@@jebb125 The Boeing-MD merger kept the Boeing name, but fired Boeing management and replaced them with MD managers. The same toxic management culture which caused MD to tank has been running the show at Boeing ever since.
I love my WW throttle for the most part. I almost went for the Virpil but I liked the WW stick better so I got the set. There are a couple things about the WW throttle that I'm not crazy about but it's more personal preference than an actual fault. As everyone can see, the WW Orion 2 throttle is set up to emulate an FA-18. This is all well and good... if you're flying an FA-18, which I frequently do. But I also fly an F-16, F-15, F-14, A-10, and a variety of space sims. All this to say that I wish the throttle wasn't quite so specific sometimes. In that way, I would prefer the Virpil device. Also, some of the controls are put in rather non-ergonomic locations. Whenever I take off with the throttle at max, I have to reach around the throttle grips to get to my landing gear and flap switches. Those could have been placed better. Like I said, mostly personal preference. All in all, I love the thing. I originally had the FA-18 grips but have since installed the F-15EX grips so between that and the F-16EX stick, I have more than enough hats and switches for pretty much any aircraft, including the AH-64 Apache. And I can totally do a complete HOTAS setup for any space sim. The grips are all metal and feel great. The hats and switches are high quality and very precise for the most part, although the push buttons on the F-15EX grips are very small and sometimes hard to find and press. Also, the very left hand hat switch doesn't really have any kind of "hat" on it so it can be a bit awkward to move it directionally. In fact, when I first installed these grips, I didn't even realize it was a hat. I thought it was a button (I believe that is what the real F-15E throttle has). What I really like about the entire setup is that there are enough buttons and hats that I can cover every HOTAS function and also have enough hats left over that I can map some of the most important MFD switches to the HOTAS so I don't have to take my hand off the stick and point and click with the mouse to change the radar range. I'm hoping to have the WW MIP soon so I won't have to even do that anymore. Anyway, that's my take on the WW Orion 2 throttle. I have never actually tried the Virpil device so I can't say one way or the other. The WW isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.
Hey Jodi, I'm thinking of getting a WW Ursa Minor Fighter joystick and maybe a throttle as well but am a little confused by the options available. Just wondering what you'd recommend for an all-rounder (Elite Dangerous, MS Flight Sim, maybe even No Mans Sky).
I have both of these (and a few others too). One thing I really like about the Winwing is that the 3 position switches actually give 3 different button outputs, meaning each change will always give one button changing to off and another changing to on. On Thrustmaster (and I think Virpil too), the middle position is generally just the other two inputs being off (with no other explicit input going on), which requires somewhat special support from DCS modules' bindings to work properly. It's also really nice that the Winwing software so easily allows mapping the rotary controllers to addition axes too.
So they're still rotary controllers, but they can be mapped as axes. Interesting, since with Virpil you can map the access to buttons. I wonder if there's a way to do the opposite in Virpil too. That's literally my least favorite thing about it, followed by what you said with the 3 pos switches.
Nice review, I appreciate the discussion of internals and it's always great to see honest discussions about issues (without it too much drama, more presentation of issue, what was done to fix it, and so on).
Virpil is top notch quality. That said, I am a stickler for replica HOTAS’s for my aircraft. At least the throttle and stick grips. I have a bit of everything except VKB. My HOTAS’: Real Simulator FSSB-R3 Lightning Base Real Simulator F-16 Grip Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM2 Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM3 Virpil 200 mm extension Virpil F-14 Grip TM F-18 Grip TM Warthog (stick & Throttle) (my 1st replica HOTAS). WinWing Orion 2 Throttle w/ F-18 grip WinWing Orion 2 Throttle W/ F-16 grip WinWing hasn’t let me down so far. Out of everything, my nicest bit of kit is definitely the Real Simulator FSSB base. I just bought the Virpil CM3. My only gripe with the cm2 is that with that very long 200mm extension any bouncing or lack of precise movements due to rebounding can become large deviations. The cm3 clutch should definitely fix that issue.
Once you get used to all the hats on the CM3 it's extremely useful for binding a lot of things needed for modern jets (F18, A10CII, etc.) I use the center push button hat next to the joystick as a modifier button in DCS for even more binds on the throttle.
@Colin_from_Scotlandshire Interesting. The small number of buttons on the throttle is exactly why I'm not interested in the Winwing. Differing needs I suppose.
1:23 Important note: While the Virpil doesn't have VAT "on import" since it comes from inside the EU, you DO have to pay VAT when you buy it, and the website prices are listed _without VAT included_. The VAT will be added during the payment process, and raises the price substantially. The only real difference to the WinWing in this sense is that you can easily pay the VAT during the payment process when buying the Virpil, whereas you'll have to pay the VAT on the WinWing separately to the customs (or let your postal service handle it, whatever).
@@nyandyn I know you said that I just don’t understand how it’s lacking. If we’re talking about enough buttons for proper sim, it has enough (for A10). I’ve mapped everything you could possibly mapped onto the grip that you would on an A10 grip. I suppose more buttons would be nice, but it’s certainly not lacking.
Very nice video. Surprisingly good, actually. Only nitpicky thing would be to make sure audio levels are constant throughout the video using the post software so that it's more professional and consistent to the viewer/listener. Content was good. Your voice is pleasing and the editing was well done. Yep, you're only going to get better so I look forward to what you review next. Cheers.
Love my Virpil CM3 throttle, which I don't think is much different than the CM2. I mostly flight sim with mine, and it's been a great choice for a variety of aircraft. Great review!
Manual throttle detents are nice plus the height of the throttle grips are great for the CM3. That's really the only difference. I run the CM2 and there shorter and no afterburner detent. So, in the Viper I rely on the dent click noise in the cockpit. To know where my throttle is located without having to look down.
I use virpil and winwing gear and have owned the CM2 throttle and currently Own the CM3. The Hat switch on the rotary ring dial is actually a Physical 8 Way, but it defaults as a 4 way in set up. You need to set it up as an 8 way in the VPC Configuration Tool, However if You know what you are doing you can set up any Physical 4way hat with Push into an 8 way with push as well using the VPC Configuration Tool. The CM2/3 Throttle has 6 Axis; two for the throttle, one for the Flaps lever, two on the Analogue Ministick, and 1 for the Slider Axis. The 5 way mode dial does not need to be programed as a mode switch. The VPC Configuration tool allows you a lot of customization and You only use it to configure flash and test your device it does not run in the back ground like wingwing's SimApPro. Most of the members of my squad use Winwing Virpil or Both (I use the winwing TO and C Panels). My squadmates have had more problems with Wingwing than Virpil, However I myself had have problems with virpil. The rotary encoder ring can come loose and pop off and the 8 way hat can get "hammered" into the post causing it to NOT hit all 8 ways, This can be fixed with some lock tight and piece of a heavy paper clip as a spacer. My the flip down trigger on my CM2 Stick broke but Virpil overnight me a replacement. Between the CM2 and CM3 throttles The CM3 has more "Throw" due to longer handles than the CM2. The CM2 has a superior Throttle lock (Bolt action style) than the CM3 (Slider). The CM3 has the detent kits. One thing people may overlook is the Feel of the Controller in your hand and how Comfortable it is to use.
It is cool that you have both to give your input on them both. Thank You for that. When I first went to buy new gear I went to WinWing I don't know or understand why but I made a account and the account became broken somehow and it would not allow me to fix it or ORDER. I sent so many Support tickets in and got ZERO replies. I started to see other reports of less then positive reviews of support problems and then Others that were taken care of in a flash. Because of my personal problems with them never answering one support ticket request to given my money for gear I left and went to VIRPIL. I now have all VIRPIL gear and I love them all. Helicopter Collective with VPC SharKA 50 Grip and Mongoos T-50CM3 Throttle and Switch box 1 and VPC WarBRD base with Constellation Grip. I enjoyed your Honest Review and will say I am very happy with my VIRPIL Gear. I do not understand why WinWing has a hit and miss support system taking care of customers. Glad you had no Problems with them. OH I also use MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals Because I think They are the best in their Class.
