Well, I've not done this with cars or hotrods, but it'd be simple to add variations to the diagram with the appropriate fusing. Good luck with your project and thank you for the kind words.
Holy Moly !! I've not been given 10 stars for anything before !! LOL. But I have to say that if you're thinking that was good you musta really had some baaaad teachers.... But I'll take the compliment. Thanks for watching and commenting !!
Excellent step by step tutorial. I'm saving this, for when someone on a tractor forum wants a wiring diagram for an alternator conversion. Even the older tractors with a "push button" starter instead of a solenoid can use this. Just eliminate the solenoid circuit.
Well Charles, I'm glad you like the effort put to paper. I've used variation of this diagram for mostly tractors from the 40's 50's and 60's. But this '72 Ford 2000 is the third one that comes to mind that I've converted from the '70's. It's probably not going to be liked by diehard 'originalists'...but personally I want a tractor to start and charge as good as possible every time, so I seldom even look at a 6v. And I LOVE the addition of the voltmeter, especially on the Pertronix electronic conversions. Did you see the whole series on this one ? If not, here it is: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1ud7EttOd9HeA6diEdU2tU9.html
Hot doggies, me too. I use these old things but one of these days I'll make me a trailer queen. But I bet it goes back to work anyway....LOL. Thanks Frank for checking out the video.
I used this particular diagram on three Fords now and they are all operating normally, with no problems yet. The oldest changeover was at least ten years ago. One of them got the Petronix electronic conversion at the same time. Here's the latest Ford 2000: th-cam.com/video/5CR-uk17-Fk/w-d-xo.html and here is the whole playlist on the changes: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1ud7EttOd9HeA6diEdU2tU9.html Thanks Robert on the awesome comment !
Good evening Sir, Great electric sketch up and I do thing that is Joe's on his Case tractor receive your nice help a few years ago and you are a true savior to us Sir ! You are a great school trade teacher Sir ! You are also a great Picasso of electrical design SketchUp wire diagram Sir ; ) Have a great week end Sir !
Well one thing for sure Dave, my scribbly little drawing proves I'm not a graphic artist by any means !! Yes, this is a bit more comprehensive than the quick sketch I put up for ol' Dave. I did that one really really fast just to get it to him quickly, but now that it has over 72,000 views I wish I would have made it a lot better !! LOL.
Well, this is certainly easy to amend for use with an older vehicle. Just add the appropriate fuse blocks for all the accessories. If your LED doesn't go out or flickers, you may have a bit too high of wattage LED. I just buy them over the counter at O-Reillys and rarely do I have to change 'em.
Yes, it may help dispel all the mystery behind at least some of the basic circuitry. I can't seem to figure out how to pick the right LED though. I have one that flickers, but the system still operates and charges the battery and there is no drain on the battery in the off position. The rest of them cut off totally. So I just have to figure out what wattage LED is the one to buy all the time.
@@OldSneelock No, not yet. I've taken that particular tractor to my son's property but it will be back in my stable soon. In the mean time, having done several more conversions in the interim, I have found a standard 12v LED on the rack at O'Reilly's that fits a standard 3/4'' hole that works like a charm !!
Now by golly, that is a testimonial for sure. Dang and I didn't even have to offer payment for such primo accolades !! Awesome and thanks for the cool comment.
I do facilities management now but have been doing commercial HVAC since 1987 the last 23 years primarily DDC and I have learned so much from your sheet metal videos.
Cool Kenny, I'm glad to see someone of similar background. I too gravitated to the commercial side and DDC control work the last 20, 25 years or so of my career. I hadn't done any sheet metal fab to speak of for close to 25 years until I retired and started helping a few people less fortunate than I around town that really need a little help. One of my favorite things was converting mid and large capacity rtu's or old air houses to modern DDC controls. Gut 'em and go !! But commissioning new equipment was a blast too.... It kept me clean for a few hours at least. LOL Well I still did a lot of refrigerant piping and large system start ups. Some really large air houses with chilled and hot water coils, boilers, chillers and literally dozens and dozens of vav's and ftu's on larger systems.....commissioning the controls with the control techs....the list goes on. It was a great career, but when the time came after 40+ years, it was time to go while I was still on top of my game. Nothing worse than an old timer hanging on taking up space that a younger man needs. I just wish I had started TH-cam before I retired. I'd have gotten some AWESOME footage of some incredible systems !! I'm glad to see the sheet metal videos are interesting to you.
Great video Wendell! Two points to keep in mind when working on electrical parts any where; first “don’t let the smoke out!” Ans second don’t get your wires crossed!”
Hahahaha...yessir Pat, two good points for sure. I saw this slogan on an electrical contractors van: "Let An Electrician Undo Your Shorts...." Must have been a jokester huh.
Hi Wendell! You did a great job explaining the wiring plan for your alternator conversion. Looking forward to seeing the video of you actually doing it! Thanks for sharing! Happy 4th of July!
Thanks for the well wishes for the 4th Martin ! Yep, we capped it off with attending a half hour presentation of fireworks last night !! Here's hoping all is well down South my friend. Yes, there's a video made but not edited. Today I plan on double checking the new system and firing up the tractor....IF it will co-operate that is.... Time will tell.
My much older brother is the automechanic . I use a single wire Delco on my tractors. Great explanation on the circuit. My Ford came with a amp meter and I never changed it. I might have room on the giant panel to shoehorn in another gage.
An ammeter is just fine but its movement is barely discernible unless accessory load is really high. Which is mostly not the case with these old tractors. However, the voltmeter's movement from battery static prior to starting the engine to alternator output voltage is very easily seen. That's the main reason I like to use them. A one wire, if available is the easiest way to go for sure. No need for the diode, but the voltmeter is still beneficial. Dang, you have a Much Older Brother too eh?? LOL
Thank you for the kind words. I've done quite a number of old tractors with variations of this set up and they all seem to be working fine. Some of them for years !
Hahahaha...that's funny Andrew. If you notice some where hidden towards the end of the description you will find a small surprise...... LOL Sometimes I get real carried away in the description and add a ton of stuff not in the videos. Sometimes not.
@@ButlerOutdoorsCanada Hahahaha....now, if we just had a tooth count on your 44 starter we could see if my extra one on the parts tractor is compatible....jus' sayin'. LOL
Im just about to do mine. Im converting a ford 5000 generator to alternator. The alternator just arrived from the USA. Im an aussie. 👍 Hope to one day to move to the best country in the world and get my freedom back 👍🇺🇲
GOOD LUCK TO YOU in seeing your wishes to fruition. Yes, even with the silliness going on across our nation, I would not want to live anywhere else. I just finished a video on the 2000 conversion and will be editing it soon for upload. It was long and detailed, so unfortunately a lot had to be cut out because no one would watch it. But it is still pretty comprehensive. It'll cover making a new dash pod, installing the guages and the adaptions required to accomplish the tasks, including adding a 1'' spacer to the existing Lucas generator bracket to hold the alternator in alignment. Thank you for watching and for the comment. By the way, did you order a Delco 3 wire or a Delco 1 wire..
I am glad to hear you enjoyed it...as a matter of fact I just used that diagram to convert the 2000 this was drawn for and uploaded it yesterday. Thanks for the comment Lord Young.
I’ve changed out a lot of theses over the years to 10 si gem alts It’s a great alt and so easy to rebuild Most old tractors around here I charged it out years ago
Thanks Kenny. I appreciate the kind comment. I hope you've gotten to watch some of the older ones. I also have playlists above to get some similar content in one spot.
Oh boy, this has been a long day for me. anyway, it's good to settle down and watch this one. This is a nicely laid out plan, I guess I've never taken the time to write it out before, but your plan will work, for sure. Good to get rid of the problems before they become problems. You know, despite all the 'negative' feedback on Lucas products they did have a very successful run at it didn't they? I am always amazed at this fact!
Hahahaha...yes, they sure have a legacy of failure whether real or perceived, that's just the way it is. I'm sure though that there are literally thousands of good running systems that've never given a fit at all. I just haven't seen them. LOL I usually make some sort of a rudimentary sketch to put in the notebook but this time I thought to just let other fellows listen to the thought process I go through to solve a problem with tractor electrics. One thing I dislike is working through crusted, dry rotted, cracking, greasy, nasty wiring filled with dead spiders, wasp and mud dauber nests to figure out just why an old machine won't charge !! I like nice shiny multi-colored wires to work on.....
@@tractorman4461 On the last part of your reply, yes, me too, I may look like I've been working in a trash pile, but I too clean off a machine, ( as much as possible ) before I start working on it. I hear you!
Thank you, its easily adaptable to many tractors, but probably not the best for the old N series Fords unless you totally gut them and start all over like I did on this 2000.
