Was I right or wrong? I'm sure you'll let me know! Go to nordvpn.com/deadbedspread to get the two year plan with an exclusive deal PLUS 4 EXTRA months! It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30 day money back guarantee!
The Zodaic Theory could be still true in a way in that sense Fuecoco seems to be from the Aztec Zodiac, the fire starters as a whole could be a part of any Zodiac Calander that currently exists.
Do you even know the difference between semi.aquatic animals and animals that can swim? Like, it's not because a cat doesn't instataneously die after touching water like a house fly that it is amphibious
If i want to fight for the fire Chinese theory, Crocodile could 100% rep the snake being you know A LIZARD. But these are just theories to me, basic guidelines~ its okay to bend them from time to time!
My personal theory for what all the starters are based on is this. All the grass one are based on plants. All the fire ones are based on fire. And all the water ones are based on water
Avians are theorised to have evolved from reptiles so all avian staters are reptiles Reptiles are theorised to have evolved from amphibians so all reptile starters are amphibians Amphibians = frog Frog starters = bull frog = oxen All starters are mammals Pokemon lay eggs All Pokemon can be tied to weapons All starters are semi-aquatic egg laying mammals of action Every starter is perry the platypus
I believed in the Zodiac theory for a while, and saw the other two/three as charming coincidences. But I never expected every Fakemon starter to have to follow it, and when Fuecoco was revealed, I just kinda said, "Oh, guess that's not a thing." The fact that people are still trying to cling to it confuses me, frankly, but I guess I've tried to defend far more outlandish ideas in the past, so I can't look too harshly on people.
As someone who also used to defend the theories, it's sunk cost fallacy - they've spent so long doing it that abandoning it now would make it seem like it was all for nothing (when in fact it would be way nicer for discussion!)
The fact that one starter is not a Zoliac does not mean that the game freak was not inspired by the calendar from the very beginning. They might just change their mind over time
Apparently Pokémon Cloud and Soil doesn’t care about it, but the region required a Fire sheep starter. I hear their next region might have a bug for a fire starter
Well, there was also Baurubatrachus and other extinct frogs, so all you get is not Beelzebufo. I remember hearing that the grass starters were moving through evolutionary history. But, that never worked either.
Although I don't believe in the Extinct Grass Starter theory, if I did, I would say that Venusaur is based on a Temnospondyl (an extinct group of amphibians described in the late 19th century)
@@Going4Broke2528 "Saur" is a part of the English translation, Venusaur's name in the original Japanese text when translated to English is literally just "Mysterious Flower"
I remember hearing the starter theories in gen 6 and thinking they were neat, but only really thought it worked for the first five. And then gen 7 came along and i figured it was stupid because "why would gamefreak limit themselves like that? they'd run out of zodiac signs for the fire types eventually..."
to be honest retreading ideas would eventually get boring so maybe it shouldn't be a thing? just how i think about it. the starters most of the time have been limited to fire, grass, and water. except for a few exceptions. why would they intentionally limit their creativity further?
Im not really into any of these theory but imagen if all those theory are actually true but only at the generation where Ash is the Mc in anime and now a new theory will be out
I feel like the reason Cyndaquil is called the "mouse Pokemon" is probably because of how Japanese uses the word ネズミ (nezumi) or a variation of it to refer to any rodent or any small, vaguely mouse shaped mammal such as shrews, hedgehogs or possums. This word "ネズミ" translates to both mouse or rat in English. Japanese equates many animals we consider to be separate like alligators and crocodiles (both ワニ) or apes and monkeys (both サル).
@@roboraptorwolf9726 It’s a project I am planning to do one day I have just been doing the designs in my notebook to make some cool Pokemon and one of the evolution lines involves Valstrax and my water starter starts off as a fish with feet then becomes a gore Magala lookalike then finally evolves into a Shagaru Magala form even though I have a dragon eevolution that’s a Shagaru Magala lookalike.
"If the Pokemon Company and Game Freak are able to express their creativity however they want, then the rest of us should be, too." The lesson we all needed to hear,. Amen.
I mean that's a bold thing to say about a company that up until LAST YEAR exclusively released clones of the previous game with one (1) new battle mechanic that was removed before each new game.
I just like the idea that instead of the different types of starters following some cohesive pattern across each generation, the starter trio of each generation just follows their own theme (ex: Gen 9 starters based on performers, Gen 8 starters based on entertainment, gen 1 starters are all reptile/amphibian animals)
@@rockincradilyyyy8489 in rpgs, fighter stands for a martial artist with evasion as its defensive option greninja fits it more since ninjas are ultimately a combination of rogue and fighter, chestnaught real class would be a warrior/knight which are physical and often serves as the tank role which chestnaught clearly is
Gen 8 starters aren't simply "entertainment", they're specifically based on British cultural icons. Remember, Galar is based on Great Britain. Rillaboom is based on heavy metal drummers, complete with a big bushy hairdo, and Britain is known for being the birthplace of heavy metal. (It also may be based on a famous British commercial of a gorilla playing the drums, or even the band Gorillaz, which is from the UK.) Cinderace is, of course, a soccer/football player, and Britain has a very strong and intense culture surrounding that sport. Brits love football so much that they'll start fights over their favorite teams and make up songs about the opposing players' criminal charges. And Inteleon is very much inspired by James Bond, a famous British literary and film character. The James Bond books were written by a British author and, with the exception of Pierce Brosnan, every actor playing him has been from the UK as well.
@@deadbedspread in fact, here's an even further stretch- it's a fighting type, and its dex entry states it could send a truck flying if it ran into it. Therefore, the horse chesnut-knight-creature is a battering ram.
@@MidnightCapricorn2696he's the Juggernaut b*tch! (Please don't get mad at me I wasn't calling you a b*tch I was just referencing a line from the 3rd X-men movie.)
@@deadbedspread A shield being a weapon isn't a stretch in the slightest. You get some guy with a buckler, and some guy with nunchaku and the nunchaku guy has his skull divided into 50 pieces in like 8 seconds before keeling over dead from brain damage.
@@thepsychobear2362 He's not saying a shield as a weapon is a stretch, he's saying you can stretch the weapons theory to include even more non-water starters
Out of these, I feel like the "Water starters gotta be semi-aquatic" feels like the only one that might be true, but, Mudkip kinda throws a bit of a wrench in that one, considering Axolotls are actually fully aquatic (unless you force them to grow up). I guess Mudskippers aren't, tho.
The reason people were against the idea of Fennikin being a dog is because foxes are very unique animals yes they’re classified as canines but they also share a lot of personality and behavior treats from felines I’ve even read that some scientists are asking to have a separate group for foxes because of this
@@nashawnlivingston2965 The thing on the Zodiac is a domestic dog though. While Domestic Dogs and Fennec Foxes share common ancestory, they actually aren't directly related, as the Domestic Dox is in the Canini subfamily and Foxes are in the Vulpini subfamily. So no, they aren't even in the same family either.
@@nickdentoom1173 that’s actually a common misconception; both dogs and foxes are part of the family Canidae aka the dog family. Canini (dog like canines) and Vulpini (Fox like canines) are merely tribes within the *subfamily* Caninae (subfamily and family are not the same thing). All living canids are in the same subfamily Caninae and therefore are all considered canine. They separate after subfamily. In the same way, big cats actually aren’t feline; they’re pantherine (TLDR; yes, dogs and foxes are in both the same family and subfamily, you were simply referring to their “tribe”)
If you think about it, it doesn’t really make sense to call canines “dogs” as dogs literally came from wolves… It’s like calling apes humans because we evolved from apes. Sooo wouldn’t it make more sense to call it wolves (even if they are more so distant cousins to dogs)?
I hope and glad that we are breaking away from those theories and such, gives and adds more creative for anyone tbh, also you could lump in any of the non-starter Pokémon into those theories while you are at it, lol
Your transition skills are unparalleled 😂 I never would have guessed there was one lol I really appreciate this video and you talking about these design theories. It’s cool to see someone tackling them in such a way that lets people follow the theories if they want or reject them if need be. I appreciate your work! Keep creating!
@@deadbedspread It was well worth the time and effort! It’s cool to see someone who gives their videos all they’ve got. It’s inspiring! I didn’t think you were ranting too bad lol, I think the theories are good starting points for beginners (like myself) but they shouldn’t be absolute truths that must be followed to the letter or else lol. I really appreciate your work, man!
Man. I appreciate this. The "it has to be x or it doesn't count" has been driving me nuts for a long time, as you well know. This was a super fun way to call out the bs for what it is. What a ride.
Personally, I believe that you can make starter pokemon however you want. You can follow these theories, not follow these theories or heck, maybe make your own unique theories regarding your starters. Why not switch the theories around like having the grass starter based on a weapon, the fire starter based on a prehistoric creature and the water starter based on an animal from the chinese zodiac. That way you can have repeats with the weapons, extinct species and chinese zodiac but, it's for different starters with different concepts. I feel like I was really holding onto these theories being correct for the longest time but, as you said with the Paldea starters, yeah they're all a stretch to say the very least. GameFreak likely picked these starters because they thought of cool concepts, not because "Oh Meowscarada is the iberian Lynx, Skeledirge is a snake/bull/horse etc, and Quaquaval is the chakram weapon." Bottom line, make starters whatever way you want. If people complain, that's their problem not yours.
Classic based SMG comment 😎 Funny you mention swapping the theories to different types, I've been seeing that pop up more and more recently - best example I can think of is ReomaArt (best Grass starter Fakemon I've seen in a loooong time!) Imagining a boardroom of executives agreeing on the new starters because of those aforementioned 'rules' makes it sound all the more ludicrous! Absolutely, end of the day, they are YOUR Fakemon, almost like how actual Pokemon are Game Freaks - no one can say what they are and are not!
@@deadbedspread Exactly. And yes, ReomaArts Grass Starter Frogue is awesome. Honestly forgot he actually did this idea until you mentioned it. I had an idea for a fire starter based on a bear and it was combined with cooking because the bear constellations "aka the big dipper" looked like saucepans and I thought that would be fun to do but, I always gave up on that idea because "tHe BeAr IsNt iN tHe cHiNeSe ZoDiAc." I'm not an artist, hell i'm pretty medicore when it comes to drawing in general but, I do still love coming up with fakemon ideas in my head. So, when I kept seeing people say "you have to follow these theories in order to be taken seriously" it was soul crushing. I'm so glad you made this video though as when you say it all aloud, yeah the theories for the most part are a stretch
I do think Decidueye draws partial inspiration from the stilt owl but that’s more to fit with themes of the Alola region, not some “grass starters equal x” theme. The starter trios tend to have some themes tying them together, but it’s more a theme between that trio than a theme across that starter type. And it usually ties into their region’s general, overall themes as a whole.
