Both Mary and Anne Boleyn had little choice when it came to dealing with the king’s advances. In their time, refusing the king wasn’t really an option, especially when family ambitions were involved. It’s heartbreaking to think about how little control they had over their own lives.
Good point about both sisters participation in elevating their family's fortunes though I would say Anne got as high she can. The problem is what Henry loved about Anne as a mistress he didn't love as a wife. Love may be blind but marriage can be an eye opener. Great video Jon!
You’ve hit the nail on the head-Anne’s rise helped elevate the Boleyn family, but once she was queen, the dynamics changed. It’s sad to think how quickly Henry’s love turned cold. I appreciate your kind words about the video! Thanks Einez
The question that launched a thousand books and films. Henry having relations with a pair of sisters is really the first indexation that Henry thought the rules didn’t apply to him. What ever took place I don’t think either sister had a lot of control over the kings liking. No one could say no to Henry for long.
That’s such a great point Liam. Henry’s relationships with both Anne and Mary Boleyn were early signs that he believed he was above the rules. It’s hard to imagine either sister having much say in the matter-when the king took an interest, resisting wasn’t really an option.
@LiamDeeley I think neither Mary or Anne Boleyn had a choice. Because their families were looking for prestige, and titles and being able to attend and invited to the English court lavish parties!!!!
Exactly. And if she would've been allowed an attorney, she would not have been executed. OR if she would've been allowed to speak at her own trial, she had the intelligence to defend herself. But none of this mattered because Henry wanted her GONE. Not just away from court, but dead. And that's what he got.
The annulment does complicate the accusation of adultery, and you’re right to question it. Incest was indeed a crime punishable by death, but in Anne’s case, the charges were likely more about removing her than any actual wrongdoing.
It’s tragic to think how Anne’s intelligence could have saved her if the trial had been just. But as you pointed out, Henry had already decided her fate, and there was little she could do to change that.
Henry probably didn't want to hassle with another devoted wife unwilling to agree to an annulment. She worked so hard to be a wife,and not a mistress.I think he knew she would fight it like Catherine did. So he had her beheaded to be done with her. Ironic she would have kept her head if she went about being his mistress.
I feel sorry for mary I believe due to the 8 years I studied tudor history that her family pushed her to be Henry's mistress for there own gain but mary didn't ask for anything from henry then when she finds true love the family including ann abandon her as for her children I believe her daughter catherine is Henry's child she's the spitting image of Elizabeth the 1st 😊
It’s so sad to think that Mary was likely pushed into becoming Henry’s mistress for her family’s gain. She truly seemed to want nothing more than to find genuine love, which makes it even sadder that her family abandoned her when she did. The resemblance between her daughter Catherine and Elizabeth I is definitely intriguing!
@@HistoryRoadshow hello yes it's really sad I think mary is a fascinating lady obviously ann and George are the most famous. Poor mary at least she found love and yes definitely Mary's daughter is definitely Henry's well that's my thoughts
Henry’s acknowledgment of his illegitimate children certainly added layers to the Tudor legacy. Mary’s son’s connection to the king adds even more depth to the Boleyn family story.
I thought there is no evidence as to when Mary’s affair with Henry happened and it happened before she was married. I also suspect it was very, very short as Thomas Cromwell tried to deny a sexual relationship between them at one point. There is a story of a conversation between Henry, Cromwell and I think a diplomat. The diplomat raised some rumours he had heard that Henry had had an affair with both Anne’s mother and her sister. Henry responded, ‘Not the mother,’ Cromwell then said quickly ‘Not the sister either’ Cromwell’s comment could have only had any sort of credibility if the affair was very short and not that well known, unlike the affair with Bessie Blount
You’re right-there’s no definitive timeline for when Mary’s affair with Henry took place, and it’s often suggested that it was brief. The story about Henry, Cromwell, and the diplomat adds another layer of mystery to the affair, especially with Cromwell’s quick denial. It’s fascinating how much is still uncertain about their relationship.
You’re spot on. The expert on the Boleyns, has stated they know they slept together once. See The Anne Boleyn Files and Tudor society.😊 (Claire Ridgeway)
Thank you Theresa I’m glad you enjoyed the video. It’s heartbreaking to think how powerless Anne and Mary were in the face of Henry VIII’s advances. Their stories really show how complicated life at court could be.
