@@dylanza Fair comment but I would counter with : 62 is no time to grow up at all, its the time to enjoy and laugh and live each day. If you are here already I am a little sad for you, if not here yet then I hope you are making the most of your youth. My best regards.
Do more tests with old and/or high milage EVs. I think many people would be interested longevity of the EVs. Drive the Taxis yourself or give them the tester thingy.
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 Yes, I'm even happy to make the test on my 30kWh Leaf exactly as Bjorn does it, for him to put it in that table. The more data the more accurate
Just give an AVILOO degradation test device to the taxi company, let them run the test and collect the device two days later again. They will be happy because they have information about the degradation, you are happy because you have more data on your hands with not too much work, and we are happy because we can watch more degredation videos. Win-Win-Win :D
Temperature of the battery also affects the available energy capacity of the battery, if he did the test in summer he would maybe get around 5% degradation.
Very interesting! EQC is an underappreciated car. What would also be interesting is degredation per kilometre driven. From an engineering standpoint it's cool to see it per cycle, but as a customer, all you're usually really interested in is the effect of kilometres, IMO.
They're very expensive compared to the new Q8 E-tron for example. The Mercedes suspension is exeptionally comfortable but apart from that I can't see many reasons to get the Mercedes.
@@MrSandChess when I first bought the car (January 2021) there was a battery issue that required fixing at my dealership, but tbh honest that’s not the reason why I don’t think it’s worth it. My wife and I also have Volvo xc90 T8 hybrid since end of 2020, which is better in every way and basically the same price. The most underwhelming aspects of the EQC are the lack of practicality , less than zero off road capability (car bottoms out over minor speed humps, didn’t happen on my BMW 530e which I owned immediately previously to the EQC), and the interior design/ feel/ quality which is for all intents and purposes, lifted straight out of a 2020 c class. Very disappointing! 😩
Thanks Bjørn for measuring battery degradation for many different cars and making the data available to everyone. However, I don't understand the degradation/cycle. It appears to be higher for a single cycle than for the entire life of the battery over several hundred cycles.
Great content! Thank you for collecting all the data and sharing it with the community. Just a side note as an 2018Ioniq driver with 198k km behind me the degradation really shows the most in the lower % where the "guestemate" becomes more hectic. Imo the real degradation is exactly in these last 20~25% where the charge just vaporize in thin air.
It held up well because all this mileage was done in just 2 years. Once this car turns 6-7+ years old, then i want to see how degrated the batteries are. If i were to buy an expensive EV (i'm not against them, they are just SO expensive) then i would want one for atleast 10 years (or more).
This right here. Mileage alone is not enough to represent battery degradation. I want to see these cars and batteries after several years of wear and tear on them to see just how great they are. Sure the car has done over 140k miles but it’s still brand new practically.
I would not be so confident on degradation over the years, Mercedes and other EV offer 8 + year warranty on the battery holding between 70-80% capacity. Do you get those insurances with combustion engine?
Would be interesting to see how the degradation progressed after another 50k-100k. Typically once some cells start to degrade the progression is exponential. So this 200k = 8% degradation might mean that at 250k can be 30% Otherwise thanks for the effort!
@@moestrei Did kevin maybe mean that 230,000 kms isnät high milage. Like a lot of people would consider 300,000 km minimum as high milage. Like cabs go 500,000 + normally....
Very useful, informative video. Towards the end I saw very high degradation per cycle for Leaf and Kia Soul models but they were very old so perhaps this suggests lost capacity due to age and not just cycles. Would like to see Renault Zoe numbers especially the re40 model that is supposed to have a 50kwh pack that is software limited to use 40kwh.
Coming up to 4 years with the Kia e-Niro, 73,000 km and no discernible loss of range. My MO for charging is to 80% once a week or when we get in the 25% - 30% range unless I am doing a long journey or a remember to do what the manual says and take it to 100% once a month. Have only ever had the car below 10% once. They say that an NMC pouch cell battery like mine will be done in 1,000 cycles but the data suggests that partial charging brings that up to 2,000 to 3,000 cycles before the owner will notice a drop in range. So far this year my average added % on each plugin is 32%....so about 20 kWh of the 64 KWh battery. Sorry, but I’m a bit of a stats nerd. Given my winter/summer average efficiency of 14.5 kWh/100 km that’s 138 km of range added every time I plug in. So doing that 2,500 times gives me 342,500 km...before the car gets below 80% of its original range. At my age, doing an average of 20,000 km a year I am not too worried.
@@bjornnyland Yep, I guess it does. The real battery size is 67.5 kWh with the ‘spare’ 3.5 kWh achieved by never letting the cells get to max voltage on the up and 0v and the down. I have always wondered how the BMS does that...does it detect a weak cell, disable it from the pack and increase the voltage slightly on the other cells to compensate? There are I think 98 cells in the e-Niro 64 kWh.
Very interesting! We are looking into getting rid of our Volvo XC60 D5 and get an electric XC40 but we are worried about the longevity of electric cars so we are still holding off.
Hi Bjørn it would be very interesting when you do degradation tests in various cars also have a reliability overview. Things broken How often price of repairs Service cost etc We all know that some cars and companies you pay the "real" price after you buy it So the Question should be, I can afford to buy it, but can I afford to maintain it?
