So a mistake I made was I wrote "requires a champion consul" in one of the slides for the Dark Brethren Rite of War. It doesn't, it was a mistake in editing on my behalf, and although I didn't talk about it during the episode, I did want to clarify it. The Word Bearers Advanced Reaction is ignored by Ordanance, Destroyer, Blast and Template weapons. The example given in the video with the Fellblade is incorrect, as the Reaction would only tank the lascannon and bolt shots, not the main gun and demolisher. Still, funny to push a guy in front of it. On the Talons, as I said, a pair naturally makes you think "bonus attacks" but I must point out the rules as intended vs rules as written. The rules as written ONLY list "Tainted Talons" nothing about singular, or matched pairs and extra attacks, I don't care how you choose to play them if you play with me, but some people WILL argue these things out there, hence why I bring it up.
There is no lrule about extra attacks or listing for paired taited talons becasue there is no reason to. 'Tainted talons' are a single melee weapon that is not 2 handed. You don't get a listing for every model that can take 2 melee weapons specifically saying it gives you an extra attack. RAW by the core rules you get an extra attack if you have 2. It's not like the LCs that give an additional attack over that one becasue if their special rule. You just get the same rule that applies to any other melee weapon. RAI there would be literally no reason to have taking 2 as an option in exchange of loosing your gun.
@@Cornivius except in 2.0 it blatantly states for weapons how bonuses work regarding paired lightning claws for instance vs a single. That bonus is +2 attacks. Additionally, the weapon is listed as Tainted Talons but on the Gal Vorbak as a Tainted Talon, so is there a statline missing for one, or is it a typo and it's the same weapon. Like in heresy 1.0 with Aether-fire and Aether-flame weapons....
It’s listed as “Tainted Talons” in all instances. On the Gal Vorbak profile and in the WB Armoury. When you replace the boltspitter the model now has 2 melee weapons and this an extra attack as per page 184 in rulebook. It’s really as simple as that and specific weapon rules for Lightning claws have no relevance to the discussion that is a bonus in addition to the base rule for those weapons.
If a model is equipped with 2 Chainswords or 2 power swords etc they will all receive +1A for having 2 melee weapons. It’s the same here for the Tainted Talons
@@Badentrotter But it reads like the model comes with Lightning Claws, you can take another set of Lightning Claws. I understand EXACTLY what you're saying, but it's bad English, and it should say "May upgrade to a pair of Tainted Talons" or "May take a second set of tainted talons" or something to that effect. The minute you add an "S" onto them, it throws out the clarity in rules writing, even if you know the intent.
I'm watching these as a way to work out how to beat all these Legions, as I patiently wait for you to get to the EC. Has actually been very informative.
Notable things about warp fire, the not getting hot is real good and they become assault weapons. So the fact that they can pin and be in the front lines for better assaults which is where word bearers want to be is pretty solid
On plasma guns, eh, maybe, but most people seem to agree they suck compared to other weapons available in the same category. Edit: the only assault one is the plasma-gun replacement, the others still have their drawbacks.
"WB players, if you can see a really good use for this, I really wanna know it" I got you, boo, cuz you clearly didn't read the rules and don't understand this army at all. (edit at end of video: I got heated but to be clear, not mad. I'm just really really confused) Iconoclast: It's +2 S vs fortifications/buildings, and +2 vs terrain with a T. No fortifications or buildings have a T, so while the rule is poorly written, it is also obvious what the intent is here. It's also for the entire unit. It says "they" instead of "the warlord" which makes me think the intent is to continue off of the "warlord and unit" from the previous half of the rule. Again, poorly written, but that seems to be the intent in my opinion. And it makes thematic sense. Iconoclasts are the Ashen Circle. Burninating buildings is their thing. I like it, but the +1 attack is the reason you take this trait (and i love taking it) The Dark Bretheren: This RoW is super good. The best? Nah, but DEFINITELY very good. Here's the thing. +1S means 3+ to wound. +1 movement means +1 to charge, and more importantly, +1WS means 3+ to hit enemies, and 5+ to hit your unit. Weapon skill 5 is HUGE. Toss that on a 20 man despoiler or assault squad and you're going to murder things. Something to know is that you're going to build a more well rounded list with this RoW so you can take full advantage of this buff. Getting it in both the shooting AND the assault phase on multiple turns isn't too much to ask. Using a support squad of warpfire blasters will kill units. A 10 man lascannon squad will kill tanks. A 10 man warpfire cannon will kill troops, too, but from far away. Basically, don't bother with vehicles. Get as many bodies on the table as you can. 3x 20 man close combat units. Some warpfire blasters. 2 heavy support. After that, just tack on more killy. I LOVE Ashen Circle. They murder hard. I switch around with other things I'm using from here. Sometimes I take a Praetor with Iconoclast. Sometimes I take Zardu for his buff on my big units. The pass Ld WL trait is definitely the better option, but it's boring. lol. All in all, it's fairly easy to kill the sacrifice unit, and it's extremely rare to get hit by the perils (i've never actually taken the perils yet). Last of the Serrated Suns: Yeah, no. Starting off poor here, my friend. While this RoW isn't fantastic, GV as troops isn't the reason to take it. Gaining access to drop pods is the reason. A couple tacs in pods will be fine. I like to throw Argel Tal, a Chaplain, and 9 GV into a Kharybdis (lots of points, i know) and then they get Line. This is definitely the weaker of the two RoW but it has its place. In HH 1.0 I did fill up my elites with apothecaries, 2x vets, and a dread, but in HH 2.0, not so much. So yeah, it's meh. It's cool, but it's meh. Gaining access to pods is really the draw here. Tainted Weapons: You miss a thing here. ONLY characters can take it. Terminators can't take it. God, I wish I could take them on terminators. That would be hilarious lol. But alas, characters only. Praetor will NEVER take one (paragon blade only, still). I throw them on sgt, most consuls, and apothecaries, for the most part. Tainted sword is the best option most of the time, but tainted maul is also super good. NEVER take a tainted axe. They're trash. If you think you want one, take a power fist instead. Same points most of the time. Warpfire Weapons: You said, "they suck." This is SOOOOOOOOOO insanely wrong. This gun is INSANE. S6 AP4 Pinning, Breach (4+). Pinning is SO good in this edition, and couple that with Fear (1) all over the place from your Corrupted units, and you've gotta decent chance for it. A despoiler squad can have 5 of these