Don't worry, I have a lot more videos on bicycle gearboxes and belt drivetrains for you to watch! 🤌🏻 Rohloff hub vs Pinion gearbox --- th-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/w-d-xo.html Belts are the best drivetrain available! --- th-cam.com/video/8SKeQ6B2UTk/w-d-xo.html Effigear Mimic Transmission --- th-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/w-d-xo.html Shaft drive bicycle drivetrains --- th-cam.com/video/eimLIkJaNFM/w-d-xo.html
chain drive with derailleur can give a person 3 x 10 drivetrain and is lighter than rohloff and pinion. belt drive damns a person to a gear hub which is a watts slower than a derailleur and the belt also adds a watt. combine with disc brakes and you are liable to be passed/droped by a 700$ hybrid. there is bike jewlery, there is what works best and then there is rohloff for sandy situations. i suspect with the right lubricant and breaking in a alfine can meet the effectcy of a rohloff and not need the authorized locations for service without voiding warranty.
Alee! Where are you? It looks like you made it back to Australia. Your fans, I'm sure, would love an update on your change of trajectory. Should we expect one soon? Hope you are well and happy.
@@Goodman-4525 you dont want to save energy when communting? you rather... "change gears while stopped?" but the crying smillyface though... it makes me feel dejected,, i guess you won the arguement you created.
Great video! You pretty much nailed it. The Alfine 8 is the one I've been using on my touring bike for 10 years now, in SE Asia. I use it every day, and with heavy luggage. It has NEVER failed me. There is however a problem with maintenance and repair, since very few shops here know how to service them, and parts like the gear changer and rear sprocket have to be ordered from abroad. Here is a tip: I've found an expert repair guy in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, at "Saigon Bike Shop", Mr Van. He re-built my wheel after a crash three years ago, and at the same time took the hub apart and re-greased it. Excellent! I especially prefer the 8-speed over the 11-speed, because of it's reliability and flawless performance over many years.
A much appreciated video. I'm a bike shop manager and I'll be recommending several of my customers watch it and quit doubting me when I tell them that the Alfine will work fine for them.
They're awful. I've got a Sturmey Archey 8 speed in my cargo bike that never wore in. So it doesn't go anywhere near hills, and I just put up with the skipping whenever I need to cart something. And I got my shop to convert my commuter to Alfine 11 speed di2. It somehow did 8000km before I finally gave up - the shop got Shimano to replace the internals once at about 1500km if I understand my strava logs correctly. The locknuts never actually locked properly when torqued to spec, and I learnt not to trust it on hills (which was my commute) and carry a big-arse socket ratchet around with me everywhere I went, nor could I trust it very far away from train lines that could get me back home. The forums are full of people saying "I've talked to the Shimano engineers and they said it was never designed for actual cyclists with proper leg strength - it was only ever meant to go into city e-bikes".
I had no idea. It's great to learn that this technology has evolved & is probably more pop than ever. I was heavy into the Shimano three speed back in the day. I am referring to 1977 to '81 & beyond. I collected a whole bunch of hubs after I had one apart and figured out what made it tick. Local bike shop was able to get replacement parts as well. Those were the days. I also inspired a good friend of mine to become an enthusiast. "Oh your hub". 😃😁😂
I love my Alfine - as an all-weather commuter it has not let me down. And as for its longevity, I got 10 years / 20,000 km out of my first one, with no internal maintenance at all.
love it too .got the old grease filled 8G. cleaned an regreased it last year after about 7-8years and couldnt find anything to worry about. its not good for uphills, thats the only thing and grease is getting a bit stiffer at really low temps but thats peanuts. bike could be covered in sand and mud and still no worries. never bought fenders and used it almost any day the last years in any weather. still first shift cable^^ i wouldnt use it for travelling with heavy loads due to the high gear ratio.
I ran since about 11 years the Alfine 8 as a daily commuter, since 9 years (when I moved from Europe) through rough Montreal winters. All problems I ever had were due to cabeling (frozen slush...), and I am on my 2nd shifter, the first broke last autumn. Love it! Now, my new bike (built all by myself, a Soma Wolverine) got an Alfine 11 Di2. Less problems in winter! I still had some gear slipping in winter, but much less trouble then with the cable, now with the warm weather it went back to normal without me doing anything. Maybe the temp change had changed some tolerances and I might need to look for a best working "winter calibration". And yes, Di2 allows me to use drop bar hydro levers! I hide the Di2 battery inside the fork steerer, with the Shimano/Pro special stems which allow this... Now at around 3k km. Love the Alfine! Ah, and the cargo bike runs a Nexus 8, so technically I have 3 of those hubs. Before that, I used most of my live old 3 gear internal hubs, so I new I love IGHs in the city!
I really want to thank you for the amount of time you take out of your life to make these videos. Things like this hub put me right to sleep if I read about them. You talking about them is so much easier. You are not a salesman at a store, you actually ride all over fuck and back, which is invaluable to me when you speak about these products. You never ever "pimp" anything, leaving us to make up our minds based on the info you have given us. Thank you so much.
Wow! 8 & 11 gears. I remember when my 3 speed hub was the bee's knees. Then I went to 10 speed derailleur. That was a huge step up. But it wasn't very crash proof. Still you could limp home.... unless the derailleur went into the spokes.....one became adept at respoking. Love it!
You make a good point! As my cogs have increased since the 7 speed cassette I used as a teen so has the chance of damaging my rear derailleur & fame etc.
I just realised that my dad's 40-year old bike has a 3-speed internal gear hub. I'd always wondered, as a kid, how his gears worked without the traditional derailleur that other bikes had. Not sure who the manufacturer is, though...
i love alfine hubs i used one on for a mountain bike for three years without servicing and ran a pretty low gear and would constantly kick my pedals to do mountain bike things as well as intentionally trying to make it fail it definitely became sloppier in gear lash but i never had an internal failure. the largest issue i had during that time was breaking cable ends on the hub side due to chunky mud getting into the cable management section of the hub. eventually i sheared the cog on the outside but the internals were fine.
You've produced the best assessment of bike gearing that I can recall, and I've done very extensive research on this subject for decades. Note that I've designed & built various bicycle transmissions since hybridizing a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed with a 15-speed derailleur for (likely) the first 45-speed in 1963! My other systems include: a 67-speed, an 81-speed, a 378-speed, a rolling-traction CVT, a ratcheting CVT, and a ratcheting IVT, all as functioning prototypes (except the IVT needed re-design for bike mounting). Decades of pedaling my 200+ pounds up & down steep slopes in the Santa Cruz Mountains made this a mission for me! Recent trends toward serious enduro, downhill and EMTB riding have pushed the market into pricing that now justifies my revival of my IVT invention (see my YT channel), reconfigured for front-mount and 1kW+ power throughput. Concerns about efficiency, torque, power & durability that you highlight here have been my longstanding priorities; so I'm redesigning my 'SIVAT' to fit with intense attention to all component specs; by far, the most difficult project of my engineering career! My goal is to create a bike transmission worthy of both the MTB/EMTB enthusiasts *and* long-distance cross-country riders, flavored accordingly. As for your excellent analysis, I'm compelled to correct you on your use of the term 'gear-ratio'. It's a common mistake that we use the term 'low-gears' for steep ascents; the 'gear-ratio' is an engineering term that is input *speed* divided by output *speed* in RPM; so gear-ratio actually means the *inverse* of the colloquial use, i.e., steep climbs need *high* gear ratios! BTW, my SIVAT has an infinitely high-gear-ratio limit that no uphill will defeat! It may seem counter-intuitive that such intense mechanical advantage won't break parts, but both some mechanical wizardry and an intrinsic fail-safe will accomplish that with smooth efficiency! *This* time, I mean business! Wish me luck!
So to clear up, what is a high gear ratio in your understanding? From what I have read (which could be wrong) a low 0.9:1 is for climbing and something like 4:1 is for speed.
I understand your angst about the high/low gear vs. high/low gear "ratio". But common use of first, second, third, etc. gear is the order one shifts in starting out, particularly in an automobile or motorcycle. Thus, in common parlance the lower gear is the higher ratio. I don't think you can call it a mistake when the vast majority of us understood what is meant. Now, let's talk about my childhood friend's family who used to say, "open the light" when they were closing the switch and, "close the light" when they were opening the switch. As a teenager I understood enough electronics for their terminology to grate on me, even though I understood what they meant.
@@eca7773 I think a low ratio is 1:1 and is good for the flat terrain (the old one speeds in the Netherlands) and high ratio lets you pedal eg. 4 times around for once around for the wheel as 4:1. So high gear for speed is low ratio and vice versa, put it into low gear for the high ratio and the hill.
@@eca7773 it is true that with the word “ratio” it changes the context of the conversation about gear talk, and correctly , but most humans think of the simple analogy of just like driving a car and selecting 1st gear or low gear to take off from the lights , taking off in the 1 st gear in most peoples minds will always be low gear , even if numerically ist gear has the biggest number of teeth on it. .
Outstanding video, Alee. Sincere thanks for sharing your wisdom. I've had an Alfine 8 for a couple of years and am very pleased with it so far. I do feel after watching this video that at one point I left the bike a little too long in need of a gear cable adjustment. Hopefully it didn't damage the hub too much. At the moment it's fine.
Nice comparison video. Thanks. My first decent tour with the 11 speed Alfine/Di2 system was from Canada to Mexico along the US Pacific Coast. Not a single problem with it. I've learned it does leak more oil when not laid down. Always upright seems to lessen the oil leakage. Using the Rohloff Oil Change kit works well on it yearly and it's fine for long distances with very light loads.
Riding an alfine 8 for over a year now, 15k km so far, I'm loving it. I will one day propably go for a rohloff for extra gear range, but alfine is a beast for the price. Love the indepth, informative and objective video, cheers!
Love your channel Sir. One thing you missed out...you can buy an Alfine chain tensioner (looks like a rear derailleur with a short cage and jockey wheels but with no mechanism) and then use a front derailleur and double chain ring...obviously giving you a massively increased gear range.
I have a folding Dahon bike that I used to ride through London. It has an 8 speed derailleur and a 3 speed Shimano hub. I loved it because it has the flexibility of an overall wide range but the best aspect was the instant ratio change from the hub. Moreso if there was a requirement to stop suddenly, a flick of the hub selector while stationary would give a starting gear, maybe not optimal depending on where the chain was on the rear cassette but always something that you could start with. Unlike a full derailleur where you need to be moving to drop gears. That alone made it awesome in unpredictable traffic.
My first proper bike had a Stermey-Archer and I have no idea how many miles I used it for but it would have been loads. 20 miles a day for probably 5 years at least. Not a peep out of it.
WOW... I had no idea who advanced bicycle technology has come in the past 45 years. These are really neat, especially the short moment you covered the E-bike or electric bicycle conversion set up. This was a very well put together video, exceptionally great pictures and cut-away drawings to help me understand what you were explaining with the planetary gear sets. Really clever stuff, now I want one, just to try it. I actually want to buy a regular bicycle with the derailer system, and run that for a while, get used to how that feels, then change it over to one of these (the cheaper unit to start with) and compare. I am actually rev'd up having seen this stuff.. I am shopping for a bicycle, "Doctor's orders" to get my heart stronger, and upon being overwhelmed in the on-line sales dept area, I thought i best get educated upon what all is out there, and more over, WHAT NOT TO GET. I suppose that is trauma from when I was a child, and a lessor quality bike frame snapped at the neck area welds, at a fairly high speed, (for me that is) approx 10 to 15 mph, and was slightly down hill. The resulting injury's messed me up pretty good, in fact, the hospital assumed I was hit and run over by a car. broken clavicle, sternum departed from the whole right side of rib cage, right and left side broken ribs, neck and back issues, 300 plus stitches in my body, 14 months of physical therapy. So, I would like to by something a wee bit safer then a cheap Sear & Roebuck Chinese built hobby hazard. Thank you for putting the effort into this wonderfully informative video. If I am required to get a bicycle, might as well get something that intrigues me. Thank you.
I thought I knew a lot about bikes until I saw this brilliant presentation about internal hubs. I was living in the old 3-speed world, now I'll be on the lookout for one of these Shimano hub bikes.
I put a Shimano 7-speed hub on my wife's bike. It already had a double chainring on the crank, so we added a chain tensioner to pick up the slack in the smaller chainring. This gave us a decent gear range but maintained the simplicity of a hub in the back.
@@Varue discs for Rohloff’s have been readily available for over 20 years. I wouldn’t worry about wacky rohloff discs in terms of parts availability. Internal parts and proprietary cogs are a bigger factor - but not insurmountable issue. Rohloff has been making the speedhub14 for over 2 decades with a good track record of performance, parts availability and low headaches.