F.e I have 2011 nissan leaf 100.000km 9 out of 12 bars degradation Damages: Front bushings once recently 10000nok 1. 12v battery 850kr 1 window motor 2500kr change it my shelf Service 2500 kr yearly I would say very reliable for 11 year old car category: pigybag 🤙
I have the same MG ZS you had, bought it in 2021 and it has 44000km already. First year it charged at 7kwh (32 amp single phase) charger and now (Due to moving and not having that charger) I use the granny charger that does maybe 2kwh. The car doesn't give me any information at all, but I can share with you my most recent trip to work Morning temp was ~10c I started the day with 88% reported soc drove 89.6 km to office. Afternoon was ~22c drove 88.4km back home. Total distance: 178 km end of trip soc was 27% Assuming total usable capacity of 42kwh, I used 25.62kwh which gave me an economy figure of 14.4 kwh/100km That is the best case scenario, because ~60% was in traffic moving slowly and the rest was at 90km/h (speedometer reading)
@Atak Snajpera a kw is a unit of power and kwh is a unit of energy no? Like my motor max output is 105 kw of power While my battery holds 44.5 kwh of energy Is there something I wrote wrong?
How the heck has someone already put that many miles on one of those. We are only just starting to get the EQS SUVs over here in America and no one has even bought one.
It aligns with the observation that European cars of last 10 years or so, no matter the powertrain, withstand driven distance much better than actual age. I mean: drive it a lot over shorter period of time, the car is fine, looks good and all. Drive it little and try to keep it over longer period of time and these modern buckets of plastic start failing and falling apart despite the low mileage
What happens when your battery degraded too much for your needs? Do you recycle the whole car so the "bad" battery can be used for stationary purposes? Or do you replace the battery for a lot of money? Given it's out of warranty. I don't understand how this is more gentle to the environment than an ICE. You don't replace the engine every 100.000 - 200.000 km and even if you would, it's not as dirty to produce than a battery. Apart from the exhaust pollution, I really can't see the disadvantage of ICE. Can someone enlighten me please?
Just for some perspective in Dubai they run Lexus hybrids with 2 drivers, 12hrs on 12 off. After 4 years they’ll accumulate over 1million kilometres, from here they will continue running for another 1-2 years before being exported to Saudi Arabia where they’ll continue running presumably since people actually buy them The mileage is unknown after this as the Speedo doesn’t go above 999999
234,000 km is what an average European drives in 17-20 years (depending on the country). So if you're not a taxi/uber driver you will be fine for the entire life of this car.
The 230k km degradation test does not predict de behaviour of the battery in the next 5 years, as the car is fairly new. The degradation may be perfectly ok for 5 years and then plumets abrupty in several weeks since thiis is standard hehavoiur for Li ion battery
Thanks again for an interesting video, but I'd like to make two comments. Less than quarter million km and "high mileage" do not rhyme on Mercedes. And did you really check the trip computer error? The speedo is of course as inaccurate as in any other car (for no valid reason), but the trip computer on an already 10 year old Merc does not read the speedo but the sensor readings on CAN-bus that are much more accurate. So the 115 km/h average probably means cruise control setting 120 on the speedometer?
This taxi was driven slowly, with gentle accelerations, in very cold climate, never charged or discharged rapidly which is, in summary, the best case scenario for battery longevity.
@@bjornnyland LOL! Good day to you too Bjorn! Since you established the context of battery degradation, i must agree with you that 110 is a very high speed if you go up the steep mountain with 6 people and a dog onboard!
@@logitech4873 Agree! There are great movies to collaborate especially Taxi 1 and Taxi 2! ....there is depending on a customer. If they judge the situation that puking might happen, they will be gentile!
Well, both the total mileage and the number of cycles are important parameters, along with typical operating temperature (Norway vs. Thailand is a great comparison), typical speed (relevant to power output, or the C-rate that Bjørn mentioned) and typical charging rate (slow vs rapid). The table shows several of these.
Per km is also useless since cars with large batteries will seem to have less degradation than cars with small batteries. That's why I calculated that variable for the degradation test to make more sense. Otherwise Tesla would be on top.
Nice video. What is the Degr/cycle ? How did you calculated that? also do you still have contact with the EQC taxi? did he always charge to 100% and broght it down to 20%?
Interesting. I wonder how age will affect that car as the miles build. The interior looks great, the battery is still very much usable and it seems like it has a lot of life left in it. I would like to see follow up reports on this car and others like it in high use scenarios. With ice cars I would always buy a higher mileage car over one which has spent time sitting around because that seems to do more harm than miles - presuming its been looked after. I wonder if ev's will see a similar trend?
Can someone please explain what does Byorn mean about "discharge at 5%"? Does it mean, how much was the battery discharged, before next charging started?
Great test - #1 question owners have is Cycles vs HPC (kwh added) vs vehicle milage ... looks like the low HPC helped minimize the degradation on this car - So if you are looking for a good deal on a used premium EV get a EQ with high milage & low HPC... (or just buy a Tesla ;0)
Yep, and still fouling up the air, needing an oil change every 15 to 20 k..brakes every 60k in taxi use....Taxi drivers are cottoning on to the fact that EVs will clock up more km reliably than any diesel or petrol taxi...no ICE can match durability of an electric motor.
I’m not sure what the objection here is ? If you want run a diesel or petrol car please do so…. Why is it a requirement of some people to one up their choice on TH-cam ? If you are happy with your choice of car and fuel good for you, keep it. No one asked anyone to watch this. This is not some award winning competition for the best One Upper and Fuel flex.
I don't understand Column J on your Degradation sheet of the spread sheet "degradation/cycle" what numbers do you use for that calculation? Looks like it might be degradation/1000 cycles? but I thought the degradation at the beginning 200 cycles or so is much worse than degradation following that... ie. cycle #200-400 will show less degradation than the 1st 200 cycles; so cars with low cycle counts would potentially be more penalized then cars with many cycles.....
Very good result and the overall efficiency per available kWh, hasn’t changed much from new. Ok, it’s lost some potential range but not much. ICEd vehicles are less efficient with age but no one seems bothered about that and it’s never mentioned. Seems to prove, that with the right BMS and good battery charging, there may be less worries about if the battery pack will last the rest of the vehicle’s life.
ICE vehicles aren't really less efficient over the years. We have a 18 hear old Mercedes C220 diesel with 320,000kms. The consumption is still the same over the same trip.