things, and then their +1 attack gets triggered cuz you just pinned a bitch. No, omg no, you could not be further from the truth here. On top of all of that, the replacement to the Plasma Gun is the Warpfire Blaster than makes them Assault 2. And here's the cool thing that you SO missed. It removes "Gets Hot." Seriously, I just do not understand what you're saying here. They're so fucking good. Boltspitters: I actually agree with you here 100%. It's weird. Like... why? lol. Corrupted Unit: Ok, i think I've figured it out. Word Bearers aren't your legion. Nothing sounds good to you. This is good. This is VERY good. Fear alone is super good, especially with their Legion Trait. Immune to Fear is... fine? It's good. Better than Fearless IMO (can still take reactions). Instant Death from Force is the suck, but also this won't come into play most of the time. You're mostly putting this buff on 20 man blobs or tactical support with warpfire blasters. I've been tempted to use it on Dreads, but all they get is the Fear, so.... meh? On Gal Vorbak it definitely can be an issue. Getting hit by spells sucks and they go pop. Honestly, a low price to pay for the super buffs. And for the no fall back, instead take d3 wounds. This is REALLY good. GV are 3W, meaning you won't typically lose one to it. And the other melee units you take it on will typically be 20 man units so... meh? lose d3 and stay in fight? That's fine. I'll take that. Not to mention that only happens if you fail, and Ld10 isn't exactly uncommon (thank you Chaplain). Ld6 at worst is super good, but shouldn't be relied upon. But in my experience, vexilla plus the legion trait means you're not losing combat all that often, unless you just get stomped by a beefier unit, then you're gunna die anyway. Losing a couple more models instead of running to hold up the stroink unit is A-OK in my book. You said, "But you could fail a moral check for a number of reasons." Except, you're not taking d3 from failing a pinning check (or other moral). The d3 wounds is a replacement effect for Fall Back. It is ONLY for failing moral after losing combat. It does not cause wounds for other moral checks. Diabolist: "Dark Channeling on a Librarian" Uh... no? Sure, more powers to pick from, but you're tacking on an extra 25 points for that. The Diabolist powers are GOOD. Ridiculous? Nah, but definitely good. You ALWAYS get the +1S/+1T even if you fail, and HoW (3) is cool cuz, guess what, it's a S5 at least (on a praetor with Enslaved by Darkness it's S6). I'm so confused as to why you think +1S/T is bad. Like... what? Literally WHAT? S5 is a big deal. T5 is a big deal. The template weapon is pretty damn good. Rend and defligrate? LOL. Come on, that's just hilarious. I've killed many a marine with this thing. Think of it as a librarian (gets the same bonuses) and then ALSO gets the corrupted subtype. Bruh, it's decent. It stands out. I take it most (not all) of the time. Your assessment on these powers is so weird. Gal Vorbak: yeah, no invuln kinda sucks. They had it last edition. Argel Tal joining them gives them a 5++ and Line. The FNP is better than normal cuz they're T5, so at least they're not gunna get power fisted. Having W3 is huge, too. They do the absolute murders in CC, though. Hard to beat them. I feel like you're not reading the rule book like... at all. The extra weapon replaces their bolter. So the tainted talon is an extra weapon and therefore gives that model +1 attack for free, losing the bolter. It's literally how the rules are written. Two melee weapons = +1 attack. Power fist is still good, but I mostly don't care. Pretty much agree with you on this point. S10 power fist is still good for other reasons, though. Ashen Circle: DID YOU JUST SAY THEY DOWNGRADED!? LITERALLY WHAT!? Who gives a fuck about the rad grenades? Sure. Rad grenades are good. Having rad grenades would make this unit OP. Rad grenades are NOT needed here. They're not worse than dragons breath flamers cuz torrent and pinning. They're just different. I wouldn't compare them. Sure, no 1d6 wall of fire, but if you're getting charged you fucked up. You're also missing the fact that their axes are AP3 now. They were AP4 in HH 1.0. I'm so insanely blown away about your assessment here. I absolutely fucking MURDER shit with these guys. A single 10 man unit does fucking work. Summary: Overall, I think you've completely missed the mark here. I'm wondering if the thing you're missing is the synergy. This army isn't about a single unit, or any single thing. It's about the fact that everything synergizes with everything. Lots of pinning opportunities in a melee favored legion? Take despoilers. Some actual good shooting for troop murdering? Sounds great. Decent psychic discipline that can go onto your Praetor? Cool. Basically every character having murderous strike? Badass. As you said, there's nothing that really stands out. That's true. That's also the point. Word Bearers are all about synergy and force multipliers. Lorgar is the worst combat Primarch (although can get a meme-y WS10), but he's a fantastic army buffing Primarch. Same with all the characters. None of the characters (save for Argel tal) are very murdery on their own, but they add to the unit or army. When combining all of this stuff, this legion is pretty fucking nuts. Have I won every game? Hell no, and I'm glad that's the case. I don't want to. But I will more than I don't. This legion fucks.
I know this is necrobumping, but can you explain the tainted claws thing? And also, how do you utilise your Ashen circle? Cause I have a hard time getting them to work.
@@sempthegreat Not sure what exactly you're asking about tainted claws (talons). They're basically tainted power claws. You can replace a bolter with an extra claw, giving the one guy +1 attack. Given that theyre a melee unit, If you don't want the special weapon, I dump the bolter every time. Ashen circle are definitely niche. I think they're very fun, but they started to not make it into all my lists eventually. Basically the two ways to run them are MSU, at least two units as a distraction, or load them to 10 + your warpfire moritat (or honestly, without him cuz he isn't super necessary) for maximum shooting and pinning. I've taken out units of iron hands with their deathball build in one round of shooting + charge. If you run MSU, run 2 units with no upgrades, they're a distraction unit. It's still 5 pinning flamers and S5 power weapons, so it's hard to ignore, but they're gunna be cheaper and all 10 cant get one shot so losing them doesn't feel bad.
I also can’t wait for the Thousand Sons episode. It’s definitely one of those legions that doesn’t receive any direct buffs to vehicles whatsoever, so I’m curious how much it deviates from “all infantry, all the time”.
Word Bearers are really weird right now, I think they're roughly a mid tier army rn, but will get some absolutely degenerate buffs once Daemons of the Ruinstorm get rules. I have about 1500pts of both armies from 1st ed just waiting to slay some Raven Guard lol. I found your channel years ago through this exact series for 1st ed Tsons, best reccomended channel to date man, keep up the great work, can't wait to see the Thousand Sons episode!