Well there's still one theory that have yet to be proven wrong for the Water Starter Theory and it's that all Water Starters are based on animals that are semi-aquatic. Them being weapons do make sense but I never ride on that theory.
@@Miguel92398 technically, that theory has also been proved wrong since gen 1. Even though squirtle and wartortle are obviously turtles, blastoise is more of a tortoise, which as stated in the video, cannot swim at all. So by technicality, it can be proven wrong, but it really depends on if you take its name at face value
@@mikomakowski7907 English, yea. But the game is Japanese and Japanese words still classifies Blastoise as a turtle (well kame is both described turtle and tortoise but the fact that Blastoise can go into water and is a water type just points him more of a turtle than a tortoise) Its design is more turtle than tortoise if you ask me.
This was a great video! I, too, am a fakemon artist and recently felt pressured into making my water starter into a weapon. It turned out OK, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind.
@@rafethomas9126 for example: "🤓hey make a water nuclear missile and name it some dumb shit like bomby or something like that 🤓". that is not meant to poke fun at the fakemon artists, its meant to make fun of the theorists
@Marx hey, if someone wants to make Bomby, go for it. Hell, I'll probably give it a like. Maybe just don't pressure others into following these "standards".
Funnily enough, Skeledirge could legitimately be considered a second dragon, because there are numerous dragon-like creatures in Iberian folklore that may have been inspired by crocodilians, and there’s a mosaic art piece by Antoni Gaudí called “El Drac”, which literally means “The Dragon”
I mean, while Fennekin is in the Canid family, the Dog on the Zodiac is a domestic one. So Fennekin doesn't count, because it isn't a domestic dog. Cyndaquil being called the Fire Mouse Pokemon in the Pokedex, i wouldn't put much thought into either, considering the same is true for both Rattata/Raticate and Sandshrew. Neither of them are mice (Sandshrew is based on a shrew and Armadillo, which ain't even rodents).
Also, the animal that CyndaQUIL is based on is called the "needle-mouse" in Japanese. And since CyndaQUIL has fire instead of QUILS, the name replaces QUILS with a fire related word for the pokedex.
My fire starter is a ghost, my water starter is a dunkleosteus, and my grass starter is a bush disguise. All 3 of these are fully unrelated to the 3 theories you mentioned coincidentally, so that’s nice!
Well, the only theory I currently believe is the "starter connection theory" where each starter trio has a shared theme. I have no idea if it is confirmed though Gen 1: Genetics/Dinosaurs Gen 2: Ancient creatures Gen 3: Unique adaptations Gen 4: Myths/Legends Gen 5: Civilizations Gen 6: (RPG) Classes Gen 7: Circus/Performance Gen 8: British Entertainment Gen 9: Triple Threat
End of the day what really bothered me about all of these theories the fact that it’s limiting creativity you have no idea how many times I’ve seen interesting projects on Instagram and then gets turned off because they try to shoe in the zodiac stater when there’s much better choices out there
I always felt this was more of an "I want to believe " kind of thing because thematic patterns are really cool but I do agree they can be restricting and people should get to design what they want, personally I love how nowadays they seem to come more packaged in themes like how chesnaugth, Delphox and greninja are based on rpg tropes.
I believed in the Fire Zodiac theory up until around Gen 7. By that point, Fennekin from the previous gen being the Dog was already pretty dubious for some. So while the tabby-esque Litten evolving into the Tiger seemed extremely obvious (especially when you realise the forehead cross ‡ symbol is a very common visual shorthand for the forehead stripes in Japanese cartoon illustrations of tigers), it was still kinda uncertain. Once Scorbunny debuted and people started calling it the Rabbit of the Zodiac, I was already pretty tired of so many people shoving the theory down others' throats as if it were gospel. Plus I was having ideas for my own fakemon stuff at the time and wanted to defy this "theory" by choosing a non-Zodiac animal for my Fire starter BOY am I glad Fuecoco exists. I still don't like it compared to the other two though lmao
My issue was with Cyndaquil being the "rat" never worked for me. Hedgehog in Japanese apparently translates to needle mouse. So, there is no reason to assume because it is called the fire mouse pokemon it is a mouse. It's Japanese name may be inspired by the Japanese word for porcupine. And its evolved forms aren't not even based on rodents. Also, Charizard being the only member of its line that says dragon because didn't work for me. Like the first two in line were done based solely off ONE member of their family. The rest all had the entire line as evidence. It was always weak to me. Like it was an interesting thought experiment but people took it way too literally for me.
It still puzzles me how using a fox to represent the dog sign seems less acceptable to some than using an echidna-turned-badger to represent the rat sign. If you ask me, the earlier gen 'mons seem the most dubious (with fuecoco being a clear late-gen outlier).
I never bought into the zodiac theory. Every justification for the edge cases (and Typhlosion, who doesn't fit at all) felt like reductive thinking from people who knew nothing of the culture surrounding the zodiac being used.
The Water starters kind of need to be amphibious so they can have main characters actually use them in the anime. Think about how often Misty actually got to use Goldeen or Horsea. That's why they gave her Poliwag and Corsola in later seasons. Ash's Lapras was also pretty much only used as transport between islands, and would probably get zero screentime if he took it to Johto.
Mudkip and Sobble are obvious theory busters, as axolotls are fully aquatic unless you force them to metamorphose (the fact that they managed to make a fully aquatic animal viable for TV series use and humanization shows that they could make a fish starter Pokémon if, or likely when, they want to, they just haven't shown such desires yet), while both chameleons and basilisk lizards are fully terrestrial.
@@bubbykins4864 I thought Sobble was a chameleon? But yeah Mudkip does fit. I figured axolotls would come on land a good bit since they have legs. Though that could still have helped Mudkip, since I imagine it's easier to give something puppy legs if it already has legs to replace. That said, Cetottle is a fully terrestrial whale, so they could definitely make a fish with legs.
As much as I used to defend the Fire Zodiac theory, I always conceded that there were two major flaws to it. 1. They would have run out of animals to use as basis for the designs. (The only animals of the Chinese Zodiac not yet used are the Ox, the Snake, the Goat, and the Horse) Which leads me into… 2. We already have fire horses with the Ponyta line. Unless they were to do something unique with a horse themed fire type starter line, such as using a mythical creature like the Centaur or the Pegasus, there’d be little reason to retread old ground like that.
To be fair, gen 1 had 2 fire-type fox pokémon, yet gen 6 still gave us the fennekin line. Not that I'm hoping for another fire horse line as starters, but it's not as if that sort of thing is unprecedented.
The Fennekin deniers always made absolutely no sense to me so thanks for pointing that out! Also DUDE this has definitely made me rethink design tropes in Pokemon.
Next they'll be gatekeeping based on the specific breed of dog - Gen 9 completely snapped me out of what I thought I knew, so glad I could share the realisation!
@PragMagik to some degree I do agree with Fennekin being the dog, but compared to other canines fennec foxes are not very dog like. Fennec foxes in my opinion look a lot like chihuahuas, but I don’t mean any harm because I’m talking about a digital fox. Still adore your content.
Actually, it's based on actual folklore treating foxes and dogs very differently. In addition, calling Fennekin a dog is cheating because it is highly improbable that the Jade Emperor didn't invite Fox. As if _that_ wasn't enough, Zodiac conspiracists label Litten a tiger. Cat lost solely because Rat cheated.
@@bubbykins4864 Not necessarily though if you read or even watched the new Fruits Basket anime the cat was the technical first since it went to the Jade Emperor/God and the JE/G sent invitations to the others. So the cat could have been the founder of the whole Zodiac Party
For Decidueye it was easy to actually point out that it was clearly based off a Pueo, a Hawaiian owl. The Ghost type comes in because in Hawaiian myth they were physical forms of Ancestor Spirits.
0:12 I’d personally say that Hau and Nemona picked weaker starters because they wanted more of a challenge, Hop picked the weaker one because he is just really not smart
They actually pick the weaker starter now because It’s good gameplay design. A young kid is likely to use all the moves a pokemon has once. And by choosing the move that matches their type and being given some text from the rival, they immediately learn that there are type advantages, and do so in a reinforcing positive manner. Really good gameplay design in my opinion
i saw somebody saying that skeledirge represent the snake because "crocodile is a reptile and snake is also a reptile, so it count" CHARIZARD IS LITERALLY A REPTILE LIZARD, AND YET. IT REPRESENT THE DRAGON
This is an amazing video and such a refreshing opinion to see on it all. None of the gate-keeping and bullying about people's creations 'matching' Pokémon's style or theme's is okay. Let people make their dream pokemon and share their wonderful ideas without bias on how it 'should' look or work. Great video and thank you so much from someone actively working on their own region and fakemon designs this is super helpful to hear.
Thank you so much! Obviously there are still tips that people can provide to help a Fakemon look more convincing, but these 'rules' were never mandatory. Good luck with it, and you're welcome!
Fuecoco is one of my favorite starters partially because he tells the zodiac theory to pack sand,, but also because he's just a lil guy with no thoughts behind those gentle eyes.
I always took the Fire-starter zodiac and the extinct Grass-starter theories as not a 100% thing, but rather a part of possible inspirations when designing them, not self-imposed hard rules they must follow.
I don't even think the "no starter must be fully aquatic" theory has something to do with emotions but probably more to do with the fact these pokemon are most definitely gonna show up in the anime and must be able to move in both land and water bc not every episode is close to a body of water
I understand the grass & water themes of Extinct/Prehistoric Animals & Weapons. But I personally have a theory that all of the fire starters are based on mythology and Folklore as opposed to the zodiac. -Charizard: Western Dragon & Salamander myths -Typhlosion: Mujina (badger Yokai) (H-Typhlosion) is also is the Night Parade of 1000 demons) -Blaziken: Basan (Fire breathing chicken Yokai) or the Karura (Essentially a Phoenix friend of Garuda) -Infernape: Sun Wu Kong -Emboar: Zhu Baije (Pigsy) -Delphox: Kitsune and western depictions of witches. -Incineroar: Heracles (Both we’re super strong wrestlers & the guy choked an indestructible lion & wore its pelt for the rest of the myth: pretty close to a tiger pelt.) there are also were tigers from India but that’s a stretch in my opinion. -Cinderace: The white rabbit (Chinese myth) and the Hare of Inaba (Japanese myth) but there was also an Aztec legend about a rabbit being kicked/thrown at the moon so it could start moving. -Skeledirge: Coco/Cuca is a bogeyman equivalent in Spain & Portugal. Basically a crocodile looking at figure who kidnaps children at night. (There is also a The Mexican Calavera (the colored skulls) and the Calaca (the entire skeleton, usually the imagery of the dead in general) for inspiration, (Dia De los Muertos being the Mexican hybridization of local practices and All saints day, a Catholic holiday brought from Spain). Now I know the whole point of this video is to avoid gatekeeping they come on artists from having to stick to the previously established tropes: but I think it helps those who are stagnant on it to simply branch out from the trope by expanding upon it. Like you said everyone originally thought that the grass starters were all reptiles until GEN six when the extinct theory got traction. I just figured I’d share the connection I made with the fire starters. Since it helped with crearing more diverse starter concepts
By that stretch you can design literally anything because everything has a mythological counterpart. Lapras is nessie Ho-oh is literally named after the Japanese phoenix, lycanrock is a werewolf. Nearly every mon I can personally link back to a myth. Mythology is a great theme for a Pokémon, which is why MOST of them can be traced to mythology, but calling it a starter theme is like saying all starters have to be alive and have eyes.
