I know, right? They're like the guys I see all the time at the range with their AR platforms doing rapid fire for no reason. I'm right next to them with my single shot shooting half MOA groups.
Absolutely fascinating. Another commenter stated that a fluted chamber may relieve the need to have waxed cartridges, would be amazing to have someone make a fluted chamber copy and try it.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the one contemporary cartridge that has a hard coating to lubricate it as well, the 5.7x28mm used in the P90. Similar to the .276 Pederson, it requires a lubricated case to provide for reliable extraction due to the high pressure and the nature of the P90's direct blowback action. As with the .276, the coating is applied at the factory. Unlike the .276, however, the coating is synthetic polymer instead of hard wax. I've always found it fascinating that such a coating is still used as a solution for difficult extraction in such designs.
@@LappmogelIt's for both. Steel can be made non-corrosive in a number of ways, but e.g. stainless steel cartridges will still have a hard time being extracted. Unlike brass cartridges, they'll barely go through an expansion-shrinking cycle when fired, so they might bind to the chamber walls. That's why the soviets were the first to adopt steel-cased ammo: thanks to Fyodorov's insistence, their new cartridges (7.62x39mm, 5.45x39mm) used a very radical case taper to increase extraction reliability. This radical taper meant that bakelite-coated steel cased ammo would still extract at reliable enough rates to justify military adoption. It's also what gave them banana mags. NATO ammo in contrast tends to have even less taper than WW1-era cartridges, so NATO weapons designers had to use tricks like machining grooves into the chamber itself, using gas pressure to push the case away from the chamber walls. This often resulted in fouling and/or violent case extraction. I think it's less of a problem today because we have PTFE. I'd argue it's a really bad idea to use a plastic that never breaks down in disposable applications, but it's not like anyone will listen to me. (Even non-biodegradable plastics break down over thousands of years, fluorinated ones simply don't)
7 ปีที่แล้ว +44
Imagine how the course of firearms development would have changed had we adopted the 276 pederson for the m1. And now we are back full circle with the 6.8 SPC 2.
I'm by no stretch of the imagination "a gun guy" but I've wondered about the same thing for a long time. The Garand's derivatives might have still been in service today. Or maybe the AR10. Who knows what "might have been"?
The United States had a huge supply of ammunition left over from World War I in Congress was being cheap. Not to mention the guy in charge of selecting the round was Douglas MacArthur if he was involved there was a good chance corruption was too.
jjkroll32 Actually, Garand originally chambered his rifle in .276 Petersen which was loaded in 10 round clips like the rifle in the video. It was the Army Chief of Staff at the time, on Douglas MacArthur, who insisted that the service rifle be chambered in 30-06 due to the large stocks of that ammunition on hand left over from the Great War.
the wax would preserve the ammunition. It's the same reason apples are covered in a thin coat of wax for shipping, it actually does preserve them for a longer period of time.
Back in the cobwebs of my mind I remember this rifle, my Uncle had one and it was the first Big Rifle I ever got to shoot..My Aunt sold all his collection..
Great to see you collaborating with some fellow youtuber's Ian. Also just thought i'd say thanks for posting that video on the Owen SMG, im Australian and there aren't alot of video's of it. Keep up the good work.
xaviercourtney I would love to have an opportunity to do a much more comprehensive video on the Owen...when I did that bit of shooting I didn't appreciate what I had my hands on.
I was fortunate enough to speak with one of the few surviving members of the Z Special Unit and he said that the Owen was very well liked by all those that handled it, even a few American soldiers who had a chance to get their hands on it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Special_Unit
spammed999 What bad rumors? Just by looking at it i would say that rust or dirt would be a problem, but that is to be expected from older weapon desings.
the Japanese version (there is a video on this channel), is simpler, inexpensive and can be converted to use .308, so as is way more reliable, it is kind of a improvement of the original one, fed by striper but can be converted to use M14 mags, if someone want to make some reproductions, the idea is to start with this one.
I live in a state with 10 round max and has a huge list of ban rifles not including M1 Garand and the Mini 14, I like a M1 Garand rifles chambered for the .276 Pedersen or .223 with the ten rounds in its unique en-bloc clips. I think en-bloc are cheaper then Magazines and can be sold pre-loaded.
Handling, weight, and shootability may not be that different from the original design of the m1 which was also chambered in a .276 cartridge with a 10 round clip. They only used the 30-06 because the army wanted it.
