@@jebb125 The Boeing-MD merger kept the Boeing name, but fired Boeing management and replaced them with MD managers. The same toxic management culture which caused MD to tank has been running the show at Boeing ever since.
@@nyandyn I know you said that I just don’t understand how it’s lacking. If we’re talking about enough buttons for proper sim, it has enough (for A10). I’ve mapped everything you could possibly mapped onto the grip that you would on an A10 grip. I suppose more buttons would be nice, but it’s certainly not lacking.
Very nice video. Surprisingly good, actually. Only nitpicky thing would be to make sure audio levels are constant throughout the video using the post software so that it's more professional and consistent to the viewer/listener. Content was good. Your voice is pleasing and the editing was well done. Yep, you're only going to get better so I look forward to what you review next. Cheers.
I love my WW throttle for the most part. I almost went for the Virpil but I liked the WW stick better so I got the set. There are a couple things about the WW throttle that I'm not crazy about but it's more personal preference than an actual fault. As everyone can see, the WW Orion 2 throttle is set up to emulate an FA-18. This is all well and good... if you're flying an FA-18, which I frequently do. But I also fly an F-16, F-15, F-14, A-10, and a variety of space sims. All this to say that I wish the throttle wasn't quite so specific sometimes. In that way, I would prefer the Virpil device. Also, some of the controls are put in rather non-ergonomic locations. Whenever I take off with the throttle at max, I have to reach around the throttle grips to get to my landing gear and flap switches. Those could have been placed better. Like I said, mostly personal preference. All in all, I love the thing. I originally had the FA-18 grips but have since installed the F-15EX grips so between that and the F-16EX stick, I have more than enough hats and switches for pretty much any aircraft, including the AH-64 Apache. And I can totally do a complete HOTAS setup for any space sim. The grips are all metal and feel great. The hats and switches are high quality and very precise for the most part, although the push buttons on the F-15EX grips are very small and sometimes hard to find and press. Also, the very left hand hat switch doesn't really have any kind of "hat" on it so it can be a bit awkward to move it directionally. In fact, when I first installed these grips, I didn't even realize it was a hat. I thought it was a button (I believe that is what the real F-15E throttle has). What I really like about the entire setup is that there are enough buttons and hats that I can cover every HOTAS function and also have enough hats left over that I can map some of the most important MFD switches to the HOTAS so I don't have to take my hand off the stick and point and click with the mouse to change the radar range. I'm hoping to have the WW MIP soon so I won't have to even do that anymore. Anyway, that's my take on the WW Orion 2 throttle. I have never actually tried the Virpil device so I can't say one way or the other. The WW isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.
Keep in mind Winwing did not design that grip. It's an exact 1:1 replica of F/A-18C throttle, of course a design that had millions of tax dollars poured into it will feel more ergonomic than one designed pretty much from scratch (only slightly inspired by Su-35) by a sim peripheral company.
I have both of these (and a few others too). One thing I really like about the Winwing is that the 3 position switches actually give 3 different button outputs, meaning each change will always give one button changing to off and another changing to on. On Thrustmaster (and I think Virpil too), the middle position is generally just the other two inputs being off (with no other explicit input going on), which requires somewhat special support from DCS modules' bindings to work properly. It's also really nice that the Winwing software so easily allows mapping the rotary controllers to addition axes too.
So they're still rotary controllers, but they can be mapped as axes. Interesting, since with Virpil you can map the access to buttons. I wonder if there's a way to do the opposite in Virpil too. That's literally my least favorite thing about it, followed by what you said with the 3 pos switches.
Once you get used to all the hats on the CM3 it's extremely useful for binding a lot of things needed for modern jets (F18, A10CII, etc.) I use the center push button hat next to the joystick as a modifier button in DCS for even more binds on the throttle.
@Colin_from_Scotlandshire Interesting. The small number of buttons on the throttle is exactly why I'm not interested in the Winwing. Differing needs I suppose.
Nice review, I appreciate the discussion of internals and it's always great to see honest discussions about issues (without it too much drama, more presentation of issue, what was done to fix it, and so on).
I fly in VR and found the layout of the Virpil to be much better to manage. Since you have to go by feel a lot. If I was running of a monitor with trackir I can see the win wing being nice and useful.
Heads up US peeps, Virpil is hit with the Belarus sanctions even though it's distribution center is lithuania... and I had to pay extra through UPS to get it shipped sadly
In EU Virpil is actually cheaper due to the VAT and import fees on goods from China. The WW support on the EU store also seems to be worse as there are a lot of bad experiences shared in the r/hotas community.
Love my Virpil CM3 throttle, which I don't think is much different than the CM2. I mostly flight sim with mine, and it's been a great choice for a variety of aircraft. Great review!
Manual throttle detents are nice plus the height of the throttle grips are great for the CM3. That's really the only difference. I run the CM2 and there shorter and no afterburner detent. So, in the Viper I rely on the dent click noise in the cockpit. To know where my throttle is located without having to look down.
While I've only extremely limited experience with WW gear (used the Orion HOTAS once on a buddy's PC), I do own the Virpil CM3 and I will say this: - The throttle axes' action and precision are incredible - it's a definite step up from the WHT I've used before and I still think the WHT is pretty impressive already. - overall build quality is extremely high - which makes some of the less impressive components stand out a bit. Namely the four red toggle switches on the base and the downright flimsy feeling ring-finger slider on the grip. But to see the difference in quality (and price) you need only open up both the VPC and the WHT and take a peek inside. VPC's interior is so much cleaner and there's not a trace of hot-glue or anything like that in there. - adjustable detents and fingerlifts are a very nice upgrade over the WHT. They do require a bit of fiddling and axis-customization and for certain games, you'll still be left with a bit of a compromise. IL-2's 109s and 190s for example switch from combat to emergency power at around 80% and 85%, so you won't be able to set up your throttle to match both planes exactly. But I see this more as a shortcoming in IL-2's keymapper. - while I do agree that the grips are a bit overloaded with buttons and hats, I'm finding myself getting used to the new layout after three days of ownership. Having come from the WHT, the difference is quite pronounced - especially in the thumb-area of the grip, because the WHT has way fewer controls there and its switches in that area are so unique in feel and action. The VPC's are a bit more generic and too similar to each other (the two rear thumb-hats in particular). Still: This seems to be more a matter of getting used to the new layout/ergos, because I find it less noticeable even now after only three days of ownership. - grip shape is vastly different from the WHT's and required me to alter my throttle mount to find a comfortable position for the new throttle. I think VPC may have overdone it a bit with their "hand-shaped" type of grip, which doesn't offer as much flexbility WRT throttle placement on your mount. You really need to adjust the throttle's position (or your seating position) to grab this thing as it's meant to be grabbed. Not so much the case on the WHT. I find that it's more comfortable to grab the VPC from above and with my VKB mount, that meant I had to take the mount apart to increase its overall length. The VPC definitely didn't work for me with the mount set up like I had it for my WHT. All in all, I'd still highly recommend the VPC if your budget allows for it. I was also looking at WW, but since I'd heard some disturbing stuff about their controller SW potentially containing spy-ware (not sure if that's true) *and* because it would've been a major pain in the butt (and costly) to import their stuff into the EU *and* since I really prefer the VPC's generic nature over a replica throttle, I went with Virpil. If you're on a little tighter budget, I'd also still recommend the WHT. Yes: The slew-control is a joke and it's not as high quality as the VPC, but for the €200 I paid for mine, it's still very good value for money and a huge step-up from the TWCS I've used before it.