I can really still get 1200 km on my 15yo and 360k km Alfa 159, and it's faster than factory spec (chipped) so it really comes down to regular maintenance which is 60 euro in 1 year if you do it yourself.
Hi. I can't see the formula for the degradation/cycles on the Tests File, but i think the logic behind it is flawed. For that result to have meaning, degradation would have to be linear and we know it is not, most of the degradation happens in the first cycles and after those it drops in a more linear matter if nothing abnormal happens. So a car with 200 cycles and 4% degradation is not worse than a car with 600 cycles and 7% degradation, that is because both could have had those 4% drop in 200 cycles and the other 400 cycles just add 3% of degradation. And by you calculation it looks like the those two cars would have different results but you can't be sure the first car is worse because the car still didn't do those other additional 400 cycles. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Think about this nugget: with an EV, the moment you disconnect your car that is 100%, the efficiency of your vehicle drops as you drive. If your battery 🔋 weighs 800kg, at 50% you're hauling 400kg of dead weight. Imagine your battery reaches 50% charge it is like you gradually picked up 5 grownups for the drive.
Accuracy of degradation test in cold weather? I did a similar degradationtest with my Ioniq, 28 kW, from 2019, with 32000km. The car was changed to 100% in my cold garage ( ca 1° C). The charing stoped three ours before the test started. The I drove i on highway in constant speed at 90 km/h down to 2%. Outside temperature was -3°. The consumption was 13,3 kWh/100 km and the range was 175 km. That makes a total energy consumption of 23,275 kWh (=98%). 100 % = 23,75 kWh. If I assume that the battery hold 28 kWh at the start ( when the car was new) that makes a degradation of 15%. Is the assumption correct or does the battery hold less in cold weather? PS. Your videos are great!
I did a 80 - 15 % yesterday. 271 km at 17.4 kw/100 km (it was downhill). 72.5 kw battery left 😢 the car only has 30.000 kms, mostly charged at home with 11 kw to 60%. Does the idle consumption with just pre-climate count in the consumption?
7:30 whoa whoa sir, you do know that the first 10% of lithium battery degrades relatively quick compared to whats going to happen afterwards, right? So looking at the model 3 with 6% degraded in 60k km, well, it's the soft "spongy" area and you will see GREATLY reduced rate if you follow up in the next 150k km on that car.
I always load to 100% at my home-device, that loads really slow (11 Kwh). Given the low loading speed, does it matter that I load to 100% in terms of degradation? Thanks, Björn, for your test-reports; they are nice and very informative…..!
@@Sebastien824 No. It is scientifically proven that degradation is related to state of charge. If you charge to [100%] 4.2V (per cell voltage) then after 500 cycles you get 70% of original capacity. [90%] 4.1V -> 70% after 1000 cycles. [80%] 4.0V -> 70% after 1500 cycles.
I was like I haven't seen the rest of the world adopt EVs as taxis thats odd but then I saw the UI and it was in Finnish 😂😂 no wonder. the EV adoption rate in the taxi industry here over the past 2 years has been mindbogglingly fast.
Can you even drive to Helsinki-Vantaa Airport with normal diesel taxis anymore? I know bigger taxi fleets have now dozens of EVs and those are replacing the C- and E-class vehicles.
EQC can only charge at 7.4kW on AC so it must be that the taxi company has other EVs in their fleet that can take the higher AC charge rate to justify such a high power AC portable charger. Charging on 7.4kW in a car that has to earn its living is dog slow and means a lot of down time just to charge it.
Haha :)) if you think that 234000km is a high millage in a car, especially a Mercedes, than what would you say about vehicles which have over 500.000km !?
Björn: call for German salesmen (Vertreter) who uses mostly Ionity or other fast chargers to get more informations about that. I know there are a lot using the model S, fat etron and EQS
I charge at 100 and routinely drop it under 5%. Nobody will take EVs seriously if people need to charge it within certain parameters ( 5%-80%) nonsense.
No. The first cycles will cause more degradation and after those it starts to slow down to a more steady rate of degradation. That happens because the chemicals inside the battery are still "green" at those first cycles and as they "mature" they become more stable and settled in, that makes the rate of degradation to slow down after those initial cycles.
Degradation is a bad thing. And it is bad because you start with so little, that any amount is drastic. First you get like around 20% less then what is stated on the label. And to be fare this is exactly the amount (20%) with all the ICE engines and their consumption. But their fuel capacity is big and filling speed combined with filling stations availability makes those 20% more fuel consumptions just irrelevant. Also I just looked at the speed tests. The difference between 90 and 120 km/h is like mind blowing. Between 20% and 30% less efficient with 120km/h. With ICE cars most of the time this difference is between 0% - 10%. 20% is max for passenger cars, but there are some cases when cars are more fuel efficient around 120 then 90. May be pickups or Vans will reach 30%, may be. Unfortunately those 30km/h are more than 30% increase in speed and depending on how far is your destination it might mean a lot of time spend on the road. Lets say 200km, with 90km/h this will take ~135minutes. With 120km/h it will take ~ 100minutes. 35 minute difference for 200km is a lot. Here where max speed is 140km/h on the highway you can get 400km with only 3hour drive without stopping for a brake. And this is the main route for summer weekend vacations. I do not see that happening with any EV on your table. You either slow down and stop for a brake or you keep up with 140km/h and stop for a charge. Both will take the same time, one of them will be more expensive and if you find a spare or a working fast charger. And this is why I do not think that Pure EV's are the answer. An enormous vehicle with so much resources in, big battery, big everything and it gets just around 300km of range with 120km/h speed. And even that is not enough, anything less is just waste of time. I do not see the point of that. What are you saving. Make a plug-in with 1/3 of that battery, with around 80-100 city driving real world range around 120-150hp electric motor suitable for everyday driving. Then leave the rest to a small ICE engine with the same power and 35l fuel tank.
