changer now that we're beginning to get into shooting video with Medium Format sensors, (the OFG Custom 65 camera for example), giving us an opportunity to shoot with a --hopefully-- high quality camera that doesn't require us to go to ARRI Rental or IMAX to get. It does mean that companies will need a jump start on creating lenses for it.
The Pyxis pro or whatever the next ‘gen’ of it will be called will be fire…internal nd etc even if it’s a little bigger it will still be smaller than the ursa mini….ima wait for that🕐
What I haven’t heard about the audio setup. All I’ve seen is one mini XLR connector. The other thing is the dynamic range….I looked at CineD DR tests. The cinema 6k had about 11.8 stops of usable DR.
and something like a $2000 S5II had 12.3 stops usable. Maybe you don’t think that much about DR….the Pros and the industry sure does!
I think most people has issue with 13 stops is because it's a new camera in 2024 but still using a 6 year old sensor. I don't think it's blackmagic fault, Sony is their bottle neck, Blackmagic don't make their own sensor for their entry level camera. Alot of camera company like Nikon suffer because Sony will sell them older generation sensor (cheaper) to stay ahead of the game. I think Nikon did a huge step by acquiring RED for their sensor tech, so they can differentiate themselves.
That Ursa Cine.... in your hands... oh, man! I hope they send you one to test and review. I know if I'm going to be renting a camera for a big project, it's gonna be that one. That is, until I buy one, haha. Excellent insight, as always. I appreciate your ability to move past lower-tier complaining and non-pandering language with BMD products.
Hy is usra cine 12k better or arri alexa mini lf?
The Cine 12K is incredible, but I'm a little confused as to why people think the Pyxis is so incredible. Yes it's a box, but it's not a very small box. Why would you get this when you could get a BS1H, slap the video assist on it (you'll need an external monitor anyway for either camera) and still have Blackmagic raw. And that camera came out 3 years ago, and it has great autofocus and battery life. The Pyxis should have ditched the in-built screen and shipped with an external screen that can plug into one of the USB-C ports for monitoring and camera control, but still recorded Braw internally. And shrink it to BS1H size. That would have made it an amazing camera for rigging and gimbal work. As it stands now, you'd need a larger gimbal to accommodate it because it's too long and heavy. I only see this being a great camera for shoulder work, at which point get a used ursa mini 4.6K for the same price or less, and it will be far superior in many ways(unless you have to have full frame).
Blackmagic RAW is a codec. You’ll still have those terrible Panasonic colors.
these black magic camera s are just repackage pocket 4ks processors with different sensors added to them.
they use cheap tricks like cropping into the sensor, instead of down-sampling, to get lesser formats and more frame rates.
so, if you have some noises at open gate, you ll have big popcorn noises of the same image crop to 1080 for examlpe.
Black magic carmera s do have a good image given adequate lighting condition.
Blackmagic 6K Pro Pocket or Panasonic LUMIX S5IIx seem like a better value than the Pyxis for now.
Remember the first 12k was also 10k Euros at premier release.
I’ll agree that Sony dumbed down the Burano. But in regards to “I don’t hear anyone complaining” comment… I’ve heard a few Burano owners complaining about rolling shutter. And as for Red owners not complaining about a lack of internal NDs… well, I’m a long time Red owner, as such I’m formally lodging my complaint about the lack of internal NDs in Red cameras… So you can check that box. IMO, Sony should have used the sensor from the A9III in Burano… that sensor is awesome… I own it and I shoot with it.
The Cinema 6k has a 6 year old sensor. It’s the same sensor as the Sony A7III and the Sigma FP. The real world dynamic range is nowhere near 13 usable stops…. And I know, you know that. Most manufacturers inflate these numbers… Arri is the exception. B perhaps the more important number is exposure latitude? That’s what we need in post to lift shadows and pull down highlights. Interestingly, while the iPhone 15 Pro Max has a real world dynamic range of 13.4 stops, it only manages 5 stops of exposure latitude… which is why the footage is so brittle in post. The Cinema 6K is decent at 8 stop of exposure latitude… but fall short of the Red V-Raptor-X and Sony’s A9III which both retain a respectable 9 stops. The Arri Alexa 35 manages 12 stops!
That said, I don’t feel that dynamic range or exposure latitude are the real issues with this sensor. The real problem is others of suggested is the rolling shutter., which is actually quite bad. And while DaVinci Resolve can compensate for rolling shutter created by camera motion, it cannot compensate for rolling shutter caused by movement of objects in front of the camera. Another problem comes from the use of anamorphic lenses the feature a lot of character… such as barrel distortion. Because any motion related lens distortion will be further amplified by a slow rolling shutter. Worst still was the glowing of that high resolution monitor to the operator side of the camera. That makes no sense no matter how you look at it. A first AC, could not possibly utilize that monitor the way it is fixed to the camera. And the camera operator themselves also cannot utilize that monitor to frame the scenes. It’s just a bad design. Initially, I was excited, thinking Blackmagic would put out a camera with a fast rolling shutter and a box design. I thought they would include built in NDs… since they had removed them from the Cinema 6K… but alas, they botched it.
I've been thinking the same thing about the Sony Burano. Spending $25K and having that kind of rolling shutter is a joke. What Blackmagic has given us at this price point is amazing.