It must have been incredibly painful for Mary to see Anne’s rise and fall at court, let alone witness her beheading. It’s hard to even imagine how that would affect her.
Both were in an impossible position with the King. Archival evidence shows a loving marriage between Anne & Henry (that they were "merry together") until his TBI accident. THAT'S when it really changed for them. Granted, Elizabeth's birth was a political embarrassment, but Henry and Anne appear **from this side of history** quite passionately in love. They were even united about the position Mary Boleyn played at court, and even the punishment for her disobedience later. For all intents and purposes, Anne seem's genuine in her affection, considering the precarious position she was put in by the King.
I appreciate you bringing up these historical details! It’s true that Anne and Henry were genuinely close and united on several matters before things soured. Understanding the impact of Henry’s accident adds so much depth to their story.
It really is amazing that the Boleyn sisters still captivate us after all these centuries. Their stories have shaped so much of history, and it’s fascinating to see how their legacy continues in 2024. I’m glad you enjoyed the video Trish
Different times and different thinkings... to state the obvious, many women were 'pawns' in their family's ambitions and who was going to reject the king's 'attention'? As always, a good video, thank you.
You’re absolutely right-many women, especially in noble families, had little choice and were often used as pawns to advance their family’s status. Refusing the king’s attention wasn’t really an option. I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
The more likely birth dates are possibly 1499 for Mary and 1501 for Anne, given the age she would have been serving at the two foreign courts. I am inclined to go with these dates.
Many historians do lean toward the idea that Mary was born around 1499 and Anne in 1501. These dates make sense, especially considering their time at the foreign courts. It’s always fascinating to explore these details! Thanks Ali
Dont think Mary died in poverty. She married again - a William Stafford, a gentleman rather than an aristocrat. She was given Rochford Hall, in Essex- a Boleyn property. She and Stafford ran it. I think she only lived a few years afterwards. Not sure what happened to Stafford. He had his own property in the Rochford area before marrying Mary.
Mary didn’t exactly die in a rags-to-riches reversal-more like ‘aristocrat-to-gentlewoman!’ She and William Stafford had Rochford Hall to manage, so it wasn’t all doom and gloom for her in the end! It could appear as poverty compared to her previous life at court.
@HistoryRoadshow Rochford Hall is down the road from me - !! In its time i think it was a substantial property. I think some of it is gone. It's now used by a local golf club - coincidentally, i'm going to a friends party there tonight!
Both girls had their rises and downfalls in their lives but it was the time. I fell sorry for them but who knows what life who'd have been if Henry's first wife had given. A son then so many lives wouldn't have come to such a bad end.
Both Anne and Mary Boleyn experienced incredible highs and devastating lows, and much of it was tied to the unpredictable world of Henry’s court. If Catherine of Aragon had given Henry a son, so much tragedy might have been avoided for many, including the Boleyn sisters.
Both Mary and Anne were 'sexy-romantic' in different ways. Sisters sometimes might appear different, but are 'say the same thing' upon closer inspection. (Descendants of Jaquetta of Luxembourg and Elizabeth Woodville are going to be 'femme fatales', just saying). Thank you again Jon!
It’s really interesting to think about how Anne and Mary’s romantic allure might be linked to their powerful lineage. The Boleyn sisters certainly inherited more than just beauty-they inherited a legacy! Thanks Lisette
Mary and Anne didn't have the option of NO or saying NO to any King.
I often wonder what if they asked Catherine of Aragon for help. Anne believed she was chosen.
Both Mary and Anne Boleyn had little choice when it came to dealing with the king’s advances. In their time, refusing the king wasn’t really an option, especially when family ambitions were involved. It’s heartbreaking to think about how little control they had over their own lives.
I thought I read somewhere that their parents and an uncle pushed them towards the king for their own advancement.
Good point about both sisters participation in elevating their family's fortunes though I would say Anne got as high she can. The problem is what Henry loved about Anne as a mistress he didn't love as a wife. Love may be blind but marriage can be an eye opener. Great video Jon!