I handled on of the Vickers PA guns that went to Auction in the early 80s in Britain...Vickers had kept them after the 1930s British SA rifle trials...during WWII they were issued to the Vickers Factory security, and after WWII back to storage. The one I saw and handled, at a Collectors meeting, disappeared during the 1996 Confiscation and Destruction... Doc AV
I stopped watching TFB when Alex disappeared. I really enjoyed his humor and personality. Good the Ian, Taofledermaus, and 22plinkster are still keeping it real otherwise I just wouldn’t watch any firearm channels anymore. I guess maybe because I’m an old man partly and I watch these with my grandsons. I’m just not into the flamboyant gun channels that just blow up stuff and destroy things. I love the art-form and the history and I appreciate creators that respect that. Thanks for this content! I wish good health, happiness and all the best to you and yours!
Sweet video! Thank you! Makes me want to search for one ... primarily because of the ballistics of the round. Example: The .270 is still a fairly popular rifle for good reason. However ... the ballistic data on the .264 (a while back) was markedly better, but no one seems to produce (or provide for) that caliber any more. I do appreciate your work, because I am now old enough to appreciate history that I wasn't a part of.
This mechanism makes me wonder. Did Peterson ever offer this rifle to the Germans seeing as the Heereswaffenamt refused any rifle that worked with a gas port to cycle the next round?
A part of the requirements were: "the rifles were not to have any moving parts on the surface and in case the auto-loading mechanism failed, a bolt action was to be included." I really doubt the german army would even have looked at the gun considering it required waxed cartridge and that meant modifying profuction for 8mm mauser on top on the fact it didn't respect the requirements
@@phantomsoldier497 That strict (initial) insistence on having a back-up bolt-action mechanism has always struck me as really strange. Wonder if it was just the old guard at charge feeling that bolt-action was *the* only way to manually cycle a rifle, and couldn't be convinced until some time later that manually operating the charging handle would work just as well?
I like how that action opens up when ever I shoot I hardly notice the slides locked back I'm just so focused on the sights I don't notice with that I imagine the impulse to reload could be quicker
Forgotten Weapons Wow. Is the composition of the wax coating known and it possible for more ammo to be produced (at least in boutique quantities)? Or is the wax proprietary/ just too specialized for anyone to care?
and now we have .277 fury which is almost the same cartridge dimensionally speaking. (i know hybrid case tech is the bigger deal than the dimensions, but its still kinda nuts that we ended up with a dramatically similar cartridge almost 100 years later.)
I just played Enlisted and got hold of this beautiful looking rifle. I have to say I have been enjoying it in the game and I came here to learn more about it, and I'm only sad that this weapon didn't get spotlight in WW2. Give two dozen of these out to the British forces in Africa and we'll see who's laughing. Love the video and insights.
god damn ian, because of you i now love all these guns ill never be able to buy! haha having said that, aside from a few different Mausers, The Pedersen is my favorite type of rifle by far! my most favorite of them all would have to be the Japanese Pedersen. who knows maybe some day, when i hit the lottery haha.
The Pedersen looks to be a much more elegant and handier looking rifle than the Garand. It would be interesting to see which was the more manageable under combat conditions.
Remigus Ker Originally, the Garand probably would’ve had the same recoil. The gas-operated Garand was originally in .276 and had the same capacity as the Pedersen.
It would have been interesting if the M2 rifle in .276 Pedersen had been adopted. The M2 was essentially the rifle that Winchester scaled down to make the M1 carbine. So a light rifle (7-8 lbs range) with a detachable box magazine, using a short stroke tappet piston and the Garand's rotating bolt. Now THAT would have been a great rifle.
The Garand was originally made for .276 Pederson and only changed at the insistence of the Armaments Board (that's another story). I bet the Garand would have been equally as easy and effective as the PB rifle in that caliber, but we'll never know. Additionally we also won't really ever know if the PB would have stood up to the punishment of a 30-06 cartridge or the rigors of war use as well as the Garand.
As a lefty, you must love the ejection pattern of the Pederson, no hot brass wizing by an inch from your face. Interestingly, I've heard they were designed to eject forward and to the left, when most rifles eject to the right for righties. Obviously it must have ejected more forward than left, I doubt the Army would adopt a rifle that had the potential to spit brass in the face of 90% of soldiers. On a side note, back then, did they force left handed soldiers to shoot right handed, like how schools often forced lefties to write with their right hand? Would make sense with bolt action rifles designed for right hand.