@@folfelit Well I know but the theme for the other two starters are so vague as well. Pretty much anything alive today has had some form of a prehistoric ancestor, and pretty much anything on earth can swim or We have come up with so many ways to kill each other with weaponry over the centuries but they’re endless potential for those two, So One equally bag for the fire starters makes a lot of sense to me
Even that sponsor segment was entertaining~ Another fantastic video from DBS! I'm a fan of the grass starter theory, but you totally proved that yes, animals evolve and ancestors go instict no matter the animal 😂 THANK YOU for talking about the Chinese zodiac theory lol, that one drives me up a wall. . . even though Fuecoco is a horse obvs 🙄🙃
This feels like a good wake up call for everyone in communication to be a bit more open minded about there through of Pokémon! (As honestly I fort the grass one made the most sense for while until now) Well done on making a fun an entertaining video I’m sure has open the minds of millions! and good to see you getting sponsors!
I just never got any of these. Grass: ok, this one kinda makes kinda sense, but eh... I thought Bulbasaur was just... a Frog. Water: a brass knuckle? For a Crocodile? Not something about their GIANT ASS SUPER JAWS? And a fan for Swampert? Eh? And how is Primarina a mace? Fire: Typhlosion. Just, Typhlosion. It's whole line. How the fuck is it a Mouse or Rat? Cyndaquil is an Echidna, which is more related to a Platypuss than a Mouse or Rat, and Quilava and Typhlosion are Honey Badgers, which are Mustelids. What's a Mustelid? Otters, Weasels, and Stoats. NONE OF THESE ARE RELATED TO MICE OR RATS. Also, yes, I just confirmed that there is canonically a water/fire type ancestor to both Samurott and Typhlosion. "What about it's catagory?" Pokemon Catagories aren't actually what animal they are. Sometimes they'll something like "it's a Shrew Pokemon" and it'll actually be a Pangolin.
Yeah looking back those theories don’t really work especially since starters have a generation theme and not a overall theme, like for example gen 6 starters have a rpg classes theme and gen 7 starters have a circus theme, bobbs have a TH-cam short video about and a full video where he adds another starter to each gen based on the starter themes
@@tpfoxCastro yes like how gen 1 starters have a household pet theme and a period of history theme with charmander line being a lizard and middle ages, squirtle being a turtle and Morden era and bulbasaur being a frog and ancient times, i used gen 6 because they do only have 1 theme and i did think gen 7 had 1 theme but it has 2 being circus theme and classical literature, watch any of the 2 videos I mentioned to see the themes
I like the idea like it's a trope with early grass types or how fire lasted so long, but it shouldn't restrict design just give a fast inspiration for mono fire types. I love Skeledirge's design and wouldn't have it any other way, it'd be harder to fit a horse to that or pivot everything for a snake or ox. Grass could just be a coincidence but I like to think half of them are either reptiles or early mammals/extinct owl. Water is clearly just any amphibious animal because it's easier to give personality to a mammal or reptile that travels with you, that should be written down somewhere since it is integral to the marketing.
I didn't know about the other two theories. Maybe I heard about the Water type weaponry one once by in one ear out the other. Anyway onto the subject. I *hate* the Zodiac theory it's so annoying and for what? Cyndaquil is nowhere near a rat 🙄
My theory is that the generation starters have a theme, example: greninja, chesnaught, and delphox being based off dnd classes, it allows more flexibility that way if you dont want to follow specific animal guidelines, but you can still have some sort of order
I'm so glad someone made this video, I'm tired of the instant pattern believers tryna make me think a flat reptile boi is a horse. I've been saying the "every animal that exists today had extinct relatives" point for so long, I'm so glad someone thought likewise aghhhh
I never really put much stock in the Zodiac theory, and I'd never even heard of the other two. When I came up with the starters for my fan game, my mindset going in was "pets." Hence, we have a Grass-type mouse that evolves into a rat that evolves into a wolverine, a Fire-type newt that evolves into a Gila Monster that evolves into a Komodo dragon, and a Water-type puppy that evolves into a dog that evolves into a... bigger dog (my line of thought there was "water dogs," a type of gundog that specializes in aquatic/semi-aquatic game).
2:17 Birds are dinosaurs & thus reptiles & bulbasaur kinda looks like an amphibian though…I think they’re supposed to be a dicynodont, which is a proto mammal so uh….that theory was always wrong.
@@ARandomMinecraftVillagerunder the modern system of organism classification, organisms are grouped into monophyletic clades consisting of an ancestor, and all of said ancestors descendants. In order to construct a clade that contains all of the living traditional reptiles(lizards including snakes, turtles and crocodilians) birds must be included in the clade since they are the descendant of the last common ancestor of the clade, given crocodilians share a more recent common ancestor with birds then with any other reptile alive today, and turtles share a more recent common ancestor with the archosaurs(crocodilians and birds) then with the lepidosaurs(lizards including snakes).
the part when he said "nerdy sounds: which called bulls, inteleon is long and lizardy so it must be a snake and quaxly is a bird so it must be a bird" made me laugh so hard it almost killed me💀💀💀💀💀💀
my favorite fun fact about the whole zodiac thing is that in the story of how the animals were assigned to the zodiac, there was a Cat involved who tried and failed to enter the running bc it was cheated by the Rat, thereby making Litten's presence in the theory a paradox
Wait... Wasn't the prehistoric Bulbasaur Dinosaur discovered WAAAAY after Pokemon was even a thing? It literally got its name BECAUSE Bulbasaur already existed, then how was Bulbasaur based on an extinct dinosaur if the dinosaur wasn't discovered until after Bulbasaur was created.
I do think Charizard not being an eastern dragon is a bit relevant. When they were making the first 2 gens they were obviously not think about overarching themes for the starters that would last at least 12 games. Gen 2 was originally going to have a bear fire starter (I was told years ago "bears count as the tiger" lmao), and Cyndaquil is based on a hedgehog/porcupine both of which are called "needle mouse" in Japanese so they described it as a "fire mouse" ("fire hog" might have gotten the point across better in English, but then people would be saying it counted as the pig lol). You could argue that while they obviously didn't plan this for Gen 1/2 that they did for every Gen afterwards and retroactively made them fit. But I don't think that is the case either, I think Gen 3-5 just happen to line up by coincidence (this is when the theory was made) and you have to squint to make Gen 1/2 to work. Fennekin then throws a wrench into it, yeah foxes are related to dogs but the zodiac is specifically a domesticated dog. Fuecoco just finally completely shatters the idea that had a shaky foundation to start with. Starters tend to be based on common animals kids will know about and the Chinese Zodiac is made of common animals, which is probably why so many happen to line up and confirmation bias kicks in. Having Infernape and Emboar back to back being based on Chinese mythology is probably the main cause of people thinking there was some kind of Chinese theming with the starters. And why would the fire starters be the only one with this special theming? (I won't entertain of Grass/Water starter "theories" cause of how ridiculous they are, which you already demonstrated lol)
It's also worth mentioning that the Chinese Zodiac has a fixed element system and a rotating every 2 years element system, it makes no sense they would exclusively be fire type. It's really just Infernape and Emboar being based on Chinese myth why people try to connect all of them to the zodiac. Also they talk about design inspirations all the time, especially the starters and some of their themes, if any of these theories are right (especially the zodiac one) we would know for certain by now after nearly 30 years.
Heres my thing with the zodiac fire guys, i see it as less of a pattern to guess the next starter, but a crutch to help fakemon artists design their own fire starter without the hassle of finding and researching a unique animal to base one on.
Ya know. A biome theory could almost work for the water and grass starters. Almost every grass type and almost every water type are based off of an animal that come from a different biome. Only issue for Grass types is that Decidueye and Sceptile would both come from a foresty biome and both Popplio and Piplup would come from arctic water biomes. Unless you count seals as coming from cold beaches.
I've always liked the theories but never held it to a "rule standard" if I was running into an artist block or an idea block I would use those as a form of inspiration but never gatekeep people for what they do. I do not follow the pokemon criteria when making fakemon because its what you think wprks for you
One theory I believe about starters is all water starters can easily walk on land. While Popplio pushing it back a little, sea lions often spend time on land and don't seem to struggle to travel on land.
This was an awesome video. I had heard all of these theories floating around forever, and it's great to hear someone talk about how they don't work in the echo chamber that is the internet. While I didn't necessarily gatekeep or adamantly accept those theories, at least not intentionally, I did find the Fire Zodiac theory and Grass Extinct Animal theories at least believable, but I never fully got on board with the Water Weapon theory because as you say in the video theres only like 5 of the 9 that even sort of work with the theory. This is the first I've heard of Feraligatr being Brass Knuckles, I've seen more arguments for it being claw weapons like Wolverine or Vega from Street Fighter or like the claws on chains thing from martial arts movies. I'll be honest, I thought this video was going to be talking about the other starter theories, that each set of starters has an internal theme with each other. Its generally said that Gen 4 is a mythology theme of Island Turtle, Sun Wukong, and Poseidon, Gen 5 being nobility based with each starter looking like it could be part of a foreign noble house, I believe more specifically it's supposed to be French, Chinese, and Japanese, Gen 6 being standard D&D or RPG classes of Fighter or Knight, Mage, and Rogue, Gen 7 being a circus theme or entertainment theme with an Archer/Ringmaster, Wrestler/Strongman/Tiger that jumps through flaming hoops, and Singer/Clown/Seal that balance the ball on its nose, Gen 8 being common UK theming or also sort of an entertainment theme with Punk Rock/Music in general, Soccer (or Football)/Sports in general, and MI6 Agent/Hunter/Actor, and Gen 9 I don't recall off hand, but I think its also an entertainment theme and also a Spanish/Latin theme with Stage Magic/Iberian Lynx, Music/Dia De Los Muertos, and Dance/Caporeira. There are ones that float around for Gens 1-3 as well but I don't necessarily agree with them or see how they work. Its definitely something to look into though if you want to make a sequel to this video.
