Playing into comps that are strategically advantageous against you makes you a better player because it forces you to think about the game so much more. You can then hardwire those skills so that they become second nature when playing other heroes. I appreciate this series a lot because I've never been a fan of swapping just because it's easier.
@H4VOK_YT true. Also the baseline for playing Doom successfully is very high. It's kind of mandatory for you to know roll outs and map knowledge has to be very high. You're not gonna throw all that knowledge away just for one character swap
@@H4VOK_YTnah it's because doom players suffer from depression because of how their hero is useless one day, strong the next day (on repeat), and has around 14 quadrillion bugs. My dudes fighting through mental illness on their otp
Found your channel from a Flats video, up until recently i've been a super casual player, occasionally playing with friends in ranked but enjoying quickplay more often. Finding your videos and realising how competitive this game can get has me wanting to improve even more and take the game a little more serious. Aiming for high platinum at the moment thanks for the inspiration to get better :)
Zen is one of those characters in the game that can outplay pretty much anything that comes at him if you're good enough. He can outpoke snipers, punish dives, and deter brawls from running at him because of discord, right click and kick.
Please do more of this! Fantastic content, and it’s teaching a crazy amount about rotations and how to counter them! Really enjoyable to watch, please please do more.
It's funny I've found that when I'm having a rough time and go to counter pick we'll usually end up losing, but when I stop myself and stay on my character I'm able to build up a decent ult or 2 that greatly helps get us a win. Sometimes you just gotta calm down and lock in lmao
i feel like these videos need to be people in the same rank, who actually main the heroes you make them play. Especially with ball, Sombra and Tracer. Those characters have pretty unique play styles and are hard to swap to at high ranks if you don't normally play them. Like a Rein player can swap to Zarya or Ram a lot easier than ball because pathing is similar. But ball has a lot of specific grapple spots. And someone who plays Cassidy can swap to an Ashe or Sojourn relatively easily because they set up on similar angles and as long as you can aim, you'll get some sort of value. But if you don't know where to set up as sombra and tracer, you can get literally zero value
This series has been really insightful! Can you make one for Wrecking Ball? I'd be really interested in seeing the workarounds as I am currently struggling to figure out what I could be doing better.
I have to say I really like that Sombra is not perma invis anymore while still retaining the ability to go invis, she feels so much easier to track now that you know that she can only be out of sight for a few seconds. While the video wasn't focused on her, we could definitely notice how much easier it was to know where the Sombra was. She is definitely not good right now, I think she needs a buff to her spread to be able to participate in the fight outside of her assassination but I find this design much healthier overall. I also would like to see interactions changes with hack, hacking Ball form, pilodrive, slam, punch and winston jump should not cancel the ability, they should change these to transformation abilities so they stay active after hack. Hack feels useless right now outside of fucking over very specific heroes, I think its value should be spread more evenly to be effective against more heroes yet not broken against any hero. They also need to get rid of opportunist, Sombra should win dual taking advantage of the hacking effect, not instantly delete someone out of nowhere with no counterplay.
Love your videos, can you do a wrecking ball one. Particularly going against Mei and Brigitte. I usually can play around one of these, but both are difficult. I typically play quick play because my friend does not have a pc, and I don’t enjoy playing without him. I feel like anytime I show any sort of competency the enemy team instantly swaps to at least these two. They either run through my team because I’m on ball and can’t frontline, or just sit there and wait for me to engage so I can’t get any picks. Thanks!
the problem is sustain creep, it hurts when you do 1200+ damage(only squishes) and still no kill confirmed , tracer. sure i am doing what i am supposed to by distracting and baiting cooldowns but it is not fun when your damage keeps getting healed. hate the changes to increase heath size and buffing support to bail everyone out of their mistakes.
