Great video! This is definitely something that is near and dear to my heart because as I’ve gone from 95 kg around June of this year to 85 kg at my current weight I’ve noticed a big difference in my ability to perform in the stronger races. Within that time I’ve been able to now I keep up in the 350 to 520 ZRS group but also feel like I can be competitive.
Again...Road to A gets an A++ Video!!! Your videos are the Best in my opinion...Other TH-camrs just want to have repeated videos of finishing in top 3 of races which gets boring viewing...Your videos are more informative..Myself by chance and not really trying I checked my weight and the last 3 weeks I went from 174 pounds to 169. I think getting a single speed steel bike and rotating with my 15 pound Giant propel and Tarmac Sl6 both rim brakes has helped my riding and power numbers while lowering weight. Riding 14 mph on my single speed steel bike I push more than going 20mph on my carbon fiber bikes.
I don't disagree, as mine are just pushing TT races, but we are all on a different journey. Bottom line W/Kg only matters on climbing routes compared to raw watts on the flat.
For this topic. The point in real world is sometimes people try to unrealistically lose weight aiming to get higher w/kg while in reality they also lose muscle, lose ftp and getting unhealthy or bonking in a high intensity race with not enough food. When you ride generally on flat or rolling hills or TT, rider will always do better with higher raw power so even its the same w/kg they will always win the skinny guy.
This is a key point. There has been a big move away from the weight obsession in cycling, especially if you're not competing to win a tour mountain stage. Likely to be stronger, more resilient and properly fuelled for training, racing and life in general.
@@CycleXplorer I think there is still merit to those discussions if you have extra body fat to lose (which is my case). If you are at low BF, pushing the weight down even further is likely detrimental.
@@RhettCrowell thank you very much! I'll do also a similar themed sequel but instead of doing flat power I will fo flat w/kg. Should be interesting, too!
Very good video and explanation! - the "counting sound effect" is a bit on the high side tho :) As a heavy rider (168cm/~89Kg) i really struggle with climbs. I havnt dared attack A D Z yet but its definately on the TODO list.
Depends on the context. I'm 125kg, but it's not all lean, so FTP of 250 is only 2w/kg. I can hold 1400w for around 10s, but that's so anaerobic, it shoots the my HR to max as my body recovers via the aerobic system for the next 20-30 seconds or so.
Interesting video but I don't think the real word race results are quite the same as this would suggest...Why? Because of drafting... This helps skinny riders keep up on the descents but it also helps genuinely bigger riders do a lower (relative to FTP) power zone on the flat. If the watts required to hold the wheel in the bunch are say, 200, then that could be Z2 for a 100kg, 3w/kg rider. For a 70kg, 3w/kg rider, that could be Sweetspot! At any given w/kg, it is ALWAYS beneficial, even (counterintuitively) on climbs, to be bigger and more powerful (there are great articles and vids out there explaining why that is so but from memory, I think it is partly to do with the system weight inc bike and clothes). Then you have the difference between lapped courses, where the net elevation gain is zero ft and the bigger riders do regain some of the extra power needed on the climbs back on the descents and the 'afterparty'' or point to point races where the elevation gain could be vast by the time you reach the finish. Then you have the other point about "weight doping" on Zwift where, it is only really an advantage to lower your weight in Cat A! In the other categories, it is actually a loophole to INCREASE your weight as your fitness improves and thus game the Category boundaries to stay a (literally) Big Fish in a small pond. Obviously the new Cat numbering system helps a little although raising your weight as you get fitter is still a way to perform 'worse' and hold your spot at the middle of a competitive category rather than get a forced upgrade to one where you will be pack fodder.
That's really an excellently written feedback, I love discussions like those! I need to think about what you've written for a bit as you clearly put a lot of effort into the post! For the time being, I agree with something, disagree with something and mostly agree with something. But I really need to run it through my head.
Very interesting video! One explanation for the flat could be the rolling resistance. The rolling resistance is load multiplied with rolling resistance factor. So when the total weight goes up with 10% so does the rolling resistance. This is a small one compared with aero but still significant.
Thanks for the content. May I challenge you to consider another weight comparison? I think watts per kilogram is the proper metric to be testing. So, take 3.0 w/kg as your target level. Compare a 90 kg rider (a lot of C cat male riders) to a 60 kg rider (a lot of C cat ladies) - holding 3.0 w/kg respectively. So you’ll have to hold 270 watts for the 90kg test and 180 watts for the 60 kg test. Given that ladies racing are highly misrepresented and they have to race in mixed events for the most part, I believe this test would support a much wider audience. Just a thought.
Overall good work, but here's where it falls apart. As a light weight rider on zwift, I am at a disadvantage at all times except long climbs. On the flat, you showed the power being equal, but the watts per kilogram favor the heavier rider. If I'm (a65kg rider) riding against or with someone who is 80kg, and they're doing 320w, they're holding 4wkg. My equivalent power output is only 260w. I will be dropped doing 260w. I need to hold closer to 310w to stay with them. That's closer to 4.8wkg. On descents, most people, especially heavier riders, aren't putting out 200w. They coast. Meanwhile, in downhill sections of races with 80kg riders, I will have to do 300w to stay with the heavier riders while they're coasting. These descents often come right after climbs, so I've got to keep my power up while others are resting. Zwift disproportionately punishes people who are truly lightweight riders. In the real world, I can really keep with much larger riders while doing my equivalent power. Similarly, on fast descents, I can stay with bigger rides by simply getting extremely small on the bike.