This is easily adaptable to many tractors Gary. It probably won't work just like this on some of them, so a bit of adapting may be required. But the basic circuit should remain the same.
It's pretty easily adaptable to help get through other tractors electrical issues as well. I just don't like the Lucas electrics on this series Fords. This way all the parts are auto parts store available. No special OEM Ford parts needed.
Hello Tractorman44, great explanation. I think I have a need to add a resistor to bring the voltage down to 8-9 v at the + side of the coil when running. While starting I bypass the resistor (connect to the line out) since the starter motor itself pulls 2-3 v. I am redoing an old IH 4 cyl with a delco 3 wire alt, but the number 1 & 2 terminals are in a plug that may require some thinking on the exciter versus the diode. I'll pull the ½ alt connector and see if there are two terminals. I do know one side of the plug feeds a oil pressure gauge then returns to the ½ plug, not sure how that affects the rest.
Sorry Frank, but your comment went to the spam folder and I didn't see it until now. I'd think if you have a 12v coil, you'd be ok without a resistor. That' the way I do it anyway. Now if you have a 6v coil, that's different. On the Delco with the enclosed plug...those are usually one wire. I'm not sure there are terminals under that plug. If not, it should be internally regulated and self exciting at a specific rpm. That's why some tractors have to be revved up to get the alternator to start creating higher voltage. I would suggest also a voltmeter because that will show instantly if the alternator is creating voltage or not. Sorry about the delay in responding and good luck with your project.
Very well explained. I do have a ?. I have a diesel, so I have no coil or distributor, so I can take that out. I don't know what an diode is and I am sure I don't have one unless it is in the solenoid or alternator. I can account for all the wires except for the one to the diode that So where would it be? I understand the light is just an indicator, so I can do without that. I don't have a volt meter (gauge), but looking to put one in the system.
I use a 3/4'' red LED from O'Reilly's auto parts. What LED stands for is Light Emitting Diode. It is something that needs to be added to the circuit because a diode or LED is a check valve for electricity. It only allows it to flow one direction. So when the key is turned on, the 12v power supply flows through the key to and through the LED causing it to light up and because it is in series with the switch it carries the 12v supply on to terminal # 1 which has to have the 12v signal to 'excite' the alternator into creating the 14.6 volts output. As soon as the higher voltage starts being created, it will flow backwards to the LED at which time the electricity is stopped by the LED and the LED goes out. If you have only a wire there all the time without a diode or LED, it could possibly cause an electrical drain. Now some guys like Bret (above) on his David Brown 990 uses a push button (like a door bell) and once he starts the tractor, just pushes the button connected to terminal 1 for a split second to excite the alternator. He has no light or diode at all, just the 12v going through a push button. I hope that helps you a little more. Diesels are much easier to do than gassers.
One trick you can do with "universal" ignition switches on tractors with a separate start button, is to wire the ignition circuit to the "ACC" terminal, and wire only the headlights/ lights to the "IGNITION" terminal. That combines both ignition and light switch, and the tractor will run without lights in the ACC position, and run WITH lights on in the "run" position
Yessir, you are correct. Most all my old tractors don't have lights or any load other than ignition and recharging the battery. This little Ford is the first one in a long time I even connected them. That's because it went to my son and he will haul wood and move snow in the dark because of his work schedule. Thank you for the additional input !!
I have to take the alternator in for testing in the morning. When I wired the tractor I used the original starter relay. The start button grounds the S terminal and energizes the coil. It went bad after half a century. I took it in to get a replacement. That was May. Today I figured out the one I got was backwards. The S terminal has to have 12 vots applied to it to pull in. 😔 I fiddled with the wires and managed to get it to pull in with the starter button. Now the alternator is grounding through the case and draining the battery.. It's always Sumpee!
I'm actually embarrassed to say I have two factory made testers and one shop built tester and I don't really know how to use any of them to my satisfaction. They are set up in a variety of ways. One is Delco alternators only. One is for Delco alternators and generators. One is any combination or alternator or generator for Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Ain't that crazy...? Its always been a 'winter' job, but winter is always busy as the rest of the year. LOL. Fwiw, on the old Ford conversions, I don't use the factory button that grounds the circuit. I just add a pushbutton under the dash to go to the solenoid. But you are right...it IS always sumptin'..... or TWO sumpins'...
Cool. Rebuilding a working item is great. I too want to know how to used hydrolics with or without a water motor to turn a crank shaft . I think it would take four or six hydrolics mode power, and alternating like lifters ...but are connected at opposing side to keep pressure going . The slide of hydrolics should be enough to feed alternator and keep a battery going, the motion if continual should be cross fed for correct power pressure and I think we can go with ease of fossil fuel. Now I know, it's for my patent but it seems like a good mix. The other details can be worked through. Draw away
That's certainly a robust suggestion, but I don't think I have the mechanical knowledge to create a drawing for that which you desire Margaret. But keep at it. Everything begins with vision. Good luck.
If you have a switch that has a 'momentary' position and an 'on' position, they will be wired to the terminal that receives power as soon as the key is turned on. The solenoid will be powered by the 'momentary' position to crank the engine, but the power stays only on the 'on' position when you release the key. That terminal will feed power to the coil supplying the ignition circuit until the key is turned 'off'. It also feeds terminal #2 through the LED to excite the alternator, but once the alternator begins output, the light will go out because the higher voltage trying to come backwards is then higher than the applied voltage. The applied voltage is the 12.6 battery 'static' voltage. The alternator output voltage will be at or near 14.5 volts.
Hi Wendell, this was is if it was mend for me, I need to rewire my Farmall Super A totally, the only difference is it start manually by pulling a rod that activate the solenoid, furthermore I want to use your diagram, but without a wire from the ignition it have only a knob that you pull to switch the system on. If you have time one day (not urgent) please take your diagram and alter it so that it show a On/Off knob instead of an ignition and what wire must I remove from the battery to the solenoid, sorry I am stupid when it comes to electrical systems, I will really appreciate that, I have a coil on now as the 2000 because my magneto is bad. Thanks my friend
I can do that Jan, that doesn't sound like too bad of a job. Do you have access to Delco automotive products over there in South Africa ? By the way, at the end of the video I posted two links to two other tractor conversions. One of them is a Farmall H, which would be almost identical to what you would need on your Super A.
I hesitate to make a suggestion as this is for totally an old 2000 Ford and not really for adapting into an existing system of Ford or another brand. Unfortunately I don't know what the R and F mean on your alternator and I don't know if it functions like the 3 wire Delco. What I used here cannot be adapted into a circuit with a voltage regulator, for instance, because the regulation is all done inside the Delco itself. Sorry Eric for being no help to you.
a.jackson I have a 641 ford tractor with four prone solenoid . My previous solenoid did not have the stamp marking s or i on it ; because of that , I am confuse on how to wire it ,but the new solenoid s and i are stamp on it. One of the wires goes to the button switch on the transmission. Can i by pass this button switch by using your diagram above. By the way a great job
I wouldn't think so. At least I wouldn't suggest it Anthony. This is for a total rewire from Ford's Lucas set up with electrically operated gauges with sensors to standard gauges you can get at any auto parts store. And this is for NEGATIVE ground systems. So No, I would not use this on yours....unless you gut it and start all over. I wouldn't even suggest that for you if all you have is a bad solenoid. On your solenoid, there should be two small connections and two large connections. The two large ones of course take battery power to the starter motor. The two small wires are just the 12v coil inside that when energized with 12volts across them close the contacts between the two large terminals. Without being there with 'hands on' I just can't tell you for SURE what you need to do. Most of the push button starters on the top of the transmission housing just complete the ground circuit. I know this is confusing, but I don't want you to develop more problems for yourself.
Great video. My confusion is with the coil. Some12 volt coils have an internal resistor and some system you have to add a resistor. I'm confused on this. How do you tell the differance with the coils?
Actually the ones the are internally resisted don't actually have a 'resistor' in them. The additional resistance is created by the length of the windings. So a 12v will have a higher resistance than a 6v coil. I can never remember the actual readings without referencing my notes, but if you have one of each, you can easily see the difference with a cheap digital ohm meter.
@tractorman4461 I have a 1951 Ford 8n that has been converted to 12 volts. and I have another 1951 Ford 8n as a parts tractor. The running 8n has a resistor, and the coil ohms reading is 1.9, and the coil that came with the parts tractor is a reading of 3.0. I was reading that you get a stronger spark with the 6 volt coil with a resistor. Have you ever heard of this? Thanks for the reply.