While I've only extremely limited experience with WW gear (used the Orion HOTAS once on a buddy's PC), I do own the Virpil CM3 and I will say this: - The throttle axes' action and precision are incredible - it's a definite step up from the WHT I've used before and I still think the WHT is pretty impressive already. - overall build quality is extremely high - which makes some of the less impressive components stand out a bit. Namely the four red toggle switches on the base and the downright flimsy feeling ring-finger slider on the grip. But to see the difference in quality (and price) you need only open up both the VPC and the WHT and take a peek inside. VPC's interior is so much cleaner and there's not a trace of hot-glue or anything like that in there. - adjustable detents and fingerlifts are a very nice upgrade over the WHT. They do require a bit of fiddling and axis-customization and for certain games, you'll still be left with a bit of a compromise. IL-2's 109s and 190s for example switch from combat to emergency power at around 80% and 85%, so you won't be able to set up your throttle to match both planes exactly. But I see this more as a shortcoming in IL-2's keymapper. - while I do agree that the grips are a bit overloaded with buttons and hats, I'm finding myself getting used to the new layout after three days of ownership. Having come from the WHT, the difference is quite pronounced - especially in the thumb-area of the grip, because the WHT has way fewer controls there and its switches in that area are so unique in feel and action. The VPC's are a bit more generic and too similar to each other (the two rear thumb-hats in particular). Still: This seems to be more a matter of getting used to the new layout/ergos, because I find it less noticeable even now after only three days of ownership. - grip shape is vastly different from the WHT's and required me to alter my throttle mount to find a comfortable position for the new throttle. I think VPC may have overdone it a bit with their "hand-shaped" type of grip, which doesn't offer as much flexbility WRT throttle placement on your mount. You really need to adjust the throttle's position (or your seating position) to grab this thing as it's meant to be grabbed. Not so much the case on the WHT. I find that it's more comfortable to grab the VPC from above and with my VKB mount, that meant I had to take the mount apart to increase its overall length. The VPC definitely didn't work for me with the mount set up like I had it for my WHT. All in all, I'd still highly recommend the VPC if your budget allows for it. I was also looking at WW, but since I'd heard some disturbing stuff about their controller SW potentially containing spy-ware (not sure if that's true) *and* because it would've been a major pain in the butt (and costly) to import their stuff into the EU *and* since I really prefer the VPC's generic nature over a replica throttle, I went with Virpil. If you're on a little tighter budget, I'd also still recommend the WHT. Yes: The slew-control is a joke and it's not as high quality as the VPC, but for the €200 I paid for mine, it's still very good value for money and a huge step-up from the TWCS I've used before it.
I personally have 2 of winwing's throttles, pretty much the entire VKB line of stuff and a thustamster hotas warthog. My advice is do not buy the thrustmaster warthog stick. The throttle on the other hand I actually really like. It is smooth, all of the buttons feel of adaquate quality, and unlike the stick, it has lasted me well over 11 years. The stick broke in 2 months. And I don't even want to get into what I went through to get it repaired. But I really enjoy the warthog throttle a lot. My current 2 main throttles are the WW orion 2, and the WW super taurus. I use the super taurus for my f-18 cockpit which is really nice since its a 1 to 1 replica. I do not recomend it to anyone other than those who are building 1 to 1 scale cockpits as its too specialized. The Orion however is very versitile. It allows for the f-16 handle, the f-18 handle, and a helicopter attachment. In other words its moduler similar to most joysticks. And honestly I see no other company doing that. And not only that, but its far cheaper than the virpil. My buddy has all virpil gear and I honestly couldn't say 1 was better than the other in raw quality. They are both fantastic. My only issues I have with the virpil are the same I have with the warthog which is not enough levers for wwii planes. The 2 cliders on the side of the birpil are really nice when your axis include: Manifold pressure (throttle), RPM, Fuel mixture, Oil radiators, Water radiators. All needing their sepparate axis. Unfortunately there is almost no one making WWII throttles. A few projects, but those controls are all needed for some aircraft which is why pairing the orion 2 with the ww takov panel gives you 4 of those levers. Plus the 2 throttle handles. So far it has been the more versatile of the 2 in my opinion for a far lower price in the US. Actually its price is similar to the warthog which is leaps and bounds lower in quality. I will say that win wing's software sucks. It actually causes delays in imput and inconsistancy in button inputs. It is literally unfunctional to me and I just could not use it. Which is not ideal since I have the MIP setup aswell so I cannot actually utilize a bit part of that. Now that being said I do fly in VR so while it was nice to use the nose hold to press buttons and see what is happening on the panel, it isn't a waist either. But something to note about WW software. It also was really slow. If there was an area that included spyware I would be suspicious of their software. The hardware on the other hand seems fine. Its literally the best out there asside from the boutique real training gear like redbird.
In EU Virpil is actually cheaper due to the VAT and import fees on goods from China. The WW support on the EU store also seems to be worse as there are a lot of bad experiences shared in the r/hotas community.
The virpil does 1:1 map to the F18, by using hats push functions as momentary. The only issue with the 1:1 mapping is the radar elevation is swapped with the autothrottle button in its position. I was hoping you would have covered the sensors in each, their resolution, throw of the throttle, and total sensor positions in that throw.
Nice, good to know. The F16 throttle handle is also a 1-to-1 with a few extra buttons which is nice as well. Ah, you’re right that would’ve been a great way to break down the sensors. Might throw that together in a follow up vid as that shouldn’t be too hard! Thanks for the suggestion.
I fly in VR and found the layout of the Virpil to be much better to manage. Since you have to go by feel a lot. If I was running of a monitor with trackir I can see the win wing being nice and useful.
Look forward to more content on your sim rig. This was a comprehensive and to the point video which would be great for anyone trying to pick which throttle to use.
Both of the guys in my formation team have had winwing stuff go out on them within a month, over 100 dollars in shipping to have it sent back for repair. one of them did it and the second unit failed within a week.
That's really crazy I've had WW Orion 2 base with f18 hotas for more than 6 months and have already put over 500 hrs on it and the ONLY issue I've had is the cord you plug into the pc on both the throttle and stick base wiggling it's way out of the base just enough to not read my inputs but I just plug it back in and in under 5 seconds I'm right back in the flight like nothing happened (one time I even notched a missile while plugging it back in lol)
I am ready to pick up a new throttle, I have an X-56 now, but the joystick broke a lever switch on it, so I replaced it with a Winwing F-16ex stick and I was really surprised at how nice it is, so I was really on the fence about picking up either a Winwing or a Virpil throttle and I think your video helped me, I think I'm going with the Winwing. Great video, thanks!
Where do you recommend binding the Zoom for DCS on the WinWing Throttle? This is extremely important to me. Could you maybe even include it in a future video? Major thanks.
having used both assemblies for DCS, i would agree with most of your statements. I have however switched completely to Virpil for one main reason. Although 99% folks in my squadron use Winwing and have never had issues with their HOTAS's, I on the otherhand have had nothing but. the highhats on the stick went completely out twice on both the orion 1 and orion 2 that replaced it. The right throttle stopped funtioning on the orion 2 throttle as well as the radar inclination/declination switch and a plethora of other issues that occured all within months of recieving them. although Winwings customer service is good (at best and once you have taken weeks to prove that it is a manufactures defect by sending photos and videos of the issue) it takes weeks to get replacement parts in from them and even then you have to not only pay shipping of the new part but custom fees as well. last part that was sent to me was a small circuit board for the TDC slew that was the size of a quarter that cost me $64 in shipping and custom costs and took 3 weeks to get to me. I have now owned my Virpil Hotas assembly for the same time frame as both my orion 1 and orion 2 and have had no issue what-so-ever, so i can't attest to Virplil customer support. There are two things i prefered the winwing over the virpil. The first is the threeway switches as opposed to the twoway on/off switches on the virpil. second is the software. Although the virpil software is a much more powerfull tool compaired to winwings Simpro, it is not very user intuitive and takes some research to even have a base understanding on how it works. i wish there was a way to replace the metal switches on the virpil with threeways.
One thing that annoys me with my Orion 2 is the placement of controls above/behind the throttle handles. For example, in a full throttle takeoff you have to reach behind and under the throttle handle to raise landing gear.
Exactly. Not the most ergonomic setup, to be sure. These days when I’m taking off, as soon as I put the throttle to max, even before I release the brakes, I find the gear switch so I can raise the gear asap without having to fumble around for the switch whilst trying to keep the plane in the air.
You know what? I’m late to the comment section, but I will say one thing to point out with WinWing is that their springs break decently easily, but the experience I’ve had with them is they respond quickly, and with the springs I’ve broken (one on throttle, and one on joystick) they sent me two of each rather than just one. They also responded quickly and since I sent photos of the issues, there was no back and forth.
I'm terrible, brought my ''VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Throttle'' over 2 yrs ago and just haven't got round to using it yet, jeez it'll be a museum piece before im done.
Virpil absolutely makes you pay VAT in Europe, as they are required. It differs by country, usually somewhere around 20% of the base price and shipping costs. The difference is that you pay your VAT directly when ordering at Virpil's EU shop. With WinWing, you yourself are the importter and must pay VAT upon delivery or shortly thereafter.
Awesome reviews, short, simple, to the point and very informative! I have been looking at the Virpil setup but trying to decide on just text descriptions isn't easy at all, so being able to watch you describe each button and position was very helpful. In addition to that I had not heard of WinWing before, so finding out about another option out there was great! One of hte challenges I've run into with Virpil is while they do ahve an US site now, they always seem to be on back-order which is quite frustrating. I haven't' been impressed with VKB either, and my poor old X56 while is OK, it's getting some slop in it so it'll be nice to repalce it with a better quality. Looking forward to future comparison/reviews, this one was very well done!
Man I switched from an X-55 to a VPC Constellation and CM Throttle about a year ago. Just finally got around to setting it all up and getting some actual hands on time with the new stick and throttle the last few weeks. It's hard to describe how big a step up it feels.
EU VAT depends on country, but it's commonly around 20-22%. For build quality it would have been nice to see the internals. Designs with parts that can easily be self-serviced are some of the things VKB and Virpil are known for nowadays. It would have been interesting to see how Winwing stacks up on that front.
Another commenter asked for a thorough comparison of sensor range to throw and I was considering making a follow up vid. Might throw this in there as well. Thank you for the suggestion.