Nice rifle there and an interesting operating system. You're observation on the odd sight picture is interesting to me, because when I used to shoot Service rifle and was using a SMLE No1 MkIII, I found that if I didn't wear dark sunglasses (as you are doing here) my sight picture would sharpen up. This was simple my Iris closing up in the bright daylight and giving me more depth of field in my vision. I think that if you were to try shooting with either clear lenses or slight yellow tint, your sight picture would sharpen up as well and maybe the rear aperture would not disappear so much.
Somehow I missed this Video... That thing is absolutely fantastic!... My God that action works freaky-scary fast!.... My goodness you can't even see it move with the naked eye!.... Sheeeeew!....
Even at surface level the Pedersen soars above the Garand. It just happened to be that the main concern at the time was which gun could be more easily mass produced. Cuz you know, war and stuff.
Beautiful gun, clever and well made, and looks better than a Garand, I also suspect it works fairly reliably without the need for waxed casings if you keep the chamber clean and well oiled...
interesting on the wax coating...maybe more important if it protected against oxygen/moisture than water, at least for considering extending shelf life. If it would protect against the natural oxidation and or corrosion from the oxygen and moisture in the air, probably what made it last so long
The British actually trial e 276 in 1910 following the Second Boer war in which the 303 performed poorly on long range African plains shooting compared to the 7x57mm of the Mauser model 1895 carried by the Boer. However despite superior trajectory and ballistics to the 303 it wore out the barrels of the time too fast, and recoil was considered too heavy for rapid fire. A search for a cooler burning propellant was instigated but then WW1 came along and the project had to be abandoned. Kind of makes one wonder what calibre all of our armed forces would be using today if WW1 had not intervened just at a time when so many countries which ultimately became NATO members had carried on experimenting.
Might be that the long reset trigger is a workaround like the wax? Probably done in order to avoid pulling the trigger faster than the toggle lock would close?
Hmmm, I never really thought of this gun as a serious competitor to the garand but judging by this it was a worthy competitor. I can see it having different reliability issues, but with that big gaping hole in the action and the grease that needed to be slathered everywhere on the garand it wasn't exactly the most reliable gun either.
wojtekimbier Yeah and they couldn't convert this one since it needed wax coated ammo. I think 276 peterson would've been better for the garand as well.
Wow, that toggle absolutely destroys your sight picture upon each shot. Might have gotten a better chance at adoption had he flipped the toggle over and let it 'break' downward. Might have made the receiver a bit bulkier, but it'd still be smaller than the Garand / M14 receiver.
You can thank MacArthur for that .276 cartridge not being adopted. There was valid reasoning behind the decision, it would've been expensive to make the transition. But in the long run I think it would've been the better choice.
From the vantage point of the early 21st century, it is hard to imagine the grinding poverty of the Depression Era. Not just for individuals and families, but organizations, too. The inter-war military was -in part thanks to a 1930s wave of pacificism and anti-war activism sweeping the country, as well as the depression itself - very hard-up for funding. Even if General MacArthur had been of a mind to continue development of the experimental cartridge, where the funding would have come from is another matter. It is too bad that the project couldn't have been shelved until such time as the purse-strings gotten loosened again in a serious way - when war was on the horizon in the late 1930s. The money really started flowing after the Germans invaded Poland in September, 1939.
could you imagine if the development path of firearms in this country would have been different? could you imagine us debating different angles on our delayed actions instead of talking about gas systems? discussing different types of waxes for reloaders and how to properly clean the fired brass?
One question I've always wondered about: in the case of en bloc clip rifles such as the Mannlicher, Carcano and even semi's such as this Pedersen or the Garand, are you able to load the magazine without an en bloc clip? I've only shot milsurps such as the Mauser 95 & 98 plus Lee Enfields, so have no experience with en bloc using weapons.
XLesky No, you can't. Single loading is sometimes possible, but the en bloc clip acts as the feed lips. No clip means no feed lips, which means there is nothing to hold the cartridges in the magazine.
Forgotten Weapons Also, don't forget possibly over stressing extractor when it needs to snap over rim, instead of rim being fed under extractor as intended. This also applies to guns with stripper clips such as M93 and M98 Mausers. Always feed through magazine even for one round. Brittle metal on extractors, such as C96, have been known to snap when someone single loads in chamber rather than through magazine. (Yes, I know C96 does NOT use en bloc clip, but this example referenced to me by an old gunsmith who knew how to fix old military guns.)