Thank you! The starter themes (the individual comparisons per Generation) while not being confirmed iirc, are still much more solid than these theories - however anything before Gen 4 is definitely a stretch, so maybe it's still worth taking a look
I’m really glad to see the ending part of this because I’ve also been involved in the Pokemon fandom and fakemon creation for like over fifteen years now on and off and both received and seen criticism that a fan starter was ‘wrong’ for not following the theories (though the water=weapon one I feel I only saw post gen 7 which is funny as that should’ve been the generation to utterly kill it when the water starter was a clown opera singer) which has long since made me hate them even as just fandom fun
Let me just say at 5:08, you might be onto something about Delphox being based on a dire wolf. Foxes weren't around the same time dire wolves were. They evolved a few thousand years later.
I started following you ever since I saw your "fuecoco is a horse" short and this video is a great follow up. The bit at the end was awesome! Keep up the great work!
Or some of them could have been true for a number of gens but they just chose to stop because 25 years of following a cool but limiting rule were too constraining.
@PsyBlob the chinese zodiac doesn't have canid and inspiration for dragons, it has dog and dragon. If you try to make it fit you can make everything fit.
I do believe in the Zodiac theory and I've believed it as far back as the fifth to sixth generation. That said, time is the ultimate agent of change. Whether the theory was right or wrong at some point doesn't matter. As time advances the people in charge of making the games change. The game directors are not the same. The art directors are different. Folk get hired, retire, and move up every year. They suddenly decide that in Gen VI a new form of evolution will be added, in gen VII there won't be gym battles, in gen IX the protagonist will be a student in a open world game. Even if there was a tradition to do the Starters in a certain way in the past, future developers are not necessarily beholden to keep up that tradition. At the same time they can go back to it if they so wish. Understanding all of this, it does sadden me that Fuecoco breaks the mold. I was hoping that it would turn into a Basilisk at some point, but it was not meant to be. Not that I expected the theory to always hold out. There's only twelve zodiac animals and by the time I'm turn into an old man I definitely expect there to be more than twelve Pokemon generations. Still, I hoped that they would keep it to twelve before doing something different.
The Zodiac Theory has been debunked for a while and no one has really noticed. This is because in the early version of Gold and Silver that was leaked, the Fire starter was (what I assume is) a bear, which isn't on the Zodiac. So this theory was never true, and has been debunked for a couples of years.
I like to imagine the scenario where they had to scrap the bear last minute to begin the chain of every Fire starter being a Zodiac animal, only for them to replace it with a shrew that evolves into a badger
@@deadbedspreadlol no the water starter of Johto was scrapped because it had a lot of similarities to Lapras and the Dragonite line whereas the fire starter line was scrapped because it wasn’t good enough the final evo looks like Arcanine
@PsyBlob It most probably isn't, but peoppe want a reason to "disprove" the theories so they just grab Cyndaquil and say that it isn't a rat or something like that
Fun region idea: One of these theories could apply to each the new mons, regardless of type. A poison type snake, normal type bull, and grass type snake could be used for the zodiac... oh wait, those exist already. Seviper, Tauros, and the Snivy line. Seriously, I think that some mons do have interesting design choices, but they aren't based on anything in particular.
While the whole Zodiac theory was just that, it made sense considering up until Gen 9, all Fire Starters did follow the design. Also, if people really want to stretch the Zodiac theory, the Mayan Zodiac has a crocodile :D
The theories are actually still good if you aren’t overly stingy Grass arent just extinct animals and the like, but more ancient or vulnerable species. As Lynxes are endangered of becoming extinct and there’s also the extinct *Eurasian Lynx* Fire can be Zodiac if you expand beyond China as the Crocodile takes the place of some animals in the Mongolian Zodiac. So really you could more argue that the Fire Startsrs are MYTHICAL creatures over just the zodiac. Charizard is a Drake, Typhlosion is a volcano badger named after Typhon (a volcano creature), Blaziken is a type of fire bird, Infernape is Son Wukong, Emboar is Xu Baji/Pigsy, Delphox is both a sorcerer(ess) and a fire Fox, Inceniroar can be similar to a Rakshasha (a fire tiger), Cinderace is a hare which have many legends (heck it’s a typically cocky type so it could even be the Aesop Hare), and Skeledirge is similar to Coco (a Spanish demon that looks similar to a crocodile) and Day of the Dwad imagery. And water types being more weapon based makes sense if you go into how they fight. Their attacks feel more concentrated and their bodies tend to have weapons. Also Primarina having bombs is because their Aqua bombs are *signature moves*. And Quaqlaval is based on both a dance based combat style and using a giant spinning ring of death as its primary attack. Its more how they fight than just weapons as Swampert is more of a wrestler with its bulky shape. Theories evolve with things, it isn’t a ridgid law
@@deadbedspread I agree, since when ducks and salamandras can walk on land, we all know that they are purely aquatic creatures! And don't even let me start talking about guns being weapons, that's just crazy
I had no reason to deny the zodiac theory until gen 9 because everything did seem to really easily fit, especially recently, but then they added fuecoco and that's what put the nail in the coffin for it all
In my personal opinion I do really enjoy the idea of all the fire starters being based on the chinese animals i do feel like its just a theory and gamefreak never intended that or atleast stopped during gen 9
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Was I right or wrong? I'm sure you'll let me know! Go to nordvpn.com/deadbedspread to get the two year plan with an exclusive deal PLUS 4 EXTRA months! It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30 day money back guarantee!
Yeah you right
Those theories are dumb
@@theprinceofchaos1234 yeah i agree as well
The Zodaic Theory could be still true in a way in that sense Fuecoco seems to be from the Aztec Zodiac, the fire starters as a whole could be a part of any Zodiac Calander that currently exists.
Do you even know the difference between semi.aquatic animals and animals that can swim? Like, it's not because a cat doesn't instataneously die after touching water like a house fly that it is amphibious
If i want to fight for the fire Chinese theory, Crocodile could 100% rep the snake being you know A LIZARD. But these are just theories to me, basic guidelines~ its okay to bend them from time to time!
My personal theory for what all the starters are based on is this. All the grass one are based on plants. All the fire ones are based on fire. And all the water ones are based on water
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Wow, that’s so ingenious!!!
Whoa. Never would have thought of that 🤯
wait…. you might be on to something
godDAMN
Evolutionarily, crocodiles are more closely related to birds than snakes, so clearly Skeledirge is the rooster. 🙃
Considering it forms a Fire Egg in the middle stage that hatches into a sentient fireball bird, not without reason
No skeledirge is the sheep
What The Heck is Blaziken Then?
Obviously
@@SapoWeonN300the dog
Avians are theorised to have evolved from reptiles so all avian staters are reptiles
Reptiles are theorised to have evolved from amphibians so all reptile starters are amphibians
Amphibians = frog
Frog starters = bull frog = oxen
All starters are mammals
Pokemon lay eggs
All Pokemon can be tied to weapons
All starters are semi-aquatic egg laying mammals of action
Every starter is perry the platypus
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
A Pokémon?
*Puts on fedora*
Perry the Pokémon!
Well aCtualLy birds are basically confirmed to have evolved from dinosaurs, which are reptiles.
All true until Poplio joins the chat 😂
@@falcon_arkaigand are so they are
I believed in the Zodiac theory for a while, and saw the other two/three as charming coincidences. But I never expected every Fakemon starter to have to follow it, and when Fuecoco was revealed, I just kinda said, "Oh, guess that's not a thing." The fact that people are still trying to cling to it confuses me, frankly, but I guess I've tried to defend far more outlandish ideas in the past, so I can't look too harshly on people.
As someone who also used to defend the theories, it's sunk cost fallacy - they've spent so long doing it that abandoning it now would make it seem like it was all for nothing (when in fact it would be way nicer for discussion!)
@@deadbedspread Yeah, that's fair. Definitely been there before.
The fact that one starter is not a Zoliac does not mean that the game freak was not inspired by the calendar from the very beginning. They might just change their mind over time
its not a thing *anymore*
Apparently Pokémon Cloud and Soil doesn’t care about it, but the region required a Fire sheep starter. I hear their next region might have a bug for a fire starter
The grass starter theory was wrong from the start:
•Venusaur (Created in 1996)
•Beelzebufo (Was not described until the early 2000s)
Well, there was also Baurubatrachus and other extinct frogs, so all you get is not Beelzebufo.
I remember hearing that the grass starters were moving through evolutionary history. But, that never worked either.
Although I don't believe in the Extinct Grass Starter theory, if I did, I would say that Venusaur is based on a Temnospondyl (an extinct group of amphibians described in the late 19th century)
although the theory is not right (probably), it is quite likely that venusaur's evolutionary line is actually based on extinct animals
@@eddie3910 Well, it has "saur" right there in the name, in all fairness
@@Going4Broke2528 "Saur" is a part of the English translation, Venusaur's name in the original Japanese text when translated to English is literally just "Mysterious Flower"
I was kind of hoping you would put Torterra into the Rabbit section of the zodiac because of the story the tortoise of the hair.
A missed opportunity for real!
I remember hearing the starter theories in gen 6 and thinking they were neat, but only really thought it worked for the first five. And then gen 7 came along and i figured it was stupid because "why would gamefreak limit themselves like that? they'd run out of zodiac signs for the fire types eventually..."
I remember the panic when I first heard the Zodiac theory thinking that there would only be 12 Generations of Pokemon before it ended forever
I asked the same question and was given the argument "Then they just do it again."
to be honest retreading ideas would eventually get boring so maybe it shouldn't be a thing? just how i think about it. the starters most of the time have been limited to fire, grass, and water. except for a few exceptions. why would they intentionally limit their creativity further?
Im not really into any of these theory but imagen if all those theory are actually true but only at the generation where Ash is the Mc in anime and now a new theory will be out
they could continue with other zodiac systems, like the western or the egyptian.
The current theory is that each starter trio has one twink one himbo and one femboy. Like just look at gens 5-9 they all have them
Torterra is my favourite femboy
That's more of a design trend than a theory
@@evagarcia865we all know that the fruity duck is the femboy.