Not random at all. He had a "powered by kempower" sticker. Like his previous visit to kempower where they showcased a taxi using a personnal kempower 40kW charger. He must be in the same use case, and have a close relationship with kempower, whom must use his services to move around their guests.
If you watched part 1, I talked to the taxi driver and it turns out that Kempower chose this taxi driver specifically. They are also friends since the taxi driver bought the T series from Kempower. Kempower uses this taxi often for their customers. In an earlier visit in February 2022, you can see the same taxi shuttling Kempower customers: th-cam.com/video/pTYqLNQ4RW4/w-d-xo.html
How do you define a degradation cycle? is charging from 30%->80% a half degradation cycle? I don't know what data you can pull out of an EV, but would it be possible to do some calculation of "total kW charged / battery capacity" for a more uniform result?
Considering it is 50% and not near the maximums - it is safe to say it is probably less than 50% of a cycle. If you would charge near the beggining or end of SoC - it could constitute a full cycle with less than 100% charged.
@@Ankerstjerne1982 That is exactly as Bjørn explained in this video: it's the best statistical approximation - odo total kms/measured km range of available kWh = no of cycles
@@bjornnyland the bms is never wrong. And has never been wrong by +-1%. But I also used to drive long distance without supercharger access as i live remote. so yeah, that is very accurate.
@@bjornnyland There is some correlation, but it depends on how one charges. You can charge from 30-80%, or 5% to 100%, big difference. Or you can keep plugged in at 100% for months without discharging in summer heat - also very bad for battery. In the latter case, there may not be many charging cycles, but the battery will still degrade faster, than a car with many many 30-80% charge cycles.
Well ok so EV has a worst waste because we need to change the battery so it's not green at all, I believe we need gasoline that can be produced by plant
![[TH] JFT vs RLF - VCT Ascension Pacific - Day 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PuIH7w_jO6c/mqdefault.jpg)
As a 62 year old I have never done this .. FIRST!! Hahahahahaha
Big Boomer momento
All hail King Adam 👑
@@sk.43821 cmon i was kidding i have to write this comment cmon grow up
@@dylanza Fair comment but I would counter with : 62 is no time to grow up at all, its the time to enjoy and laugh and live each day. If you are here already I am a little sad for you, if not here yet then I hope you are making the most of your youth. My best regards.
:D
Do more tests with old and/or high milage EVs. I think many people would be interested longevity of the EVs. Drive the Taxis yourself or give them the tester thingy.
There’s a 2012 Nissan Leaf in the list. Did you see it?
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 Yes,
I'm even happy to make the test on my 30kWh Leaf exactly as Bjorn does it, for him to put it in that table.
The more data the more accurate
Just give an AVILOO degradation test device to the taxi company, let them run the test and collect the device two days later again. They will be happy because they have information about the degradation, you are happy because you have more data on your hands with not too much work, and we are happy because we can watch more degredation videos. Win-Win-Win :D
Hope this ECQ has been a good financial decision for the driver. Taxi is a great use case for ev.
I still think that the EQC is one of the best looking EVs out there!
Best looking ev is Rimac Nevera🥰
@@maxmustermann4400 At least most of us can by a EQC
Temperature of the battery also affects the available energy capacity of the battery, if he did the test in summer he would maybe get around 5% degradation.
Very interesting! EQC is an underappreciated car. What would also be interesting is degredation per kilometre driven. From an engineering standpoint it's cool to see it per cycle, but as a customer, all you're usually really interested in is the effect of kilometres, IMO.
They're very expensive compared to the new Q8 E-tron for example. The Mercedes suspension is exeptionally comfortable but apart from that I can't see many reasons to get the Mercedes.
I have an EQC400 and trust me, it’s not worth the money
@@adomnarkwa Had any major issues yet?
@@MrSandChess when I first bought the car (January 2021) there was a battery issue that required fixing at my dealership, but tbh honest that’s not the reason why I don’t think it’s worth it. My wife and I also have Volvo xc90 T8 hybrid since end of 2020, which is better in every way and basically the same price. The most underwhelming aspects of the EQC are the lack of practicality , less than zero off road capability (car bottoms out over minor speed humps, didn’t happen on my BMW 530e which I owned immediately previously to the EQC), and the interior design/ feel/ quality which is for all intents and purposes, lifted straight out of a 2020 c class. Very disappointing! 😩
@@adomnarkwa why would you expect anything more than a 2020 c class interior in a 2021 eqc?
Thanks Bjørn for measuring battery degradation for many different cars and making the data available to everyone. However, I don't understand the degradation/cycle. It appears to be higher for a single cycle than for the entire life of the battery over several hundred cycles.
That is a better result than I expected, but I am very happy about that.
Great content! Thank you for collecting all the data and sharing it with the community. Just a side note as an 2018Ioniq driver with 198k km behind me the degradation really shows the most in the lower % where the "guestemate" becomes more hectic. Imo the real degradation is exactly in these last 20~25% where the charge just vaporize in thin air.
It held up well because all this mileage was done in just 2 years.
Once this car turns 6-7+ years old, then i want to see how degrated the batteries are.
If i were to buy an expensive EV (i'm not against them, they are just SO expensive) then i would want one for atleast 10 years (or more).
This right here. Mileage alone is not enough to represent battery degradation. I want to see these cars and batteries after several years of wear and tear on them to see just how great they are. Sure the car has done over 140k miles but it’s still brand new practically.
I would not be so confident on degradation over the years, Mercedes and other EV offer 8 + year warranty on the battery holding between 70-80% capacity. Do you get those insurances with combustion engine?
@@PedroDuarte-hj8hp
just did a strip down of a 33 year old Mazda petrol ICE after 335,000 km's; no discernible wear.
Would be interesting to see how the degradation progressed after another 50k-100k.