@MrAlittle5150 Six volt systems gave a stronger spark because they were positive ground. It took more of a push to make the spark jump with that polarity. But putting a 6 V coil on a system that’s converted to 12 V will shorten the life of that coil. The external resistor that’s added to a 6 V coil helps extend the life. And in some cases, they don’t fail at all. so is your 12 V conversion a negative ground like normal modern 12 V systems? Or is it still positive ground.
@tractorman4461 I'm assuming negative ground. The battery is negatively grounded to the tractor. Another question : What's your opinion on electronic conversion kits for these tractors?
@MrAlittle5150 yes. It’s negative ground then. I would not convert a front mount to electronic ignition. But a side distributor I wouldn’t hesitate. But there are things to consider though. 1) you MUST always have a fully charged 12v battery. The ignition requires that. Remember that at only 12.2 volts a 12 volt battery is only at half capacity. Yeah, that’s right. The starter will drag to voltage down to 8 volts or lower at that point causing the electronic to not fire. 2) an instant of reverse polarity with jumpers or a charger while starting will kill the module. 3) it’s strongly suggested to change the plug wires and install the recommended flamethrower coil with the electronic module. The replacement wires will be automotive style wires to contain the much higher signal going to the plugs. The old wires will have a tendency to leak, draining the spark (so to speak).
Thanks for posting this video. I have a few older Same tractors here in Costa Rica that I often have electrical problems with because the mechanics here seem to like to leave the electrical system in shambles when putting everything back together again. I need to learn how this stuff works because my electrician can take forever to come out to the farm when I call him. I'm assuming the diagram is pretty much the same for a diesel engine just no coil or distributor. What is the 2nd terminal on the alternator for? if it were meant to just be connected to the positive output I imagine it would just have an internal connection. Also if the tractor has lights what does the diagram look like for connecting those in this sort of system? Thanks again for sharing this. A lot of the other videos I've watched were a lot harder to follow and understand.
How's things in Costa Rica Siggy ? Terminal #2 is responsible for monitoring the condition of the battery's charge, providing input to the alternator how much to increase or decrease its output to attain the desired charge in the battery. Without it connected, the output regulation is erratic as I understand. Terminal # 1 is the 'exciter' terminal that must have 12v dc applied to it in order for the alternator to begin creating its voltage output. Some guys wire it through a toggle switch, turn it on, get it to start charging then turn it off. But that's what the diode does for us automatically. Remember there is a minimum rpm the alternator must be turning in order for it to begin output in addition to having terminal #1 powered. That rpm varies. There are special 'low rpm exciters' in some alternators built specifically for the low rpm tractors. With lights and other auxiliary loads, I would power a fuse block with a hot wire off of the key switch. Then wire in all the lights or other loads through switches from individual fuses then return the other side of the 'load' to a negative terminal block, grounding to the tractor frame. Wired off the key switch, the lights and loads cannot be turned on without the key in the on position, minimizing the potential for running the battery down if a light is left on. Make sense ?
@@tractorman4461 It does make sense. Thanks a lot. Things are OK here in Costa Rica. The weather is great. The government could be better, but that's pretty much everywhere.
Sir are you familiar with gm's R terminal bypass wire? Im in cinde of trobel me e core type ignition coil does not like that bypass wire aperantly me 4 pin gm ignition module is sensitive and I do have linear positive voltage regulator inside me dashboard so me fuse just pops when I try to use that wire . So any ideas how to by pass that problem on a singel hei e core type ignition coil? It has some thing to do with polarity I supose .
I really can offer nothing to help. All I know on the alternators is how to make them work for the old antique tractors because both the tractors and the alternators are simple. I don't get involved in the automotive side at all. But I can offer you good luck in finding a solution Elvin.
I don't use the ammeter at all on my old tractors David. With such a small load on them powering mostly only the ignition they usually barely move off the center but the voltmeter literally jumps from battery static voltage of 12.6 or so to 14.6 instantly when minimum rpm is attained and output begins. If your battery is weak and low on charge and needs a jump, then the ammeter will show pretty good until its brought up to full charge, then it'll go back to barely minimum. It would be beneficial on newer tractors with more electrical loads on board or powering electric sprayers or other external 12v equipment though, I agree.
You’ve done several videos on alternator conversions, could you do a tutorial on a 12 volt Meg ground system? I have an Oliver 770 I’m struggling with. Could you help?
Well, I'm not much on trouble shooting existing wiring....I usually gut all the old stuff and go back with new wire and connectors making sure all contact points are sanded and shiny. Is yours still a 12v generator? with regulator?....or alternator. What kind of issue are you having ?
That’s what I’ve done with this tractor,all new wiring what I’m struggling with is when I switched it to negative ground Im not sure I’m wiring the gen light correctly. I wasn’t necessarily asking you to diagnose a problem but more to explain how the system works and what it would require to reverse battery polarization. Thank you for responding!
@@braddecker5588 Have you by chance re-polarized the generator to negative ground? The main components to be concerned with in changing grounds is the battery of course, the ignition coil and the generator. If you've not flashed the field coil of the generator to reverse its polarity it may be contributing to the generator light problem, don't know. Still, the 3 main things to be concerned with are the battery, coil, and the generator for reversing polarity. If its still a generator, does it have a cut out or standard voltage regulator? I'm still shooting in the dark though...I don't know for sure yet if you've done the alternator conversion or still running with the generator.
I need to apologize,,, this is my first time chatting on this platform. I don’t realize there was more to your response. I am still running a generator and the regulator is a 3 wire. It’s a 12 volt system. And I did repolarize it. I guess one thing I’m confused about is,,,,, the bulb acts an exciter is the wire off of the regulator going to the bulb hot or is it ground?,,,,, I see on several diagrams a wire going to the bulb off the ignition switch. I have seen a couple with the opposite side of the bulb grounded. I don’t want to wire it backwards and short something out.
When I used this diagram to install the conversion I realized that I had missed the switch. If you watch the video set in the playlist on the Ford 2000 you can see where I caught it. Here it is to make it easy for you to find: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1uBYT70un1MnWxpiZ8f017c.html
Nothing special. Just off the shelf O'Reilly purchases. I like the small ones that pop into one of the small dash holes, sometimes I have to drill one with a unibit though. I do have one that is slightly too high of wattage because though it does charge perfectly, the diode continually flickers at a low idle. The lower the wattage (if you can find it on the pack) would be the best idea because it only needs to feed 12vdc to terminal #1 for a split second to initiate excitation. Once that happens, the higher output voltage of the alternator tries to feed backwards through the diode and stops the flow, turning the LED out. A lot of guys wire a hot wire to a toggle switch on the dash, then on to the terminal #1. They start the tractor and once at rpm, flip the switch on and off immediately to excite the alternator. The diode does it automatically plus by turning off, lets you know the alternator is providing output. Other guys connect a short wire to terminal #3 and leave it hang loose. They start the tractor then bump #1 with the jumper to excite the alternator. That not my preference as I like the diode. The redundancy though of adding a voltmeter to the circuit is great because you can see the 12.6 v static battery voltage change immediately to the higher 14.6 alternator output. Also as soon as the key is switched on you are now able to SEE where the battery voltage is before you try to start it. If it's even as low as 12v, it should be boosted momentarily for the start. Thanks for the question. I hope the answer was satisfactory.
Hook it across the + and - terminals of the battery to see which way it lights up. That will help you determine which one is positive and which is negative. If you notice my diagram, the tractor is now negative ground so the positive side of the LED goes to the ignition switch, because it is getting power from the positive post. When the ignition switch closes, it then sends the 12v positive signal to the LED to light it up. Once the alternator starts creating output at its required rpm, that voltage will be about 14.6 and will try to go backwards through the LED. Because a diode is a like an electrical check valve, the higher voltage cannot pass so the LED goes out. That tells you the alternator is putting out voltage. At the same time, you'll see the voltmeter jump from battery static voltage of 12.6 to 14.6 or 7. Hope that helps. Its worked for me on many tractors. Occasionally I get an 'off the shelf' LED that flickers and doesn't go fully out. I just get a different wattage LED and change it. Sometimes the parts do not have a wattage on them and that causes the problem.
If the wire fried, there has to have been a direct contact with ground. Yes, this one is converted to a 12v negative ground Petronix Electronic ignition system. Polarity is of the utmost importance with all electronic ignitions. I think there are many variations of wiring the tractors, but on this type of conversion the hot wire goes to the solenoid off of the starter button or the starters 'start' position to energize the solenoid. Hope that helps Gary. It can be confusing to adapt into a wiring circuit which is why I gut the whole thing and eliminate any possibility of wiring issues.