Damn, like watching myself! havent played much OW2 but got into it this season. Current diamond 3 with 70%winrate and loving it. Got alot of value from flanks with trans IF my trance isnt needed for other ults like blade, grav, etc
I have a few criticisms Counter swapping is, was and always will be a thing in this game. There will always be bad and good or neutral matchups. It all depends on what circumstances you're in, Are you a good enough player to outplay your counters? Are your teammates able to cover for your weaknesses? Is the enemy team on the same skill level as you are? Believe it or not, With good enough skill you could outplay anyone on your hero, Which seems to me that this is the message this video is trying to spread. A good enough player on Sombra, Winston, Ball, Genji, any dive hero will successfully take you out every time, Same goes for you. If you're a good enough Zen player you could survive them and win (assuming realistic circumstances, if they all dive you at once you're straight up dead without your ult) In the video you didn't really consider doing it in a random lobby where you won't have a group, You're matched with players of your skill level on both your team and the enemy team. You played with people that are all considerably lower than your skill level. If I was a Master player playing even Lifeweaver I'll always outplay players in gold/silver/bronze no matter what (again assuming reasonable circumstances), Which is what I'm seeing from the video. You're not playing against good enough players. Sure they played heroes that did give them an edge, But counter swapping doesn't guarantee kills. Basically, If you tried to apply this video in an actual comp lobby with similar skillful players you'd be at a huge disadvantage and the outcome would've been vastly different.
I feel like since Zen deals enough damage and has enough range that as long as you take good angles you can outplay divers. I think counter swapping matters more on tanks, because they have less poke generally, and are forced to the front, which is usually more contested space. I don’t think play initiating tanks into your counters is fun. There are other situations where tanks have no agency and must swap, unless you are just better
I played pretty much zen only (maybe 10% juno) to master 4. Currently at 80% winrate with him, he’s such a great charactar. I feel like he is the only character that can actually make the tanks kill able. Discord orb is an insane ability.
I played Winston into Mauga, Zen, Bastion (Ashe, Kiri) as a last ditch effort and won. Then I did it again. And again. I'm currently 3-0 into such a comp.
The only issue with this "experiment" is that players aren't playing like they would in a regular competitive game. Subconsciously, everyone knows that Zen is the focus of the video. The enemy team will try harder to get him, while the allies will try harder to protect him, which is somewhat detrimental to some of the players' decision-making.
You can shield off the healing meant for Orisa depending on her back line and when Fortify is over you can charge her into your team so she can die. But that requires good positioning and shield management. Also may be map dependent but you can use your charge to get to places faster to prevent losing a lot of health or shield health.
THANKYOU. FUCKING THANKYOU. I HAVE BEEN SCREAMING FOR MONTHS, THAT TRACER/SOMBRA IS NOT A COUNTER. NOR IS BALL. it's a matter of positioning and gamesense, and along with your mechannical skill to punish the people who come after you.
By that logic, nothing is a counter to anything since if you are much better than the enemy ofc you can win. I'd like to see Spilo do this in a GM comp lobby or high elo scrim first. "just be better" doesn't really work if you are playing against good players or even pro players. Zen is good with and vs Ball, but only if the enemy ball keeps going in solo or Zen has help.
brig vs widow simple don't peek her pharah vs brig only your team can save you rein: why are you even that close to him ana:how? queen and junkrat will be accepted the rest is all playstyle adjustment
Counters do exists, it's just that there are no hard counters in the game. Yes we all know that skill is the most important thing but lets not act like advantages don't exist. The majority of the losses in counterswap come from people not knowong the characters. If the enemy team has a DVA 1 trick with 1,000 hours then my 20 hour Zarya is not going to beat her. But if I had 1,000 hours on Zarya then it would be a completely different story
Another thing people do when picking counters is that they get tunnel vision on the person they are trying to counter (usually tanks) and a lot of the time you can just outplay the counter by not engaging with them and keeping your distance while they are trying to chase you around.
Coming back to this when I'm able to watch it on my tv, don't be discouraged by the click off rate stats. Also commenting to boost in the algorithm. I live for Zen content there's only like 2 dedicated Zen main content creators so we're starved over here.
Imma be honest all those counters don't even feel like counters against zenyatta in masters. You know what weirdly counters Zenyatta? I flying fking junkrat in the air at mach speed to 2 shot your ass and a constantly flanking venture that one shots.
Well yeah i suppose if you just hit every shot with perfect accuracy and went for characters with high crit values. Mei, widow, hanzo, illiari ect. Cant see anyone but a good tank be abl2 to counter if you just keep clicking heads lol
Disagree about the widow, her vision is too limited to keep the accuracy so as soon as you approach your proper skill level it'll get immensely harder to outplay all the dive as she's burstable before she can react. A small caveat about Mei too, as she can be outranged on certain maps, nearly nullifying her impact. The others you listed - yea
Right. The problem is when their mechanics and gameplay are better than yours. It’s usually the better players on the other team that recognize Zens strengths, and counter pick.