@@Cat3ForLife two things here: 1) My next test is going to be similar but with the same wkg to see exactly that effect. 2) the purpose of this video wasn't convince anyone that Zwift works like real life riding does. It's just to show how it actually works.
@@RoadtoA Totally. Again, I think it's a good idea. But altering your weight in Zwift to match numbers is definitely not representative of what us lightweights actually feel. I'll constantly jump into group rides to do my active recovery days. The advertised pace is 2wkg. I'll end up averaging 2.8-3.2 wkg because my 65 kg power output compared to a group of 80-90kg riders puts me at a HUGE disadvantage. The same is true in racing. Just swapping out your numbers won't bear that out for you. Not sure what your weight is - you look on the smaller side as well. I'm happy to do a collab video with you on the very subject if it would help.
I hear you. As a heavier rider (78kg) I have dropped light weight riders while coasting steep descents when they are doing >3.5w/kg in a B race. But here is the rub: total time at power and climbing momentum. Climbing a hill takes much longer than a descent. A heavier rider also doesn't have as much forgiveness when climbing than smaller riders - smaller riders carry more momentum when they ease off the power than a heavier rider during the fluctuations of power during a climb. Therefore, a heavier rider will most likely need to maintain a higher avg w/kg over a climb than a lighter rider. The steeper/ longer the climb the worse it gets. You gotta drop the heavy riders on the climb. Expert climbers will surge at times to drop the heavys. If the heavy can match you on the climb, they are stronger than you overall and youre probably already beat.
This assumes that being heavier gives you more power. There's definitely some correlation, but the size and shape of competitive riders indicates that unless that extra weight is all in leg muscle, it's not useful for cycling. A big(ish) belly full of calories (fat) can help on endurance races, but modern fueling strategies can entirely negate this potential endurance advantage.
This test is only applicable on iTT. Heavier riders get bigger watts savings in the draft, so they can rest more when pace is high. Just look at "quarter ton activities" and his draft watts savings in S4Z. Also just adding fat mass and 0 muscle weight is also not realistic scenario. Of course a lighter rider with same muscle weight as a heavier rider will be faster, but typically for trained athletes, heavier persons also have higher muscle weight. Most often I see ppl compare light well trained athletes with heavier not so trained athletes and everyone automatically thinks it is much easier to be lighter. For zwift 30-50 min races, weight is not as dominant factor as in outdoor road cycling for many hours. RaceIQ is by far most important, more than power, or weight.
2:42 this is very interesting, because usually what it said is that the heavier riders will hold a better momentum on flats, but obviously as you’ve shown being a lighter rider you’re going to perform better on flat terrain
@@SteakandChains they will hold better momentum if they stop pedalling. But at those speeds the aero is king. Now, whether the Zwift aero coefficient is correct for the weight scaling, that's hard to tell. I'd say it's perhaps a little too aggressive.
In my opinion, as a 92kg rider on the flat in real life, your momentum plays much more a part in overall speed. I tend to creep to the front of packs when it flattens out occasionally breaking trains up, but I fall way behind on hills.
@ the same thing will happen in Zwift, but given the way, the test was carried out all things being equal the lighter rider performed better. Even at my current weight, I drift up to the front all the time.
Since position in the pack depends on the raw watts, it's another factor that makes life as lightweight harder. I constantly get shuffled to the side and eventually out of the draft unless I do occasionally sink'n sprint to get new position, that burns matches, while some can just sit and rest in the bunch. Heavier riders have no idea how lighter riders gets pushed aside by the Zwift algorithm. The pack position should be wkg instead of raw watts imo, but then the opposite would happen
Could you please perform simliar test but this time concerning TRAINING DIFFCULTY parameter? How does it affect your time depending on what setting was selected.
@@marcin.jasicki It doesn't affect results. You still need to produce the same watts to develop the same speed. It only adjusts how does a hill feel (so at 50% trainer difficulty, 10% hill feels like a 5% hill but you still need to produce the same watts to go the same speed). With higher trainer difficulty, you need to shift more often and your efficiency (or a lack of thereof) potentially impacts your results.
@@RoadtoA I thought that how we are feeling hill depends on amount of watts that we need to produce. At the very beginning of my Zwift experience I was not aware that training difficulty parameter exist. Some 20% hill in Richmond was extremely easy to reach even though I was not powerfull as I am at this moment. Currently my setting is always at 100% and to be honset this Richmond 20% hill is very demanding in spite that I managed to boost my FTP for about 25%. I am still not 100% sure that riding using 50% training diffculty is not some kind of way to make Zwift easier.
I'm 125kg and did AdZ as part of Tour of Watopia last week. 2hr15 all in. Heaviest person listed on zwiftpower for the event, but higher absolute power than a lot of others. Put me on Tempus Fugit and I can hold my own, and can get top 10 in sprints of 40s or less. Ultimately W/kg I find matters on any route with hills, and being faster on descents doesn't make up for the slow climbs. In races, it's too easy to lose the pack on climbs.
I can imagine you are a sprinting monster! If this video is successful I am going to do a sequel where I do a similar test with W/kg (but perhaps on different routes to keep it fresh).