The Word Bearers Advanced Reaction is ignored by Ordanance, Destroyer, Blast and Template weapons. The example given with the Fellblade is incorrect, as the Reaction would only tank the lascannon and bolt shots.
you’re not taking warp fire weapons to kill you’re taking them to pin also are you really surprised the corrupted dreadnaught is traitor only? Come on now
I was more alluding to the fact it has no Rite of War mentioning it when it seems like it would go well in the Last of the Serrated Suns. Also it’s hilarious that it’s traitor only in a “no way” joke way. As for the pinning, you have to get kills, and there are far better pinning weapons than warpfire. Also what’s with the bolt spitter?
@@TheOuterCircle When it comes to Warpfire weapons, I'm in the camp of seeing them as being pretty effective, if maybe a bit pricy. The difference between S6 and S7 is negligible where T5 and lower is concerned, and even with their ability to wound with AP2 being restricted to a 4+ they're still able to wound marines on a 2+, on average making 3 out of every 5 successful wounds a breaching shot. To compare and contrast with other Pinning weapons: - Rotor Cannons rely solely on volume of hits; - Nemesis Bolters wound marines on 3+ and rend on 5+; - Frag Missiles, Quad Mortar Incendiary & Splinter Shells and Arcus Pyrax Warheads rely heavily on volume of hits via blast templates; and - Kratos Battlecannon HE Shells and Morbus Bombards almost exclusively rely on volume of wounds via template and high strength. Given that the example you cited involved 5 plasma cannons scoring 4 kills vs a 10-man tactical squad, I'm willing to wager that less than average rolling was involved on scattering, wounding, or both. This is especially given a lack of context regarding outside circumstances such as a source of cognis-signum or nuncio-vox for the unit to mitigate scattering, model placement preventing you from being able to hit more than 3 models on even a decent scatter, and so on.
@@TheOuterCircle do you not know what the concept of fire and maneuver is? if you have someone who can't move then they're easier to charge especially if they can't do much to react to the charge plus HH is a game of objectives and not just slaughtering your opponents. the comment by liam also points out the strengths of the weapons which makes me think you took them at face value instead of comparing and contrasting them with other pinning weapons.
@@OmegaSolider13 unfortunately when it comes to pinning, it's not wise to bet on it. It's a gimmick that can be very useful, but with plasma or plasma-like weapons now, where 5 out of 6 shots killed in the past, it's more like 3 out of 6 now, and that statistical difference matters. Combine that with more access to apothecaries, as well as reactions to either withdraw your troops from the range of those weapons, or outright retaliate/damage mitigate and it's a game changer.
@@TheOuterCircle you need a single unsaved wound to force a pinning test and in an army like word bearers where you can lots of stuff of fear your odds of actually succeding are much higher than you give it credit for. even if all you take are warp fire pistols for sgts, you still have a decent of chance of causing the pin if you're charing into close combat especially for units like despoilers or assaults'. hell i'm sure with spite of the legion you're gonna want warp fire anyways. plus they're more reliable on the account of losing gets hot. you may think it's a gimmick but you're failing to see the bigger picture here. melee units are going to want these.
Long time consumer of lore. Never played 30 or 40K on the table top. I like the Space Marine focus of 30K. I'm trying to figure out how I feel about each of the 30K legions in 2.0. I'm sort of intrigued by the Raven Guard, Nightlords, and Iron Warriors, but I've been holding off until I can sort of understand the ins and outs, which you're doing a wonderful job of providing. Thanks for the nicely structured analysis.
Why wouldn't the second tainted talon give the gal vorbak another attack? It's a second melee weapon, and any model with more than 1 melee weapon gains an additional attack.
Well, the listing is for “tainted talons” in the legion wargear, there’s no singular, no explanation of what multiple do etc. the Gal come with a single talon. Does taking the second give them the talons rule or does a single talon also have that stat? Go read it and you’ll see what I mean.
@@TheOuterCircle I see what you mean, but I interpret it as they are equipped with a "Tainted Talons" and may replace their boltgun - excuse me, boltspitter - with a second "Tainted Talons". Regardless of name that model is now equipped with two melee weapons, thus +1 attack.
Do the warp fire guns have any application for pinning? Like putting them in despoiler squads, where even if a handful of plasma pistols only cause one unsaved wound the despoilers get +1 attack if the unit fails its pinning check?
Boltspitters are rapid fire so chainging it for another tainted talon gives you the extra attack in melee for 2 weapons. Kinda weird since the models have pistols and not bolters
As one warlord trait and both rites of war indic6that they are traitor only, does this mean that we can take loyalist Word Bearers now? Didn't think we could in HH1.0. I have an idea for a Loyalist Barthisa Narek led Recon company force.
You can. Strangely Burning Lore isn't limited to traitors but dark channelling is, so you could have it but a then you couldn't join any squads. Tainted weapons and warpfire weapons aren't locked to traitor either. You could rename them Holy fire weapons or something instead for some Imperial Heralds proto-grey knights or something, or not
So I have used a 10-man warpfire support squad and they just destroy infantry which is good. The gal vorbak do not have a dedicated transport which sucks greatly and Tainted weapons can only be taken by characters. No champion is required for Dark Brethren and I am somewhat sorry for nick picking your video. As a whole, the video was good and I think a strength 8 gal vorbak in Dark Brethren or strength 7 base praetor could be horrendous if a power fist/chain fist/thunder hammer would be strength 14 instead of 11. Have a nice day
The Dark Brethren RoW doesn't require you taking a Champion consul. You don't mention it but your graphic says it. It feels narrative and fun imo. There's a really memey thing you can do to make Lorgar WS 10 if you upgrade him 3x and bring Kor Phaeron lol.
Counter not having something for your vehicles with only playing infantry then you loose like 5 or 6 guys each round only with glorious martyrdom, the meme dream.