I personally have 2 of winwing's throttles, pretty much the entire VKB line of stuff and a thustamster hotas warthog. My advice is do not buy the thrustmaster warthog stick. The throttle on the other hand I actually really like. It is smooth, all of the buttons feel of adaquate quality, and unlike the stick, it has lasted me well over 11 years. The stick broke in 2 months. And I don't even want to get into what I went through to get it repaired. But I really enjoy the warthog throttle a lot. My current 2 main throttles are the WW orion 2, and the WW super taurus. I use the super taurus for my f-18 cockpit which is really nice since its a 1 to 1 replica. I do not recomend it to anyone other than those who are building 1 to 1 scale cockpits as its too specialized. The Orion however is very versitile. It allows for the f-16 handle, the f-18 handle, and a helicopter attachment. In other words its moduler similar to most joysticks. And honestly I see no other company doing that. And not only that, but its far cheaper than the virpil. My buddy has all virpil gear and I honestly couldn't say 1 was better than the other in raw quality. They are both fantastic. My only issues I have with the virpil are the same I have with the warthog which is not enough levers for wwii planes. The 2 cliders on the side of the birpil are really nice when your axis include: Manifold pressure (throttle), RPM, Fuel mixture, Oil radiators, Water radiators. All needing their sepparate axis. Unfortunately there is almost no one making WWII throttles. A few projects, but those controls are all needed for some aircraft which is why pairing the orion 2 with the ww takov panel gives you 4 of those levers. Plus the 2 throttle handles. So far it has been the more versatile of the 2 in my opinion for a far lower price in the US. Actually its price is similar to the warthog which is leaps and bounds lower in quality. I will say that win wing's software sucks. It actually causes delays in imput and inconsistancy in button inputs. It is literally unfunctional to me and I just could not use it. Which is not ideal since I have the MIP setup aswell so I cannot actually utilize a bit part of that. Now that being said I do fly in VR so while it was nice to use the nose hold to press buttons and see what is happening on the panel, it isn't a waist either. But something to note about WW software. It also was really slow. If there was an area that included spyware I would be suspicious of their software. The hardware on the other hand seems fine. Its literally the best out there asside from the boutique real training gear like redbird.
I hVe a Virpil CM3 throttle. It has the New detend levers with adjustable detends. One thing that Looks very different compared to your cm2 is the electronics and cables inside. It Looks much better and cleaner on my cm3.
The virpil does 1:1 map to the F18, by using hats push functions as momentary. The only issue with the 1:1 mapping is the radar elevation is swapped with the autothrottle button in its position. I was hoping you would have covered the sensors in each, their resolution, throw of the throttle, and total sensor positions in that throw.
Nice, good to know. The F16 throttle handle is also a 1-to-1 with a few extra buttons which is nice as well. Ah, you’re right that would’ve been a great way to break down the sensors. Might throw that together in a follow up vid as that shouldn’t be too hard! Thanks for the suggestion.
Appreciate the video but as a few others have echoed I don’t think this was a fair comparison. Comparing WW most current version throttle vs Virpils last gen throttle. It should have been the CM3 for this to be a bit more “fair” but even then they are inherently two completely different throttle designs. WW goes for replica style design while Virpil is more multi-purpose design. Again, two totally different design concepts. That said, if you plan to fly multiple aircraft in DCS or fly both flight sim and space sims, Virpil cm3 is absolutely the best bang for your buck due to its versatility, tons of buttons/switches, and great build quality. If you only fly DCS and one or maybe two jets like the 16 or 18, WW is going to give you the better 1:1 controls experience if that’s what you’re lookin for.
Considering I'm not sponsored by either company I found it hard to justify buying a CM3 for the sake of making a review. Just had a lot of people ask me for comparison on the HOTAS subreddit. I point out in the start of the video that this is a CM2 comparison.
1:23 Important note: While the Virpil doesn't have VAT "on import" since it comes from inside the EU, you DO have to pay VAT when you buy it, and the website prices are listed _without VAT included_. The VAT will be added during the payment process, and raises the price substantially. The only real difference to the WinWing in this sense is that you can easily pay the VAT during the payment process when buying the Virpil, whereas you'll have to pay the VAT on the WinWing separately to the customs (or let your postal service handle it, whatever).
Have a full Virpil Flight setup, but got my Nephew and Son Winwing Orion 2 setups....Orion 2 is amazing kit! Like my Virpil stick setup better, but that Orion throttle beats the Virpil easily, IMHO. Just the layout is so much better, nevermind the much less chunky grips. Not to say the Virpil is bad at all, but the WW seems just better. And yeah, the WW software is much easier to use.
I am ready to pick up a new throttle, I have an X-56 now, but the joystick broke a lever switch on it, so I replaced it with a Winwing F-16ex stick and I was really surprised at how nice it is, so I was really on the fence about picking up either a Winwing or a Virpil throttle and I think your video helped me, I think I'm going with the Winwing. Great video, thanks!
Virpil is top notch quality. That said, I am a stickler for replica HOTAS’s for my aircraft. At least the throttle and stick grips. I have a bit of everything except VKB. My HOTAS’: Real Simulator FSSB-R3 Lightning Base Real Simulator F-16 Grip Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM2 Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM3 Virpil 200 mm extension Virpil F-14 Grip TM F-18 Grip TM Warthog (stick & Throttle) (my 1st replica HOTAS). WinWing Orion 2 Throttle w/ F-18 grip WinWing Orion 2 Throttle W/ F-16 grip WinWing hasn’t let me down so far. Out of everything, my nicest bit of kit is definitely the Real Simulator FSSB base. I just bought the Virpil CM3. My only gripe with the cm2 is that with that very long 200mm extension any bouncing or lack of precise movements due to rebounding can become large deviations. The cm3 clutch should definitely fix that issue.
One thing that annoys me with my Orion 2 is the placement of controls above/behind the throttle handles. For example, in a full throttle takeoff you have to reach behind and under the throttle handle to raise landing gear.
Exactly. Not the most ergonomic setup, to be sure. These days when I’m taking off, as soon as I put the throttle to max, even before I release the brakes, I find the gear switch so I can raise the gear asap without having to fumble around for the switch whilst trying to keep the plane in the air.
Where do you recommend binding the Zoom for DCS on the WinWing Throttle? This is extremely important to me. Could you maybe even include it in a future video? Major thanks.
Look forward to more content on your sim rig. This was a comprehensive and to the point video which would be great for anyone trying to pick which throttle to use.
Both of the guys in my formation team have had winwing stuff go out on them within a month, over 100 dollars in shipping to have it sent back for repair. one of them did it and the second unit failed within a week.
That's really crazy I've had WW Orion 2 base with f18 hotas for more than 6 months and have already put over 500 hrs on it and the ONLY issue I've had is the cord you plug into the pc on both the throttle and stick base wiggling it's way out of the base just enough to not read my inputs but I just plug it back in and in under 5 seconds I'm right back in the flight like nothing happened (one time I even notched a missile while plugging it back in lol)
EU VAT depends on country, but it's commonly around 20-22%. For build quality it would have been nice to see the internals. Designs with parts that can easily be self-serviced are some of the things VKB and Virpil are known for nowadays. It would have been interesting to see how Winwing stacks up on that front.
Another commenter asked for a thorough comparison of sensor range to throw and I was considering making a follow up vid. Might throw this in there as well. Thank you for the suggestion.
I did the math for both WW and Virpil last year ... I *think* Virpil have reduced their prices slightly since then, so this might not be accurate any longer, but: I'm pretty sure that without finger-lifts, the Orion 2 would've been around €400, all in (perhaps slightly more to cover the carrier's "handling charge") while the Virpil would've been around €500. These days, the Virpil is ~€450 and €404 or so during their X-Mas sale when I bought. Since they sell EU to EU, I had zero additional cost beyond what I paid them. With WW, shipping is a little more complicated and costly. In my country, VAT is 19%, which you pay on the sum of product cost and shipping cost. Plus that "handling fee" I mentioned which the carriers charge for taking care of import duty stuff for you. I ordered a Delanclip-set last year from the UK (~60 GBP item cost) and handling fee was a whopping €20 on that.
The Winwing button placement, just the warthog throttle, seems totally random. This probably makes total sense in the aircraft they are used in, but in gaming it is very unintuitive and hard to find input bindings that make sense. The biggest problem I see is that many cockpit games tend to profit from VR and are more and more played in VR, and you can't really use such complex arrays without looking up the inputs from time to time. So I think an orderly arrangement is really important here. I also have troubles with the warthog throttle without VR, as there are so many element like 2 way switches (momentary and non-momentary), 3-way switches, single buttons, etc. When all I want is really an orderly aligned set of as many buttons as possible. Like the 6 ones on the virpil, but instead of all the other stuff i would just want like 8-10 buttons. Additionally 2 axis, 2 encoders etc. and you should be mostly set.
True. I have the Virpil CM3 and im in DCS VR. Don`t think the winwing layout would work for me since I wouldn`t be able to find the buttons and switches fast enough.