I did the math for both WW and Virpil last year ... I *think* Virpil have reduced their prices slightly since then, so this might not be accurate any longer, but: I'm pretty sure that without finger-lifts, the Orion 2 would've been around €400, all in (perhaps slightly more to cover the carrier's "handling charge") while the Virpil would've been around €500. These days, the Virpil is ~€450 and €404 or so during their X-Mas sale when I bought. Since they sell EU to EU, I had zero additional cost beyond what I paid them. With WW, shipping is a little more complicated and costly. In my country, VAT is 19%, which you pay on the sum of product cost and shipping cost. Plus that "handling fee" I mentioned which the carriers charge for taking care of import duty stuff for you. I ordered a Delanclip-set last year from the UK (~60 GBP item cost) and handling fee was a whopping €20 on that.
yeah i have the winwing and i have issues with the throttle lock mechanism and the throttle detents, not sure if its the product or i just didnt put it together correctly, it is easily fixable but after 10 or so hours of flying it needs to be adjusted again
I hVe a Virpil CM3 throttle. It has the New detend levers with adjustable detends. One thing that Looks very different compared to your cm2 is the electronics and cables inside. It Looks much better and cleaner on my cm3.
The Winwing button placement, just the warthog throttle, seems totally random. This probably makes total sense in the aircraft they are used in, but in gaming it is very unintuitive and hard to find input bindings that make sense. The biggest problem I see is that many cockpit games tend to profit from VR and are more and more played in VR, and you can't really use such complex arrays without looking up the inputs from time to time. So I think an orderly arrangement is really important here. I also have troubles with the warthog throttle without VR, as there are so many element like 2 way switches (momentary and non-momentary), 3-way switches, single buttons, etc. When all I want is really an orderly aligned set of as many buttons as possible. Like the 6 ones on the virpil, but instead of all the other stuff i would just want like 8-10 buttons. Additionally 2 axis, 2 encoders etc. and you should be mostly set.
True. I have the Virpil CM3 and im in DCS VR. Don`t think the winwing layout would work for me since I wouldn`t be able to find the buttons and switches fast enough.
I use my Orion 2 as a daily driver 'general' throttle. I have the finger lifts; but opted out of using the center detent, so its just the detent before AB and the hard stop before the engine cutoff switch. fantastic for Elite, SW:S, DCS, IL2, MSFS and even Kerbal Space Program. Have the Orion 2 stick base with the F16 EX stick. I really wish Winwing would release an update that allowed the F16 EX sticks vibration to work by any rumble call a game makes so it would work in other titles....
Very fair review. I have the Orion 1 I guess. When I was in the market to upgrade from my Logitech X52 about 2 and a half years ago WINWING had just started offering the ORION 2 series and the HOTAS I have was marked down for clearance. The boxes read as follows ORION GENERIC THROTTLE SYSTEM and box 2 reads THROTTLE HANDLE Of F/A -18 H.O.T.A.S. and was sold with the flight stick of the same gen 1 included for a steal of a price I wont mention how much but I got the entire HOTAS for the less than the price you listed for the VIRPLE CM2 Throttle. That was the main reason I went with WINWING ...PRICE...but after almost 3 years I can say I am glad I was able to get such a great product at such a reasonable price. The Orion 2 is more ergonomic in some areas as to WINWING learning as they grew. Yours there in the video is much more interesting to look at with the raised surfaces , trims and covers while mine is just a rectangle back LED lit metal black box with no finger gates. But its a tank and has not let me down not once not ever not yet..
I have the Virpil Mongoose CM2 Base and stick. The base is very good but the stick is not, very plasticky so i use the TM Warthog F-16 stick on the Virpil base. As i am going to order a winwing throttle i wonder if the winwing sticks fits on the virpil base, do you know?
I'm currently using the TWCS but may soon buy one of these two (if the TECS does not come out soon). After watching this video, the Orion 2 looks more promising. But I have one concern. Currently I use the wheel on the left side of the TWCS for zooming in and out in DCS, and I want to do the same thing with a new throttle. Problem with the Orion 2 is that it does not have such a wheel on the throttle itself but the Virpil does have one. On the Orion, I would have to use one of the two grey axes on the base for zooming in. But can these two base-axes be reached easily when the hand is on the throttle itself? Probably not. So I guess that with the Orion I would lose the ability to quickly zoom in and out at any time without taking my hand from the throttle?
There's an axis on the back of the Orion 2 your middle finger can control that flips up or down, then goes to center. You can map it to zoom very easily.
I've used the TWCS, then the WHT and now the Virpil, and the best zoom in/out control on any of the three was the TWCS's pinky dial. You *can* use the ring-finger slider on the VPC for that (it does have a center notch) but I find it a bit too light to the touch and thus prone to accidental input. If they put a stiffer control on there (like a wheel or dial) or made the slider a bit "stiffer", it would be perfect for zoom. Another alternative on the VPC might be the two-way + push hat under your pinky - if you can set your game to accept button-presses to zoom in/out. The push on that hat might be useful to reset to default zoom. You also might be able to set up the pinky encoder wheel on the VPC for this task, but out of the box, I've not gotten it to work (in IL-2, haven't tried DCS yet). Those sliders on the WW base, in theory, work great for zoom as well, but I found I never used the one on the WHT, since you need to take your hand off the grip to properly work that slider. You could probably also use the VPC's flaps handle for zoom, but that too is in a similar location as on the WHT, so not super easily manipulated with your hand on the grip.
Keep in mind Winwing did not design that grip. It's an exact 1:1 replica of F/A-18C throttle, of course a design that had millions of tax dollars poured into it will feel more ergonomic than one designed pretty much from scratch (only slightly inspired by Su-35) by a sim peripheral company.
I wound up getting the Winwing throttle because I was tired of Virpil being sold out whenever I had the money to buy at that moment.... Just for them to open a store in Tampa a week after I got my Orion 2. 🤣 In any case, I've been SUPER happy with my kit so far and to be honest it feels like QUALITY. It'll easily last many, many years. Note that if you order any replacement parts it'll come from China. With the supply chain issues that we were experiencing at the moment when I had to order a replacement bracket it took a bit to get to me, but it was an affordable piece and shipping wasn't outrageous.
I placed an order for a CM3 throttle, Warbrd base, F14 grip at the end of November. I received all the products on Jan 6. So it took about 6-7 weeks for shipment. But yes, all products seem to always be on back order. It was hard throwing down 700 bucks, on back ordered products. LoL.
Have a full Virpil Flight setup, but got my Nephew and Son Winwing Orion 2 setups....Orion 2 is amazing kit! Like my Virpil stick setup better, but that Orion throttle beats the Virpil easily, IMHO. Just the layout is so much better, nevermind the much less chunky grips. Not to say the Virpil is bad at all, but the WW seems just better. And yeah, the WW software is much easier to use.
I got the CM3 out of a bit of hype, as someone who hadn't owned Virpil products before. That hype meant I didn't look into the functionality that well, which I really regret. Hate is a heavy word, but I've got to admit I really hate that basically every button and switch on the Virpil throttle is momentary and mushy. The momentary part doesn't help with DCS and the mushy part just bugs me out. With my Thrustmaster Warthog throttle I had a similar cable problem as you mentioned you had with your CM2, so Thrustmaster provided me with instructions to open up the throttle quadrant and see if the corresponding connection was the problem. The connector had indeed come out of the socket, so that was an easy fix.
I purchased a Virpil throttle and I regret it. I love the feel of my Virpil stick but I don't like the throttle and both have had issues. My Stick and base failed after a few months and a wiring assembly had to be shipped to me to fix it. My throttle arrived with a defective button and a new one had to be shipped to me. I've had numerous experiences with the throttle totally being unrecognized out of the blue forcing me to have to re-setup the Virpil software and then re-map my controls in the sims. It's quite frustrating. I've had quite a few issues requiring Virpil support and I do give them credit for assisting me each time but it has been a frustrating experience. I also don't like how crowded the throttle feels. It's hard to use buttons behind the throttle axis because of the way the throttle arc is designed. I also find it difficult to use some buttons on the front of the throttle grip as it is too bulky for my hand. To be honest, I would rather have kept my old and still performing well Saitek X55 throttle. It may not feels as solid as the metal base Virpil but it actually performed better. I'm interested in the WinWing products now but to be honest it would just be easier to buy a Thrustmaster throttle due to the fact that if it turns out to be defective, all I have to do is drive down the road and replace it. Until these foreign devices become available in North American stores (I'm in Canada) I think I will pass on them in the future.
The information about European purchases is incorrect, at least at present time. Don't know about the time when the video was made. But Winwing now has an European site with prices including tax and free delivery. On the other hand Virpil stated prices get VAT added on checkout, fortunately they recently started offering shipping (for orders over 100 EUR) which they didn't before.
a little update on orion 2, there is now a european warehouse based in germany, and the thing costs 220 euro or 235 dollars. A very good choice if you ask me!
Nice review - I ordered mine and missed the fact that it doesn't have a z-axis, and I do not want rudder pedals - so it's just sitting there collecting dust, if anyone has an idea os a workaround other than the rudder path please leave comments. I don't mind putting a warthug grip on the winwing base if possible to get my z-axis.