69kg and around natural body weight alp time 46.06 how often do I do that. Even at my weight the decents are an issue. I ride with top tier B and low A no problem seriously considering putting 3 to 4kg of muscle on think the gains will more than make up for loses
The question on my mind is how Swift applied their algorithm to make the difference. They probably have several working together to simulate rider weight, aerodynamic drag, fancy gear performance etc. The second worry is if everyone is honest about their numnbers when they sign up for a race.
Great video. I would be interested to see the difference between 70 and 80 kg at the same W/Kg. Like each run is at 2.85 W/Kg. 70Kg rider at 200W, but the 80Kg rider at 230W. Would the times be almost exact?
I have been looking at my ZRS with one eye on my weight ( as I have been bitching about my ZRS since it came out ) when I first started racing I was at 85. KG but since 20th October my weight has been recorded at 90kg. So basically my ZRS was calculated at 85.3kg but since it has been released I have been carrying an extra 4.7kg which according to you will impact my finishes by over a minute in most races. Guess I'll have to try and get my weight back on track.
@@RoadtoA Yeah change to lifestyle, and having 1 hour each day where I have been having to wait around with nothing to do has led to binge eating through boredom.
@@talonlan oh so you actually gained the weight? i thought the program switched it for you. Then I take back the hilarious part. Though I know what you mean, my weight has increased too in the recent months.
Weight definitely plays big part, but there are heavier pro riders that have tried losing weight but that also brought their power numbers down significantly. It all depends what sort of riding you do. If you are pure climber, keen your weight low. If you are leaning more towards domestique or sprinter keep building those leg muscles! Other side is 100+kg riders that will benefit greatly from losing weight. Thanks for the video, good data.
We'll see. The next part is a similar test with w/kg instead of pure watts. But maybe there can be part 3? That said, height is not something that is actionable, do even if there's a meaningful difference, would such test bring any value?
@RoadtoA nice idea for part 2. My guess would be that height only affects in-game aerodynamics, which in the game isn't really actionable, other than staying in a bunch, or super tuck on descents, but in rhe real world it is something actionable, so I'm just curious how much of a disadvantage taller people have in Zwift 🤷🏻♂️... In the real world you can be big, but you can still achieve a lower CdA than a smaller person in some scenarios. Whereas with weight, a lighter person will always be lighter.
@ I'll see what the response to the second video will be. If people like it, I am happy to do part 3 (then again, if not, I wouldn't probably bother, as I need to do 8 rides separatly so the production of such video is pretty time consuming).
@@CycleWithMatts Being 15 kg less you should have a huge advantage to those riders but if I remember correcty you said under one of the previous videos you are 15, right? That means a lot of your strength is still developing.
But if you had 75kg you would get dropped by the same riders, also with more weight you also have bigger silhouette and with that comes more wind drag...
Very interesting and I agree the flat result is unexpected. When I got back into riding I lost 9 kg (80 -> 71) without trying in the first 6 months, then I slowly got back up to around 74 kg yet my performance kept improving. Wish I could have measured body fat through this process.
Tohle je hodně zajímavé téma... zvlášť pak když se mi váha během roku mění o 10 kg ... jde to hodně poznat v realu... (na rovině ne :) natož pak ve zwiftu :)
@@intox43 Tak v reálu tam vstupují ještě další faktory jako vítr, povrch, tlak v pneumatikách a tak. Ale těch 10 kg už je dost extrémní, pro většinu lidí bude relevantní fluktuace tak 3-5. Ale víš jak, kolik toho musíš natrénovat, aby ses za hodinu zlepšil o minutu a půl...:-)
Your weight when you are already fit without extra body fat will give you more power/watts when you gain muscles and vs versra so it ready depends on what type of ride your strvie to be. You can't be a climber and a sprinter and the same time if you’re an A rider.
Yep! This is definitely way more relevant to people with extra weight in terms of body fat. If you are already on low body fat then it is really up to what kind of rider do you want to be.
Now you want to do the same tests but with the riders both having the same WPKG as the heavier rider generally will have the higher FTP.........100KG with 300ftp v 70Kg with 210FTP......
@@TychoVelo I knew it plays a role, didn't know it played a big one. I'll see if I can figure out a test that makes sense! (And first I need to study how it works.)
What weight were you when you carried out the test? If you were 80 kg then no wonder the 70kg was quicker. I'm a 59kg rider and zwift is not realistic when climbing as compared to real life, gravity isn't taken into account. I know this from riding and racing with the same people on zwift and real life
@RoadtoA because of you were 80 kg and reduced zwift weight to 70kg, then you have the power of a 80 kg rider pushing 200 watts. If both are set at 200 watts the 70 kg rider will have a higher wkg and go faster. It would the difference between C cat and say B cat for example. Maybe I've missed something so apologies if I have?
@ gotcha. The point of this test was to compare how does weight influence riding performance when riding the same absolute watts. But yesterday I released another video that compared riding at the same w/kg, sounds like that's what you are looking for.;) What's REALLY Going On with Your WEIGHT on Zwift? th-cam.com/video/lOcFS7FkXro/w-d-xo.html
@RoadtoA what is your view on lighter riders not getting the advantage they should on the climb's? I'm getting beaten up hills by riders in the same cat, which I'm at the top end of and they are 20 kg heavier.