I actually really like the dark brethren right of war, being able to give a unit of Ghal Vorback WS6 or Lorgar up to 7 (8 with Kor Phearon) is huge. And if you choose an important unit to sacrafice that isn't too hard to kill then it hampers the enemy ability if they try and hide that unit. Also you can build your list however you like as there aren't any unit restrictions or anything like that
Lorgar can buff his melee stats with diabolism too. I like the way Lorgar can fight his primarch brothers, but only when he's fully juiced on the gifts of the dark Gods, very fluffy
I feel like you gave props to the weakest abilities in the army and down played the strongest. 1) the point you gain gives +1 str, Ws AND movement… not or. You get all 3. That is extremely strong considering how big of a deal being a higher weapon skill is in close combat. Also you simply just make models like Rhinos the targets. Very easy to pop one in this edition to get those buffs rolling. 2) the main thing about warp fire is pinning and removing gets hot. You don’t use them like plasma weapons. You put random ones throughout the army to force pinning checks. Since it’s easy for Word Bearers to get fear this is really good combo for avoiding those overwatches or triggering spite of the legion. 3) tainted weapons can’t be taken on anything but characters 4) I’m confused why you think capping leadership reduction to 6 is good but didn’t drive home how amazing dark channeling is by making it so you can’t fail moral.
Speaking of objectives and line units, do you have any plans to cover the mission types that are in the main rule book at all? Just for those who are coming from 8th/9th 40k or some specialist games (like a friend of mine who I've pointed to your 'Getting Started' videos) and either don't remember the 6/7th rules or never played them.
As for the Mara Gal: Rampage 2 is 2 extra attacks if he's outnumbered, Rage is for the charge I think. It's unique weapons are a bit underwhelming as the warpfire cannon is only small blast so it's worse than just a normal dreadnaughts plasma cannon that gets to be large blast and it's tainted claw does go down from brutal 3 compared to a contemptor dreadnaughts (unless I'm remembering that wrong) which is a bit odd but the murderous strike kinda balances out
One thing about burning Lore is that it's for praetors. So you basically get praetor librarians which is not that common. A power weapon is a 15 point upgrade anyway, so you're essentially paying 10 points for the psychic powers and corrupted subtype, which doesn't seem like a bad deal. Not game breaking, but useable I think
Trying to work out an army with an abusrd amount of daemon units. For heresy one I had argal tal with a load of galvorbak, but now i think i'm gonna have to include basic troops :( Unless at some point later there are some compulsary daemon troops i can access with the warp rift consol
Is running terminators a thing for the word bearers? Or should the cataphractii be sold to just spam on gal vorbak? Also, is there a place or discord to discuss 30k rules, especially for noobs? I've always discussed rules on Auspex Tactics' discord but that's mostly 40k
Frankly I think of the RoE the WB have, dark brethren is the best option, and compliment Gal Vorbak well, mark a target next to them, focus them and wipe them with Gal It seems like a great way to snow ball with a mob of boglins
I don't really see where the legion trait is great 🤔 À 40% chance buff is the definition of unreliable and situational And even the when you lose a combat it's not always a good thing to stick as if it happens during the enemy phase it means the enemy unit will still be locked in combat hence it can't be targeted The serrated sun rite biggest issue is now the fact that the dreadclaw is one of the worst transport of the game as it doesn't have assault vehicle meaning you will reach mele at best on turn 3 And ashen circle never had rad Grenade if I remember correctly They are still a good unit as jump pack units got better in this edition and they also gained stubborn Anyway thanks for the review 😉
The other problem with the core legion rule is that other legion specific rules completely circumvent it. Corrupted units are completely immune to falling back from morale so the legion rule doesn't help them at all save for the winning of unmodified ties. Ashen Circle have stubborn so it doesn't help them all that much. The best warlord trait for them lets them auto pass if they fail the first time. Maybe I'm not seeing every application of it but it seems that your leadership only ever gets that low in combat
@@kylesonmez686 it would also happen in some very specific case with psycher using telepathy discipline with the pinning power and psychic hood Ultra specific though... Imo the legion trait is bad but WB only shines thanks to their legion unit and some good characters but the rites and the legion trait are at best mediocre
@@CaptainPlunk Ah I never would have considered that situation lol. I definitely agree that the word bearers are carried on their units and that the legion rule isn't the best That said it is a little feels bad that I managed to play 2 zone mortalis games where my legion rule literally only came up once because I had lost a combat only for me to then fail the leadership check as well
Ashen Circle I'm 99% sure got rad grenades in an FAQ update experimental rules. Happy to be wrong on it. it's like a 46% chance of passing, and it's very important because shell-shock and fear rules cause negative modifiers that I've seen take units down to Ld4 which is nigh on a guarantee failed check. Dreadclaw sucks, hence I didn't dwell on it, sure, it's a transport, but it's bad.
@@kylesonmez686 remember that immune to fear and fearless are not the same thing, you can take morale checks and you can have negative leadership modifiers, some of which stack, so knowing you have a soft boost is a big positive.
Argel tal as the warlord makes corrupted units line subtype. Therefore, as the warlord of a serrated suns army he gives them line and they are already troops. As for the dark bretheren, it’s good to use once your buffing gal vorbak mid assault phase
Yup, and the funny part is you can still take most things (except characters and RoW). You can still take Burning Lore, Tainted Weapons, Warpfire Weapons, Diabolists, and Ashen Circle and be Loyalist.
So a mistake I made was I wrote "requires a champion consul" in one of the slides for the Dark Brethren Rite of War. It doesn't, it was a mistake in editing on my behalf, and although I didn't talk about it during the episode, I did want to clarify it.
The Word Bearers Advanced Reaction is ignored by Ordanance, Destroyer, Blast and Template weapons. The example given in the video with the Fellblade is incorrect, as the Reaction would only tank the lascannon and bolt shots, not the main gun and demolisher. Still, funny to push a guy in front of it.
On the Talons, as I said, a pair naturally makes you think "bonus attacks" but I must point out the rules as intended vs rules as written. The rules as written ONLY list "Tainted Talons" nothing about singular, or matched pairs and extra attacks, I don't care how you choose to play them if you play with me, but some people WILL argue these things out there, hence why I bring it up.
There is no lrule about extra attacks or listing for paired taited talons becasue there is no reason to. 'Tainted talons' are a single melee weapon that is not 2 handed. You don't get a listing for every model that can take 2 melee weapons specifically saying it gives you an extra attack.
RAW by the core rules you get an extra attack if you have 2. It's not like the LCs that give an additional attack over that one becasue if their special rule. You just get the same rule that applies to any other melee weapon.
RAI there would be literally no reason to have taking 2 as an option in exchange of loosing your gun.