Appreciate the video but as a few others have echoed I don’t think this was a fair comparison. Comparing WW most current version throttle vs Virpils last gen throttle. It should have been the CM3 for this to be a bit more “fair” but even then they are inherently two completely different throttle designs. WW goes for replica style design while Virpil is more multi-purpose design. Again, two totally different design concepts. That said, if you plan to fly multiple aircraft in DCS or fly both flight sim and space sims, Virpil cm3 is absolutely the best bang for your buck due to its versatility, tons of buttons/switches, and great build quality. If you only fly DCS and one or maybe two jets like the 16 or 18, WW is going to give you the better 1:1 controls experience if that’s what you’re lookin for.
Considering I'm not sponsored by either company I found it hard to justify buying a CM3 for the sake of making a review. Just had a lot of people ask me for comparison on the HOTAS subreddit. I point out in the start of the video that this is a CM2 comparison.
As an expert in both, the Virpil looks nearly like an F15 throttle, the other is a good F18 throttle, and I agree with the WinWing throttle designed by McDonnell Douglas!
The buttons separate into two pieces - a plastic slightly translucent base piece, and the clear plastic piece that goes over it. The manual for the throttle/button boxes shows how to do this.
Can the WW faceplates be removed relatively easy? Reason I ask, is I have a laser engraver and can make custom faceplates for my TM and other HOTAS brands. Can't tell if WW makes that possible.
I play in VR, I don't think I would use those controls in front of the WW throttle, having to go over or around the handle seems complicated without looking. The Virpil has more buttons and switches at reach if I just let go and lower my hand. I think for VR players Virpil is the way to go.
thanks, another question, do they then go directly into the computer, how do you decide to only show the specific screen from the aircraft on that screen? @@esodavr
@@georgelza Yes, they connect via display cables. You could use HDMI -> USB adapters as well. As far as showing the screens, that's LUA export from DCS which is a whole process but it's very well documented across the internet. The SDD screens come with instructions as well for doing it.
@@esodavr that should be a great thing to have in your video discription thanks for that recommendation, usually flightstick "included" softwares, really suck
Which one has a longer throttle travel distance? I'm sorry if I missed you saying this in the video, but I really didn't hear any information about it. It's quite important because a longer travel distance would give me more precision, so I'd really love to know this.
Thank you for stopping by! I am a big fan of your products! I’ve got the f16 FSSB and your collective as well I plan on getting around to making some vids and reviews on
I just received my Winwing Orion 2 that I chose over the TM Warthog. My main use will be MSFS. To my deception, I just found out that there is no default settings for MSFS on the Winwing, which makes it a nightmare to set up. Does anyone have a set up they can share? I would also like to set it up for IL-2, which doesn’t come default. Thank you
"Altitude"! LMAO Also, as an electronic component engineer, I appreciate that WinWing went the extra mile on switch feel/travel/force selection and may have worked with switch manufacturers to improve upon what was available in stock form. Hats off to WinWing (pun intended)!
The biggest thing missing is……shipping is like $40-50 to USA. Winwing’s pricing isn’t too bad but the shipping is brutal. Especially if you can’t afford to buy a lot of their products at once. 50 bucks for shipping each time is pretty rough.
Hello, can i use the WinWing Throttle when my Stick is from Virpil (Constellation Alpha with MongoosT-50M3). Normally is should not get issues when using different Brands for Throttle and Grips, right?
How do these perform in MSFS? are there limitations to game compatibility? I see lot's of DCS use. I fly prop single engine, WWII birds, and have a penchant for Space Games, though not there yet. Was thinking this might be a workable mix of GA and Space, forward looking. Your thoughts?
No experience w MSFS unfortunately - but they are just programmed as USB joystick devices so should work, you may just have to map yourself. Honestly for your use case, if the virpil is in budget for you, and you don't plan on spending a LOT of time w the F16 or F18 I'd go for the virpil. Both are solid choices though.
Hey! I have been trying to get the Orion 2 set up for SC, but I really do not want to get pedals and I hear they no longer produce that Z axis piece which allowed you to twist the stick for yawing. Is the WinWing Throttle and Stick a setup that can work well with SC (like are there triggers at the back of the throttle you can use) or you HAVE to get pedals? Thanks for the video!
As far as I know they still haven’t started making the Z axis adapter. The flight model in star citizen lends itself way more to dual stick than HOTAS, so if your goal is space games I’d reccomend dual sticks!
@@esodavr Thank you! I am not a super fun of the dual stick, something about the Throttle and the fact of having so many neat buttons on it, it is just so appealing! Plus as far as I understand it, the Orion doesn't really do dual stick setups (unless I guess you buy a Right handed and Left Handed one, but then you have 2 massive vertical sticks with not a lot extra options in terms of buttons :)
@@BlackRabbitDigitalP I feel you - I think HOTAS is a cooler setup than HOSAS as well. As far as button counts go you actually can get close with some setups. You are correct, WinWing offers no left handed sticks at the moment. I’d recommend dual VKB glads for best “bang for your buck” dual stick setup.
@@esodavr Thanks I really appreciate the advice, maybe I could get the WW Throttle + the R Handed Gladiator. Just to confirm, there are no rudder levers or anything like that behind the WW Throttle right?
@esoda I don't know if this has been already answered, sorry if that's the case, any noticeable difference in how precise and good the index TDC slew works between both throttles? Is anyone clearly better than the other? I love my Twcs and have all my profiles perfectly setup, but the only thing is bothering me is how spiky the TDC slew has become lately, which makes it hard to be precise with radar and TGPs in DCS, so I'm seriously considering buying one of these 2
Both slew/analog sticks are pretty accurate from my experience, I can’t really discern one that is actively more accurate or better than the other on that front
Well, to be fair, the Virpil throttle was designed by Virpil while WinWing throttle was designed by McDonnell Douglas.
Is that suppose to be a credit to WinWing? lol McDonnell Douglas has abit of a tarnished reputation :P
@@lyianx how so? since they have been a boeing company since 1997,
@@jebb125 The Boeing-MD merger kept the Boeing name, but fired Boeing management and replaced them with MD managers. The same toxic management culture which caused MD to tank has been running the show at Boeing ever since.
@@lyianx I mean it kind of IS a company that maneufactored real FIGHTER JETS. But I don't know anything aout that, I can't say nothing haha.
@@lyianx A tarnished reputation due to terrible management not engineering.
I love my WW throttle for the most part. I almost went for the Virpil but I liked the WW stick better so I got the set. There are a couple things about the WW throttle that I'm not crazy about but it's more personal preference than an actual fault. As everyone can see, the WW Orion 2 throttle is set up to emulate an FA-18. This is all well and good... if you're flying an FA-18, which I frequently do. But I also fly an F-16, F-15, F-14, A-10, and a variety of space sims. All this to say that I wish the throttle wasn't quite so specific sometimes. In that way, I would prefer the Virpil device. Also, some of the controls are put in rather non-ergonomic locations. Whenever I take off with the throttle at max, I have to reach around the throttle grips to get to my landing gear and flap switches. Those could have been placed better.
Like I said, mostly personal preference. All in all, I love the thing. I originally had the FA-18 grips but have since installed the F-15EX grips so between that and the F-16EX stick, I have more than enough hats and switches for pretty much any aircraft, including the AH-64 Apache. And I can totally do a complete HOTAS setup for any space sim. The grips are all metal and feel great. The hats and switches are high quality and very precise for the most part, although the push buttons on the F-15EX grips are very small and sometimes hard to find and press. Also, the very left hand hat switch doesn't really have any kind of "hat" on it so it can be a bit awkward to move it directionally. In fact, when I first installed these grips, I didn't even realize it was a hat. I thought it was a button (I believe that is what the real F-15E throttle has).
What I really like about the entire setup is that there are enough buttons and hats that I can cover every HOTAS function and also have enough hats left over that I can map some of the most important MFD switches to the HOTAS so I don't have to take my hand off the stick and point and click with the mouse to change the radar range. I'm hoping to have the WW MIP soon so I won't have to even do that anymore.
Anyway, that's my take on the WW Orion 2 throttle. I have never actually tried the Virpil device so I can't say one way or the other. The WW isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.
Hey Jodi, I'm thinking of getting a WW Ursa Minor Fighter joystick and maybe a throttle as well but am a little confused by the options available. Just wondering what you'd recommend for an all-rounder (Elite Dangerous, MS Flight Sim, maybe even No Mans Sky).
I have both of these (and a few others too). One thing I really like about the Winwing is that the 3 position switches actually give 3 different button outputs, meaning each change will always give one button changing to off and another changing to on. On Thrustmaster (and I think Virpil too), the middle position is generally just the other two inputs being off (with no other explicit input going on), which requires somewhat special support from DCS modules' bindings to work properly. It's also really nice that the Winwing software so easily allows mapping the rotary controllers to addition axes too.
So they're still rotary controllers, but they can be mapped as axes. Interesting, since with Virpil you can map the access to buttons. I wonder if there's a way to do the opposite in Virpil too. That's literally my least favorite thing about it, followed by what you said with the 3 pos switches.
Do you have a winwing stick as well and if so would you recommend it?
