This episode SUCKED and HURT to make. Now, one could point out how Mor Deythan have +1 cover save from their skirmish special rule, but with the MASSIVE nerf to templates, 3" coherency isn't anything to write home about, and with cover saves maxing at 5+, the unit will max at 4+ cover saves, which isn't that helpful. If a template hits, it will instant-kill, but your power armour will provide the better save. Meanwhile, Dark Furies are just carrying the whole team. What does one make of this mess?!
Macca you are obviously missing the point here. The units that are the embodiments of their legion aren't supposed to be good, especially if they were in the last edition. You're just supposed to buy and find the strongest units, not try to have balance between units. -sarcasm off- Yeah the balance is waayy off and i think the game will definetly need a big Errata+FAQ to be in a good state.
@@vojtaxxxxxxx Which is really puzzeling. You would think that GW would want people to buy as many of their models as possible. A balanced army would do that.
@@Erikjust sarcasm on,,,,,, "You would think that GW would want people to buy as many of their models as possible." ...and not care about your bleeding wallet and what the blobs of ink in the rules say?
@@robertlamborn7518 if GW wants to maximize sales, making only a small amount of models worth buying just hurts them. It's like arguing that the rule of 3 was somehow to force people to buy more models, it doesn't make sense
One small thing that I don’t believe you mentioned that is worth noting. Heavy support squads are, well, heavy now. Makes sense. However this means they no longer infiltrate, nor get stealth. This long range unit, perfect for setting up ambushes and guaranteeing line of sight and range on optimal targets (very important in deception strike with its limitations), now have the outstanding ability to... reroll 1’s when they charge??? Oh and chain swords have shed, so assault squads also ignore the legion rule. Yaaaaaaaaay
I was glad you'd do Raven Guard and Salamanders early because I'm working on Shattered Legions as my first army Then you said Raven Guard is second worst legion, which made me sad And then you added the worst one was Salamanders... So I guess I made a good call huh
@@TheOuterCircle I know, ironically you have a lot of the same goals I had coming into the army, so it's very fun to see you build it. Welp here's to hoping the Iron Hands are nice, and then if anything I might end up picking up some White Scars to play as shattered legions too, your army being a huge inspiration too. Idk I just wanna play useful loyalists why is it so hard damn
The Mor Deythan can still be pretty brutal - I'd actually say putting Snipers on them is a waste since Recons do it cheaper while being line. If you invest in a squad of 10 with all combi-vulkies you're out 325 - not cheap, but oh man are they a threat bubble, the combination of Infiltrate and Scout lets you shove them on any units that get misplaced right at the start of the game. 40 shots at 12" - ~16 bolter hits, rending on 4+s = 8ap2 wounds on anything with a T value, the vulkies then do another 8 ap 2, plus a couple more at ap-5 against T4 or lower targets. You then get to CHOOM an extra ~8 hits into another 4 rends. This, on average, deletes a full strength line squad, or takes out 5 cataphractii terminators. If you're playing decapitation, that preferred enemy can come into play here for some extra murder. They won't "make their points back" most of the time in that initial volley - but they'll get close, easily deleting somewhere between 200-300 points of just about anything with a T-value (Interestingly - Leviathans are a great target, they cost nearly as much as the entire squad, and die twice-over at average rolls) They're a potent alpha-strike tool that can remove or seriously cripple any non-vehicle in the game that you'd just rather not deal with. Plus they have some melee utility - an extra attack, free chainswords, and relentless to let them charge after rapid firing lets them finish off any stragglers who manage to survive their guns.
@@TheOuterCircle "an awful lot to pay for mediocrity" is a great summary of many legion special units (and many of their forgeworld resin kits to boot) With that said - they do have a purpose, they're one of the most efficient dreadnaught removers in the game, and having a choom-bomb that you get to infiltrate in will force your opponent to make some difficult deployment decisions. They'll end up dying. Frequently. But they have the output to take down something more important than they are in the process.
Thank you for the video, loved it. it also is tempting to make a RG Traitor army with Deliverers and Dark Furies all painted red. I am also looking forward to you making sense of the Emperor's Children and their Advanced Reaction.- The Perfect Counter (Liber Heretics, page151). Thank and Cheers
Recon marines seem the way to go for line troops with the improved shrouded but I'm going to go for despoilers mostly instead for the access to power weapons on the troops. For my purposes I'd rather have Terminator Indomitus from the PDF as the occasional luxury choice troops and they get the bonus reroll of a 1 on the charge with powerfists, have 2 wounds and better armour saves, access to an assault cannon, the list goes on. Already assembled 10 Dark Furies with 2 choosers and an apothecary. Modelled the apothecary with a sanguinary guard jump pack as they look about the same as the Corvid pattern ones supplied from FW.
Where can l get a reference on their armour markings? Like some have inverted colours on the shoulders, white faceplates or red stripes over their helmets? I really like the look but what do they mean?
Battle hardened on the exemplary unit termies actually seems insane. I'm completely new to 30k but wouldn't resisting instant death from other termies power fists make our termies pretty damn good? Am I overvaluing it?