I think the one wire alternator is the one that needs no external excitation.. and I think its the 3 wire regulators that require it. That's what terminal 1 is...its the excitation terminal with terminal 2 being the feedback so the internal regulator knows to increase or decrease output. Make sense Jim ?
I'll be back later on this, but yes, right off, get rid of any and all things that have 'Lucas' on it. I've come to believe in the old saying, or title of " Lucas, the Prince of darkness!'. Side note: Who is this 'young fella' presenting this video, must be Wendell's "much younger brother" ( The hair cut!! , good change :) , yeah I jealous, 'cause you've got hair to cut, at least! Hahaha.
Hahahaha...reminds me of the time back in '75 when me and the Missus was dating. I showed up with my mustache shaved off and she would NOT get in my van !! She thought I was a younger brother playing a trick on her. True story. I had to pull out my drivers license before she would believe me. LOL. No I don't let her forget that at all.... Btw, check out Bret4207's comment about the Lucas products before you follow up with another reply...You'll like it I bet.
@@regsparkes6507 With your previous comment, I KNEW you would like the list. I sure did. Hadn't heard most of them either. Some are tried and true though....
The standard 12v external voltage regulator is usually simple. Usually the generator has an F and A terminal as well as does the VR. Connect Fto F and A to A. Then the B should go to the 12V batterys positive terminal. There could be variations of terminal designations from Ford to Case to JD etc. The 'thousand' series Fords all have Lucas electrics and its DEFINITELY different. Generators are one of my many weak areas though, I gotta tell ya. If they don't work, I gut gut the wiring and go back with a Delco 3 wire or Delco 1 wire. Also I use Denso 1 wires as well.
I just use whatever round one O'Reillys has on the wall. Chinese manufacturers don't seem to have the wattage on the package, but if you get one too big, the LED will usually just blink, but it will still provide the power to excite the alternator. I used to use Radio Shacks standard diode 1N4001 if I'm remembering correctly. They've been gone from this area for along time and I finally ran out of stock year ago. That's when I switched to the LED's for indication of output as well as excitation.
The LED only allows power to flow one direction. So once higher output begins flowing backwards from the exciter terminal (1) the LED will turn off. I’m not sure a standard light would do that. IF the alternator doesn’t reach the minimum rpm to initiate output the LED will not extinguish. Revving the motor usually gets the higher output started from the alternator. Some excite instantly. Others have varying minimum rpm’s to attain output. The standard bulb would probably initiate the circuit but I’m not sure it would shut off until the key is switched off. I’ve not tried it.
@Tractorman44 well, I changed everything over to 12v , replaced the coil, coil wire, ALL the wiring to the new alternator, new ignition switch, coil, condenser, and still zero spark. Cleaned the points, rotor, and cap but still no spark. I'm frustrated.
@@michalhowling3702 First, what Ford is it? I'm not a great 8 or 9n guy at all. But a systematic approach to find the lost voltage is what I do all the time. If its negative ground, start with the voltmeter on the negative terminal and follow the flow of electric...first from the positive post to the ignition switch, then through the switch to the next, to the next etc etc, until you lose voltage. Its usually a simple issue.
I'm getting voltage at the coil, positive side, I get voltage from the negative side if I switch to the negative side of the battery. And getting voltage on both sides of the points with the lead on the negative side of the battery. I believe that's my issue. The one side of the points are not isolated from the system for some reason.
@@michalhowling3702 When I have a problem like yours, I start from the beginning and draw a diagram of what is there. Then look for just WHAT could be the area giving the problem. With the points open, voltage should only be on the incoming side of the points and not on the other contact, because it is not touching. If the points are closed, then of course there will be the same voltage across. The spark at the points is created by the rotating lobe opening the contacts. If you have the same voltage on both sides of open contacts, that is the starting point to go from. You still haven't told me what Ford you are working on.
The 'momentary' terminal of the switch in the drawing only provides temporary power to the solenoid during the starting process. The wire to the #1 terminal feeds off the 'on' terminal to provide 12v input through the LED to get it to begin the voltage output. Once it begins producing the higher voltage, the LED should go out. Does that help ?
Hahahaha....good one !! Yeah, I do NOT enjoy the Lucas systems. The main reason is the expense of OEM replacements. This way, it's ALL universal and available at any auto parts store.
LED’s only allow electricity to flow in one direction. It comes on when the key is turned on because it’s now getting voltage from the battery. The battery’s voltage is lower than the alternator output so when the alternator begins producing voltage the higher voltage tries to overpower the lower voltage and it cannot flow backwards so the LED goes out. To get the alternator to begin charging it needs to be tickled at terminal #1. That’s what the LED does. The LED turning off after the tractor starts indicates that the alternator is now providing output voltage higher than the static voltage of the battery. Depending on the ‘excitement’ rpm of your particular Delco you may have to rev up the motor at first to spin it fast enough to begin providing output. Hope that helps Fernando.
Reason I'm asking I'm restoring a 68 ford 2000 3 cylinder that has an alternator upgrade and the wires are like tangled up fishing line I got it running but only runs while I hold the key to start
@@mikeprice1816 Usually the three pole had the two large terminals that is the switch. Then the 12v signal from the starter button or key switch energizes the one small pole, with the mounting base of the solenoid providing the ground. The 4 pole gets the 12v signal on one small terminal and the other pole goes to battery ground.
@@mikeprice1816 If its dying as soon as you release the key from the start position, it usually means the hot wire to the ignition coil is powered off the wrong terminal of the key switch. The 'momentary' terminal of the key switch will go to the solenoid and the coil is powered from the terminal that stays 'hot' in the run position of the key switch. Make sense..? There are variations and I don't know exactly what it is you have there but this is what I start with while troubleshooting.
You have good ears. That's the software sound from speeding the video up to keep them as short as possible. I don't even notice it because I can't even hear it. But I found its much better for most of the viewers because leaving in all the dead air space while drawing on the diagram or while laying out sheet metal will cause many more viewers to lose interest and leave.
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I am wiring my car and switching to 12v and putting in a delco alternator your video was the best I ever watched thank you. My car is a 1950 Chrysler
Well, I've not done this with cars or hotrods, but it'd be simple to add variations to the diagram with the appropriate fusing. Good luck with your project and thank you for the kind words.
You certainly are an excellent teacher! 10 stars for this video.
Holy Moly !! I've not been given 10 stars for anything before !! LOL. But I have to say that if you're thinking that was good you musta really had some baaaad teachers.... But I'll take the compliment. Thanks for watching and commenting !!
The most simplified explanation i have ever heard. Thank you sir!
With slight variation it can be adapted to serve quite a few applications. Thank you for the cool comment.
Excellent step by step tutorial. I'm saving this, for when someone on a tractor forum wants a wiring diagram for an alternator conversion. Even the older tractors with a "push button" starter instead of a solenoid can use this. Just eliminate the solenoid circuit.
Well Charles, I'm glad you like the effort put to paper. I've used variation of this diagram for mostly tractors from the 40's 50's and 60's. But this '72 Ford 2000 is the third one that comes to mind that I've converted from the '70's. It's probably not going to be liked by diehard 'originalists'...but personally I want a tractor to start and charge as good as possible every time, so I seldom even look at a 6v. And I LOVE the addition of the voltmeter, especially on the Pertronix electronic conversions. Did you see the whole series on this one ? If not, here it is: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1ud7EttOd9HeA6diEdU2tU9.html
Wendell, best description I've herd . I have done this to all my old tractors as I'm a user not a collector. Thank you
Hot doggies, me too. I use these old things but one of these days I'll make me a trailer queen. But I bet it goes back to work anyway....LOL. Thanks Frank for checking out the video.
This has got to be the best video I've ever watched on the subject thank you very much
I used this particular diagram on three Fords now and they are all operating normally, with no problems yet. The oldest changeover was at least ten years ago. One of them got the Petronix electronic conversion at the same time. Here's the latest Ford 2000: th-cam.com/video/5CR-uk17-Fk/w-d-xo.html and here is the whole playlist on the changes: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1ud7EttOd9HeA6diEdU2tU9.html Thanks Robert on the awesome comment !
Good evening Sir, Great electric sketch up and I do thing that is Joe's on his Case tractor receive your nice help a few years ago and you are a true savior to us Sir ! You are a great school trade teacher Sir ! You are also a great Picasso of electrical design SketchUp wire diagram Sir ; ) Have a great week end Sir !
Well one thing for sure Dave, my scribbly little drawing proves I'm not a graphic artist by any means !! Yes, this is a bit more comprehensive than the quick sketch I put up for ol' Dave. I did that one really really fast just to get it to him quickly, but now that it has over 72,000 views I wish I would have made it a lot better !! LOL.