M-1 Garand re-barreled to .276 Pederson, .270 Win or .280 Rem would be a nice conversion. In .270 or .280, there is adequate available commercial ammo.
It's like a Luger and an M1 Garand all in one gun.
Introducing, the Lugarand!
...or the Garduger? Hmmm.
Guger maybe?
liked simply because of your cute profile pic :3
M1 luger
it's look like a selbstlader 1906
This could have saved so many thumbs.
Yeah lol
Patrik Howgate No, this will clobber your thumb too if you push the follower down without holding onto the bolt handle.
Patrick Outhier But killed so many hats.
@@Snooty1 ping
@@Snooty1 What about a kling? ;-)
I have no idea how the hell you were able to track down ammo for this thank you so much for sharing this piece of history with us.
Could watch this all day.
Thank you Rock Island Auction Company, very cool!
I may sound clichéd, but that slow mo shot of the clip ejecting was poetry in motion
That seems more like a worm crawling on a garbage bin😂😂😂
Forgotten Weapons and TFBTV being among my favourite channels I highly appreciate you guys working together.
tfb would be great if they could figure out how to use a microphone. so much static on the video.
What a beautiful rifle. It's a semi-auto that still has the overall look of a bolt-action that I love so much.
Everyone: "Im out of ammo"
Ian: "Im out of targets"
8:27
I know, right? They're like the guys I see all the time at the range with their AR platforms doing rapid fire for no reason. I'm right next to them with my single shot shooting half MOA groups.
Absolutely fascinating.
Another commenter stated that a fluted chamber may relieve the need to have waxed cartridges, would be amazing to have someone make a fluted chamber copy and try it.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the one contemporary cartridge that has a hard coating to lubricate it as well, the 5.7x28mm used in the P90. Similar to the .276 Pederson, it requires a lubricated case to provide for reliable extraction due to the high pressure and the nature of the P90's direct blowback action.
As with the .276, the coating is applied at the factory. Unlike the .276, however, the coating is synthetic polymer instead of hard wax. I've always found it fascinating that such a coating is still used as a solution for difficult extraction in such designs.
Just like steel case russian ammo. LOL
@@robertkubrick3738 Is that primarily for extraction or does it has something do with the fact that steel corrodes?
@@Lappmogel Considering the P90 is also a Blowback, bet on lubrication, although I recall that it may also be to reliably feed in the magazines.
@@LappmogelIt's for both. Steel can be made non-corrosive in a number of ways, but e.g. stainless steel cartridges will still have a hard time being extracted. Unlike brass cartridges, they'll barely go through an expansion-shrinking cycle when fired, so they might bind to the chamber walls.
That's why the soviets were the first to adopt steel-cased ammo: thanks to Fyodorov's insistence, their new cartridges (7.62x39mm, 5.45x39mm) used a very radical case taper to increase extraction reliability.
This radical taper meant that bakelite-coated steel cased ammo would still extract at reliable enough rates to justify military adoption. It's also what gave them banana mags.
NATO ammo in contrast tends to have even less taper than WW1-era cartridges, so NATO weapons designers had to use tricks like machining grooves into the chamber itself, using gas pressure to push the case away from the chamber walls. This often resulted in fouling and/or violent case extraction.
I think it's less of a problem today because we have PTFE. I'd argue it's a really bad idea to use a plastic that never breaks down in disposable applications, but it's not like anyone will listen to me. (Even non-biodegradable plastics break down over thousands of years, fluorinated ones simply don't)
Imagine how the course of firearms development would have changed had we adopted the 276 pederson for the m1. And now we are back full circle with the 6.8 SPC 2.
I'm by no stretch of the imagination "a gun guy" but I've wondered about the same thing for a long time. The Garand's derivatives might have still been in service today. Or maybe the AR10. Who knows what "might have been"?
The United States had a huge supply of ammunition left over from World War I in Congress was being cheap. Not to mention the guy in charge of selecting the round was Douglas MacArthur if he was involved there was a good chance corruption was too.
Doesn't that system block your sight picture between rounds, or is it just so fast that you don't notice?
It's so fast you don't notice it.