I know what the other terms are, but what's a "twink"?
@@1ce0fspade5just google it
You can make streches for what Fuecoco’s line is, like the ox or snake, but it’s still obviously a crocodile
You misspelled horse
@@deadbedspread and dragon, you forgot that
Stop misspelling horse
Dragonhorsesnakeox
I feel like the reason Cyndaquil is called the "mouse Pokemon" is probably because of how Japanese uses the word ネズミ (nezumi) or a variation of it to refer to any rodent or any small, vaguely mouse shaped mammal such as shrews, hedgehogs or possums. This word "ネズミ" translates to both mouse or rat in English. Japanese equates many animals we consider to be separate like alligators and crocodiles (both ワニ) or apes and monkeys (both サル).
Screw that rule I want to make my fire wolf of legend
If anyone tries to argue with this Zinogre Fanboy I will throw a lion at your house
BUT WOLF IS DOG???1?
@@deadbedspread ok that maybe true but Zinogre needed to be my fire starter thus why it is also got the electric type to it as well
Wait… Pokémon and monster hunter crossover? That sounds amazing
@@roboraptorwolf9726 It’s a project I am planning to do one day I have just been doing the designs in my notebook to make some cool Pokemon and one of the evolution lines involves Valstrax and my water starter starts off as a fish with feet then becomes a gore Magala lookalike then finally evolves into a Shagaru Magala form even though I have a dragon eevolution that’s a Shagaru Magala lookalike.
"If the Pokemon Company and Game Freak are able to express their creativity however they want, then the rest of us should be, too."
The lesson we all needed to hear,. Amen.
If people start quoting me as a defence I'm gonna lose it
I mean that's a bold thing to say about a company that up until LAST YEAR exclusively released clones of the previous game with one (1) new battle mechanic that was removed before each new game.
I just like the idea that instead of the different types of starters following some cohesive pattern across each generation, the starter trio of each generation just follows their own theme (ex: Gen 9 starters based on performers, Gen 8 starters based on entertainment, gen 1 starters are all reptile/amphibian animals)
Gen 6 is rpg classes, fighter, mage, and rogue
@@rockincradilyyyy8489 in rpgs, fighter stands for a martial artist with evasion as its defensive option greninja fits it more since ninjas are ultimately a combination of rogue and fighter, chestnaught real class would be a warrior/knight which are physical and often serves as the tank role which chestnaught clearly is
Gen 8 starters aren't simply "entertainment", they're specifically based on British cultural icons. Remember, Galar is based on Great Britain.
Rillaboom is based on heavy metal drummers, complete with a big bushy hairdo, and Britain is known for being the birthplace of heavy metal. (It also may be based on a famous British commercial of a gorilla playing the drums, or even the band Gorillaz, which is from the UK.)
Cinderace is, of course, a soccer/football player, and Britain has a very strong and intense culture surrounding that sport. Brits love football so much that they'll start fights over their favorite teams and make up songs about the opposing players' criminal charges.
And Inteleon is very much inspired by James Bond, a famous British literary and film character. The James Bond books were written by a British author and, with the exception of Pierce Brosnan, every actor playing him has been from the UK as well.
10:01 Chesnaught would be a shield. It can literally turn its hands into a shield when they're together
More evidence as to how any of the theories can be stretched - I agree!
@@deadbedspread in fact, here's an even further stretch- it's a fighting type, and its dex entry states it could send a truck flying if it ran into it. Therefore, the horse chesnut-knight-creature is a battering ram.
@@MidnightCapricorn2696he's the Juggernaut b*tch!
(Please don't get mad at me I wasn't calling you a b*tch I was just referencing a line from the 3rd X-men movie.)
@@deadbedspread A shield being a weapon isn't a stretch in the slightest. You get some guy with a buckler, and some guy with nunchaku and the nunchaku guy has his skull divided into 50 pieces in like 8 seconds before keeling over dead from brain damage.
@@thepsychobear2362 He's not saying a shield as a weapon is a stretch, he's saying you can stretch the weapons theory to include even more non-water starters
Out of these, I feel like the "Water starters gotta be semi-aquatic" feels like the only one that might be true, but, Mudkip kinda throws a bit of a wrench in that one, considering Axolotls are actually fully aquatic (unless you force them to grow up). I guess Mudskippers aren't, tho.
Even then, I feel like that's logical. That's like saying "Fire starters have to have something to do with heat."
@@addison_v_ertisement1678Like deserts or savanna
The only actual contention is sobble line as chameleons aren't aquatic but they could be basilisk lizards.
Would it make sense if the grass type starters are from areas that are from forests, woods, or jungles cause that’s what I am thinking
@@myphicaldinosaurcreator1867 That's also true for all of the fire and most of the water starters tho
The reason people were against the idea of Fennikin being a dog is because foxes are very unique animals yes they’re classified as canines but they also share a lot of personality and behavior treats from felines I’ve even read that some scientists are asking to have a separate group for foxes because of this
I get that but in a literal sense, foxes are canines in the dog family. They basically chose the second closest thing to a literal dog
@@nashawnlivingston2965 The thing on the Zodiac is a domestic dog though. While Domestic Dogs and Fennec Foxes share common ancestory, they actually aren't directly related, as the Domestic Dox is in the Canini subfamily and Foxes are in the Vulpini subfamily. So no, they aren't even in the same family either.
@@nickdentoom1173 that’s actually a common misconception; both dogs and foxes are part of the family Canidae aka the dog family. Canini (dog like canines) and Vulpini (Fox like canines) are merely tribes within the *subfamily* Caninae (subfamily and family are not the same thing). All living canids are in the same subfamily Caninae and therefore are all considered canine. They separate after subfamily.
In the same way, big cats actually aren’t feline; they’re pantherine
(TLDR; yes, dogs and foxes are in both the same family and subfamily, you were simply referring to their “tribe”)
@@nashawnlivingston2965 wouldn’t the second best thing be a wolf though?
If you think about it, it doesn’t really make sense to call canines “dogs” as dogs literally came from wolves… It’s like calling apes humans because we evolved from apes. Sooo wouldn’t it make more sense to call it wolves (even if they are more so distant cousins to dogs)?
I hope and glad that we are breaking away from those theories and such, gives and adds more creative for anyone tbh, also you could lump in any of the non-starter Pokémon into those theories while you are at it, lol
inb4 the entire Kanto Dex is based on Extinct Animals, the Alola Dex is based on Weapons, and the Paldea Dex is Zodiac Animals!! 🤯🤯🤯
can't wait to see how many pokemon fall under rooster
@@thepizzaman6310I feel like corviknight is going to be thrown under the bus
Your transition skills are unparalleled 😂 I never would have guessed there was one lol
I really appreciate this video and you talking about these design theories. It’s cool to see someone tackling them in such a way that lets people follow the theories if they want or reject them if need be.
I appreciate your work! Keep creating!
It took me 12,678 hours to realise my vision!
Thank you, it's been on my mind for a while now and I was feeling like an informative rant!
@@deadbedspread It was well worth the time and effort! It’s cool to see someone who gives their videos all they’ve got. It’s inspiring! I didn’t think you were ranting too bad lol, I think the theories are good starting points for beginners (like myself) but they shouldn’t be absolute truths that must be followed to the letter or else lol.
I really appreciate your work, man!
Honestly, Fuecoco absolutely destroying the zodiac theory is why I love it.
The best boi
I heard something about the aztech zodiacs
@@The_Corn_Manufacturerhe literally addresses that in the video, existing starters don’t fit the aztec zodiac.
Fuecoco is just a great Pokemon in general.
Fuecoco is fuecoco.
Fuecoco is perfection.
Man. I appreciate this. The "it has to be x or it doesn't count" has been driving me nuts for a long time, as you well know. This was a super fun way to call out the bs for what it is. What a ride.
You're very welcome ;D Besides, even if they are 'rules' - Rules are meant to be broken!
@@deadbedspread finally an acceptable use of that phrase!
I think actuations where it has to be on screen or it doesn’t count in other fandoms
Personally, I believe that you can make starter pokemon however you want. You can follow these theories, not follow these theories or heck, maybe make your own unique theories regarding your starters. Why not switch the theories around like having the grass starter based on a weapon, the fire starter based on a prehistoric creature and the water starter based on an animal from the chinese zodiac. That way you can have repeats with the weapons, extinct species and chinese zodiac but, it's for different starters with different concepts.
I feel like I was really holding onto these theories being correct for the longest time but, as you said with the Paldea starters, yeah they're all a stretch to say the very least. GameFreak likely picked these starters because they thought of cool concepts, not because "Oh Meowscarada is the iberian Lynx, Skeledirge is a snake/bull/horse etc, and Quaquaval is the chakram weapon."
Bottom line, make starters whatever way you want. If people complain, that's their problem not yours.
Classic based SMG comment 😎
Funny you mention swapping the theories to different types, I've been seeing that pop up more and more recently - best example I can think of is ReomaArt (best Grass starter Fakemon I've seen in a loooong time!)
Imagining a boardroom of executives agreeing on the new starters because of those aforementioned 'rules' makes it sound all the more ludicrous!
Absolutely, end of the day, they are YOUR Fakemon, almost like how actual Pokemon are Game Freaks - no one can say what they are and are not!
@@deadbedspread Exactly. And yes, ReomaArts Grass Starter Frogue is awesome. Honestly forgot he actually did this idea until you mentioned it.
I had an idea for a fire starter based on a bear and it was combined with cooking because the bear constellations "aka the big dipper" looked like saucepans and I thought that would be fun to do but, I always gave up on that idea because "tHe BeAr IsNt iN tHe cHiNeSe ZoDiAc."
I'm not an artist, hell i'm pretty medicore when it comes to drawing in general but, I do still love coming up with fakemon ideas in my head. So, when I kept seeing people say "you have to follow these theories in order to be taken seriously" it was soul crushing. I'm so glad you made this video though as when you say it all aloud, yeah the theories for the most part are a stretch
@@smg680technicly it's a variant of the pig like the cat and the bunny.
I do think Decidueye draws partial inspiration from the stilt owl but that’s more to fit with themes of the Alola region, not some “grass starters equal x” theme. The starter trios tend to have some themes tying them together, but it’s more a theme between that trio than a theme across that starter type. And it usually ties into their region’s general, overall themes as a whole.
i knew about the fire zodiac theory but i never knew water and grass also had their own theories
Who knows how many other theories are out there...
Well there's still one theory that have yet to be proven wrong for the Water Starter Theory and it's that all Water Starters are based on animals that are semi-aquatic.