@@dalewilliams2069 I think this is a problem that should get eventually solved by the new Racing Score. But it is to be expected if you are not competing at the very top level (if you are putting 200w as a 50 kg rider for example, you can absolutely expect someone who is 75 kg outputting 300w - that's a reasonable expectation).
@ That will be an interesting video! Then the question becomes what is the point at which a heavier rider can no longer sustain the same watts per kilo as a lighter rider for an hour or more both as the riders weight increases or pushing more watts per kilo.
I am a 66kg rider. Most races are mostly flat. I have ZERO chances to win. I need to put so many more watts in BOTH flat terrain AND even more donwill. A 75kg rider could be resting at 1.5wkg and i would have to push over 3 wkg to keep on in a descent. Once i am at the end of it i get on a flat and he STILL has an advantage. Even in his draft oi have to put down 1wkg more to stay stuck to him. I usually am amoung the top 10 in wkg and i always get OBLITERATED on regular races. The same applies in real life with teams hidding their climbers. This does not happen on zwift. You're exposed and by yourself. As such, average weight riders have the advantage in this game as no light roder will ever benegit enoough from climbs to get back the time he has lost.
What is the value of this test - except for demonstrating the effect of weight cheating? If you weigh more for real, you will most likely also produce more power.
@@sverreamrani53 true, but the the effect of such power "increase" is different on different terrain. And that's the purpose of this video. FWIW, I plan to also explore the other side of things - ride the same w/kg on different terrain to see the effect on that.
@@RoadtoA Yeah, that is more to the core of it. However, what I was hoping (?) - was that you did all out tests on different terrains "today" at your current weight - and beefed up 5 kg - and then retested. So.. but I am probably just a grouchy old man today :).
@@sverreamrani53 while probably more entertaining, I wouldn't say that all out tests would be a good way to perform those tests - there's way more variables that go into all out performance that could skew the results. That's why I picked the power that I can hold pretty much indefinetly.
@@RoadtoA Will always be "noise" in such tests - but I think all of us already know the effects of just varying the kg in Zwift - and also how w/kg have different impacts on varying terrain. So - what would be new and ground breaking in a zwift researching context, would be all out tests - with a fit 70 kg RoadtoA and a fit 75 kg RoadtoA.
There is a problem with this and that is if you have more weight you can push more watts on the flat and climbs that are not to steep so that makes you faster. I am light so I can climb on steep climbs faster than heavier riders and see this all the time when I race as I look on Zwiftpower. after the races to see the profiles. So keeping to the same wattage does not show this point.
Great video! This is definitely something that is near and dear to my heart because as I’ve gone from 95 kg around June of this year to 85 kg at my current weight I’ve noticed a big difference in my ability to perform in the stronger races. Within that time I’ve been able to now I keep up in the 350 to 520 ZRS group but also feel like I can be competitive.
@@SteakandChains awesome dude!
Again...Road to A gets an A++ Video!!! Your videos are the Best in my opinion...Other TH-camrs just want to have repeated videos of finishing in top 3 of races which gets boring viewing...Your videos are more informative..Myself by chance and not really trying I checked my weight and the last 3 weeks I went from 174 pounds to 169. I think getting a single speed steel bike and rotating with my 15 pound Giant propel and Tarmac Sl6 both rim brakes has helped my riding and power numbers while lowering weight. Riding 14 mph on my single speed steel bike I push more than going 20mph on my carbon fiber bikes.
@@jeffcreed365 thank you very much Jeff, you are very kind.
I don't disagree, as mine are just pushing TT races, but we are all on a different journey. Bottom line W/Kg only matters on climbing routes compared to raw watts on the flat.
Great videos man, you put a lot of work and care into them and it shows! This is a really interesting topic
@@jamesengelsma3 thank you very much mate!
For this topic. The point in real world is sometimes people try to unrealistically lose weight aiming to get higher w/kg while in reality they also lose muscle, lose ftp and getting unhealthy or bonking in a high intensity race with not enough food. When you ride generally on flat or rolling hills or TT, rider will always do better with higher raw power so even its the same w/kg they will always win the skinny guy.
@@benjapolcycling yep!
This is a key point. There has been a big move away from the weight obsession in cycling, especially if you're not competing to win a tour mountain stage. Likely to be stronger, more resilient and properly fuelled for training, racing and life in general.
@@CycleXplorer I think there is still merit to those discussions if you have extra body fat to lose (which is my case). If you are at low BF, pushing the weight down even further is likely detrimental.
This was a very, very good video. It is fact based and cannot be disputed! Thank you for taking the time and effort to share this information.
@@RhettCrowell thank you very much! I'll do also a similar themed sequel but instead of doing flat power I will fo flat w/kg. Should be interesting, too!
@@RoadtoA What is the title of that certain video?
@@RhettCrowell not sure yet
Very good video and explanation! - the "counting sound effect" is a bit on the high side tho :) As a heavy rider (168cm/~89Kg) i really struggle with climbs. I havnt dared attack A D Z yet but its definately on the TODO list.
@@kimpedersen thank you very much! i'll tone down the sound effects next time!
Usually heavier riders also put out more raw watts. Raw watts is king on Zwift. Try the same set of tests done at 3 wkg instead.
If this video is successful, that's going to be the sequel.:-)
Put out more watts but get gassed after 20 mins into the ride.