Mor Deythan. They are amazing with Melta. Getting rending on 4+ makes them able to pen flare shielded Spartans reliably, if they don't need to use Fatal Strike on popping a Spartan then can use the Fatal Strike on the bolters on some infantry for AP2 bolters on 4+ to wound. Really flexible shooting unit. Saying giving them combi disintegrators is not possible. Only Independent Characters and Seeker Sgts can take combi disintegrator.
I know they can't take the disintegrators, it would be awesome if they could for a meme unit, would make me take them. As for the meltas, fully agree, but guess which unit of mine got blown away turn one or reacted to most in my test games?
@@TheOuterCircle I've got 2x5 in Rhinos, if not going first then they aren't the best but can maybe consider Outflank on them in that case, Interceptor is just a huge problem for anything coming in from Reserves but if you've got multiple things in Reserves that might mean they survive if something else scary is coming in also I guess. At least with Decapitation Strike we have a decent chance of going first and can alpha with the Deythan in Rhinos, gor if we get seized on can Scout 12" away for some more safety.
Macca i think you are underestimating RG in this edition. Yes, Mor Deythan lost some, but they also gained some (like 2 wounds and relentless) otherwise RG is pretty similar or even buffed in case of Dark Furies. It is just that other legions got buffed. Anyway, RG lost their ability to upgrade Storm Eagle to Darkwing. I think they should get it back for +10 points they could get 6+ shrouded (so 5+ when zooming) and may exchange for eclipse missiles (heavy 2, large blast, str 4, ap5, blind or pinning). BTW battle hardened 1 gives +1 toughness when counting for instant death.
I judge based on the army ability to scale. Raven Guard scale poorly, and I explain a lot of why this is in a tier ranking live stream we did. But, in short, once you fill your dark fury and mor deythan slots, have a look at what other legions can bring to the table. Dreadnoughts? Sure, but look at the top tier legion, Fists, and compare. 6 squads of phallanx warders infantry with Line, 4+ FNP, 4+ rerollable invulnerable saves, backed by 3 legion heavy support squads with Line, plus Huscarls with storm shields and WS5, easily able to murderise Dark Furies if you're silly enough to 1v1 them. That is power scaling, what can you bring for like for like points which comes close to that?
@@TheOuterCircle My point was is that RG did not get worse, its other legions just got so much better. Furies being WS4 (other than 3 choosers in a 10 man squad being WS5), is clearly a balancing factor for running them with chaplain and tbh, only WS6 is troublesome for them imo. Maybe they need to simply increase RG heavy support choice from 1 to 2 in decapitation strike.
@@CloneDAnon I would argue worse due to the Furious Charge vanishing, only to be replaced by rerolling wounds, when 90% of units that would benefit from it have shredding weapons and gain nothing. That's a downgrade from last edition.
What's even worse is that the raven guard aren't best friends with imperial army so them having the militia rite of war doesn't get max benefit... got gud gw
I’m shocked you think the Salamanders are at the bottom of the ladder. I think there’s a lot of bonuses, that while not cohesive, are unique and powerful. Especially in relation to Leadership tests, yours and the enemy’s. The Imperial Fists on the other hand are so over inflated it makes me want to start an Iron Warriors force and go hunting….
Fair enough! I play Salamanders myself, so I’m probably just being hopeful. I do think they lack a cohesive core, for sure, though. They have many individually strong elements that don’t really configure in neat, clean manners. Thanks for the reply, though. I eagerly await your thoughts on the matter.
I’ve been watching your videos for years and truly appreciate all you do. I’m in a place in life where I can finally take the plunge and go all in on Horus Heresy. My beloved 8th legion is a ways off yet; I’d be much obliged if you could provide 15 words or so of your thoughts on their overall viability. I am not looking to make a dick-kicker army, but don’t want to be absolutely gimped. I picked up Beastmen in fantasy 8th not knowing anything and didn’t have a good time.
The Night Lords are a very strong legion, but with a high skill-ceiling in 2.0, which means although they have huge potential, you'll work for every win.
It does, but how useful is it compared to just throwing an apothecary into the unit for a 5+? Basically the same points, and the Apothecary can also fight!
@@TheOuterCircle I don't see anything in the rules that says you can't use both feel no pain and shrouded for the same saving throw. Which would give a unit 3 chances to save. I really wished gw had kept the old legion rules though.
Nemesis is 72" range, selects targets thanks to special rules so you can pick a specific member in an enemy unit, such as the squad leader and kill it, no look out sire possible. Same with sniping independent characters. Hitting on 2's with rending on 5's is a brutal combination when you dump 10 shots into the same guy.
Infiltrating Squad of ten with CombiVolkite dish out 40 shots that rend on 4+ with Fatal Strike. With 20 of those getting Deflagrate. I don't get, how that is worse than 10 shots with target selection that "only" rends on 5+ (even with Fatal Strike). Thet Squad shred nearly everything they shoot at. Maybe bar a 10man Cataphractii Terminator Squad with Primus Medicae.