@@spoxehub A centerlock brake disc is still much easier to source than whatever proprietary thing Rohloff peddles, nevermind a 6-bolt if you get an adapter.
Fascinating, educational and detailed video. I knew nothing about these, having been a D- man for 50 yrs. Your teaching cadence and explanations are beyond good. I learnt a lot. Thank you very much.
I learn so much every time you release a new instructional or review video, Alee - thank you for your very professionally-produced content! I rode an Alfine 8-speed for a couple of years (on a Cotic Roadrat) and reduced the gearing to below 20" without any noticeable issues - but I only weigh 65kg. Very helpful table you have provided for recommended low gearing dependent on body weight. I recently took possession of a brand new Rohloff-equipped fully rigid adventure bike, which I love. I was given the opportunity to have it with a used Rohloff (about 1,000 miles), which was a cost saving and also meant it had already been run in somewhat. I often wish I had kept the Alfine-equipped Roadrat as a grocery-getter, and your video only confirms how daft I was to sell it on!
Great video and I have to agree with everything you've said here. I live where it's pretty flat (Chicago, Illinois USA), and I've come to LOVE the Alfine 8 speed hubs. I used them on all of my bikes for a while, having the SG-S7001 model on a couple bikes, and an older (low normal shifting), SG-S501 which I used on a cargo bike paired with a Bafang BBSHD mid-drive motor. My greatest advice to anyone purchasing a newer Alfine 8 speed hub would be to open it up, pack it marine grade grease, and inject some Phil Wood Tenacious Oil to prevent water infiltration. I had one Alfine 8 pack it in in less than six months because water got inside and the resulting grit/wear turned the bearing races into a pitted (probably unrepairable), mess. I also own a Rohloff and NEVER thought I'd spend $1500 on a geared hub, but I was building a recumbent tandem trike which got the BBSHD motor from my old cargo bike. The Rohloff is the ONLY geared hub that can withstand the torque input of two riders and a mid-drive motor. That being said, it's a great piece of engineering but it's certainly WAY more noisy than my Alfine hubs. I've had derailleur drivetrains for over 35+ years of riding and when I tried out geared hubs a few years ago I decided I was NEVER going back. Lower maintenance, less noise, and far greater durability and no worries about bent derailleur hangers or destroyed derailleurs.
Have never tried internal hubs and now am seriously thinking of getting one once I've decided to fully restore my old 3X 90's bike. Super informative! Tops!
That was a great sumup of the Shimano Alfine range. I myself am a big fan of the 11 speed hub and I used it for some rather extensive touring (Japan and New zealand). I'm aware of the limited gear range issue, but I worked around it by using a double chainring in the front (32-44 I believe). That way I could stay on the big ring most of the time and not worry about torque at all. If the hills got steeper I'd use the small ring and just concentrate on smooth torque output and not any sprint attempts :) What wore down is the shifter from microshift.. This was the only way to combine dropbard with the alfine 11 back then. By now I switched to DI2.. this allows for the use of original shimano shifters and also hydraulic brakes, which is a whole different feeling :) One note.. when flying, always carry some spare oil as the pressure difference combined with the bike lying down usually makes the oil leak quite a bit.. Sadly the automatic shifting feature only works with the alfine 8 and 5 DI2, not the 11-speed.. I suspect this is due to the torque issues... Nevertheless.. great video!
Amazingly informative. You answered every question I had about internal gears and using these with electric motors. You also answered the hill climbing chore I have with my 7-speed Brilliant L-Train.
Right on spot... However: after cycling Alfine 11 / Nexus 8 for about 8k and now Rohloff for about 9k I will stick to Rohloff... despite its ridiculous price tag (not that much of issue for me, bought used bike with R14 and picked it out) Alfine 11 might appear comparable on paper but the lack of low gears and lower efficiency becomes *way* more pronounced then the numbers suggest... In fact driving my R14 and A11 bikes back-to-back makes me always look for defect brake or other energy wasters Having said that: Alfine line is great value for price and suitable for lot of cyclist
@@d.k.7710 the price tag of the Alfine is ridiculous! You can't make something like a precision hub for that price without going to a low wages country where workers have few rights! Shimano makes excellent hubs, but you must not compare the price to a product wich is made by a worker who makes a decent living, insurance and retirement fund.
@@joramvandervorst7715 surely true, but at the end any potential customer will make his decision strongly dependent on the price. Secondly: 199$ goes best case for Alfine 8, feels more like Nexus 8, which is way worse and cheaper. Alfine 11 starts at lower 400$.... Do You have any closer informations on the production condition / area of Shimano hubs?
Except Shimano's QA is crap, we had to replace ours three times before we got a working one. That's not including they sent us the wrong parts twice. On top of that if you have more than one gear up front you will need the Alfine chain tensioner.
I have a Nexus 8. It works pretty well, but the trigger shifters don't allow downshift-dumping as one can do with a derailleur drivetrain, and the twist-shifters that do allow downshift-dumping are known for being less accurate. Also, I wish it were fully sealed so oil wouldn't leak out past the hub bearings when the bike is laid-down on its side. I know Nexus hubs are supposed to be greased, not oiled, but lots of people run oil instead because it protects against rust and doesn't gum-up. Alfine hubs are fully sealed, but they aren't compatible with the roller brakes on my bike. As for the lack of ultra-low climbing gears, I fixed that by pairing it with a 2-speed crankset with 42t and 26t chainrings. Granny-gear on my bike is quite useful.
Does the two speed crankset require a derailleur? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of using a hub gear? Genuinely curious because I want to get a hub gear for my bike but am concerned about the lack of climbing gears
This is a great video and good coverage of the topic. I've been using the 11 speed on a long john cargo bike and over torquing it. I think it was 2014 or 2015 when I did it. And I used it a LOT (like 5-6 trips a day often) carrying kids and lots of overloading cargo for about 5 years. Since then I only use it sporadically. It has held up fine. I was always scared about breaking it with the torque because I did that with a 2009 Sturmey Archer 8 sp (broke it) But the shimano has held up much better. I was slipping gears at one point and was worried I had broke it but actually it was just worn chain and cogs, replaced that and fixed. I only did the oil once, because it is a bit intimidating when you haven't done a lot of IG overhauls and also when you need to use it daily. When i did I took it all apart convinced i would find wear from riding it a lot with dirty cables. It was actually pretty clean inside and still well lubricated. I chose to go cheap and use a car transmission oil which ended up being a lot thinner and leaking more, but it still has worked fine. Also i live in a very hilly place and I can't stand the high gear ratios that most people tolerate, I need to spin on hills and will always build bikes that way. For reference, my brand new schwalbe marathon tires were wearing out on the sidewalls from the heavy loads when my kids got big, in only 1-2months. I had to switch to marathon plus. But the hub never complained. So my advice is that I think it could be fine for most touring, maybe not around the globe but that is a special case. However, I do think your price comparison is a big unfair. I've never bought or sold a rohloff but I think they come fairly complete. In contrast Shimano makes their price seem artificially low by making the shifter and cog and cable parts all as extra costs. When I bought it it was about $>900CAD even though the hub by itself was $5~600. I don't think it's fair to compare if rohloff is including a shifter. I think the 2 cable setup of rohloff deserves some brief mention. Also, I like the many sweet pictures of English frames. I met that guy in 2009. Glad to see he is doing so well. Great bikes. Thanks for the video
My 8 speed Alfine is 17k kilometres old, had no servicing and presented zero issues. Im only on my second set of sprockets and 4th chain. I will neve use anything else. Excellent video.
Thank you for this great video. I'm on my second 8 speed Alfine hub. The first one got submerged and froze up. After seeing your video, I would consider the 11 Speed Di2 because of the increased range and the precision shifting. Also, I really appreciated your perspective on maintenance.
I've had a Rohloff hub on my bikes for the past 20 years. Over 20 years that is only £50 a year (assuming you stick with the same hub - I did get the electronic shifting Rohloff and sold my old one with my last upgrade, so this is Rohloss #2 - or #3 if you count the one on my wife's bike). But £1000 is a hell of a steep ask upfront especially as the bikes that take them also end up being on the premium end, so maybe if I was coming at it green, Alfine would be my first choice. Now, if would feel like a step backward, so it's Rohloff for life, I guess.
The nice thing about hubs is, you can install them on pretty much every bike that can fit the axles. So let's say you want a new bike, but don't want to spend on the Rohloff again, just get it with a Nexus 7/8 or Alfine 8 and switch the rearwheel. Put the Shimano wheel on eBay or something and you got your next two Rohloff services covered. But even both Alfine options (8/11) are damn solid.
I did bicycle touring with a Shimano Nexus 8 Premium on a Cannondale Bad Boy. As you said, going uphill was very difficult. After 20 years of use, the frame cracked, but the hub still works...
Yes, the Nexus hubs seem pretty bulletproof. I have a 3-speed on my city bike that I’ve torqued the heck out of for a few years (climbing hills in the lowest gear) and I’ve not had a single issue.
to be fair, the video showed Shimano placing this products under the "urban" category (or something similar to that). So, it'd be unfair to judge it outside of its specs. Still, relevant info about them, glad it was mentioned here.
I have been interested in these drive-train options, especially with a belt, for some time. I am so happy that I came upon this video. It is an excellent explanation on how IGHs work and the advantages and disadvantages in using them. I have watched many "how-to" and "explanation" TH-cam videos on many subjects, this particular video has to be among the best produced that I have seen...very well done. 👍
I first saw the Shimano gear hubs in Japan in the late 90s and I've always been interested in building a touring bike around a geared hub. Ideally I'd combine the hub with the belt drivetrain.
I had an Alfine 8 fail on me in Bolivia in 2016...switched back to derailleur gearing. the Alfine was super sensitive to cable adjustments to the point that i started cleaning and relubricating the cable every couple weeks of touring. I was running a lower than recommended gear ratio...but as you point out, you kind of have to in order to make the hub work for touring. I definitely would recommend the hub for a city bike or around town bike, especially as it seems both versions have gotten durability improvements since I had mine.
We have made 35'000 km on a tandem with Nexus/Alfine 8. Now we are approaching 20'000km with a standard 3x9 XT drivetrain. Since the availability of the 3x9 groups is going to be an issue (or even a big problem for tandems with a left-hand side timing chain setup), we will probably consider an electronic Alfine 11 in a few years.
The efficiency comparison has to take into account the gear you’re in. In gear 11 on a Rohloff the hub is locked up and so there is no power lost in the hub- its as efficient as a fixie- as efficient as any bike drive train can be. There’s probably an equivalent for other hubs. When you set up your bike you ensure that the gearage inches- distance travelled per crank revolution, allows you to cruise in gear 11 most of the time.
according to fahrrad zukunft's testing the rohloff has the highest efficiency(very close to a single speed) in gear 8 for some reason and due to its design 4(low range direct drive) and 11(high range direct drive) have second and third highest efficiency
Great video, one instantly gets the feeling that you really know what you're talking about. Honest pro's and con's for all 3 systems made me sure to stay with my bike as is. The 8 speed version is not sufficient, 11 gears with that ratio sound great but the failure chance frightens me and the roloff is clearly out of budget.
My Nexus 8 has held up pretty well for more than 30.000 km. The grease has been changed regularly. After some repairs over the last years it now seems to be on the way out. According to my mechanic the Nexus hubs are built for 20000 km and wear is visible on the teeth. The noise and vibrations have significantly increased over the last months. Overall, I still am pretty impressed.
Ive got an 8 speed Shimano on my 20 year old Giant courier bike with never a service . Still changes like it always has, smoothly , its just a nexus too , I would like to put an 11 speed Alfina hub on my Trek Checkpoint gravel bike which really only gets paddock use not mud as I use it just to ride to the beach on quiet back roads and small trails
Years ago I owned a Trek 7100 and when the 7spd cassette wore out, I installed a Nexus 8 IGH. Needed a chain tensioner but otherwise it was a direct replacement. Worked beautifully for a number of years. When it broke, it would refuse to shift into certain gears or skip around. These are cool, but for a casual rider a derailleur and cassette are still better if, for no other reason, they are easier and cheaper to maintain. Heavy duty commuters who don’t mind spending extra will love the IGH.
Your wording doesn’t make sense. You always need a hub and either a chain or belt. Belt specific frames are a bit more expensive. I ride a single speed to work, and that’s my no-brainer. A Shimano freewheel is around 20-25 dollar around here. No idea where to find a good quality 3 dollar freewheel as suggested in the video.