I use virpil and winwing gear and have owned the CM2 throttle and currently Own the CM3. The Hat switch on the rotary ring dial is actually a Physical 8 Way, but it defaults as a 4 way in set up. You need to set it up as an 8 way in the VPC Configuration Tool, However if You know what you are doing you can set up any Physical 4way hat with Push into an 8 way with push as well using the VPC Configuration Tool. The CM2/3 Throttle has 6 Axis; two for the throttle, one for the Flaps lever, two on the Analogue Ministick, and 1 for the Slider Axis. The 5 way mode dial does not need to be programed as a mode switch. The VPC Configuration tool allows you a lot of customization and You only use it to configure flash and test your device it does not run in the back ground like wingwing's SimApPro. Most of the members of my squad use Winwing Virpil or Both (I use the winwing TO and C Panels). My squadmates have had more problems with Wingwing than Virpil, However I myself had have problems with virpil. The rotary encoder ring can come loose and pop off and the 8 way hat can get "hammered" into the post causing it to NOT hit all 8 ways, This can be fixed with some lock tight and piece of a heavy paper clip as a spacer. My the flip down trigger on my CM2 Stick broke but Virpil overnight me a replacement. Between the CM2 and CM3 throttles The CM3 has more "Throw" due to longer handles than the CM2. The CM2 has a superior Throttle lock (Bolt action style) than the CM3 (Slider). The CM3 has the detent kits. One thing people may overlook is the Feel of the Controller in your hand and how Comfortable it is to use.
It is cool that you have both to give your input on them both. Thank You for that. When I first went to buy new gear I went to WinWing I don't know or understand why but I made a account and the account became broken somehow and it would not allow me to fix it or ORDER. I sent so many Support tickets in and got ZERO replies. I started to see other reports of less then positive reviews of support problems and then Others that were taken care of in a flash. Because of my personal problems with them never answering one support ticket request to given my money for gear I left and went to VIRPIL. I now have all VIRPIL gear and I love them all. Helicopter Collective with VPC SharKA 50 Grip and Mongoos T-50CM3 Throttle and Switch box 1 and VPC WarBRD base with Constellation Grip. I enjoyed your Honest Review and will say I am very happy with my VIRPIL Gear. I do not understand why WinWing has a hit and miss support system taking care of customers. Glad you had no Problems with them. OH I also use MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals Because I think They are the best in their Class.
I play in VR, I don't think I would use those controls in front of the WW throttle, having to go over or around the handle seems complicated without looking. The Virpil has more buttons and switches at reach if I just let go and lower my hand. I think for VR players Virpil is the way to go.
My exp with VKB today "I guess the proper name for the switch in question is a "Trigger switch" yes? now all I need is how to replace the switch i can find nothing on youtue on our VKB's forum. I'm not too pleased on how VKB expects me to change the trigger without instructions is that too much to expect??? how about you take all my VKB products in trade for a WINWING or VPRILE ...,.. ARE YOU GOING TO STAND BEHIND YOUR youtube WHAT!... AT 74 I THINK I CAN HANDLE REMOVING A BUNCH OF SCREWS IF THAT WHAT YOU WANT ME TO DO PROBABLY CROSS-THREAD THEM AND RUIN THE THROTTLE" coulden type I so pissed VKB wrong choice
Awesome reviews, short, simple, to the point and very informative! I have been looking at the Virpil setup but trying to decide on just text descriptions isn't easy at all, so being able to watch you describe each button and position was very helpful. In addition to that I had not heard of WinWing before, so finding out about another option out there was great! One of hte challenges I've run into with Virpil is while they do ahve an US site now, they always seem to be on back-order which is quite frustrating. I haven't' been impressed with VKB either, and my poor old X56 while is OK, it's getting some slop in it so it'll be nice to repalce it with a better quality. Looking forward to future comparison/reviews, this one was very well done!
Man I switched from an X-55 to a VPC Constellation and CM Throttle about a year ago. Just finally got around to setting it all up and getting some actual hands on time with the new stick and throttle the last few weeks. It's hard to describe how big a step up it feels.
The information about European purchases is incorrect, at least at present time. Don't know about the time when the video was made. But Winwing now has an European site with prices including tax and free delivery. On the other hand Virpil stated prices get VAT added on checkout, fortunately they recently started offering shipping (for orders over 100 EUR) which they didn't before.
I'm currently using the TWCS but may soon buy one of these two (if the TECS does not come out soon). After watching this video, the Orion 2 looks more promising. But I have one concern. Currently I use the wheel on the left side of the TWCS for zooming in and out in DCS, and I want to do the same thing with a new throttle. Problem with the Orion 2 is that it does not have such a wheel on the throttle itself but the Virpil does have one. On the Orion, I would have to use one of the two grey axes on the base for zooming in. But can these two base-axes be reached easily when the hand is on the throttle itself? Probably not. So I guess that with the Orion I would lose the ability to quickly zoom in and out at any time without taking my hand from the throttle?
There's an axis on the back of the Orion 2 your middle finger can control that flips up or down, then goes to center. You can map it to zoom very easily.
I've used the TWCS, then the WHT and now the Virpil, and the best zoom in/out control on any of the three was the TWCS's pinky dial. You *can* use the ring-finger slider on the VPC for that (it does have a center notch) but I find it a bit too light to the touch and thus prone to accidental input. If they put a stiffer control on there (like a wheel or dial) or made the slider a bit "stiffer", it would be perfect for zoom. Another alternative on the VPC might be the two-way + push hat under your pinky - if you can set your game to accept button-presses to zoom in/out. The push on that hat might be useful to reset to default zoom. You also might be able to set up the pinky encoder wheel on the VPC for this task, but out of the box, I've not gotten it to work (in IL-2, haven't tried DCS yet). Those sliders on the WW base, in theory, work great for zoom as well, but I found I never used the one on the WHT, since you need to take your hand off the grip to properly work that slider. You could probably also use the VPC's flaps handle for zoom, but that too is in a similar location as on the WHT, so not super easily manipulated with your hand on the grip.
❤❤❤ vers Nice video..congrats bro.🎉...i use to fly choppers in arma 3...and attack choppa in DCS with rhino x-56 OR t-16000 twcs....Last year i was thinking about bying one of those 2 monster....your video help me a lot
having used both assemblies for DCS, i would agree with most of your statements. I have however switched completely to Virpil for one main reason. Although 99% folks in my squadron use Winwing and have never had issues with their HOTAS's, I on the otherhand have had nothing but. the highhats on the stick went completely out twice on both the orion 1 and orion 2 that replaced it. The right throttle stopped funtioning on the orion 2 throttle as well as the radar inclination/declination switch and a plethora of other issues that occured all within months of recieving them. although Winwings customer service is good (at best and once you have taken weeks to prove that it is a manufactures defect by sending photos and videos of the issue) it takes weeks to get replacement parts in from them and even then you have to not only pay shipping of the new part but custom fees as well. last part that was sent to me was a small circuit board for the TDC slew that was the size of a quarter that cost me $64 in shipping and custom costs and took 3 weeks to get to me. I have now owned my Virpil Hotas assembly for the same time frame as both my orion 1 and orion 2 and have had no issue what-so-ever, so i can't attest to Virplil customer support. There are two things i prefered the winwing over the virpil. The first is the threeway switches as opposed to the twoway on/off switches on the virpil. second is the software. Although the virpil software is a much more powerfull tool compaired to winwings Simpro, it is not very user intuitive and takes some research to even have a base understanding on how it works. i wish there was a way to replace the metal switches on the virpil with threeways.
Waste of money for Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen when a Razor keypad works better for no look operation and setting up rudder control if using something like a Warthog stick that has no twist for rudder...
Agree that in general, with how often you fluctuate between fwd/back thrust in 6dof. If you're wanting to use a device specifically for 6dof games, left stick is just the better call
I use my Orion 2 as a daily driver 'general' throttle. I have the finger lifts; but opted out of using the center detent, so its just the detent before AB and the hard stop before the engine cutoff switch. fantastic for Elite, SW:S, DCS, IL2, MSFS and even Kerbal Space Program. Have the Orion 2 stick base with the F16 EX stick. I really wish Winwing would release an update that allowed the F16 EX sticks vibration to work by any rumble call a game makes so it would work in other titles....
a little update on orion 2, there is now a european warehouse based in germany, and the thing costs 220 euro or 235 dollars. A very good choice if you ask me!
The throttle with the paddle in front for use as the rudder is the winning product. As far as I am concerned if the throttle can't also handle the rudder as well it is a loser!
sorry Wingwing Smokes Virpil winwing just caters to us DCS players so maybe MSFS is good with Virpil not sure but you can see the buttons that is what kills virpil in DCS sorry Virpil my $1550 went to buy all Winwing and because I'm brand loyal that's where im at now. maybe later Virpil will get it who knows.
I have the Virpil CM3 and im super happy with it. Im in VR and the cleaner layout of the virpil hotas works great with that. Hard to find the buttons and switches when they are all over the place. In the end it`s personal preference. Either way, virpils build quality is top notch.
