Hello there, I'm seeing a lot of comments about audio issues; I'm not 100% sure why this is happening. I can hear the audio myself. To be safe I have taken advice and bought a new mic - we're going lav mic rather than the one I was using which attached to my DSLR. Hopefully, this will sort things before the next video. Thank you for being so kind and supportive in bringing this to my attention - thank you also, in advance, for your understanding and patience as I sort this issue out 🌟
(I experienced no audio issues) re Jane Boleyn: yes, I have always thought of her as a scheming sociopath because of her depiction in The Tudors and in Tudor novels by Philippa Gregory, however, I was uncomfortable with the notion that she was pure evil yet, at the same time, so foolish. Thank you for a clearer, less skewed portrayal of this complex, scarcely understood, historical figure.
Lady Rochford by all appearances is a schemer, she loves the intrigues of court life and will do anything to be at the center of the action, a confident to multiple Queens, sounds more like a manipulator and amoral woman. Some people are happiest when manipulating others lives and being "in on the secret" with little regard to the implications nor the consequences.
I wonder if she hedged her bets that Katherine would outlive Henry, and therefore helped Katherine get what she wanted. Katherine was so young, and Henry so ill, that maybe Jane thought Henry would be dead soon enough that they wouldn't get caught. The idea of using Culpepper to create a child that could be passed off as a new Tudor prince or princess is also intriguing. It might make sense that Jane, who knew Henry's history of struggling to produce healthy children, was worried about Katherine's ability to produce an heir. When we're thinking about political choices at Tudor court, I think the first question to ask is how would that action benefit the actor or their interests? I wonder if Jane, who seems to have previously made some bold political moves, thought that Katherine was her chance at stability and wealth. Jane was wealthy, but due to an allowance from her father in law. When your income is dependent on others, life can be very unpredictable, and I could understand Jane wanting to secure something more stable for herself. Maybe she just lost contact with reality after her husband was executed and she survived. Maybe she thought her political abilities were better than they were or maybe not getting caught gave her overconfidence, but I struggle to see her actions as anything other than intentional and calculated. Over the course of history so many people have supported the wrong faction and paid for it. I think this is just another case of picking the 'wrong' person or people to support.
I completely agree with you. I think Jane saw an opportunity for the future and bet on the wrong horse. I can clearly see her saying in Katherine Howard's ear that she needed to have a baby by any means necessary. And Henry was so sick, probably impotent, and disgusting to have sex with, pushing her toward Culpepper ( who, if the portrait I saw us accurate, kind of resembles Henry) would make perfect sense.
@@angelasmith5174 that would make her his cousin once removed. But from my understanding her grandmother Alice St. John was the first cousin of Henry VII. Alice was the daughter of Sir John St John The older half brother of Margaret Beaufort from her mom's first marriage to Sir Oliver St. John. Her father Sir Henry Parker was Alice's son Thus she and Henry VIII should be second cousins once removed. Sharing a great-grandmother/great-great grandmother in Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso. Her father Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso Sir John St. John Alice St. John Sir Henry Parker Jane Parker Viscountess Rochford Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso Margaret Beaufort Countess Richmond Henry VII Henry VIII
@@AmberGraves80 but if Henry was impotent, he would have known that Katherine Howard couldn't have been pregnant by him? Would he have been willing to accept a son fathered by somebody else and pass it as his own, only prove to people he was capable of fathering children?
I think Henry would of been to proud to accept the fact that he was impotent and if Katherine was to have a baby his ego would allow him to believe it was his
I found this really fascinating. As a woman Jane Boleyn probably got more of the blame than she deserves. I think that Henry wanted to get rid of Anne and he expects people to enable this to happen. Jane was just another pawn in his tyrannical reign
Jane Rochford helped Henry get rid of Anne, a woman who supposedly committed adultery. Because she did not immediately report her doubts about Amme's supposed indiscretions, she was not exactly been a commendable guardian of a Queen's virtue. Making Jane one of Katherine Howard's ladies-in-waiting, he was rewarding Jane for her help in incriminating Anne. If Jane Rochford had connived with the Boleyn's in the beginning, why did he trust Jane's suitability to set a good example for Katherine Howard? If she had not been able to, from Henry's viewpoint, keep Anne from betraying her marriage vows, why did Henry think she could prevent chaperone the extremely young and vulnerable Catherine Howard?
How wonderful that you had the opportunity to portray Lady Rochford! One summer recently, while I was portraying a shopkeeper at our local Renaissance faire (I'm told this is mainly an American thing, not terribly historically accurate but an absolute blast nonetheless), I ran into a patron who did a pretty good portrayal of Anne Boleyn, right down to the B necklace. I sat down next to her and we talked a bit, and as I was making my farewells I said, "Mind your neck, madam, remember that t'is only a little one."
Thank you for bringing historical figures off the dusty page and presenting them as the complicated, multi-faceted, flesh and blood people they were! 🙌🙌
You can imagine her being under pressure being questioned about the men potentially going in and out of Anne’s chambers and her saying ‘no no, just her brother who is a loving support to her’ Something as innocuous as that, which was leapt on and twisted into the incest accusation
That is a very insightful interpretation of a very possible scenario. She could have made what she thought was an innocent comment which was then twisted to mean something else.
I still stand by my former statement, yet having reexamined Jane and the circumstances, and watching this video and others, there is something else which struck me. Could Jane have fallen so easily into a plan for KH to become pregnant by TC not only to insure her own place, but for a deep seated resentment, even hatred of King Henry and REVENGE for her husbands death... maybe she saw a child not from King Henrys loins as a way to get back at him for the lies and murder of her husband and Anne, and having to accept less than what she saw as her due... How many people were honestly unafraid of King Henrys moods, whims and demands? And if Katherine Howard had become pregnant with a son everyone would have benefitted...
Yes, I believe this could be true. It’s something I’d consider in the same circumstances. But Henry’s line ended anyway. Elizabeth I knew what she was doing, and avenged her mother in the only way she could.... remain unmarried and childless. Then she handed the throne to the Scots. Priceless.🤣
I think one thing that is definitely known is that Tudor Court was a dangerous place. I think a woman such a Jane could have been easily manipulated and coerced by powerful men to undertake things not necessarily in her best interests. Everyone knew the fate of the Queen’s who did not produce a male heir; perhaps it’s possible that Jane was trying to save Catherine’s life by any means to produce that “heir.” I think the true story is probably very complex when considering all the players in a game of survival. Love this channel and all the videos-it makes my week when a new one is uploaded. I too tell everyone I know to check you out! Bravo on 30,000 subscribers!
The cuckoo heir theory is a good one, but it depends on Henry and Catherine actually sleeping together. It seems (imo) quite likely that by the time of their marriage the 'impotence' hinted at in the Boleyn trial may have become ingrained. Remember he claimed he could not consummate his marriage with Ann of Cleves because he 'liked her not' and she 'smelled' (Pretty rich coming from an obese bloke with a stinky ulcer) What if the real reason was because he could not get it up? In which case it is a very dangerous game to be playing. We know Henry called her his 'Rose without a Thorn' but I don't think even he was so blinded by infatuation as to believe she was capable of an Immaculate Conception!
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 I do have to assume that they at least slept together a few times. I doubt they had a wild sex life, but Howard wasn't AS silly as she's often portrayed. I'm not saying she was Anne Boleyn or Catherine of Aragon smart, but I do believe she does deserve some credit. Seeing as though, besides Parr, Howard was the only one with KNOWN sexual experience before marrying, I think it's safe to say she was at least smart enough to know what would happen to her if she got pregnant without having sex with Henry in a reasonable amount of time. Plus, if you factor how Henry and Catherine's relationship went before it really went downhill, it does kind of fit with something behind the scenes. He would get into moods where he didn't want anything to do with her AND was thinking of divorcing her. If it was just the former, it could easily be applied to his health, but also divorcing too? From what we know of Henry, especially post Jane, this does kind of fit with him not being able to preform and blaming the woman. Of course it's not actual evidence because a lot can happen over months. Just knowing what we know about Henry, there are really good odds that whatever she did to upset him during those times was really all him. With no actual evidence of Jane being the woman she's often portrayed as, there are few reasons that make any sense for her to get involved with Howard and Culpepper.
@@ReadingthePast That's the theory put forth in Philippa Gregory's The Boleyn Inheritance (very good) and the YA novel The King's Rose (good, but not great).
I agree with you. Henry’s court had to have been a very complex and treacherous place to be, abounding with all kinds of unwritten rules that may not have come down to us in full detail through historical accounts. Those social norms encouraged deceitful behavior that functioned as a survival mechanism. The nobles included in the highest Royal circles moved in a sequestered, hyper-vigilant atmosphere. Most of them didn’t have wide experience with other classes. Women, in particular, were valued as breeding stock, one step above chattel. It may be that Lady Rochford made the most of the tools she had to work with. She survived longer than many. She almost outlived Henry. Lady Rochford lasted through quite a number of twists and turns. This indicates that she was either more duplicitous than her peers or just luckier. Henry was a raging narcissist to begin with and, as he got older, sicker, and more desperate to bend the world to his will, he must’ve been like living with a volcano that could irrupt it anytime. Not a life I would have liked to have had.
Well you've done it again - made me wonder if what I thought I knew about Lady Rochford was quite accurate. I had got my notion of her from Hilary Mantel, who based her fictionalized accounts upon and from close research. So I had a picture of a bitter and clever woman who hated her womanizing husband to whom she had been contracted with no say of her own, for all that it was commonplace at the time. But your analysis and research gives a different notion. Now I have to go away and think. I know you like to make people think. Thank you again - I so enjoy your presentations.
Your voice was very quiet for me for some reason, so when I got to the music part of the introduction, I jumped out of my seat because I had turned it way up :) I'm awake! I'm awake! Thanks for this video. Very interesting!
I use a HP Mini when listening w my phone and with my tablet I use a slightly larger external loudspeaker (bluetooth) that makes almost all vids much easier to hear
I'm a retired nurse from the USA with an interest in medicine and English history. I love your presentations. Please do one on diseases of medieval times...what was sweating sickness?
Wow, are you the storyteller! You had me spellbound from beginning to end. What a horrible end for Katherine and Jane. I can't imagine witnessing my friend being dispatched in such a manner knowing I'm next; and yet bravely giving testimony to her faith in God. She was very foolish to involve herself in such clandestine subterfuge. Here experience with Anne and her husband George should have been enough. Thank you for sharing this bit of history. What a bloody era. All of England must have breathed a sign of relief when Henry died.
I would be most interested to hear you talk about Catherine Howard, herself. She seems to me have had a very sad, neglected childhood that led her to look for love in all the wrong places, until she was forced to become a pawn in a lethal game that she had little control over. I think she might actually be the most tragic of Henry’s wives...but what do you think? 😉
To me "looking for love" even is a stretch. She strikes me as a child that was groomed by adult men to satisfy their sexual desires and then forced into marriage with the King, for which she was entirely unprepared and unsuited, by ruthless family members and a monarch who would not be denied something he wanted.