No it proves that most complaints from low elo players is basically just a "skill issue" You'll se a dva complaining about zarya while playing in Gibraltar simple "skill issue"
@@Bad3abdul He should do it against high level players if he really wants to prove the point. Obviously anybody with more than 2 brain cells can beat low elo playes doesnt matter who they are playing, now lets see it against korean pros, atleast earn the "hardest matchup" clickbait playing against low elo players will never be a hard matchup
This is just disingenuous man, try and play ball for a damnn week and say that again. U cant play around cooldowns when 5 of the enemy team are literally there to counter you. As the tank YOU WILL NOT HAVE FUN when all they do,is make sure u cant play the damn game. I go in the first time, sombra hack, the secondtime brig boop/bap immo/sleep. The thrid time the first time cooldowns are back. Guess its just waste util, great gameplay
No one said one can't play into counters. just the sheer amount of knowledge and resilience it takes from a player to do that consitantly is too much if we're talking 50+ matches.
this is why games like paladins never really took off while overwatch 1 was popping off. if you don't have a phd in paladins and you don't play the right counters with the right card setup in ranked you're getting screamed at before the match even starts.
Widow ash are worse for zen imo, too easy a target for the super long range without a shield tank making maintaining discord difficult. Ball is actually weak to zen in many cases because he doesn’t react well to kick imo
I played pretty much zen only (maybe 10% juno) to master 4. Currently at 80% winrate with him, he’s such a great charactar. I feel like he is the only character that can actually make the tanks kill able. Discord orb is an insane ability.
this was BEFORE the Sombra rework, it's even easier to track her rotations now!
Some constructive feedback: please put the hero misery in the title or if there’s a playlist that would be great too but preferably the former
Chad, thank you brother man, appreciate the coaching!
Playing into comps that are strategically advantageous against you makes you a better player because it forces you to think about the game so much more. You can then hardwire those skills so that they become second nature when playing other heroes. I appreciate this series a lot because I've never been a fan of swapping just because it's easier.
I think thats the main reason doom players are usually quite skilled because they are up against counters in nearly every game
@H4VOK_YT true. Also the baseline for playing Doom successfully is very high. It's kind of mandatory for you to know roll outs and map knowledge has to be very high. You're not gonna throw all that knowledge away just for one character swap
@@H4VOK_YTnah it's because doom players suffer from depression because of how their hero is useless one day, strong the next day (on repeat), and has around 14 quadrillion bugs. My dudes fighting through mental illness on their otp
@@wicked5999 doom ain't that bad
Found your channel from a Flats video, up until recently i've been a super casual player, occasionally playing with friends in ranked but enjoying quickplay more often. Finding your videos and realising how competitive this game can get has me wanting to improve even more and take the game a little more serious. Aiming for high platinum at the moment thanks for the inspiration to get better :)
Honestly Zen counters ball just as hard as ball counters him. You become a giant squishy whenever you are in Zen’s sight line as ball.
can attest as a zen main; getting your shots in before ball can even hit you is so crucial
@ I also forgot Zen also has a free Lucio boop that can deny balls engagement
Zen is one of those characters in the game that can outplay pretty much anything that comes at him if you're good enough. He can outpoke snipers, punish dives, and deter brawls from running at him because of discord, right click and kick.
Oh yeah and he can flank cuz he doesnt make footsteps
Flankyatta best ‘yatta
Flankyatta and Rein Dive, most fun in the game
Please do more of this! Fantastic content, and it’s teaching a crazy amount about rotations and how to counter them! Really enjoyable to watch, please please do more.
That 48 to 50 damage buff is so good against widows.