You definitely know when your magazine is empty
notice me senpai?
It has same system as luger!
*****
the internal magazine that holds the clip will be empty when it ejects the final round.
People: Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover yet.
Me: Ian from Forgotten Weapons and Alex from TFB.
I'm impressed you were able to find functional Pederson ammunition.
A .276 Pederson M1 would be a delight to shoot!
Thank you for the video.
jjkroll32 Actually, Garand originally chambered his rifle in .276 Petersen which was loaded in 10 round clips like the rifle in the video. It was the Army Chief of Staff at the time, on Douglas MacArthur, who insisted that the service rifle be chambered in 30-06 due to the large stocks of that ammunition on hand left over from the Great War.
the slo-mo footage of the rifle viewed from the top and ejecting the cartridge is superb quality. also see 7.55. well made!
the wax would preserve the ammunition. It's the same reason apples are covered in a thin coat of wax for shipping, it actually does preserve them for a longer period of time.
Really cool to see how the brass bounces off the toggle lock in slow motion.
Back in the cobwebs of my mind I remember this rifle, my Uncle had one and it was the first Big Rifle I ever got to shoot..My Aunt sold all his collection..
im sorry for your loss, this is why my gun collection is being given to the most pro gun person in my family
@@IAmThyOverlord Hey! I'm up for adoption here!
Great to see you collaborating with some fellow youtuber's Ian.
Also just thought i'd say thanks for posting that video on the Owen SMG, im Australian and there aren't alot of video's of it.
Keep up the good work.
xaviercourtney I would love to have an opportunity to do a much more comprehensive video on the Owen...when I did that bit of shooting I didn't appreciate what I had my hands on.
I was fortunate enough to speak with one of the few surviving members of the Z Special Unit and he said that the Owen was very well liked by all those that handled it, even a few American soldiers who had a chance to get their hands on it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Special_Unit
Neat rifle. Thanks for letting us watch you shoot it - this is why i watch your channel.
Somebody should make a reproduction of It.
spammed999 What bad rumors? Just by looking at it i would say that rust or dirt would be a problem, but that is to be expected from older weapon desings.
Yeah that'd be great. Maybe change the caliber?
the Japanese version (there is a video on this channel), is simpler, inexpensive and can be converted to use .308, so as is way more reliable, it is kind of a improvement of the original one, fed by striper but can be converted to use M14 mags, if someone want to make some reproductions, the idea is to start with this one.
K.C. Rigney if they make the reproduction (probably will not happen in 100 years) they would probably make it in .308
I live in a state with 10 round max and has a huge list of ban rifles not including M1 Garand and the Mini 14, I like a M1 Garand rifles chambered for the .276 Pedersen or .223 with the ten rounds in its unique en-bloc clips. I think en-bloc are cheaper then Magazines and can be sold pre-loaded.
Yes, thank you Alex for putting your rather rare rifle up for shooting!
Fascinating. Tons of potential. Great to see it in action. Nice piece of history with a lot of "what if?" that goes with it
Handling, weight, and shootability may not be that different from the original design of the m1 which was also chambered in a .276 cartridge with a 10 round clip. They only used the 30-06 because the army wanted it.
I handled on of the Vickers PA guns that went to Auction in the early 80s in Britain...Vickers had kept them after the 1930s British SA rifle trials...during WWII they were issued to the Vickers Factory security, and after WWII back to storage. The one I saw and handled, at a Collectors meeting, disappeared during the 1996 Confiscation and Destruction...
Doc AV
Wow… that’s a travesty.
There’s a much quieter ping off of this rifle when ejecting the clip.
The sound isn’t as iconic as the Garands, but it sounds much nicer to me IMO.
I love this gun so so dearly.
I stopped watching TFB when Alex disappeared. I really enjoyed his humor and personality. Good the Ian, Taofledermaus, and 22plinkster are still keeping it real otherwise I just wouldn’t watch any firearm channels anymore. I guess maybe because I’m an old man partly and I watch these with my grandsons. I’m just not into the flamboyant gun channels that just blow up stuff and destroy things. I love the art-form and the history and I appreciate creators that respect that. Thanks for this content! I wish good health, happiness and all the best to you and yours!
I could only imagine how hard it would be to choose between the M1 and this. I'd pick the Pedersen just it looks sexier
plus 2 extra rounds.
M1 was made in 276, with 10 round clips the had to much 30 06 to switch.