VAT in e.g. Germany is 19% and some EU countries it is even higher. That makes the cost for EU players almost equal to Virpil. 340,16$ WingWing Orion2 Throttle incl. VAT19% -> 314,27€ EURO 349,95€ Virpil MongooseT-50CM3 Throttle incl. VAT19% So, there is just a ~35€ difference between the two products given current exchange rates on 2023-05-21 and including 19% VAT. Therefore, it depends even more on what you want to do with those control input devices. If you just want to sim-fly F18 or F16 in DCS, you are probably better off with WingWing. If you like to have something usable in various simulator games, Virpil has an edge to a degree. But yea, he said that in the video already. Nothing new to be said here.
Virpil absolutely makes you pay VAT in Europe, as they are required. It differs by country, usually somewhere around 20% of the base price and shipping costs. The difference is that you pay your VAT directly when ordering at Virpil's EU shop. With WinWing, you yourself are the importter and must pay VAT upon delivery or shortly thereafter.
I just received my Winwing Orion 2 that I chose over the TM Warthog. My main use will be MSFS. To my deception, I just found out that there is no default settings for MSFS on the Winwing, which makes it a nightmare to set up. Does anyone have a set up they can share? I would also like to set it up for IL-2, which doesn’t come default. Thank you
"Altitude"! LMAO Also, as an electronic component engineer, I appreciate that WinWing went the extra mile on switch feel/travel/force selection and may have worked with switch manufacturers to improve upon what was available in stock form. Hats off to WinWing (pun intended)!
The biggest thing missing is……shipping is like $40-50 to USA. Winwing’s pricing isn’t too bad but the shipping is brutal. Especially if you can’t afford to buy a lot of their products at once. 50 bucks for shipping each time is pretty rough.
Very good tutorial on the hotas throttle systems. ❓ Right now I'm using the TM 16000M Euro fighter setup. Can I get the win wing F-16 throttle until I can save enough to get the stick and continue to use the TM joystick while using the wind wing F-16 throttle. Hope you're following the premise. I'm sure you are. I'm on disability and I have well over 1500 hours on the throttle and I've done all the maintenance I can on it. It has dead spots in it and the actuator is sealed rather than the older model where you can pop it open and clean it. All I can do is open it up and blow it out. It improves 70% but now within 100 hours it's almost useless. So for now I have to assign the throttle to another axis until find me a better throttle system. I applied the F-14 tomcat and split engine is very good for the engines are spread apart wide. Hornet the engines are so close. It's not a major factor. Appreciate any feedback that you can give me. Thank you so much. The tutorial was definitely priceless. Thank you! Definitely going to save this one. Take care 🕊️
I'm terrible, brought my ''VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Throttle'' over 2 yrs ago and just haven't got round to using it yet, jeez it'll be a museum piece before im done.
I got the CM3 out of a bit of hype, as someone who hadn't owned Virpil products before. That hype meant I didn't look into the functionality that well, which I really regret. Hate is a heavy word, but I've got to admit I really hate that basically every button and switch on the Virpil throttle is momentary and mushy. The momentary part doesn't help with DCS and the mushy part just bugs me out. With my Thrustmaster Warthog throttle I had a similar cable problem as you mentioned you had with your CM2, so Thrustmaster provided me with instructions to open up the throttle quadrant and see if the corresponding connection was the problem. The connector had indeed come out of the socket, so that was an easy fix.
I have the Virpil Mongoose CM2 Base and stick. The base is very good but the stick is not, very plasticky so i use the TM Warthog F-16 stick on the Virpil base. As i am going to order a winwing throttle i wonder if the winwing sticks fits on the virpil base, do you know?
Well, prices are not like that. Check prices after taxes (for country) and after delivery. Of course better quality...but at double price than Thrustmaster Warthog.
Can the WW faceplates be removed relatively easy? Reason I ask, is I have a laser engraver and can make custom faceplates for my TM and other HOTAS brands. Can't tell if WW makes that possible.
As an expert in both, the Virpil looks nearly like an F15 throttle, the other is a good F18 throttle, and I agree with the WinWing throttle designed by McDonnell Douglas!
Which one has a longer throttle travel distance? I'm sorry if I missed you saying this in the video, but I really didn't hear any information about it. It's quite important because a longer travel distance would give me more precision, so I'd really love to know this.
Squadrons player here. Currently on hotasx52 looking to upgrade. Tell what stick and throttle i should get? Are there any hotas available that have haptics?
I purchased a Virpil throttle and I regret it. I love the feel of my Virpil stick but I don't like the throttle and both have had issues. My Stick and base failed after a few months and a wiring assembly had to be shipped to me to fix it. My throttle arrived with a defective button and a new one had to be shipped to me. I've had numerous experiences with the throttle totally being unrecognized out of the blue forcing me to have to re-setup the Virpil software and then re-map my controls in the sims. It's quite frustrating. I've had quite a few issues requiring Virpil support and I do give them credit for assisting me each time but it has been a frustrating experience. I also don't like how crowded the throttle feels. It's hard to use buttons behind the throttle axis because of the way the throttle arc is designed. I also find it difficult to use some buttons on the front of the throttle grip as it is too bulky for my hand. To be honest, I would rather have kept my old and still performing well Saitek X55 throttle. It may not feels as solid as the metal base Virpil but it actually performed better. I'm interested in the WinWing products now but to be honest it would just be easier to buy a Thrustmaster throttle due to the fact that if it turns out to be defective, all I have to do is drive down the road and replace it. Until these foreign devices become available in North American stores (I'm in Canada) I think I will pass on them in the future.
I have a WInWing Orion. Button 10 failed and it is cost prohibitive to replace it as it comes from China. Repairability is another consideration to keep in mind.
I have Virpil throthle and I don't like it. It's not comfortable for my hand, my fingers lays on hats, and I basically have costant fear to unintentionally press somthing
With your throttle handle split comparison, I feel was it a little unfair on the WinWing, If you place your hand on the throttle naturally and reach down with the thumb, it is an easy unlock using the thumbnail, then using pad of thumb to lock.
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Well, to be fair, the Virpil throttle was designed by Virpil while WinWing throttle was designed by McDonnell Douglas.
Is that suppose to be a credit to WinWing? lol McDonnell Douglas has abit of a tarnished reputation :P
@@lyianx how so? since they have been a boeing company since 1997,
@@jebb125 The Boeing-MD merger kept the Boeing name, but fired Boeing management and replaced them with MD managers. The same toxic management culture which caused MD to tank has been running the show at Boeing ever since.
@@lyianx I mean it kind of IS a company that maneufactored real FIGHTER JETS. But I don't know anything aout that, I can't say nothing haha.
@@lyianx A tarnished reputation due to terrible management not engineering.
Awesome video. I really wish VKB would release the TECS and add more options to the throttle game.
Yeah we seriously need mid price throttle. Right now, you have to buy either entry level TWCS or 400+usd highend throttle.
And Winwing needs to come up with Strike Eagle grips to give A-10C and F-15E pilots enough buttons on the throttle grips.
@@nyandyn What's wrong with using the F18 grip?
@@Procxlite I literally said it in the comment above: not enough buttons on the throttle grips.
@@nyandyn I know you said that I just don’t understand how it’s lacking. If we’re talking about enough buttons for proper sim, it has enough (for A10). I’ve mapped everything you could possibly mapped onto the grip that you would on an A10 grip. I suppose more buttons would be nice, but it’s certainly not lacking.
Very nice video. Surprisingly good, actually. Only nitpicky thing would be to make sure audio levels are constant throughout the video using the post software so that it's more professional and consistent to the viewer/listener. Content was good. Your voice is pleasing and the editing was well done. Yep, you're only going to get better so I look forward to what you review next. Cheers.
Username checks out
I love my WW throttle for the most part. I almost went for the Virpil but I liked the WW stick better so I got the set. There are a couple things about the WW throttle that I'm not crazy about but it's more personal preference than an actual fault. As everyone can see, the WW Orion 2 throttle is set up to emulate an FA-18. This is all well and good... if you're flying an FA-18, which I frequently do. But I also fly an F-16, F-15, F-14, A-10, and a variety of space sims. All this to say that I wish the throttle wasn't quite so specific sometimes. In that way, I would prefer the Virpil device. Also, some of the controls are put in rather non-ergonomic locations. Whenever I take off with the throttle at max, I have to reach around the throttle grips to get to my landing gear and flap switches. Those could have been placed better.