Ive the wingwin f16 Stick i love it and would definetly recommend
Nice review, I appreciate the discussion of internals and it's always great to see honest discussions about issues (without it too much drama, more presentation of issue, what was done to fix it, and so on).
Virpil is top notch quality. That said, I am a stickler for replica HOTAS’s for my aircraft. At least the throttle and stick grips.
I have a bit of everything except VKB.
My HOTAS’:
Real Simulator FSSB-R3 Lightning Base
Real Simulator F-16 Grip
Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM2
Virpil Grip Base - Mongoose CM3
Virpil 200 mm extension
Virpil F-14 Grip
TM F-18 Grip
TM Warthog (stick & Throttle) (my 1st replica HOTAS).
WinWing Orion 2 Throttle w/ F-18 grip
WinWing Orion 2 Throttle W/ F-16 grip
WinWing hasn’t let me down so far.
Out of everything, my nicest bit of kit is definitely the Real Simulator FSSB base. I just bought the Virpil CM3. My only gripe with the cm2 is that with that very long 200mm extension any bouncing or lack of precise movements due to rebounding can become large deviations. The cm3 clutch should definitely fix that issue.
Once you get used to all the hats on the CM3 it's extremely useful for binding a lot of things needed for modern jets (F18, A10CII, etc.) I use the center push button hat next to the joystick as a modifier button in DCS for even more binds on the throttle.
I had a hard time binding all the A10C buttons on the F/A-18 grip from Winwing... no such issue with Virpil
@Colin_from_Scotlandshire Interesting. The small number of buttons on the throttle is exactly why I'm not interested in the Winwing. Differing needs I suppose.
@@Colin_from_ScotlandshireSame here..
1:23 Important note: While the Virpil doesn't have VAT "on import" since it comes from inside the EU, you DO have to pay VAT when you buy it, and the website prices are listed _without VAT included_. The VAT will be added during the payment process, and raises the price substantially.
The only real difference to the WinWing in this sense is that you can easily pay the VAT during the payment process when buying the Virpil, whereas you'll have to pay the VAT on the WinWing separately to the customs (or let your postal service handle it, whatever).
Great review with one exception: I wasn't expecting the jump-scare at 11:47
Awesome video. I really wish VKB would release the TECS and add more options to the throttle game.
Yeah we seriously need mid price throttle. Right now, you have to buy either entry level TWCS or 400+usd highend throttle.
And Winwing needs to come up with Strike Eagle grips to give A-10C and F-15E pilots enough buttons on the throttle grips.
@@nyandyn What's wrong with using the F18 grip?
@@Procxlite I literally said it in the comment above: not enough buttons on the throttle grips.
@@nyandyn I know you said that I just don’t understand how it’s lacking. If we’re talking about enough buttons for proper sim, it has enough (for A10). I’ve mapped everything you could possibly mapped onto the grip that you would on an A10 grip. I suppose more buttons would be nice, but it’s certainly not lacking.
Very nice video. Surprisingly good, actually. Only nitpicky thing would be to make sure audio levels are constant throughout the video using the post software so that it's more professional and consistent to the viewer/listener. Content was good. Your voice is pleasing and the editing was well done. Yep, you're only going to get better so I look forward to what you review next. Cheers.
Username checks out
Love my Virpil CM3 throttle, which I don't think is much different than the CM2. I mostly flight sim with mine, and it's been a great choice for a variety of aircraft. Great review!
Manual throttle detents are nice plus the height of the throttle grips are great for the CM3. That's really the only difference. I run the CM2 and there shorter and no afterburner detent. So, in the Viper I rely on the dent click noise in the cockpit. To know where my throttle is located without having to look down.
I use virpil and winwing gear and have owned the CM2 throttle and currently Own the CM3. The Hat switch on the rotary ring dial is actually a Physical 8 Way, but it defaults as a 4 way in set up. You need to set it up as an 8 way in the VPC Configuration Tool, However if You know what you are doing you can set up any Physical 4way hat with Push into an 8 way with push as well using the VPC Configuration Tool. The CM2/3 Throttle has 6 Axis; two for the throttle, one for the Flaps lever, two on the Analogue Ministick, and 1 for the Slider Axis. The 5 way mode dial does not need to be programed as a mode switch. The VPC Configuration tool allows you a lot of customization and You only use it to configure flash and test your device it does not run in the back ground like wingwing's SimApPro. Most of the members of my squad use Winwing Virpil or Both (I use the winwing TO and C Panels). My squadmates have had more problems with Wingwing than Virpil, However I myself had have problems with virpil. The rotary encoder ring can come loose and pop off and the 8 way hat can get "hammered" into the post causing it to NOT hit all 8 ways, This can be fixed with some lock tight and piece of a heavy paper clip as a spacer. My the flip down trigger on my CM2 Stick broke but Virpil overnight me a replacement.
Between the CM2 and CM3 throttles The CM3 has more "Throw" due to longer handles than the CM2. The CM2 has a superior Throttle lock (Bolt action style) than the CM3 (Slider). The CM3 has the detent kits.
One thing people may overlook is the Feel of the Controller in your hand and how Comfortable it is to use.
It is cool that you have both to give your input on them both. Thank You for that. When I first went to buy new gear I went to WinWing I don't know or understand why but I made a account and the account became broken somehow and it would not allow me to fix it or ORDER. I sent so many Support tickets in and got ZERO replies. I started to see other reports of less then positive reviews of support problems and then Others that were taken care of in a flash. Because of my personal problems with them never answering one support ticket request to given my money for gear I left and went to VIRPIL. I now have all VIRPIL gear and I love them all. Helicopter Collective with VPC SharKA 50 Grip and Mongoos T-50CM3 Throttle and Switch box 1 and VPC WarBRD base with Constellation Grip. I enjoyed your Honest Review and will say I am very happy with my VIRPIL Gear. I do not understand why WinWing has a hit and miss support system taking care of customers. Glad you had no Problems with them. OH I also use MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals Because I think They are the best in their Class.
While I've only extremely limited experience with WW gear (used the Orion HOTAS once on a buddy's PC), I do own the Virpil CM3 and I will say this:
- The throttle axes' action and precision are incredible - it's a definite step up from the WHT I've used before and I still think the WHT is pretty impressive already.
- overall build quality is extremely high - which makes some of the less impressive components stand out a bit. Namely the four red toggle switches on the base and the downright flimsy feeling ring-finger slider on the grip. But to see the difference in quality (and price) you need only open up both the VPC and the WHT and take a peek inside. VPC's interior is so much cleaner and there's not a trace of hot-glue or anything like that in there.
- adjustable detents and fingerlifts are a very nice upgrade over the WHT. They do require a bit of fiddling and axis-customization and for certain games, you'll still be left with a bit of a compromise. IL-2's 109s and 190s for example switch from combat to emergency power at around 80% and 85%, so you won't be able to set up your throttle to match both planes exactly. But I see this more as a shortcoming in IL-2's keymapper.
- while I do agree that the grips are a bit overloaded with buttons and hats, I'm finding myself getting used to the new layout after three days of ownership. Having come from the WHT, the difference is quite pronounced - especially in the thumb-area of the grip, because the WHT has way fewer controls there and its switches in that area are so unique in feel and action. The VPC's are a bit more generic and too similar to each other (the two rear thumb-hats in particular).
Still: This seems to be more a matter of getting used to the new layout/ergos, because I find it less noticeable even now after only three days of ownership.
- grip shape is vastly different from the WHT's and required me to alter my throttle mount to find a comfortable position for the new throttle. I think VPC may have overdone it a bit with their "hand-shaped" type of grip, which doesn't offer as much flexbility WRT throttle placement on your mount. You really need to adjust the throttle's position (or your seating position) to grab this thing as it's meant to be grabbed. Not so much the case on the WHT. I find that it's more comfortable to grab the VPC from above and with my VKB mount, that meant I had to take the mount apart to increase its overall length. The VPC definitely didn't work for me with the mount set up like I had it for my WHT.
All in all, I'd still highly recommend the VPC if your budget allows for it. I was also looking at WW, but since I'd heard some disturbing stuff about their controller SW potentially containing spy-ware (not sure if that's true) *and* because it would've been a major pain in the butt (and costly) to import their stuff into the EU *and* since I really prefer the VPC's generic nature over a replica throttle, I went with Virpil.
If you're on a little tighter budget, I'd also still recommend the WHT. Yes: The slew-control is a joke and it's not as high quality as the VPC, but for the €200 I paid for mine, it's still very good value for money and a huge step-up from the TWCS I've used before it.