Them being weapons do make sense but I never ride on that theory.
that one just might be true
@@Miguel92398 technically, that theory has also been proved wrong since gen 1. Even though squirtle and wartortle are obviously turtles, blastoise is more of a tortoise, which as stated in the video, cannot swim at all. So by technicality, it can be proven wrong, but it really depends on if you take its name at face value
@@mikomakowski7907 English, yea. But the game is Japanese and Japanese words still classifies Blastoise as a turtle (well kame is both described turtle and tortoise but the fact that Blastoise can go into water and is a water type just points him more of a turtle than a tortoise)
Its design is more turtle than tortoise if you ask me.
I will never get why people though Bulbasaur was based on Beelzebufo, when it was discovered in 2008.
Come on! Everyone knows Gamefreak has a time machine!
@@thejurassicwarewolf3300 They even decided to reference their time machine when they put one in the original Gold and Silver games!
This was a great video! I, too, am a fakemon artist and recently felt pressured into making my water starter into a weapon. It turned out OK, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind.
Thank you! From now on, we make what we wanna make, no arbitrary rules attached!
@DeadBedSpread I agree! Unless it's a fire horse...
Or a water taser...
Or a grass Stegosaurus...
(Joking of course)
@@rafethomas9126 for example: "🤓hey make a water nuclear missile and name it some dumb shit like bomby or something like that 🤓". that is not meant to poke fun at the fakemon artists, its meant to make fun of the theorists
@Marx hey, if someone wants to make Bomby, go for it. Hell, I'll probably give it a like. Maybe just don't pressure others into following these "standards".
You shouldn’t have done that and in all honesty you should have another go at it to make sure you’re happy with it
Funnily enough, Skeledirge could legitimately be considered a second dragon, because there are numerous dragon-like creatures in Iberian folklore that may have been inspired by crocodilians, and there’s a mosaic art piece by Antoni Gaudí called “El Drac”, which literally means “The Dragon”
Beelzebufo was described in 2008, venasaur was created well before that
I mean, while Fennekin is in the Canid family, the Dog on the Zodiac is a domestic one. So Fennekin doesn't count, because it isn't a domestic dog.
Cyndaquil being called the Fire Mouse Pokemon in the Pokedex, i wouldn't put much thought into either, considering the same is true for both Rattata/Raticate and Sandshrew. Neither of them are mice (Sandshrew is based on a shrew and Armadillo, which ain't even rodents).
I actually missed that with Sandshrew, thank you for enlightening me!
Also, the animal that CyndaQUIL is based on is called the "needle-mouse" in Japanese. And since CyndaQUIL has fire instead of QUILS, the name replaces QUILS with a fire related word for the pokedex.
I know this was 6 months ago but I iust want to inform you, there are domesticated foxes
My fire starter is a ghost, my water starter is a dunkleosteus, and my grass starter is a bush disguise. All 3 of these are fully unrelated to the 3 theories you mentioned coincidentally, so that’s nice!
Well, the only theory I currently believe is the "starter connection theory" where each starter trio has a shared theme. I have no idea if it is confirmed though
Gen 1: Genetics/Dinosaurs
Gen 2: Ancient creatures
Gen 3: Unique adaptations
Gen 4: Myths/Legends
Gen 5: Civilizations
Gen 6: (RPG) Classes
Gen 7: Circus/Performance
Gen 8: British Entertainment
Gen 9: Triple Threat
End of the day what really bothered me about all of these theories the fact that it’s limiting creativity you have no idea how many times I’ve seen interesting projects on Instagram and then gets turned off because they try to shoe in the zodiac stater when there’s much better choices out there
Exactly this!
I always felt this was more of an "I want to believe " kind of thing because thematic patterns are really cool but I do agree they can be restricting and people should get to design what they want, personally I love how nowadays they seem to come more packaged in themes like how chesnaugth, Delphox and greninja are based on rpg tropes.
I believed in the Fire Zodiac theory up until around Gen 7. By that point, Fennekin from the previous gen being the Dog was already pretty dubious for some. So while the tabby-esque Litten evolving into the Tiger seemed extremely obvious (especially when you realise the forehead cross ‡ symbol is a very common visual shorthand for the forehead stripes in Japanese cartoon illustrations of tigers), it was still kinda uncertain.
Once Scorbunny debuted and people started calling it the Rabbit of the Zodiac, I was already pretty tired of so many people shoving the theory down others' throats as if it were gospel. Plus I was having ideas for my own fakemon stuff at the time and wanted to defy this "theory" by choosing a non-Zodiac animal for my Fire starter
BOY am I glad Fuecoco exists. I still don't like it compared to the other two though lmao
My issue was with Cyndaquil being the "rat" never worked for me. Hedgehog in Japanese apparently translates to needle mouse. So, there is no reason to assume because it is called the fire mouse pokemon it is a mouse. It's Japanese name may be inspired by the Japanese word for porcupine. And its evolved forms aren't not even based on rodents.
Also, Charizard being the only member of its line that says dragon because didn't work for me. Like the first two in line were done based solely off ONE member of their family. The rest all had the entire line as evidence. It was always weak to me. Like it was an interesting thought experiment but people took it way too literally for me.
It still puzzles me how using a fox to represent the dog sign seems less acceptable to some than using an echidna-turned-badger to represent the rat sign. If you ask me, the earlier gen 'mons seem the most dubious (with fuecoco being a clear late-gen outlier).
I never bought into the zodiac theory. Every justification for the edge cases (and Typhlosion, who doesn't fit at all) felt like reductive thinking from people who knew nothing of the culture surrounding the zodiac being used.
The Water starters kind of need to be amphibious so they can have main characters actually use them in the anime. Think about how often Misty actually got to use Goldeen or Horsea. That's why they gave her Poliwag and Corsola in later seasons. Ash's Lapras was also pretty much only used as transport between islands, and would probably get zero screentime if he took it to Johto.
Mudkip and Sobble are obvious theory busters, as axolotls are fully aquatic unless you force them to metamorphose (the fact that they managed to make a fully aquatic animal viable for TV series use and humanization shows that they could make a fish starter Pokémon if, or likely when, they want to, they just haven't shown such desires yet), while both chameleons and basilisk lizards are fully terrestrial.
@@bubbykins4864 I thought Sobble was a chameleon? But yeah Mudkip does fit. I figured axolotls would come on land a good bit since they have legs. Though that could still have helped Mudkip, since I imagine it's easier to give something puppy legs if it already has legs to replace.
That said, Cetottle is a fully terrestrial whale, so they could definitely make a fish with legs.
@@metleon I mentioned both possible reptilian inspirations to show that the list shown for the "semi-aquatic starter" route debunks itself twice.
As much as I used to defend the Fire Zodiac theory, I always conceded that there were two major flaws to it.
1. They would have run out of animals to use as basis for the designs. (The only animals of the Chinese Zodiac not yet used are the Ox, the Snake, the Goat, and the Horse) Which leads me into…
2. We already have fire horses with the Ponyta line. Unless they were to do something unique with a horse themed fire type starter line, such as using a mythical creature like the Centaur or the Pegasus, there’d be little reason to retread old ground like that.
To be fair, gen 1 had 2 fire-type fox pokémon, yet gen 6 still gave us the fennekin line.
Not that I'm hoping for another fire horse line as starters, but it's not as if that sort of thing is unprecedented.
Could be a Universal Zodiac. For example Chinese, Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Brazilian, Ect. So the Zodiac theory can still work
The Fennekin deniers always made absolutely no sense to me so thanks for pointing that out! Also DUDE this has definitely made me rethink design tropes in Pokemon.
Next they'll be gatekeeping based on the specific breed of dog - Gen 9 completely snapped me out of what I thought I knew, so glad I could share the realisation!
oh hey i watch this guy thats cool 👍
@PragMagik to some degree I do agree with Fennekin being the dog, but compared to other canines fennec foxes are not very dog like. Fennec foxes in my opinion look a lot like chihuahuas, but I don’t mean any harm because I’m talking about a digital fox. Still adore your content.
Actually, it's based on actual folklore treating foxes and dogs very differently. In addition, calling Fennekin a dog is cheating because it is highly improbable that the Jade Emperor didn't invite Fox. As if _that_ wasn't enough, Zodiac conspiracists label Litten a tiger. Cat lost solely because Rat cheated.
@@bubbykins4864 Not necessarily though if you read or even watched the new Fruits Basket anime the cat was the technical first since it went to the Jade Emperor/God and the JE/G sent invitations to the others. So the cat could have been the founder of the whole Zodiac Party
For Decidueye it was easy to actually point out that it was clearly based off a Pueo, a Hawaiian owl.
The Ghost type comes in because in Hawaiian myth they were physical forms of Ancestor Spirits.
0:12 I’d personally say that Hau and Nemona picked weaker starters because they wanted more of a challenge, Hop picked the weaker one because he is just really not smart
Hop picking the weaker starter was just a case of big ego no skill.
They actually pick the weaker starter now because It’s good gameplay design. A young kid is likely to use all the moves a pokemon has once. And by choosing the move that matches their type and being given some text from the rival, they immediately learn that there are type advantages, and do so in a reinforcing positive manner. Really good gameplay design in my opinion
@@ZZeta83 I meant as a headcannon
@@ZZeta83 ALSO THAT WAS 6 MONTHS AGO! 6!
i saw somebody saying that skeledirge represent the snake because "crocodile is a reptile and snake is also a reptile, so it count"
CHARIZARD IS LITERALLY A REPTILE LIZARD, AND YET. IT REPRESENT THE DRAGON
This is an amazing video and such a refreshing opinion to see on it all. None of the gate-keeping and bullying about people's creations 'matching' Pokémon's style or theme's is okay. Let people make their dream pokemon and share their wonderful ideas without bias on how it 'should' look or work.
Great video and thank you so much from someone actively working on their own region and fakemon designs this is super helpful to hear.
Thank you so much! Obviously there are still tips that people can provide to help a Fakemon look more convincing, but these 'rules' were never mandatory.
Good luck with it, and you're welcome!
Fuecoco is one of my favorite starters partially because he tells the zodiac theory to pack sand,, but also because he's just a lil guy with no thoughts behind those gentle eyes.
I always took the Fire-starter zodiac and the extinct Grass-starter theories as not a 100% thing, but rather a part of possible inspirations when designing them, not self-imposed hard rules they must follow.
Also, everyone’s forgetting that bulbasaur is based on a frog
The best part about the starters theory being false is that now I can expect the fire bear starter I've wanted since gen 7 :P
I want all three to be bears!