I know, thos Vid is 3 Months old, but as a RG player who has jet to loose a game in 2.0 - RG is one of the strongest legions. The synergy that the LA Rules, DecapStrike and their Elite-Units build is only obershadowed by Imperial Fists. Also - BattleHardened(1) does not help you with MoraleChecks, it essentially gives you toughness 5. THE shrouding from Decap also lasts for the whole Game Turn, not Player turn. So when you go first, it even lasts into the opponents turn. I hope, you did change your oppinion over the öast 3 months, since it hurt to listen to this vid, when the RG really is THAT Powerfull. =]
I don’t own any resin units yet, but I’ve already committed to playing Raven Guard so I’ll just have to make the best of it: Deliverers, Recon squads, Dark Furies… and no Rites of War. I don’t *have* to take a Rite of War, right? The aesthetics and background are more enjoyable/important to me than the rules… but it would be great if they could do a better job balancing these armies. I’ll never be a Serious Heresy Gamer, so it’ll be fine. This is fine. ;-)
I think I've figured out why the rules writers are so scattershot - some of them read the lore and tried to stick to it (see Alpha legion) and others never read anything more than a wiki summary and just collected a paycheck. Anyone who had faith in GW/FW doing "extensive play testing" was fooling themselves
The Cape is definitely not Bad! Shroud is the same as a feel no pain, so a char with this coming from deepstrike in the row will have a 4+ shroud so you can use him to tank some stuff (normally 2+ save and 4+ shroud) and keep your squads alive :) Also I feel like you shouldn't compare the rules 1:1 to last edition and say they are bad just because they are worse... I'll agree with you that some rules are not written really well (reroll 1s to the units that have shred). But I think that raven guard is going to turn out to be pretty powerful. Comivolkites on mordathan will be brutal, especially supported by some support squads. Stop thinking in old edition and open your mind ;)
Mind is plenty open, do remember I tried 4 different games with Raven Guard and they just sucked. Their legion traits don't mesh with their units/wargear/rites well at all, and their camo cloaks are very pricey for something competing with apothecaries.
Hate to add more crap to the crap sandwich, but when talking about the Mor Daythen, their Fatal Strike ability specifically states that it cannot be used to improve the rend characteristic of any weapon that already has it. . .so you cant use that ability on a squad all armed with Nemisis Bolters, since they have Rending 5+ already. . . it hurts my soul just typing this 😭
It's in addition to other rules, but not stacking with, it's what we call "poorly written" for another great example, Firewing Enigmatus Cabal from the PDF.
Add On (sry): in 1.0 i played a very cool fluffy istvaan raven guard force. im no power gamer at all, i like small fluffy games. but the legions need that characteristic strengh, the stuff that made them special so we fell in love to them. my army is a full drop pod assault force....with the new rules....nothing (LITRALLY NOTHING) in my whole army benefit from ANY!!!!!! of the new rules...i got tacticals and tactical supps in drop pods...some deathstorm pods and dark fury (which i have to to deep strike due to the new rules so they just stand a turn). like my whole army is broken now and they actually (yes i repeat myself cause its so ridiculous) got NO SINGLE BENEFIT from thier legion rules.....
Um... rerolling 1s to wound for assault squads is moot, since they have shred on their chainswords. RG have un-synergy legion. They have so many redundant rules that do the same thing. And Raven Talons are terribly costed. You need to buy the normal lightning claw and then upgrade EACH claw, all for one more pip of Rending. EDIT: Agree RG have turd rules. I want to not hate them, but their rules are so awful. EDIT 2: Disagree on Dark Furies. So many other elite jump troops are WS5. Only the Choosers are here. They seem over-costed vs say Dawn Breakers.
Yea, but Furies are also really cheap and if you pop in a chaplain for the furies the WS4 is mitigated. You can have 3 choosers in a squad of 10 furies (as i understand it), meaning that they all 3 can get not only WS5, but also 2+ armor that is intergrated into their rules. I agree that some of the RG rules are unsynergetic, but that is only at first glance. For example those re-rolls to 1's to wound are actually nice on non-shred weapons, like power weapons. Deliverers are also quite insane unit with battlehardened 1 counting them as T5 for instant death. Dawnbreakers are not as good as Furies other than they have the 2+ armor on all, but their weapons are not as good as raven's talons and even then you need to get the equinox blades for +5 point per model for them to have shred with sudden strike OR rending 5+ (furies get all these abilities combined into one), plus Furies get +2/+2 more extra attack (depending on weapons choice of Dawnbreakers) and always have sudden strike on a charge with precision strikes 6+ and have the best jump pack in 30k.
@@CloneDAnon - Dawnbreakers don't need shred. They are Blood Angels. They get +1S from Furious Charge AND +1 to wound from BA rule. Wounding on 2s anyway. That is better odds of wounding vs. Astartes than Dark Furies with shred. Plus they have grenade launchers. Plus a built-in rule that is part of an RG WL trait. ON A UNIT. They don't need to switch to the swords, they can keep their spears for +1S and +1I all the time (not just when charging), and rending 5+. Poor Dark Furies are going to struggle against anything not-infantry. Shred only going to help you so much when you can't even wound vs. a Dreadnought cuz you are too weak. Dawnbreakers - no problem here. They will be S6 on the charge, with +1 to wound, wounding the Dreadnought on what Dark Furies wound Astartes on. Did I mention they have grenade launchers? And better WS and Armour on the whole squad, not just the choosers. Their Chaplain will get a Nemesis Bolter to the head. Choosers next. I agree Deliverers are really good. Too good in fact. But there is a reason why a lot of people don't play with the legacy pdf and those supplements.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 Oh yeah i forgot the BA rule, anyway if we count the spears they will have 2 less attacks per model than the Furies (no matter if they charged or not) and no shred. Plus Furies would always go first with sudden strike 1 if they get the charge. Shred is actually really good with rending, you can re-roll successful wounds too for that 5+ rend in order to punch trough that tough 2+ armor. Put a biomancer + chaplain with Furies and watch them tear trough enemies (unless there is a limit now in how many independent chars can join a squad). *Basically Dawnbreakers have more staying power, but Furies are more deadly (especially on the charge) for more or less same points cost.* Furies don't have ranged weapons (other than basic frag & krak), though i do not see the Dawnbreaker grenade launchers as anything special, but Dark Furies do have a better jump packs and precision strike 6+. Also, honestly i don't see Furies getting sniped at least before they attempt a charge, plus they can dodge with that RG special reaction. Also, honestly its probably RG that will have way more Nemesis bolters on the field :). PS. In my opinion Macca is underselling Mor Deythan, they did get 2 wounds and relentless, even if their fatal strike took a hit (it was OP before with them combi flamers wiping most tough termi squads with twin-linked aka shred and 4+ rending).