I have a shimano Alfine 8 speed on my commuterbike (that has to stand outside everyday), it came on a Decathlon Elops 920 speed, awesome value for money, I do wish it had a belt drive but I guess that would hike up the price a lot. I haven't had any problems with it and as it stands outside everyday it sees a lot of rain/cold/heat/... I clean it about once every 4-6 months.
So Glad I stopped by - What a Great Review of Tech rarely seen. While visiting in Sweden a few moons back in winter, I did a full reman on a 20" folding with 2 speed internal shift hub, where you back stepped the pedal to shift up or down. It actually worked quite well after I modified gearing for the steep hills required in 4-6" of snow. Oh yes, the winter tires took two weeks to get them. But they really worked well, where even the neighbor would shout out to try to get me to stop riding it in deep snow,, to offer me a ride in stead in 4 wheel drive. Quite a comical event where I always said no thanks. I was having too much fun darnit... But I have no memory who made that hub - it wouldn't surprise me if it was Rohloff. Cheers
I've been using a Rohloff mated to a Bafang 1000W BBSHD since 2018. Gets the job done and hasn't failed me yet on my Catrike Expedition. However, I'd definitely now looking into an Alfine as a secondary IGH solution for my Dahon Speed D7. I think blowing $1800 on a hub is good enough for one time. The $200ish price tag on the Alfine seems better for a folding bike I bought used for $100.
Great video, I love it! I bought a few months ago new city bike with the belt + internal Shimano-8 hub. I don't pack my bike, and ride in the Netherlands (no mountains, small hills). I am very happy about it, I surely do not want to change gear ratios or add anyone. It's all perfect as it is. I don't see any reason (yet) for the Shimano-11, Rohloff or Pinion.
As always, thanks for the excellent and informative video. You always lose me with the math behind the rations and gear inches, but I trust you. I've been using Alfine/Nexus hubs for the majority of my adult cycling life. I purchased a new Marin Fairfax bike in 2018 with a Nexus 8, and within 6 months of normal commuting in Vancouver area climate it was destroyed from water, the internals were very rusty and worn out. I guess I should have it regreased on day 1. Shimano came through though, after the dealers dropped the ball and failed to warranty anything. They setup me up with an Alfine 11, which has been fantastic and I appreciate the extra range. It is an SG-S700, I wasn't aware of the difference between it and the newer model, but I've seen little oil leakage. I switched to a Jtek bar-end shifter so I could use drop bars. I have mixed feelings here. Everyone seems to give these high marks. I think they are really nice when working because you can easily shift from one end to the other, but I believe they are poorly made / designed. The material wears rapidly as the ball bearing inside is rubbed against it during a shift, and this makes the indexing lose it's precision. I also had to replace one because it wore very fast and would jam from riding in the rain in a very short timeline. It is also large and heavy. A better designed bar end shifter would be fantastic. As for Nexus, I understand they were said to have different brake options, but they do also include disc brakes, so I'm not sure the difference between it and the Alfine 8. Someone spotted my bike and noticed the internal hub, when they realised it was an Alfine and not a Rholoff replied with very rude comments. From my experience the Alfine is an excellent hub and great value, and most people who experience problems are not maintaining the shifting indexing/adjustment correctly. A better shifter would resolve this. I've got gates CDX with 46/24, 30x700c and I do okay on most of the hills I encounter
Great video! I'm a tall heavy rider who prefers low gears so I'd probably be pushing the limitations of the Shimano hubs. My next touring bicycle will be one with a Rohloff hub.
If you want to buy/use the electronic shifting Alfine (11 or 8 speed) then be aware that Shimano have now discontinued both the gear display (SC-S705) and the button shifter for a flat bar (SW-S705 ). There are Shimano alternatives but not branded as Alfine. The gearshift of an Alfine 11 speed hub can move up or down 2 gears at once with a long push so you can shift through 4 gears with two pushes. The shifter of the 8 speed moves only one gear at a time.
I've had Alfine 8 speed for around 8 years and I loved it! Especially low maintenance. I traveled around 11 000 km and the only thing that broke was the shifter... and a bttom bracket after 9k km. When I was selling it even chain was still within acceptable limits. Currently I have a gravel bike with SRAM Apex / Rival mix and I'm on third chain (probably should be my fourth one, as first change was postponed too much), third bottom bracket, second cassette and second derailleur (switched to Rival as my Apex became quite wobbly) - and I just traveled around 8 000 km on it. And the cleaning... eh. I jus love internal hubs. There were two things that were significantly worse with my internal hub - lack of low speed gears (as you mentioned) and high speeds efficiency. High speed difference is not much, but with Apex / Rival it seems I can ride around 2km/h faster than with Alfine - but only when it's clean... and I have to clean it every two weeks. I cleaned my Alfine perhaps 2 times a year.
@@malaysiadentist4637 The answer is rather simple. I wanted to try something new - gravel bike - and in that matter I do not regret my choice. I was looking only to 1x options like my previous Alfine, but with a bigger gear range. Alfine 11 gravel bikes were not available (I'm not sure if there are broadly available even now), GRX wasn't released yet, so my only option was SRAM Apex. Pinion gearbox or Rohloff hub were more than twice my budget.
I have a 11 Speed Alfine a Rohloff and just got a 7 speed Kindernay. I am a big guy and break a lot of bike stuff, but the Alfine has held up really well. The first one I had did get replaced under warranty because the dealer thought it had a cracked flange - honestly I never saw it. The replacement has gone 3 or 4 thousand miles on my mid drive road bike with no real trouble. I did have some shifting issues several months ago and could feel some flex on the drive side - thought I had broken something. Ordered replacement internals, but once I got it all apart I think it was the nuts that hold the hub together working there way loose. i guess this is fairly common from comments online - fix is to retorque the inside nuts from time to time (basically like an old time cone washer). Alfine is much smoother than the Rohloff and I like the shifter feel better than the hydros on the Kindernay. For the price they are a great hub. Wish my frame could run a belt drive, that would make it perfect.
I'm curious about the cost for a belt-compatible frame, I can't find that locally. not sure about the Amazon/eBay stuff. I'd like to build/buy a commuting bike based on a gravel bike frame (I have a few hundreds meters of trail at the end of the road, and stuff always get caught between the frame and tyre/brakes), something inexpensive, I could get a new basic bike for 250 euros, paid 1000 for my now 25 years old road bike, is it possible to stay in these limits? The Cube Hyde mentioned in the article almost fits those points, but I can't find it in my area...
Great overview. I am a big fan of Rohloff and had 4 different bikes with a Rohloff hub, all sold to happy new customers. My new Cargo bike does not have a Rohloff hub but it will get one soon. Once you get used to the precise shifting of a Rohloff hub, there is no way back on a bike that is pushed to its limits like a heavy cargo bike. Still, I advised a friend not to switch to a Rohloff hub but instead get an Alfine 8. He would not take the expensive Rohloff on a trip to the shopping mall because he would be too afraid it got stolen. Especially in the flat land we live in (the Netherlands) the Alfine 8 is more than good enough for 99% of all bikes.
I’m surprised you don’t mention the option of combining an internal hub with multiple front sprockets. I’ve been using an Alfine 8 speed for a quite a few years, for daily commuting and for touring. My bike came with two sprockets on the front, allowing to have more gear ratio options, especially smaller gears for tourin gwhen you’re going uphill with a load. I’m very happy with this solution.
A really excellent and very helpful presentation - it's just a tad unfortunate that it leaves me, as a heavier rider with significant hills in every direction in an awkward position - but at least I'm no longer tempted by thoughts of cobbling together a super low range hybrid set up - and that's a load of tears saved! Thanks - specifically for laying out the rider weight issues so clearly. I doubt I would ever have gotten around to that.
Great video. Very informative and well presented. Been running an earlier 11 speed Alfine for riding to work (only 25km a day, Road bike on Fridays :) and it's been brilliant. Oil changes are easy and haven't had any leaks. I did break a carbon drive belt earlier on but nothing since. Once again, great video.
@@VidNibs I wouldn't worry about it too much. I snapped the first one sprinting off the lights and shifting as i was going. There must have been something wrong with it or it was damaged as i've probably broken 3 chains in my life of 4/cross, BMX and DH. The replacement Carbon Drive Belt has done about 2500 to 3000km with basically no maintenance since.
Great breakdown of issues and advantages making for a very useful video. Thank you for illuminating a dark spot in my bike gear knowledge. Critical point about the hill climbing ratios of the Rohloff vs the Alfine hubs points out one is great for flat land riding with small hills and the other is hands down better for touring. Good Job!
I had a single-speed Cannondale urban bike a few years ago, and added an Alfine hub purchased secondhand. A bit of fiddling with the eccentric bottom bracket and I was up and running. Terrific upgrade, although the reversed shifter action took a little getting used to.
Yes, I have one of those rapid-rise Alfines on my downhill bike. Shimano realized their error and corrected it. I can't even go between road and rapid rise trigger. It is just terrible unless every one of your bikes is rapid-rise (they shouldn't be).
This is really a high quality video with a lot of valuable information. As an owner of both systems (Rohloff and Shimano) in different bikes, I have still learned some interesting details. Thanks!
Just some additional information: My wife rides an e-bike with a Rohloff hub combined with an electronic(!) shifter and a belt drive. Maybe you overlooked this combination. The torque of the motor is automatically reduced for a fraction of a second during shifting to enable smoother gear shifting (via CAN bus). After a stop (i.e. at a traffic light) the hub switches automatically to a certain gear. Overall she is very happy with this setup. Fun fact: Rohloff resides in the village where I was born…
@@michaelbjornrasmussen414 Hi Michael, my wife rides a Stevens E14 Forma (she needs the open frame because of her new artificial hip joint - the more classic frame geometry is called "Gent"). My reply from yesterday wasn't published by youtube maybe because of the URL I've included. You'll find the bike at the "stevensbikes" homepage in the e-bike section. But be warned because of the hefty price tag...
This is the best hub review video I've seen. The only remaining question I had, was input on the hub would compare to a gearbox, but it appears you linked to a video on exactly that. Excellent work.
@4:02 Don't forget to mention that those 11 gears don't improve your "uphill battle." You either need reduction gears or simply a more highend gear hub for that like Pinion or Roloff Speedhub. Schlumpf Mountaindrive cost about 700 bucks in material only. @5:19 It is a smart thing to do to buy a complete wheel with those hubs. It is often cheaper. @9:38 ... but over 6 times the price and you cannot use reduction gears - at least officially. @14:32 Yes, but you could use reduction gears and even surpas the gear range of the Roloff. E. g. the Schlumpf Mountain drive adds additional reduced gears to the mix, even some that are too extreme to use.
Great Video. Just a random addon - the 5 gear Shimano hubs are paired with the Shimano Steps E6100 which delivers 60NM as well as the Boch Performance Line, delivering 65NM. The 8 gear hub is usually found only on bikes with motors that top out at 50NM as you correctly said.
I have an Alfine 11 speed on one of my bikes with a 39 tooth front chain ring. I found that the recommended 18 or 20 tooth rear cog FAR too high geared! You would have to be descending Mount Everest to use 10th and 11th gear. Luckily, a Nexus 23 tooth cog (despite what Shimano on Email said about compatibility) fits and works perfectly and gives me full use of all 11 gears.
Wow, I wish I knew why my experience was so different. I got somewhere around 3k miles into two Nexus 8 red band before they each failed in the same way - 4th started skipping. Never shifted under load - felt like I treated them very well. But given they're not serviceable the only option is to buy another. I also /hated/ that the big ratio gap is at exactly the wrong place - between 5th and 6th where you'd be cruising on the flat and wanting just the right ratio. I am a big fan of IGHs in principle, but I wasn't prepared to risk another short lived Shimano 8 and now my only IGH is a 3-speed city bike. Much worse ratio gaps of course but cheap, efficient, easily serviced and durable. I just think of it as a single-speed with bonus acceleration / climbing ratios. I'm 90kg with strong legs and urban stop-start riding, but I feel like they should be able to tolerate that.
Your video is the first and only video that covers up ALL hub gear aspects, so thank you! I use my alfine bike for travelling with heavy loads, only on paved roads but also over high mountain passes. The alfine 11 lasts in my bike approximately 20.000km. I have changed it twice yet. I think it is due to poor cable adjustment, but the alignment of the yellow marks is not really helpful. I can spin the cable 2-3 times and the yellow marks still align. The yellow marks are just not precise enough for a good alignment. Therefore I have gear slip every now and then until the alfine breaks again. Though it is still cheaper than a derailleur drive train from the service perspective, I think Shimano can do a better job with the alignment of the shifter cable. The actual hub is the 7001 and I hope it will last longer. I do not agree that there are not enough small gears. If the gears are too big four you, go for a bigger cog or a smaller chain ring. I don't think you would need to go for a smaller gear than 36. I personally use the 39/20 setup and I am fine with it. Ascents up to 18% are okay, above that I have to push the bike.