Depends on the context. I'm 125kg, but it's not all lean, so FTP of 250 is only 2w/kg. I can hold 1400w for around 10s, but that's so anaerobic, it shoots the my HR to max as my body recovers via the aerobic system for the next 20-30 seconds or so.
What if you’re fat and weak haha
@@Remcofu then your only way is up!
Interesting video but I don't think the real word race results are quite the same as this would suggest...Why? Because of drafting... This helps skinny riders keep up on the descents but it also helps genuinely bigger riders do a lower (relative to FTP) power zone on the flat. If the watts required to hold the wheel in the bunch are say, 200, then that could be Z2 for a 100kg, 3w/kg rider. For a 70kg, 3w/kg rider, that could be Sweetspot! At any given w/kg, it is ALWAYS beneficial, even (counterintuitively) on climbs, to be bigger and more powerful (there are great articles and vids out there explaining why that is so but from memory, I think it is partly to do with the system weight inc bike and clothes).
Then you have the difference between lapped courses, where the net elevation gain is zero ft and the bigger riders do regain some of the extra power needed on the climbs back on the descents and the 'afterparty'' or point to point races where the elevation gain could be vast by the time you reach the finish.
Then you have the other point about "weight doping" on Zwift where, it is only really an advantage to lower your weight in Cat A! In the other categories, it is actually a loophole to INCREASE your weight as your fitness improves and thus game the Category boundaries to stay a (literally) Big Fish in a small pond.
Obviously the new Cat numbering system helps a little although raising your weight as you get fitter is still a way to perform 'worse' and hold your spot at the middle of a competitive category rather than get a forced upgrade to one where you will be pack fodder.
That's really an excellently written feedback, I love discussions like those!
I need to think about what you've written for a bit as you clearly put a lot of effort into the post!
For the time being, I agree with something, disagree with something and mostly agree with something. But I really need to run it through my head.
Very interesting video! One explanation for the flat could be the rolling resistance. The rolling resistance is load multiplied with rolling resistance factor. So when the total weight goes up with 10% so does the rolling resistance. This is a small one compared with aero but still significant.
@@karelvanoorschot9323 Good point, thank you!
Thanks for the content. May I challenge you to consider another weight comparison? I think watts per kilogram is the proper metric to be testing. So, take 3.0 w/kg as your target level. Compare a 90 kg rider (a lot of C cat male riders) to a 60 kg rider (a lot of C cat ladies) - holding 3.0 w/kg respectively. So you’ll have to hold 270 watts for the 90kg test and 180 watts for the 60 kg test. Given that ladies racing are highly misrepresented and they have to race in mixed events for the most part, I believe this test would support a much wider audience. Just a thought.
@@DanLehmann you mean something like this? ;)
th-cam.com/video/lOcFS7FkXro/w-d-xo.html
Overall good work, but here's where it falls apart. As a light weight rider on zwift, I am at a disadvantage at all times except long climbs. On the flat, you showed the power being equal, but the watts per kilogram favor the heavier rider. If I'm (a65kg rider) riding against or with someone who is 80kg, and they're doing 320w, they're holding 4wkg. My equivalent power output is only 260w. I will be dropped doing 260w. I need to hold closer to 310w to stay with them. That's closer to 4.8wkg.
On descents, most people, especially heavier riders, aren't putting out 200w. They coast. Meanwhile, in downhill sections of races with 80kg riders, I will have to do 300w to stay with the heavier riders while they're coasting. These descents often come right after climbs, so I've got to keep my power up while others are resting.
Zwift disproportionately punishes people who are truly lightweight riders.
In the real world, I can really keep with much larger riders while doing my equivalent power. Similarly, on fast descents, I can stay with bigger rides by simply getting extremely small on the bike.
Perfectly put. As a 62kg rider it’s the down hills I dread in Zwift races.
@@Cat3ForLife two things here:
1) My next test is going to be similar but with the same wkg to see exactly that effect.
2) the purpose of this video wasn't convince anyone that Zwift works like real life riding does. It's just to show how it actually works.
@@RoadtoA Totally. Again, I think it's a good idea. But altering your weight in Zwift to match numbers is definitely not representative of what us lightweights actually feel. I'll constantly jump into group rides to do my active recovery days. The advertised pace is 2wkg. I'll end up averaging 2.8-3.2 wkg because my 65 kg power output compared to a group of 80-90kg riders puts me at a HUGE disadvantage. The same is true in racing. Just swapping out your numbers won't bear that out for you. Not sure what your weight is - you look on the smaller side as well. I'm happy to do a collab video with you on the very subject if it would help.
I hear you. As a heavier rider (78kg) I have dropped light weight riders while coasting steep descents when they are doing >3.5w/kg in a B race. But here is the rub: total time at power and climbing momentum. Climbing a hill takes much longer than a descent. A heavier rider also doesn't have as much forgiveness when climbing than smaller riders - smaller riders carry more momentum when they ease off the power than a heavier rider during the fluctuations of power during a climb. Therefore, a heavier rider will most likely need to maintain a higher avg w/kg over a climb than a lighter rider. The steeper/ longer the climb the worse it gets. You gotta drop the heavy riders on the climb. Expert climbers will surge at times to drop the heavys. If the heavy can match you on the climb, they are stronger than you overall and youre probably already beat.