25K plus taxes
Something tells me that the Pyxis will have a great success for top movies… Because in a movie with $200M+ budget, a $3k camera could be considered as a “crash camera” just like they did use 5D Mark II at some point… here it’s a box camera, so very easy to setup the way you want (mounted on a car for a pursuit, you won’t care if the camera get destroyed by accident…. Not something you might willing to do with a $50k+ camera).
I am completely blown away that the new 12k cine camera is only $15k.
Changing the game till we buy it
Not t mention that an k raw can hold an incredible amount of braw data.
All I wanted is this pixyis, but with better writing speed and slo-mo, even if it was 2000$ more expensive.
Isn't it too early to call it a game changer? It's nice that they listened to people and provided a box camera. But the lack of ND filters is what makes me not take this camera too seriously at the moment. But I'd love to see the first image tests from Pyxis
Who said the Pyxis is a game changer? The Ursa Cine is. First images? I think you’re a bit confused. That is the exact same sensor of the BMCC6K FF. Plenty of footage on my channel :)
@@matteobertoli I assumed that you were talking about both cameras - because of the title "changing the game" I don't know why you assumed that I would be confused - I know Blackmagic cameras well and I know this a Pyxis have same sensor of the BMCC6K FF. I wrote that I want to see the picture, not that I am critical of what this is the camera will be able to. My only complaint is the lack of a ND filter
Come on Mateo… don’t get on the hand held mic trend. Just clip it. An extra 2 min. Let the trend die. Please. Please.
BM is doing good!
The what? 🤔
Signore... good thoughts as always but what's this rolling Sutter eliminating trick with the gyro data? Premiere has a pretty decent tool for that and I always missed it from Resolve. Could you pls shed a tad more light on this? Much appreciated, thanks!
BM cameras record gyro data inside BRAW, Resolve can use that to apply a motion effect counteracting the rolling shutter in post.
That I gathered so far, it’s the how exactly I am interested in. But thanks anyway!
@@azazattila what “how” are you interested in specifically?
@@nicholasgerwitzdp Hey Nick, I looked it up, not too much info though but I found a useful explanation so it’s all good now. Btw I am gobsmacked that practically nobody, not even BM puts this out in the window. 🤷♂️🤦♂️
The complainers online highlights how spoiled we all are and how people will literally complain about anything.
I think if you get a URSA Mini 12k and a Pyxis you're good for a long time. Also the image out of a BM camera is amazing. My hope is for BM to get a bigger foothold in the professional industry. That image and color is brilliant.
People are using FF BM for making reels & TH-cam videos , If it's gonna use for a feature film project what resolution & aspect ratio will be perfect with low noise bcause i noticed some people says if you capture in 4kDCI noise will raise up and the file size lower than 4k pocket cam . link here th-cam.com/video/sQW65hc2Lmw/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgxxyG-wBplDhd7T-bl4AaABAg.A2lQvEycChpA2m2JnDKrIS Any thought?
Choose the best acronym for PYXIS keeping 13 stop dynamic range in mind. Reply in comment
1. Perhaps You'll X-perience Image Sadness.
2. Purely Yet X-traordinarily Ineffective System.
3. Pathetically Yielding X-clusively Illogical Scenes
4. Please Yield - Xtremely Inferior Sight.
5. Pretends to Yield X-cellent Images, Sike!
6. Pointlessly Yielding Xero Image Success.
7. Permanently Yielding X-clusively Insufficient Shots
8. Probably Your X-worst Investment in Sightseeing.
It's true, you just don't need more dynamic range. I mean, more is always better but you just don't need it.
Hey which is better arri alexa mini lf or usra cine 12k
People will bitch about literally anything
I think some people think they sound knowledgeable.
I have no idea why there is so much hate around the only brand that gives you arri quality images for an insanely cheap price. These guys just brought IMAX (the real one) to the masses 😂
@@matteobertoli folks who aren't out actually creating anything have all the time in the world to find fault and write about anything and everything that crosses their pea brains. zero filter.
people asking for 13 stops are all Mediocre, mostly Amateur with no expirence
People have some kind of sickness. Its just a different camera. It's always going to have trade offs.
if it's not 16 bit then its not changing the game at all. It would be great if blackmagic made a 16 bit camera which can compete with Arri Sony and Red
This is another stupid thing like 13 stops of DR. BRAW is stored in 12bit and expanded to 16bit in Resolve. With that said I bet my house you can’t tell the difference between 12 and 16 bit even on a 2000” monitor.
@@matteobertoli it's expanded in resolve but is there any information stored in the expanded bits? I'm not sure, and my hunch is that there isn't. There is definitely a noticeable difference between capturing at 12 and 16 bit. As far as dynamic range .. a lot of the specs are a smidge over reported in my experience. Still the higher end cameras are giving you 15 stops (although they say 17) which I believe is more than film could give.
The bit depth does really make a difference.
I don’t get how people can Love BM cameras. Are they super cheap or what?
Still no continouse AF
Oh no!!!!
Oh don't bring the Burano into this, those owners are bitter as hell.
One thing I've learned from Blackamgic Design is that most people are bunch of cry babies and will never be happy.
Also do you know anyone at all that wants 12K?? BM offering 12k some years ago was a brain fart they haven't backed down from.