I personally have 2 of winwing's throttles, pretty much the entire VKB line of stuff and a thustamster hotas warthog. My advice is do not buy the thrustmaster warthog stick. The throttle on the other hand I actually really like. It is smooth, all of the buttons feel of adaquate quality, and unlike the stick, it has lasted me well over 11 years. The stick broke in 2 months. And I don't even want to get into what I went through to get it repaired. But I really enjoy the warthog throttle a lot. My current 2 main throttles are the WW orion 2, and the WW super taurus. I use the super taurus for my f-18 cockpit which is really nice since its a 1 to 1 replica. I do not recomend it to anyone other than those who are building 1 to 1 scale cockpits as its too specialized. The Orion however is very versitile. It allows for the f-16 handle, the f-18 handle, and a helicopter attachment. In other words its moduler similar to most joysticks. And honestly I see no other company doing that. And not only that, but its far cheaper than the virpil. My buddy has all virpil gear and I honestly couldn't say 1 was better than the other in raw quality. They are both fantastic. My only issues I have with the virpil are the same I have with the warthog which is not enough levers for wwii planes. The 2 cliders on the side of the birpil are really nice when your axis include: Manifold pressure (throttle), RPM, Fuel mixture, Oil radiators, Water radiators. All needing their sepparate axis. Unfortunately there is almost no one making WWII throttles. A few projects, but those controls are all needed for some aircraft which is why pairing the orion 2 with the ww takov panel gives you 4 of those levers. Plus the 2 throttle handles. So far it has been the more versatile of the 2 in my opinion for a far lower price in the US. Actually its price is similar to the warthog which is leaps and bounds lower in quality.
I will say that win wing's software sucks. It actually causes delays in imput and inconsistancy in button inputs. It is literally unfunctional to me and I just could not use it. Which is not ideal since I have the MIP setup aswell so I cannot actually utilize a bit part of that. Now that being said I do fly in VR so while it was nice to use the nose hold to press buttons and see what is happening on the panel, it isn't a waist either. But something to note about WW software. It also was really slow. If there was an area that included spyware I would be suspicious of their software. The hardware on the other hand seems fine. Its literally the best out there asside from the boutique real training gear like redbird.
In EU Virpil is actually cheaper due to the VAT and import fees on goods from China. The WW support on the EU store also seems to be worse as there are a lot of bad experiences shared in the r/hotas community.
The virpil does 1:1 map to the F18, by using hats push functions as momentary. The only issue with the 1:1 mapping is the radar elevation is swapped with the autothrottle button in its position.
I was hoping you would have covered the sensors in each, their resolution, throw of the throttle, and total sensor positions in that throw.
Nice, good to know. The F16 throttle handle is also a 1-to-1 with a few extra buttons which is nice as well.
Ah, you’re right that would’ve been a great way to break down the sensors. Might throw that together in a follow up vid as that shouldn’t be too hard! Thanks for the suggestion.
I fly in VR and found the layout of the Virpil to be much better to manage. Since you have to go by feel a lot. If I was running of a monitor with trackir I can see the win wing being nice and useful.
I play in VR too, and this isnt an issue for me on the Orion :)
@@Captain_Coleslaw Enjoy your Chinese throttle.
I have no intrest in flight Sims, nor throttles, but the video was set up in the correct informative way for me to watch. Good job
Look forward to more content on your sim rig. This was a comprehensive and to the point video which would be great for anyone trying to pick which throttle to use.
I learned a whole lot about throttles in
Both of the guys in my formation team have had winwing stuff go out on them within a month, over 100 dollars in shipping to have it sent back for repair. one of them did it and the second unit failed within a week.
That's really crazy I've had WW Orion 2 base with f18 hotas for more than 6 months and have already put over 500 hrs on it and the ONLY issue I've had is the cord you plug into the pc on both the throttle and stick base wiggling it's way out of the base just enough to not read my inputs but I just plug it back in and in under 5 seconds I'm right back in the flight like nothing happened (one time I even notched a missile while plugging it back in lol)
I am ready to pick up a new throttle, I have an X-56 now, but the joystick broke a lever switch on it, so I replaced it with a Winwing F-16ex stick and I was really surprised at how nice it is, so I was really on the fence about picking up either a Winwing or a Virpil throttle and I think your video helped me, I think I'm going with the Winwing. Great video, thanks!
The exact video I've been looking for thank you
Where do you recommend binding the Zoom for DCS on the WinWing Throttle? This is extremely important to me. Could you maybe even include it in a future video? Major thanks.
I always put the DCS zoom on the DIAL axis of the throttle base, which is the aft lever. I even use that same axis for zooming in P3D and MSFS.
@@bretttrommler756 Thanks a top for the input!
having used both assemblies for DCS, i would agree with most of your statements. I have however switched completely to Virpil for one main reason. Although 99% folks in my squadron use Winwing and have never had issues with their HOTAS's, I on the otherhand have had nothing but. the highhats on the stick went completely out twice on both the orion 1 and orion 2 that replaced it. The right throttle stopped funtioning on the orion 2 throttle as well as the radar inclination/declination switch and a plethora of other issues that occured all within months of recieving them. although Winwings customer service is good (at best and once you have taken weeks to prove that it is a manufactures defect by sending photos and videos of the issue) it takes weeks to get replacement parts in from them and even then you have to not only pay shipping of the new part but custom fees as well. last part that was sent to me was a small circuit board for the TDC slew that was the size of a quarter that cost me $64 in shipping and custom costs and took 3 weeks to get to me. I have now owned my Virpil Hotas assembly for the same time frame as both my orion 1 and orion 2 and have had no issue what-so-ever, so i can't attest to Virplil customer support. There are two things i prefered the winwing over the virpil. The first is the threeway switches as opposed to the twoway on/off switches on the virpil. second is the software. Although the virpil software is a much more powerfull tool compaired to winwings Simpro, it is not very user intuitive and takes some research to even have a base understanding on how it works. i wish there was a way to replace the metal switches on the virpil with threeways.
Just for the record. I had the exact opposite experience with Virpil. Guess it can happen everywhere.
One thing that annoys me with my Orion 2 is the placement of controls above/behind the throttle handles. For example, in a full throttle takeoff you have to reach behind and under the throttle handle to raise landing gear.
Exactly. Not the most ergonomic setup, to be sure. These days when I’m taking off, as soon as I put the throttle to max, even before I release the brakes, I find the gear switch so I can raise the gear asap without having to fumble around for the switch whilst trying to keep the plane in the air.
@@bretttrommler756 Same - And I’m in VR so from the moment I throttle up for takeoff my hand is on the gear switch.
Another plus for the WinWing base is it can be customized with F16 throttle and the KA50 collective as well as the standard F-I8 throttle
One of the best video comparing both throttle. Would be great to see you compare base for a joystick between winwing and virpil.
You know what? I’m late to the comment section, but I will say one thing to point out with WinWing is that their springs break decently easily, but the experience I’ve had with them is they respond quickly, and with the springs I’ve broken (one on throttle, and one on joystick) they sent me two of each rather than just one. They also responded quickly and since I sent photos of the issues, there was no back and forth.
I love my Virpil throttle, I upgraded from an X56 and before that a T16000
I'm terrible, brought my ''VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Throttle'' over 2 yrs ago and just haven't got round to using it yet, jeez it'll be a museum piece before im done.
Virpil absolutely makes you pay VAT in Europe, as they are required. It differs by country, usually somewhere around 20% of the base price and shipping costs. The difference is that you pay your VAT directly when ordering at Virpil's EU shop. With WinWing, you yourself are the importter and must pay VAT upon delivery or shortly thereafter.
I've just upgraded from the Thrustmaster Warthog to the WINWING Orion 2 HOTAS with F-15EX throttle grip.
Awesome reviews, short, simple, to the point and very informative! I have been looking at the Virpil setup but trying to decide on just text descriptions isn't easy at all, so being able to watch you describe each button and position was very helpful.
In addition to that I had not heard of WinWing before, so finding out about another option out there was great! One of hte challenges I've run into with Virpil is while they do ahve an US site now, they always seem to be on back-order which is quite frustrating. I haven't' been impressed with VKB either, and my poor old X56 while is OK, it's getting some slop in it so it'll be nice to repalce it with a better quality.
Looking forward to future comparison/reviews, this one was very well done!
Man I switched from an X-55 to a VPC Constellation and CM Throttle about a year ago. Just finally got around to setting it all up and getting some actual hands on time with the new stick and throttle the last few weeks. It's hard to describe how big a step up it feels.
EU VAT depends on country, but it's commonly around 20-22%.
For build quality it would have been nice to see the internals. Designs with parts that can easily be self-serviced are some of the things VKB and Virpil are known for nowadays. It would have been interesting to see how Winwing stacks up on that front.
Another commenter asked for a thorough comparison of sensor range to throw and I was considering making a follow up vid. Might throw this in there as well. Thank you for the suggestion.
I did the math for both WW and Virpil last year ... I *think* Virpil have reduced their prices slightly since then, so this might not be accurate any longer, but: I'm pretty sure that without finger-lifts, the Orion 2 would've been around €400, all in (perhaps slightly more to cover the carrier's "handling charge") while the Virpil would've been around €500. These days, the Virpil is ~€450 and €404 or so during their X-Mas sale when I bought. Since they sell EU to EU, I had zero additional cost beyond what I paid them. With WW, shipping is a little more complicated and costly.
In my country, VAT is 19%, which you pay on the sum of product cost and shipping cost. Plus that "handling fee" I mentioned which the carriers charge for taking care of import duty stuff for you. I ordered a Delanclip-set last year from the UK (~60 GBP item cost) and handling fee was a whopping €20 on that.