Pederson action is super sexy
No wayyyy the M1 is so sexy it hurts!
One reason is we’ve all seen hundreds of M1 Garands and probably shit scores of them. Exotic always seems sexy until it’s no longer exotic.
8:19 WAH HAAAA
It's a me, mario
I love rifles with the m1 type ejection. the PB rifle even made a slight ding to!
I'm a big fan of 6mm and 6.5mm rifles. Fast, flat, easy on the shoulder. Thanks for the vid.
Sweet video!
Thank you!
Makes me want to search for one ... primarily because of the ballistics of the round.
Example:
The .270 is still a fairly popular rifle for good reason.
However ... the ballistic data on the .264 (a while back) was markedly better, but no one seems to produce (or provide for) that caliber any more.
I do appreciate your work, because I am now old enough to appreciate history that I wasn't a part of.
Two great gun channels come together. Too much fun.
i love how it launches the brass down range like that!
Watching rifles like these shoot for some reason makes me feel better.
very nice gun, i love the way it works.
My God, the Garand in .276 would have been a KILLER. 10 shots, intermediate cartridge, it would have been a proto-AR.
I love it. It’s got very modern styles it looks awesome
This mechanism makes me wonder. Did Peterson ever offer this rifle to the Germans seeing as the Heereswaffenamt refused any rifle that worked with a gas port to cycle the next round?
DaniëlWW2 4 years late, probably not considering the Treaty of Versailles.
A part of the requirements were: "the rifles were not to have any moving parts on the surface and in case the auto-loading mechanism failed, a bolt action was to be included."
I really doubt the german army would even have looked at the gun considering it required waxed cartridge and that meant modifying profuction for 8mm mauser on top on the fact it didn't respect the requirements
@@phantomsoldier497 That strict (initial) insistence on having a back-up bolt-action mechanism has always struck me as really strange. Wonder if it was just the old guard at charge feeling that bolt-action was *the* only way to manually cycle a rifle, and couldn't be convinced until some time later that manually operating the charging handle would work just as well?
@@MosoKaiser Probably just some ill-found paranoia that the rifle couldn't safely fire in battery without a locked breech.
Thanks for sharing! I always enjoy your videos.
I like how that action opens up when ever I shoot I hardly notice the slides locked back I'm just so focused on the sights I don't notice with that I imagine the impulse to reload could be quicker
Unless someone is custom making the stuff somewhere, that's like some 40$ worth of ammo right there...
+The Bellman A lot more than that, actually...
+Forgotten Weapons I was seeing 20 rds for 125$ online, but I imagine that you fired a lot more ammo than what was immediately on camera here right?
+The Bellman We shot 60 rounds total.
Forgotten Weapons
Wow.
Is the composition of the wax coating known and it possible for more ammo to be produced (at least in boutique quantities)? Or is the wax proprietary/ just too specialized for anyone to care?
+Forgotten Weapons
I "envy" you the pleasure :)
and now we have .277 fury which is almost the same cartridge dimensionally speaking.
(i know hybrid case tech is the bigger deal than the dimensions, but its still kinda nuts that we ended up with a dramatically similar cartridge almost 100 years later.)
I just played Enlisted and got hold of this beautiful looking rifle. I have to say I have been enjoying it in the game and I came here to learn more about it, and I'm only sad that this weapon didn't get spotlight in WW2. Give two dozen of these out to the British forces in Africa and we'll see who's laughing. Love the video and insights.
The last one I found on Rock Island Auction, which I suspect is the same one in this video, sold for $23,000.
Love you guys. Thanks for all you're doing to bring light to these legitimate ass kickers.
“Yeah, that could hit your hat”. On a t-shirt, hoodie, button PLEASE. In time for Christmas 🎄? Love the channel.
I don't know why but this video makes me so happy
god damn ian, because of you i now love all these guns ill never be able to buy! haha having said that, aside from a few different Mausers, The Pedersen is my favorite type of rifle by far! my most favorite of them all would have to be the Japanese Pedersen. who knows maybe some day, when i hit the lottery haha.
Awesome gun. Its locking system is just AMAZING. BTW, it´s really beautiful rifle.
Many thanks "Gun Jesus"..!
The Pedersen looks to be a much more elegant and handier looking rifle than the Garand. It would be interesting to see which was the more manageable under combat conditions.
mrbeast85 The Garand probably. More recoil, but I suspect the M1 would be more reliable in combat mess.