This assumes that being heavier gives you more power.
There's definitely some correlation, but the size and shape of competitive riders indicates that unless that extra weight is all in leg muscle, it's not useful for cycling.
A big(ish) belly full of calories (fat) can help on endurance races, but modern fueling strategies can entirely negate this potential endurance advantage.
very helpful and motivating, merci!
thank you, there's a sequel if you didn't see it yet! :)
Very interesting results. Thank you for your dedeication losing and gaining all of that weight to do this test.
I am not sure if I didn't miss the joke here but to clarify - I didn't gain and lose the weight, just set different weight in the game. ;)
Thank you so much. I'll find out and watch!
This test is only applicable on iTT. Heavier riders get bigger watts savings in the draft, so they can rest more when pace is high. Just look at "quarter ton activities" and his draft watts savings in S4Z. Also just adding fat mass and 0 muscle weight is also not realistic scenario. Of course a lighter rider with same muscle weight as a heavier rider will be faster, but typically for trained athletes, heavier persons also have higher muscle weight. Most often I see ppl compare light well trained athletes with heavier not so trained athletes and everyone automatically thinks it is much easier to be lighter. For zwift 30-50 min races, weight is not as dominant factor as in outdoor road cycling for many hours. RaceIQ is by far most important, more than power, or weight.
I don't disagree, I just wanted to show how Zeift reacts to different weight.;)
i feel that the outcome from this video can be: lose fat, no the kilograms itself.
@ spot on!:) there's going to be a second part of the video where the outcome/message will be more clear
2:42 this is very interesting, because usually what it said is that the heavier riders will hold a better momentum on flats, but obviously as you’ve shown being a lighter rider you’re going to perform better on flat terrain
@@SteakandChains they will hold better momentum if they stop pedalling. But at those speeds the aero is king. Now, whether the Zwift aero coefficient is correct for the weight scaling, that's hard to tell. I'd say it's perhaps a little too aggressive.
In my opinion, as a 92kg rider on the flat in real life, your momentum plays much more a part in overall speed. I tend to creep to the front of packs when it flattens out occasionally breaking trains up, but I fall way behind on hills.
@ the same thing will happen in Zwift, but given the way, the test was carried out all things being equal the lighter rider performed better. Even at my current weight, I drift up to the front all the time.
Since position in the pack depends on the raw watts, it's another factor that makes life as lightweight harder. I constantly get shuffled to the side and eventually out of the draft unless I do occasionally sink'n sprint to get new position, that burns matches, while some can just sit and rest in the bunch. Heavier riders have no idea how lighter riders gets pushed aside by the Zwift algorithm. The pack position should be wkg instead of raw watts imo, but then the opposite would happen
Could you please perform simliar test but this time concerning TRAINING DIFFCULTY parameter? How does it affect your time depending on what setting was selected.
@@marcin.jasicki Do you mean trainer difficulty, as in the percentage you set in the settings?
@RoadtoA Excatlly. I was searching for objective test to clarify how this setting reflectes to time results and power output.
@@marcin.jasicki It doesn't affect results. You still need to produce the same watts to develop the same speed. It only adjusts how does a hill feel (so at 50% trainer difficulty, 10% hill feels like a 5% hill but you still need to produce the same watts to go the same speed).
With higher trainer difficulty, you need to shift more often and your efficiency (or a lack of thereof) potentially impacts your results.
@@RoadtoA
Exactly. Physiologically, it's important how watts are generated.
@@RoadtoA I thought that how we are feeling hill depends on amount of watts that we need to produce. At the very beginning of my Zwift experience I was not aware that training difficulty parameter exist. Some 20% hill in Richmond was extremely easy to reach even though I was not powerfull as I am at this moment. Currently my setting is always at 100% and to be honset this Richmond 20% hill is very demanding in spite that I managed to boost my FTP for about 25%. I am still not 100% sure that riding using 50% training diffculty is not some kind of way to make Zwift easier.
Great video.
@@RyanCondon Thank you very much Ryan!
I'm 125kg and did AdZ as part of Tour of Watopia last week. 2hr15 all in. Heaviest person listed on zwiftpower for the event, but higher absolute power than a lot of others. Put me on Tempus Fugit and I can hold my own, and can get top 10 in sprints of 40s or less. Ultimately W/kg I find matters on any route with hills, and being faster on descents doesn't make up for the slow climbs. In races, it's too easy to lose the pack on climbs.
I can imagine you are a sprinting monster!
If this video is successful I am going to do a sequel where I do a similar test with W/kg (but perhaps on different routes to keep it fresh).
69kg and around natural body weight alp time 46.06 how often do I do that. Even at my weight the decents are an issue. I ride with top tier B and low A no problem seriously considering putting 3 to 4kg of muscle on think the gains will more than make up for loses
Yup, sounds like you could improve with more muscle mass.
To clarify, I don't think the weight is a problem. The dead one is.
The question on my mind is how Swift applied their algorithm to make the difference. They probably have several working together to simulate rider weight, aerodynamic drag, fancy gear performance etc. The second worry is if everyone is honest about their numnbers when they sign up for a race.
I cannot tell you about the first thing. I can, however, answer the second worry: Absolutely not.
Great video. I would be interested to see the difference between 70 and 80 kg at the same W/Kg. Like each run is at 2.85 W/Kg. 70Kg rider at 200W, but the 80Kg rider at 230W. Would the times be almost exact?