@@CloneDAnon - Agree on the Mor Deythan. The Volkite-combi is the way to go with them. Sadly, their special rule cannot work on Nemesis Bolters. Dawnbreaker spears have Reach, so would still get +1I. You are right, they have less attacks, but you don't need those necessarily. Quality over quantity. And I think it is unfair that to say the Dark Furies would be good with two HQs imbedded in them. Maybe your meta does not have Nemesis Bolters everywhere, but between them and Seekers with Scorpius rounds, characters not in transports are not long for this world at some tables, i.e. jump pack characters.
While waiting for the new edition to come out I built and painted over 100 troops of Raven Guard. The plan was infantry based army that allows different play styles. deep strike, outflank, pride of the legion etc. among others I built and painted these> 10 seekers with combi plasma,10 man plasma support squad,10 mor deythan with combi plasma,10 tartaros terminator with..guess what.10 combi plasma. the pain is real here...why they nerfed plasma WHILE added +1wound for most of the infantry and termies? :/
honestly feels theres gonna be a legion FAQ that comes out that high lights a bunch of changes since GW feels like publishing the books before they are corrected or make sense
IMO they just became worse in everything...who wrote thoose rules?? legion special rules that the boiz have already??? its like an option who gives a tactical squad bs 4...wtf?
A little over 3 minutes in, and I can't really take you seriously anymore. You were so busy complaining that Talons got much worse (which I don't particularly agree with) that you missed how non-functional Hawks is.
I thought it was a given..... all 3 suffer, oddly enough, vehicles kinda come off best with stacking shrouded? Either way, they didn't think through their bonuses.
@@TheOuterCircle It does not apply to all Vehicles, only Fast and Flyers, but additionally rules-as-written Vehicles do not benefit from Shrouded anyway. Meanwhile Talons gave up bonuses for getting into melee for a pseudo FNP(6+) from most shooting, and also Infiltrate got better between editions so there's that too. Raptors is annoying. It should have been rereolling to hit rather than wound.
@@christopherclayton5500 I find infiltrate got worse overall, because despite working better, there's so many more augery scanners on the battlefield that prevent you from utilising infiltrate to good effect, combined iwth reaction fire to your moving and shooting, infiltrators at close range have a very hard time of it. Talons got wrecked, and the shrouded tanks whilst not applying to all, is some damage mitigation and works better than on the bloody infantry. Tank stealth +10.
@@christopherclayton5500 Oh no, I'm with you 100%, I'm just saying how it 'technically' affects them, but then it doesn't. Why? Probably because they wrote one rule first, made the other to suit, then went back and rerwrote the first rule breaking the second. After all, that's how we got breaching plasma.....
This episode SUCKED and HURT to make. Now, one could point out how Mor Deythan have +1 cover save from their skirmish special rule, but with the MASSIVE nerf to templates, 3" coherency isn't anything to write home about, and with cover saves maxing at 5+, the unit will max at 4+ cover saves, which isn't that helpful. If a template hits, it will instant-kill, but your power armour will provide the better save. Meanwhile, Dark Furies are just carrying the whole team. What does one make of this mess?!
Macca you are obviously missing the point here. The units that are the embodiments of their legion aren't supposed to be good, especially if they were in the last edition.
You're just supposed to buy and find the strongest units, not try to have balance between units.
-sarcasm off-
Yeah the balance is waayy off and i think the game will definetly need a big Errata+FAQ to be in a good state.
@@vojtaxxxxxxx Which is really puzzeling.
You would think that GW would want people to buy as many of their models as possible.
A balanced army would do that.
@@Erikjust sarcasm on,,,,,, "You would think that GW would want people to buy as many of their models as possible." ...and not care about your bleeding wallet and what the blobs of ink in the rules say?
@@robertlamborn7518 if GW wants to maximize sales, making only a small amount of models worth buying just hurts them. It's like arguing that the rule of 3 was somehow to force people to buy more models, it doesn't make sense
One small thing that I don’t believe you mentioned that is worth noting. Heavy support squads are, well, heavy now. Makes sense.
However this means they no longer infiltrate, nor get stealth. This long range unit, perfect for setting up ambushes and guaranteeing line of sight and range on optimal targets (very important in deception strike with its limitations), now have the outstanding ability to... reroll 1’s when they charge???