@@Cornivius except in 2.0 it blatantly states for weapons how bonuses work regarding paired lightning claws for instance vs a single. That bonus is +2 attacks. Additionally, the weapon is listed as Tainted Talons but on the Gal Vorbak as a Tainted Talon, so is there a statline missing for one, or is it a typo and it's the same weapon. Like in heresy 1.0 with Aether-fire and Aether-flame weapons....
It’s listed as “Tainted Talons” in all instances. On the Gal Vorbak profile and in the WB Armoury. When you replace the boltspitter the model now has 2 melee weapons and this an extra attack as per page 184 in rulebook. It’s really as simple as that and specific weapon rules for Lightning claws have no relevance to the discussion that is a bonus in addition to the base rule for those weapons.
If a model is equipped with 2 Chainswords or 2 power swords etc they will all receive +1A for having 2 melee weapons. It’s the same here for the Tainted Talons
@@Badentrotter But it reads like the model comes with Lightning Claws, you can take another set of Lightning Claws. I understand EXACTLY what you're saying, but it's bad English, and it should say "May upgrade to a pair of Tainted Talons" or "May take a second set of tainted talons" or something to that effect. The minute you add an "S" onto them, it throws out the clarity in rules writing, even if you know the intent.
I'm watching these as a way to work out how to beat all these Legions, as I patiently wait for you to get to the EC. Has actually been very informative.
Truly a big brain move.
W
Notable things about warp fire, the not getting hot is real good and they become assault weapons. So the fact that they can pin and be in the front lines for better assaults which is where word bearers want to be is pretty solid
On plasma guns, eh, maybe, but most people seem to agree they suck compared to other weapons available in the same category.
Edit: the only assault one is the plasma-gun replacement, the others still have their drawbacks.
@@TheOuterCircle imo opinion the other ones are all meh with the exception of a cheeky pistol shot sometimes haha
The bearers of the word are the best !!!
"WB players, if you can see a really good use for this, I really wanna know it"
I got you, boo, cuz you clearly didn't read the rules and don't understand this army at all. (edit at end of video: I got heated but to be clear, not mad. I'm just really really confused)
Iconoclast:
It's +2 S vs fortifications/buildings, and +2 vs terrain with a T. No fortifications or buildings have a T, so while the rule is poorly written, it is also obvious what the intent is here. It's also for the entire unit. It says "they" instead of "the warlord" which makes me think the intent is to continue off of the "warlord and unit" from the previous half of the rule. Again, poorly written, but that seems to be the intent in my opinion. And it makes thematic sense. Iconoclasts are the Ashen Circle. Burninating buildings is their thing. I like it, but the +1 attack is the reason you take this trait (and i love taking it)
The Dark Bretheren:
This RoW is super good. The best? Nah, but DEFINITELY very good. Here's the thing. +1S means 3+ to wound. +1 movement means +1 to charge, and more importantly, +1WS means 3+ to hit enemies, and 5+ to hit your unit. Weapon skill 5 is HUGE. Toss that on a 20 man despoiler or assault squad and you're going to murder things. Something to know is that you're going to build a more well rounded list with this RoW so you can take full advantage of this buff. Getting it in both the shooting AND the assault phase on multiple turns isn't too much to ask. Using a support squad of warpfire blasters will kill units. A 10 man lascannon squad will kill tanks. A 10 man warpfire cannon will kill troops, too, but from far away. Basically, don't bother with vehicles. Get as many bodies on the table as you can. 3x 20 man close combat units. Some warpfire blasters. 2 heavy support. After that, just tack on more killy. I LOVE Ashen Circle. They murder hard. I switch around with other things I'm using from here. Sometimes I take a Praetor with Iconoclast. Sometimes I take Zardu for his buff on my big units. The pass Ld WL trait is definitely the better option, but it's boring. lol. All in all, it's fairly easy to kill the sacrifice unit, and it's extremely rare to get hit by the perils (i've never actually taken the perils yet).
Last of the Serrated Suns:
Yeah, no. Starting off poor here, my friend. While this RoW isn't fantastic, GV as troops isn't the reason to take it. Gaining access to drop pods is the reason. A couple tacs in pods will be fine. I like to throw Argel Tal, a Chaplain, and 9 GV into a Kharybdis (lots of points, i know) and then they get Line. This is definitely the weaker of the two RoW but it has its place. In HH 1.0 I did fill up my elites with apothecaries, 2x vets, and a dread, but in HH 2.0, not so much. So yeah, it's meh. It's cool, but it's meh. Gaining access to pods is really the draw here.
Tainted Weapons:
You miss a thing here. ONLY characters can take it. Terminators can't take it. God, I wish I could take them on terminators. That would be hilarious lol. But alas, characters only. Praetor will NEVER take one (paragon blade only, still). I throw them on sgt, most consuls, and apothecaries, for the most part. Tainted sword is the best option most of the time, but tainted maul is also super good. NEVER take a tainted axe. They're trash. If you think you want one, take a power fist instead. Same points most of the time.
Warpfire Weapons:
You said, "they suck." This is SOOOOOOOOOO insanely wrong. This gun is INSANE. S6 AP4 Pinning, Breach (4+). Pinning is SO good in this edition, and couple that with Fear (1) all over the place from your Corrupted units, and you've gotta decent chance for it. A despoiler squad can have 5 of these things, and then their +1 attack gets triggered cuz you just pinned a bitch. No, omg no, you could not be further from the truth here. On top of all of that, the replacement to the Plasma Gun is the Warpfire Blaster than makes them Assault 2. And here's the cool thing that you SO missed. It removes "Gets Hot." Seriously, I just do not understand what you're saying here. They're so fucking good.
Boltspitters:
I actually agree with you here 100%. It's weird. Like... why? lol.
