I liked your discussion about the Book of Ether referencing Jesus being the Father and Son. I would add that in Latter-Day Saint theology, Jesus is also the Father in the sense that he is the Father of Earth in the creation. Jesus and Michael are also the Fathers of the creation of plant life and animal life. Christ and the Father are the Fathers of the creation of human life. Stating that Jesus is the Father also emphasizes his perfect oneness with the Father.
We also talk a lot about the stones the brother of Jared got. The Lord gave answers for two things but for the light He basically said, how would you like me to resolve that and the brother of Jared came up with the stones. Lesson is try to come up with a solution then bring it to The Lord
@@joeshriver778 Two of the stones touched by Jesus were to be interpreters, and could be used by a seer to translate (See Ether 3 chapter heading, verses 23, 24, and 28 as well as "Urim and Thummim" in the topical guide)
Tyler Griffin is probably one of the best people I've heard explain the Book of Mormon. His grasp of the doctrine, the history and its intertextuality with the Bible and revealed scripture is top-notch.
He's incredible. I had him as my professor at BYU (and even fit him for a suit over at Missionary Mall down in Orem!) and he is not only incredibly smart and well versed in scripture, but is the kindest soul you could ever meet. Jeff is incredible and I'm so glad they go to chat.
Pastor Jeff - this was one of the best podcasts of your reading of The Book of Mormon. Having Tyler Griffin available to clarify and explain the historical, cultural and LDS perspective of what you covered was great and very helpful for showing the common ground we share. I hope Tyler will be part of a rereading of The Book of Mormon because your initial reading, though insightful and informative lacked a lot of depth and clarity that can be very helpful in bringing together the common ground we share.
@@cameronross7236 NEVER is an eternity and to state that definitively seems to imply that you know more than God and that He’s not in control of truth. Reading it is a single step in a process of understanding. Pondering is a second step and honest prayer is the final step in understanding. Without a personal experience of revelation for yourself you can’t know but when you receive that revelation then you recognize that Christ truly spoke truth when He taught that except you become as a small child you cannot be taught. It takes humility and an open heart and mind to realize that little children really are more teachable.
@@cameronross7236Not all Evangelicals will disbelieve. Fifty-three years ago I, as, a former Evangelical raised in the Bible belt, read the Book of Mormon and felt it is truth from God and a close companion to the Holy Bible. The Holy Spirit confirmed my findings in fasting and prayer to learn if it is true. Today, I still read and treasure both books as witnesses of our Savior Jesus Christ. I will ever be grateful for what I've learned both as an Evangelical and as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God be with you until we meet at the feet of Jesus.❤
Pastor Jeff, I am becoming a reluctant admirer. This is a much better format, in that you are having an open discussion about the Book of Mormon with an LDS scholar, rather than simply critiquing it only from your Protestant/Evangelical/Seminary lens. Having not grown up in a large population of LDS members, I have had many positive (and a few negative) experiences with other faith denominations. I was asked, growing up, if a peer could feel the horns on top of my head, and I witnessed a friend being cast out of an evangelical church from the pulpit. She was a 16 year old LDS girl who was curious about their faith and visited their meeting one Sunday. I went with her. Basically, the pastor told her she was a demon and commanded her to leave. I have had many wonderful interactions as well, and although they are less memorable, they definitely outweigh the negative. I have Catholic family members, and many Protestant friends, who I love and admire. I learn a lot from them, and enjoy our discussions, which focus on our common ground of the love for God and our faith in Christ. I do not think you have to embrace our theology in order to be a friend to the Saints, but I do think respect and understanding from both sides is necessary if we are to move forward and do good in the world, so thank you for showing that respect. It means a lot. I do not (as has sometimes been suggested), think that pushback against your early content is or was due to fear of “discovering” that our faith is not true. Rather, we are often skeptical that pastors and others who engage with us are really only interested in “gotcha” discussions, that frankly are uninformed, old and worn out, and (in my mind) have faithful and beautiful resolutions. In the end and all the way through, God is merciful and generous to ALL of His children. He knows us and recognizes us and will give us what we truly desire.
