I wonder if the ammo manufacturers have tried copper plated bismuth. It's almost as dense as lead and fairly abundant. The main drawback is that it is brittle, so the copper coating would be necessary to hold the bullet together.
I put a couple of boxes of the Norma Eco Power through a semi auto and 22 RPR.. both were pants. 3" groups at 50yds with both rifles, 5" groups at 90yds. Not tried the Eco Speed but would suspect similar results. You're completely right, most guns are rifled for Subsonic but with the added noise factor with these Hyper Velocity 22lr rounds, we may as well use a 17HMR or WSM. By thr way, I'm bringing a toy over to play with.. 🙈
I’ve shot these in my Ruger American 22 and couldn’t hit a 8 in plate at my zero distance. Put them on paper and got a 6 in group at 30 yards where Cci stingers and mini mags are roughly 1/2 inch groups.
Made a comment on the FSC fieldtester , a long one in fact. Silence is golden with .22 subs as far as I am concerned . If it cracks might as well use .17HMR if a ’green’ round is wanted .is there one! not looked into that.
I believe they have made a green .17hmr... But ref .22 I completely agree silence is the better option.. After all that's why we have them for stealthy rabbiting.
@@Baileysshooting hi Jon , thanks for the info on the green .17hmr. On the subject of ‘green’. Again i would like to thank you donating the prize of one ‘green coloured” Shooterking outfit back at 2019/20 to FS Britain and for the support you gave them . It was after winning this outfit in the draw that I started watching your very informative videos. This has done me proud while beating through out the winter months here in East Kent and while on the MOD ranges at Hythe and Lydd where I regularly shoot (Oyster Rifle Club). It can get a bit chilly there by the English Channel. Regards Perry PS I am also the the secretary of Oyster R C
I understand WHY you made this comparison but it is a bit unfair. Subsonic ammo with a zeroed scope will always have an advantage at the range because of the mass, geometric, BC, and inherent advantages to the subsonic regime. On the other hand, a "good enough" supersonic / high-velocity round can be useful for hunting where the flatter trajectory can increase your useful range interval for a specific scope setup and the higher velocity can also improve energy transfer to the target. I think a better comparison might be between the lead-free norma ammo and a high-velocity lead round like CCI's Velocitor. All of that said, we are in complete agreement on the need for a lead-free subsonic round. While I live in a state that does not restrict ammo, I don't want to foul my yard with lead since it will inevitably end up in my chickens (and subsequently my eggs), or it could end up in my garden if I use it for rabbit control. Currently I use this Norma ammo for rabbit control (which I guess has youtube recommending these videos) and I keep target practice and scope setup work to the minimum out of consideration of my neighbors.
Green mountain makes a 1:18 twist barrel optimized for stingers. They come out at a similar velocity and have pretty similar projectile weights. Might work decent for it
surely if they made a longer bullet and used a slower burner powder they would achieve the same results as standard velocity lead cartridges I’ve tried out lead free pellets and while accurate they loose energy fast and are dangerous and very prone to ricochets
Bit late but what i have learned about lead free 22lr it is not that simple. Do you think manufacturers havent tried those longer bullets ? Copper is mostly okay metal for ammo but it needs gun designed around it not otherway around like we are now trying to do. 1/16 rifling as typical 22lr is just too mild for faster and lighter projectiles what our norma stuff is now. And if we go longer to achieve subsonic there is literally no room for gunpowder or no safe load without exceeding champer tolerances to give that long hunk of copper enought speed. And again that projectile would be about 1/3 longer than your typical 22lr bullet so again 1/16 rifling will not stabilise it. Short versio small case and 1/16 rifling just arent made to shoot anything else than lead. Good luck to trying get somehow acceptable perfomance at 100 meters from other than lead projectile. Edit: Tungsten core inside of copper bullet would give enought weight to match similiar shape and perfomance as lead have now. But i dont think that is even close to be real solution because very simple other reasons...
.22 is all about being quite and I will not use anything else in my cz , because I can't get the amo I have bought a very expensive .25 air rifle, but that said , I really am enjoying the air gun 😁 👍 day time 177 hmr , night time for the quiet , the new air gun 😁
@@colinstubbs8734 I absolutely agree.. biggest issue is if they are moving over to none toxic they need to solve the weight issue so they run in existing rifles.