Remigus Ker Originally, the Garand probably would’ve had the same recoil. The gas-operated Garand was originally in .276 and had the same capacity as the Pedersen.
It would have been interesting if the M2 rifle in .276 Pedersen had been adopted. The M2 was essentially the rifle that Winchester scaled down to make the M1 carbine. So a light rifle (7-8 lbs range) with a detachable box magazine, using a short stroke tappet piston and the Garand's rotating bolt. Now THAT would have been a great rifle.
@@armynurseboy I think it would've been cool to have a rifle and a carbine that mechanically and physically were near identical, except in scale.
The Garand was originally made for .276 Pederson and only changed at the insistence of the Armaments Board (that's another story). I bet the Garand would have been equally as easy and effective as the PB rifle in that caliber, but we'll never know. Additionally we also won't really ever know if the PB would have stood up to the punishment of a 30-06 cartridge or the rigors of war use as well as the Garand.
this is amazing i love the action in this and the luger
As a lefty, you must love the ejection pattern of the Pederson, no hot brass wizing by an inch from your face. Interestingly, I've heard they were designed to eject forward and to the left, when most rifles eject to the right for righties. Obviously it must have ejected more forward than left, I doubt the Army would adopt a rifle that had the potential to spit brass in the face of 90% of soldiers. On a side note, back then, did they force left handed soldiers to shoot right handed, like how schools often forced lefties to write with their right hand? Would make sense with bolt action rifles designed for right hand.
That's a whole lot of action on that thing! Very cool.
I love these things. I really wish there was a modern toggle lock rifle in 5.56 or .223.
@Reilly McCord That'd be dope
This rifle looks very cool.
very interesting rifle
what an amazing rifle, would buy one if someone today started making it new.
Nice rifle there and an interesting operating system. You're observation on the odd sight picture is interesting to me, because when I used to shoot Service rifle and was using a SMLE No1 MkIII, I found that if I didn't wear dark sunglasses (as you are doing here) my sight picture would sharpen up. This was simple my Iris closing up in the bright daylight and giving me more depth of field in my vision. I think that if you were to try shooting with either clear lenses or slight yellow tint, your sight picture would sharpen up as well and maybe the rear aperture would not disappear so much.
Somehow I missed this Video... That thing is absolutely fantastic!... My God that action works freaky-scary fast!.... My goodness you can't even see it move with the naked eye!.... Sheeeeew!....
7:42 This mans cheek hypnotizes me. Replay when the recoil pulls the stock down and after a moment his cheek fills that gap but not immediately. Whoa.
😃
Even at surface level the Pedersen soars above the Garand. It just happened to be that the main concern at the time was which gun could be more easily mass produced. Cuz you know, war and stuff.
I find it interesting how similar the .276 pedersen is to the new 6.8x51mm with the NSGW
John Pedersen must be chuckling in his grave. 😆
That gun looks sleek and elegant, I like it. Looks even better than a Garand.
Beautiful gun, clever and well made, and looks better than a Garand, I also suspect it works fairly reliably without the need for waxed casings if you keep the chamber clean and well oiled...
interesting on the wax coating...maybe more important if it protected against oxygen/moisture than water, at least for considering extending shelf life. If it would protect against the natural oxidation and or corrosion from the oxygen and moisture in the air, probably what made it last so long
The British actually trial e 276 in 1910 following the Second Boer war in which the 303 performed poorly on long range African plains shooting compared to the 7x57mm of the Mauser model 1895 carried by the Boer. However despite superior trajectory and ballistics to the 303 it wore out the barrels of the time too fast, and recoil was considered too heavy for rapid fire. A search for a cooler burning propellant was instigated but then WW1 came along and the project had to be abandoned. Kind of makes one wonder what calibre all of our armed forces would be using today if WW1 had not intervened just at a time when so many countries which ultimately became NATO members had carried on experimenting.
Also, the wax, when you said the cases are so hot, even more than the no waxed ones that means that the chamber will be cooler.
I found TFB recently so seeing Alex was a bit of a pleasant surprise.
That's an interesting looking rifle, wishlisted
Great video! That rifle is truly awesome. Also Alex seems like a cool dude
Might be that the long reset trigger is a workaround like the wax? Probably done in order to avoid pulling the trigger faster than the toggle lock would close?
Nintendiano Probably.