@@tractorman4461 LOL !!! You are great mon ami !!! Cheers !!!
Outstanding sir I’m working a 63 Chevy C-10 pickup and needed this basic information refresher thank you!!!
Well, this is certainly easy to amend for use with an older vehicle. Just add the appropriate fuse blocks for all the accessories. If your LED doesn't go out or flickers, you may have a bit too high of wattage LED. I just buy them over the counter at O-Reillys and rarely do I have to change 'em.
Very well done and explained. I think the less experienced folks can really get a grasp on how the systems work and how to at least get started. 👍👍👍
Yes, it may help dispel all the mystery behind at least some of the basic circuitry. I can't seem to figure out how to pick the right LED though. I have one that flickers, but the system still operates and charges the battery and there is no drain on the battery in the off position. The rest of them cut off totally. So I just have to figure out what wattage LED is the one to buy all the time.
You might just have a bad LED. have you tried swapping with another verfied one?
@@OldSneelock No, not yet. I've taken that particular tractor to my son's property but it will be back in my stable soon. In the mean time, having done several more conversions in the interim, I have found a standard 12v LED on the rack at O'Reilly's that fits a standard 3/4'' hole that works like a charm !!
Very well explained my friend.....you could have been a teacher in a trade school.....CHEERS
Hahahahaha....oh man Gator, I wouldn't go THAT far. LOL. Thanks for the awesome compliment mon ami !!
That all teachers, no matter the level or subject, would give as detailed an explanation on how to solve a problem. Great video
Now by golly, that is a testimonial for sure. Dang and I didn't even have to offer payment for such primo accolades !! Awesome and thanks for the cool comment.
Best explanation I have ever seen! Thank you!
Thanks Steve for the complimentary comment ! I've found it easiest with a wiring issue to keep it simple and start with a sketchup just like this one.
I do facilities management now but have been doing commercial HVAC since 1987 the last 23 years primarily DDC and I have learned so much from your sheet metal videos.
Cool Kenny, I'm glad to see someone of similar background. I too gravitated to the commercial side and DDC control work the last 20, 25 years or so of my career. I hadn't done any sheet metal fab to speak of for close to 25 years until I retired and started helping a few people less fortunate than I around town that really need a little help. One of my favorite things was converting mid and large capacity rtu's or old air houses to modern DDC controls. Gut 'em and go !! But commissioning new equipment was a blast too.... It kept me clean for a few hours at least. LOL
Well I still did a lot of refrigerant piping and large system start ups. Some really large air houses with chilled and hot water coils, boilers, chillers and literally dozens and dozens of vav's and ftu's on larger systems.....commissioning the controls with the control techs....the list goes on. It was a great career, but when the time came after 40+ years, it was time to go while I was still on top of my game. Nothing worse than an old timer hanging on taking up space that a younger man needs. I just wish I had started TH-cam before I retired. I'd have gotten some AWESOME footage of some incredible systems !! I'm glad to see the sheet metal videos are interesting to you.
Thanks, Wendell, for the schematic and the description of how the system works.
Heck yeah man, no problem !! Not too much to it is there. Just add some simple lights and its good to go.
Great video Wendell! Two points to keep in mind when working on electrical parts any where; first “don’t let the smoke out!” Ans second don’t get your wires crossed!”
Hahahaha...yessir Pat, two good points for sure. I saw this slogan on an electrical contractors van: "Let An Electrician Undo Your Shorts...." Must have been a jokester huh.
Hi Wendell! You did a great job explaining the wiring plan for your alternator conversion. Looking forward to seeing the video of you actually doing it! Thanks for sharing! Happy 4th of July!
Thanks for the well wishes for the 4th Martin ! Yep, we capped it off with attending a half hour presentation of fireworks last night !! Here's hoping all is well down South my friend. Yes, there's a video made but not edited. Today I plan on double checking the new system and firing up the tractor....IF it will co-operate that is.... Time will tell.
My much older brother is the automechanic . I use a single wire Delco on my tractors.
Great explanation on the circuit. My Ford came with a amp meter and I never changed it. I might have room on the giant panel to shoehorn in another gage.
An ammeter is just fine but its movement is barely discernible unless accessory load is really high. Which is mostly not the case with these old tractors. However, the voltmeter's movement from battery static prior to starting the engine to alternator output voltage is very easily seen. That's the main reason I like to use them. A one wire, if available is the easiest way to go for sure. No need for the diode, but the voltmeter is still beneficial. Dang, you have a Much Older Brother too eh?? LOL
@@tractorman4461 Bob is 5 years older most of the time. In the off season he is only 4 years older. 😁😃
@@OldSneelock haahahaha sounds like me and the Missus. I however, and the one that's much older....
That is a fantastic explanation a lesson taught very well thank you!
Thank you for the kind words. I've done quite a number of old tractors with variations of this set up and they all seem to be working fine. Some of them for years !
Thanks again. I have forgotten so much over the years. And I do share your wisdom on Facebook to help others.
Thank you Kirk. I always recommend guys to do a little more research on the subject just to be sure.
@@tractorman4461 an RM690 (Roadmaster 690) diode is only $15.00 and is self-contained.
Electrical is not my strong area but you did such a good job explaining this even this canadian Bushman can understand it!! Thanks Wendell!!
Hahahaha...that's funny Andrew. If you notice some where hidden towards the end of the description you will find a small surprise...... LOL Sometimes I get real carried away in the description and add a ton of stuff not in the videos. Sometimes not.
@@tractorman4461 Holly smokes Wendell you didn't have to do that just for me man!! You're one heck of a good guy man!!
@@ButlerOutdoorsCanada Hahahaha....now, if we just had a tooth count on your 44 starter we could see if my extra one on the parts tractor is compatible....jus' sayin'. LOL
@@tractorman4461 lmao right!! I honestly keep forgetting to look sorry about that man meybe I can get eyes in it today!!
Im just about to do mine. Im converting a ford 5000 generator to alternator.
The alternator just arrived from the USA.
Im an aussie. 👍
Hope to one day to move to the best country in the world and get my freedom back 👍🇺🇲
GOOD LUCK TO YOU in seeing your wishes to fruition. Yes, even with the silliness going on across our nation, I would not want to live anywhere else.
I just finished a video on the 2000 conversion and will be editing it soon for upload. It was long and detailed, so unfortunately a lot had to be cut out because no one would watch it. But it is still pretty comprehensive. It'll cover making a new dash pod, installing the guages and the adaptions required to accomplish the tasks, including adding a 1'' spacer to the existing Lucas generator bracket to hold the alternator in alignment.
Thank you for watching and for the comment. By the way, did you order a Delco 3 wire or a Delco 1 wire..
Great info, video and schematic drawing! thank you
I am glad to hear you enjoyed it...as a matter of fact I just used that diagram to convert the 2000 this was drawn for and uploaded it yesterday. Thanks for the comment Lord Young.
Great explanation! Thanks.
Thanks Mars, for the supportive comment. I'm glad you enjoyed it !!
I’ve changed out a lot of theses over the years to 10 si gem alts
It’s a great alt and so easy to rebuild
Most old tractors around here I charged it out years ago
Yes Phillip, I have done the same thing. To me, I think its best especially if you have a failed 6v generator and battery.
Excellent job Wendell
Thanks Rockee R for the compliment !! I appreciate the time you take to watch and comment.
Very well explained Thank you Sir. All my very best.
Thank you Bobby. I appreciate the time you take to watch. I'm glad to see you liked it.
Your videos are amazing.
Thanks Kenny. I appreciate the kind comment. I hope you've gotten to watch some of the older ones. I also have playlists above to get some similar content in one spot.
Oh boy, this has been a long day for me. anyway, it's good to settle down and watch this one. This is a nicely laid out plan, I guess I've never taken the time to write it out before, but your plan will work, for sure.
Good to get rid of the problems before they become problems.
You know, despite all the 'negative' feedback on Lucas products they did have a very successful run at it didn't they? I am always amazed at this fact!
Hahahaha...yes, they sure have a legacy of failure whether real or perceived, that's just the way it is. I'm sure though that there are literally thousands of good running systems that've never given a fit at all. I just haven't seen them. LOL
I usually make some sort of a rudimentary sketch to put in the notebook but this time I thought to just let other fellows listen to the thought process I go through to solve a problem with tractor electrics. One thing I dislike is working through crusted, dry rotted, cracking, greasy, nasty wiring filled with dead spiders, wasp and mud dauber nests to figure out just why an old machine won't charge !! I like nice shiny multi-colored wires to work on.....
@@tractorman4461 On the last part of your reply, yes, me too, I may look like I've been working in a trash pile, but I too clean off a machine, ( as much as possible ) before I start working on it.