This is a great an very informative video. I generally agree with everything you said. I have a number of bikes, all are used in urban environment. My favourite for a stroll is the one with a nexus 3 speed hub. (Except when I want to go fast...) The biggest issue with hubs is that is not so easy to inspect it. When you have a derailleur and cassette you can very easy check the condition
You forgot to mention the fact that there are a lot more people using alfine than rohloff and that most people using alfine have no idea how to maintain or use a bicycle properly an that increases the quantity of people complaining about alfine failure
Now just put an enclosed chain guard around the chain, front and rear fenders over the wheels, a package carrier at the back, mount a lock to the frame, sweep back the handle bars, and give it an upright seating position, make the whole thing out of steel, and you have yourself a reliable Dutch bike.
Your videos are excellent. They give us all the information we'd want in a calm and efficient way, and are very good at answering the questions that people would redially ask. Well done. I've learned a lot.
Man I wish Shimano would come up with a touring hub. I really can't give up a single gear inch of my detailer Setup but i really want a belt drive too.
You could use something like the schlumpf high speed drive to extend your range. According zu their website newer models can be used with belt drives. Downside: it is expensive. But alfine+schlumpf might be cheaper than a rohloff oder kindernay. Not sure though.
@@kunstspielklavier185 I thought of this too but I think in the end it wouldn't be cheaper, all in. Also the weight. Would be cool to try. I know it has been done but I've never had a good look at that.
We have three bikes with Alfine 8 Di2 with Steps 6000, for like 6-7 years. They are simply fantastic. The electric shifting is very fast, zero maintenance, very precise.
Thank you Alee, this is super timely. I really want to upgrade my Yuba Supermarche cargo bike to a IGH and a Rohloff seems like overkill for a urban cargo bike. Information on these hubs are really hard to find online compared to Rohloff and you answered every question I had about Alfine. I would be interested in what you think about the Envolio hubs (formerly Nuvinci), I rode once once and it was kinda weird.
I have a Nuvinci 380 on an Evelo Orion ebike. When I got it I hadn't done a lot of riding in 5 or 6 years but had recently put around 100 miles or so on a Diamondback Wildwood. The inefficiency of the Nuvinci was immediately apparent. I don't hate the thing and pairing it with a mid drive ebike makes for a pretty good bike but I don't think I'd like it too much on a non-ebike... at least not for hilly Portland and an old, slightly out-of-shape rider!
Very few people understand the skill set needed to present information clearly. And that's before you add in the technical skills and time needed to successfully edit video. Kudos. Concise, comprehensive quality all the way. I have noticed that a lot of companies, like Gazelle for instance, are pairing their mid drive bikes with Nexus hubs. I like the Nexus 7 and 8 speed hubs for light commuting or errand running, but I wonder how well that pairing with mid-drive motors is going to work out.
Nice video: I'm also a fan of internal hubs. I have a Rohloff, luckily bought 2nd hand. But even new, if you need the range in gearing it offers, looking at overall total cost of a standard external system, over a period of 10 yeartsd, let's say, it still works out cheaper. Not even adding in the maintenance cost differences. As far as the "over-torque" argument, in terms of using low gears, I've always been dubious about that: at least as far as Rohloff is oncenerned, and I suspect the Alfine systems as well. Both of these systems have big safety factors in their design. If Shimano rates the hubs at 100N-m, I'd be pretty sure you could run them at least at 150N-m without serious issues. And if it DOES fail, well, so what? It's not going to be face-plant stuff, and unless you are in the middle of Outer Bongolistan, getting a replacement is not such a big deal. If you NEED the lower gearing to do the job, then switch. And remember, it's a TORQUE limit. So you need to compare the two cases properly: (1) using too high a gear that forces you to STAND on the pedals to get up the steel hill (and STANDING means a LOT of weight) versus (2) using a nice low gear you can SPIN up (and be sitting down). Remember: Torque = FORCE x moment-arm. Also remember what is CAUSING the torque. It's NOT you on the pedals that is in effect CAUSING it, it's you trying to go up a steep hill that causes it. This supposed "torque-limit" is not really an engineering restriction but rather more marketing based. The Alfine is aimed at the hybrid/commuting crowd, and it needs to be light to compete. As soon as you encourage users to use it for heavy-duty touring, with loaded bikes, and up steep gradients, you WILL strart to see some failures just from the more extreme cases where big/strong/heavily loaded tourers stood on the cranks to get up hills. And since that martket niche is very small, Shimano isn't going to design the hub to be as reliable/long-lasting in it because it will be a lot heavier, and mean it being less attractive to its main market: the commuter/hybrid crowd. But if you are a tourer, and don't want to spend $1,500 for a Rohloff, then it's still a good risk to spend $200 on an Alfine, even if it DOES wear out in a year or two. If you are a light rider, it will be more likely to last than a big guy.
I did a conversion of my Rohloff hub bike from the chain that was installed on it in the factory to a belt. When doing this conversion it became increasingly clear to me why it's such a costly hub: it's pretty awesome quality parts that you're dealing with. Still though the Alfine hubs have also had my attention and I actually considered getting a bike with the 11 speed Alfine hub before going for the Rohloff option.
Thanks for breaking it down. Currently running an Alfine 11 on one bike, with Gates Carbon drive - quietest bike ever. I used to have a Rohlhoff on a bike I built a long time ago, and I never liked the 2 full length cables not the throttle shifter, and clunky looking frame connect, that looks like a coaster brake. I would not say the 11 speed Alfine compares favorably to a derailleur based drivetrain on tough trails, but the Alfine is a really nice system. Easing pedaling power is the best advice!!
Although you’re right about a lot of subjects in this video, the difference in efficiency between basically all other IGH’s and the Rohloff is something you cannot put a price on. If you value speed and efficient power transfer, use a Rohloff. Yes it’s a little noisy, that’s what you get with straight cut gears, the diagonally cut gears of the Shimano’s kill the efficiency.. I’ve owned 6 or 7 different Rohloff bikes, I’m never going back to something else. My latest two bikes have Gates belts, now I never have to clean my bikes anymore, only riding them😊 (6000~8000km per year). 😊
Great video, thanks! Just a minor quibble about your “orders of magnitude” comment at 4:10 - one order of magnitude is 10X, two orders is 100x, three is 1000x, etc. so the difference between $400 and $1500, while large, is still well below one order of magnitude :)
I have an Alfine 8 on my trekking bike, re-greased it myself a few times, made sure to never shift under load, but after 7000 km it starts to act up (gears slipping, weird noise) despite being freshly oiled and adjusted. I think it is simply not made for high loads as produced by a heavy & "strong" rider. The gear jumps are an issue, I frequently wish for a gear between 5th and 6th as that jump is pretty high.
I am almost certain that your gears are just fine. I think this is something you can fix with adjusting the cable. Most bikes have an easy adjuster on the handlebars where the shifting cable comes out. Turn it a bit and your bike will run like new again. I have ridden 30.000 km's on one without any regard for its life apart from adjusting the cable and I only have problems now.
I had similar issues after the first "self-maintenance" of my Alfine 8 hub. The problem was, that the nut on the axle was not properly tightened, see here: th-cam.com/video/XGks14goow0/w-d-xo.html (at around 15:00 minutes). I was afraid to overtighten it, that led to some space, which allowed the internals to slip. I was able to fix it, and it's been running fine since. Maybe also consider letting it be checked by a bike shop. Good luck!
Just what I found. The jump from 5th to 6th gear on the Alfine 8 spd is a ridiculous 22%. It's like Shimano engineers missed out a whole gear. Anyway totally impossible to ride with a loaded bike in the flat and don't even consider it for the hills, hopeless!!!! So swapped the Alfine 8spd for a Rohloff hub after only 50 miles riding the Afline 8 and so pleased I did. The Rohloff hub is far far superior.
Well, there's a few good reasons why car manufacturers use transmissions with planetary gears ... But I'm good with my chain drive. The simplicity wins here imo. Nevertheless, very interesting summary that feels well balanced and informed. Thanks!
Simplicity comes in many forms. A planetary gearbox hub belt drive is simple in the sense that it is lower maintenance than a chain derailleur system. As mentioned in the video, one can use it for thousands of kilometers before it needs to be re-oil/re-greased. the belt lasts for thousands of kilometers too and required no lubrication. If the bike gets dropped, the chance of damaging the drivetrain is a lot lower. This is why such systems are used in commuter bikes. Partnering it with a compressionless cable housing will make it even work better.
Great video, really detailed and interesting. What's funny is I had a Sears 5 speed (with a straight shifter) when I was a lad - it had an internal 5 speed hub, and that was around 1975. Had that bike for years before I broke it in half off a ramp, but the hub never failed after years of "kid abuse"...
Those were probably all sturmey archer or shimano. Sturmey had good years and bad years. At it's best it was better than the shimano. Over time the shimano tended to get better and always be reliable. Hence, Shimano survives. Sturmey is a very interesting history of business mistakes.
Yes, hub gears used to be everywhere, and proved to be pretty sturdy in general. Kid's bikes had them for good reasons, as did a great many utilitarian and commuting bikes. Derailleurs certainly have their place, but they have many drawbacks.
Shimano Alfine with belt drive and disc brakes = the perfect commuter bike. 11 years and going strong with the only maintenance was the first oil change (to clean metal splints etc) and a couple of tire changes.
Don't worry, I have a lot more videos on bicycle gearboxes and belt drivetrains for you to watch! 🤌🏻
Rohloff hub vs Pinion gearbox --- th-cam.com/video/W_hx4V9mYuw/w-d-xo.html
Belts are the best drivetrain available! --- th-cam.com/video/8SKeQ6B2UTk/w-d-xo.html
Effigear Mimic Transmission --- th-cam.com/video/F08bDBK7U7A/w-d-xo.html
Shaft drive bicycle drivetrains --- th-cam.com/video/eimLIkJaNFM/w-d-xo.html
chain drive with derailleur can give a person 3 x 10 drivetrain and is lighter than rohloff and pinion. belt drive damns a person to a gear hub which is a watts slower than a derailleur and the belt also adds a watt. combine with disc brakes and you are liable to be passed/droped by a 700$ hybrid.
there is bike jewlery, there is what works best and then there is rohloff for sandy situations. i suspect with the right lubricant and breaking in a alfine can meet the effectcy of a rohloff and not need the authorized locations for service without voiding warranty.
Alee! Where are you? It looks like you made it back to Australia. Your fans, I'm sure, would love an update on your change of trajectory. Should we expect one soon? Hope you are well and happy.
Love my pinion 12 speed!
@@chrisprice5806 clearly anyone riding on geared hubs aren't looking to go fast😂
@@Goodman-4525 you dont want to save energy when communting? you rather... "change gears while stopped?"
but the crying smillyface though... it makes me feel dejected,, i guess you won the arguement you created.
Great video! You pretty much nailed it.
The Alfine 8 is the one I've been using on my touring bike for 10 years now, in SE Asia.
I use it every day, and with heavy luggage. It has NEVER failed me.
There is however a problem with maintenance and repair, since very few shops here know how to service them, and parts like the gear changer and rear sprocket have to be ordered from abroad.
Here is a tip: I've found an expert repair guy in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, at "Saigon Bike Shop", Mr Van.
He re-built my wheel after a crash three years ago, and at the same time took the hub apart and re-greased it. Excellent!
I especially prefer the 8-speed over the 11-speed, because of it's reliability and flawless performance over many years.
A much appreciated video. I'm a bike shop manager and I'll be recommending several of my customers watch it and quit doubting me when I tell them that the Alfine will work fine for them.
They're awful. I've got a Sturmey Archey 8 speed in my cargo bike that never wore in. So it doesn't go anywhere near hills, and I just put up with the skipping whenever I need to cart something. And I got my shop to convert my commuter to Alfine 11 speed di2. It somehow did 8000km before I finally gave up - the shop got Shimano to replace the internals once at about 1500km if I understand my strava logs correctly. The locknuts never actually locked properly when torqued to spec, and I learnt not to trust it on hills (which was my commute) and carry a big-arse socket ratchet around with me everywhere I went, nor could I trust it very far away from train lines that could get me back home. The forums are full of people saying "I've talked to the Shimano engineers and they said it was never designed for actual cyclists with proper leg strength - it was only ever meant to go into city e-bikes".
@@timconnors I've also talked to Shimano engineers in fact my uncle is one!