It would make sense.
Or just really old return spring.
Beautiful rifle!
at the end I was waiting for a tug-of-war with Alex for the rifle......lol
Hmmm, I never really thought of this gun as a serious competitor to the garand but judging by this it was a worthy competitor. I can see it having different reliability issues, but with that big gaping hole in the action and the grease that needed to be slathered everywhere on the garand it wasn't exactly the most reliable gun either.
dreyrugr It was more than a worthy competitor, they just didn't want to change ammunition.
wojtekimbier Yeah and they couldn't convert this one since it needed wax coated ammo. I think 276 peterson would've been better for the garand as well.
+wojtekimbier idk the way the action works I think it would cause you to loose your target quite frequently
Jttv It's such a short flicker you would barely notice something happened.
The Peterson was out of the running before the decision to keep 30.06 was made.
this is definitely a sexy looking gun. the overall design just looks so good.
Yo, I saw your appearance on Gun Stories. I didn't think you'd appear on TV, that's awesome!!!
Wow, that toggle absolutely destroys your sight picture upon each shot. Might have gotten a better chance at adoption had he flipped the toggle over and let it 'break' downward. Might have made the receiver a bit bulkier, but it'd still be smaller than the Garand / M14 receiver.
You can thank MacArthur for that .276 cartridge not being adopted. There was valid reasoning behind the decision, it would've been expensive to make the transition. But in the long run I think it would've been the better choice.
From the vantage point of the early 21st century, it is hard to imagine the grinding poverty of the Depression Era. Not just for individuals and families, but organizations, too. The inter-war military was -in part thanks to a 1930s wave of pacificism and anti-war activism sweeping the country, as well as the depression itself - very hard-up for funding. Even if General MacArthur had been of a mind to continue development of the experimental cartridge, where the funding would have come from is another matter. It is too bad that the project couldn't have been shelved until such time as the purse-strings gotten loosened again in a serious way - when war was on the horizon in the late 1930s. The money really started flowing after the Germans invaded Poland in September, 1939.
That toggle looks really cool
could you imagine if the development path of firearms in this country would have been different? could you imagine us debating different angles on our delayed actions instead of talking about gas systems? discussing different types of waxes for reloaders and how to properly clean the fired brass?
It is nice to see it shot. It seems to be a much better rifle than I had given it credit for.
Wow, this Pedersen guy really seemed ahead of his time, and was constantly stymied by timing and competition.
One question I've always wondered about: in the case of en bloc clip rifles such as the Mannlicher, Carcano and even semi's such as this Pedersen or the Garand, are you able to load the magazine without an en bloc clip?
I've only shot milsurps such as the Mauser 95 & 98 plus Lee Enfields, so have no experience with en bloc using weapons.
XLesky No, you can't. Single loading is sometimes possible, but the en bloc clip acts as the feed lips. No clip means no feed lips, which means there is nothing to hold the cartridges in the magazine.
Forgotten Weapons Also, don't forget possibly over stressing extractor when it needs to snap over rim, instead of rim being fed under extractor as intended. This also applies to guns with stripper clips such as M93 and M98 Mausers. Always feed through magazine even for one round. Brittle metal on extractors, such as C96, have been known to snap when someone single loads in chamber rather than through magazine. (Yes, I know C96 does NOT use en bloc clip, but this example referenced to me by an old gunsmith who knew how to fix old military guns.)
Awww, it looks like the P-08 Luger is all grown up xD
No that would be the DWM SelbstladerGewehr 1906
Shoots better that one would expect
This rifle is extremely interesting... i want one
I love how Ian is so excited to shoot this it's great for him you can tell it's a kid in a candy shop ordeal
I was waiting for Ian to do a fake "bolt and run" there at the end as he thanks the fellow who lended him the rifle!!! ;^D
Woo, Ian, this is the giddiest I've ever seen you. Must of been hard handing that rifle over.
Fantastic, thanks for sharing!
Good stuff, outstanding slow-motion video! I've never heard even the most distant rumor of this!
I wonder if the waxed case could have been avoided if the rifle had a fluted chamber
I really like that action. Nice rifle.
this video makes me so Hornady
Best channel on TH-cam!
M-1 Garand re-barreled to .276 Pederson, .270 Win or .280 Rem would be a nice conversion.
In .270 or .280, there is adequate available commercial ammo.
7mm-08 possibly.