Oh and chain swords have shed, so assault squads also ignore the legion rule. Yaaaaaaaaay
Raven Guard need more love in both 30k and 40k. Super underrated Legion and Chapter.
I want Loyalist Deamon Prince Corvus Corax to return to 40k simply because his model would be unbelievably cool
@@timeenoughatlast3368 dear god no
Perfect, my mini Raven Guard army from 1.0 were based around the Dark Fury squads so it’s perfect.
I was glad you'd do Raven Guard and Salamanders early because I'm working on Shattered Legions as my first army
Then you said Raven Guard is second worst legion, which made me sad
And then you added the worst one was Salamanders... So I guess I made a good call huh
I'm playing Salamanders, for what it's worth.
@@TheOuterCircle I know, ironically you have a lot of the same goals I had coming into the army, so it's very fun to see you build it.
Welp here's to hoping the Iron Hands are nice, and then if anything I might end up picking up some White Scars to play as shattered legions too, your army being a huge inspiration too.
Idk I just wanna play useful loyalists why is it so hard damn
The Mor Deythan can still be pretty brutal - I'd actually say putting Snipers on them is a waste since Recons do it cheaper while being line.
If you invest in a squad of 10 with all combi-vulkies you're out 325 - not cheap, but oh man are they a threat bubble, the combination of Infiltrate and Scout lets you shove them on any units that get misplaced right at the start of the game.
40 shots at 12" - ~16 bolter hits, rending on 4+s = 8ap2 wounds on anything with a T value, the vulkies then do another 8 ap 2, plus a couple more at ap-5 against T4 or lower targets. You then get to CHOOM an extra ~8 hits into another 4 rends. This, on average, deletes a full strength line squad, or takes out 5 cataphractii terminators.
If you're playing decapitation, that preferred enemy can come into play here for some extra murder.
They won't "make their points back" most of the time in that initial volley - but they'll get close, easily deleting somewhere between 200-300 points of just about anything with a T-value (Interestingly - Leviathans are a great target, they cost nearly as much as the entire squad, and die twice-over at average rolls) They're a potent alpha-strike tool that can remove or seriously cripple any non-vehicle in the game that you'd just rather not deal with. Plus they have some melee utility - an extra attack, free chainswords, and relentless to let them charge after rapid firing lets them finish off any stragglers who manage to survive their guns.
That's an awful lot to pay for mediocrity. They can* do damage, but that's not the mark of quality.
@@TheOuterCircle "an awful lot to pay for mediocrity" is a great summary of many legion special units (and many of their forgeworld resin kits to boot)
With that said - they do have a purpose, they're one of the most efficient dreadnaught removers in the game, and having a choom-bomb that you get to infiltrate in will force your opponent to make some difficult deployment decisions. They'll end up dying. Frequently. But they have the output to take down something more important than they are in the process.
I want to cry tears as big as watermellons. It feels like my army is going to be very hard to play with any chance for a win.
Thank you for the video, loved it. it also is tempting to make a RG Traitor army with Deliverers and Dark Furies all painted red.
I am also looking forward to you making sense of the Emperor's Children and their Advanced Reaction.- The Perfect Counter (Liber Heretics, page151).
Thank and Cheers
Hello Ashen Claw or Pale Nomad Army!
Recon marines seem the way to go for line troops with the improved shrouded but I'm going to go for despoilers mostly instead for the access to power weapons on the troops. For my purposes I'd rather have Terminator Indomitus from the PDF as the occasional luxury choice troops and they get the bonus reroll of a 1 on the charge with powerfists, have 2 wounds and better armour saves, access to an assault cannon, the list goes on.
Already assembled 10 Dark Furies with 2 choosers and an apothecary. Modelled the apothecary with a sanguinary guard jump pack as they look about the same as the Corvid pattern ones supplied from FW.
Where can l get a reference on their armour markings? Like some have inverted colours on the shoulders, white faceplates or red stripes over their helmets? I really like the look but what do they mean?
Battle hardened on the exemplary unit termies actually seems insane. I'm completely new to 30k but wouldn't resisting instant death from other termies power fists make our termies pretty damn good? Am I overvaluing it?
Highly anticipating your World Eaters video! :-)
I'm starting a raven guard army Mistley for the lore and the exclusive raven guard units like mór dheyen
Mor Deythan. They are amazing with Melta. Getting rending on 4+ makes them able to pen flare shielded Spartans reliably, if they don't need to use Fatal Strike on popping a Spartan then can use the Fatal Strike on the bolters on some infantry for AP2 bolters on 4+ to wound. Really flexible shooting unit.
Saying giving them combi disintegrators is not possible. Only Independent Characters and Seeker Sgts can take combi disintegrator.
I know they can't take the disintegrators, it would be awesome if they could for a meme unit, would make me take them.
As for the meltas, fully agree, but guess which unit of mine got blown away turn one or reacted to most in my test games?
@@TheOuterCircle I've got 2x5 in Rhinos, if not going first then they aren't the best but can maybe consider Outflank on them in that case, Interceptor is just a huge problem for anything coming in from Reserves but if you've got multiple things in Reserves that might mean they survive if something else scary is coming in also I guess. At least with Decapitation Strike we have a decent chance of going first and can alpha with the Deythan in Rhinos, gor if we get seized on can Scout 12" away for some more safety.