This is possibly the most competent technical video I've ever seen. Amazing. 10/10
Thanks so much!
@@Cyclingaboutiv always loved the sturmy archer
I had no idea. It's great to learn that this technology has evolved & is probably more pop than ever. I was heavy into the Shimano three speed back in the day. I am referring to 1977 to '81 & beyond. I collected a whole bunch of hubs after I had one apart and figured out what made it tick. Local bike shop was able to get replacement parts as well. Those were the days. I also inspired a good friend of mine to become an enthusiast. "Oh your hub". 😃😁😂
I love my Alfine - as an all-weather commuter it has not let me down. And as for its longevity, I got 10 years / 20,000 km out of my first one, with no internal maintenance at all.
love it too .got the old grease filled 8G. cleaned an regreased it last year after about 7-8years and couldnt find anything to worry about. its not good for uphills, thats the only thing and grease is getting a bit stiffer at really low temps but thats peanuts. bike could be covered in sand and mud and still no worries. never bought fenders and used it almost any day the last years in any weather. still first shift cable^^ i wouldnt use it for travelling with heavy loads due to the high gear ratio.
@@andreas4687 why is it not good for uphill?
@@JFarlette lack of gear ratio on the lower side as described. sprockets are limited as well to cap imput torque.
Should rename it all fine
very good ... i trust shimano
I ran since about 11 years the Alfine 8 as a daily commuter, since 9 years (when I moved from Europe) through rough Montreal winters. All problems I ever had were due to cabeling (frozen slush...), and I am on my 2nd shifter, the first broke last autumn. Love it!
Now, my new bike (built all by myself, a Soma Wolverine) got an Alfine 11 Di2. Less problems in winter! I still had some gear slipping in winter, but much less trouble then with the cable, now with the warm weather it went back to normal without me doing anything. Maybe the temp change had changed some tolerances and I might need to look for a best working "winter calibration". And yes, Di2 allows me to use drop bar hydro levers! I hide the Di2 battery inside the fork steerer, with the Shimano/Pro special stems which allow this... Now at around 3k km.
Love the Alfine! Ah, and the cargo bike runs a Nexus 8, so technically I have 3 of those hubs. Before that, I used most of my live old 3 gear internal hubs, so I new I love IGHs in the city!
I really want to thank you for the amount of time you take out of your life to make these videos. Things like this hub put me right to sleep if I read about them. You talking about them is so much easier. You are not a salesman at a store, you actually ride all over fuck and back, which is invaluable to me when you speak about these products. You never ever "pimp" anything, leaving us to make up our minds based on the info you have given us.
Thank you so much.
110% Agreed. Brilliant communicator !
Hell yes
Wow! 8 & 11 gears.
I remember when my 3 speed hub was the bee's knees.
Then I went to 10 speed derailleur. That was a huge step up. But it wasn't very crash proof. Still you could limp home.... unless the derailleur went into the spokes.....one became adept at respoking.
Love it!
You make a good point!
As my cogs have increased since the 7 speed cassette I used as a teen so has the chance of damaging my rear derailleur & fame etc.
I just realised that my dad's 40-year old bike has a 3-speed internal gear hub. I'd always wondered, as a kid, how his gears worked without the traditional derailleur that other bikes had. Not sure who the manufacturer is, though...
@@Ostsol sturmey archer or shimano
Mine is a 7 speed Shimano, came on double wall solid aluminum 26” wheels with 14 gauge stainless steel spokes.
I can get a cassette for £20 and a derailleur for similar....
i love alfine hubs i used one on for a mountain bike for three years without servicing and ran a pretty low gear and would constantly kick my pedals to do mountain bike things as well as intentionally trying to make it fail it definitely became sloppier in gear lash but i never had an internal failure. the largest issue i had during that time was breaking cable ends on the hub side due to chunky mud getting into the cable management section of the hub. eventually i sheared the cog on the outside but the internals were fine.
You've produced the best assessment of bike gearing that I can recall, and I've done very extensive research on this subject for decades. Note that I've designed & built various bicycle transmissions since hybridizing a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed with a 15-speed derailleur for (likely) the first 45-speed in 1963! My other systems include: a 67-speed, an 81-speed, a 378-speed, a rolling-traction CVT, a ratcheting CVT, and a ratcheting IVT, all as functioning prototypes (except the IVT needed re-design for bike mounting). Decades of pedaling my 200+ pounds up & down steep slopes in the Santa Cruz Mountains made this a mission for me!
Recent trends toward serious enduro, downhill and EMTB riding have pushed the market into pricing that now justifies my revival of my IVT invention (see my YT channel), reconfigured for front-mount and 1kW+ power throughput. Concerns about efficiency, torque, power & durability that you highlight here have been my longstanding priorities; so I'm redesigning my 'SIVAT' to fit with intense attention to all component specs; by far, the most difficult project of my engineering career! My goal is to create a bike transmission worthy of both the MTB/EMTB enthusiasts *and* long-distance cross-country riders, flavored accordingly.
As for your excellent analysis, I'm compelled to correct you on your use of the term 'gear-ratio'. It's a common mistake that we use the term 'low-gears' for steep ascents; the 'gear-ratio' is an engineering term that is input *speed* divided by output *speed* in RPM; so gear-ratio actually means the *inverse* of the colloquial use, i.e., steep climbs need *high* gear ratios! BTW, my SIVAT has an infinitely high-gear-ratio limit that no uphill will defeat! It may seem counter-intuitive that such intense mechanical advantage won't break parts, but both some mechanical wizardry and an intrinsic fail-safe will accomplish that with smooth efficiency!
*This* time, I mean business! Wish me luck!
So to clear up, what is a high gear ratio in your understanding? From what I have read (which could be wrong) a low 0.9:1 is for climbing and something like 4:1 is for speed.
I understand your angst about the high/low gear vs. high/low gear "ratio". But common use of first, second, third, etc. gear is the order one shifts in starting out, particularly in an automobile or motorcycle. Thus, in common parlance the lower gear is the higher ratio.
I don't think you can call it a mistake when the vast majority of us understood what is meant.
Now, let's talk about my childhood friend's family who used to say, "open the light" when they were closing the switch and, "close the light" when they were opening the switch. As a teenager I understood enough electronics for their terminology to grate on me, even though I understood what they meant.
@@eca7773 I think a low ratio is 1:1 and is good for the flat terrain (the old one speeds in the Netherlands) and high ratio lets you pedal eg. 4 times around for once around for the wheel as 4:1. So high gear for speed is low ratio and vice versa, put it into low gear for the high ratio and the hill.
@@projectmalus sorry but that is just incorrect.
Truthfully I don't want to get into a debate. Look up gear ratios for bicycles online and come back
@@eca7773 it is true that with the word “ratio” it changes the context of the conversation about gear talk, and correctly , but most humans think of the simple analogy of just like driving a car and selecting 1st gear or low gear to take off from the lights , taking off in the 1 st gear in most peoples minds will always be low gear , even if numerically ist gear has the biggest number of teeth on it. .
Outstanding video, Alee. Sincere thanks for sharing your wisdom.
I've had an Alfine 8 for a couple of years and am very pleased with it so far. I do feel after watching this video that at one point I left the bike a little too long in need of a gear cable adjustment. Hopefully it didn't damage the hub too much. At the moment it's fine.
Nice comparison video. Thanks. My first decent tour with the 11 speed Alfine/Di2 system was from Canada to Mexico along the US Pacific Coast. Not a single problem with it. I've learned it does leak more oil when not laid down. Always upright seems to lessen the oil leakage. Using the Rohloff Oil Change kit works well on it yearly and it's fine for long distances with very light loads.
Riding an alfine 8 for over a year now, 15k km so far, I'm loving it. I will one day propably go for a rohloff for extra gear range, but alfine is a beast for the price. Love the indepth, informative and objective video, cheers!
Love your channel Sir. One thing you missed out...you can buy an Alfine chain tensioner (looks like a rear derailleur with a short cage and jockey wheels but with no mechanism) and then use a front derailleur and double chain ring...obviously giving you a massively increased gear range.
I'm using this setup and loving it! Way bigger range than my partners 14 speed rohloff hub.
What do I need to buy? Would a 105 lever work with this hub?
I have a folding Dahon bike that I used to ride through London. It has an 8 speed derailleur and a 3 speed Shimano hub. I loved it because it has the flexibility of an overall wide range but the best aspect was the instant ratio change from the hub. Moreso if there was a requirement to stop suddenly, a flick of the hub selector while stationary would give a starting gear, maybe not optimal depending on where the chain was on the rear cassette but always something that you could start with. Unlike a full derailleur where you need to be moving to drop gears.
That alone made it awesome in unpredictable traffic.
My first proper bike had a Stermey-Archer and I have no idea how many miles I used it for but it would have been loads. 20 miles a day for probably 5 years at least. Not a peep out of it.
WOW... I had no idea who advanced bicycle technology has come in the past 45 years. These are really neat, especially the short moment you covered the E-bike or electric bicycle conversion set up. This was a very well put together video, exceptionally great pictures and cut-away drawings to help me understand what you were explaining with the planetary gear sets. Really clever stuff, now I want one, just to try it. I actually want to buy a regular bicycle with the derailer system, and run that for a while, get used to how that feels, then change it over to one of these (the cheaper unit to start with) and compare. I am actually rev'd up having seen this stuff.. I am shopping for a bicycle, "Doctor's orders" to get my heart stronger, and upon being overwhelmed in the on-line sales dept area, I thought i best get educated upon what all is out there, and more over, WHAT NOT TO GET. I suppose that is trauma from when I was a child, and a lessor quality bike frame snapped at the neck area welds, at a fairly high speed, (for me that is) approx 10 to 15 mph, and was slightly down hill. The resulting injury's messed me up pretty good, in fact, the hospital assumed I was hit and run over by a car. broken clavicle, sternum departed from the whole right side of rib cage, right and left side broken ribs, neck and back issues, 300 plus stitches in my body, 14 months of physical therapy. So, I would like to by something a wee bit safer then a cheap Sear & Roebuck Chinese built hobby hazard. Thank you for putting the effort into this wonderfully informative video. If I am required to get a bicycle, might as well get something that intrigues me. Thank you.
I thought I knew a lot about bikes until I saw this brilliant presentation about internal hubs. I was living in the old 3-speed world, now I'll be on the lookout for one of these Shimano hub bikes.
you basically have to build the rear tire yourself (bike shop), but try getting the hub right now, yikes
The old sturmey archers are vastly more efficient than the alfine 8.
I put a Shimano 7-speed hub on my wife's bike. It already had a double chainring on the crank, so we added a chain tensioner to pick up the slack in the smaller chainring. This gave us a decent gear range but maintained the simplicity of a hub in the back.
One thing to consider; Alfine use standard centerlock brake discs. Rohloff needs special brake discs, made for it.
Whilst true, they are readily available for the Rohloff, so not so much an issue.
@@spoxehub *for now
@@Varue discs for Rohloff’s have been readily available for over 20 years. I wouldn’t worry about wacky rohloff discs in terms of parts availability. Internal parts and proprietary cogs are a bigger factor - but not insurmountable issue. Rohloff has been making the speedhub14 for over 2 decades with a good track record of performance, parts availability and low headaches.
@@Varue for now ? Do you have any clue about what you’re talking about ? Rohloff isn’t going anywhere
@@spoxehub A centerlock brake disc is still much easier to source than whatever proprietary thing Rohloff peddles, nevermind a 6-bolt if you get an adapter.
Fascinating, educational and detailed video. I knew nothing about these, having been a D- man for 50 yrs. Your teaching cadence and explanations are beyond good. I learnt a lot. Thank you very much.
I learn so much every time you release a new instructional or review video, Alee - thank you for your very professionally-produced content!
I rode an Alfine 8-speed for a couple of years (on a Cotic Roadrat) and reduced the gearing to below 20" without any noticeable issues - but I only weigh 65kg. Very helpful table you have provided for recommended low gearing dependent on body weight.
I recently took possession of a brand new Rohloff-equipped fully rigid adventure bike, which I love. I was given the opportunity to have it with a used Rohloff (about 1,000 miles), which was a cost saving and also meant it had already been run in somewhat.
I often wish I had kept the Alfine-equipped Roadrat as a grocery-getter, and your video only confirms how daft I was to sell it on!
That max torque rating really does matter... learned that lesson many times. I build ultra-light motorbikes as a hobby (think
well it does if you have to do exactly that for example in mtb with an emtb.