@@superhetoric You are judging people from 500 years ago by the values of today-they simply would not have thought about life in the same way we did. She was delighted to become Queen because of the lavish lifestyle she would have enjoyed. Her immaturity did not let her realise she was playing with fire.
@@ryanborder189Several assumptions here so you are judging as well, someone you did not know. None of us have any idea, we can guess but it is only a guess.
I've got my volume up (and keyboard up) to 100% so the sound is fairly OK. The music is very loud, but then Dr Kat's volume goes down again after that to fairly OK. After watching two Dr Kat videos I've subscribed. I hardly ever do that. This woman is a historical gem!
Thank you Dr. Kat for bringing to light so many details that are not usually heard. Your ability to bring out the layers in historical figures is absolutely fascinating. After learning of her writing a letter of support to George as he was in the tower, I have a more favorable opinion of Lady Jane Rochford than I previously did. That fact alone seems to point in a different direction than her being the one to cast blame for incest. And as you also pointed out, it seems unlikely that she would purposely jeopardize her own position by having her husband accused of treason. I hadn't thought about that before. I was very interested to see this new video, with a chance to learn more about her, and hear your interpretation of events. Loved it!
I’ve just found your page today, I have stood in the kitchen doing my Christmas baking and just listened to you talking. 4 hours later I am hooked, thank you so much and Best wishes for Christmas and New Year x
I love that you explore a different version of Jane. I always had trouble believing that she was so nasty/evil/one dimensional. I'm sure she did what everyone did at Henry's court; try to stay on the king's good side. If Henry knew that the "evidence" against Anne was fictitious, he may well have opted to "forgive" those who had gone along with his narrative. He certainly continued to support the Duke of Norfolk, and he did not impoverish Thomas Boleyne. I'm sure that Henry just wanted to put it all behind him.
I truly think figuring out what was happening in the hearts of those involved here is terribly difficult. The two really strange things that stand out are (1) Her survival when the rest of the Boleyn faction fell, and (2) Her taking part in treasonous activity on behalf of Catherine Howards. As far as #1 goes, one can understand the likely source of her survival, even full return to court--namely, that she provided something of value, proving her loyalty was to the King. Given the alternative, I can well believe she broke and told a lie. This of course does not make her a villain but rather someone terrified. This makes #2 a likely case of some complex emotional motivations, as well as perhaps attempting to simply back the wrong horse. Either way, there is precious little clarity about her heart, her mind, her emotional state. We are left to imagine what scenario makes the most sense to us as individuals.
Love your channel, you've quickly become one of my most watched for very good reason - subject matter, presentation, many reasons! Is anybody else having trouble with the sound on this particular video, or just me? The intro music came in loud and clear, but I had to crank the volume way up for the speaking part. I don't want to miss a single word of Dr. Kat's always-fascinating talks!
I so love these uploads Dr. Kat. I appreciate that you don't go for the obvious characters from our history. I value your empathy towards them and how you show us that people in the past were three dimensional, just as we are today, despite their rank, marriages, intrigues, trappings of wealth and privilege. You bring them back to us absolutely, along with their hopes, dreams, jealousies, loves, fears etc. I've always thought it strange that Jane stayed on at court and didn't lose her properties, title or character which would be highly unusual for the wife of an executed traitor. Tbh I've always thought of her as a "bit" player in the wrong place at the wrong time or an innocent bystander, until now. I begin to understand that she was far more. She must have been highly intelligent, astute, stronger and more "canny" than she's given credit for. Whatever her motives and actions she must have had to walk an extremely fine line given the machinations, not least from some frighteningly powerful characters such as Thomas Cromwell, and the hotbed of dangerous gossip within the Royal court surrounding her. The flashbacks to her family's downfall and the horror of the fate she knew would inevitably await her would I'm sure bring on some type of nervous breakdown. To me she's all the more impressive as she was a then unmarried woman alone, from a "fallen" family. Of course I'm sure that she was grateful at times for her uncle!! I now see her in a decidedly different light and am curious about her motives. Btw you looked amazing in the photograph as Jane. I hope that you and Jaime are both safe and well. PS. Thanks again for your previous book recommendations, I've devoured each one with relish ❤
The ad is still playing. I’m so excited to see where you will take us with this one! I tell EVERYONE about you lol. Thanks for this. Thank to Jamie too. Feel like your family
Thank you for your thorough and thought provoking presentation on Lady Rochford. It seems to me regarding her involvement with Queen Catherine's trysts with Culpepper that she was unable to control her natural tendencies toward mischief. She obviously enjoyed being the go-between the two and maybe even encouraged it thinking she might never be caught.
I'm shivering! I definitely thought of Jane Boleyn as a nasty piece of work, due, as you say, to her portrayal in historical fiction, but you have given me interesting food for thought.
I’ve recently discovered your videos and they are fantastic! I’m an Anglophile and have watches everything about British Royalty since the 1970’s PBS version of Henry VIII. Jane Bolin, the lady Rochford has always been portrayed as an evil person. Listening to your video though it gives me pause. She may not have been completely evil, she may not have been completely good. But a woman of her time trying to navigate a political situation that had volatile elements that were not completely under her control. So she did not have the complete picture, what was exactly going on in Henry’s mind,and was working from an incomplete picture. She was not as clever as she thought. But then, that’s how a lot of people ended up on the block.
Wow! Congrats on passing 31k subscribers! I enjoy your presentations so much. Every time I think- Oh, she forgot about that detail- you come through with the goods!
Thank you for the informative and balanced video. Jane Boleyn( Berlin in the closed captioning) is a difficult case. I would almost always give the woman the benefit of the doubt, but since this happened twice, it looks pretty bad. The third Duke of Norfolk was probably using her, but it still makes little sense. I read somewhere years ago that the 4th Duke of Norfolk went quite mad in 1572 after repeated warrants for his execution were withdrawn by the Queen, only to be executed on the fourth warrant.
Your videos are always so interesting and enlightening, even on topics I'm relatively well versed on. I don't read or watch nonfiction as part of my Sabbath observances, and I've begun really looking forward to delving into your videos on those days. Your empathy towards this divisive historical person is really honorable, and I think it bears keeping in mind; we hear only the echoes of history and it's important to keep that in mind when judging figures harshly. Keep up the wonderful work; we're so here for it!
This is my favorite video yet. I love knowing more intimate details about historical figures lives. We can imagine the dread Lady Rochford must have felt. The mental breakdown that assuredly she must have been experienced. I just can't imagine why Lady Rochford would be so brazen as to assist the young queen in an affair. I think you are right, in that there was family pressure to do so. Sadly, it cost her everything. I loved this video Dr. Kat. I have come away with deep thoughts and empathy for not just Lady Rochford, but for most women that have lived Richard's Tudor Court. So much drama, so much pressure to fulfill a prince for the king, when he obviously had medical problems that affected his ability to... well, you know. Sadly, he when he finally was born a prince, he lost another Queen. This Queen he seemed to have genuinely loved, or at least to have had affection for. His court had it all; Schemings, Trauma, Lies and deceit, Tragedy, Death and Birth. The most amazing thing to come out of this Patriarchal court was the birth of 2 strong women that would go on to rule a matriarchal court. One for a short time and was given a rather unfair bloody moniker. The other, to rule for her adult life, as she ushered in the new Elizabethan Britain.
I had an entirely different opinion going into this video. You’ve given such great detail that I’ve come to see her in a new light. I just found your channel and I’m in love! This is my favorite period of history and I can’t thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. ❤️
I loved that your lecture was on Jane Parker, Lady Rochford. You explained away my confusion immediately why she had both titles. I had heard her only called as "Lady Rochford" and then the more I surfed the Internet and watched other videos she was called "Jane Parker". I also really like villains and she certainly has been portrayed in my lifetime as the villainess against Anne & George and her jealousy toward their "too close relationship". I did not know until surfing here and there that she was brought back to court by Jane Seymour & I never could understand why on earth she would help out Catherine Howard. You explained each of those topics so well. By no means have I watched each of your videos, but I have enjoyed this one on my favorite "villainess" or not so much "villainess" Lady Rochford the most. I look forward to your upcoming videos.
FASCINATING. I love, love, love your thoughtful analyses (I've watched three so far and intend to watch all.) Here are some thoughts. Jane was first and foremost a creature of the court. From a very early age, she'd learned to navigate that rabbit's warren of intrigue and treachery. To be deprived of her milieu, which is what happened after she failed in her commission by Queen Anne to remove Madge Shelton from court, must have stung. It would have been human nature for her to ask her husband and sister-in-law to use their influence to effect her reinstatement. I suspect her opinion was they didn't try hard enough, ergo her decision to agitate on behalf of the Lady Mary (in defiance of all of Queen Anne's interests). I think she was enraged. However much we may empathize with Anne Boleyn (well, I do, at least), our partiality cannot blind us to the fact that Anne was only sporadically capable of kindness. She was high-strung, temperamental--not an easy woman to work for. I'm not sure she and Jane were anything more than friends of convenience. And if Jane did at one point love her husband, a charming if somewhat feckless young man, wouldn't she have been somewhat resentful at his natural simpatico with his sister? Yet Jane was still made of human parts. In Cromwell's terrifying hands she may have been biddable, but her conscience must have smote her. For me, the waters get a lot more opaque once we reach the Kathryn Howard days. Like you, I wonder if Kathryn and Jane conspired to have Kathryn conceive an heir by any means possible. What closure or satisfaction did Jane receive by facilitating these dangerous rendezvous between Kathryn and Culpeper? And what did the king hope to gain by showering Jane with the best medical care during her convalescence? Great stuff. Consider me a huge fan of your vlog. I'll be watching many more in the future.
Great video 👍. I know that I have harbored an unfair bias against Jane, due mostly to the way she is portrayed in historical fiction and how historians have treated her in the past. I never really thought about how truly terrifying those experiences must have been for her or how much trauma she probably carried with her. Awesome work!
I totally agree, I think Norfolk will have played a hand for sure. As for motive, who knows? Maybe Lady Jane witnessed how disposable KoA and AB were on not producing an heir and she acted (under instruction/threat?) to try and help her mistress and relation Katherine as Henry couldn't do the deed. These were dangerous times for everyone and women, especially, didn't have much or any control over their lives.