@psyblob0054 the bear would obvioudly be the rooster
I don't even think the "no starter must be fully aquatic" theory has something to do with emotions but probably more to do with the fact these pokemon are most definitely gonna show up in the anime and must be able to move in both land and water bc not every episode is close to a body of water
I understand the grass & water themes of Extinct/Prehistoric Animals & Weapons.
But I personally have a theory that all of the fire starters are based on mythology and Folklore as opposed to the zodiac.
-Charizard: Western Dragon & Salamander myths
-Typhlosion: Mujina (badger Yokai) (H-Typhlosion) is also is the Night Parade of 1000 demons)
-Blaziken: Basan (Fire breathing chicken Yokai) or the Karura (Essentially a Phoenix friend of Garuda)
-Infernape: Sun Wu Kong
-Emboar: Zhu Baije (Pigsy)
-Delphox: Kitsune and western depictions of witches.
-Incineroar: Heracles (Both we’re super strong wrestlers & the guy choked an indestructible lion & wore its pelt for the rest of the myth: pretty close to a tiger pelt.) there are also were tigers from India but that’s a stretch in my opinion.
-Cinderace: The white rabbit (Chinese myth) and the Hare of Inaba (Japanese myth) but there was also an Aztec legend about a rabbit being kicked/thrown at the moon so it could start moving.
-Skeledirge: Coco/Cuca is a bogeyman equivalent in Spain & Portugal. Basically a crocodile looking at figure who kidnaps children at night. (There is also a The Mexican Calavera (the colored skulls) and the Calaca (the entire skeleton, usually the imagery of the dead in general) for inspiration, (Dia De los Muertos being the Mexican hybridization of local practices and All saints day, a Catholic holiday brought from Spain).
Now I know the whole point of this video is to avoid gatekeeping they come on artists from having to stick to the previously established tropes: but I think it helps those who are stagnant on it to simply branch out from the trope by expanding upon it.
Like you said everyone originally thought that the grass starters were all reptiles until GEN six when the extinct theory got traction.
I just figured I’d share the connection I made with the fire starters. Since it helped with crearing more diverse starter concepts
That's an interesting way of looking at it, thank you for sharing!
I think that is cool and I will keep that in mind when designing fakemon starters
By that stretch you can design literally anything because everything has a mythological counterpart. Lapras is nessie Ho-oh is literally named after the Japanese phoenix, lycanrock is a werewolf. Nearly every mon I can personally link back to a myth. Mythology is a great theme for a Pokémon, which is why MOST of them can be traced to mythology, but calling it a starter theme is like saying all starters have to be alive and have eyes.
@@folfelit Well I know but the theme for the other two starters are so vague as well. Pretty much anything alive today has had some form of a prehistoric ancestor, and pretty much anything on earth can swim or We have come up with so many ways to kill each other with weaponry over the centuries but they’re endless potential for those two, So One equally bag for the fire starters makes a lot of sense to me
A weapon is any object used to harm creatures that are sentient:
Jacket from hotline miami
Even that sponsor segment was entertaining~ Another fantastic video from DBS! I'm a fan of the grass starter theory, but you totally proved that yes, animals evolve and ancestors go instict no matter the animal 😂 THANK YOU for talking about the Chinese zodiac theory lol, that one drives me up a wall. . . even though Fuecoco is a horse obvs 🙄🙃
Mission accomplished! 😎
Thank you so much!!
This feels like a good wake up call for everyone in communication to be a bit more open minded about there through of Pokémon! (As honestly I fort the grass one made the most sense for while until now) Well done on making a fun an entertaining video I’m sure has open the minds of millions! and good to see you getting sponsors!
Your optimism that this will be shared with millions is infectious! Thank you!
@@deadbedspread no worries mate! Glad I can give you a some optimism for the video progress!
THey just started following the pattern for the first 5 generations and then pokemon just gave up and started new things.
I just never got any of these.
Grass: ok, this one kinda makes kinda sense, but eh... I thought Bulbasaur was just... a Frog.
Water: a brass knuckle? For a Crocodile? Not something about their GIANT ASS SUPER JAWS? And a fan for Swampert? Eh? And how is Primarina a mace?
Fire: Typhlosion. Just, Typhlosion. It's whole line. How the fuck is it a Mouse or Rat? Cyndaquil is an Echidna, which is more related to a Platypuss than a Mouse or Rat, and Quilava and Typhlosion are Honey Badgers, which are Mustelids. What's a Mustelid? Otters, Weasels, and Stoats. NONE OF THESE ARE RELATED TO MICE OR RATS. Also, yes, I just confirmed that there is canonically a water/fire type ancestor to both Samurott and Typhlosion. "What about it's catagory?" Pokemon Catagories aren't actually what animal they are. Sometimes they'll something like "it's a Shrew Pokemon" and it'll actually be a Pangolin.
If we want to be technical, bulbasaur does use its whips in Pokemon unite, with the obvious move, "vine whip"
Yeah looking back those theories don’t really work especially since starters have a generation theme and not a overall theme, like for example gen 6 starters have a rpg classes theme and gen 7 starters have a circus theme, bobbs have a TH-cam short video about and a full video where he adds another starter to each gen based on the starter themes
You know that the starters can have more than only one theme, right?
@@tpfoxCastro yes like how gen 1 starters have a household pet theme and a period of history theme with charmander line being a lizard and middle ages, squirtle being a turtle and Morden era and bulbasaur being a frog and ancient times, i used gen 6 because they do only have 1 theme and i did think gen 7 had 1 theme but it has 2 being circus theme and classical literature, watch any of the 2 videos I mentioned to see the themes
New theory: Every starter is actually the Ox
Nice to see more people callout the "rules" people make
I'm sorry it took me this long
I like the idea like it's a trope with early grass types or how fire lasted so long, but it shouldn't restrict design just give a fast inspiration for mono fire types. I love Skeledirge's design and wouldn't have it any other way, it'd be harder to fit a horse to that or pivot everything for a snake or ox. Grass could just be a coincidence but I like to think half of them are either reptiles or early mammals/extinct owl. Water is clearly just any amphibious animal because it's easier to give personality to a mammal or reptile that travels with you, that should be written down somewhere since it is integral to the marketing.
I didn't know about the other two theories. Maybe I heard about the Water type weaponry one once by in one ear out the other.
Anyway onto the subject. I *hate* the Zodiac theory it's so annoying and for what?
Cyndaquil is nowhere near a rat 🙄
My theory is that the generation starters have a theme, example: greninja, chesnaught, and delphox being based off dnd classes, it allows more flexibility that way if you dont want to follow specific animal guidelines, but you can still have some sort of order
I'm so glad someone made this video, I'm tired of the instant pattern believers tryna make me think a flat reptile boi is a horse.
I've been saying the "every animal that exists today had extinct relatives" point for so long, I'm so glad someone thought likewise aghhhh
I'm so glad for the nice comment, thank you!
I never really put much stock in the Zodiac theory, and I'd never even heard of the other two. When I came up with the starters for my fan game, my mindset going in was "pets." Hence, we have a Grass-type mouse that evolves into a rat that evolves into a wolverine, a Fire-type newt that evolves into a Gila Monster that evolves into a Komodo dragon, and a Water-type puppy that evolves into a dog that evolves into a... bigger dog (my line of thought there was "water dogs," a type of gundog that specializes in aquatic/semi-aquatic game).
I feel like the zodiac theory was true, but Gamefreak just decided to move away from that idea.
The water=weapons theory is def bs, tho.
TECHNICALLY a male crocodile is called a bull.... just saying for all the people who cling onto the zodiac theory like I do 😂
What I find weird is that out of all the animals on this earth they had to pick cats and crocodiles twice each 🤔
2:17 Birds are dinosaurs & thus reptiles & bulbasaur kinda looks like an amphibian though…I think they’re supposed to be a dicynodont, which is a proto mammal so uh….that theory was always wrong.
Birds being dinosaurs is arguable, but what the shit do you mean they're reptiles???
@@ARandomMinecraftVillagerunder the modern system of organism classification, organisms are grouped into monophyletic clades consisting of an ancestor, and all of said ancestors descendants. In order to construct a clade that contains all of the living traditional reptiles(lizards including snakes, turtles and crocodilians) birds must be included in the clade since they are the descendant of the last common ancestor of the clade, given crocodilians share a more recent common ancestor with birds then with any other reptile alive today, and turtles share a more recent common ancestor with the archosaurs(crocodilians and birds) then with the lepidosaurs(lizards including snakes).
the part when he said "nerdy sounds: which called bulls, inteleon is long and lizardy so it must be a snake and quaxly is a bird so it must be a bird" made me laugh so hard it almost killed me💀💀💀💀💀💀
my favorite fun fact about the whole zodiac thing is that in the story of how the animals were assigned to the zodiac, there was a Cat involved who tried and failed to enter the running bc it was cheated by the Rat, thereby making Litten's presence in the theory a paradox
Aren't there some places where the tiger or rabbit signs are called the cat sign instead?
The Litten is based on tigers, tho.
Wait... Wasn't the prehistoric Bulbasaur Dinosaur discovered WAAAAY after Pokemon was even a thing? It literally got its name BECAUSE Bulbasaur already existed, then how was Bulbasaur based on an extinct dinosaur if the dinosaur wasn't discovered until after Bulbasaur was created.
My current theory is that each starter Pokémon is the first Pokémon the player gets in the gam. Truly insane
bro you are smarter than enstine
I do think Charizard not being an eastern dragon is a bit relevant. When they were making the first 2 gens they were obviously not think about overarching themes for the starters that would last at least 12 games. Gen 2 was originally going to have a bear fire starter (I was told years ago "bears count as the tiger" lmao), and Cyndaquil is based on a hedgehog/porcupine both of which are called "needle mouse" in Japanese so they described it as a "fire mouse" ("fire hog" might have gotten the point across better in English, but then people would be saying it counted as the pig lol).
You could argue that while they obviously didn't plan this for Gen 1/2 that they did for every Gen afterwards and retroactively made them fit. But I don't think that is the case either, I think Gen 3-5 just happen to line up by coincidence (this is when the theory was made) and you have to squint to make Gen 1/2 to work. Fennekin then throws a wrench into it, yeah foxes are related to dogs but the zodiac is specifically a domesticated dog. Fuecoco just finally completely shatters the idea that had a shaky foundation to start with.