Sub Sonic vs hyper Sonic what is exactly your point ? I don't buy hyper Sonic for long range ... Heavy downrange ... light up close. Great way to waste ammo though.
My exact point is that manufacturers need to produce a heavier Subsonic none toxic round for the UK that can remain accurate.. at the present moment in time they can't gain the weight required to maintain this.. And in the UK we rely on Subsonic far more than spitting rounds out at 1700 fps..
I have tried every lead free .22 lr ammo available in my country and they were all horrible. I must use lead free ammo when hunting and don't know what to do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm jumping to 22mag or 17hmr for the same reason. Can't use lead for hunting and any no lead 22 options I've tried also shoot terrible. Just can't decide which round has better no lead options.
Complete shite aren't they! Hopefully the non-toxic ammo won't apply to .22lr 17hmr or 'air'. If it does, you may as well look at ditching the calibres. Lol... stock up on it whilst it's around and keep it in a nice stable environment... and don't share it 🤣
@@Baileysshooting lol... you would hope so wouldn't you. I've accepted the change to steel shot and likewise to copper for deer. I'm all for 'reasonable' change if it helps improve our image etc. Cheers for the info as always. By the way... will you be putting on a stand at the British Shooting Show in Feb 22?
All this HV copper ammo is crap for varmint control shit accuracy and to much noise. I shot rabbits for farmers and with that amount of noise it would be shot one watch the rest run down hole's.
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I wonder if the ammo manufacturers have tried copper plated bismuth. It's almost as dense as lead and fairly abundant. The main drawback is that it is brittle, so the copper coating would be necessary to hold the bullet together.
I put a couple of boxes of the Norma Eco Power through a semi auto and 22 RPR.. both were pants. 3" groups at 50yds with both rifles, 5" groups at 90yds. Not tried the Eco Speed but would suspect similar results. You're completely right, most guns are rifled for Subsonic but with the added noise factor with these Hyper Velocity 22lr rounds, we may as well use a 17HMR or WSM.
By thr way, I'm bringing a toy over to play with.. 🙈
Oh please do sir...
Totally agree it’s just not what 22 ammo is about the noise was horrific as well fare test 👍
Cheers buddy.. I won't be swapping from subs anytime soon lol
Are the ecospeed-22 suitable for Mark IV 22/45 lites?
So awesome to finally have 100% lead free .22!
I’ve shot these in my Ruger American 22 and couldn’t hit a 8 in plate at my zero distance. Put them on paper and got a 6 in group at 30 yards where Cci stingers and mini mags are roughly 1/2 inch groups.
Made a comment on the FSC fieldtester , a long one in fact. Silence is golden with .22 subs as far as I am concerned . If it cracks might as well use .17HMR if a ’green’ round is wanted .is there one! not looked into that.
I believe they have made a green .17hmr... But ref .22 I completely agree silence is the better option.. After all that's why we have them for stealthy rabbiting.
@@Baileysshooting hi Jon , thanks for the info on the green .17hmr. On the subject of ‘green’. Again i would like to thank you donating the prize of one ‘green coloured” Shooterking outfit back at 2019/20 to FS Britain and for the support you gave them . It was after winning this outfit in the draw that I started watching your very informative videos. This has done me proud while beating through out the winter months here in East Kent and while on the MOD ranges at Hythe and Lydd where I regularly shoot (Oyster Rifle Club). It can get a bit chilly there by the English Channel.
Regards Perry
PS I am also the the secretary of Oyster R C
Hopefully Jon they will make better ammo that stays subsonic in the future.
I hope so they need to figure a way to add more weight
I understand WHY you made this comparison but it is a bit unfair. Subsonic ammo with a zeroed scope will always have an advantage at the range because of the mass, geometric, BC, and inherent advantages to the subsonic regime. On the other hand, a "good enough" supersonic / high-velocity round can be useful for hunting where the flatter trajectory can increase your useful range interval for a specific scope setup and the higher velocity can also improve energy transfer to the target. I think a better comparison might be between the lead-free norma ammo and a high-velocity lead round like CCI's Velocitor.