I think you are spot on! I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You always bring a fresh look at your subjects. You are incredibly insightful! Thanks so very much for all the work and time you put into these efforts!😄❤
Dr. Kat acknowledged her potential bias at the beginning of the video and by doing so invited us to examine our own biases. Just as it is nearly impossible for westerners to understand the almost sacred responsibility of host for guest in Middle Eastern cultures, it is very difficult for the 21st century woman to imagine the pressure felt by a lady in the Tudor court. Now, I don't think I could walk to work past my husband's head on a pike unless I really hated him. (Figure of speech... no commutes past spikes were necessary.) But what options did Jane have? It's not as though she could freshen up her resume and start networking. "Experienced lady-in-waiting seeks new position with potential for growth. Will work for food and silk fabric. Available immediately."
Jane Boleyn and her possible motivations have fascinated me for years. I’ve never believed she made that statement about George and Anne because that would be a really stupid move and especially after a decade in that family and having been at court for so long she would certainly know better. Destroying the Boleyn’s would ultimately lead to her own downfall. As for her motivation for helping Katherine Howard I teeter back and forth between revenge and some type of mental break. The king had literally destroyed her whole family yet, she was forced to remain at court in service to subsequent queens. I could certainly see her finally drifting away from reality as Henry grew steadily more brutal and horrifying. It was probably a combination of both.
I could see her growing close to Katherine because she didn't seem to have any close ties or recorded friendships. That didn't mean there WEREN'T any, but I just read her biography and though people helped her, it seems to be tit for tat and she seems very isolated figure. She had no children or romantic interests, so perhaps she developed a maternal/aunt bond with a girl who was very important and also attached to her. That doesn't mean she should be helping her endanger herself, but deep attachment when we have no one else can be very powerful.
I think she should have learned from her first go round with His Magesty, to Not play him! I don't know if I wouldn't have run away at first mention of my involvement in treasonous infidelity; with my fingers in my ears, yelling na na na na I can't hear you!
I love the fact that you always give a balanced view of historical figures who have, in many cases, been reviled for centuries. I'm wondering how ladies were chosen to be part of the court, and especially to be ladies in waiting. Were they put forward by male relatives? Would they have been allowed to decline? I would also like to request that you do a program on Katherine de Roet Swynford, who married John of Gaunt. The various family connections to Geoffrey Chaucer and the Beaufort lineage are so interesting.
Great question, for the most part places at court (for men and women) were a recognition of the prominence of the family coupled with the favour of the monarch. If they did not shine in that place as a credit to their family, it is highly possible they would be allowed to become insignificant by that family, particularly if they had another "better" candidate primed to take the place. Katherine and John of Gaunt are on my list for the future.
Dr. Kat, your videos are A GODSEND!! Your research is clearly impeccable. I can't thank you enough for the work that you have put in to making these video essays. I especially respond to your tone and delivery and I love your accent, you're a delight to hear! You present your information in such a way that I can completely understand your point of view and yet can still find myself drawing my own conclusions and formulating my own thoughts when all is said and done. As far as Jane Boleyn goes, I have always found her such a fascinating character study but it's difficult to fully wrap your head around her story because of the slander that she has endured, especially since her unfortunate portrayal on The Tudors. I am also of the belief that she was close to and highly regarded by the Boleyn family, including her husband. Until I heard your perspective though, I wasn't really sure why she would do something so seemly stupid as acting as a go-between to assist Katherine Howard in her illicit affair with Culpeper. Now, I do think there is something to what you say about Norfolk possibly persuading her to oversee and keep the rendezvous secret by promising her rewards and protection of some sort. It's certainly the kind of thing Norfolk would do! Thank you again for your incredible channel and for all that you do. It is very much appreciated!
A bit late to the party but I've only just discovered your channel. I love the way that you explain history - it's interesting and compelling without being sensationalised. Thank you :)
I just recently discovered your you tube channel...and I love it. The way how you present history almost like you are telling a story, a secret... questioning...inviting us to dive into the past ...your great and deep knowledge about the Tudors and aristocrats, relationships, events, politics, plots, cloths...everything around the court.....is fascinating.
Lady Rochford is my favorite historical personality of the Tudor era, she saw a lot, she was there, 5 queens she attended, there should be more novels with her as the protagonist of the book 😉 thank you for the video and all your others, they're so awesome thank you 🥇😉
I think that she was really just a nasty piece of work who got well over her head but always got lucky and found a way out to save herself, and because she was a manipulative, stirring trouble sort of person it made her easy prey to also be manipulated by much more intelligent and powerful people. We sometimes in life come across people not dissimilar to this type of person and they always get their comeuppance in the end. I think she was a "fake friend" type and probably has a well deserved reputation as a villainess.
Hey there Dr Kat! This was fantastic video, thank you for making it. I’m one of those people who thought Jane Boleyn was a villain, for sure. She’s portrayed as this scheming, gossipy woman who hated her husband and was hatching plots all over the place. But as always, the real story is a lot more nuanced. Thank you for bringing that out in this video.
i like your version of jane boleyn better than what I have seen in film or history docs. interesting how the uncle Duke seemed to scheme and plan with the boleyns and come away as clean and sweet smelling as a daisy. hmmmmm. wonder how the rest of his life went? a possible video i hope----how did the duke and daddy boleyn make out after all the killing of their kin?
Thomas Howard , 3rd Duke of Norfolk was arrested along with his eldest son, Henry Howard, earl of Surrey right at the end of Henry's reign and were charged with treason.his son was executed but King Henry died before Norfolk's death warrant could be signed. He was in the Tower throughout the reign of Edward VI, and was then released and pardoned by Queen Mary and would die in his bed aged over 80 years old.
This was fascinating! I've wondered about Jane Boleyn ever since that BBC mini series about Henry VIII in the 70s, with Keith Michell. Both that series and Phillippa Gregory's novels implied that, although she was not a very nice woman, she did not deliberately betray George and Anne Boleyn. She was given a confession written by someone else (the cardinal?) and told to sign this or die.
Love your videos. Just found them. I’d love to hear more about the Woodville’s. The foundation of the Woodville clan, their rise and fall. What did Elizabeth Woodville really think about her Uncle Richard, the princes in the Tower and then having to marry the usurper Henry Tudor. And did she believe in the validity of the “Imposter Edward “.
Brilliant. I agree entirely. But, perhaps it has already been perfectly summed up as this.. "One Must walk in a man's shoes Before He has the right or privilege to make a remark upon His plight."
To be honest, my opinion of Jane Boleyn was greatly influenced by the way she was portait in the Tudors show... And also by the interpretation of her apology for "many sins". And later I found out that there is no temporary account of her actually admitting her guilt. It's so very hard to decipher her nowadays - it is so very suspicious that she stayed so long at court, after going through such a dramatic event. As you pointed out she was considered a wife of a traitor, and yet she reappeared so quickly as a lady of queen Jane. The question is wheather it was her choice to come back - was she manipulated or rather she was the manipulator. I guess it is one of the questions that shall never be truly answered. Great video! As always! :D
Since she was now a widow, she would have had to find a means of support, assuming that her husband's assets were taken by the crown. Position with the new queen would have helped her financially and also in the respectability department.
Almost every execution speech of the time mentions they are a great sinner. They also say positive things about the king, but that doesn't mean they liked him or wanted good things for him. It was believed at that time that every person deserved to die because of original sin and they were only saved through Christ's mercy. By sticking to the traditional execution speech format they affirmed their faith in God, preserved some dignity, and kept their families safe.
@@diannelavoie5385 She managed to gain a suitable estate and a sizable widow's portion (Thomas Boleyn had tried to deny her half of her inheritance, but Cromwell intervened helped her.) She could have comfortably retired in the country. There is a possibility that Cromwell wanted her services in recompense as his eyes and ears in Anne of Cleve's chambers (many courtiers held similar roles so it wasn't as sleazy as it sounds). But after Cromwell was gone, she certainly could have left. But she had no children, and I would imagine life in the country would be very boring without a family. She could have remarried, but any woman marrying was taking a risk as her husband would be in charge. She probably enjoyed the social life and influence she enjoyed at court, and having as close to a 'career' as a woman of her position could have.
it always worries me when we read of the downfall of historic people, especially in the Tudor times. There was so much propaganda and he said, she said it makes it difficult to know what to believe. personally i'm with you on this Dr Kat, in a time when women were pawns in mens games i dont think Jane would have had any choice in her actions and would have done what she was told to survive.
Congratulations on 30,000 subscribers! So enjoy your videos - they’ve been great to binge! I suppose I have had a negative view of Jane Boleyn for how she’s been portrayed. I so love how you present things. Thank you for this video.
I suggest the potential because it is a way for me to make sense of Jane's involvement. If the correct correlation of circumstances occurred then, theoretically it could have worked - would those involve have felt the gamble to be worth it?
Reading the Past It’s always made the most sense to me. Looked at another way, once Catherine discovered Henry was totally or largely impotent, what were her options? Can you imagine her dawning horror on learning this? On realising its implications for her? Would any sane woman have just remained childless and accepted her fate? Does anyone believe that Henry would have tolerated childlessness in his nubile teenaged new Queen? It’s always seemed to me that Catherine was in a parlous position either way and anyone with ambition and political instincts (whether young Catherine herself, or her ambitious family) would have sought an urgent solution.
It's one of the plots of Philippa Gregory's novel _The Boleyn Inheritance_ (covers Jane Rochford's time serving Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard). In this novel Jane is assigned to do whatever it would take to at least make Henry think that any child Katherine bore was his. When it turned out that Thomas Culpepper was infatuated enough with Katherine to risk an illicit relationship with the young Queen, Jane manipulated both of them in hopes that a baby would be the result. Of course it's only a historical novel and Gregory is known to take liberties for the sake of a story, so who knows.
An excellent presentation as always. I could listen to you all day. To chat about this period over a pot of tea, and a nice sponge, would be a dream come true. I must admit you’ve softened my opinion of Jane Boleyn: I’d always thought of her as the sister-in-law from hell, who finally got her just desserts.
I absolutely love your videos your voice is amazing it's calming and I have severe mental disabilities I could listen to you all day long but the music you put with your videos makes it almost impossible baby
It’s natural you would have a bias as any good actor finds ways to justify their character’s actions and motives. That Thomas Howard was pulling the strings makes perfect sense. However, Jane seems to have always wanted to be where the celebrity and power was. She seems envious of the center roles others had, trying to insert herself as much as possible. It excited her to be in with the in-crowd. I think she was silly and lacked good judgement. Not evil, just easily corrupted.
Hello, Dr. Kat. I can't say enough about your wonderful channel. My spouse and I have just begun watching it here in North Carolina. Never stop! Like many viewers of your channel, I'm very interested in the Tudor period. However, the earliest Tudor period -- pertaining to the Tudor bloodline entering the royal bloodline -- fascinates me, i.e., the widowed Queen Katherine of Valois and her "secret" marriage to Owen Tudor, her master of the wardrobe. Their marriage was an "open secret" at court ... while she was pregnant? And had five children? The eventual Henry, Duke of Richmond, taking the throne in 1483. I'm familiar with this general story line, but you have a way of digging out details of it all. I hope you'll eventually take on this subject. Other subjects I'd like to see you cover: - The two Princes in the Tower - The Argyll Colony of 1739 to North Carolina (yeah, that would be a stretch) - Bonnie Prince Charlie and Flora McDonald
Ooh I’ve been meaning to watch your Tudor videos (which is not my favorite era but I am endeavoring to think what might have changed if Catherine took the throne in the divorce “agreement”) but I would also love to see you make a video about the “Imperial Woman” since we know so little about her.