I hear you!
Great vidéo. Thanks you !
Thank you, its easily adaptable to many tractors, but probably not the best for the old N series Fords unless you totally gut them and start all over like I did on this 2000.
Very very good sir. Thank you.
This is easily adaptable to many tractors Gary. It probably won't work just like this on some of them, so a bit of adapting may be required. But the basic circuit should remain the same.
Very well done! Thanks!
It's pretty easily adaptable to help get through other tractors electrical issues as well. I just don't like the Lucas electrics on this series Fords. This way all the parts are auto parts store available. No special OEM Ford parts needed.
Great video, thanks
Thanks again James. This one is a little more comprehensive than the other basic one. I hope it helped you with your tractor as well.
Hello Tractorman44, great explanation. I think I have a need to add a resistor to bring the voltage down to 8-9 v at the + side of the coil when running. While starting I bypass the resistor (connect to the line out) since the starter motor itself pulls 2-3 v. I am redoing an old IH 4 cyl with a delco 3 wire alt, but the number 1 & 2 terminals are in a plug that may require some thinking on the exciter versus the diode. I'll pull the ½ alt connector and see if there are two terminals. I do know one side of the plug feeds a oil pressure gauge then returns to the ½ plug, not sure how that affects the rest.
Sorry Frank, but your comment went to the spam folder and I didn't see it until now. I'd think if you have a 12v coil, you'd be ok without a resistor. That' the way I do it anyway. Now if you have a 6v coil, that's different. On the Delco with the enclosed plug...those are usually one wire. I'm not sure there are terminals under that plug. If not, it should be internally regulated and self exciting at a specific rpm. That's why some tractors have to be revved up to get the alternator to start creating higher voltage. I would suggest also a voltmeter because that will show instantly if the alternator is creating voltage or not. Sorry about the delay in responding and good luck with your project.
Good job.
Thanks Daryl, this is a fair starting point for quite a few tractors. And its easy to adapt to others with a little thought. Thanks for watching.
Very well explained. I do have a ?. I have a diesel, so I have no coil or distributor, so I can take that out. I don't know what an diode is and I am sure I don't have one unless it is in the solenoid or alternator. I can account for all the wires except for the one to the diode that So where would it be? I understand the light is just an indicator, so I can do without that. I don't have a volt meter (gauge), but looking to put one in the system.
I use a 3/4'' red LED from O'Reilly's auto parts. What LED stands for is Light Emitting Diode. It is something that needs to be added to the circuit because a diode or LED is a check valve for electricity. It only allows it to flow one direction. So when the key is turned on, the 12v power supply flows through the key to and through the LED causing it to light up and because it is in series with the switch it carries the 12v supply on to terminal # 1 which has to have the 12v signal to 'excite' the alternator into creating the 14.6 volts output. As soon as the higher voltage starts being created, it will flow backwards to the LED at which time the electricity is stopped by the LED and the LED goes out. If you have only a wire there all the time without a diode or LED, it could possibly cause an electrical drain.
Now some guys like Bret (above) on his David Brown 990 uses a push button (like a door bell) and once he starts the tractor, just pushes the button connected to terminal 1 for a split second to excite the alternator. He has no light or diode at all, just the 12v going through a push button. I hope that helps you a little more. Diesels are much easier to do than gassers.
@@tractorman4461 Yes it does help. Thanks you for the time you spent answering my question.
@@jimmypadgett1460 No problem. Good luck with your tractor Jimmy.
One trick you can do with "universal" ignition switches on tractors with a separate start button, is to wire the ignition circuit to the "ACC" terminal, and wire only the headlights/ lights to the "IGNITION" terminal. That combines both ignition and light switch, and the tractor will run without lights in the ACC position, and run WITH lights on in the "run" position
Yessir, you are correct. Most all my old tractors don't have lights or any load other than ignition and recharging the battery. This little Ford is the first one in a long time I even connected them. That's because it went to my son and he will haul wood and move snow in the dark because of his work schedule. Thank you for the additional input !!
I have to take the alternator in for testing in the morning.
When I wired the tractor I used the original starter relay.
The start button grounds the S terminal and energizes the coil.
It went bad after half a century. I took it in to get a replacement.
That was May.
Today I figured out the one I got was backwards.
The S terminal has to have 12 vots applied to it to pull in. 😔
I fiddled with the wires and managed to get it to pull in with the starter button.
Now the alternator is grounding through the case and draining the battery..
It's always Sumpee!
I'm actually embarrassed to say I have two factory made testers and one shop built tester and I don't really know how to use any of them to my satisfaction. They are set up in a variety of ways. One is Delco alternators only. One is for Delco alternators and generators. One is any combination or alternator or generator for Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Ain't that crazy...? Its always been a 'winter' job, but winter is always busy as the rest of the year. LOL.
Fwiw, on the old Ford conversions, I don't use the factory button that grounds the circuit. I just add a pushbutton under the dash to go to the solenoid. But you are right...it IS always sumptin'..... or TWO sumpins'...
Cool. Rebuilding a working item is great. I too want to know how to used hydrolics with or without a water motor to turn a crank shaft . I think it would take four or six hydrolics mode power, and alternating like lifters ...but are connected at opposing side to keep pressure going . The slide of hydrolics should be enough to feed alternator and keep a battery going, the motion if continual should be cross fed for correct power pressure and I think we can go with ease of fossil fuel. Now I know, it's for my patent but it seems like a good mix. The other details can be worked through. Draw away
That's certainly a robust suggestion, but I don't think I have the mechanical knowledge to create a drawing for that which you desire Margaret. But keep at it. Everything begins with vision. Good luck.
It's helpful.but which post on the switch does the coil wire go and the dumb light?
If you have a switch that has a 'momentary' position and an 'on' position, they will be wired to the terminal that receives power as soon as the key is turned on. The solenoid will be powered by the 'momentary' position to crank the engine, but the power stays only on the 'on' position when you release the key. That terminal will feed power to the coil supplying the ignition circuit until the key is turned 'off'. It also feeds terminal #2 through the LED to excite the alternator, but once the alternator begins output, the light will go out because the higher voltage trying to come backwards is then higher than the applied voltage. The applied voltage is the 12.6 battery 'static' voltage. The alternator output voltage will be at or near 14.5 volts.
Hi Wendell, this was is if it was mend for me, I need to rewire my Farmall Super A totally, the only difference is it start manually by pulling a rod that activate the solenoid, furthermore I want to use your diagram, but without a wire from the ignition it have only a knob that you pull to switch the system on. If you have time one day (not urgent) please take your diagram and alter it so that it show a On/Off knob instead of an ignition and what wire must I remove from the battery to the solenoid, sorry I am stupid when it comes to electrical systems, I will really appreciate that, I have a coil on now as the 2000 because my magneto is bad. Thanks my friend
I can do that Jan, that doesn't sound like too bad of a job. Do you have access to Delco automotive products over there in South Africa ? By the way, at the end of the video I posted two links to two other tractor conversions. One of them is a Farmall H, which would be almost identical to what you would need on your Super A.
@@tractorman4461 Thank You Wendel, we have Delco here, I will come right with your links
Great video! In your video you have terminals 1 and 2. On my Massey with a Perkins diesel I have R and F. How would I wire those?
I hesitate to make a suggestion as this is for totally an old 2000 Ford and not really for adapting into an existing system of Ford or another brand. Unfortunately I don't know what the R and F mean on your alternator and I don't know if it functions like the 3 wire Delco. What I used here cannot be adapted into a circuit with a voltage regulator, for instance, because the regulation is all done inside the Delco itself. Sorry Eric for being no help to you.
a.jackson I have a 641 ford tractor with four prone solenoid . My previous solenoid did not have the stamp marking s or i on it ; because of that , I am confuse on how to wire it ,but the new solenoid s and i are stamp on it. One of the wires goes to the button switch on the transmission. Can i by pass this button switch by using your diagram above. By the way a great job
I wouldn't think so. At least I wouldn't suggest it Anthony. This is for a total rewire from Ford's Lucas set up with electrically operated gauges with sensors to standard gauges you can get at any auto parts store. And this is for NEGATIVE ground systems. So No, I would not use this on yours....unless you gut it and start all over. I wouldn't even suggest that for you if all you have is a bad solenoid.
On your solenoid, there should be two small connections and two large connections. The two large ones of course take battery power to the starter motor. The two small wires are just the 12v coil inside that when energized with 12volts across them close the contacts between the two large terminals. Without being there with 'hands on' I just can't tell you for SURE what you need to do. Most of the push button starters on the top of the transmission housing just complete the ground circuit. I know this is confusing, but I don't want you to develop more problems for yourself.