Great video and I have to agree with everything you've said here. I live where it's pretty flat (Chicago, Illinois USA), and I've come to LOVE the Alfine 8 speed hubs. I used them on all of my bikes for a while, having the SG-S7001 model on a couple bikes, and an older (low normal shifting), SG-S501 which I used on a cargo bike paired with a Bafang BBSHD mid-drive motor. My greatest advice to anyone purchasing a newer Alfine 8 speed hub would be to open it up, pack it marine grade grease, and inject some Phil Wood Tenacious Oil to prevent water infiltration. I had one Alfine 8 pack it in in less than six months because water got inside and the resulting grit/wear turned the bearing races into a pitted (probably unrepairable), mess. I also own a Rohloff and NEVER thought I'd spend $1500 on a geared hub, but I was building a recumbent tandem trike which got the BBSHD motor from my old cargo bike. The Rohloff is the ONLY geared hub that can withstand the torque input of two riders and a mid-drive motor. That being said, it's a great piece of engineering but it's certainly WAY more noisy than my Alfine hubs. I've had derailleur drivetrains for over 35+ years of riding and when I tried out geared hubs a few years ago I decided I was NEVER going back. Lower maintenance, less noise, and far greater durability and no worries about bent derailleur hangers or destroyed derailleurs.
Have never tried internal hubs and now am seriously thinking of getting one once I've decided to fully restore my old 3X 90's bike.
Super informative! Tops!
That was a great sumup of the Shimano Alfine range. I myself am a big fan of the 11 speed hub and I used it for some rather extensive touring (Japan and New zealand). I'm aware of the limited gear range issue, but I worked around it by using a double chainring in the front (32-44 I believe). That way I could stay on the big ring most of the time and not worry about torque at all. If the hills got steeper I'd use the small ring and just concentrate on smooth torque output and not any sprint attempts :) What wore down is the shifter from microshift.. This was the only way to combine dropbard with the alfine 11 back then. By now I switched to DI2.. this allows for the use of original shimano shifters and also hydraulic brakes, which is a whole different feeling :) One note.. when flying, always carry some spare oil as the pressure difference combined with the bike lying down usually makes the oil leak quite a bit..
Sadly the automatic shifting feature only works with the alfine 8 and 5 DI2, not the 11-speed.. I suspect this is due to the torque issues... Nevertheless.. great video!
Do you have a shifter attached to the double chainring? If so, which one?
@@rdx913 It was a standard road shifter I believe.. old dura-ace for the handlebar and some standard front derailleur
Amazingly informative. You answered every question I had about internal gears and using these with electric motors. You also answered the hill climbing chore I have with my 7-speed Brilliant L-Train.
I say Alfine has done pretty well when it's comparable to a hub almost 7 times it's price
Right on spot...
However: after cycling Alfine 11 / Nexus 8 for about 8k and now Rohloff for about 9k I will stick to Rohloff... despite its ridiculous price tag (not that much of issue for me, bought used bike with R14 and picked it out)
Alfine 11 might appear comparable on paper but the lack of low gears and lower efficiency becomes *way* more pronounced then the numbers suggest... In fact driving my R14 and A11 bikes back-to-back makes me always look for defect brake or other energy wasters
Having said that: Alfine line is great value for price and suitable for lot of cyclist
@@d.k.7710 the price tag of the Alfine is ridiculous! You can't make something like a precision hub for that price without going to a low wages country where workers have few rights! Shimano makes excellent hubs, but you must not compare the price to a product wich is made by a worker who makes a decent living, insurance and retirement fund.
Thanks, you just saved me 22 minutes of video!
@@joramvandervorst7715 surely true, but at the end any potential customer will make his decision strongly dependent on the price.
Secondly: 199$ goes best case for Alfine 8, feels more like Nexus 8, which is way worse and cheaper.
Alfine 11 starts at lower 400$....
Do You have any closer informations on the production condition / area of Shimano hubs?
Except Shimano's QA is crap, we had to replace ours three times before we got a working one. That's not including they sent us the wrong parts twice. On top of that if you have more than one gear up front you will need the Alfine chain tensioner.
I have a Nexus 8. It works pretty well, but the trigger shifters don't allow downshift-dumping as one can do with a derailleur drivetrain, and the twist-shifters that do allow downshift-dumping are known for being less accurate. Also, I wish it were fully sealed so oil wouldn't leak out past the hub bearings when the bike is laid-down on its side. I know Nexus hubs are supposed to be greased, not oiled, but lots of people run oil instead because it protects against rust and doesn't gum-up. Alfine hubs are fully sealed, but they aren't compatible with the roller brakes on my bike. As for the lack of ultra-low climbing gears, I fixed that by pairing it with a 2-speed crankset with 42t and 26t chainrings. Granny-gear on my bike is quite useful.
Does the two speed crankset require a derailleur? Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of using a hub gear? Genuinely curious because I want to get a hub gear for my bike but am concerned about the lack of climbing gears
This is a great video and good coverage of the topic.
I've been using the 11 speed on a long john cargo bike and over torquing it. I think it was 2014 or 2015 when I did it. And I used it a LOT (like 5-6 trips a day often) carrying kids and lots of overloading cargo for about 5 years. Since then I only use it sporadically. It has held up fine. I was always scared about breaking it with the torque because I did that with a 2009 Sturmey Archer 8 sp (broke it) But the shimano has held up much better. I was slipping gears at one point and was worried I had broke it but actually it was just worn chain and cogs, replaced that and fixed. I only did the oil once, because it is a bit intimidating when you haven't done a lot of IG overhauls and also when you need to use it daily. When i did I took it all apart convinced i would find wear from riding it a lot with dirty cables. It was actually pretty clean inside and still well lubricated. I chose to go cheap and use a car transmission oil which ended up being a lot thinner and leaking more, but it still has worked fine. Also i live in a very hilly place and I can't stand the high gear ratios that most people tolerate, I need to spin on hills and will always build bikes that way. For reference, my brand new schwalbe marathon tires were wearing out on the sidewalls from the heavy loads when my kids got big, in only 1-2months. I had to switch to marathon plus. But the hub never complained.
So my advice is that I think it could be fine for most touring, maybe not around the globe but that is a special case.
However, I do think your price comparison is a big unfair. I've never bought or sold a rohloff but I think they come fairly complete. In contrast Shimano makes their price seem artificially low by making the shifter and cog and cable parts all as extra costs. When I bought it it was about $>900CAD even though the hub by itself was $5~600. I don't think it's fair to compare if rohloff is including a shifter.
I think the 2 cable setup of rohloff deserves some brief mention.
Also, I like the many sweet pictures of English frames. I met that guy in 2009. Glad to see he is doing so well. Great bikes.
Thanks for the video
My 8 speed Alfine is 17k kilometres old, had no servicing and presented zero issues. Im only on my second set of sprockets and 4th chain. I will neve use anything else.
Excellent video.
Thank you for this great video. I'm on my second 8 speed Alfine hub. The first one got submerged and froze up. After seeing your video, I would consider the 11 Speed Di2 because of the increased range and the precision shifting. Also, I really appreciated your perspective on maintenance.
I've had a Rohloff hub on my bikes for the past 20 years. Over 20 years that is only £50 a year (assuming you stick with the same hub - I did get the electronic shifting Rohloff and sold my old one with my last upgrade, so this is Rohloss #2 - or #3 if you count the one on my wife's bike). But £1000 is a hell of a steep ask upfront especially as the bikes that take them also end up being on the premium end, so maybe if I was coming at it green, Alfine would be my first choice. Now, if would feel like a step backward, so it's Rohloff for life, I guess.
The nice thing about hubs is, you can install them on pretty much every bike that can fit the axles.
So let's say you want a new bike, but don't want to spend on the Rohloff again, just get it with a Nexus 7/8 or Alfine 8 and switch the rearwheel. Put the Shimano wheel on eBay or something and you got your next two Rohloff services covered.
But even both Alfine options (8/11) are damn solid.
I did bicycle touring with a Shimano Nexus 8 Premium on a Cannondale Bad Boy. As you said, going uphill was very difficult. After 20 years of use, the frame cracked, but the hub still works...
Yes, the Nexus hubs seem pretty bulletproof. I have a 3-speed on my city bike that I’ve torqued the heck out of for a few years (climbing hills in the lowest gear) and I’ve not had a single issue.
to be fair, the video showed Shimano placing this products under the "urban" category (or something similar to that). So, it'd be unfair to judge it outside of its specs. Still, relevant info about them, glad it was mentioned here.
I have been interested in these drive-train options, especially with a belt, for some time. I am so happy that I came upon this video. It is an excellent explanation on how IGHs work and the advantages and disadvantages in using them. I have watched many "how-to" and "explanation" TH-cam videos on many subjects, this particular video has to be among the best produced that I have seen...very well done. 👍
I first saw the Shimano gear hubs in Japan in the late 90s and I've always been interested in building a touring bike around a geared hub. Ideally I'd combine the hub with the belt drivetrain.
The Trek District 🤙
Alfine with a waxed chain is still really slick and silent
Best review I have ever seen!
I had an Alfine 8 fail on me in Bolivia in 2016...switched back to derailleur gearing. the Alfine was super sensitive to cable adjustments to the point that i started cleaning and relubricating the cable every couple weeks of touring. I was running a lower than recommended gear ratio...but as you point out, you kind of have to in order to make the hub work for touring. I definitely would recommend the hub for a city bike or around town bike, especially as it seems both versions have gotten durability improvements since I had mine.
I have an Alfine 11 which has done 27,000km. I ride in sun or rain, but do change the oil every 12 months.
We have made 35'000 km on a tandem with Nexus/Alfine 8. Now we are approaching 20'000km with a standard 3x9 XT drivetrain.
Since the availability of the 3x9 groups is going to be an issue (or even a big problem for tandems with a left-hand side timing chain setup), we will probably consider an electronic Alfine 11 in a few years.
Vroom vroom brah brah blocked
The efficiency comparison has to take into account the gear you’re in. In gear 11 on a Rohloff the hub is locked up and so there is no power lost in the hub- its as efficient as a fixie- as efficient as any bike drive train can be. There’s probably an equivalent for other hubs. When you set up your bike you ensure that the gearage inches- distance travelled per crank revolution, allows you to cruise in gear 11 most of the time.
On my 8-speed Alfine hub, gear 5 is the 1:1 gear, for anyone wondering.
according to fahrrad zukunft's testing the rohloff has the highest efficiency(very close to a single speed) in gear 8 for some reason and due to its design 4(low range direct drive) and 11(high range direct drive) have second and third highest efficiency
Great video, one instantly gets the feeling that you really know what you're talking about. Honest pro's and con's for all 3 systems made me sure to stay with my bike as is. The 8 speed version is not sufficient, 11 gears with that ratio sound great but the failure chance frightens me and the roloff is clearly out of budget.
My Nexus 8 has held up pretty well for more than 30.000 km. The grease has been changed regularly. After some repairs over the last years it now seems to be on the way out. According to my mechanic the Nexus hubs are built for 20000 km and wear is visible on the teeth. The noise and vibrations have significantly increased over the last months. Overall, I still am pretty impressed.
That is some solid benefits from such a component. Of course parts are not permanent, but 30 000 km is more than what many car parts last.
Ive got an 8 speed Shimano on my 20 year old Giant courier bike with never a service . Still changes like it always has, smoothly , its just a nexus too , I would like to put an 11 speed Alfina hub on my Trek Checkpoint gravel bike which really only gets paddock use not mud as I use it just to ride to the beach on quiet back roads and small trails
Years ago I owned a Trek 7100 and when the 7spd cassette wore out, I installed a Nexus 8 IGH. Needed a chain tensioner but otherwise it was a direct replacement. Worked beautifully for a number of years. When it broke, it would refuse to shift into certain gears or skip around. These are cool, but for a casual rider a derailleur and cassette are still better if, for no other reason, they are easier and cheaper to maintain. Heavy duty commuters who don’t mind spending extra will love the IGH.
Hubs are a no brainer for commuter bikes, if the budget allows. I'm never going back to chain for city bikes.
How long you commute? 3 miles/5km? You can do anything. What about 15 to 25 miles one way commute? You increase you ride for 20-30 minutes.
I commute 7 km daily, internal hubs ftw. Whatever bike works without any maintenance is good. I only lube and change the chain when it needs to.
You still need a chain for the hub
Your wording doesn’t make sense. You always need a hub and either a chain or belt. Belt specific frames are a bit more expensive. I ride a single speed to work, and that’s my no-brainer. A Shimano freewheel is around 20-25 dollar around here. No idea where to find a good quality 3 dollar freewheel as suggested in the video.
I used to commute 14 miles with one a Shimano hub shifters. Never had an issue with the hub. Flat tires on the other hand…
Thanks a bunch. Every thing, Presentation, Information, Graphics & your experience
were all award wining.