I knew she wrote a letter to George when he was in the Tower of London. I read the Downfall of Anne Boleyn and the George Boleyn history novels from Claire Ridgeway. Before I read them I thought she was spiteful and vindictive. I couldn’t be more wrong. As for her remaining in court, I believe she had no choice. Your video and your interpretation of Lady Rochford was amazing. I love your videos.
@@frightbat208 I agree, My pleasure is to watch both Dr Kat and Claire Ridgeway videos because they always give documents from primary sources. It gives new light to events we heard of, read about or watched in series or movies. I love historical fiction like Philippa Gregory's but I always check after what is real from what she made up as a novelist.
Elvira de Bord I agree. I look forward to see their videos. I also like Philippa Gregory’s novels. I’m looking forward for season 2 of the Spanish Princess.
I can’t wrap my head around how someone, especially like Jane, could stay at court after witnessing the irrational wrath of Henry VIII. Talk about a loose end.
Women of that day, as far as I've read, did not have much in the way of choice. One was told they were to serve in a specific position for specific people, as the males negotiated. It is possible Lady Rochford was not as politcally savvy as Dr Kat presents, thus being easily ensnared in the wranglings of power plays. It was a volatile court full of superstitions requiring , and as a testament in Elizabeth 1, intelligence to be a successful participant.
Alysen Cameron that is so true, it is appalling how little say women had in their own affairs in those days. It may well have been the case for Jane. However, like Dr Kat mentioned, it is unusual that Henry VIII would have allowed her to stay at court after the downfall of the family she was married into. Unless she helped him by testifying, or maybe Jane Seymour asked for her specifically? Then again, Howard stayed at the court after both Anne and Catherine, so who knows. Such a mystery, le sigh.
I just don’t understand why she would stay there if she had a choice, but you’re probably right Alysen, she more than likely didn’t have a choice either way. Sorry my last comment went rambling lol.
The court was where the gravy was doled out. Everyone wanted to be there in a position they could use for their own ends and to advance the family firm.
Love your videos. And I believe Jane did the best that she could to survive. I don't believe she told them that Ann and Thomas were sleeping together. As far as Katherine and Culpeper are concerned, I honestly don't know. Perhaps as others have mentioned it was to get an heir...? But that leads to my next question, can you please do a video on Katherine?? I always feel so sorry for the poor mite 💔. So young with it seems no guidance. I know there is not much on her, but even your thoughts as woman would be appreciated. And I just finished the The Five, loved that. Those poor women deserved better.
Dr. Kat, this was both fascinating and thought-provoking. To be perfectly honest, I’ve never before thought much of Jane Boleyn. Now I will think about her a good bit. Thank you for enriching my thoughts.
In playing Jane Boleyn you chose a difficult subject. It is much easier to play Anne as all you have to do is amble in! 😀 Loved the video and learned a lot. Thank you Dr. Kat 🌷
I think you are correct and your reasoning, well researched and presented- as usual!. I have always though that she and her husband had a hard relationship but were, if not happy with one another, at least resigned to being together. I feel she was smart and had a sharp tongue so men of the time disliked her and her forward attitude. I think she got a raw deal throughout her life and met her end with dignity. Thanks again for these awesome videos they have made my pandemic confinement bearable
Very interesting, gave me a better understanding of Jane Boleyn - the woman caught up in an awkward and perilous court and trying to survive! Thankyou Dr Kat.
I have to confess that I've been under the influence of literature and movies, thinking for a very long time, that Jane was jealous wife, who participated in the murder of her husband and sister in law. It was Claire Ridgway who first changed my mind. I'm always happy to find balanced report on the basis of the evidence. I think that Jane had a good relationship with her husband and sister in law. I think it is possible, that she saw a daughter in Catherine Howard, trying to help her, but failed and then she had enough - all of her people gone, she went and died almost gladly. It is not fair she is portrayed as a villain. Thank you for this video. Maybe, if someday you are in search for the theme of the video - I've always been intrigued by Stanley family , but not know much about them. But I think the influenced the history much more than people are aware.
petunijadu same. It wasn’t until after watching Claire’s videos that I realised I was a victim of Philippa Gregory fiction. I love her books but I can’t read them ever again. ☺️ I’m glad I read them first though.
I truly enjoy your posts. There is nothing like learning something new every day. As a side note, I have an almost identical wood bowl with the animals on the rim that I got in Tanzania a few years back.
For a long time I thought Jane Boleyn was the lynch pin that brought George and Anne down. Yet the more evidence that comes out and the more we learn as the years go by, I have to feel at least in the case of Anne and George Jane was innocent.
I think that was Cromwell. If Jane hadn't said anything they would have found someone else who would. I think she said something, given she was saved, but not necessarily out of spite
This has probably been discussed and discarded for other information I do not know. But maybe she just hated Henry? Like he murdered her husband, her friend and sister. Maybe she was just like “screw him”. She watched Anne Boleyn be miserable and lose her youth and life to this king. Maybe she wanted to help Catherine, and Anne of Cleves because she simple felt bad for these women having been forced into marriages to a violent obese dictator figure who has been responsible for so much suffering in her country and in her home? Idk maybe that’s stupid but it’s the first thing that came to mind.
Well done You, Dr. Kat once again! So very well researched, thought through and even thought given to these historical characters emotions, influences and outcomes. I enjoy each of your videos immensely and watch them repeatedly!
I don't know that I had a negative view of her. I did not see her as evil, but I did wonder why people of court gave her their confidences. Your explanation seems to make that make sense.
Having played Sister Mary Ignatius, I well understand the impulse to put a finger on the scale, which must be even stronger with real people. Facts are always useful. I've generally considered Lady R to have been not up to villain standard, but to have had a bit of a nasty streak - very useful for those times. The most admirable character of the period may be the Duchess of Milan, who was in the running to be Wife #4.
I'm glad she wasn't she was far too good for Henry as was Catherine Parr. I like Catherine Parr a lot and Catherine of Aragon and I admire Anne Boleyn's intelligence but in the end Elizabeth won for her - her intelligence and cunning proving her to be her mother's daughter as well being free to not have a man have demonion over her - Dr Kat is right describing her as a chess player. I feel sorry for Katherine H - a young woman who was groomed by her music teacher at 14 at then used by men her whole life. I agree the Duke of Norfolk was a bastard never liked him. I dunno about Jane - I think George may well have been homo or bi sexual - he confessed to some sort of deviancy which wasn't invest and non hetronormative attractive would certainly have been seen as that by society and possibly him and Mark Smeaten had some very nice clothes he probably couldn't afford maybe it wasn't Anne who gave them to him but George but that doesn't mean she hated him there are couples in marriages of conveniences that overlook things their husbands do and sometimes agreements are made. I think Jane was a pragmatic intruiger but I think she may have had some sympathy for Katherine H and possibly Anne of Cleeves. I think though that if Cramner a man who was raised by the Boleyns and who obviously had a lot of respect for them could sell them out to save his own skin as could the family patriarch maybe we shouldn't judge Jane too harshly.
Hello, I found your channel yesterday and I really enjoy your videos! You seem to be a really nice and natural person - something that is becoming really rare on the internet. It's a pleasure to listen to you. The content is great as well. Love from one of the oldest countries in Europe - Bulgaria :)
I have never been able to explain the extreme risk Jane took in aiding and abetting Katherine Howard’s extramarital adventures. Most Tudor women would have distanced themselves early on from such treasonous behavior. Your suggestion that it was someone else’s idea makes more sense.
I honestly didn't know much about Jane and now I must know more. Please recommend some good reading materials! Thank you as always for thought provoking content!!!
Interesting and complex perspective. I am troubled by her survival through many royal dramas. Was she owed favours but eventually over stepped her value. We will never know.
Dr. Kay, thank you. These videos are wonderful and I love them. Even with technical issues. You are providing a greatly appreciated respite from today’s social frontier and I want you to know I do subscribe because I want to keep watching.
Hello there, I'm seeing a lot of comments about audio issues; I'm not 100% sure why this is happening. I can hear the audio myself. To be safe I have taken advice and bought a new mic - we're going lav mic rather than the one I was using which attached to my DSLR. Hopefully, this will sort things before the next video. Thank you for being so kind and supportive in bringing this to my attention - thank you also, in advance, for your understanding and patience as I sort this issue out 🌟
(I experienced no audio issues) re Jane Boleyn: yes, I have always thought of her as a scheming sociopath because of her depiction in The Tudors and in Tudor novels by Philippa Gregory, however, I was uncomfortable with the notion that she was pure evil yet, at the same time, so foolish. Thank you for a clearer, less skewed portrayal of this complex, scarcely understood, historical figure.
Audio was just fine for me.
Lady Rochford by all appearances is a schemer, she loves the intrigues of court life and will do anything to be at the center of the action, a confident to multiple Queens, sounds more like a manipulator and amoral woman. Some people are happiest when manipulating others lives and being "in on the secret" with little regard to the implications nor the consequences.
@@leanie9660 LOVE the Philippa Gregory novels. Ms. Jane does NOT come off well in those tho
Ya i had no audio issues
I wonder if she hedged her bets that Katherine would outlive Henry, and therefore helped Katherine get what she wanted. Katherine was so young, and Henry so ill, that maybe Jane thought Henry would be dead soon enough that they wouldn't get caught. The idea of using Culpepper to create a child that could be passed off as a new Tudor prince or princess is also intriguing. It might make sense that Jane, who knew Henry's history of struggling to produce healthy children, was worried about Katherine's ability to produce an heir. When we're thinking about political choices at Tudor court, I think the first question to ask is how would that action benefit the actor or their interests? I wonder if Jane, who seems to have previously made some bold political moves, thought that Katherine was her chance at stability and wealth. Jane was wealthy, but due to an allowance from her father in law. When your income is dependent on others, life can be very unpredictable, and I could understand Jane wanting to secure something more stable for herself. Maybe she just lost contact with reality after her husband was executed and she survived. Maybe she thought her political abilities were better than they were or maybe not getting caught gave her overconfidence, but I struggle to see her actions as anything other than intentional and calculated. Over the course of history so many people have supported the wrong faction and paid for it. I think this is just another case of picking the 'wrong' person or people to support.
Was Jane not a cousin of the King. I think I read that somewhere, that Jane's Father was the King's cousin.