Like I said, mostly personal preference. All in all, I love the thing. I originally had the FA-18 grips but have since installed the F-15EX grips so between that and the F-16EX stick, I have more than enough hats and switches for pretty much any aircraft, including the AH-64 Apache. And I can totally do a complete HOTAS setup for any space sim. The grips are all metal and feel great. The hats and switches are high quality and very precise for the most part, although the push buttons on the F-15EX grips are very small and sometimes hard to find and press. Also, the very left hand hat switch doesn't really have any kind of "hat" on it so it can be a bit awkward to move it directionally. In fact, when I first installed these grips, I didn't even realize it was a hat. I thought it was a button (I believe that is what the real F-15E throttle has).
What I really like about the entire setup is that there are enough buttons and hats that I can cover every HOTAS function and also have enough hats left over that I can map some of the most important MFD switches to the HOTAS so I don't have to take my hand off the stick and point and click with the mouse to change the radar range. I'm hoping to have the WW MIP soon so I won't have to even do that anymore.
Anyway, that's my take on the WW Orion 2 throttle. I have never actually tried the Virpil device so I can't say one way or the other. The WW isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.
Keep in mind Winwing did not design that grip. It's an exact 1:1 replica of F/A-18C throttle, of course a design that had millions of tax dollars poured into it will feel more ergonomic than one designed pretty much from scratch (only slightly inspired by Su-35) by a sim peripheral company.
I have both of these (and a few others too). One thing I really like about the Winwing is that the 3 position switches actually give 3 different button outputs, meaning each change will always give one button changing to off and another changing to on. On Thrustmaster (and I think Virpil too), the middle position is generally just the other two inputs being off (with no other explicit input going on), which requires somewhat special support from DCS modules' bindings to work properly. It's also really nice that the Winwing software so easily allows mapping the rotary controllers to addition axes too.
So they're still rotary controllers, but they can be mapped as axes. Interesting, since with Virpil you can map the access to buttons. I wonder if there's a way to do the opposite in Virpil too. That's literally my least favorite thing about it, followed by what you said with the 3 pos switches.
Do you have a winwing stick as well and if so would you recommend it?
Ive the wingwin f16 Stick i love it and would definetly recommend
I had no luck with winning customer support when my entire throttle quit working. It lights up but not recognized
Once you get used to all the hats on the CM3 it's extremely useful for binding a lot of things needed for modern jets (F18, A10CII, etc.) I use the center push button hat next to the joystick as a modifier button in DCS for even more binds on the throttle.
I had a hard time binding all the A10C buttons on the F/A-18 grip from Winwing... no such issue with Virpil
@Colin_from_Scotlandshire Interesting. The small number of buttons on the throttle is exactly why I'm not interested in the Winwing. Differing needs I suppose.
@@Colin_from_ScotlandshireSame here..
Well, WinWing made me send my defective F-16 stick back to China, AT MY EXPENSE, for nearly $100 USD. Still don't have a working stick.
Nice review, I appreciate the discussion of internals and it's always great to see honest discussions about issues (without it too much drama, more presentation of issue, what was done to fix it, and so on).
I fly in VR and found the layout of the Virpil to be much better to manage. Since you have to go by feel a lot. If I was running of a monitor with trackir I can see the win wing being nice and useful.
I play in VR too, and this isnt an issue for me on the Orion :)
@@Captain_Coleslaw Enjoy your Chinese throttle.
Shame you've referenced the CM3 price but are reviewing the CM2 throttle...
Heads up US peeps, Virpil is hit with the Belarus sanctions even though it's distribution center is lithuania... and I had to pay extra through UPS to get it shipped sadly
In EU Virpil is actually cheaper due to the VAT and import fees on goods from China. The WW support on the EU store also seems to be worse as there are a lot of bad experiences shared in the r/hotas community.
Love my Virpil CM3 throttle, which I don't think is much different than the CM2. I mostly flight sim with mine, and it's been a great choice for a variety of aircraft. Great review!
Manual throttle detents are nice plus the height of the throttle grips are great for the CM3. That's really the only difference. I run the CM2 and there shorter and no afterburner detent. So, in the Viper I rely on the dent click noise in the cockpit. To know where my throttle is located without having to look down.
I own a set of virpil rudder pedals. After buying them i found the "made in Belarus" tag on them. Never again. I'll take made in China first, thanks.
While I've only extremely limited experience with WW gear (used the Orion HOTAS once on a buddy's PC), I do own the Virpil CM3 and I will say this:
- The throttle axes' action and precision are incredible - it's a definite step up from the WHT I've used before and I still think the WHT is pretty impressive already.
- overall build quality is extremely high - which makes some of the less impressive components stand out a bit. Namely the four red toggle switches on the base and the downright flimsy feeling ring-finger slider on the grip. But to see the difference in quality (and price) you need only open up both the VPC and the WHT and take a peek inside. VPC's interior is so much cleaner and there's not a trace of hot-glue or anything like that in there.
- adjustable detents and fingerlifts are a very nice upgrade over the WHT. They do require a bit of fiddling and axis-customization and for certain games, you'll still be left with a bit of a compromise. IL-2's 109s and 190s for example switch from combat to emergency power at around 80% and 85%, so you won't be able to set up your throttle to match both planes exactly. But I see this more as a shortcoming in IL-2's keymapper.
- while I do agree that the grips are a bit overloaded with buttons and hats, I'm finding myself getting used to the new layout after three days of ownership. Having come from the WHT, the difference is quite pronounced - especially in the thumb-area of the grip, because the WHT has way fewer controls there and its switches in that area are so unique in feel and action. The VPC's are a bit more generic and too similar to each other (the two rear thumb-hats in particular).
Still: This seems to be more a matter of getting used to the new layout/ergos, because I find it less noticeable even now after only three days of ownership.
- grip shape is vastly different from the WHT's and required me to alter my throttle mount to find a comfortable position for the new throttle. I think VPC may have overdone it a bit with their "hand-shaped" type of grip, which doesn't offer as much flexbility WRT throttle placement on your mount. You really need to adjust the throttle's position (or your seating position) to grab this thing as it's meant to be grabbed. Not so much the case on the WHT. I find that it's more comfortable to grab the VPC from above and with my VKB mount, that meant I had to take the mount apart to increase its overall length. The VPC definitely didn't work for me with the mount set up like I had it for my WHT.
All in all, I'd still highly recommend the VPC if your budget allows for it. I was also looking at WW, but since I'd heard some disturbing stuff about their controller SW potentially containing spy-ware (not sure if that's true) *and* because it would've been a major pain in the butt (and costly) to import their stuff into the EU *and* since I really prefer the VPC's generic nature over a replica throttle, I went with Virpil.
If you're on a little tighter budget, I'd also still recommend the WHT. Yes: The slew-control is a joke and it's not as high quality as the VPC, but for the €200 I paid for mine, it's still very good value for money and a huge step-up from the TWCS I've used before it.
I personally have 2 of winwing's throttles, pretty much the entire VKB line of stuff and a thustamster hotas warthog. My advice is do not buy the thrustmaster warthog stick. The throttle on the other hand I actually really like. It is smooth, all of the buttons feel of adaquate quality, and unlike the stick, it has lasted me well over 11 years. The stick broke in 2 months. And I don't even want to get into what I went through to get it repaired. But I really enjoy the warthog throttle a lot. My current 2 main throttles are the WW orion 2, and the WW super taurus. I use the super taurus for my f-18 cockpit which is really nice since its a 1 to 1 replica. I do not recomend it to anyone other than those who are building 1 to 1 scale cockpits as its too specialized. The Orion however is very versitile. It allows for the f-16 handle, the f-18 handle, and a helicopter attachment. In other words its moduler similar to most joysticks. And honestly I see no other company doing that. And not only that, but its far cheaper than the virpil. My buddy has all virpil gear and I honestly couldn't say 1 was better than the other in raw quality. They are both fantastic. My only issues I have with the virpil are the same I have with the warthog which is not enough levers for wwii planes. The 2 cliders on the side of the birpil are really nice when your axis include: Manifold pressure (throttle), RPM, Fuel mixture, Oil radiators, Water radiators. All needing their sepparate axis. Unfortunately there is almost no one making WWII throttles. A few projects, but those controls are all needed for some aircraft which is why pairing the orion 2 with the ww takov panel gives you 4 of those levers. Plus the 2 throttle handles. So far it has been the more versatile of the 2 in my opinion for a far lower price in the US. Actually its price is similar to the warthog which is leaps and bounds lower in quality.
I will say that win wing's software sucks. It actually causes delays in imput and inconsistancy in button inputs. It is literally unfunctional to me and I just could not use it. Which is not ideal since I have the MIP setup aswell so I cannot actually utilize a bit part of that. Now that being said I do fly in VR so while it was nice to use the nose hold to press buttons and see what is happening on the panel, it isn't a waist either. But something to note about WW software. It also was really slow. If there was an area that included spyware I would be suspicious of their software. The hardware on the other hand seems fine. Its literally the best out there asside from the boutique real training gear like redbird.