I have a shimano Alfine 8 speed on my commuterbike (that has to stand outside everyday), it came on a Decathlon Elops 920 speed, awesome value for money, I do wish it had a belt drive but I guess that would hike up the price a lot. I haven't had any problems with it and as it stands outside everyday it sees a lot of rain/cold/heat/... I clean it about once every 4-6 months.
A belt drive frome Gates costs roughly 300€. About 100€ per part. Cog is a bit under and Chainring is a bit over 100€.
What does cleaning mean?
@@angelsaucedo2231 my understanding is that belts can be cleaned with water and a brush. And they should be cleaned regularly.
So Glad I stopped by - What a Great Review of Tech rarely seen.
While visiting in Sweden a few moons back in winter, I did a full reman on a 20" folding
with 2 speed internal shift hub, where you back stepped the pedal to shift up or down.
It actually worked quite well after I modified gearing for the steep hills required in 4-6" of snow.
Oh yes, the winter tires took two weeks to get them. But they really worked well, where even the
neighbor would shout out to try to get me to stop riding it in deep snow,, to offer me a ride in stead
in 4 wheel drive. Quite a comical event where I always said no thanks. I was having too much fun darnit...
But I have no memory who made that hub - it wouldn't surprise me if it was Rohloff.
Cheers
I've been using a Rohloff mated to a Bafang 1000W BBSHD since 2018. Gets the job done and hasn't failed me yet on my Catrike Expedition. However, I'd definitely now looking into an Alfine as a secondary IGH solution for my Dahon Speed D7. I think blowing $1800 on a hub is good enough for one time. The $200ish price tag on the Alfine seems better for a folding bike I bought used for $100.
Great video, I love it!
I bought a few months ago new city bike with the belt + internal Shimano-8 hub. I don't pack my bike, and ride in the Netherlands (no mountains, small hills). I am very happy about it, I surely do not want to change gear ratios or add anyone. It's all perfect as it is. I don't see any reason (yet) for the Shimano-11, Rohloff or Pinion.
As always, thanks for the excellent and informative video. You always lose me with the math behind the rations and gear inches, but I trust you.
I've been using Alfine/Nexus hubs for the majority of my adult cycling life. I purchased a new Marin Fairfax bike in 2018 with a Nexus 8, and within 6 months of normal commuting in Vancouver area climate it was destroyed from water, the internals were very rusty and worn out. I guess I should have it regreased on day 1.
Shimano came through though, after the dealers dropped the ball and failed to warranty anything. They setup me up with an Alfine 11, which has been fantastic and I appreciate the extra range. It is an SG-S700, I wasn't aware of the difference between it and the newer model, but I've seen little oil leakage.
I switched to a Jtek bar-end shifter so I could use drop bars. I have mixed feelings here. Everyone seems to give these high marks. I think they are really nice when working because you can easily shift from one end to the other, but I believe they are poorly made / designed. The material wears rapidly as the ball bearing inside is rubbed against it during a shift, and this makes the indexing lose it's precision. I also had to replace one because it wore very fast and would jam from riding in the rain in a very short timeline. It is also large and heavy. A better designed bar end shifter would be fantastic.
As for Nexus, I understand they were said to have different brake options, but they do also include disc brakes, so I'm not sure the difference between it and the Alfine 8.
Someone spotted my bike and noticed the internal hub, when they realised it was an Alfine and not a Rholoff replied with very rude comments. From my experience the Alfine is an excellent hub and great value, and most people who experience problems are not maintaining the shifting indexing/adjustment correctly. A better shifter would resolve this.
I've got gates CDX with 46/24, 30x700c and I do okay on most of the hills I encounter
Try an old Sturmey Archer
@@marcofecteau I have... What's your point?
I was riding Sturmey Archer hubs in the sixties. Easy changes and so smooth.
They were common on British bikes.
Great video! I'm a tall heavy rider who prefers low gears so I'd probably be pushing the limitations of the Shimano hubs. My next touring bicycle will be one with a Rohloff hub.
If you want to buy/use the electronic shifting Alfine (11 or 8 speed) then be aware that Shimano have now discontinued both the gear display (SC-S705) and the button shifter for a flat bar (SW-S705 ). There are Shimano alternatives but not branded as Alfine. The gearshift of an Alfine 11 speed hub can move up or down 2 gears at once with a long push so you can shift through 4 gears with two pushes. The shifter of the 8 speed moves only one gear at a time.
I've had Alfine 8 speed for around 8 years and I loved it! Especially low maintenance. I traveled around 11 000 km and the only thing that broke was the shifter... and a bttom bracket after 9k km. When I was selling it even chain was still within acceptable limits. Currently I have a gravel bike with SRAM Apex / Rival mix and I'm on third chain (probably should be my fourth one, as first change was postponed too much), third bottom bracket, second cassette and second derailleur (switched to Rival as my Apex became quite wobbly) - and I just traveled around 8 000 km on it. And the cleaning... eh. I jus love internal hubs.
There were two things that were significantly worse with my internal hub - lack of low speed gears (as you mentioned) and high speeds efficiency. High speed difference is not much, but with Apex / Rival it seems I can ride around 2km/h faster than with Alfine - but only when it's clean... and I have to clean it every two weeks. I cleaned my Alfine perhaps 2 times a year.
Just a question...why did you abandon the internal hub in your new setup ?
@@malaysiadentist4637 The answer is rather simple. I wanted to try something new - gravel bike - and in that matter I do not regret my choice.
I was looking only to 1x options like my previous Alfine, but with a bigger gear range. Alfine 11 gravel bikes were not available (I'm not sure if there are broadly available even now), GRX wasn't released yet, so my only option was SRAM Apex. Pinion gearbox or Rohloff hub were more than twice my budget.
I have a 11 Speed Alfine a Rohloff and just got a 7 speed Kindernay. I am a big guy and break a lot of bike stuff, but the Alfine has held up really well. The first one I had did get replaced under warranty because the dealer thought it had a cracked flange - honestly I never saw it. The replacement has gone 3 or 4 thousand miles on my mid drive road bike with no real trouble. I did have some shifting issues several months ago and could feel some flex on the drive side - thought I had broken something. Ordered replacement internals, but once I got it all apart I think it was the nuts that hold the hub together working there way loose. i guess this is fairly common from comments online - fix is to retorque the inside nuts from time to time (basically like an old time cone washer). Alfine is much smoother than the Rohloff and I like the shifter feel better than the hydros on the Kindernay. For the price they are a great hub. Wish my frame could run a belt drive, that would make it perfect.
I'm curious about the cost for a belt-compatible frame, I can't find that locally. not sure about the Amazon/eBay stuff.
I'd like to build/buy a commuting bike based on a gravel bike frame (I have a few hundreds meters of trail at the end of the road, and stuff always get caught between the frame and tyre/brakes), something inexpensive, I could get a new basic bike for 250 euros, paid 1000 for my now 25 years old road bike, is it possible to stay in these limits?
The Cube Hyde mentioned in the article almost fits those points, but I can't find it in my area...
Great overview. I am a big fan of Rohloff and had 4 different bikes with a Rohloff hub, all sold to happy new customers. My new Cargo bike does not have a Rohloff hub but it will get one soon. Once you get used to the precise shifting of a Rohloff hub, there is no way back on a bike that is pushed to its limits like a heavy cargo bike.
Still, I advised a friend not to switch to a Rohloff hub but instead get an Alfine 8. He would not take the expensive Rohloff on a trip to the shopping mall because he would be too afraid it got stolen. Especially in the flat land we live in (the Netherlands) the Alfine 8 is more than good enough for 99% of all bikes.
Ah , hier heb ik iets aan , dank je
How I wish all TH-cam videos were like this one. Actual figures and facts rather conjecture and trends. Thank you Cyclingabout.
I’m glad to see the return of gearhubs. I had a 5-speed hub in the early 70’s.
I’m surprised you don’t mention the option of combining an internal hub with multiple front sprockets. I’ve been using an Alfine 8 speed for a quite a few years, for daily commuting and for touring. My bike came with two sprockets on the front, allowing to have more gear ratio options, especially smaller gears for tourin gwhen you’re going uphill with a load. I’m very happy with this solution.
Now that’s a great idea to get into “granny-low” range when needed w/o sacrificing the top end.
A really excellent and very helpful presentation - it's just a tad unfortunate that it leaves me, as a heavier rider with significant hills in every direction in an awkward position - but at least I'm no longer tempted by thoughts of cobbling together a super low range hybrid set up - and that's a load of tears saved!
Thanks - specifically for laying out the rider weight issues so clearly. I doubt I would ever have gotten around to that.
Great video. Very informative and well presented. Been running an earlier 11 speed Alfine for riding to work (only 25km a day, Road bike on Fridays :) and it's been brilliant. Oil changes are easy and haven't had any leaks. I did break a carbon drive belt earlier on but nothing since. Once again, great video.
@@VidNibs I wouldn't worry about it too much. I snapped the first one sprinting off the lights and shifting as i was going. There must have been something wrong with it or it was damaged as i've probably broken 3 chains in my life of 4/cross, BMX and DH. The replacement Carbon Drive Belt has done about 2500 to 3000km with basically no maintenance since.
Great breakdown of issues and advantages making for a very useful video. Thank you for illuminating a dark spot in my bike gear knowledge. Critical point about the hill climbing ratios of the Rohloff vs the Alfine hubs points out one is great for flat land riding with small hills and the other is hands down better for touring. Good Job!
Outstanding review!! One of the clearest and most data-filled reviews I've ever seen -- for any product!
I had a single-speed Cannondale urban bike a few years ago, and added an Alfine hub purchased secondhand. A bit of fiddling with the eccentric bottom bracket and I was up and running. Terrific upgrade, although the reversed shifter action took a little getting used to.
Yes, I have one of those rapid-rise Alfines on my downhill bike. Shimano realized their error and corrected it. I can't even go between road and rapid rise trigger. It is just terrible unless every one of your bikes is rapid-rise (they shouldn't be).
This is really a high quality video with a lot of valuable information. As an owner of both systems (Rohloff and Shimano) in different bikes, I have still learned some interesting details. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Just some additional information: My wife rides an e-bike with a Rohloff hub combined with an electronic(!) shifter and a belt drive. Maybe you overlooked this combination. The torque of the motor is automatically reduced for a fraction of a second during shifting to enable smoother gear shifting (via CAN bus). After a stop (i.e. at a traffic light) the hub switches automatically to a certain gear. Overall she is very happy with this setup. Fun fact: Rohloff resides in the village where I was born…
Hi elr, could you please advise what brand and model your wife's bike is. Thanks D-)
@@michaelbjornrasmussen414
Hi Michael,
my wife rides a Stevens E14 Forma (she needs the open frame because of her new artificial hip joint - the more classic frame geometry is called "Gent"). My reply from yesterday wasn't published by youtube maybe because of the URL I've included. You'll find the bike at the "stevensbikes" homepage in the e-bike section. But be warned because of the hefty price tag...
This is the best hub review video I've seen. The only remaining question I had, was input on the hub would compare to a gearbox, but it appears you linked to a video on exactly that. Excellent work.
@4:02 Don't forget to mention that those 11 gears don't improve your "uphill battle." You either need reduction gears or simply a more highend gear hub for that like Pinion or Roloff Speedhub. Schlumpf Mountaindrive cost about 700 bucks in material only.
@5:19 It is a smart thing to do to buy a complete wheel with those hubs. It is often cheaper.
@9:38 ... but over 6 times the price and you cannot use reduction gears - at least officially.
@14:32 Yes, but you could use reduction gears and even surpas the gear range of the Roloff. E. g. the Schlumpf Mountain drive adds additional reduced gears to the mix, even some that are too extreme to use.
Taylor Wheels is quite good seller, if you are in Europe .. . . or UK (sigh)
Great Video. Just a random addon - the 5 gear Shimano hubs are paired with the Shimano Steps E6100 which delivers 60NM as well as the Boch Performance Line, delivering 65NM. The 8 gear hub is usually found only on bikes with motors that top out at 50NM as you correctly said.
I have an Alfine 11 speed on one of my bikes with a 39 tooth front chain ring.
I found that the recommended 18 or 20 tooth rear cog FAR too high geared!
You would have to be descending Mount Everest to use 10th and 11th gear.
Luckily, a Nexus 23 tooth cog (despite what Shimano on Email said about compatibility) fits and works perfectly and gives me full use of all 11 gears.
I love how Geeky you made this video ! Thanks for all the details and info and work ups !
I've used a Shimano Nexus 8 Red for 12 years. Great for urban riding. Did one tour, not it's strong point. Around 14,000 miles with out any issues.