Spilo as zen just killing the 3 harrasers at 16:26 like he is the rail boss, he is the one countering his counters
17:16 feels like a scene that came out of john wick 4, then spilo casually burst the ball
13:46 "make here stretch, make her stretch for it. if you want me, you're gonna have to work for it" HUH
It's funny I've found that when I'm having a rough time and go to counter pick we'll usually end up losing, but when I stop myself and stay on my character I'm able to build up a decent ult or 2 that greatly helps get us a win. Sometimes you just gotta calm down and lock in lmao
What happened at 3:44 lol that music cones in from nowhere and it's super loud hahaha
LMFAOOOOOO
er... that's definitely not an editing error- apologies! Fixing it right away
i feel like these videos need to be people in the same rank, who actually main the heroes you make them play. Especially with ball, Sombra and Tracer. Those characters have pretty unique play styles and are hard to swap to at high ranks if you don't normally play them. Like a Rein player can swap to Zarya or Ram a lot easier than ball because pathing is similar. But ball has a lot of specific grapple spots. And someone who plays Cassidy can swap to an Ashe or Sojourn relatively easily because they set up on similar angles and as long as you can aim, you'll get some sort of value. But if you don't know where to set up as sombra and tracer, you can get literally zero value
This series has been really insightful! Can you make one for Wrecking Ball? I'd be really interested in seeing the workarounds as I am currently struggling to figure out what I could be doing better.
I have to say I really like that Sombra is not perma invis anymore while still retaining the ability to go invis, she feels so much easier to track now that you know that she can only be out of sight for a few seconds. While the video wasn't focused on her, we could definitely notice how much easier it was to know where the Sombra was. She is definitely not good right now, I think she needs a buff to her spread to be able to participate in the fight outside of her assassination but I find this design much healthier overall.
I also would like to see interactions changes with hack, hacking Ball form, pilodrive, slam, punch and winston jump should not cancel the ability, they should change these to transformation abilities so they stay active after hack. Hack feels useless right now outside of fucking over very specific heroes, I think its value should be spread more evenly to be effective against more heroes yet not broken against any hero. They also need to get rid of opportunist, Sombra should win dual taking advantage of the hacking effect, not instantly delete someone out of nowhere with no counterplay.
Love your videos, can you do a wrecking ball one. Particularly going against Mei and Brigitte. I usually can play around one of these, but both are difficult. I typically play quick play because my friend does not have a pc, and I don’t enjoy playing without him. I feel like anytime I show any sort of competency the enemy team instantly swaps to at least these two. They either run through my team because I’m on ball and can’t frontline, or just sit there and wait for me to engage so I can’t get any picks. Thanks!
13:45 sombra jumpscare 0.0
The content the community needs! We can overcome our counters!
Love this idea! Do one for ball!
J/k that's just an average ball vod review *sobs in Hamster*
the problem is sustain creep, it hurts when you do 1200+ damage(only squishes) and still no kill confirmed , tracer.
sure i am doing what i am supposed to by distracting and baiting cooldowns but it is not fun when your damage keeps getting healed.
hate the changes to increase heath size and buffing support to bail everyone out of their mistakes.
14:14 perfect voice line lol
3:44 music jumpscare
my ears are ripped....
Fix is done- it is processing and should be all set soon.
This is one thing I love about Zen. He floats. No foot steps. Silent as a Ninja
Damn, like watching myself! havent played much OW2 but got into it this season. Current diamond 3 with 70%winrate and loving it. Got alot of value from flanks with trans IF my trance isnt needed for other ults like blade, grav, etc
if you ever do this with junkrat, good fucking luck
Honestly, a great approach to any hero. Play position, play context, play cover, play smart.
"He can see things before they happen. It's a Jedi trait."
17:10 LOOOOOOONg way zoom edit lolol
I have kicked a Ball around a room as a Zenyatta. It was funny for me, probably not so much for the Ball.
I have a few criticisms
Counter swapping is, was and always will be a thing in this game. There will always be bad and good or neutral matchups. It all depends on what circumstances you're in, Are you a good enough player to outplay your counters? Are your teammates able to cover for your weaknesses? Is the enemy team on the same skill level as you are? Believe it or not, With good enough skill you could outplay anyone on your hero, Which seems to me that this is the message this video is trying to spread.