I have a cm3 virpil throttle. The internals are amazing
its not just VAT, its also customs and fees
yeah i have the winwing and i have issues with the throttle lock mechanism and the throttle detents, not sure if its the product or i just didnt put it together correctly, it is easily fixable but after 10 or so hours of flying it needs to be adjusted again
3:35 25 buttons on the WinWing handles? With the inputs you listed right before that you get only 20 inputs, where did the extra 5 come from?
Huh, you're right. Oatmeal brain from writing/shooting/editing this in one day i guess. Apologies
@@esodavr No worries, I was worried I'd missed something. =)
I hVe a Virpil CM3 throttle. It has the New detend levers with adjustable detends. One thing that Looks very different compared to your cm2 is the electronics and cables inside. It Looks much better and cleaner on my cm3.
That’s good to know, I was hoping and assuming on the cm3 that they’d clean that up
I had no luck with winning customer support when my entire throttle quit working. It lights up but not recognized
question are games you play(for example war thunder sim) even worth that high end quality and price?
I enjoy my Orion 2 a lot. And glad I upgraded to it from my old x52
The Winwing button placement, just the warthog throttle, seems totally random. This probably makes total sense in the aircraft they are used in, but in gaming it is very unintuitive and hard to find input bindings that make sense.
The biggest problem I see is that many cockpit games tend to profit from VR and are more and more played in VR, and you can't really use such complex arrays without looking up the inputs from time to time. So I think an orderly arrangement is really important here.
I also have troubles with the warthog throttle without VR, as there are so many element like 2 way switches (momentary and non-momentary), 3-way switches, single buttons, etc. When all I want is really an orderly aligned set of as many buttons as possible. Like the 6 ones on the virpil, but instead of all the other stuff i would just want like 8-10 buttons. Additionally 2 axis, 2 encoders etc. and you should be mostly set.
True. I have the Virpil CM3 and im in DCS VR. Don`t think the winwing layout would work for me since I wouldn`t be able to find the buttons and switches fast enough.
I use my Orion 2 as a daily driver 'general' throttle. I have the finger lifts; but opted out of using the center detent, so its just the detent before AB and the hard stop before the engine cutoff switch. fantastic for Elite, SW:S, DCS, IL2, MSFS and even Kerbal Space Program. Have the Orion 2 stick base with the F16 EX stick. I really wish Winwing would release an update that allowed the F16 EX sticks vibration to work by any rumble call a game makes so it would work in other titles....
Very fair review. I have the Orion 1 I guess. When I was in the market to upgrade from my Logitech X52 about 2 and a half years ago WINWING had just started offering the ORION 2 series and the HOTAS I have was marked down for clearance. The boxes read as follows ORION GENERIC THROTTLE SYSTEM and box 2 reads THROTTLE HANDLE Of F/A -18 H.O.T.A.S. and was sold with the flight stick of the same gen 1 included for a steal of a price I wont mention how much but I got the entire HOTAS for the less than the price you listed for the VIRPLE CM2 Throttle. That was the main reason I went with WINWING ...PRICE...but after almost 3 years I can say I am glad I was able to get such a great product at such a reasonable price. The Orion 2 is more ergonomic in some areas as to WINWING learning as they grew. Yours there in the video is much more interesting to look at with the raised surfaces , trims and covers while mine is just a rectangle back LED lit metal black box with no finger gates. But its a tank and has not let me down not once not ever not yet..
Could you please tell what mic you used while recording the part from 10:11 and further?
Just my Logitech G733 headset
Great and fair breakdown!
I have the Virpil Mongoose CM2 Base and stick. The base is very good but the stick is not, very plasticky so i use the TM Warthog F-16 stick on the Virpil base. As i am going to order a winwing throttle i wonder if the winwing sticks fits on the virpil base, do you know?
I'm currently using the TWCS but may soon buy one of these two (if the TECS does not come out soon). After watching this video, the Orion 2 looks more promising. But I have one concern. Currently I use the wheel on the left side of the TWCS for zooming in and out in DCS, and I want to do the same thing with a new throttle. Problem with the Orion 2 is that it does not have such a wheel on the throttle itself but the Virpil does have one. On the Orion, I would have to use one of the two grey axes on the base for zooming in. But can these two base-axes be reached easily when the hand is on the throttle itself? Probably not. So I guess that with the Orion I would lose the ability to quickly zoom in and out at any time without taking my hand from the throttle?
There's an axis on the back of the Orion 2 your middle finger can control that flips up or down, then goes to center. You can map it to zoom very easily.
I've used the TWCS, then the WHT and now the Virpil, and the best zoom in/out control on any of the three was the TWCS's pinky dial. You *can* use the ring-finger slider on the VPC for that (it does have a center notch) but I find it a bit too light to the touch and thus prone to accidental input. If they put a stiffer control on there (like a wheel or dial) or made the slider a bit "stiffer", it would be perfect for zoom. Another alternative on the VPC might be the two-way + push hat under your pinky - if you can set your game to accept button-presses to zoom in/out. The push on that hat might be useful to reset to default zoom.
You also might be able to set up the pinky encoder wheel on the VPC for this task, but out of the box, I've not gotten it to work (in IL-2, haven't tried DCS yet).
Those sliders on the WW base, in theory, work great for zoom as well, but I found I never used the one on the WHT, since you need to take your hand off the grip to properly work that slider. You could probably also use the VPC's flaps handle for zoom, but that too is in a similar location as on the WHT, so not super easily manipulated with your hand on the grip.
VAT is 25% and will include a customs handling fee and the tax also applies to the cost + shipping
Ridiculous wow
Great video. I have a F16EX WW grip with Orion2 base. This is probably going to be my next purchase.
Keep in mind Winwing did not design that grip. It's an exact 1:1 replica of F/A-18C throttle, of course a design that had millions of tax dollars poured into it will feel more ergonomic than one designed pretty much from scratch (only slightly inspired by Su-35) by a sim peripheral company.
I wound up getting the Winwing throttle because I was tired of Virpil being sold out whenever I had the money to buy at that moment.... Just for them to open a store in Tampa a week after I got my Orion 2. 🤣
In any case, I've been SUPER happy with my kit so far and to be honest it feels like QUALITY. It'll easily last many, many years. Note that if you order any replacement parts it'll come from China. With the supply chain issues that we were experiencing at the moment when I had to order a replacement bracket it took a bit to get to me, but it was an affordable piece and shipping wasn't outrageous.
I placed an order for a CM3 throttle, Warbrd base, F14 grip at the end of November. I received all the products on Jan 6. So it took about 6-7 weeks for shipment. But yes, all products seem to always be on back order. It was hard throwing down 700 bucks, on back ordered products. LoL.
Have a full Virpil Flight setup, but got my Nephew and Son Winwing Orion 2 setups....Orion 2 is amazing kit! Like my Virpil stick setup better, but that Orion throttle beats the Virpil easily, IMHO. Just the layout is so much better, nevermind the much less chunky grips. Not to say the Virpil is bad at all, but the WW seems just better.
And yeah, the WW software is much easier to use.
I got the CM3 out of a bit of hype, as someone who hadn't owned Virpil products before. That hype meant I didn't look into the functionality that well, which I really regret. Hate is a heavy word, but I've got to admit I really hate that basically every button and switch on the Virpil throttle is momentary and mushy. The momentary part doesn't help with DCS and the mushy part just bugs me out.
With my Thrustmaster Warthog throttle I had a similar cable problem as you mentioned you had with your CM2, so Thrustmaster provided me with instructions to open up the throttle quadrant and see if the corresponding connection was the problem. The connector had indeed come out of the socket, so that was an easy fix.
I purchased a Virpil throttle and I regret it. I love the feel of my Virpil stick but I don't like the throttle and both have had issues. My Stick and base failed after a few months and a wiring assembly had to be shipped to me to fix it. My throttle arrived with a defective button and a new one had to be shipped to me. I've had numerous experiences with the throttle totally being unrecognized out of the blue forcing me to have to re-setup the Virpil software and then re-map my controls in the sims. It's quite frustrating. I've had quite a few issues requiring Virpil support and I do give them credit for assisting me each time but it has been a frustrating experience.
I also don't like how crowded the throttle feels. It's hard to use buttons behind the throttle axis because of the way the throttle arc is designed. I also find it difficult to use some buttons on the front of the throttle grip as it is too bulky for my hand. To be honest, I would rather have kept my old and still performing well Saitek X55 throttle. It may not feels as solid as the metal base Virpil but it actually performed better. I'm interested in the WinWing products now but to be honest it would just be easier to buy a Thrustmaster throttle due to the fact that if it turns out to be defective, all I have to do is drive down the road and replace it. Until these foreign devices become available in North American stores (I'm in Canada) I think I will pass on them in the future.
Did you mention the winwing throttle base is plastic and virpil is metal ? And vice versa on grips
How large are the bases of both of these? Length x width? Maybe even height for reference so I can measure my available space and see if it will fit.
The information about European purchases is incorrect, at least at present time. Don't know about the time when the video was made.
But Winwing now has an European site with prices including tax and free delivery.
On the other hand Virpil stated prices get VAT added on checkout, fortunately they recently started offering shipping (for orders over 100 EUR) which they didn't before.
How does a VKB omni throttle compare to these for jet and WW2 games in VR?