Corrupted Unit:
Ok, i think I've figured it out. Word Bearers aren't your legion. Nothing sounds good to you. This is good. This is VERY good. Fear alone is super good, especially with their Legion Trait. Immune to Fear is... fine? It's good. Better than Fearless IMO (can still take reactions). Instant Death from Force is the suck, but also this won't come into play most of the time. You're mostly putting this buff on 20 man blobs or tactical support with warpfire blasters. I've been tempted to use it on Dreads, but all they get is the Fear, so.... meh? On Gal Vorbak it definitely can be an issue. Getting hit by spells sucks and they go pop. Honestly, a low price to pay for the super buffs. And for the no fall back, instead take d3 wounds. This is REALLY good. GV are 3W, meaning you won't typically lose one to it. And the other melee units you take it on will typically be 20 man units so... meh? lose d3 and stay in fight? That's fine. I'll take that. Not to mention that only happens if you fail, and Ld10 isn't exactly uncommon (thank you Chaplain). Ld6 at worst is super good, but shouldn't be relied upon. But in my experience, vexilla plus the legion trait means you're not losing combat all that often, unless you just get stomped by a beefier unit, then you're gunna die anyway. Losing a couple more models instead of running to hold up the stroink unit is A-OK in my book. You said, "But you could fail a moral check for a number of reasons." Except, you're not taking d3 from failing a pinning check (or other moral). The d3 wounds is a replacement effect for Fall Back. It is ONLY for failing moral after losing combat. It does not cause wounds for other moral checks.
Diabolist:
"Dark Channeling on a Librarian" Uh... no? Sure, more powers to pick from, but you're tacking on an extra 25 points for that. The Diabolist powers are GOOD. Ridiculous? Nah, but definitely good. You ALWAYS get the +1S/+1T even if you fail, and HoW (3) is cool cuz, guess what, it's a S5 at least (on a praetor with Enslaved by Darkness it's S6). I'm so confused as to why you think +1S/T is bad. Like... what? Literally WHAT? S5 is a big deal. T5 is a big deal. The template weapon is pretty damn good. Rend and defligrate? LOL. Come on, that's just hilarious. I've killed many a marine with this thing. Think of it as a librarian (gets the same bonuses) and then ALSO gets the corrupted subtype. Bruh, it's decent. It stands out. I take it most (not all) of the time. Your assessment on these powers is so weird.
Gal Vorbak:
yeah, no invuln kinda sucks. They had it last edition. Argel Tal joining them gives them a 5++ and Line. The FNP is better than normal cuz they're T5, so at least they're not gunna get power fisted. Having W3 is huge, too. They do the absolute murders in CC, though. Hard to beat them. I feel like you're not reading the rule book like... at all. The extra weapon replaces their bolter. So the tainted talon is an extra weapon and therefore gives that model +1 attack for free, losing the bolter. It's literally how the rules are written. Two melee weapons = +1 attack. Power fist is still good, but I mostly don't care. Pretty much agree with you on this point. S10 power fist is still good for other reasons, though.
Ashen Circle:
DID YOU JUST SAY THEY DOWNGRADED!? LITERALLY WHAT!? Who gives a fuck about the rad grenades? Sure. Rad grenades are good. Having rad grenades would make this unit OP. Rad grenades are NOT needed here. They're not worse than dragons breath flamers cuz torrent and pinning. They're just different. I wouldn't compare them. Sure, no 1d6 wall of fire, but if you're getting charged you fucked up. You're also missing the fact that their axes are AP3 now. They were AP4 in HH 1.0. I'm so insanely blown away about your assessment here. I absolutely fucking MURDER shit with these guys. A single 10 man unit does fucking work.
Summary:
Overall, I think you've completely missed the mark here. I'm wondering if the thing you're missing is the synergy. This army isn't about a single unit, or any single thing. It's about the fact that everything synergizes with everything. Lots of pinning opportunities in a melee favored legion? Take despoilers. Some actual good shooting for troop murdering? Sounds great. Decent psychic discipline that can go onto your Praetor? Cool. Basically every character having murderous strike? Badass. As you said, there's nothing that really stands out. That's true. That's also the point. Word Bearers are all about synergy and force multipliers. Lorgar is the worst combat Primarch (although can get a meme-y WS10), but he's a fantastic army buffing Primarch. Same with all the characters. None of the characters (save for Argel tal) are very murdery on their own, but they add to the unit or army. When combining all of this stuff, this legion is pretty fucking nuts. Have I won every game? Hell no, and I'm glad that's the case. I don't want to. But I will more than I don't. This legion fucks.
Hell yeah
I know this is necrobumping, but can you explain the tainted claws thing? And also, how do you utilise your Ashen circle? Cause I have a hard time getting them to work.
@@sempthegreat Not sure what exactly you're asking about tainted claws (talons). They're basically tainted power claws. You can replace a bolter with an extra claw, giving the one guy +1 attack. Given that theyre a melee unit, If you don't want the special weapon, I dump the bolter every time.
Ashen circle are definitely niche. I think they're very fun, but they started to not make it into all my lists eventually. Basically the two ways to run them are MSU, at least two units as a distraction, or load them to 10 + your warpfire moritat (or honestly, without him cuz he isn't super necessary) for maximum shooting and pinning. I've taken out units of iron hands with their deathball build in one round of shooting + charge. If you run MSU, run 2 units with no upgrades, they're a distraction unit. It's still 5 pinning flamers and S5 power weapons, so it's hard to ignore, but they're gunna be cheaper and all 10 cant get one shot so losing them doesn't feel bad.
Power gaming, neck bearded autistic detected
Nice. Personally can't wait for Night Lords and Thousand Sons.
I also can’t wait for the Thousand Sons episode. It’s definitely one of those legions that doesn’t receive any direct buffs to vehicles whatsoever, so I’m curious how much it deviates from “all infantry, all the time”.
Word Bearers are really weird right now, I think they're roughly a mid tier army rn, but will get some absolutely degenerate buffs once Daemons of the Ruinstorm get rules. I have about 1500pts of both armies from 1st ed just waiting to slay some Raven Guard lol.
I found your channel years ago through this exact series for 1st ed Tsons, best reccomended channel to date man, keep up the great work, can't wait to see the Thousand Sons episode!
Specifically raven guard?
Excellent videos mate. Cant wait for thousand sons pt2.
The Word Bearers Advanced Reaction is ignored by Ordanance, Destroyer, Blast and Template weapons. The example given with the Fellblade is incorrect, as the Reaction would only tank the lascannon and bolt shots.
Good point! I got that wrong, thanks for the correction.
you’re not taking warp fire weapons to kill you’re taking them to pin also are you really surprised the corrupted dreadnaught is traitor only? Come on now
I was more alluding to the fact it has no Rite of War mentioning it when it seems like it would go well in the Last of the Serrated Suns. Also it’s hilarious that it’s traitor only in a “no way” joke way.
As for the pinning, you have to get kills, and there are far better pinning weapons than warpfire. Also what’s with the bolt spitter?