You also get +2 attacks from having two lightening claws. You’re paying for the extra rend
Hence why I said Ravens Talons are a lot worse than the previous edition, their buff is so insignificant, unless used en masse.
Macca i think you are underestimating RG in this edition. Yes, Mor Deythan lost some, but they also gained some (like 2 wounds and relentless) otherwise RG is pretty similar or even buffed in case of Dark Furies. It is just that other legions got buffed. Anyway, RG lost their ability to upgrade Storm Eagle to Darkwing. I think they should get it back for +10 points they could get 6+ shrouded (so 5+ when zooming) and may exchange for eclipse missiles (heavy 2, large blast, str 4, ap5, blind or pinning). BTW battle hardened 1 gives +1 toughness when counting for instant death.
I judge based on the army ability to scale. Raven Guard scale poorly, and I explain a lot of why this is in a tier ranking live stream we did. But, in short, once you fill your dark fury and mor deythan slots, have a look at what other legions can bring to the table. Dreadnoughts? Sure, but look at the top tier legion, Fists, and compare.
6 squads of phallanx warders infantry with Line, 4+ FNP, 4+ rerollable invulnerable saves, backed by 3 legion heavy support squads with Line, plus Huscarls with storm shields and WS5, easily able to murderise Dark Furies if you're silly enough to 1v1 them. That is power scaling, what can you bring for like for like points which comes close to that?
@@TheOuterCircle My point was is that RG did not get worse, its other legions just got so much better. Furies being WS4 (other than 3 choosers in a 10 man squad being WS5), is clearly a balancing factor for running them with chaplain and tbh, only WS6 is troublesome for them imo. Maybe they need to simply increase RG heavy support choice from 1 to 2 in decapitation strike.
@@CloneDAnon I would argue worse due to the Furious Charge vanishing, only to be replaced by rerolling wounds, when 90% of units that would benefit from it have shredding weapons and gain nothing. That's a downgrade from last edition.
Your analisys suggests me to sit this edition
What's even worse is that the raven guard aren't best friends with imperial army so them having the militia rite of war doesn't get max benefit... got gud gw
Which legion is the worst for now in your opinion?
Salamanders, I said it in the video why, but will explain when I do them.
I’m shocked you think the Salamanders are at the bottom of the ladder. I think there’s a lot of bonuses, that while not cohesive, are unique and powerful. Especially in relation to Leadership tests, yours and the enemy’s.
The Imperial Fists on the other hand are so over inflated it makes me want to start an Iron Warriors force and go hunting….
Well, all going well and in about 6 hours you'll hear my reasoning as to WHY I think they suffer and what they do well.
Fair enough! I play Salamanders myself, so I’m probably just being hopeful. I do think they lack a cohesive core, for sure, though. They have many individually strong elements that don’t really configure in neat, clean manners.
Thanks for the reply, though. I eagerly await your thoughts on the matter.
Would you recommend 5 or 10 man Cataphractii Terminator squads? Thanks.
I like 10, but that's just me.
Thanks.
Did they finally add CF/PF to RG Deliverer's?
Yes, I mentioned a CF/MM combat load out on 2 of them.
I’ve been watching your videos for years and truly appreciate all you do. I’m in a place in life where I can finally take the plunge and go all in on Horus Heresy.
My beloved 8th legion is a ways off yet; I’d be much obliged if you could provide 15 words or so of your thoughts on their overall viability. I am not looking to make a dick-kicker army, but don’t want to be absolutely gimped. I picked up Beastmen in fantasy 8th not knowing anything and didn’t have a good time.
The Night Lords are a very strong legion, but with a high skill-ceiling in 2.0, which means although they have huge potential, you'll work for every win.
Thanks for this. Sounds like they are a bit like the alpha legion… high upside if you know what the hell you’re doing. I can dig
@@sahaynam6470 Yeah, they specialise in the 'Fear bomb"
I think the camoline cloak effects the unit the character it's attach to. At least the gw rep in my area said it does.
It does, but how useful is it compared to just throwing an apothecary into the unit for a 5+? Basically the same points, and the Apothecary can also fight!
@@TheOuterCircle I don't see anything in the rules that says you can't use both feel no pain and shrouded for the same saving throw. Which would give a unit 3 chances to save.
I really wished gw had kept the old legion rules though.
Nevermind
@@TheOuterCircle I’m not seeing why it would effect the squads shrouded roll. Could you point me in the right direction?
@@carlosnieve1225 regards what? Shrouded and FnP are both damage mitigation rolls, so you have to choose one or the other.
Those terms though battle hardened making them immune to insane death till strength 10 I feel they are a very good anti term unit
When you think about it, the Raven Guard kinda have in universe reasons why they can't be good on the tabletop
Dont get how Mor Deythan with a combi weapon is a lot worse than with the nemesis?
Nemesis is 72" range, selects targets thanks to special rules so you can pick a specific member in an enemy unit, such as the squad leader and kill it, no look out sire possible. Same with sniping independent characters. Hitting on 2's with rending on 5's is a brutal combination when you dump 10 shots into the same guy.
Infiltrating Squad of ten with CombiVolkite dish out 40 shots that rend on 4+ with Fatal Strike. With 20 of those getting Deflagrate.