@@shawnvanderstam8891 That video is already in the making. ;)
@@RoadtoA Amazing!
@ Also, to answer your question (and to tease a little ;)): No.
😉
I have been looking at my ZRS with one eye on my weight ( as I have been bitching about my ZRS since it came out ) when I first started racing I was at 85. KG but since 20th October my weight has been recorded at 90kg. So basically my ZRS was calculated at 85.3kg but since it has been released I have been carrying an extra 4.7kg which according to you will impact my finishes by over a minute in most races. Guess I'll have to try and get my weight back on track.
@@talonlan holy hell, dude, I am sorry, but that's kind of hilarious😅
Go get that performance back!
@@RoadtoA Yeah change to lifestyle, and having 1 hour each day where I have been having to wait around with nothing to do has led to binge eating through boredom.
@@talonlan oh so you actually gained the weight? i thought the program switched it for you. Then I take back the hilarious part.
Though I know what you mean, my weight has increased too in the recent months.
@@RoadtoA Oh no it is hilarious, don't worry you didn't make me feel bad. Just really bad timing in adjusting my in game weight lol
Weight definitely plays big part, but there are heavier pro riders that have tried losing weight but that also brought their power numbers down significantly. It all depends what sort of riding you do. If you are pure climber, keen your weight low. If you are leaning more towards domestique or sprinter keep building those leg muscles! Other side is 100+kg riders that will benefit greatly from losing weight. Thanks for the video, good data.
@@rinaldolookene thanks! Today there's going to be a sequel released FWIW.;)
Is this relevant in a race when you can draft 🤔 I do agree for a TT though 👍 Very interesting and thank you for putting this together 🙌
It is. The numbers/time savings will be different for sure but the general principle still applies.
@@RoadtoA Then the real question 🤔 Where will you sit on that balance scale 😜
Nice video and test, would be interesting to see a similar test but with rider height.
We'll see. The next part is a similar test with w/kg instead of pure watts. But maybe there can be part 3?
That said, height is not something that is actionable, do even if there's a meaningful difference, would such test bring any value?
@RoadtoA nice idea for part 2.
My guess would be that height only affects in-game aerodynamics, which in the game isn't really actionable, other than staying in a bunch, or super tuck on descents, but in rhe real world it is something actionable, so I'm just curious how much of a disadvantage taller people have in Zwift 🤷🏻♂️... In the real world you can be big, but you can still achieve a lower CdA than a smaller person in some scenarios. Whereas with weight, a lighter person will always be lighter.
@ I'll see what the response to the second video will be. If people like it, I am happy to do part 3 (then again, if not, I wouldn't probably bother, as I need to do 8 rides separatly so the production of such video is pretty time consuming).
For me being 60kg sucks cause if there is a small downhill I get dropped and if the people being 75kg can follow me up the climb I’m screwed!
@@CycleWithMatts Being 15 kg less you should have a huge advantage to those riders but if I remember correcty you said under one of the previous videos you are 15, right?
That means a lot of your strength is still developing.
60kgs?? You must be under 12 years old?
@ I’m 17
@@RoadtoA I’m 17
But if you had 75kg you would get dropped by the same riders, also with more weight you also have bigger silhouette and with that comes more wind drag...
Great video!
@@RobSAFC thank you!
Good stuff
@@mathewt4309 🫡
Very interesting and I agree the flat result is unexpected. When I got back into riding I lost 9 kg (80 -> 71) without trying in the first 6 months, then I slowly got back up to around 74 kg yet my performance kept improving. Wish I could have measured body fat through this process.
I would guess there was also the effect of training, so while you gained weight your raw wattage got better resulting in overall improvement.
Zwift uses height and weight to give your human avatar a CdA value. Higher weight = higher CdA
what about the avatar size? zwift has 3 avatars for men and two for women?
I'm not sure, but that doesn't play a role in the performance.
@@RoadtoA you're 100% fucking wrong - it does.
Tohle je hodně zajímavé téma... zvlášť pak když se mi váha během roku mění o 10 kg ... jde to hodně poznat v realu... (na rovině ne :) natož pak ve zwiftu :)
@@intox43 Tak v reálu tam vstupují ještě další faktory jako vítr, povrch, tlak v pneumatikách a tak.
Ale těch 10 kg už je dost extrémní, pro většinu lidí bude relevantní fluktuace tak 3-5. Ale víš jak, kolik toho musíš natrénovat, aby ses za hodinu zlepšil o minutu a půl...:-)
My weight is a problem... My low weight. When I'm able to increase my weight, my power raises and my performances also
If you are underweight you are probably lacking the muscle mass.
Your performance is really not effected, but you finish is your still training. Only difference in weight is those that sand bag and lie.
Your weight when you are already fit without extra body fat will give you more power/watts when you gain muscles and vs versra so it ready depends on what type of ride your strvie to be. You can't be a climber and a sprinter and the same time if you’re an A rider.
Yep! This is definitely way more relevant to people with extra weight in terms of body fat. If you are already on low body fat then it is really up to what kind of rider do you want to be.
Now you want to do the same tests but with the riders both having the same WPKG as the heavier rider generally will have the higher FTP.........100KG with 300ftp v 70Kg with 210FTP......