Typically once some cells start to degrade the progression is exponential.
So this 200k = 8% degradation might mean that at 250k can be 30%
Otherwise thanks for the effort!
Battery degradation is actually logarithmic. It slows down in time.
Love it Bjorn when you say its done over 230,000 kms and then say that's high mileage.
Thats how you word it in English.
@@moestrei Did kevin maybe mean that 230,000 kms isnät high milage. Like a lot of people would consider 300,000 km minimum as high milage. Like cabs go 500,000 + normally....
Love it Kevin you are so fucking dumb 🤡
Very useful, informative video. Towards the end I saw very high degradation per cycle for Leaf and Kia Soul models but they were very old so perhaps this suggests lost capacity due to age and not just cycles. Would like to see Renault Zoe numbers especially the re40 model that is supposed to have a 50kwh pack that is software limited to use 40kwh.
The Nissan Leaf was just very horrible in terms of battery degradation. Especially the Leaf I.
Coming up to 4 years with the Kia e-Niro, 73,000 km and no discernible loss of range. My MO for charging is to 80% once a week or when we get in the 25% - 30% range unless I am doing a long journey or a remember to do what the manual says and take it to 100% once a month. Have only ever had the car below 10% once. They say that an NMC pouch cell battery like mine will be done in 1,000 cycles but the data suggests that partial charging brings that up to 2,000 to 3,000 cycles before the owner will notice a drop in range. So far this year my average added % on each plugin is 32%....so about 20 kWh of the 64 KWh battery. Sorry, but I’m a bit of a stats nerd. Given my winter/summer average efficiency of 14.5 kWh/100 km that’s 138 km of range added every time I plug in. So doing that 2,500 times gives me 342,500 km...before the car gets below 80% of its original range. At my age, doing an average of 20,000 km a year I am not too worried.
Your battery has degraded for sure. But the car hides the degradation.
@@bjornnyland Yep, I guess it does. The real battery size is 67.5 kWh with the ‘spare’ 3.5 kWh achieved by never letting the cells get to max voltage on the up and 0v and the down. I have always wondered how the BMS does that...does it detect a weak cell, disable it from the pack and increase the voltage slightly on the other cells to compensate? There are I think 98 cells in the e-Niro 64 kWh.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 You cant use the 67 kWh so why call it real when it's just the nominal capacity? ICE mindset must dwell in you a little.
Very interesting! We are looking into getting rid of our Volvo XC60 D5 and get an electric XC40 but we are worried about the longevity of electric cars so we are still holding off.
Hi Bjørn it would be very interesting when you do degradation tests in various cars also have a reliability overview.
Things broken
How often
price of repairs
Service cost etc
We all know that some cars and companies you pay the "real" price after you buy it
So the Question should be, I can afford to buy it, but can I afford to maintain it?
F.e I have 2011 nissan leaf
100.000km
9 out of 12 bars degradation
Damages:
Front bushings once recently 10000nok
1. 12v battery 850kr
1 window motor 2500kr change it my shelf
Service 2500 kr yearly
I would say very reliable for 11 year old car
category: pigybag 🤙
Good point. One way of measuring "how often things are broken" is number of days the car is in the garage/dealership in year 1, year 2 etc
@@dimitrisraptis1985 100km is hardly a test of reliability 🙄
11 years is not thought both time and usage is affecting a car
@@ln5747 he can do it then prediect how rest of lifetime would be based on that couple hundred km
I have the same MG ZS you had, bought it in 2021 and it has 44000km already.
First year it charged at 7kwh (32 amp single phase) charger and now (Due to moving and not having that charger) I use the granny charger that does maybe 2kwh.
The car doesn't give me any information at all, but I can share with you my most recent trip to work
Morning temp was ~10c
I started the day with 88% reported soc
drove 89.6 km to office.
Afternoon was ~22c
drove 88.4km back home.
Total distance: 178 km
end of trip soc was 27%
Assuming total usable capacity of 42kwh, I used 25.62kwh which gave me an economy figure of 14.4 kwh/100km
That is the best case scenario, because ~60% was in traffic moving slowly and the rest was at 90km/h (speedometer reading)
Do you understand difference between kW and kWh?
@Atak Snajpera a kw is a unit of power and kwh is a unit of energy no? Like my motor max output is 105 kw of power
While my battery holds 44.5 kwh of energy
Is there something I wrote wrong?
@@dgurevich1 "First year it charged at (( *7kwh* ))"
I love those ev tests. Get a 3sec to 100kph car and talk about range that it can get at 90kph
How the heck has someone already put that many miles on one of those. We are only just starting to get the EQS SUVs over here in America and no one has even bought one.
Shit i saw awhile ago someone put 200k miles on a 2021 honda civic lol
I don't even know how that's possible you'd have to basically live in your car
so many words with no end in sight. what's the conclusion? OMG
Very good work with spreadsheet and factual numbers. We need more actuall statictics on EV's over all the fluff which surronds the industry.
Thanks Björn, exactly these things are tested far too rarely.
I'm also positively surprised by the result of the Mercedes.
It aligns with the observation that European cars of last 10 years or so, no matter the powertrain, withstand driven distance much better than actual age.
I mean: drive it a lot over shorter period of time, the car is fine, looks good and all. Drive it little and try to keep it over longer period of time and these modern buckets of plastic start failing and falling apart despite the low mileage
What I think could be interesting to see a charging curve/speed degradation. E.g. can a Model 3 with high recharge cycle still charge at 250kw peak?
Yes it can.
What happens when your battery degraded too much for your needs? Do you recycle the whole car so the "bad" battery can be used for stationary purposes? Or do you replace the battery for a lot of money? Given it's out of warranty. I don't understand how this is more gentle to the environment than an ICE. You don't replace the engine every 100.000 - 200.000 km and even if you would, it's not as dirty to produce than a battery. Apart from the exhaust pollution, I really can't see the disadvantage of ICE. Can someone enlighten me please?