I don't get, how that is worse than 10 shots with target selection that "only" rends on 5+ (even with Fatal Strike). Thet Squad shred nearly everything they shoot at. Maybe bar a 10man Cataphractii Terminator Squad with Primus Medicae.
I know, thos Vid is 3 Months old, but as a RG player who has jet to loose a game in 2.0 - RG is one of the strongest legions. The synergy that the LA Rules, DecapStrike and their Elite-Units build is only obershadowed by Imperial Fists.
Also - BattleHardened(1) does not help you with MoraleChecks, it essentially gives you toughness 5. THE shrouding from Decap also lasts for the whole Game Turn, not Player turn. So when you go first, it even lasts into the opponents turn. I hope, you did change your oppinion over the öast 3 months, since it hurt to listen to this vid, when the RG really is THAT Powerfull. =]
I don’t own any resin units yet, but I’ve already committed to playing Raven Guard so I’ll just have to make the best of it: Deliverers, Recon squads, Dark Furies… and no Rites of War. I don’t *have* to take a Rite of War, right? The aesthetics and background are more enjoyable/important to me than the rules… but it would be great if they could do a better job balancing these armies. I’ll never be a Serious Heresy Gamer, so it’ll be fine. This is fine. ;-)
Rites of War are optional. They're a fun and fluffy way to play. But they pigeon-hole you into building your army a certain way.
I think I've figured out why the rules writers are so scattershot - some of them read the lore and tried to stick to it (see Alpha legion) and others never read anything more than a wiki summary and just collected a paycheck.
Anyone who had faith in GW/FW doing "extensive play testing" was fooling themselves
The Cape is definitely not Bad! Shroud is the same as a feel no pain, so a char with this coming from deepstrike in the row will have a 4+ shroud so you can use him to tank some stuff (normally 2+ save and 4+ shroud) and keep your squads alive :) Also I feel like you shouldn't compare the rules 1:1 to last edition and say they are bad just because they are worse... I'll agree with you that some rules are not written really well (reroll 1s to the units that have shred). But I think that raven guard is going to turn out to be pretty powerful. Comivolkites on mordathan will be brutal, especially supported by some support squads. Stop thinking in old edition and open your mind ;)
Mind is plenty open, do remember I tried 4 different games with Raven Guard and they just sucked. Their legion traits don't mesh with their units/wargear/rites well at all, and their camo cloaks are very pricey for something competing with apothecaries.
Shroud is better in some cases than FNP, since it works against instant death weapons too (but FNP works also in melee etc).
@@TheOuterCircle I think you need to get some pinning weaponry for RG, in order to get off those attacks without enemy reactions.
Hate to add more crap to the crap sandwich, but when talking about the Mor Daythen, their Fatal Strike ability specifically states that it cannot be used to improve the rend characteristic of any weapon that already has it. . .so you cant use that ability on a squad all armed with Nemisis Bolters, since they have Rending 5+ already. . . it hurts my soul just typing this 😭
It's in addition to other rules, but not stacking with, it's what we call "poorly written" for another great example, Firewing Enigmatus Cabal from the PDF.
Outer Circle can you make a video on 22th Ultramarine chapter, the one you made. I would love to see that unique flavour of boring ultrama4ines!
Add On (sry): in 1.0 i played a very cool fluffy istvaan raven guard force. im no power gamer at all, i like small fluffy games. but the legions need that characteristic strengh, the stuff that made them special so we fell in love to them. my army is a full drop pod assault force....with the new rules....nothing (LITRALLY NOTHING) in my whole army benefit from ANY!!!!!! of the new rules...i got tacticals and tactical supps in drop pods...some deathstorm pods and dark fury (which i have to to deep strike due to the new rules so they just stand a turn). like my whole army is broken now and they actually (yes i repeat myself cause its so ridiculous) got NO SINGLE BENEFIT from thier legion rules.....
Look how they massacred my boy
Um... rerolling 1s to wound for assault squads is moot, since they have shred on their chainswords. RG have un-synergy legion. They have so many redundant rules that do the same thing. And Raven Talons are terribly costed. You need to buy the normal lightning claw and then upgrade EACH claw, all for one more pip of Rending.
EDIT: Agree RG have turd rules. I want to not hate them, but their rules are so awful.
EDIT 2: Disagree on Dark Furies. So many other elite jump troops are WS5. Only the Choosers are here. They seem over-costed vs say Dawn Breakers.
Yea, but Furies are also really cheap and if you pop in a chaplain for the furies the WS4 is mitigated. You can have 3 choosers in a squad of 10 furies (as i understand it), meaning that they all 3 can get not only WS5, but also 2+ armor that is intergrated into their rules. I agree that some of the RG rules are unsynergetic, but that is only at first glance. For example those re-rolls to 1's to wound are actually nice on non-shred weapons, like power weapons.
Deliverers are also quite insane unit with battlehardened 1 counting them as T5 for instant death. Dawnbreakers are not as good as Furies other than they have the 2+ armor on all, but their weapons are not as good as raven's talons and even then you need to get the equinox blades for +5 point per model for them to have shred with sudden strike OR rending 5+ (furies get all these abilities combined into one), plus Furies get +2/+2 more extra attack (depending on weapons choice of Dawnbreakers) and always have sudden strike on a charge with precision strikes 6+ and have the best jump pack in 30k.