You’ve hit the nail on the head-Anne’s rise helped elevate the Boleyn family, but once she was queen, the dynamics changed. It’s sad to think how quickly Henry’s love turned cold. I appreciate your kind words about the video! Thanks Einez
The question that launched a thousand books and films. Henry having relations with a pair of sisters is really the first indexation that Henry thought the rules didn’t apply to him. What ever took place I don’t think either sister had a lot of control over the kings liking. No one could say no to Henry for long.
That’s such a great point Liam. Henry’s relationships with both Anne and Mary Boleyn were early signs that he believed he was above the rules. It’s hard to imagine either sister having much say in the matter-when the king took an interest, resisting wasn’t really an option.
@LiamDeeley I think neither Mary or Anne Boleyn had a choice. Because their families were looking for prestige, and titles and being able to attend and invited to the English court lavish parties!!!!
If the marriage was annulled, that means it was never valid. Therefore, she could not have committed adultery. Was incest a crime punishable by death?
Exactly. And if she would've been allowed an attorney, she would not have been executed. OR if she would've been allowed to speak at her own trial, she had the intelligence to defend herself. But none of this mattered because Henry wanted her GONE. Not just away from court, but dead. And that's what he got.
The annulment does complicate the accusation of adultery, and you’re right to question it. Incest was indeed a crime punishable by death, but in Anne’s case, the charges were likely more about removing her than any actual wrongdoing.
It’s tragic to think how Anne’s intelligence could have saved her if the trial had been just. But as you pointed out, Henry had already decided her fate, and there was little she could do to change that.
Henry probably didn't want to hassle with another devoted wife unwilling to agree to an annulment. She worked so hard to be a wife,and not a mistress.I think he knew she would fight it like Catherine did. So he had her beheaded to be done with her. Ironic she would have kept her head if she went about being his mistress.
Yes according to Henry!
Another great choice. Love this episode.
Thanks Mary Ann
I feel sorry for mary I believe due to the 8 years I studied tudor history that her family pushed her to be Henry's mistress for there own gain but mary didn't ask for anything from henry then when she finds true love the family including ann abandon her as for her children I believe her daughter catherine is Henry's child she's the spitting image of Elizabeth the 1st 😊
It’s so sad to think that Mary was likely pushed into becoming Henry’s mistress for her family’s gain. She truly seemed to want nothing more than to find genuine love, which makes it even sadder that her family abandoned her when she did. The resemblance between her daughter Catherine and Elizabeth I is definitely intriguing!
@@HistoryRoadshow hello yes it's really sad I think mary is a fascinating lady obviously ann and George are the most famous. Poor mary at least she found love and yes definitely Mary's daughter is definitely Henry's well that's my thoughts
Mary's son was acknowledged as the kings illegitimate son.
He was to be known as rex after his name and different titles,lands and money
Henry’s acknowledgment of his illegitimate children certainly added layers to the Tudor legacy. Mary’s son’s connection to the king adds even more depth to the Boleyn family story.
I thought there is no evidence as to when Mary’s affair with Henry happened and it happened before she was married. I also suspect it was very, very short as Thomas Cromwell tried to deny a sexual relationship between them at one point.
There is a story of a conversation between Henry, Cromwell and I think a diplomat. The diplomat raised some rumours he had heard that Henry had had an affair with both Anne’s mother and her sister.
Henry responded, ‘Not the mother,’
Cromwell then said quickly ‘Not the sister either’ Cromwell’s comment could have only had any sort of credibility if the affair was very short and not that well known, unlike the affair with Bessie Blount
You’re right-there’s no definitive timeline for when Mary’s affair with Henry took place, and it’s often suggested that it was brief. The story about Henry, Cromwell, and the diplomat adds another layer of mystery to the affair, especially with Cromwell’s quick denial. It’s fascinating how much is still uncertain about their relationship.
You’re spot on.
The expert on the Boleyns, has stated they know they slept together once.
See The Anne Boleyn Files and Tudor society.😊 (Claire Ridgeway)
I learned early this year that Mary Boleyn was my 14th great grandma, and Anne was my 14th great grand aunt.