All of that said, we are in complete agreement on the need for a lead-free subsonic round. While I live in a state that does not restrict ammo, I don't want to foul my yard with lead since it will inevitably end up in my chickens (and subsequently my eggs), or it could end up in my garden if I use it for rabbit control. Currently I use this Norma ammo for rabbit control (which I guess has youtube recommending these videos) and I keep target practice and scope setup work to the minimum out of consideration of my neighbors.
I think the barrel manufacturers need to begin experimenting with rifling twists, and find a rate that works well with non toxic lightweight bullets.
Green mountain makes a 1:18 twist barrel optimized for stingers. They come out at a similar velocity and have pretty similar projectile weights. Might work decent for it
surely if they made a longer bullet and used a slower burner powder they would achieve the same results as standard velocity lead cartridges I’ve tried out lead free pellets and while accurate they loose energy fast and are dangerous and very prone to ricochets
Bit late but what i have learned about lead free 22lr it is not that simple. Do you think manufacturers havent tried those
longer bullets ? Copper is mostly okay metal for ammo but it needs gun designed around it not otherway around like
we are now trying to do. 1/16 rifling as typical 22lr is just too mild for faster and lighter projectiles what our norma stuff is now.
And if we go longer to achieve subsonic there is literally no room for gunpowder or no safe load without exceeding
champer tolerances to give that long hunk of copper enought speed. And again that projectile would be about 1/3 longer
than your typical 22lr bullet so again 1/16 rifling will not stabilise it.
Short versio small case and 1/16 rifling just arent made to shoot anything else than lead.
Good luck to trying get somehow acceptable perfomance at 100 meters from other than lead projectile.
Edit: Tungsten core inside of copper bullet would give enought weight to match similiar shape and perfomance
as lead have now. But i dont think that is even close to be real solution because very simple other
reasons...
With all that noise and inaccuracy I will pick up my Anshutz 1517 before my Voltquarten 10/22 if that is the only ammo available going forward
Yup I feel the same way about it bud.
What is the stock on the 455 mate I’ve been thinking of changing my thumb hole stock on my 455 hmr
Its the Dolphin gun works chassis we supply them in the shop
So not ideal then by the looks ? Is it badly made , wrong twist in your gun ?? What do you think ? Does not look great does it ?
Just too light and too fast buddy
@@Baileysshooting thought so. Maybe a better twist would work then ?
Possibly
.22 is all about being quite and I will not use anything else in my cz , because I can't get the amo I have bought a very expensive .25 air rifle, but that said , I really am enjoying the air gun 😁 👍 day time 177 hmr , night time for the quiet , the new air gun 😁
@@colinstubbs8734 I absolutely agree.. biggest issue is if they are moving over to none toxic they need to solve the weight issue so they run in existing rifles.
Sub Sonic vs hyper Sonic what is exactly your point ? I don't buy hyper Sonic for long range ... Heavy downrange ... light up close. Great way to waste ammo though.
My exact point is that manufacturers need to produce a heavier Subsonic none toxic round for the UK that can remain accurate.. at the present moment in time they can't gain the weight required to maintain this.. And in the UK we rely on Subsonic far more than spitting rounds out at 1700 fps..
I have tried every lead free .22 lr ammo available in my country and they were all horrible. I must use lead free ammo when hunting and don't know what to do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm jumping to 22mag or 17hmr for the same reason. Can't use lead for hunting and any no lead 22 options I've tried also shoot terrible.
Just can't decide which round has better no lead options.
Complete shite aren't they!
Hopefully the non-toxic ammo won't apply to .22lr 17hmr or 'air'. If it does, you may as well look at ditching the calibres.
Lol... stock up on it whilst it's around and keep it in a nice stable environment... and don't share it 🤣
They will always produce lead rounds for normal varminting.. its only for animals going into the food chain
@@Baileysshooting lol... you would hope so wouldn't you.
I've accepted the change to steel shot and likewise to copper for deer. I'm all for 'reasonable' change if it helps improve our image etc.
Cheers for the info as always. By the way... will you be putting on a stand at the British Shooting Show in Feb 22?
No worries at all... And yes we will be at the British shooting show.. We are also doing the target shooting show the end of November
Only thing about UK you can have 1000 rounds on you at any time so we can't bulk buy before ban comes in .
All this HV copper ammo is crap for varmint control shit accuracy and to much noise. I shot rabbits for farmers and with that amount of noise it would be shot one watch the rest run down hole's.
We know matey that's why we are fighting the lead ban