I hVe a Virpil CM3 throttle. It has the New detend levers with adjustable detends. One thing that Looks very different compared to your cm2 is the electronics and cables inside. It Looks much better and cleaner on my cm3.
That’s good to know, I was hoping and assuming on the cm3 that they’d clean that up
I learned a whole lot about throttles in
The virpil does 1:1 map to the F18, by using hats push functions as momentary. The only issue with the 1:1 mapping is the radar elevation is swapped with the autothrottle button in its position.
I was hoping you would have covered the sensors in each, their resolution, throw of the throttle, and total sensor positions in that throw.
Nice, good to know. The F16 throttle handle is also a 1-to-1 with a few extra buttons which is nice as well.
Ah, you’re right that would’ve been a great way to break down the sensors. Might throw that together in a follow up vid as that shouldn’t be too hard! Thanks for the suggestion.
Appreciate the video but as a few others have echoed I don’t think this was a fair comparison. Comparing WW most current version throttle vs Virpils last gen throttle. It should have been the CM3 for this to be a bit more “fair” but even then they are inherently two completely different throttle designs. WW goes for replica style design while Virpil is more multi-purpose design. Again, two totally different design concepts. That said, if you plan to fly multiple aircraft in DCS or fly both flight sim and space sims, Virpil cm3 is absolutely the best bang for your buck due to its versatility, tons of buttons/switches, and great build quality. If you only fly DCS and one or maybe two jets like the 16 or 18, WW is going to give you the better 1:1 controls experience if that’s what you’re lookin for.
Considering I'm not sponsored by either company I found it hard to justify buying a CM3 for the sake of making a review.
Just had a lot of people ask me for comparison on the HOTAS subreddit. I point out in the start of the video that this is a CM2 comparison.
1:23 Important note: While the Virpil doesn't have VAT "on import" since it comes from inside the EU, you DO have to pay VAT when you buy it, and the website prices are listed _without VAT included_. The VAT will be added during the payment process, and raises the price substantially.
The only real difference to the WinWing in this sense is that you can easily pay the VAT during the payment process when buying the Virpil, whereas you'll have to pay the VAT on the WinWing separately to the customs (or let your postal service handle it, whatever).
Have a full Virpil Flight setup, but got my Nephew and Son Winwing Orion 2 setups....Orion 2 is amazing kit! Like my Virpil stick setup better, but that Orion throttle beats the Virpil easily, IMHO. Just the layout is so much better, nevermind the much less chunky grips. Not to say the Virpil is bad at all, but the WW seems just better.
And yeah, the WW software is much easier to use.
I am ready to pick up a new throttle, I have an X-56 now, but the joystick broke a lever switch on it, so I replaced it with a Winwing F-16ex stick and I was really surprised at how nice it is, so I was really on the fence about picking up either a Winwing or a Virpil throttle and I think your video helped me, I think I'm going with the Winwing. Great video, thanks!
Virpil is top notch quality. That said, I am a stickler for replica HOTAS’s for my aircraft. At least the throttle and stick grips.
I have a bit of everything except VKB.
My HOTAS’:
Real Simulator FSSB-R3 Lightning Base
Real Simulator F-16 Grip
Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM2
Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM3
Virpil 200 mm extension
Virpil F-14 Grip
TM F-18 Grip
TM Warthog (stick & Throttle) (my 1st replica HOTAS).
WinWing Orion 2 Throttle w/ F-18 grip
WinWing Orion 2 Throttle W/ F-16 grip
WinWing hasn’t let me down so far.
Out of everything, my nicest bit of kit is definitely the Real Simulator FSSB base. I just bought the Virpil CM3. My only gripe with the cm2 is that with that very long 200mm extension any bouncing or lack of precise movements due to rebounding can become large deviations. The cm3 clutch should definitely fix that issue.
One thing that annoys me with my Orion 2 is the placement of controls above/behind the throttle handles. For example, in a full throttle takeoff you have to reach behind and under the throttle handle to raise landing gear.
Exactly. Not the most ergonomic setup, to be sure. These days when I’m taking off, as soon as I put the throttle to max, even before I release the brakes, I find the gear switch so I can raise the gear asap without having to fumble around for the switch whilst trying to keep the plane in the air.
@@bretttrommler756 Same - And I’m in VR so from the moment I throttle up for takeoff my hand is on the gear switch.
i dont like my CM3... it feels cheap for the price you pay
Where do you recommend binding the Zoom for DCS on the WinWing Throttle? This is extremely important to me. Could you maybe even include it in a future video? Major thanks.
I always put the DCS zoom on the DIAL axis of the throttle base, which is the aft lever. I even use that same axis for zooming in P3D and MSFS.
@@bretttrommler756 Thanks a top for the input!
I have no intrest in flight Sims, nor throttles, but the video was set up in the correct informative way for me to watch. Good job
I like the Virpil more. The "mushy" buttons are non-existing on the mark 3 model.
Look forward to more content on your sim rig. This was a comprehensive and to the point video which would be great for anyone trying to pick which throttle to use.
Both of the guys in my formation team have had winwing stuff go out on them within a month, over 100 dollars in shipping to have it sent back for repair. one of them did it and the second unit failed within a week.
That's really crazy I've had WW Orion 2 base with f18 hotas for more than 6 months and have already put over 500 hrs on it and the ONLY issue I've had is the cord you plug into the pc on both the throttle and stick base wiggling it's way out of the base just enough to not read my inputs but I just plug it back in and in under 5 seconds I'm right back in the flight like nothing happened (one time I even notched a missile while plugging it back in lol)
EU VAT depends on country, but it's commonly around 20-22%.
For build quality it would have been nice to see the internals. Designs with parts that can easily be self-serviced are some of the things VKB and Virpil are known for nowadays. It would have been interesting to see how Winwing stacks up on that front.
Another commenter asked for a thorough comparison of sensor range to throw and I was considering making a follow up vid. Might throw this in there as well. Thank you for the suggestion.
I did the math for both WW and Virpil last year ... I *think* Virpil have reduced their prices slightly since then, so this might not be accurate any longer, but: I'm pretty sure that without finger-lifts, the Orion 2 would've been around €400, all in (perhaps slightly more to cover the carrier's "handling charge") while the Virpil would've been around €500. These days, the Virpil is ~€450 and €404 or so during their X-Mas sale when I bought. Since they sell EU to EU, I had zero additional cost beyond what I paid them. With WW, shipping is a little more complicated and costly.
In my country, VAT is 19%, which you pay on the sum of product cost and shipping cost. Plus that "handling fee" I mentioned which the carriers charge for taking care of import duty stuff for you. I ordered a Delanclip-set last year from the UK (~60 GBP item cost) and handling fee was a whopping €20 on that.
I have a cm3 virpil throttle. The internals are amazing
its not just VAT, its also customs and fees
I hadn't realised the modern war was on such a side difference, suddenly fell like I shouldn't have gotten the F18
The Winwing button placement, just the warthog throttle, seems totally random. This probably makes total sense in the aircraft they are used in, but in gaming it is very unintuitive and hard to find input bindings that make sense.
The biggest problem I see is that many cockpit games tend to profit from VR and are more and more played in VR, and you can't really use such complex arrays without looking up the inputs from time to time. So I think an orderly arrangement is really important here.
I also have troubles with the warthog throttle without VR, as there are so many element like 2 way switches (momentary and non-momentary), 3-way switches, single buttons, etc. When all I want is really an orderly aligned set of as many buttons as possible. Like the 6 ones on the virpil, but instead of all the other stuff i would just want like 8-10 buttons. Additionally 2 axis, 2 encoders etc. and you should be mostly set.
True. I have the Virpil CM3 and im in DCS VR. Don`t think the winwing layout would work for me since I wouldn`t be able to find the buttons and switches fast enough.
I've just upgraded from the Thrustmaster Warthog to the WINWING Orion 2 HOTAS with F-15EX throttle grip.
One of the best video comparing both throttle. Would be great to see you compare base for a joystick between winwing and virpil.
Wow, 40k views in a month! Think you should make more hotas review videos... though the little lungs was some cool post punk tunes.