A good enough player on Sombra, Winston, Ball, Genji, any dive hero will successfully take you out every time, Same goes for you. If you're a good enough Zen player you could survive them and win (assuming realistic circumstances, if they all dive you at once you're straight up dead without your ult)
In the video you didn't really consider doing it in a random lobby where you won't have a group, You're matched with players of your skill level on both your team and the enemy team. You played with people that are all considerably lower than your skill level. If I was a Master player playing even Lifeweaver I'll always outplay players in gold/silver/bronze no matter what (again assuming reasonable circumstances), Which is what I'm seeing from the video. You're not playing against good enough players. Sure they played heroes that did give them an edge, But counter swapping doesn't guarantee kills.
Basically, If you tried to apply this video in an actual comp lobby with similar skillful players you'd be at a huge disadvantage and the outcome would've been vastly different.
YES ZENYATTA CONENT THANK YOU
this was very entertaining, i watched it while i was eating breakfast!!
goated series methinks
I feel like since Zen deals enough damage and has enough range that as long as you take good angles you can outplay divers. I think counter swapping matters more on tanks, because they have less poke generally, and are forced to the front, which is usually more contested space. I don’t think play initiating tanks into your counters is fun. There are other situations where tanks have no agency and must swap, unless you are just better
well we did the winston one it went well
supposed "Tank" player
Great music choices
I played pretty much zen only (maybe 10% juno) to master 4. Currently at 80% winrate with him, he’s such a great charactar. I feel like he is the only character that can actually make the tanks kill able. Discord orb is an insane ability.
I played Winston into Mauga, Zen, Bastion (Ashe, Kiri) as a last ditch effort and won. Then I did it again. And again.
I'm currently 3-0 into such a comp.
Please youtube algorithm let this video blow up
Thought this was an Awkward video before I clicked on it
For people who don't know. Zen's kick is a powerful displacement tool, especially for ball. It can stop his momentum.
i know she's not as prone to counterpicks as others, but i'd love to see one like this for junkerqueen!
I hope you can do Brig at some point. I’m a Brig OTP so learning how to work with my worst matchups would be extremely useful
The only issue with this "experiment" is that players aren't playing like they would in a regular competitive game.
Subconsciously, everyone knows that Zen is the focus of the video. The enemy team will try harder to get him, while the allies will try harder to protect him, which is somewhat detrimental to some of the players' decision-making.
cant wait to see other supports :>
I'm not sure there's another support with matchups as bad as Zen's
How tf u comment 3 weeks ago, the vid just came out
@@percocet300mg7 prob patreon
@@c0de685 yup
@@percocet300mg7 patron
Wrecking ball next please!!!🙏
Please do playing tracer vs Torb+Ventrure/Genji/Cass Illari
ooh yes they are 4 dps in one team in overwatch
@ the slash means either one
so what happenes when ur rein and the other team goes orisa bastion mei
You can shield off the healing meant for Orisa depending on her back line and when Fortify is over you can charge her into your team so she can die. But that requires good positioning and shield management. Also may be map dependent but you can use your charge to get to places faster to prevent losing a lot of health or shield health.
Didnt even show the pulse bomb 😢
THANKYOU.
FUCKING THANKYOU.
I HAVE BEEN SCREAMING FOR MONTHS, THAT TRACER/SOMBRA IS NOT A COUNTER. NOR IS BALL.
it's a matter of positioning and gamesense, and along with your mechannical skill to punish the people who come after you.
By that logic, nothing is a counter to anything since if you are much better than the enemy ofc you can win. I'd like to see Spilo do this in a GM comp lobby or high elo scrim first. "just be better" doesn't really work if you are playing against good players or even pro players.
Zen is good with and vs Ball, but only if the enemy ball keeps going in solo or Zen has help.
Great vid, now do that on mercy 😂😢😅😢❤
good video
Brigitte vs widows , junkrat , fera ,rein , Junker Queen and maybe ana too
brig vs widow simple don't peek her
pharah vs brig only your team can save you
rein: why are you even that close to him
ana:how?
queen and junkrat will be accepted the rest is all playstyle adjustment
i actually find tracer is a skillmatchup in the 1v1 but genji is just death
Finally you accepted what awkward has been preaching for years. Learn the Zen way
I want to see you or someone to play Ball into Mauga , Cas , Sombra, Brig , Zen . Because I never swap, and im sure its gotten me reported lol
Yep, if you're truly great or that much better than the competition, counters don't matter. Thing is, that's not the reality for most players.
When you say movement you mean positioning.