I completely agree with you. I think Jane saw an opportunity for the future and bet on the wrong horse. I can clearly see her saying in Katherine Howard's ear that she needed to have a baby by any means necessary. And Henry was so sick, probably impotent, and disgusting to have sex with, pushing her toward Culpepper ( who, if the portrait I saw us accurate, kind of resembles Henry) would make perfect sense.
@@angelasmith5174 that would make her his cousin once removed. But from my understanding her grandmother Alice St. John was the first cousin of Henry VII. Alice was the daughter of Sir John St John The older half brother of Margaret Beaufort from her mom's first marriage to Sir Oliver St. John. Her father Sir Henry Parker was Alice's son Thus she and Henry VIII should be second cousins once removed. Sharing a great-grandmother/great-great grandmother in Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso. Her father
Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso
Sir John St. John
Alice St. John
Sir Henry Parker
Jane Parker Viscountess Rochford
Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso
Margaret Beaufort Countess Richmond
Henry VII
Henry VIII
@@AmberGraves80 but if Henry was impotent, he would have known that Katherine Howard couldn't have been pregnant by him? Would he have been willing to accept a son fathered by somebody else and pass it as his own, only prove to people he was capable of fathering children?
I think Henry would of been to proud to accept the fact that he was impotent and if Katherine was to have a baby his ego would allow him to believe it was his
I found this really fascinating. As a woman Jane Boleyn probably got more of the blame than she deserves. I think that Henry wanted to get rid of Anne and he expects people to enable this to happen. Jane was just another pawn in his tyrannical reign
A line many pawns for his happiness that just ends up being his misery.
Jane Rochford helped Henry get rid of Anne, a woman who supposedly committed adultery. Because she did not immediately report her doubts about Amme's supposed indiscretions, she was not exactly been a commendable guardian of a Queen's virtue. Making Jane one of Katherine Howard's ladies-in-waiting, he was rewarding Jane for her help in incriminating Anne. If Jane Rochford had connived with the Boleyn's in the beginning, why did he trust Jane's suitability to set a good example for Katherine Howard? If she had not been able to, from Henry's viewpoint, keep Anne from betraying her marriage vows, why did Henry think she could prevent chaperone the extremely young and vulnerable Catherine Howard?
How wonderful that you had the opportunity to portray Lady Rochford! One summer recently, while I was portraying a shopkeeper at our local Renaissance faire (I'm told this is mainly an American thing, not terribly historically accurate but an absolute blast nonetheless), I ran into a patron who did a pretty good portrayal of Anne Boleyn, right down to the B necklace. I sat down next to her and we talked a bit, and as I was making my farewells I said, "Mind your neck, madam, remember that t'is only a little one."
Thank you for bringing historical figures off the dusty page and presenting them as the complicated, multi-faceted, flesh and blood people they were! 🙌🙌
You can imagine her being under pressure being questioned about the men potentially going in and out of Anne’s chambers and her saying ‘no no, just her brother who is a loving support to her’ Something as innocuous as that, which was leapt on and twisted into the incest accusation
Thus is what i think is most likely
That is a very insightful interpretation of a very possible scenario. She could have made what she thought was an innocent comment which was then twisted to mean something else.
Could very much have happened like that.
@@janvan113 I agree. Her innocent comments could have been twisted to be used against Anne Boleyn & George
I'm sure the threat of torture/death swayed her thinking too.
I still stand by my former statement, yet having reexamined Jane and the circumstances, and watching this video and others, there is something else which struck me.
Could Jane have fallen so easily into a plan for KH to become pregnant by TC not only to insure her own place, but for a deep seated resentment, even hatred of King Henry and REVENGE for her husbands death... maybe she saw a child not from King Henrys loins as a way to get back at him for the lies and murder of her husband and Anne, and having to accept less than what she saw as her due... How many people were honestly unafraid of King Henrys moods, whims and demands? And if Katherine Howard had become pregnant with a son everyone would have benefitted...
Interesting theory and just as plausible as any other.
adore this idea!
Yes, I believe this could be true. It’s something I’d consider in the same circumstances. But Henry’s line ended anyway. Elizabeth I knew what she was doing, and avenged her mother in the only way she could.... remain unmarried and childless. Then she handed the throne to the Scots. Priceless.🤣
@@Roz-y2dElizabeth I even on her last breath refused to outright name a successor even though she knew it would probably be to King James.
Absolutely loving your videos. Your channel is my favourite lockdown discovery. Thank you for doing them.
ME TOO👍👌♥️❤️
I think one thing that is definitely known is that Tudor Court was a dangerous place. I think a woman such a Jane could have been easily manipulated and coerced by powerful men to undertake things not necessarily in her best interests. Everyone knew the fate of the Queen’s who did not produce a male heir; perhaps it’s possible that Jane was trying to save Catherine’s life by any means to produce that “heir.” I think the true story is probably very complex when considering all the players in a game of survival.
Love this channel and all the videos-it makes my week when a new one is uploaded. I too tell everyone I know to check you out! Bravo on 30,000 subscribers!
The cuckoo heir theory is a good one, but it depends on Henry and Catherine actually sleeping together. It seems (imo) quite likely that by the time of their marriage the 'impotence' hinted at in the Boleyn trial may have become ingrained. Remember he claimed he could not consummate his marriage with Ann of Cleves because he 'liked her not' and she 'smelled' (Pretty rich coming from an obese bloke with a stinky ulcer) What if the real reason was because he could not get it up? In which case it is a very dangerous game to be playing. We know Henry called her his 'Rose without a Thorn' but I don't think even he was so blinded by infatuation as to believe she was capable of an Immaculate Conception!
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 I do have to assume that they at least slept together a few times. I doubt they had a wild sex life, but Howard wasn't AS silly as she's often portrayed. I'm not saying she was Anne Boleyn or Catherine of Aragon smart, but I do believe she does deserve some credit. Seeing as though, besides Parr, Howard was the only one with KNOWN sexual experience before marrying, I think it's safe to say she was at least smart enough to know what would happen to her if she got pregnant without having sex with Henry in a reasonable amount of time.
Plus, if you factor how Henry and Catherine's relationship went before it really went downhill, it does kind of fit with something behind the scenes. He would get into moods where he didn't want anything to do with her AND was thinking of divorcing her. If it was just the former, it could easily be applied to his health, but also divorcing too? From what we know of Henry, especially post Jane, this does kind of fit with him not being able to preform and blaming the woman. Of course it's not actual evidence because a lot can happen over months. Just knowing what we know about Henry, there are really good odds that whatever she did to upset him during those times was really all him.
With no actual evidence of Jane being the woman she's often portrayed as, there are few reasons that make any sense for her to get involved with Howard and Culpepper.
I agree, the only way that my planned fake prince theory could work was if H & K were having the occasional semblance of a sex life.
@@ReadingthePast That's the theory put forth in Philippa Gregory's The Boleyn Inheritance (very good) and the YA novel The King's Rose (good, but not great).
I agree with you. Henry’s court had to have been a very complex and treacherous place to be, abounding with all kinds of unwritten rules that may not have come down to us in full detail through historical accounts. Those social norms encouraged deceitful behavior that functioned as a survival mechanism.
The nobles included in the highest Royal circles moved in a sequestered, hyper-vigilant atmosphere. Most of them didn’t have wide experience with other classes.
Women, in particular, were valued as breeding stock, one step above chattel. It may be that Lady Rochford made the most of the tools she had to work with. She survived longer than many. She almost outlived Henry.
Lady Rochford lasted through quite a number of twists and turns. This indicates that she was either more duplicitous than her peers or just luckier. Henry was a raging narcissist to begin with and, as he got older, sicker, and more desperate to bend the world to his will, he must’ve been like living with a volcano that could irrupt it anytime. Not a life I would have liked to have had.
Well you've done it again - made me wonder if what I thought I knew about Lady Rochford was quite accurate. I had got my notion of her from Hilary Mantel, who based her fictionalized accounts upon and from close research. So I had a picture of a bitter and clever woman who hated her womanizing husband to whom she had been contracted with no say of her own, for all that it was commonplace at the time. But your analysis and research gives a different notion. Now I have to go away and think. I know you like to make people think. Thank you again - I so enjoy your presentations.
Your voice was very quiet for me for some reason, so when I got to the music part of the introduction, I jumped out of my seat because I had turned it way up :) I'm awake! I'm awake! Thanks for this video. Very interesting!
I'm glad it's not just me. I can't really hear her voice. And this is such a fascinating topic!
@@TheTam0613 Same! I ended up stopping the video. :(
Me too
haha that was me too. Dr Kat was just trying to make sure everyone was awake!
I use a HP Mini when listening w my phone and with my tablet I use a slightly larger external loudspeaker (bluetooth) that makes almost all vids much easier to hear
I'm a retired nurse from the USA with an interest in medicine and English history. I love your presentations. Please do one on diseases of medieval times...what was sweating sickness?
Wow, are you the storyteller! You had me spellbound from beginning to end. What a horrible end for Katherine and Jane. I can't imagine witnessing my friend being dispatched in such a manner knowing I'm next; and yet bravely giving testimony to her faith in God. She was very foolish to involve herself in such clandestine subterfuge. Here experience with Anne and her husband George should have been enough. Thank you for sharing this bit of history. What a bloody era. All of England must have breathed a sign of relief when Henry died.
Just saw this pop up, and thought 'yes, what a way to start the weekend!!!'
Lol same here!!!!
I would be most interested to hear you talk about Catherine Howard, herself. She seems to me have had a very sad, neglected childhood that led her to look for love in all the wrong places, until she was forced to become a pawn in a lethal game that she had little control over. I think she might actually be the most tragic of Henry’s wives...but what do you think? 😉
To me "looking for love" even is a stretch. She strikes me as a child that was groomed by adult men to satisfy their sexual desires and then forced into marriage with the King, for which she was entirely unprepared and unsuited, by ruthless family members and a monarch who would not be denied something he wanted.
I think yours is a really childish comment
@@ryanborder189 do elaborate.
@@superhetoric
You are judging people from 500 years ago by the values of today-they simply would not have thought about life in the same way we did. She was delighted to become Queen because of the lavish lifestyle she would have enjoyed. Her immaturity did not let her realise she was playing with fire.
@@ryanborder189Several assumptions here so you are judging as well, someone you did not know. None of us have any idea, we can guess but it is only a guess.
I've got my volume up (and keyboard up) to 100% so the sound is fairly OK. The music is very loud, but then Dr Kat's volume goes down again after that to fairly OK. After watching two Dr Kat videos I've subscribed. I hardly ever do that. This woman is a historical gem!