Today I just had an interview with my bishop. He told me that since now I’m a new member he wants me to have the Aaronic priesthood as well as following the offer of the three offices: priest, teacher, and deacon. Since he told me that I come from an extensive evangelical background, the position of priest was highly recommended to me. Though it’s not mandatory for me to choose, it’s a recommendation. As of now, I told him that I still want to be with the congregation of my ward and attend institute, elders quorum, and FHE for now. This October, we’re planning another meeting interview for me to receive my Aaronic priesthood and the following meeting in the future will be about temple recommendations.
That's great! Keep reading and praying. The blessings of the priesthood will increase your connection to God by acting in his name here in the earth. All the best!
First of all, congratulations! I want to point out that your Bishop's "offer" sounds a bit irregular, and it's possible you might have misunderstood him, or he didn't explain properly. All male members of the Church are sort of expected, or encouraged, to be ordained to the order of the Holy Priesthood, which includes both Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, as part of their covenant path and progression as members of the Church. The Aaronic Priesthood usually consists of the Young Men ages 12-17, however It's encouraged that new male converts receive the Aaronic Priesthood soon after their baptism, in preparation to receive the Melchizedek priesthood - we call them prospective Elders. Prospective Elders are ordained to the office of Priest, which is the highest office in the Aaronic order, with the exception of Bishop. Priests may administer all things related to the sacrament, and also baptize, teach, and more. Prospective Elders are then, usually after around 1 year and after undergoing the necessary preparation, ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood in the office of Elder, which is the lower office of that order. The majority of male members will be Elders until the end of their lives, unless they're called to serve in callings that require them to be ordained as High Priests, Patriarchs, Seventies or, well... Apostles. Hopefully that clears things up a bit :)
In the Bible, only Levite priests (30-50 years old) held the Aaronic priesthood. Mormon Aaronic priests (16 year olds) are not Levites. Mormonism is not biblical. Mormonism has a separate invented priesthood. John the Baptist never held a priesthood because he wasn't a Levitical priest. Thus, he couldn't have "restored" a priesthood to Smith and Cowdery that he didn't have.
Another fantastic discussion. I didn’t want the conversation to end! I have to say after all this I think Pastor Jeff will be the Evangelical world’s most foremost expert on the Book of Mormon! Which, I couldn’t think of a better ambassador! I hope he will be able to take what he is learning back to the Evangelical churches and, as he so beautifully stated in this video, help them realize that they don’t have to automatically just hate the Book of Mormon outright; but that there is good and something beneficial that can be gained by anyone who reads it! I think we can’t understate what a HUGE step it is for Pastor Jeff to even acknowledge that! I am blown away!
Ether chapter 12 verse 4 is my favorite verse in the whole book of Mormon. I joined the church almost two years ago and I won't lie when I read Ether the first time I was frustrated with how it started but when I got through that I loved it. I struggle with anxiety and so that verse brings great comfort and peace to me.
Latter-day Saint, here. Have understood Brother Griffin’s explanation of children of God vs. children of Christ, but I always love when someone explains it so clearly. Thanks to him for that and thanks to you, Pastor Jeff, for talking with him about these books.
With your theologically astute perspective and the preconceptions that come therewith, I feel having Dr. Griffin as a guide is the BEST way for you to read the Book of Mormon. He understands not only the Book of Mormon from a contextual perspective and its theological and doctrinal ties to other canonized scripture (Bible, D&C, POGP, etc.), but also he thoroughly grasps other religious viewpoints like mainstream Protestantism (e.g., Baptists, evangelicals, Methodists, Lutherans) and even 'unorthodox' views like Calvinists. Well done.
Love how you both can sit down and discuss the differences in your beliefs. I wish all people would do this, we learn from one another! I have to admit I was a huge skeptic when I first watched your channel, but I have grown to appreciate you and your efforts so much! I look forward to hearing your discussions, especially with my favorite teacher Tyler Griffins, he's a phenomenal professor - you are too, thanks for being open minded and not being like the other thousands of channels that just bash and spread hate. You are seriously the only evangelical I have ever seen that doesn't spew discord and contention towards our faith. Thank you, you are one of a kind!