Great video. My confusion is with the coil. Some12 volt coils have an internal resistor and some system you have to add a resistor. I'm confused on this. How do you tell the differance with the coils?
Actually the ones the are internally resisted don't actually have a 'resistor' in them. The additional resistance is created by the length of the windings. So a 12v will have a higher resistance than a 6v coil. I can never remember the actual readings without referencing my notes, but if you have one of each, you can easily see the difference with a cheap digital ohm meter.
@tractorman4461 I have a 1951 Ford 8n that has been converted to 12 volts. and I have another 1951 Ford 8n as a parts tractor. The running 8n has a resistor, and the coil ohms reading is 1.9, and the coil that came with the parts tractor is a reading of 3.0. I was reading that you get a stronger spark with the 6 volt coil with a resistor. Have you ever heard of this? Thanks for the reply.
@MrAlittle5150 Six volt systems gave a stronger spark because they were positive ground. It took more of a push to make the spark jump with that polarity. But putting a 6 V coil on a system that’s converted to 12 V will shorten the life of that coil. The external resistor that’s added to a 6 V coil helps extend the life. And in some cases, they don’t fail at all. so is your 12 V conversion a negative ground like normal modern 12 V systems? Or is it still positive ground.
@tractorman4461 I'm assuming negative ground. The battery is negatively grounded to the tractor. Another question : What's your opinion on electronic conversion kits for these tractors?
@MrAlittle5150 yes. It’s negative ground then. I would not convert a front mount to electronic ignition. But a side distributor I wouldn’t hesitate. But there are things to consider though. 1) you MUST always have a fully charged 12v battery. The ignition requires that. Remember that at only 12.2 volts a 12 volt battery is only at half capacity. Yeah, that’s right. The starter will drag to voltage down to 8 volts or lower at that point causing the electronic to not fire. 2) an instant of reverse polarity with jumpers or a charger while starting will kill the module. 3) it’s strongly suggested to change the plug wires and install the recommended flamethrower coil with the electronic module. The replacement wires will be automotive style wires to contain the much higher signal going to the plugs. The old wires will have a tendency to leak, draining the spark (so to speak).
Thanks for posting this video. I have a few older Same tractors here in Costa Rica that I often have electrical problems with because the mechanics here seem to like to leave the electrical system in shambles when putting everything back together again. I need to learn how this stuff works because my electrician can take forever to come out to the farm when I call him. I'm assuming the diagram is pretty much the same for a diesel engine just no coil or distributor.
What is the 2nd terminal on the alternator for? if it were meant to just be connected to the positive output I imagine it would just have an internal connection. Also if the tractor has lights what does the diagram look like for connecting those in this sort of system?
Thanks again for sharing this. A lot of the other videos I've watched were a lot harder to follow and understand.
How's things in Costa Rica Siggy ? Terminal #2 is responsible for monitoring the condition of the battery's charge, providing input to the alternator how much to increase or decrease its output to attain the desired charge in the battery. Without it connected, the output regulation is erratic as I understand. Terminal # 1 is the 'exciter' terminal that must have 12v dc applied to it in order for the alternator to begin creating its voltage output. Some guys wire it through a toggle switch, turn it on, get it to start charging then turn it off. But that's what the diode does for us automatically. Remember there is a minimum rpm the alternator must be turning in order for it to begin output in addition to having terminal #1 powered. That rpm varies. There are special 'low rpm exciters' in some alternators built specifically for the low rpm tractors.
With lights and other auxiliary loads, I would power a fuse block with a hot wire off of the key switch. Then wire in all the lights or other loads through switches from individual fuses then return the other side of the 'load' to a negative terminal block, grounding to the tractor frame. Wired off the key switch, the lights and loads cannot be turned on without the key in the on position, minimizing the potential for running the battery down if a light is left on. Make sense ?
@@tractorman4461 It does make sense. Thanks a lot.
Things are OK here in Costa Rica. The weather is great. The government could be better, but that's pretty much everywhere.
@@siggyincr7447 Hahahaha...you're right about that ! Good luck with your wiring project.
Sir are you familiar with gm's R terminal bypass wire?
Im in cinde of trobel me e core type ignition coil does not like that bypass wire aperantly me 4 pin gm ignition module is sensitive and I do have linear positive voltage regulator inside me dashboard so me fuse just pops when I try to use that wire .
So any ideas how to by pass that problem on a singel hei e core type ignition coil?
It has some thing to do with polarity I supose .
I really can offer nothing to help. All I know on the alternators is how to make them work for the old antique tractors because both the tractors and the alternators are simple. I don't get involved in the automotive side at all. But I can offer you good luck in finding a solution Elvin.
Great instructional video. However, you for to include the amp meter.
I don't use the ammeter at all on my old tractors David. With such a small load on them powering mostly only the ignition they usually barely move off the center but the voltmeter literally jumps from battery static voltage of 12.6 or so to 14.6 instantly when minimum rpm is attained and output begins. If your battery is weak and low on charge and needs a jump, then the ammeter will show pretty good until its brought up to full charge, then it'll go back to barely minimum. It would be beneficial on newer tractors with more electrical loads on board or powering electric sprayers or other external 12v equipment though, I agree.
You’ve done several videos on alternator conversions, could you do a tutorial on a 12 volt Meg ground system? I have an Oliver 770 I’m struggling with. Could you help?
Well, I'm not much on trouble shooting existing wiring....I usually gut all the old stuff and go back with new wire and connectors making sure all contact points are sanded and shiny. Is yours still a 12v generator? with regulator?....or alternator. What kind of issue are you having ?
That’s what I’ve done with this tractor,all new wiring what I’m struggling with is when I switched it to negative ground Im not sure I’m wiring the gen light correctly. I wasn’t necessarily asking you to diagnose a problem but more to explain how the system works and what it would require to reverse battery polarization.
Thank you for responding!
@@braddecker5588 Have you by chance re-polarized the generator to negative ground? The main components to be concerned with in changing grounds is the battery of course, the ignition coil and the generator. If you've not flashed the field coil of the generator to reverse its polarity it may be contributing to the generator light problem, don't know. Still, the 3 main things to be concerned with are the battery, coil, and the generator for reversing polarity. If its still a generator, does it have a cut out or standard voltage regulator? I'm still shooting in the dark though...I don't know for sure yet if you've done the alternator conversion or still running with the generator.
Yes I have.
I need to apologize,,, this is my first time chatting on this platform.
I don’t realize there was more to your response. I am still running a generator and the regulator is a 3 wire. It’s a 12 volt system. And I did repolarize it. I guess one thing I’m confused about is,,,,, the bulb acts an exciter is the wire off of the regulator going to the bulb hot or is it ground?,,,,, I see on several diagrams a wire going to the bulb off the ignition switch. I have seen a couple with the opposite side of the bulb grounded. I don’t want to wire it backwards and short something out.
What about the neutral safety switch seems it should have one?
When I used this diagram to install the conversion I realized that I had missed the switch. If you watch the video set in the playlist on the Ford 2000 you can see where I caught it. Here it is to make it easy for you to find: th-cam.com/play/PLk72G9DTzZ1uBYT70un1MnWxpiZ8f017c.html
Can any LED light be used? Is it something special?
Nothing special. Just off the shelf O'Reilly purchases. I like the small ones that pop into one of the small dash holes, sometimes I have to drill one with a unibit though. I do have one that is slightly too high of wattage because though it does charge perfectly, the diode continually flickers at a low idle. The lower the wattage (if you can find it on the pack) would be the best idea because it only needs to feed 12vdc to terminal #1 for a split second to initiate excitation. Once that happens, the higher output voltage of the alternator tries to feed backwards through the diode and stops the flow, turning the LED out.
A lot of guys wire a hot wire to a toggle switch on the dash, then on to the terminal #1. They start the tractor and once at rpm, flip the switch on and off immediately to excite the alternator. The diode does it automatically plus by turning off, lets you know the alternator is providing output. Other guys connect a short wire to terminal #3 and leave it hang loose. They start the tractor then bump #1 with the jumper to excite the alternator. That not my preference as I like the diode.
The redundancy though of adding a voltmeter to the circuit is great because you can see the 12.6 v static battery voltage change immediately to the higher 14.6 alternator output. Also as soon as the key is switched on you are now able to SEE where the battery voltage is before you try to start it. If it's even as low as 12v, it should be boosted momentarily for the start.
Thanks for the question. I hope the answer was satisfactory.
I bought a led light, it has a red and a black lead wire, which one goes to the switch or does it matter?