I use virpil and winwing gear and have owned the CM2 throttle and currently Own the CM3. The Hat switch on the rotary ring dial is actually a Physical 8 Way, but it defaults as a 4 way in set up. You need to set it up as an 8 way in the VPC Configuration Tool, However if You know what you are doing you can set up any Physical 4way hat with Push into an 8 way with push as well using the VPC Configuration Tool. The CM2/3 Throttle has 6 Axis; two for the throttle, one for the Flaps lever, two on the Analogue Ministick, and 1 for the Slider Axis. The 5 way mode dial does not need to be programed as a mode switch. The VPC Configuration tool allows you a lot of customization and You only use it to configure flash and test your device it does not run in the back ground like wingwing's SimApPro. Most of the members of my squad use Winwing Virpil or Both (I use the winwing TO and C Panels). My squadmates have had more problems with Wingwing than Virpil, However I myself had have problems with virpil. The rotary encoder ring can come loose and pop off and the 8 way hat can get "hammered" into the post causing it to NOT hit all 8 ways, This can be fixed with some lock tight and piece of a heavy paper clip as a spacer. My the flip down trigger on my CM2 Stick broke but Virpil overnight me a replacement.
Between the CM2 and CM3 throttles The CM3 has more "Throw" due to longer handles than the CM2. The CM2 has a superior Throttle lock (Bolt action style) than the CM3 (Slider). The CM3 has the detent kits.
One thing people may overlook is the Feel of the Controller in your hand and how Comfortable it is to use.
Wish there was a price point around 250 with build quality like virpil and winwing
Agreed - hoping that's where the VKB TECs fits in
It is cool that you have both to give your input on them both. Thank You for that. When I first went to buy new gear I went to WinWing I don't know or understand why but I made a account and the account became broken somehow and it would not allow me to fix it or ORDER. I sent so many Support tickets in and got ZERO replies. I started to see other reports of less then positive reviews of support problems and then Others that were taken care of in a flash. Because of my personal problems with them never answering one support ticket request to given my money for gear I left and went to VIRPIL. I now have all VIRPIL gear and I love them all. Helicopter Collective with VPC SharKA 50 Grip and Mongoos T-50CM3 Throttle and Switch box 1 and VPC WarBRD base with Constellation Grip. I enjoyed your Honest Review and will say I am very happy with my VIRPIL Gear. I do not understand why WinWing has a hit and miss support system taking care of customers. Glad you had no Problems with them. OH I also use MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals Because I think They are the best in their Class.
I play in VR, I don't think I would use those controls in front of the WW throttle, having to go over or around the handle seems complicated without looking. The Virpil has more buttons and switches at reach if I just let go and lower my hand. I think for VR players Virpil is the way to go.
Great video. I have a F16EX WW grip with Orion2 base. This is probably going to be my next purchase.
My exp with VKB today
"I guess the proper name for the switch in question is a "Trigger switch" yes? now all I need is how to replace the switch i can find nothing on youtue on our VKB's forum. I'm not too pleased on how VKB expects me to change the trigger without instructions is that too much to expect??? how about you take all my VKB products in trade for a WINWING or VPRILE ...,.. ARE YOU GOING TO STAND BEHIND YOUR youtube WHAT!... AT 74 I THINK I CAN HANDLE REMOVING A BUNCH OF SCREWS IF THAT WHAT YOU WANT ME TO DO PROBABLY CROSS-THREAD THEM AND RUIN THE THROTTLE" coulden type I so pissed VKB wrong choice
Awesome reviews, short, simple, to the point and very informative! I have been looking at the Virpil setup but trying to decide on just text descriptions isn't easy at all, so being able to watch you describe each button and position was very helpful.
In addition to that I had not heard of WinWing before, so finding out about another option out there was great! One of hte challenges I've run into with Virpil is while they do ahve an US site now, they always seem to be on back-order which is quite frustrating. I haven't' been impressed with VKB either, and my poor old X56 while is OK, it's getting some slop in it so it'll be nice to repalce it with a better quality.
Looking forward to future comparison/reviews, this one was very well done!
Man I switched from an X-55 to a VPC Constellation and CM Throttle about a year ago. Just finally got around to setting it all up and getting some actual hands on time with the new stick and throttle the last few weeks. It's hard to describe how big a step up it feels.
The information about European purchases is incorrect, at least at present time. Don't know about the time when the video was made.
But Winwing now has an European site with prices including tax and free delivery.
On the other hand Virpil stated prices get VAT added on checkout, fortunately they recently started offering shipping (for orders over 100 EUR) which they didn't before.
I'm currently using the TWCS but may soon buy one of these two (if the TECS does not come out soon). After watching this video, the Orion 2 looks more promising. But I have one concern. Currently I use the wheel on the left side of the TWCS for zooming in and out in DCS, and I want to do the same thing with a new throttle. Problem with the Orion 2 is that it does not have such a wheel on the throttle itself but the Virpil does have one. On the Orion, I would have to use one of the two grey axes on the base for zooming in. But can these two base-axes be reached easily when the hand is on the throttle itself? Probably not. So I guess that with the Orion I would lose the ability to quickly zoom in and out at any time without taking my hand from the throttle?
There's an axis on the back of the Orion 2 your middle finger can control that flips up or down, then goes to center. You can map it to zoom very easily.
I've used the TWCS, then the WHT and now the Virpil, and the best zoom in/out control on any of the three was the TWCS's pinky dial. You *can* use the ring-finger slider on the VPC for that (it does have a center notch) but I find it a bit too light to the touch and thus prone to accidental input. If they put a stiffer control on there (like a wheel or dial) or made the slider a bit "stiffer", it would be perfect for zoom. Another alternative on the VPC might be the two-way + push hat under your pinky - if you can set your game to accept button-presses to zoom in/out. The push on that hat might be useful to reset to default zoom.
You also might be able to set up the pinky encoder wheel on the VPC for this task, but out of the box, I've not gotten it to work (in IL-2, haven't tried DCS yet).
Those sliders on the WW base, in theory, work great for zoom as well, but I found I never used the one on the WHT, since you need to take your hand off the grip to properly work that slider. You could probably also use the VPC's flaps handle for zoom, but that too is in a similar location as on the WHT, so not super easily manipulated with your hand on the grip.
I love my Virpil throttle, I upgraded from an X56 and before that a T16000
❤❤❤ vers Nice video..congrats bro.🎉...i use to fly choppers in arma 3...and attack choppa in DCS with rhino x-56 OR t-16000 twcs....Last year i was thinking about bying one of those 2 monster....your video help me a lot
I really APPRECIATE the "not sponsored by companies".
It's very important, because TH-cam has become a place of knife sellers on TV.
Another plus for the WinWing base is it can be customized with F16 throttle and the KA50 collective as well as the standard F-I8 throttle
question are games you play(for example war thunder sim) even worth that high end quality and price?
There's one very audible difference: The WinWing uses microswitches (clicky), the Virpil sounds like cheap membrane switches.
having used both assemblies for DCS, i would agree with most of your statements. I have however switched completely to Virpil for one main reason. Although 99% folks in my squadron use Winwing and have never had issues with their HOTAS's, I on the otherhand have had nothing but. the highhats on the stick went completely out twice on both the orion 1 and orion 2 that replaced it. The right throttle stopped funtioning on the orion 2 throttle as well as the radar inclination/declination switch and a plethora of other issues that occured all within months of recieving them. although Winwings customer service is good (at best and once you have taken weeks to prove that it is a manufactures defect by sending photos and videos of the issue) it takes weeks to get replacement parts in from them and even then you have to not only pay shipping of the new part but custom fees as well. last part that was sent to me was a small circuit board for the TDC slew that was the size of a quarter that cost me $64 in shipping and custom costs and took 3 weeks to get to me. I have now owned my Virpil Hotas assembly for the same time frame as both my orion 1 and orion 2 and have had no issue what-so-ever, so i can't attest to Virplil customer support. There are two things i prefered the winwing over the virpil. The first is the threeway switches as opposed to the twoway on/off switches on the virpil. second is the software. Although the virpil software is a much more powerfull tool compaired to winwings Simpro, it is not very user intuitive and takes some research to even have a base understanding on how it works. i wish there was a way to replace the metal switches on the virpil with threeways.
Just for the record. I had the exact opposite experience with Virpil. Guess it can happen everywhere.
Waste of money for Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen when a Razor keypad works better for no look operation and setting up rudder control if using something like a Warthog stick that has no twist for rudder...
Agree that in general, with how often you fluctuate between fwd/back thrust in 6dof. If you're wanting to use a device specifically for 6dof games, left stick is just the better call
I use my Orion 2 as a daily driver 'general' throttle. I have the finger lifts; but opted out of using the center detent, so its just the detent before AB and the hard stop before the engine cutoff switch. fantastic for Elite, SW:S, DCS, IL2, MSFS and even Kerbal Space Program. Have the Orion 2 stick base with the F16 EX stick. I really wish Winwing would release an update that allowed the F16 EX sticks vibration to work by any rumble call a game makes so it would work in other titles....