Wow, I wish I knew why my experience was so different. I got somewhere around 3k miles into two Nexus 8 red band before they each failed in the same way - 4th started skipping. Never shifted under load - felt like I treated them very well. But given they're not serviceable the only option is to buy another. I also /hated/ that the big ratio gap is at exactly the wrong place - between 5th and 6th where you'd be cruising on the flat and wanting just the right ratio.
I am a big fan of IGHs in principle, but I wasn't prepared to risk another short lived Shimano 8 and now my only IGH is a 3-speed city bike. Much worse ratio gaps of course but cheap, efficient, easily serviced and durable. I just think of it as a single-speed with bonus acceleration / climbing ratios.
I'm 90kg with strong legs and urban stop-start riding, but I feel like they should be able to tolerate that.
@@wjcferguson +1 (almost completely)😤 _still grabbed the "next" one. It won't get stolen ( _x-fingers_ )
Did you do any maintenance at all?
@@MrQuay03 Had the hub cleaned and re-greased after 8 years.
Your video is the first and only video that covers up ALL hub gear aspects, so thank you!
I use my alfine bike for travelling with heavy loads, only on paved roads but also over high mountain passes. The alfine 11 lasts in my bike approximately 20.000km. I have changed it twice yet. I think it is due to poor cable adjustment, but the alignment of the yellow marks is not really helpful. I can spin the cable 2-3 times and the yellow marks still align. The yellow marks are just not precise enough for a good alignment. Therefore I have gear slip every now and then until the alfine breaks again. Though it is still cheaper than a derailleur drive train from the service perspective, I think Shimano can do a better job with the alignment of the shifter cable. The actual hub is the 7001 and I hope it will last longer.
I do not agree that there are not enough small gears. If the gears are too big four you, go for a bigger cog or a smaller chain ring. I don't think you would need to go for a smaller gear than 36. I personally use the 39/20 setup and I am fine with it. Ascents up to 18% are okay, above that I have to push the bike.
This is a great an very informative video.
I generally agree with everything you said. I have a number of bikes, all are used in urban environment.
My favourite for a stroll is the one with a nexus 3 speed hub. (Except when I want to go fast...)
The biggest issue with hubs is that is not so easy to inspect it.
When you have a derailleur and cassette you can very easy check the condition
You don't need to inspect it like a derailleur.
A pleasure to watch a video from such a knowledgeable person. Thanks!
You forgot to mention the fact that there are a lot more people using alfine than rohloff and that most people using alfine have no idea how to maintain or use a bicycle properly an that increases the quantity of people complaining about alfine failure
Great video, just bought a bike with Nexus 8 speed hub & belt drive. Definitely the future of low maintenance cycling.
Now just put an enclosed chain guard around the chain, front and rear fenders over the wheels, a package carrier at the back, mount a lock to the frame, sweep back the handle bars, and give it an upright seating position, make the whole thing out of steel, and you have yourself a reliable Dutch bike.
Your videos are excellent. They give us all the information we'd want in a calm and efficient way, and are very good at answering the questions that people would redially ask. Well done. I've learned a lot.
Thank you very much! Happy to share the bike topics I'm very passionate about.
Man I wish Shimano would come up with a touring hub. I really can't give up a single gear inch of my detailer Setup but i really want a belt drive too.
You could use something like the schlumpf high speed drive to extend your range. According zu their website newer models can be used with belt drives. Downside: it is expensive. But alfine+schlumpf might be cheaper than a rohloff oder kindernay. Not sure though.
Time to save some money and go with Rohloff. And once you’ve tried it you’ll never come back
I have an nexus 8 with an alfine shifter and 2 front chainrings (:
@@kunstspielklavier185 I thought of this too but I think in the end it wouldn't be cheaper, all in. Also the weight. Would be cool to try. I know it has been done but I've never had a good look at that.
I put a schlumpf driving a rohloff, love it. The range is simply spectacular.
this is the best touring channel on YT, no competition
Thanks for the support!
We have three bikes with Alfine 8 Di2 with Steps 6000, for like 6-7 years. They are simply fantastic. The electric shifting is very fast, zero maintenance, very precise.
Consistently clear, delightful English speech, besides surprisingly helpful content.
Thank you Alee, this is super timely. I really want to upgrade my Yuba Supermarche cargo bike to a IGH and a Rohloff seems like overkill for a urban cargo bike. Information on these hubs are really hard to find online compared to Rohloff and you answered every question I had about Alfine. I would be interested in what you think about the Envolio hubs (formerly Nuvinci), I rode once once and it was kinda weird.
I have a Nuvinci 380 on an Evelo Orion ebike. When I got it I hadn't done a lot of riding in 5 or 6 years but had recently put around 100 miles or so on a Diamondback Wildwood. The inefficiency of the Nuvinci was immediately apparent. I don't hate the thing and pairing it with a mid drive ebike makes for a pretty good bike but I don't think I'd like it too much on a non-ebike... at least not for hilly Portland and an old, slightly out-of-shape rider!
@@zapaholic thanks for the insight!
Very few people understand the skill set needed to present information clearly. And that's before you add in the technical skills and time needed to successfully edit video. Kudos. Concise, comprehensive quality all the way.
I have noticed that a lot of companies, like Gazelle for instance, are pairing their mid drive bikes with Nexus hubs. I like the Nexus 7 and 8 speed hubs for light commuting or errand running, but I wonder how well that pairing with mid-drive motors is going to work out.
Nice video: I'm also a fan of internal hubs. I have a Rohloff, luckily bought 2nd hand. But even new, if you need the range in gearing it offers, looking at overall total cost of a standard external system, over a period of 10 yeartsd, let's say, it still works out cheaper. Not even adding in the maintenance cost differences.
As far as the "over-torque" argument, in terms of using low gears, I've always been dubious about that: at least as far as Rohloff is oncenerned, and I suspect the Alfine systems as well.
Both of these systems have big safety factors in their design. If Shimano rates the hubs at 100N-m, I'd be pretty sure you could run them at least at 150N-m without serious issues.
And if it DOES fail, well, so what? It's not going to be face-plant stuff, and unless you are in the middle of Outer Bongolistan, getting a replacement is not such a big deal. If you NEED the lower gearing to do the job, then switch.
And remember, it's a TORQUE limit. So you need to compare the two cases properly: (1) using too high a gear that forces you to STAND on the pedals to get up the steel hill (and STANDING means a LOT of weight) versus (2) using a nice low gear you can SPIN up (and be sitting down).
Remember: Torque = FORCE x moment-arm. Also remember what is CAUSING the torque. It's NOT you on the pedals that is in effect CAUSING it, it's you trying to go up a steep hill that causes it.
This supposed "torque-limit" is not really an engineering restriction but rather more marketing based. The Alfine is aimed at the hybrid/commuting crowd, and it needs to be light to compete. As soon as you encourage users to use it for heavy-duty touring, with loaded bikes, and up steep gradients, you WILL strart to see some failures just from the more extreme cases where big/strong/heavily loaded tourers stood on the cranks to get up hills. And since that martket niche is very small, Shimano isn't going to design the hub to be as reliable/long-lasting in it because it will be a lot heavier, and mean it being less attractive to its main market: the commuter/hybrid crowd.
But if you are a tourer, and don't want to spend $1,500 for a Rohloff, then it's still a good risk to spend $200 on an Alfine, even if it DOES wear out in a year or two. If you are a light rider, it will be more likely to last than a big guy.
Everything very well explained. Thank you so much for your time and work in order to make this video and illustrate me.
I did a conversion of my Rohloff hub bike from the chain that was installed on it in the factory to a belt. When doing this conversion it became increasingly clear to me why it's such a costly hub: it's pretty awesome quality parts that you're dealing with. Still though the Alfine hubs have also had my attention and I actually considered getting a bike with the 11 speed Alfine hub before going for the Rohloff option.
Thanks for breaking it down. Currently running an Alfine 11 on one bike, with Gates Carbon drive - quietest bike ever. I used to have a Rohlhoff on a bike I built a long time ago, and I never liked the 2 full length cables not the throttle shifter, and clunky looking frame connect, that looks like a coaster brake. I would not say the 11 speed Alfine compares favorably to a derailleur based drivetrain on tough trails, but the Alfine is a really nice system. Easing pedaling power is the best advice!!
Although you’re right about a lot of subjects in this video, the difference in efficiency between basically all other IGH’s and the Rohloff is something you cannot put a price on. If you value speed and efficient power transfer, use a Rohloff. Yes it’s a little noisy, that’s what you get with straight cut gears, the diagonally cut gears of the Shimano’s kill the efficiency..
I’ve owned 6 or 7 different Rohloff bikes, I’m never going back to something else. My latest two bikes have Gates belts, now I never have to clean my bikes anymore, only riding them😊 (6000~8000km per year). 😊
Must be nice to have $
@@garyhuston3107yes it is😊, I spend €€ on my bikes, not on my car.
Great video, thanks! Just a minor quibble about your “orders of magnitude” comment at 4:10 - one order of magnitude is 10X, two orders is 100x, three is 1000x, etc. so the difference between $400 and $1500, while large, is still well below one order of magnitude :)
I have an Alfine 8 on my trekking bike, re-greased it myself a few times, made sure to never shift under load, but after 7000 km it starts to act up (gears slipping, weird noise) despite being freshly oiled and adjusted. I think it is simply not made for high loads as produced by a heavy & "strong" rider. The gear jumps are an issue, I frequently wish for a gear between 5th and 6th as that jump is pretty high.
I am almost certain that your gears are just fine. I think this is something you can fix with adjusting the cable. Most bikes have an easy adjuster on the handlebars where the shifting cable comes out. Turn it a bit and your bike will run like new again. I have ridden 30.000 km's on one without any regard for its life apart from adjusting the cable and I only have problems now.
@@petertroep9085 Cable is and was adjusted fine, the yellow indicators match.
@@erlkoenig90 You probably need a new shifter cable. Does not cost much, around E 8,-
I had similar issues after the first "self-maintenance" of my Alfine 8 hub. The problem was, that the nut on the axle was not properly tightened, see here: th-cam.com/video/XGks14goow0/w-d-xo.html (at around 15:00 minutes). I was afraid to overtighten it, that led to some space, which allowed the internals to slip. I was able to fix it, and it's been running fine since. Maybe also consider letting it be checked by a bike shop. Good luck!
Just what I found. The jump from 5th to 6th gear on the Alfine 8 spd is a ridiculous 22%. It's like Shimano engineers missed out a whole gear. Anyway totally impossible to ride with a loaded bike in the flat and don't even consider it for the hills, hopeless!!!! So swapped the Alfine 8spd for a Rohloff hub after only 50 miles riding the Afline 8 and so pleased I did. The Rohloff hub is far far superior.
You make the most thorough and informative videos, thank you very much.
Well, there's a few good reasons why car manufacturers use transmissions with planetary gears ...
But I'm good with my chain drive. The simplicity wins here imo.
Nevertheless, very interesting summary that feels well balanced and informed. Thanks!
Simplicity comes in many forms.
A planetary gearbox hub belt drive is simple in the sense that it is lower maintenance than a chain derailleur system. As mentioned in the video, one can use it for thousands of kilometers before it needs to be re-oil/re-greased. the belt lasts for thousands of kilometers too and required no lubrication. If the bike gets dropped, the chance of damaging the drivetrain is a lot lower. This is why such systems are used in commuter bikes. Partnering it with a compressionless cable housing will make it even work better.
I’ve stumbled across so really good videos on TH-cam recently. This was genuinely informative, thank you!
Great video, really detailed and interesting. What's funny is I had a Sears 5 speed (with a straight shifter) when I was a lad - it had an internal 5 speed hub, and that was around 1975. Had that bike for years before I broke it in half off a ramp, but the hub never failed after years of "kid abuse"...
I grew up riding a 15 year old Columbia 3 speed with an internal hub. It was a heavy beast.
Those were probably all sturmey archer or shimano. Sturmey had good years and bad years. At it's best it was better than the shimano. Over time the shimano tended to get better and always be reliable. Hence, Shimano survives. Sturmey is a very interesting history of business mistakes.
Yes, hub gears used to be everywhere, and proved to be pretty sturdy in general. Kid's bikes had them for good reasons, as did a great many utilitarian and commuting bikes. Derailleurs certainly have their place, but they have many drawbacks.
I thought the e-shifting was discontinued on the Shimano...I'll have to check on that.
Shimano Alfine with belt drive and disc brakes = the perfect commuter bike. 11 years and going strong with the only maintenance was the first oil change (to clean metal splints etc) and a couple of tire changes.