Hook it across the + and - terminals of the battery to see which way it lights up. That will help you determine which one is positive and which is negative. If you notice my diagram, the tractor is now negative ground so the positive side of the LED goes to the ignition switch, because it is getting power from the positive post. When the ignition switch closes, it then sends the 12v positive signal to the LED to light it up.
Once the alternator starts creating output at its required rpm, that voltage will be about 14.6 and will try to go backwards through the LED. Because a diode is a like an electrical check valve, the higher voltage cannot pass so the LED goes out. That tells you the alternator is putting out voltage. At the same time, you'll see the voltmeter jump from battery static voltage of 12.6 to 14.6 or 7. Hope that helps. Its worked for me on many tractors.
Occasionally I get an 'off the shelf' LED that flickers and doesn't go fully out. I just get a different wattage LED and change it. Sometimes the parts do not have a wattage on them and that causes the problem.
@@tractorman4461 Ok, thank you.
I ran 12 volt directly to the coil and it fried the wire, do you have electronic ignition? Shouldn't you run the coil wire to the solenoid?
If the wire fried, there has to have been a direct contact with ground. Yes, this one is converted to a 12v negative ground Petronix Electronic ignition system. Polarity is of the utmost importance with all electronic ignitions. I think there are many variations of wiring the tractors, but on this type of conversion the hot wire goes to the solenoid off of the starter button or the starters 'start' position to energize the solenoid. Hope that helps Gary. It can be confusing to adapt into a wiring circuit which is why I gut the whole thing and eliminate any possibility of wiring issues.
forgive my ignorance but I thought that with the 3 wire alternator I didn't have to excite the alternator but did on the one wire. Thanks
I think the one wire alternator is the one that needs no external excitation.. and I think its the 3 wire regulators that require it. That's what terminal 1 is...its the excitation terminal with terminal 2 being the feedback so the internal regulator knows to increase or decrease output. Make sense Jim ?
@@tractorman4461 Yes, thank you.
I'll be back later on this, but yes, right off, get rid of any and all things that have 'Lucas' on it.
I've come to believe in the old saying, or title of " Lucas, the Prince of darkness!'.
Side note: Who is this 'young fella' presenting this video, must be Wendell's "much younger brother" ( The hair cut!! , good change :) , yeah I jealous, 'cause you've got hair to cut, at least! Hahaha.
Hahahaha...reminds me of the time back in '75 when me and the Missus was dating. I showed up with my mustache shaved off and she would NOT get in my van !! She thought I was a younger brother playing a trick on her. True story. I had to pull out my drivers license before she would believe me. LOL. No I don't let her forget that at all....
Btw, check out Bret4207's comment about the Lucas products before you follow up with another reply...You'll like it I bet.
@@tractorman4461 Now there're a lot of 'lines' that I have never heard re. Lucas Electrics.
Good stuff!
@@regsparkes6507 With your previous comment, I KNEW you would like the list. I sure did. Hadn't heard most of them either. Some are tried and true though....
@@tractorman4461 Ohhh yes!
how do you wire the external regulator
The standard 12v external voltage regulator is usually simple. Usually the generator has an F and A terminal as well as does the VR. Connect Fto F and A to A. Then the B should go to the 12V batterys positive terminal. There could be variations of terminal designations from Ford to Case to JD etc. The 'thousand' series Fords all have Lucas electrics and its DEFINITELY different.
Generators are one of my many weak areas though, I gotta tell ya. If they don't work, I gut gut the wiring and go back with a Delco 3 wire or Delco 1 wire. Also I use Denso 1 wires as well.
What kind of led diode or size do you use
I just use whatever round one O'Reillys has on the wall. Chinese manufacturers don't seem to have the wattage on the package, but if you get one too big, the LED will usually just blink, but it will still provide the power to excite the alternator. I used to use Radio Shacks standard diode 1N4001 if I'm remembering correctly. They've been gone from this area for along time and I finally ran out of stock year ago. That's when I switched to the LED's for indication of output as well as excitation.
Can I use a regular bulb instead of an led?
The LED only allows power to flow one direction. So once higher output begins flowing backwards from the exciter terminal (1) the LED will turn off. I’m not sure a standard light would do that. IF the alternator doesn’t reach the minimum rpm to initiate output the LED will not extinguish. Revving the motor usually gets the higher output started from the alternator. Some excite instantly. Others have varying minimum rpm’s to attain output. The standard bulb would probably initiate the circuit but I’m not sure it would shut off until the key is switched off. I’ve not tried it.
@Tractorman44 well, I changed everything over to 12v , replaced the coil, coil wire, ALL the wiring to the new alternator, new ignition switch, coil, condenser, and still zero spark. Cleaned the points, rotor, and cap but still no spark. I'm frustrated.
@@michalhowling3702 First, what Ford is it? I'm not a great 8 or 9n guy at all. But a systematic approach to find the lost voltage is what I do all the time. If its negative ground, start with the voltmeter on the negative terminal and follow the flow of electric...first from the positive post to the ignition switch, then through the switch to the next, to the next etc etc, until you lose voltage. Its usually a simple issue.
I'm getting voltage at the coil, positive side, I get voltage from the negative side if I switch to the negative side of the battery. And getting voltage on both sides of the points with the lead on the negative side of the battery. I believe that's my issue. The one side of the points are not isolated from the system for some reason.
@@michalhowling3702 When I have a problem like yours, I start from the beginning and draw a diagram of what is there. Then look for just WHAT could be the area giving the problem. With the points open, voltage should only be on the incoming side of the points and not on the other contact, because it is not touching. If the points are closed, then of course there will be the same voltage across. The spark at the points is created by the rotating lobe opening the contacts. If you have the same voltage on both sides of open contacts, that is the starting point to go from. You still haven't told me what Ford you are working on.
my massey ferguson ignition switch only has an off and on
The 'momentary' terminal of the switch in the drawing only provides temporary power to the solenoid during the starting process. The wire to the #1 terminal feeds off the 'on' terminal to provide 12v input through the LED to get it to begin the voltage output. Once it begins producing the higher voltage, the LED should go out. Does that help ?
Looking for a Wiring for century 2800
I really have no input for you as I mostly do this stuff on old tractors. Good Luck with your search.
the English like warm beer because they have lucas refrigerators...Yah bless...doug
Hahahaha....good one !! Yeah, I do NOT enjoy the Lucas systems. The main reason is the expense of OEM replacements. This way, it's ALL universal and available at any auto parts store.
Hi, so what happend if the led light goes out
LED’s only allow electricity to flow in one direction. It comes on when the key is turned on because it’s now getting voltage from the battery. The battery’s voltage is lower than the alternator output so when the alternator begins producing voltage the higher voltage tries to overpower the lower voltage and it cannot flow backwards so the LED goes out. To get the alternator to begin charging it needs to be tickled at terminal #1. That’s what the LED does. The LED turning off after the tractor starts indicates that the alternator is now providing output voltage higher than the static voltage of the battery. Depending on the ‘excitement’ rpm of your particular Delco you may have to rev up the motor at first to spin it fast enough to begin providing output. Hope that helps Fernando.
@@tractorman4461 thank you so much for the advice, nice video good job. !!!
@@fernandovazquez7542 You are welcome and Good luck my friend with your project.
Is that a 4 pole solenoid
This particular one is. The basic difference is one is grounded through its base and the other needs a physical ground connection.
@@tractorman4461 the 4 pole needs to be grounded or the 3pole
Reason I'm asking I'm restoring a 68 ford 2000 3 cylinder that has an alternator upgrade and the wires are like tangled up fishing line I got it running but only runs while I hold the key to start
@@mikeprice1816 Usually the three pole had the two large terminals that is the switch. Then the 12v signal from the starter button or key switch energizes the one small pole, with the mounting base of the solenoid providing the ground. The 4 pole gets the 12v signal on one small terminal and the other pole goes to battery ground.
@@mikeprice1816 If its dying as soon as you release the key from the start position, it usually means the hot wire to the ignition coil is powered off the wrong terminal of the key switch. The 'momentary' terminal of the key switch will go to the solenoid and the coil is powered from the terminal that stays 'hot' in the run position of the key switch. Make sense..? There are variations and I don't know exactly what it is you have there but this is what I start with while troubleshooting.
I can’t watch this with that annoying horn sound every time to write or draw.
You have good ears. That's the software sound from speeding the video up to keep them as short as possible. I don't even notice it because I can't even hear it. But I found its much better for most of the viewers because leaving in all the dead air space while drawing on the diagram or while laying out sheet metal will cause many more viewers to lose interest and leave.
Do not bypass the stater safety switch on ford tractor
They will run you over or your kids
Yes, as soon as I realized I'd forgotten it in the diagram, I drew it in and added it to the circuit first thing.