This was an absolutely amazing review, wow..
a little update on orion 2, there is now a european warehouse based in germany, and the thing costs 220 euro or 235 dollars. A very good choice if you ask me!
Nice review - I ordered mine and missed the fact that it doesn't have a z-axis, and I do not want rudder pedals - so it's just sitting there collecting dust, if anyone has an idea os a workaround other than the rudder path please leave comments. I don't mind putting a warthug grip on the winwing base if possible to get my z-axis.
nice
Tell me you know nothing about rudder pedals, without telling me you know nothing about rudder pedals.
@@michaeltrivette1728 what do you mean?
Appreciate the video but as a few others have echoed I don’t think this was a fair comparison. Comparing WW most current version throttle vs Virpils last gen throttle. It should have been the CM3 for this to be a bit more “fair” but even then they are inherently two completely different throttle designs. WW goes for replica style design while Virpil is more multi-purpose design. Again, two totally different design concepts. That said, if you plan to fly multiple aircraft in DCS or fly both flight sim and space sims, Virpil cm3 is absolutely the best bang for your buck due to its versatility, tons of buttons/switches, and great build quality. If you only fly DCS and one or maybe two jets like the 16 or 18, WW is going to give you the better 1:1 controls experience if that’s what you’re lookin for.
Considering I'm not sponsored by either company I found it hard to justify buying a CM3 for the sake of making a review.
Just had a lot of people ask me for comparison on the HOTAS subreddit. I point out in the start of the video that this is a CM2 comparison.
I love my WinWing Orion2 and I found it works great for DCS!
As an expert in both, the Virpil looks nearly like an F15 throttle, the other is a good F18 throttle, and I agree with the WinWing throttle designed by McDonnell Douglas!
How did you label your Virpil LED buttons? To me it lookslike you placed the labels on the inside of the stranparent button top.
The buttons separate into two pieces - a plastic slightly translucent base piece, and the clear plastic piece that goes over it. The manual for the throttle/button boxes shows how to do this.
Can the WW faceplates be removed relatively easy? Reason I ask, is I have a laser engraver and can make custom faceplates for my TM and other HOTAS brands. Can't tell if WW makes that possible.
I play in VR, I don't think I would use those controls in front of the WW throttle, having to go over or around the handle seems complicated without looking. The Virpil has more buttons and switches at reach if I just let go and lower my hand. I think for VR players Virpil is the way to go.
noob question, the MFC's... do they come with the screens/as a unit ?
No, they are thrustmaster cougar MFDs with SongDogDesign adapters + screens
thanks, another question, do they then go directly into the computer, how do you decide to only show the specific screen from the aircraft on that screen? @@esodavr
@@georgelza Yes, they connect via display cables. You could use HDMI -> USB adapters as well. As far as showing the screens, that's LUA export from DCS which is a whole process but it's very well documented across the internet. The SDD screens come with instructions as well for doing it.
any chance you are aware of being able to "export" a MFD screen similarly out of MSFS@@esodavr
How practical is it to use the controls that are on the base in front of the thottles?
i use the f16 handle and can use them pretty easily
The real question is not what throttle to get, but what software is best to use with said throttles or flight stick or throttle combo flgiht stick
Joystick Gremlin! Works for both :)
@@esodavr that should be a great thing to have in your video discription thanks for that recommendation, usually flightstick "included" softwares, really suck
I really APPRECIATE the "not sponsored by companies".
It's very important, because TH-cam has become a place of knife sellers on TV.
I may have misunderstood you but did you say you can't use the Orion thruster for a space sim? For example Elite Dangerous?
You can certainly use it in any game that supports joysticks. It will work in Elite
My CM3 is too bulky. I also don’t like the feeling of plastic so maybe I should give Winwing a try since I only do DCS
I have this Virpil throttle. I'm really curious how your detente works, that doesn't look anything like the version they sell.
Which one has a longer throttle travel distance? I'm sorry if I missed you saying this in the video, but I really didn't hear any information about it. It's quite important because a longer travel distance would give me more precision, so I'd really love to know this.
Which one has larger range of motion and resolution? Or , how does it compare to warthog throttle?
If you want immersion and fly the F18, the winwing is basically the only was to go since the layout of the throttle is 1-on-1.
Great video. Like your style of delivery. What argument are you using in Virpil Link Tool to indicate missile launch? I can't seem to find it.
How would those compare to VKB STECS ?
I like the Virpil more. The "mushy" buttons are non-existing on the mark 3 model.
Could be great to compare to the TM warthog trottle. It seems they finally fixed the slide.
I like winwing better, but the virpil seems easier to use with vr headset? (Easier to distinguish the buttons/controls by touch?)
Hi, Esoda. Thanks for your review of our products, such a great job, we would like to know your feedback on the product.
Thank you for stopping by! I am a big fan of your products! I’ve got the f16 FSSB and your collective as well I plan on getting around to making some vids and reviews on
Does this connect directly via USB or via the joystick? i.e. will it be compatible with the ursa minor fighter joystick?
@@Ryzza5 both connect via usb and will work in tandem w any other stick
I just received my Winwing Orion 2 that I chose over the TM Warthog. My main use will be MSFS. To my deception, I just found out that there is no default settings for MSFS on the Winwing, which makes it a nightmare to set up. Does anyone have a set up they can share? I would also like to set it up for IL-2, which doesn’t come default. Thank you
"Altitude"! LMAO
Also, as an electronic component engineer, I appreciate that WinWing went the extra mile on switch feel/travel/force selection and may have worked with switch manufacturers to improve upon what was available in stock form. Hats off to WinWing (pun intended)!
can you swap the momentary 3 way switches on the virpil base to toggle?
Perhaps with some intense DIY work, but no it does not support that functionality natively
@@esodavr I'm basically asking how easy it is to swap the switches. The connections will be the same
The biggest thing missing is……shipping is like $40-50 to USA. Winwing’s pricing isn’t too bad but the shipping is brutal. Especially if you can’t afford to buy a lot of their products at once. 50 bucks for shipping each time is pretty rough.
Anyone now watching this should be aware that VKB has just released their new hotas throttle and it is
available now also.
how does the winwing not have 4 axis? I see 4 axis controls.
Hello, can i use the WinWing Throttle when my Stick is from Virpil (Constellation Alpha with MongoosT-50M3). Normally is should not get issues when using different Brands for Throttle and Grips, right?
Correct, any games that support multiple inputs won’t care about the brand.
here we are on top construction quality for both.
so I take the one with more buttons which gives me more possibilities.
How do these perform in MSFS? are there limitations to game compatibility? I see lot's of DCS use. I fly prop single engine, WWII birds, and have a penchant for Space Games, though not there yet. Was thinking this might be a workable mix of GA and Space, forward looking. Your thoughts?
No experience w MSFS unfortunately - but they are just programmed as USB joystick devices so should work, you may just have to map yourself.
Honestly for your use case, if the virpil is in budget for you, and you don't plan on spending a LOT of time w the F16 or F18 I'd go for the virpil. Both are solid choices though.
@@esodavr I know they work, and many use the A10 Warthog setup in MSFS. I've been reading up on WinWing and their software seems much more friendly.
Hey! I have been trying to get the Orion 2 set up for SC, but I really do not want to get pedals and I hear they no longer produce that Z axis piece which allowed you to twist the stick for yawing. Is the WinWing Throttle and Stick a setup that can work well with SC (like are there triggers at the back of the throttle you can use) or you HAVE to get pedals?
Thanks for the video!
As far as I know they still haven’t started making the Z axis adapter.
The flight model in star citizen lends itself way more to dual stick than HOTAS, so if your goal is space games I’d reccomend dual sticks!
@@esodavr Thank you!
I am not a super fun of the dual stick, something about the Throttle and the fact of having so many neat buttons on it, it is just so appealing!
Plus as far as I understand it, the Orion doesn't really do dual stick setups (unless I guess you buy a Right handed and Left Handed one, but then you have 2 massive vertical sticks with not a lot extra options in terms of buttons :)
@@BlackRabbitDigitalP I feel you - I think HOTAS is a cooler setup than HOSAS as well. As far as button counts go you actually can get close with some setups.
You are correct, WinWing offers no left handed sticks at the moment. I’d recommend dual VKB glads for best “bang for your buck” dual stick setup.
@@esodavr Thanks I really appreciate the advice, maybe I could get the WW Throttle + the R Handed Gladiator. Just to confirm, there are no rudder levers or anything like that behind the WW Throttle right?
I hadn't realised the modern war was on such a side difference, suddenly fell like I shouldn't have gotten the F18
Shame you've referenced the CM3 price but are reviewing the CM2 throttle...
Really good review, thank you
Wish there was a price point around 250 with build quality like virpil and winwing
Agreed - hoping that's where the VKB TECs fits in
@esoda I don't know if this has been already answered, sorry if that's the case, any noticeable difference in how precise and good the index TDC slew works between both throttles? Is anyone clearly better than the other?
I love my Twcs and have all my profiles perfectly setup, but the only thing is bothering me is how spiky the TDC slew has become lately, which makes it hard to be precise with radar and TGPs in DCS, so I'm seriously considering buying one of these 2
Both slew/analog sticks are pretty accurate from my experience, I can’t really discern one that is actively more accurate or better than the other on that front