I like winwing better, but the virpil seems easier to use with vr headset? (Easier to distinguish the buttons/controls by touch?)
a little update on orion 2, there is now a european warehouse based in germany, and the thing costs 220 euro or 235 dollars. A very good choice if you ask me!
Virpil 1000000% IMPO Winwing products look home made with cables showing etc
here we are on top construction quality for both.
so I take the one with more buttons which gives me more possibilities.
1:06 "the WingWing is 344 US dollar SHIT and the ... is 420 US dollar SHIT" what???
The exact video I've been looking for thank you
I have no experiance with Winwing. But you can drop a nuke on the Virpil and it will still work fine.
Be careful WinWing throttle buttons doesn't work on elite dangerous. I tried multiple times to get he buttons to register anything
The throttle with the paddle in front for use as the rudder is the winning product. As far as I am concerned if the throttle can't also handle the rudder as well it is a loser!
I'm from the future. VKB STECS STANDARD
How would those compare to VKB STECS ?
Wish they had a right hand version so I could use a lefthand stick
Like the video as soon as snoop dogg popped up for the price reference LOL.
sorry Wingwing Smokes Virpil winwing just caters to us DCS players so maybe MSFS is good with Virpil not sure but you can see the buttons that is what kills virpil in DCS sorry Virpil my $1550 went to buy all Winwing and because I'm brand loyal that's where im at now. maybe later Virpil will get it who knows.
I have the Virpil CM3 and im super happy with it. Im in VR and the cleaner layout of the virpil hotas works great with that. Hard to find the buttons and switches when they are all over the place. In the end it`s personal preference. Either way, virpils build quality is top notch.
now consider stecs wich blows both out of the water
NEITHER... VKB STECS STANDARD OR MAX
worst video cm3 kills all win even the taurus lol
was pretty excited here till I heard star citizen and star wars
VAT in e.g. Germany is 19% and some EU countries it is even higher. That makes the cost for EU players almost equal to Virpil.
340,16$ WingWing Orion2 Throttle incl. VAT19% -> 314,27€ EURO
349,95€ Virpil MongooseT-50CM3 Throttle incl. VAT19%
So, there is just a ~35€ difference between the two products given current exchange rates on 2023-05-21 and including 19% VAT.
Therefore, it depends even more on what you want to do with those control input devices. If you just want to sim-fly F18 or F16 in DCS, you are probably better off with WingWing. If you like to have something usable in various simulator games, Virpil has an edge to a degree. But yea, he said that in the video already. Nothing new to be said here.
Virpil absolutely makes you pay VAT in Europe, as they are required. It differs by country, usually somewhere around 20% of the base price and shipping costs. The difference is that you pay your VAT directly when ordering at Virpil's EU shop. With WinWing, you yourself are the importter and must pay VAT upon delivery or shortly thereafter.
I just received my Winwing Orion 2 that I chose over the TM Warthog. My main use will be MSFS. To my deception, I just found out that there is no default settings for MSFS on the Winwing, which makes it a nightmare to set up. Does anyone have a set up they can share? I would also like to set it up for IL-2, which doesn’t come default. Thank you
"Altitude"! LMAO
Also, as an electronic component engineer, I appreciate that WinWing went the extra mile on switch feel/travel/force selection and may have worked with switch manufacturers to improve upon what was available in stock form. Hats off to WinWing (pun intended)!
Are you going to giveaway these?
#WinWing 4 the WIN - Every Time!!
The biggest thing missing is……shipping is like $40-50 to USA. Winwing’s pricing isn’t too bad but the shipping is brutal. Especially if you can’t afford to buy a lot of their products at once. 50 bucks for shipping each time is pretty rough.
Very good tutorial on the hotas throttle systems. ❓ Right now I'm using the TM 16000M Euro fighter setup. Can I get the win wing F-16 throttle until I can save enough to get the stick and continue to use the TM joystick while using the wind wing F-16 throttle. Hope you're following the premise. I'm sure you are. I'm on disability and I have well over 1500 hours on the throttle and I've done all the maintenance I can on it. It has dead spots in it and the actuator is sealed rather than the older model where you can pop it open and clean it. All I can do is open it up and blow it out. It improves 70% but now within 100 hours it's almost useless. So for now I have to assign the throttle to another axis until find me a better throttle system. I applied the F-14 tomcat and split engine is very good for the engines are spread apart wide. Hornet the engines are so close. It's not a major factor. Appreciate any feedback that you can give me. Thank you so much. The tutorial was definitely priceless. Thank you! Definitely going to save this one. Take care 🕊️
I'm terrible, brought my ''VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Throttle'' over 2 yrs ago and just haven't got round to using it yet, jeez it'll be a museum piece before im done.
I got the CM3 out of a bit of hype, as someone who hadn't owned Virpil products before. That hype meant I didn't look into the functionality that well, which I really regret. Hate is a heavy word, but I've got to admit I really hate that basically every button and switch on the Virpil throttle is momentary and mushy. The momentary part doesn't help with DCS and the mushy part just bugs me out.
With my Thrustmaster Warthog throttle I had a similar cable problem as you mentioned you had with your CM2, so Thrustmaster provided me with instructions to open up the throttle quadrant and see if the corresponding connection was the problem. The connector had indeed come out of the socket, so that was an easy fix.
I have the Virpil Mongoose CM2 Base and stick. The base is very good but the stick is not, very plasticky so i use the TM Warthog F-16 stick on the Virpil base. As i am going to order a winwing throttle i wonder if the winwing sticks fits on the virpil base, do you know?
Well, prices are not like that. Check prices after taxes (for country) and after delivery. Of course better quality...but at double price than Thrustmaster Warthog.
Great and fair breakdown!
wait year and comes yet again same thing
Can the WW faceplates be removed relatively easy? Reason I ask, is I have a laser engraver and can make custom faceplates for my TM and other HOTAS brands. Can't tell if WW makes that possible.
As an expert in both, the Virpil looks nearly like an F15 throttle, the other is a good F18 throttle, and I agree with the WinWing throttle designed by McDonnell Douglas!
Which one has a longer throttle travel distance? I'm sorry if I missed you saying this in the video, but I really didn't hear any information about it. It's quite important because a longer travel distance would give me more precision, so I'd really love to know this.
Great video. Like your style of delivery. What argument are you using in Virpil Link Tool to indicate missile launch? I can't seem to find it.
Squadrons player here. Currently on hotasx52 looking to upgrade.
Tell what stick and throttle i should get?
Are there any hotas available that have haptics?
I purchased a Virpil throttle and I regret it. I love the feel of my Virpil stick but I don't like the throttle and both have had issues. My Stick and base failed after a few months and a wiring assembly had to be shipped to me to fix it. My throttle arrived with a defective button and a new one had to be shipped to me. I've had numerous experiences with the throttle totally being unrecognized out of the blue forcing me to have to re-setup the Virpil software and then re-map my controls in the sims. It's quite frustrating. I've had quite a few issues requiring Virpil support and I do give them credit for assisting me each time but it has been a frustrating experience.
I also don't like how crowded the throttle feels. It's hard to use buttons behind the throttle axis because of the way the throttle arc is designed. I also find it difficult to use some buttons on the front of the throttle grip as it is too bulky for my hand. To be honest, I would rather have kept my old and still performing well Saitek X55 throttle. It may not feels as solid as the metal base Virpil but it actually performed better. I'm interested in the WinWing products now but to be honest it would just be easier to buy a Thrustmaster throttle due to the fact that if it turns out to be defective, all I have to do is drive down the road and replace it. Until these foreign devices become available in North American stores (I'm in Canada) I think I will pass on them in the future.
Nice and informative review. Thanks a lot!
My like happened to be #1.000! Well earned…
My CM3 is too bulky. I also don’t like the feeling of plastic so maybe I should give Winwing a try since I only do DCS
I have a WInWing Orion. Button 10 failed and it is cost prohibitive to replace it as it comes from China. Repairability is another consideration to keep in mind.
I have Virpil throthle and I don't like it. It's not comfortable for my hand, my fingers lays on hats, and I basically have costant fear to unintentionally press somthing
With your throttle handle split comparison, I feel was it a little unfair on the WinWing, If you place your hand on the throttle naturally and reach down with the thumb, it is an easy unlock using the thumbnail, then using pad of thumb to lock.
Very usefull comparison, thanks
o7