@@TheOuterCircle When it comes to Warpfire weapons, I'm in the camp of seeing them as being pretty effective, if maybe a bit pricy. The difference between S6 and S7 is negligible where T5 and lower is concerned, and even with their ability to wound with AP2 being restricted to a 4+ they're still able to wound marines on a 2+, on average making 3 out of every 5 successful wounds a breaching shot.
To compare and contrast with other Pinning weapons:
- Rotor Cannons rely solely on volume of hits;
- Nemesis Bolters wound marines on 3+ and rend on 5+;
- Frag Missiles, Quad Mortar Incendiary & Splinter Shells and Arcus Pyrax Warheads rely heavily on volume of hits via blast templates; and
- Kratos Battlecannon HE Shells and Morbus Bombards almost exclusively rely on volume of wounds via template and high strength.
Given that the example you cited involved 5 plasma cannons scoring 4 kills vs a 10-man tactical squad, I'm willing to wager that less than average rolling was involved on scattering, wounding, or both. This is especially given a lack of context regarding outside circumstances such as a source of cognis-signum or nuncio-vox for the unit to mitigate scattering, model placement preventing you from being able to hit more than 3 models on even a decent scatter, and so on.
@@TheOuterCircle do you not know what the concept of fire and maneuver is? if you have someone who can't move then they're easier to charge especially if they can't do much to react to the charge plus HH is a game of objectives and not just slaughtering your opponents. the comment by liam also points out the strengths of the weapons which makes me think you took them at face value instead of comparing and contrasting them with other pinning weapons.
@@OmegaSolider13 unfortunately when it comes to pinning, it's not wise to bet on it. It's a gimmick that can be very useful, but with plasma or plasma-like weapons now, where 5 out of 6 shots killed in the past, it's more like 3 out of 6 now, and that statistical difference matters. Combine that with more access to apothecaries, as well as reactions to either withdraw your troops from the range of those weapons, or outright retaliate/damage mitigate and it's a game changer.
@@TheOuterCircle you need a single unsaved wound to force a pinning test and in an army like word bearers where you can lots of stuff of fear your odds of actually succeding are much higher than you give it credit for. even if all you take are warp fire pistols for sgts, you still have a decent of chance of causing the pin if you're charing into close combat especially for units like despoilers or assaults'. hell i'm sure with spite of the legion you're gonna want warp fire anyways. plus they're more reliable on the account of losing gets hot. you may think it's a gimmick but you're failing to see the bigger picture here. melee units are going to want these.
Plz part 3, I still have no idea what to do lol
Long time consumer of lore. Never played 30 or 40K on the table top. I like the Space Marine focus of 30K. I'm trying to figure out how I feel about each of the 30K legions in 2.0. I'm sort of intrigued by the Raven Guard, Nightlords, and Iron Warriors, but I've been holding off until I can sort of understand the ins and outs, which you're doing a wonderful job of providing. Thanks for the nicely structured analysis.
The problem with the Diabolist is that you really need the Esoterist if you want to include Daemons and don’t have Lorgar upgraded or Erebus.
Why wouldn't the second tainted talon give the gal vorbak another attack? It's a second melee weapon, and any model with more than 1 melee weapon gains an additional attack.
Well, the listing is for “tainted talons” in the legion wargear, there’s no singular, no explanation of what multiple do etc. the Gal come with a single talon. Does taking the second give them the talons rule or does a single talon also have that stat? Go read it and you’ll see what I mean.
@@TheOuterCircle I see what you mean, but I interpret it as they are equipped with a "Tainted Talons" and may replace their boltgun - excuse me, boltspitter - with a second "Tainted Talons". Regardless of name that model is now equipped with two melee weapons, thus +1 attack.
Do the warp fire guns have any application for pinning? Like putting them in despoiler squads, where even if a handful of plasma pistols only cause one unsaved wound the despoilers get +1 attack if the unit fails its pinning check?
There are situations, but I think they are overall mediocre and plasma is dead this edition anyway.
Yes. And give the Despoilers Dark Channeling for the Fear (1) and you've got a better than most chance of getting them to fail that check.
Boltspitters are rapid fire so chainging it for another tainted talon gives you the extra attack in melee for 2 weapons. Kinda weird since the models have pistols and not bolters
No it doesn't, not RAW. Rules as interpreted, maybe, sure. I do talk about it in my pinned post.
As one warlord trait and both rites of war indic6that they are traitor only, does this mean that we can take loyalist Word Bearers now? Didn't think we could in HH1.0.
I have an idea for a Loyalist Barthisa Narek led Recon company force.
You can. Strangely Burning Lore isn't limited to traitors but dark channelling is, so you could have it but a then you couldn't join any squads. Tainted weapons and warpfire weapons aren't locked to traitor either. You could rename them Holy fire weapons or something instead for some Imperial Heralds proto-grey knights or something, or not
From what i know, there were only like 3 loyalist word bearer's, who died on the ship sent into the eye if terror....
Just saying.
There is Barthusa Narek who is in two heresy novels. About as loyal as a Word Bearer could get.
So I have used a 10-man warpfire support squad and they just destroy infantry which is good. The gal vorbak do not have a dedicated transport which sucks greatly and Tainted weapons can only be taken by characters. No champion is required for Dark Brethren and I am somewhat sorry for nick picking your video. As a whole, the video was good and I think a strength 8 gal vorbak in Dark Brethren or strength 7 base praetor could be horrendous if a power fist/chain fist/thunder hammer would be strength 14 instead of 11. Have a nice day
The Dark Brethren RoW doesn't require you taking a Champion consul. You don't mention it but your graphic says it. It feels narrative and fun imo. There's a really memey thing you can do to make Lorgar WS 10 if you upgrade him 3x and bring Kor Phaeron lol.
Counter not having something for your vehicles with only playing infantry then you loose like 5 or 6 guys each round only with glorious martyrdom, the meme dream.
Loving the content. Really wish you'd started from the bottom as I'm beginning Dark Angels 😂
Same.
I actually really like the dark brethren right of war, being able to give a unit of Ghal Vorback WS6 or Lorgar up to 7 (8 with Kor Phearon) is huge. And if you choose an important unit to sacrafice that isn't too hard to kill then it hampers the enemy ability if they try and hide that unit. Also you can build your list however you like as there aren't any unit restrictions or anything like that
Lorgar can buff his melee stats with diabolism too. I like the way Lorgar can fight his primarch brothers, but only when he's fully juiced on the gifts of the dark Gods, very fluffy
I feel like you gave props to the weakest abilities in the army and down played the strongest.