@@bwarey52 that's exactly what the next test will be;)
make video about height :)
@@lil__apan oof...do you suspect that makes a big difference?
@@RoadtoA Height plays a big roll in the CDA of Zwift
@@TychoVelo I knew it plays a role, didn't know it played a big one. I'll see if I can figure out a test that makes sense!
(And first I need to study how it works.)
Hello sir..
Are you looking for a professional TH-cam thumbnail designer?
Let me know please
Thanks
zwift is a mr puniverse contest.
Wonder if it would be even more accurate if you ran it using a bot?
Probably, but that's beyond the scope of my abilities though. :D
But I guess the tiny differences make it pointless to do that 😂
@@RoadtoA and I guess Zwift might ban you 😂 thanks for the interesting video!
The noise of the counter in the beginning 10 seconds is extremely annoying.
Thank you for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind for next videos.
84kg! 🧸🙈 😏🐘🦣🦏🦛
So... now we need to see tests with SAME watt per kg
@@Liqvidator working on it!
Maybe you could do the same video, but instead of the same absolute watts, you could do the same w/kg.
@@LukasHridesbikes I will!
What weight were you when you carried out the test? If you were 80 kg then no wonder the 70kg was quicker. I'm a 59kg rider and zwift is not realistic when climbing as compared to real life, gravity isn't taken into account. I know this from riding and racing with the same people on zwift and real life
@@dalewilliams2069 I am confused - how is my actual weight relevant on this test? I set 70 and 80 kg for both test, respectively.
@RoadtoA because of you were 80 kg and reduced zwift weight to 70kg, then you have the power of a 80 kg rider pushing 200 watts. If both are set at 200 watts the 70 kg rider will have a higher wkg and go faster. It would the difference between C cat and say B cat for example. Maybe I've missed something so apologies if I have?
@ gotcha.
The point of this test was to compare how does weight influence riding performance when riding the same absolute watts.
But yesterday I released another video that compared riding at the same w/kg, sounds like that's what you are looking for.;)
What's REALLY Going On with Your WEIGHT on Zwift?
th-cam.com/video/lOcFS7FkXro/w-d-xo.html
@RoadtoA what is your view on lighter riders not getting the advantage they should on the climb's? I'm getting beaten up hills by riders in the same cat, which I'm at the top end of and they are 20 kg heavier.
@@dalewilliams2069 I think this is a problem that should get eventually solved by the new Racing Score.
But it is to be expected if you are not competing at the very top level (if you are putting 200w as a 50 kg rider for example, you can absolutely expect someone who is 75 kg outputting 300w - that's a reasonable expectation).
But heavier,stronger riders can usually push more watts so the real world difference is less.
W/kg at two different weights is going to be my next video.
@ That will be an interesting video! Then the question becomes what is the point at which a heavier rider can no longer sustain the same watts per kilo as a lighter rider for an hour or more both as the riders weight increases or pushing more watts per kilo.
I am a 66kg rider. Most races are mostly flat. I have ZERO chances to win. I need to put so many more watts in BOTH flat terrain AND even more donwill. A 75kg rider could be resting at 1.5wkg and i would have to push over 3 wkg to keep on in a descent. Once i am at the end of it i get on a flat and he STILL has an advantage. Even in his draft oi have to put down 1wkg more to stay stuck to him. I usually am amoung the top 10 in wkg and i always get OBLITERATED on regular races. The same applies in real life with teams hidding their climbers. This does not happen on zwift. You're exposed and by yourself. As such, average weight riders have the advantage in this game as no light roder will ever benegit enoough from climbs to get back the time he has lost.
What is the value of this test - except for demonstrating the effect of weight cheating? If you weigh more for real, you will most likely also produce more power.
@@sverreamrani53 true, but the the effect of such power "increase" is different on different terrain. And that's the purpose of this video.
FWIW, I plan to also explore the other side of things - ride the same w/kg on different terrain to see the effect on that.
@@RoadtoA Yeah, that is more to the core of it. However, what I was hoping (?) - was that you did all out tests on different terrains "today" at your current weight - and beefed up 5 kg - and then retested. So.. but I am probably just a grouchy old man today :).
@@sverreamrani53 while probably more entertaining, I wouldn't say that all out tests would be a good way to perform those tests - there's way more variables that go into all out performance that could skew the results.
That's why I picked the power that I can hold pretty much indefinetly.
@@RoadtoA Will always be "noise" in such tests - but I think all of us already know the effects of just varying the kg in Zwift - and also how w/kg have different impacts on varying terrain. So - what would be new and ground breaking in a zwift researching context, would be all out tests - with a fit 70 kg RoadtoA and a fit 75 kg RoadtoA.
The high pitched trill of your number animations is among the most annoying sounds on TH-cam.
@@martindirkzimmer I already got that feedback. Thank you, I will tone it down next time.
95-96 kg does not help. Does it 😂😫
@@aoe76 if it is pure muscle, it might!
There is a problem with this and that is if you have more weight you can push more watts on the flat and climbs that are not to steep so that makes you faster. I am light so I can climb on steep climbs faster than heavier riders and see this all the time when I race as I look on Zwiftpower. after the races to see the profiles. So keeping to the same wattage does not show this point.
@@barryhambly7711 I am going to do a sequel. Similar test (on different routes to keep it fresh) with the same w/kg but different weight.