Just for some perspective in Dubai they run Lexus hybrids with 2 drivers, 12hrs on 12 off.
After 4 years they’ll accumulate over 1million kilometres, from here they will continue running for another 1-2 years before being exported to Saudi Arabia where they’ll continue running presumably since people actually buy them
The mileage is unknown after this as the Speedo doesn’t go above 999999
While owning an EV car, the owner becomes more an analysist engineer then a driver. 🤣
would enjoy a renew M3 Performance refresh MiC test, with the newer 82kWh battery. They lose significantly in the first 10k km.
234,000 km is what an average European drives in 17-20 years (depending on the country).
So if you're not a taxi/uber driver you will be fine for the entire life of this car.
Great info , can u add Audi Etron. Muat bbw same frame , battery as Vw
Time for a Polestar 2 degradation test video! :D
We have an old Toyota at 400000km on it over 21 years. How did they do 234000km in two years?!?!
The 230k km degradation test does not predict de behaviour of the battery in the next 5 years, as the car is fairly new. The degradation may be perfectly ok for 5 years and then plumets abrupty in several weeks since thiis is standard hehavoiur for Li ion battery
Thanks again for an interesting video, but I'd like to make two comments. Less than quarter million km and "high mileage" do not rhyme on Mercedes. And did you really check the trip computer error? The speedo is of course as inaccurate as in any other car (for no valid reason), but the trip computer on an already 10 year old Merc does not read the speedo but the sensor readings on CAN-bus that are much more accurate. So the 115 km/h average probably means cruise control setting 120 on the speedometer?
This taxi was driven slowly, with gentle accelerations, in very cold climate, never charged or discharged rapidly which is, in summary, the best case scenario for battery longevity.
I wouldn't say 110 km/h is slow.
@@bjornnyland LOL! Good day to you too Bjorn! Since you established the context of battery degradation, i must agree with you that 110 is a very high speed if you go up the steep mountain with 6 people and a dog onboard!
@@logitech4873 Agree! There are great movies to collaborate especially Taxi 1 and Taxi 2! ....there is depending on a customer. If they judge the situation that puking might happen, they will be gentile!
Hey Bjørn. I have an ID.3 with 55.000 km driven, you can test it if you want. I live near Copenhagen.
Degradation per cycle is pretty useless, the real word useful statistics is the degradation per kilometres
Well, both the total mileage and the number of cycles are important parameters, along with typical operating temperature (Norway vs. Thailand is a great comparison), typical speed (relevant to power output, or the C-rate that Bjørn mentioned) and typical charging rate (slow vs rapid). The table shows several of these.
Per km is also useless since cars with large batteries will seem to have less degradation than cars with small batteries. That's why I calculated that variable for the degradation test to make more sense. Otherwise Tesla would be on top.
I think there is an error at column J. The numbers should be divided by 100
Great info !
Nice video. What is the Degr/cycle ? How did you calculated that? also do you still have contact with the EQC taxi? did he always charge to 100% and broght it down to 20%?
Interesting. I wonder how age will affect that car as the miles build. The interior looks great, the battery is still very much usable and it seems like it has a lot of life left in it.
I would like to see follow up reports on this car and others like it in high use scenarios.
With ice cars I would always buy a higher mileage car over one which has spent time sitting around because that seems to do more harm than miles - presuming its been looked after. I wonder if ev's will see a similar trend?
Can someone please explain what does Byorn mean about "discharge at 5%"? Does it mean, how much was the battery discharged, before next charging started?
Great test - #1 question owners have is Cycles vs HPC (kwh added) vs vehicle milage ... looks like the low HPC helped minimize the degradation on this car - So if you are looking for a good deal on a used premium EV get a EQ with high milage & low HPC... (or just buy a Tesla ;0)
My friends 2018 Tesla has way more degradation than this eqc
Out of interest, is a cycle both charging from say 0% to 100% and also, say, 20% to 40%? What is a cycle?
Thanks for sharing. Interesting!
high usage??????? wtf! there are diesel taxi benz on 400.000km 600.000km stil going strong om first engine.
Yep, and still fouling up the air, needing an oil change every 15 to 20 k..brakes every 60k in taxi use....Taxi drivers are cottoning on to the fact that EVs will clock up more km reliably than any diesel or petrol taxi...no ICE can match durability of an electric motor.
We're talking about 120k per year here. The fossil taxis you mentioned didn't drive 300k per year, right?
@@bjornnyland ok but show us an EV with 500,000 km and the first battery
I’m not sure what the objection here is ? If you want run a diesel or petrol car please do so…. Why is it a requirement of some people to one up their choice on TH-cam ? If you are happy with your choice of car and fuel good for you, keep it. No one asked anyone to watch this. This is not some award winning competition for the best One Upper and Fuel flex.
Can you do another eqc with higher mileage?
I don't understand Column J on your Degradation sheet of the spread sheet "degradation/cycle" what numbers do you use for that calculation? Looks like it might be degradation/1000 cycles? but I thought the degradation at the beginning 200 cycles or so is much worse than degradation following that... ie. cycle #200-400 will show less degradation than the 1st 200 cycles; so cars with low cycle counts would potentially be more penalized then cars with many cycles.....
Very good result and the overall efficiency per available kWh, hasn’t changed much from new. Ok, it’s lost some potential range but not much. ICEd vehicles are less efficient with age but no one seems bothered about that and it’s never mentioned. Seems to prove, that with the right BMS and good battery charging, there may be less worries about if the battery pack will last the rest of the vehicle’s life.
ICE vehicles aren't really less efficient over the years. We have a 18 hear old Mercedes C220 diesel with 320,000kms. The consumption is still the same over the same trip.