4:40 I swear pulse multi kills NEVER get potg. I’ve seen a pulse 5k not get potg
PLS DO BALL I NEED SOME OF THIS
asking for rein vs orisa, lifeweaver, ana, echo, junk
I was here FeelsStrongMan
Genji next
Counters do exists, it's just that there are no hard counters in the game. Yes we all know that skill is the most important thing but lets not act like advantages don't exist. The majority of the losses in counterswap come from people not knowong the characters. If the enemy team has a DVA 1 trick with 1,000 hours then my 20 hour Zarya is not going to beat her. But if I had 1,000 hours on Zarya then it would be a completely different story
Another thing people do when picking counters is that they get tunnel vision on the person they are trying to counter (usually tanks) and a lot of the time you can just outplay the counter by not engaging with them and keeping your distance while they are trying to chase you around.
Doom next pls
i have a 70% winrate in t500 on zen counters are fake
Zen is the ball counter lmfao
🔑🔑🔑
Coming back to this when I'm able to watch it on my tv, don't be discouraged by the click off rate stats. Also commenting to boost in the algorithm. I live for Zen content there's only like 2 dedicated Zen main content creators so we're starved over here.
Imma be honest all those counters don't even feel like counters against zenyatta in masters. You know what weirdly counters Zenyatta? I flying fking junkrat in the air at mach speed to 2 shot your ass and a constantly flanking venture that one shots.
Well yeah i suppose if you just hit every shot with perfect accuracy and went for characters with high crit values. Mei, widow, hanzo, illiari ect. Cant see anyone but a good tank be abl2 to counter if you just keep clicking heads lol
Which is why people always say that its a skill issue if you need to counterswap.
Disagree about the widow, her vision is too limited to keep the accuracy so as soon as you approach your proper skill level it'll get immensely harder to outplay all the dive as she's burstable before she can react.
A small caveat about Mei too, as she can be outranged on certain maps, nearly nullifying her impact.
The others you listed - yea
@@ReaveIdono which is the truth
Zenyatta is least impacted by sombra's hack, because he is a weapon based support hero.
So is this just this guy beating up lower rank players but the challenge is that he has to play zen into their dive?
Yes
Right. The problem is when their mechanics and gameplay are better than yours. It’s usually the better players on the other team that recognize Zens strengths, and counter pick.
@BrianKramp At which point, isn't that good?
No it proves that most complaints from low elo players is basically just a "skill issue"
You'll se a dva complaining about zarya while playing in Gibraltar simple "skill issue"
@@Bad3abdul He should do it against high level players if he really wants to prove the point. Obviously anybody with more than 2 brain cells can beat low elo playes doesnt matter who they are playing, now lets see it against korean pros, atleast earn the "hardest matchup" clickbait playing against low elo players will never be a hard matchup
This is just disingenuous man, try and play ball for a damnn week and say that again. U cant play around cooldowns when 5 of the enemy team are literally there to counter you. As the tank YOU WILL NOT HAVE FUN when all they do,is make sure u cant play the damn game. I go in the first time, sombra hack, the secondtime brig boop/bap immo/sleep. The thrid time the first time cooldowns are back. Guess its just waste util, great gameplay
Does spilo even play
No one said one can't play into counters. just the sheer amount of knowledge and resilience it takes from a player to do that consitantly is too much if we're talking 50+ matches.
not to mention it's not fun and doesn't feel good esp. for tank
@@neilmallick20 soo?
tanks matchups are the easiest to combat except in reins situation
this is why games like paladins never really took off while overwatch 1 was popping off. if you don't have a phd in paladins and you don't play the right counters with the right card setup in ranked you're getting screamed at before the match even starts.
Widow ash are worse for zen imo, too easy a target for the super long range without a shield tank making maintaining discord difficult. Ball is actually weak to zen in many cases because he doesn’t react well to kick imo
All supports except for Illari are busted
lvl1crook has an unranked to gm zen which is also very insightful in playing zen at a high level against dive
I played pretty much zen only (maybe 10% juno) to master 4. Currently at 80% winrate with him, he’s such a great charactar. I feel like he is the only character that can actually make the tanks kill able. Discord orb is an insane ability.
Every character can make the tanks killable. Just kill their supports and they will die lol.