Thank you Dr. Kat for bringing to light so many details that are not usually heard. Your ability to bring out the layers in historical figures is absolutely fascinating. After learning of her writing a letter of support to George as he was in the tower, I have a more favorable opinion of Lady Jane Rochford than I previously did. That fact alone seems to point in a different direction than her being the one to cast blame for incest. And as you also pointed out, it seems unlikely that she would purposely jeopardize her own position by having her husband accused of treason. I hadn't thought about that before. I was very interested to see this new video, with a chance to learn more about her, and hear your interpretation of events. Loved it!
Love you and Claire. Both of you have such an unbiased grasp of the Tudors.
I’ve just found your page today, I have stood in the kitchen doing my Christmas baking and just listened to you talking. 4 hours later I am hooked, thank you so much and Best wishes for Christmas and New Year x
I love that you explore a different version of Jane. I always had trouble believing that she was so nasty/evil/one dimensional. I'm sure she did what everyone did at Henry's court; try to stay on the king's good side. If Henry knew that the "evidence" against Anne was fictitious, he may well have opted to "forgive" those who had gone along with his narrative. He certainly continued to support the Duke of Norfolk, and he did not impoverish Thomas Boleyne. I'm sure that Henry just wanted to put it all behind him.
I truly think figuring out what was happening in the hearts of those involved here is terribly difficult. The two really strange things that stand out are (1) Her survival when the rest of the Boleyn faction fell, and (2) Her taking part in treasonous activity on behalf of Catherine Howards.
As far as #1 goes, one can understand the likely source of her survival, even full return to court--namely, that she provided something of value, proving her loyalty was to the King. Given the alternative, I can well believe she broke and told a lie. This of course does not make her a villain but rather someone terrified.
This makes #2 a likely case of some complex emotional motivations, as well as perhaps attempting to simply back the wrong horse.
Either way, there is precious little clarity about her heart, her mind, her emotional state. We are left to imagine what scenario makes the most sense to us as individuals.
Enjoyed this one. I enjoyed her presence in The Tudors TV series.
Love your channel, you've quickly become one of my most watched for very good reason - subject matter, presentation, many reasons! Is anybody else having trouble with the sound on this particular video, or just me? The intro music came in loud and clear, but I had to crank the volume way up for the speaking part. I don't want to miss a single word of Dr. Kat's always-fascinating talks!
I so love these uploads Dr. Kat.
I appreciate that you don't go for the obvious characters from our history. I value your empathy towards them and how you show us that people in the past were three dimensional, just as we are today, despite their rank, marriages, intrigues, trappings of wealth and privilege. You bring them back to us absolutely, along with their hopes, dreams, jealousies, loves, fears etc.
I've always thought it strange that Jane stayed on at court and didn't lose her properties, title or character which would be highly unusual for the wife of an executed traitor.
Tbh I've always thought of her as a "bit" player in the wrong place at the wrong time or an innocent bystander, until now. I begin to understand that she was far more. She must have been highly intelligent, astute, stronger and more "canny" than she's given credit for. Whatever her motives and actions she must have had to walk an extremely fine line given the machinations, not least from some frighteningly powerful characters such as Thomas Cromwell, and the hotbed of dangerous gossip within the Royal court surrounding her. The flashbacks to her family's downfall and the horror of the fate she knew would inevitably await her would I'm sure bring on some type of nervous breakdown. To me she's all the more impressive as she was a then unmarried woman alone, from a "fallen" family. Of course I'm sure that she was grateful at times for her uncle!! I now see her in a decidedly different light and am curious about her motives. Btw you looked amazing in the photograph as Jane. I hope that you and Jaime are both safe and well.
PS.
Thanks again for your previous book recommendations, I've devoured each one with relish ❤
The ad is still playing. I’m so excited to see where you will take us with this one! I tell EVERYONE about you lol. Thanks for this. Thank to Jamie too. Feel like your family
Thank you for your thorough and thought provoking presentation on Lady Rochford. It seems to me regarding her involvement with Queen Catherine's trysts with Culpepper that she was unable to control her natural tendencies toward mischief. She obviously enjoyed being the go-between the two and maybe even encouraged it thinking she might never be caught.
I'm shivering! I definitely thought of Jane Boleyn as a nasty piece of work, due, as you say, to her portrayal in historical fiction, but you have given me interesting food for thought.
I still think Jane was a nasty piece of work
I’ve recently discovered your videos and they are fantastic!
I’m an Anglophile and have watches everything about British Royalty since the 1970’s PBS version of Henry VIII.
Jane Bolin, the lady Rochford has always been portrayed as an evil person. Listening to your video though it gives me pause. She may not have been completely evil, she may not have been completely good. But a woman of her time trying to navigate a political situation that had volatile elements that were not completely under her control. So she did not have the complete picture, what was exactly going on in Henry’s mind,and was working from an incomplete picture. She was not as clever as she thought. But then, that’s how a lot of people ended up on the block.
Wow! Congrats on passing 31k subscribers! I enjoy your presentations so much. Every time I think- Oh, she forgot about that detail- you come through with the goods!
Thank you for the informative and balanced video. Jane Boleyn( Berlin in the closed captioning) is a difficult case. I would almost always give the woman the benefit of the doubt, but since this happened twice, it looks pretty bad. The third Duke of Norfolk was probably using her, but it still makes little sense. I read somewhere years ago that the 4th Duke of Norfolk went quite mad in 1572 after repeated warrants for his execution were withdrawn by the Queen, only to be executed on the fourth warrant.
Your videos are always so interesting and enlightening, even on topics I'm relatively well versed on. I don't read or watch nonfiction as part of my Sabbath observances, and I've begun really looking forward to delving into your videos on those days. Your empathy towards this divisive historical person is really honorable, and I think it bears keeping in mind; we hear only the echoes of history and it's important to keep that in mind when judging figures harshly. Keep up the wonderful work; we're so here for it!
I didn’t know a thing about Jane Boleyn, thank you so much for these captivating lessons🤓
This is my favorite video yet. I love knowing more intimate details about historical figures lives. We can imagine the dread Lady Rochford must have felt. The mental breakdown that assuredly she must have been experienced. I just can't imagine why Lady Rochford would be so brazen as to assist the young queen in an affair. I think you are right, in that there was family pressure to do so. Sadly, it cost her everything. I loved this video Dr. Kat. I have come away with deep thoughts and empathy for not just Lady Rochford, but for most women that have lived Richard's Tudor Court. So much drama, so much pressure to fulfill a prince for the king, when he obviously had medical problems that affected his ability to... well, you know. Sadly, he when he finally was born a prince, he lost another Queen. This Queen he seemed to have genuinely loved, or at least to have had affection for. His court had it all; Schemings, Trauma, Lies and deceit, Tragedy, Death and Birth. The most amazing thing to come out of this Patriarchal court was the birth of 2 strong women that would go on to rule a matriarchal court. One for a short time and was given a rather unfair bloody moniker. The other, to rule for her adult life, as she ushered in the new Elizabethan Britain.
The dress you wear in that picture is amazing! It suits you really well ❤
I had an entirely different opinion going into this video. You’ve given such great detail that I’ve come to see her in a new light. I just found your channel and I’m in love! This is my favorite period of history and I can’t thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. ❤️
I loved that your lecture was on Jane Parker, Lady Rochford. You explained away my confusion immediately why she had both titles. I had heard her only called as "Lady Rochford" and then the more I surfed the Internet and watched other videos she was called "Jane Parker". I also really like villains and she certainly has been portrayed in my lifetime as the villainess against Anne & George and her jealousy toward their "too close relationship". I did not know until surfing here and there that she was brought back to court by Jane Seymour & I never could understand why on earth she would help out Catherine Howard. You explained each of those topics so well. By no means have I watched each of your videos, but I have enjoyed this one on my favorite "villainess" or not so much "villainess" Lady Rochford the most. I look forward to your upcoming videos.
FASCINATING. I love, love, love your thoughtful analyses (I've watched three so far and intend to watch all.) Here are some thoughts.
Jane was first and foremost a creature of the court. From a very early age, she'd learned to navigate that rabbit's warren of intrigue and treachery. To be deprived of her milieu, which is what happened after she failed in her commission by Queen Anne to remove Madge Shelton from court, must have stung. It would have been human nature for her to ask her husband and sister-in-law to use their influence to effect her reinstatement. I suspect her opinion was they didn't try hard enough, ergo her decision to agitate on behalf of the Lady Mary (in defiance of all of Queen Anne's interests). I think she was enraged.
However much we may empathize with Anne Boleyn (well, I do, at least), our partiality cannot blind us to the fact that Anne was only sporadically capable of kindness. She was high-strung, temperamental--not an easy woman to work for. I'm not sure she and Jane were anything more than friends of convenience. And if Jane did at one point love her husband, a charming if somewhat feckless young man, wouldn't she have been somewhat resentful at his natural simpatico with his sister?
Yet Jane was still made of human parts. In Cromwell's terrifying hands she may have been biddable, but her conscience must have smote her. For me, the waters get a lot more opaque once we reach the Kathryn Howard days. Like you, I wonder if Kathryn and Jane conspired to have Kathryn conceive an heir by any means possible. What closure or satisfaction did Jane receive by facilitating these dangerous rendezvous between Kathryn and Culpeper? And what did the king hope to gain by showering Jane with the best medical care during her convalescence?
Great stuff. Consider me a huge fan of your vlog. I'll be watching many more in the future.
Great video 👍. I know that I have harbored an unfair bias against Jane, due mostly to the way she is portrayed in historical fiction and how historians have treated her in the past. I never really thought about how truly terrifying those experiences must have been for her or how much trauma she probably carried with her. Awesome work!
I found your videos and found them amazing. A fresh but realistic look at history..THANK YOU!
I totally agree, I think Norfolk will have played a hand for sure.
As for motive, who knows? Maybe Lady Jane witnessed how disposable KoA and AB were on not producing an heir and she acted (under instruction/threat?) to try and help her mistress and relation Katherine as Henry couldn't do the deed. These were dangerous times for everyone and women, especially, didn't have much or any control over their lives.
I think you are spot on! I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You always bring a fresh look at your subjects. You are incredibly insightful! Thanks so very much for all the work and time you put into these efforts!😄❤
Dr. Kat acknowledged her potential bias at the beginning of the video and by doing so invited us to examine our own biases. Just as it is nearly impossible for westerners to understand the almost sacred responsibility of host for guest in Middle Eastern cultures, it is very difficult for the 21st century woman to imagine the pressure felt by a lady in the Tudor court. Now, I don't think I could walk to work past my husband's head on a pike unless I really hated him. (Figure of speech... no commutes past spikes were necessary.) But what options did Jane have? It's not as though she could freshen up her resume and start networking. "Experienced lady-in-waiting seeks new position with potential for growth. Will work for food and silk fabric. Available immediately."