@@SDav21 Most people dont really take good care of their vehicles... gas and diesel are not one in the same..
@@samusaran7317 I don't see why a gas one would lose much in terms of economy either.
@@SDav21 Probably very little depending on vehicle upkeep.
I can really still get 1200 km on my 15yo and 360k km Alfa 159, and it's faster than factory spec (chipped) so it really comes down to regular maintenance which is 60 euro in 1 year if you do it yourself.
Hi. I can't see the formula for the degradation/cycles on the Tests File, but i think the logic behind it is flawed. For that result to have meaning, degradation would have to be linear and we know it is not, most of the degradation happens in the first cycles and after those it drops in a more linear matter if nothing abnormal happens. So a car with 200 cycles and 4% degradation is not worse than a car with 600 cycles and 7% degradation, that is because both could have had those 4% drop in 200 cycles and the other 400 cycles just add 3% of degradation. And by you calculation it looks like the those two cars would have different results but you can't be sure the first car is worse because the car still didn't do those other additional 400 cycles. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Think about this nugget: with an EV, the moment you disconnect your car that is 100%, the efficiency of your vehicle drops as you drive.
If your battery 🔋 weighs 800kg, at 50% you're hauling 400kg of dead weight. Imagine your battery reaches 50% charge it is like you gradually picked up 5 grownups for the drive.
Weight im EV doesn't increase consumption much.
th-cam.com/video/ChLSfpmnNZE/w-d-xo.html
@Bjørn Nyland not consumption, effectiency
234,000, that's quite high mileage for a Mercedes. No it's not. Mine had 722.000km on the clock and I still managed to sell it to Nigeria.
Accuracy of degradation test in cold weather?
I did a similar degradationtest with my Ioniq, 28 kW, from 2019, with 32000km. The car was changed to 100% in my cold garage ( ca 1° C). The charing stoped three ours before the test started. The I drove i on highway in constant speed at 90 km/h down to 2%. Outside temperature was -3°. The consumption was 13,3 kWh/100 km and the range was 175 km. That makes a total energy consumption of 23,275 kWh (=98%). 100 % = 23,75 kWh. If I assume that the battery hold 28 kWh at the start ( when the car was new) that makes a degradation of 15%. Is the assumption correct or does the battery hold less in cold weather?
PS. Your videos are great!
*28 kWh
Were the tests done with passengers? Weight is a factor.
Such a shame odometer wasn't 234567km 😪
234.000km high mileage for a Mercedes-Taxi? 😂😂😂
Forgot about this model
dont you have the obd tester youtoo loan out so you can let the owner test thems self ?
I did a 80 - 15 % yesterday. 271 km at 17.4 kw/100 km (it was downhill). 72.5 kw battery left 😢 the car only has 30.000 kms, mostly charged at home with 11 kw to 60%. Does the idle consumption with just pre-climate count in the consumption?
Hi Bjorn, any chance of finding BMW IX3 or VW ID4, Audi e-tron SUV's to add to the list?
7:30 whoa whoa sir, you do know that the first 10% of lithium battery degrades relatively quick compared to whats going to happen afterwards, right? So looking at the model 3 with 6% degraded in 60k km, well, it's the soft "spongy" area and you will see GREATLY reduced rate if you follow up in the next 150k km on that car.
Initial degradation is just 5 %, not 10 %. And all car manufacturers already hide this degradation from the user.
@@bjornnyland As far as i know, Tesla doesn't. Right?
I did a strip down of a Mazda 2 litre engine after a third of a million km's; no discernible wear..
I always load to 100% at my home-device, that loads really slow (11 Kwh). Given the low loading speed, does it matter that I load to 100% in terms of degradation? Thanks, Björn, for your test-reports; they are nice and very informative…..!
*11 kW
@@bjornnyland okay! But do you agree with TJjey?
@@Sebastien824 No. It is scientifically proven that degradation is related to state of charge. If you charge to [100%] 4.2V (per cell voltage) then after 500 cycles you get 70% of original capacity. [90%] 4.1V -> 70% after 1000 cycles. [80%] 4.0V -> 70% after 1500 cycles.
@@Sebastien824 No. All dependent on your needs.
Everybody knows you charge in 11kwh/h. 😎👍🏻
What a surprise to read dialectal Estonian called Finnish!
Are the German Cars doing exceedingly better than the rest or am I reading the data wrong?
Heat is another big factor in battery life. Expect more degradation in hot climates.
I was like I haven't seen the rest of the world adopt EVs as taxis thats odd but then I saw the UI and it was in Finnish 😂😂 no wonder. the EV adoption rate in the taxi industry here over the past 2 years has been mindbogglingly fast.
Can you even drive to Helsinki-Vantaa Airport with normal diesel taxis anymore? I know bigger taxi fleets have now dozens of EVs and those are replacing the C- and E-class vehicles.
in the climate of your country, a diesel works, an electric car is good in a country with a milder climate in winter
234.000 km is not high mileage Mercedes, that's actually what u get from a 2 yo car in Germany.
EQC can only charge at 7.4kW on AC so it must be that the taxi company has other EVs in their fleet that can take the higher AC charge rate to justify such a high power AC portable charger. Charging on 7.4kW in a car that has to earn its living is dog slow and means a lot of down time just to charge it.
It's not using AC, the charger showed is a DC charger.
They used this one:
kempower.com/product/kempower-movable-charger/
You can also order EQC with 11kW AC (3 Phase x 16A) charger and does not really change the price.
234000 kilometres, for a Mercedes, that's still relatively new car, when run as taxi, they always run far beyond 500000 km.
love it!
Björn next time Test Model S P85 With 1.5 Million on the Clock 😆
Very interesting.
Dude how long have u been charging it
Haha :)) if you think that 234000km is a high millage in a car, especially a Mercedes, than what would you say about vehicles which have over 500.000km !?