Starters tend to be based on common animals kids will know about and the Chinese Zodiac is made of common animals, which is probably why so many happen to line up and confirmation bias kicks in. Having Infernape and Emboar back to back being based on Chinese mythology is probably the main cause of people thinking there was some kind of Chinese theming with the starters. And why would the fire starters be the only one with this special theming? (I won't entertain of Grass/Water starter "theories" cause of how ridiculous they are, which you already demonstrated lol)
It's also worth mentioning that the Chinese Zodiac has a fixed element system and a rotating every 2 years element system, it makes no sense they would exclusively be fire type. It's really just Infernape and Emboar being based on Chinese myth why people try to connect all of them to the zodiac.
Also they talk about design inspirations all the time, especially the starters and some of their themes, if any of these theories are right (especially the zodiac one) we would know for certain by now after nearly 30 years.
'starter pokemon are pokemon that you start with'
thanks for another banger 10/10
i did enjoy the rest of the video too so 10/10 for the other 17:10 too
We love to see it, you're welcome!
Heres my thing with the zodiac fire guys, i see it as less of a pattern to guess the next starter, but a crutch to help fakemon artists design their own fire starter without the hassle of finding and researching a unique animal to base one on.
Feraligatr is actually a Rooster for Crocodiles are more closely related to Birds then Snakes and probably Dragons
This is the most convincing argument lol
Ya know. A biome theory could almost work for the water and grass starters. Almost every grass type and almost every water type are based off of an animal that come from a different biome. Only issue for Grass types is that Decidueye and Sceptile would both come from a foresty biome and both Popplio and Piplup would come from arctic water biomes. Unless you count seals as coming from cold beaches.
I've always liked the theories but never held it to a "rule standard" if I was running into an artist block or an idea block I would use those as a form of inspiration but never gatekeep people for what they do. I do not follow the pokemon criteria when making fakemon because its what you think wprks for you
You might be the only person with a brain in this comment section, congratulations
One theory I believe about starters is all water starters can easily walk on land. While Popplio pushing it back a little, sea lions often spend time on land and don't seem to struggle to travel on land.
it looks goofy, but yeah, sea lions can traverse solid ground decently
they are ALL horses
This was an awesome video. I had heard all of these theories floating around forever, and it's great to hear someone talk about how they don't work in the echo chamber that is the internet. While I didn't necessarily gatekeep or adamantly accept those theories, at least not intentionally, I did find the Fire Zodiac theory and Grass Extinct Animal theories at least believable, but I never fully got on board with the Water Weapon theory because as you say in the video theres only like 5 of the 9 that even sort of work with the theory. This is the first I've heard of Feraligatr being Brass Knuckles, I've seen more arguments for it being claw weapons like Wolverine or Vega from Street Fighter or like the claws on chains thing from martial arts movies.
I'll be honest, I thought this video was going to be talking about the other starter theories, that each set of starters has an internal theme with each other. Its generally said that Gen 4 is a mythology theme of Island Turtle, Sun Wukong, and Poseidon, Gen 5 being nobility based with each starter looking like it could be part of a foreign noble house, I believe more specifically it's supposed to be French, Chinese, and Japanese, Gen 6 being standard D&D or RPG classes of Fighter or Knight, Mage, and Rogue, Gen 7 being a circus theme or entertainment theme with an Archer/Ringmaster, Wrestler/Strongman/Tiger that jumps through flaming hoops, and Singer/Clown/Seal that balance the ball on its nose, Gen 8 being common UK theming or also sort of an entertainment theme with Punk Rock/Music in general, Soccer (or Football)/Sports in general, and MI6 Agent/Hunter/Actor, and Gen 9 I don't recall off hand, but I think its also an entertainment theme and also a Spanish/Latin theme with Stage Magic/Iberian Lynx, Music/Dia De Los Muertos, and Dance/Caporeira. There are ones that float around for Gens 1-3 as well but I don't necessarily agree with them or see how they work. Its definitely something to look into though if you want to make a sequel to this video.
Thank you! The starter themes (the individual comparisons per Generation) while not being confirmed iirc, are still much more solid than these theories - however anything before Gen 4 is definitely a stretch, so maybe it's still worth taking a look
@@deadbedspread you're welcome, and thank you for even at least considering my suggestion.
8:21 "the Weaponized gay agenda" lmao
I’m really glad to see the ending part of this because I’ve also been involved in the Pokemon fandom and fakemon creation for like over fifteen years now on and off and both received and seen criticism that a fan starter was ‘wrong’ for not following the theories (though the water=weapon one I feel I only saw post gen 7 which is funny as that should’ve been the generation to utterly kill it when the water starter was a clown opera singer) which has long since made me hate them even as just fandom fun
I was once in a reddit argument about Fennekin being a dog zodiac, and someone said “ah yes, fox go woof”. Foxes go woof, search it up.
Foxes actually go EEEAAAAHAGGGHHHHHH!!!!
Wait, you know what the fox says?
Foxes a lot of sounds. And yeah they do woof. And scream. And howl. And cry like a human baby
Foxes sound terrifying. Also Cheetahs meow just like domestic cats, so cute.
@@falcon_arkaig cheetahs also chirp
Gen 10 Fire Horse...
Ponyta crying in the corner
Let me just say at 5:08, you might be onto something about Delphox being based on a dire wolf.
Foxes weren't around the same time dire wolves were. They evolved a few thousand years later.
the world when fuecoco was added:
**Matpat sounds stops**
10:20 no the flower is a bomb
It's actually a flower
@@deadbedspread its a flower bomb.
I started following you ever since I saw your "fuecoco is a horse" short and this video is a great follow up. The bit at the end was awesome! Keep up the great work!
Glad to see it, thank you!
Or some of them could have been true for a number of gens but they just chose to stop because 25 years of following a cool but limiting rule were too constraining.
Please explain which one you think was true for a time.
@PsyBlob how does a fox and a croc fit into the chinese zodiac?
@PsyBlob the chinese zodiac doesn't have canid and inspiration for dragons, it has dog and dragon.
If you try to make it fit you can make everything fit.
I do believe in the Zodiac theory and I've believed it as far back as the fifth to sixth generation. That said, time is the ultimate agent of change. Whether the theory was right or wrong at some point doesn't matter. As time advances the people in charge of making the games change. The game directors are not the same. The art directors are different. Folk get hired, retire, and move up every year. They suddenly decide that in Gen VI a new form of evolution will be added, in gen VII there won't be gym battles, in gen IX the protagonist will be a student in a open world game. Even if there was a tradition to do the Starters in a certain way in the past, future developers are not necessarily beholden to keep up that tradition. At the same time they can go back to it if they so wish.
Understanding all of this, it does sadden me that Fuecoco breaks the mold. I was hoping that it would turn into a Basilisk at some point, but it was not meant to be. Not that I expected the theory to always hold out. There's only twelve zodiac animals and by the time I'm turn into an old man I definitely expect there to be more than twelve Pokemon generations. Still, I hoped that they would keep it to twelve before doing something different.
The Zodiac Theory has been debunked for a while and no one has really noticed. This is because in the early version of Gold and Silver that was leaked, the Fire starter was (what I assume is) a bear, which isn't on the Zodiac. So this theory was never true, and has been debunked for a couples of years.
I like to imagine the scenario where they had to scrap the bear last minute to begin the chain of every Fire starter being a Zodiac animal, only for them to replace it with a shrew that evolves into a badger
@@deadbedspreadlol no the water starter of Johto was scrapped because it had a lot of similarities to Lapras and the Dragonite line whereas the fire starter line was scrapped because it wasn’t good enough the final evo looks like Arcanine
Bro, why do you think that they were scrapped?
@@tpfoxCastroread my other comment in this thread
@PsyBlob It most probably isn't, but peoppe want a reason to "disprove" the theories so they just grab Cyndaquil and say that it isn't a rat or something like that
Fun region idea:
One of these theories could apply to each the new mons, regardless of type. A poison type snake, normal type bull, and grass type snake could be used for the zodiac... oh wait, those exist already. Seviper, Tauros, and the Snivy line.
Seriously, I think that some mons do have interesting design choices, but they aren't based on anything in particular.
While the whole Zodiac theory was just that, it made sense considering up until Gen 9, all Fire Starters did follow the design.
Also, if people really want to stretch the Zodiac theory, the Mayan Zodiac has a crocodile :D
The "what kind of animal is eevee?" debate is probably where the fury at calling Fenekin a dog comes from. Lotta drama to be found there lol
The theories are actually still good if you aren’t overly stingy
Grass arent just extinct animals and the like, but more ancient or vulnerable species. As Lynxes are endangered of becoming extinct and there’s also the extinct *Eurasian Lynx*
Fire can be Zodiac if you expand beyond China as the Crocodile takes the place of some animals in the Mongolian Zodiac. So really you could more argue that the Fire Startsrs are MYTHICAL creatures over just the zodiac. Charizard is a Drake, Typhlosion is a volcano badger named after Typhon (a volcano creature), Blaziken is a type of fire bird, Infernape is Son Wukong, Emboar is Xu Baji/Pigsy, Delphox is both a sorcerer(ess) and a fire Fox, Inceniroar can be similar to a Rakshasha (a fire tiger), Cinderace is a hare which have many legends (heck it’s a typically cocky type so it could even be the Aesop Hare), and Skeledirge is similar to Coco (a Spanish demon that looks similar to a crocodile) and Day of the Dwad imagery.
And water types being more weapon based makes sense if you go into how they fight. Their attacks feel more concentrated and their bodies tend to have weapons. Also Primarina having bombs is because their Aqua bombs are *signature moves*. And Quaqlaval is based on both a dance based combat style and using a giant spinning ring of death as its primary attack. Its more how they fight than just weapons as Swampert is more of a wrestler with its bulky shape.
Theories evolve with things, it isn’t a ridgid law
I love watching pokemon fans complain about pokemon fans
The grass starters being extinct animals still can hold up....
But the other ones are just starting to crumble :|
They've been crumbling for a real long time
dry bones sound
@@deadbedspread it can still work....
Some can be a stretch but it can still work
@@deadbedspread I agree, since when ducks and salamandras can walk on land, we all know that they are purely aquatic creatures! And don't even let me start talking about guns being weapons, that's just crazy
I mean as explained in the video every living creature has an extinct ancestor 🤷🏻♂️
I had no reason to deny the zodiac theory until gen 9 because everything did seem to really easily fit, especially recently, but then they added fuecoco and that's what put the nail in the coffin for it all
Everything is a bull
ESPECIALLY the theories!
In my personal opinion
I do really enjoy the idea of all the fire starters being based on the chinese animals i do feel like its just a theory and gamefreak never intended that or atleast stopped during gen 9
i am the first like and comment
We love to see it
@@deadbedspreadspeak for yourself
@@Ditto13248 what do mean by that?