Wow what a good video Jon! I feel sorry for both Ann and Mary. How is one supposed to say no to Henry VII? 😮
Thank you Theresa I’m glad you enjoyed the video. It’s heartbreaking to think how powerless Anne and Mary were in the face of Henry VIII’s advances. Their stories really show how complicated life at court could be.
Perhaps poor Mary didn’t want to see her sister beheaded! That would be the main thing for me. 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
It must have been incredibly painful for Mary to see Anne’s rise and fall at court, let alone witness her beheading. It’s hard to even imagine how that would affect her.
Hehehe, it’s fun recognizing all the stills from The Other Bolyne Girl movie and how the faces have been replaced via AI. I like it!
A new way to re-imagine those iconic scenes with a fresh, historical twist!
Both were in an impossible position with the King. Archival evidence shows a loving marriage between Anne & Henry (that they were "merry together") until his TBI accident. THAT'S when it really changed for them. Granted, Elizabeth's birth was a political embarrassment, but Henry and Anne appear **from this side of history** quite passionately in love. They were even united about the position Mary Boleyn played at court, and even the punishment for her disobedience later. For all intents and purposes, Anne seem's genuine in her affection, considering the precarious position she was put in by the King.
I appreciate you bringing up these historical details! It’s true that Anne and Henry were genuinely close and united on several matters before things soured. Understanding the impact of Henry’s accident adds so much depth to their story.
I find it quite telling that we are still talking about these sisters in 2024. They are so historical. Great video Jon! Job well done!
It really is amazing that the Boleyn sisters still captivate us after all these centuries. Their stories have shaped so much of history, and it’s fascinating to see how their legacy continues in 2024. I’m glad you enjoyed the video Trish
Different times and different thinkings... to state the obvious, many women were 'pawns' in their family's ambitions and who was going to reject the king's 'attention'? As always, a good video, thank you.
You’re absolutely right-many women, especially in noble families, had little choice and were often used as pawns to advance their family’s status. Refusing the king’s attention wasn’t really an option. I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
The more likely birth dates are possibly 1499 for Mary and 1501 for Anne, given the age she would have been serving at the two foreign courts. I am inclined to go with these dates.
Many historians do lean toward the idea that Mary was born around 1499 and Anne in 1501. These dates make sense, especially considering their time at the foreign courts. It’s always fascinating to explore these details! Thanks Ali
@@HistoryRoadshow and they had three brothers including George who apparently was the youngest
Dont think Mary died in poverty. She married again - a William Stafford, a gentleman rather than an aristocrat. She was given Rochford Hall, in Essex- a Boleyn property. She and Stafford ran it. I think she only lived a few years afterwards. Not sure what happened to Stafford. He had his own property in the Rochford area before marrying Mary.
Mary didn’t exactly die in a rags-to-riches reversal-more like ‘aristocrat-to-gentlewoman!’ She and William Stafford had Rochford Hall to manage, so it wasn’t all doom and gloom for her in the end! It could appear as poverty compared to her previous life at court.
@HistoryRoadshow Rochford Hall is down the road from me - !! In its time i think it was a substantial property. I think some of it is gone. It's now used by a local golf club - coincidentally, i'm going to a friends party there tonight!
Enjoy the party 🥳 🎉
@@HistoryRoadshow thanks! 😄
Both girls had their rises and downfalls in their lives but it was the time. I fell sorry for them but who knows what life who'd have been if Henry's first wife had given. A son then so many lives wouldn't have come to such a bad end.
Both Anne and Mary Boleyn experienced incredible highs and devastating lows, and much of it was tied to the unpredictable world of Henry’s court. If Catherine of Aragon had given Henry a son, so much tragedy might have been avoided for many, including the Boleyn sisters.
Anne’s lazy eye 10:10
Both Mary and Anne were 'sexy-romantic' in different ways. Sisters sometimes might appear different, but are 'say the same thing' upon closer inspection. (Descendants of Jaquetta of Luxembourg and Elizabeth Woodville are going to be 'femme fatales', just saying). Thank you again Jon!
It’s really interesting to think about how Anne and Mary’s romantic allure might be linked to their powerful lineage. The Boleyn sisters certainly inherited more than just beauty-they inherited a legacy! Thanks Lisette