Jane Boleyn and her possible motivations have fascinated me for years. I’ve never believed she made that statement about George and Anne because that would be a really stupid move and especially after a decade in that family and having been at court for so long she would certainly know better. Destroying the Boleyn’s would ultimately lead to her own downfall. As for her motivation for helping Katherine Howard I teeter back and forth between revenge and some type of mental break. The king had literally destroyed her whole family yet, she was forced to remain at court in service to subsequent queens. I could certainly see her finally drifting away from reality as Henry grew steadily more brutal and horrifying. It was probably a combination of both.
I could see her growing close to Katherine because she didn't seem to have any close ties or recorded friendships. That didn't mean there WEREN'T any, but I just read her biography and though people helped her, it seems to be tit for tat and she seems very isolated figure. She had no children or romantic interests, so perhaps she developed a maternal/aunt bond with a girl who was very important and also attached to her. That doesn't mean she should be helping her endanger herself, but deep attachment when we have no one else can be very powerful.
I think she should have learned from her first go round with His Magesty, to Not play him! I don't know if I wouldn't have run away at first mention of my involvement in treasonous infidelity; with my fingers in my ears, yelling na na na na I can't hear you!
I love the fact that you always give a balanced view of historical figures who have, in many cases, been reviled for centuries. I'm wondering how ladies were chosen to be part of the court, and especially to be ladies in waiting. Were they put forward by male relatives? Would they have been allowed to decline? I would also like to request that you do a program on Katherine de Roet Swynford, who married John of Gaunt. The various family connections to Geoffrey Chaucer and the Beaufort lineage are so interesting.
Great question, for the most part places at court (for men and women) were a recognition of the prominence of the family coupled with the favour of the monarch. If they did not shine in that place as a credit to their family, it is highly possible they would be allowed to become insignificant by that family, particularly if they had another "better" candidate primed to take the place.
Katherine and John of Gaunt are on my list for the future.
Dr. Kat, your videos are A GODSEND!! Your research is clearly impeccable. I can't thank you enough for the work that you have put in to making these video essays. I especially respond to your tone and delivery and I love your accent, you're a delight to hear! You present your information in such a way that I can completely understand your point of view and yet can still find myself drawing my own conclusions and formulating my own thoughts when all is said and done. As far as Jane Boleyn goes, I have always found her such a fascinating character study but it's difficult to fully wrap your head around her story because of the slander that she has endured, especially since her unfortunate portrayal on The Tudors. I am also of the belief that she was close to and highly regarded by the Boleyn family, including her husband. Until I heard your perspective though, I wasn't really sure why she would do something so seemly stupid as acting as a go-between to assist Katherine Howard in her illicit affair with Culpeper. Now, I do think there is something to what you say about Norfolk possibly persuading her to oversee and keep the rendezvous secret by promising her rewards and protection of some sort. It's certainly the kind of thing Norfolk would do! Thank you again for your incredible channel and for all that you do. It is very much appreciated!
A bit late to the party but I've only just discovered your channel. I love the way that you explain history - it's interesting and compelling without being sensationalised. Thank you :)
I just recently discovered your you tube channel...and I love it.
The way how you present history almost like you are telling a story, a secret... questioning...inviting us to dive into the past ...your great and deep knowledge about the Tudors and aristocrats, relationships, events, politics, plots, cloths...everything around the court.....is fascinating.
You’re amazing! Thank you for your views, so interesting!
Lady Rochford is my favorite historical personality of the Tudor era, she saw a lot, she was there, 5 queens she attended, there should be more novels with her as the protagonist of the book 😉 thank you for the video and all your others, they're so awesome thank you 🥇😉
I just adore your interpretation and take on history. Thank you for these lovely videos.
I think that she was really just a nasty piece of work who got well over her head but always got lucky and found a way out to save herself, and because she was a manipulative, stirring trouble sort of person it made her easy prey to also be manipulated by much more intelligent and powerful people. We sometimes in life come across people not dissimilar to this type of person and they always get their comeuppance in the end. I think she was a "fake friend" type and probably has a well deserved reputation as a villainess.
I'm just wondering what you are basing this on.
@@indiciaobscure nothing nothing at all just his interpretation
Hey there Dr Kat! This was fantastic video, thank you for making it. I’m one of those people who thought Jane Boleyn was a villain, for sure. She’s portrayed as this scheming, gossipy woman who hated her husband and was hatching plots all over the place. But as always, the real story is a lot more nuanced. Thank you for bringing that out in this video.
i like your version of jane boleyn better than what I have seen in film or history docs. interesting how the uncle Duke seemed to scheme and plan with the boleyns and come away as clean and sweet smelling as a daisy. hmmmmm. wonder how the rest of his life went? a possible video i hope----how did the duke and daddy boleyn make out after all the killing of their kin?
Thomas Howard , 3rd Duke of Norfolk was arrested along with his eldest son, Henry Howard, earl of Surrey right at the end of Henry's reign and were charged with treason.his son was executed but King Henry died before Norfolk's death warrant could be signed. He was in the Tower throughout the reign of Edward VI, and was then released and pardoned by Queen Mary and would die in his bed aged over 80 years old.
This was fascinating! I've wondered about Jane Boleyn ever since that BBC mini series about Henry VIII in the 70s, with Keith Michell. Both that series and Phillippa Gregory's novels implied that, although she was not a very nice woman, she did not deliberately betray George and Anne Boleyn. She was given a confession written by someone else (the cardinal?) and told to sign this or die.
Love your videos. Just found them.
I’d love to hear more about the Woodville’s. The foundation of the Woodville clan, their rise and fall. What did Elizabeth Woodville really think about her Uncle Richard, the princes in the Tower and then having to marry the usurper Henry Tudor. And did she believe in the validity of the “Imposter Edward “.
I have just found your channel and have been binge watching .Thank you so much for your podcasts they are so interesting as I love history
Brilliant. I agree entirely.
But, perhaps it has already been perfectly summed up as this.. "One Must walk in a man's shoes Before He has the right or privilege to make a remark upon His plight."
Beautifully put! But, do you not think that the investiging history requires people to do the opposite?
To be honest, my opinion of Jane Boleyn was greatly influenced by the way she was portait in the Tudors show... And also by the interpretation of her apology for "many sins". And later I found out that there is no temporary account of her actually admitting her guilt. It's so very hard to decipher her nowadays - it is so very suspicious that she stayed so long at court, after going through such a dramatic event. As you pointed out she was considered a wife of a traitor, and yet she reappeared so quickly as a lady of queen Jane. The question is wheather it was her choice to come back - was she manipulated or rather she was the manipulator. I guess it is one of the questions that shall never be truly answered.
Great video! As always! :D
Since she was now a widow, she would have had to find a means of support, assuming that her husband's assets were taken by the crown. Position with the new queen would have helped her financially and also in the respectability department.
Almost every execution speech of the time mentions they are a great sinner. They also say positive things about the king, but that doesn't mean they liked him or wanted good things for him. It was believed at that time that every person deserved to die because of original sin and they were only saved through Christ's mercy. By sticking to the traditional execution speech format they affirmed their faith in God, preserved some dignity, and kept their families safe.
@@diannelavoie5385 She managed to gain a suitable estate and a sizable widow's portion (Thomas Boleyn had tried to deny her half of her inheritance, but Cromwell intervened helped her.) She could have comfortably retired in the country. There is a possibility that Cromwell wanted her services in recompense as his eyes and ears in Anne of Cleve's chambers (many courtiers held similar roles so it wasn't as sleazy as it sounds). But after Cromwell was gone, she certainly could have left. But she had no children, and I would imagine life in the country would be very boring without a family. She could have remarried, but any woman marrying was taking a risk as her husband would be in charge. She probably enjoyed the social life and influence she enjoyed at court, and having as close to a 'career' as a woman of her position could have.
I believe it's completely possible that Jane's mental breakdown was real.
I just love your videos, Dr. Kat. You are very knowledgeable - that along with your very pleasant manner make a great combination! Thank you!
it always worries me when we read of the downfall of historic people, especially in the Tudor times. There was so much propaganda and he said, she said it makes it difficult to know what to believe. personally i'm with you on this Dr Kat, in a time when women were pawns in mens games i dont think Jane would have had any choice in her actions and would have done what she was told to survive.
Congratulations on 30,000 subscribers! So enjoy your videos - they’ve been great to binge! I suppose I have had a negative view of Jane Boleyn for how she’s been portrayed. I so love how you present things. Thank you for this video.
Is there support for the possible scheme to have Thomas Culpeper father a Tudor prince? That would make for a fascinating historial novel.
Do u think they would’ve been at all able to pull that off?
I suggest the potential because it is a way for me to make sense of Jane's involvement. If the correct correlation of circumstances occurred then, theoretically it could have worked - would those involve have felt the gamble to be worth it?
Reading the Past It’s always made the most sense to me. Looked at another way, once Catherine discovered Henry was totally or largely impotent, what were her options? Can you imagine her dawning horror on learning this? On realising its implications for her? Would any sane woman have just remained childless and accepted her fate? Does anyone believe that Henry would have tolerated childlessness in his nubile teenaged new Queen? It’s always seemed to me that Catherine was in a parlous position either way and anyone with ambition and political instincts (whether young Catherine herself, or her ambitious family) would have sought an urgent solution.
@@hannyhawkins7804 I agree. Did you dictate your comment?
It's one of the plots of Philippa Gregory's novel _The Boleyn Inheritance_ (covers Jane Rochford's time serving Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard). In this novel Jane is assigned to do whatever it would take to at least make Henry think that any child Katherine bore was his. When it turned out that Thomas Culpepper was infatuated enough with Katherine to risk an illicit relationship with the young Queen, Jane manipulated both of them in hopes that a baby would be the result.
Of course it's only a historical novel and Gregory is known to take liberties for the sake of a story, so who knows.
the volume is very quiet on this video, aside from the music near the beginning.
At least one or two before this video also has bad quality sound. I'm giving up on this one. Could you fix the audio for later installments?
I had no issues with the volume. It worked fine for me.
I greatly enjoy your talks! You give me a lot of new
insights into these people and make them REAL.
Thank you so much. Please keep posting them.
Well done. Very thought provoking and interesting!
i think her bad reputation was enhanced by Shelia Burrell's excellent but rather sinister performance in 1970's The Six Wives of Henry VIII.
I rented those videos when I was 16 and the name 'Lady Rochfort' still has a sinister ring to me because of that series.
An excellent presentation as always. I could listen to you all day. To chat about this period over a pot of tea, and a nice sponge, would be a dream come true.
I must admit you’ve softened my opinion of Jane Boleyn: I’d always thought of her as the sister-in-law from hell, who finally got her just desserts.