1) the point you gain gives +1 str, Ws AND movement… not or. You get all 3. That is extremely strong considering how big of a deal being a higher weapon skill is in close combat.
Also you simply just make models like Rhinos the targets. Very easy to pop one in this edition to get those buffs rolling.
2) the main thing about warp fire is pinning and removing gets hot. You don’t use them like plasma weapons. You put random ones throughout the army to force pinning checks. Since it’s easy for Word Bearers to get fear this is really good combo for avoiding those overwatches or triggering spite of the legion.
3) tainted weapons can’t be taken on anything but characters
4) I’m confused why you think capping leadership reduction to 6 is good but didn’t drive home how amazing dark channeling is by making it so you can’t fail moral.
Speaking of objectives and line units, do you have any plans to cover the mission types that are in the main rule book at all? Just for those who are coming from 8th/9th 40k or some specialist games (like a friend of mine who I've pointed to your 'Getting Started' videos) and either don't remember the 6/7th rules or never played them.
Short answer, yes.
@@TheOuterCircle Short reply, sweet.
As for the Mara Gal: Rampage 2 is 2 extra attacks if he's outnumbered, Rage is for the charge I think. It's unique weapons are a bit underwhelming as the warpfire cannon is only small blast so it's worse than just a normal dreadnaughts plasma cannon that gets to be large blast and it's tainted claw does go down from brutal 3 compared to a contemptor dreadnaughts (unless I'm remembering that wrong) which is a bit odd but the murderous strike kinda balances out
One thing about burning Lore is that it's for praetors. So you basically get praetor librarians which is not that common. A power weapon is a 15 point upgrade anyway, so you're essentially paying 10 points for the psychic powers and corrupted subtype, which doesn't seem like a bad deal. Not game breaking, but useable I think
The corrupted sub-type is sometimes good, sometimes bad, it's additional baggage to the psychic powers which is the questionable part.
@@TheOuterCircle It's 99% good and then 1% bad when fighting that one librarian, and that's it.
Trying to work out an army with an abusrd amount of daemon units.
For heresy one I had argal tal with a load of galvorbak, but now i think i'm gonna have to include basic troops :(
Unless at some point later there are some compulsary daemon troops i can access with the warp rift consol
After several weeks of playing, I can confirm that you MUST tac Line units in addition to your GV. You will lose 90% of the time without them.
@@Sothas yeah I think i'm going to wait for ruinstorm release to get my daemon centric army. Might have some word bearer allies
@@nightingale4632 that's fair. I really like the legion overall. I'm very happy with the new editions rules for them.
@@Sothas i like their rules, just love the whole daemon style of models
@@nightingale4632 Yeah, that's honestly super important. The GV models are what originally drew me to WB in 1.0.
Fucking love these. Making my summer holiday a whole lot better
He loves them.
Is running terminators a thing for the word bearers? Or should the cataphractii be sold to just spam on gal vorbak? Also, is there a place or discord to discuss 30k rules, especially for noobs? I've always discussed rules on Auspex Tactics' discord but that's mostly 40k
You could probably run em as nullificators which make good WB special termies
Frankly I think of the RoE the WB have, dark brethren is the best option, and compliment Gal Vorbak well, mark a target next to them, focus them and wipe them with Gal
It seems like a great way to snow ball with a mob of boglins
I don't really see where the legion trait is great 🤔
À 40% chance buff is the definition of unreliable and situational
And even the when you lose a combat it's not always a good thing to stick as if it happens during the enemy phase it means the enemy unit will still be locked in combat hence it can't be targeted
The serrated sun rite biggest issue is now the fact that the dreadclaw is one of the worst transport of the game as it doesn't have assault vehicle meaning you will reach mele at best on turn 3
And ashen circle never had rad Grenade if I remember correctly
They are still a good unit as jump pack units got better in this edition and they also gained stubborn
Anyway thanks for the review 😉
The other problem with the core legion rule is that other legion specific rules completely circumvent it.
Corrupted units are completely immune to falling back from morale so the legion rule doesn't help them at all save for the winning of unmodified ties.
Ashen Circle have stubborn so it doesn't help them all that much.
The best warlord trait for them lets them auto pass if they fail the first time.
Maybe I'm not seeing every application of it but it seems that your leadership only ever gets that low in combat
@@kylesonmez686 it would also happen in some very specific case with psycher using telepathy discipline with the pinning power and psychic hood
Ultra specific though...
Imo the legion trait is bad but WB only shines thanks to their legion unit and some good characters but the rites and the legion trait are at best mediocre
@@CaptainPlunk Ah I never would have considered that situation lol. I definitely agree that the word bearers are carried on their units and that the legion rule isn't the best
That said it is a little feels bad that I managed to play 2 zone mortalis games where my legion rule literally only came up once because I had lost a combat only for me to then fail the leadership check as well
Ashen Circle I'm 99% sure got rad grenades in an FAQ update experimental rules. Happy to be wrong on it.
it's like a 46% chance of passing, and it's very important because shell-shock and fear rules cause negative modifiers that I've seen take units down to Ld4 which is nigh on a guarantee failed check.
Dreadclaw sucks, hence I didn't dwell on it, sure, it's a transport, but it's bad.
@@kylesonmez686 remember that immune to fear and fearless are not the same thing, you can take morale checks and you can have negative leadership modifiers, some of which stack, so knowing you have a soft boost is a big positive.
What if you gave the Dread King the Burning Lore and used that dark power on him?
He isn't a legion praetor, which means he cannot take it, only Dark Channeling.
@@TheOuterCircle Ah, rubbish. Thanks for the clarification!
Argel tal as the warlord makes corrupted units line subtype. Therefore, as the warlord of a serrated suns army he gives them line and they are already troops. As for the dark bretheren, it’s good to use once your buffing gal vorbak mid assault phase
So can you even play loyalist word bearers
Yup, and the funny part is you can still take most things (except characters and RoW). You can still take Burning Lore, Tainted Weapons, Warpfire Weapons, Diabolists, and Ashen Circle and be Loyalist.
When thousand sons
Two legion videos away.
thank after the EC, I would make a Wordbearer force. its a pity that there is nothing for the few loyalist Wordbearers.