@@CloneDAnon - Dawnbreakers don't need shred. They are Blood Angels. They get +1S from Furious Charge AND +1 to wound from BA rule. Wounding on 2s anyway. That is better odds of wounding vs. Astartes than Dark Furies with shred. Plus they have grenade launchers. Plus a built-in rule that is part of an RG WL trait. ON A UNIT. They don't need to switch to the swords, they can keep their spears for +1S and +1I all the time (not just when charging), and rending 5+. Poor Dark Furies are going to struggle against anything not-infantry. Shred only going to help you so much when you can't even wound vs. a Dreadnought cuz you are too weak. Dawnbreakers - no problem here. They will be S6 on the charge, with +1 to wound, wounding the Dreadnought on what Dark Furies wound Astartes on.
Did I mention they have grenade launchers? And better WS and Armour on the whole squad, not just the choosers. Their Chaplain will get a Nemesis Bolter to the head. Choosers next.
I agree Deliverers are really good. Too good in fact. But there is a reason why a lot of people don't play with the legacy pdf and those supplements.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 Oh yeah i forgot the BA rule, anyway if we count the spears they will have 2 less attacks per model than the Furies (no matter if they charged or not) and no shred. Plus Furies would always go first with sudden strike 1 if they get the charge. Shred is actually really good with rending, you can re-roll successful wounds too for that 5+ rend in order to punch trough that tough 2+ armor. Put a biomancer + chaplain with Furies and watch them tear trough enemies (unless there is a limit now in how many independent chars can join a squad).
*Basically Dawnbreakers have more staying power, but Furies are more deadly (especially on the charge) for more or less same points cost.* Furies don't have ranged weapons (other than basic frag & krak), though i do not see the Dawnbreaker grenade launchers as anything special, but Dark Furies do have a better jump packs and precision strike 6+. Also, honestly i don't see Furies getting sniped at least before they attempt a charge, plus they can dodge with that RG special reaction. Also, honestly its probably RG that will have way more Nemesis bolters on the field :).
PS. In my opinion Macca is underselling Mor Deythan, they did get 2 wounds and relentless, even if their fatal strike took a hit (it was OP before with them combi flamers wiping most tough termi squads with twin-linked aka shred and 4+ rending).
@@CloneDAnon - Agree on the Mor Deythan. The Volkite-combi is the way to go with them. Sadly, their special rule cannot work on Nemesis Bolters.
Dawnbreaker spears have Reach, so would still get +1I. You are right, they have less attacks, but you don't need those necessarily. Quality over quantity. And I think it is unfair that to say the Dark Furies would be good with two HQs imbedded in them.
Maybe your meta does not have Nemesis Bolters everywhere, but between them and Seekers with Scorpius rounds, characters not in transports are not long for this world at some tables, i.e. jump pack characters.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 Furies might be too good with WS5 with that amount of attacks. Though they do suffer if they have to fight WS6 in this edition.
While waiting for the new edition to come out I built and painted over 100 troops of Raven Guard.
The plan was infantry based army that allows different play styles. deep strike, outflank, pride of the legion etc. among others I built and painted these>
10 seekers with combi plasma,10 man plasma support squad,10 mor deythan with combi plasma,10 tartaros terminator with..guess what.10 combi plasma. the pain is real here...why they nerfed plasma WHILE added +1wound for most of the infantry and termies? :/
Basically a similar problem for me. Nerfed everything I owned except the Recon Marines.
honestly feels theres gonna be a legion FAQ that comes out that high lights a bunch of changes since GW feels like publishing the books before they are corrected or make sense
IMO they just became worse in everything...who wrote thoose rules?? legion special rules that the boiz have already??? its like an option who gives a tactical squad bs 4...wtf?
A little over 3 minutes in, and I can't really take you seriously anymore. You were so busy complaining that Talons got much worse (which I don't particularly agree with) that you missed how non-functional Hawks is.
I thought it was a given..... all 3 suffer, oddly enough, vehicles kinda come off best with stacking shrouded? Either way, they didn't think through their bonuses.
@@TheOuterCircle It does not apply to all Vehicles, only Fast and Flyers, but additionally rules-as-written Vehicles do not benefit from Shrouded anyway.
Meanwhile Talons gave up bonuses for getting into melee for a pseudo FNP(6+) from most shooting, and also Infiltrate got better between editions so there's that too.
Raptors is annoying. It should have been rereolling to hit rather than wound.
@@christopherclayton5500 I find infiltrate got worse overall, because despite working better, there's so many more augery scanners on the battlefield that prevent you from utilising infiltrate to good effect, combined iwth reaction fire to your moving and shooting, infiltrators at close range have a very hard time of it.
Talons got wrecked, and the shrouded tanks whilst not applying to all, is some damage mitigation and works better than on the bloody infantry. Tank stealth +10.
@@TheOuterCircle Go reread Shrouded and tell me which paragraph helps tanks.
@@christopherclayton5500 Oh no, I'm with you 100%, I'm just saying how it 'technically' affects them, but then it doesn't. Why? Probably because they wrote one rule first, made the other to suit, then went back and rerwrote the first rule breaking the second. After all, that's how we got breaching plasma.....