Björn: call for German salesmen (Vertreter) who uses mostly Ionity or other fast chargers to get more informations about that.
I know there are a lot using the model S, fat etron and EQS
I charge at 100 and routinely drop it under 5%. Nobody will take EVs seriously if people need to charge it within certain parameters ( 5%-80%) nonsense.
is ther any battery or motor change?
Model 3 go HOME!!
doesn't the battery degrade at a higher rate as charge cycles increase?
No. The first cycles will cause more degradation and after those it starts to slow down to a more steady rate of degradation. That happens because the chemicals inside the battery are still "green" at those first cycles and as they "mature" they become more stable and settled in, that makes the rate of degradation to slow down after those initial cycles.
I don’t get why cars that were mostly AC charged have the worse degradation values
Hows the tesla at this mileage
How on earth did a car that came out in 2021 have such high kilometers
why is the model 3 listed as having 73kwh new? model 3 had like 78kwh new.
Gross capacity vs net capacity.
@@josefv-y8m not true.
Degradation is a bad thing. And it is bad because you start with so little, that any amount is drastic. First you get like around 20% less then what is stated on the label. And to be fare this is exactly the amount (20%) with all the ICE engines and their consumption. But their fuel capacity is big and filling speed combined with filling stations availability makes those 20% more fuel consumptions just irrelevant. Also I just looked at the speed tests. The difference between 90 and 120 km/h is like mind blowing. Between 20% and 30% less efficient with 120km/h. With ICE cars most of the time this difference is between 0% - 10%. 20% is max for passenger cars, but there are some cases when cars are more fuel efficient around 120 then 90. May be pickups or Vans will reach 30%, may be. Unfortunately those 30km/h are more than 30% increase in speed and depending on how far is your destination it might mean a lot of time spend on the road. Lets say 200km, with 90km/h this will take ~135minutes. With 120km/h it will take ~ 100minutes. 35 minute difference for 200km is a lot. Here where max speed is 140km/h on the highway you can get 400km with only 3hour drive without stopping for a brake. And this is the main route for summer weekend vacations. I do not see that happening with any EV on your table. You either slow down and stop for a brake or you keep up with 140km/h and stop for a charge. Both will take the same time, one of them will be more expensive and if you find a spare or a working fast charger.
And this is why I do not think that Pure EV's are the answer. An enormous vehicle with so much resources in, big battery, big everything and it gets just around 300km of range with 120km/h speed. And even that is not enough, anything less is just waste of time. I do not see the point of that. What are you saving. Make a plug-in with 1/3 of that battery, with around 80-100 city driving real world range around 120-150hp electric motor suitable for everyday driving. Then leave the rest to a small ICE engine with the same power and 35l fuel tank.
You can hire the taxi to do the test for you?
How did you get a random taxi driver to do a test for you :D
Not random at all.
He had a "powered by kempower" sticker.
Like his previous visit to kempower where they showcased a taxi using a personnal kempower 40kW charger.
He must be in the same use case, and have a close relationship with kempower, whom must use his services to move around their guests.
If you watched part 1, I talked to the taxi driver and it turns out that Kempower chose this taxi driver specifically. They are also friends since the taxi driver bought the T series from Kempower. Kempower uses this taxi often for their customers.
In an earlier visit in February 2022, you can see the same taxi shuttling Kempower customers:
th-cam.com/video/pTYqLNQ4RW4/w-d-xo.html
@@bjornnyland Thanks dor the clarification, I wasn't sure if it was the same driver or not (the charging setup looked awfully similar).
How do you define a degradation cycle? is charging from 30%->80% a half degradation cycle? I don't know what data you can pull out of an EV, but would it be possible to do some calculation of "total kW charged / battery capacity" for a more uniform result?
Considering it is 50% and not near the maximums - it is safe to say it is probably less than 50% of a cycle. If you would charge near the beggining or end of SoC - it could constitute a full cycle with less than 100% charged.
A cycle is not only charging, it is also discharging. So this means that you described a quarter cycle
@@mattg432 I think this answered my question about the math used in the spreadsheet, thanks
@@Ankerstjerne1982 That is exactly as Bjørn explained in this video: it's the best statistical approximation - odo total kms/measured km range of available kWh = no of cycles
Not too shabby tho yeah cool 👍 it's good.
a lot of it is just luck. my model 3 also has 17% degradation after 60k kms and 3 years
That sounds too much. Did you measure it correctly or look at some app?
@@bjornnyland oh are you saying it was 73kwh on a 100% to 0% d/c (not including the buffer?). because that would fit
@@bjornnyland the bms is never wrong. And has never been wrong by +-1%. But I also used to drive long distance without supercharger access as i live remote. so yeah, that is very accurate.
how many winters/summers did it go through?
Its 2 years old, im sure you can count it yourself
Why don't you use the aviloo?
My Aviloo box is at home and I was just on a business trip to visit Kempower in Finland. That's why.
@@bjornnyland okay 👍 thanks
Mileage is not a good indication of degradation. Charging pattern is
Mileage is directly connected to number of cycles with is again directly related to degradation. Start watching my degradation videos to learn more.
@@bjornnyland There is some correlation, but it depends on how one charges. You can charge from 30-80%, or 5% to 100%, big difference. Or you can keep plugged in at 100% for months without discharging in summer heat - also very bad for battery. In the latter case, there may not be many charging cycles, but the battery will still degrade faster, than a car with many many 30-80% charge cycles.
If I ever meet Bjorn I sure hope he won't notice the odometer on my car...
234,000 km is nothing.. more or less still brand new... it's a Merc ffs
This video is all over the place.
Very hard to follow.
I wish everyone would only buy Kempower chargers not some bullshit tritium or ABB, ABB is really the worst.
Well ok so EV has a worst waste because we need to change the battery so it's not green at all, I believe we need gasoline that can be produced by plant