I absolutely love your videos your voice is amazing it's calming and I have severe mental disabilities I could listen to you all day long but the music you put with your videos makes it almost impossible baby
It’s natural you would have a bias as any good actor finds ways to justify their character’s actions and motives. That Thomas Howard was pulling the strings makes perfect sense. However, Jane seems to have always wanted to be where the celebrity and power was. She seems envious of the center roles others had, trying to insert herself as much as possible. It excited her to be in with the in-crowd. I think she was silly and lacked good judgement. Not evil, just easily corrupted.
This is the best TH-cam channel ever! I love your thorough insight ♥️♥️
Hello, Dr. Kat. I can't say enough about your wonderful channel. My spouse and I have just begun watching it here in North Carolina. Never stop!
Like many viewers of your channel, I'm very interested in the Tudor period. However, the earliest Tudor period -- pertaining to the Tudor bloodline entering the royal bloodline -- fascinates me, i.e., the widowed Queen Katherine of Valois and her "secret" marriage to Owen Tudor, her master of the wardrobe. Their marriage was an "open secret" at court ... while she was pregnant? And had five children? The eventual Henry, Duke of Richmond, taking the throne in 1483. I'm familiar with this general story line, but you have a way of digging out details of it all. I hope you'll eventually take on this subject.
Other subjects I'd like to see you cover:
- The two Princes in the Tower
- The Argyll Colony of 1739 to North Carolina (yeah, that would be a stretch)
- Bonnie Prince Charlie and Flora McDonald
Thank you 😊 I will add all of these fabulous suggestions to my list for future videos 🙌
I came across one of your videos accidentally and it was wonderful. Now I’m kind of hooked. Thank you fir doing these videos!
Ooh I’ve been meaning to watch your Tudor videos (which is not my favorite era but I am endeavoring to think what might have changed if Catherine took the throne in the divorce “agreement”) but I would also love to see you make a video about the “Imperial Woman” since we know so little about her.
I knew she wrote a letter to George when he was in the Tower of London. I read the Downfall of Anne Boleyn and the George Boleyn history novels from Claire Ridgeway. Before I read them I thought she was spiteful and vindictive. I couldn’t be more wrong. As for her remaining in court, I believe she had no choice. Your video and your interpretation of Lady Rochford was amazing. I love your videos.
Leticia Garcia Claire is awesome. Have you subscribed to her channel?
@@frightbat208 I agree, My pleasure is to watch both Dr Kat and Claire Ridgeway videos because they always give documents from primary sources. It gives new light to events we heard of, read about or watched in series or movies. I love historical fiction like Philippa Gregory's but I always check after what is real from what she made up as a novelist.
Fright Bat
Yes I have.
Elvira de Bord
I agree. I look forward to see their videos. I also like Philippa Gregory’s novels. I’m looking forward for season 2 of the Spanish Princess.
@@lexomil1414 Me too..
I can’t wrap my head around how someone, especially like Jane, could stay at court after witnessing the irrational wrath of Henry VIII. Talk about a loose end.
Women of that day, as far as I've read, did not have much in the way of choice. One was told they were to serve in a specific position for specific people, as the males negotiated. It is possible Lady Rochford was not as politcally savvy as Dr Kat presents, thus being easily ensnared in the wranglings of power plays. It was a volatile court full of superstitions requiring , and as a testament in Elizabeth 1, intelligence to be a successful participant.
Alysen Cameron that is so true, it is appalling how little say women had in their own affairs in those days. It may well have been the case for Jane. However, like Dr Kat mentioned, it is unusual that Henry VIII would have allowed her to stay at court after the downfall of the family she was married into. Unless she helped him by testifying, or maybe Jane Seymour asked for her specifically? Then again, Howard stayed at the court after both Anne and Catherine, so who knows. Such a mystery, le sigh.
I just don’t understand why she would stay there if she had a choice, but you’re probably right Alysen, she more than likely didn’t have a choice either way. Sorry my last comment went rambling lol.
The court was where the gravy was doled out. Everyone wanted to be there in a position they could use for their own ends and to advance the family firm.
Jaymes Guy scary stuff, huh? What a strange time in history. Tudor social media.
Love your videos. And I believe Jane did the best that she could to survive. I don't believe she told them that Ann and Thomas were sleeping together. As far as Katherine and Culpeper are concerned, I honestly don't know. Perhaps as others have mentioned it was to get an heir...?
But that leads to my next question, can you please do a video on Katherine?? I always feel so sorry for the poor mite 💔. So young with it seems no guidance. I know there is not much on her, but even your thoughts as woman would be appreciated.
And I just finished the The Five, loved that. Those poor women deserved better.
Katherine Howard is on my list for the future - really pleased you are enjoying the content!
@@ReadingthePast Yes, I'd love a video on Katherine Howard too!
Dr. Kat, this was both fascinating and thought-provoking. To be perfectly honest, I’ve never before thought much of Jane Boleyn. Now I will think about her a good bit. Thank you for enriching my thoughts.
In playing Jane Boleyn you chose a difficult subject. It is much easier to play Anne as all you have to do is amble in! 😀
Loved the video and learned a lot. Thank you Dr. Kat 🌷
😂"amble in"... love it!
Thank you! I enjoyed this video very much. I am so excited that I found you!!!
I always enjoy your videos & learn a good bit. Your personal history is also interesting. Thank you for sharing your perspectives & insights.
I think you are correct and your reasoning, well researched and presented- as usual!. I have always though that she and her husband had a hard relationship but were, if not happy with one another, at least resigned to being together. I feel she was smart and had a sharp tongue so men of the time disliked her and her forward attitude. I think she got a raw deal throughout her life and met her end with dignity. Thanks again for these awesome videos they have made my pandemic confinement bearable
Just found out she’s my 17th great grand aunt thank you this was so informational
Very interesting, gave me a better understanding of Jane Boleyn - the woman caught up in an awkward and perilous court and trying to survive! Thankyou Dr Kat.
I saw this video and I just had to watch. Great title and a perfect start to the weekend.
I have to confess that I've been under the influence of literature and movies, thinking for a very long time, that Jane was jealous wife, who participated in the murder of her husband and sister in law. It was Claire Ridgway who first changed my mind. I'm always happy to find balanced report on the basis of the evidence. I think that Jane had a good relationship with her husband and sister in law. I think it is possible, that she saw a daughter in Catherine Howard, trying to help her, but failed and then she had enough - all of her people gone, she went and died almost gladly. It is not fair she is portrayed as a villain.
Thank you for this video. Maybe, if someday you are in search for the theme of the video - I've always been intrigued by Stanley family , but not know much about them. But I think the influenced the history much more than people are aware.
petunijadu same. It wasn’t until after watching Claire’s videos that I realised I was a victim of Philippa Gregory fiction. I love her books but I can’t read them ever again. ☺️ I’m glad I read them first though.
@@frightbat208 she really seems to hate the Tudors, as much as she writes them, they aren't very happy
I truly enjoy your posts. There is nothing like learning something new every day. As a side note, I have an almost identical wood bowl with the animals on the rim that I got in Tanzania a few years back.
I have one too. From Tanzania
@@arjunkrishna7654 It's a small world.
My husband got ours on a work trip to Djibouti
@@ReadingthePast "It's aSsmall World After All".
For a long time I thought Jane Boleyn was the lynch pin that brought George and Anne down. Yet the more evidence that comes out and the more we learn as the years go by, I have to feel at least in the case of Anne and George Jane was innocent.
I think that was Cromwell. If Jane hadn't said anything they would have found someone else who would. I think she said something, given she was saved, but not necessarily out of spite
This has probably been discussed and discarded for other information I do not know.
But maybe she just hated Henry? Like he murdered her husband, her friend and sister. Maybe she was just like “screw him”. She watched Anne Boleyn be miserable and lose her youth and life to this king. Maybe she wanted to help Catherine, and Anne of Cleves because she simple felt bad for these women having been forced into marriages to a violent obese dictator figure who has been responsible for so much suffering in her country and in her home? Idk maybe that’s stupid but it’s the first thing that came to mind.
Well done You, Dr. Kat once again! So very well researched, thought through and even thought given to these historical characters emotions, influences and outcomes. I enjoy each of your videos immensely and watch them repeatedly!
I don't know that I had a negative view of her. I did not see her as evil, but I did wonder why people of court gave her their confidences. Your explanation seems to make that make sense.
i love your channel. always so informative. Thank you so much. Greetings from Germany.🐞🍀😊
Having played Sister Mary Ignatius, I well understand the impulse to put a finger on the scale, which must be even stronger with real people. Facts are always useful. I've generally considered Lady R to have been not up to villain standard, but to have had a bit of a nasty streak - very useful for those times.
The most admirable character of the period may be the Duchess of Milan, who was in the running to be Wife #4.
I'm glad she wasn't she was far too good for Henry as was Catherine Parr. I like Catherine Parr a lot and Catherine of Aragon and I admire Anne Boleyn's intelligence but in the end Elizabeth won for her - her intelligence and cunning proving her to be her mother's daughter as well being free to not have a man have demonion over her - Dr Kat is right describing her as a chess player. I feel sorry for Katherine H - a young woman who was groomed by her music teacher at 14 at then used by men her whole life. I agree the Duke of Norfolk was a bastard never liked him. I dunno about Jane - I think George may well have been homo or bi sexual - he confessed to some sort of deviancy which wasn't invest and non hetronormative attractive would certainly have been seen as that by society and possibly him and Mark Smeaten had some very nice clothes he probably couldn't afford maybe it wasn't Anne who gave them to him but George but that doesn't mean she hated him there are couples in marriages of conveniences that overlook things their husbands do and sometimes agreements are made. I think Jane was a pragmatic intruiger but I think she may have had some sympathy for Katherine H and possibly Anne of Cleeves. I think though that if Cramner a man who was raised by the Boleyns and who obviously had a lot of respect for them could sell them out to save his own skin as could the family patriarch maybe we shouldn't judge Jane too harshly.
Hello, I found your channel yesterday and I really enjoy your videos! You seem to be a really nice and natural person - something that is becoming really rare on the internet. It's a pleasure to listen to you. The content is great as well.
Love from one of the oldest countries in Europe - Bulgaria :)
I have never been able to explain the extreme risk Jane took in aiding and abetting Katherine Howard’s extramarital adventures. Most Tudor women would have distanced themselves early on from such treasonous behavior. Your suggestion that it was someone else’s idea makes more sense.
Dr. Kat, you are amazing! I absolutely love your channel. I've been sharing your videos with my friends on Twitter.
I honestly didn't know much about Jane and now I must know more. Please recommend some good reading materials! Thank you as always for thought provoking content!!!
I recommend Julia Fox's biography, although she may be even kinder about Jane than me!
Interesting and complex perspective. I am troubled by her survival through many royal dramas. Was she owed favours but eventually over stepped her value. We will never know.
Dr. Kay, thank you. These videos are wonderful and I love them. Even with technical issues. You are providing a greatly appreciated respite from today’s social frontier and I want you to know I do subscribe because I want to keep watching.