I would argue he was a little bit wrong on how the plates will be translated it could be from someone like abenidi or like a Samuel the Lamanite. Someone in the church but not from the higherarchy
I loved this! Pastor Jeff you are so refreshing to listen to and I also enjoy Tyler very much. Keep these discussions coming. I hope you're not getting too flack from other faiths about reading the book of Mormon!
As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in recent years I have yearned for a more unified relationship with our other Christian friends. This interview makes me so happy.
Pastor Jeff these last few Book of Mormon reads with professors from BYU have been enlightening. Would you ever consider going back to the beginning and doing the same thing with the books you did by yourself?
I've enjoyed this Hello Saints video journey with y'all SO much! Thank you & your beautiful wife for sharing your thoughts, feelings and experiences with us, pastor Jeff! I think it's interesting that Mormon didn't place the book of Ether first in the sequence of the Book of Mormon. But I love how the Book of Omni ties so many things together, and mentions that Coriantumr was found by the people of Zarahemla & he spent 9 months with them sometime before the Nephites came across the people of Zarahemla. Mosiah must've been quite the lovable and respected man; it has always amazed me that an entire civilization of Zarahemla's people chose to be ruled by him and join the Nephites. I think of prophets like him and King Benjamin and Helaman when I read Doctrine & Covenants section 121. They were so remarkable. Anyway, thank you for these lovely videos! 🥰
Pastor Jeff, My wife and I have followed you since the very beginning of your exploration into the LDS faith and culture. Your recent readings and discussion about the Book of Mormon with Tyler have been especially effective and insightful in providing a fair and balanced approach to its study. Thank you for that. I am hoping that in your last readings ( and it may already be late) of Moroni that you would address your feeling about how you think the Book of Mormon came to be. Was it of God, or was it of man using one of the many theories exposed by critics since the beginning. Your perspective on the matter would be greatly appreciated. All our love to you and your family. Thanks for being curious.
Pastor Jeff - first off, I find you amazing.! You have an openness that is so appealing; it's almost magnetic. I just happened upon one of your videos one day, and though I haven't watched everything you've produced, I've watched a lot. I myself am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I investigated the Church when I was 19 years of age & out on my own, so to speak. I was raised in a humble protestant church and enjoyed going to church with my family (mom & dad & five kids). We enjoyed our interactions with other families in our congregation. Thank you for being so open to discover the similarities and differences between protestants and LDS doctrine. There is much I would like to say, but for now I just want to thank you for your searchings and for your allowing us to share in the discoveries. Keep up these actions. They are conducive to understanding.
You're so freakin' brave, ha. Coming at us and being genuinely patient and curious and loving and kind in all the differences. I can see years of healing ahead, even if some of us never agree fully.
I love so much the great addition of Dr. Griffin to these readings, this adds an amazing conversation between you two. I really hope you are able and willing to continue his inclusion as you read the pearl of great price, and Doctrine & Covenants.
I wish you were able to do this format from the beginning of your studies of the Book: First reading a few chapters yourself and then discussing as you go with someone like this brother. Keep learning. 🙏🏼
I appreciate the respectful dialogue from both perspectives. It reminds me of when someone reads the Bible for the first time. You’re barely even scratching the surface which is totally fine. When you get into some depth it will be more meaningful for you.
You will never understand the Book of Mormon as long as you approach it with the presupposition that Joseph wrote the book instead of translated it. God can't reveal his truth to those without an open heart. You will keep your heart guarded because you assume ill intent on Joseph's part. Be open to the truth God wants to teach you through The Book of Mormon and he will guide you. Good luck on your Journey, wherever you allow it to take you.
I don't believe Jeff assumes "ill intent on Joseph's part". He is studying the Book of Mormon for the purpose of better understanding his fellow followers of Christ so he can connect with, serve with, and build communities with them. He won't likely gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon's veracity that way, but he still is moving in a very positive direction of having love for others, refusing to be blinded by stereotypes and rumors, and focussing on following the Savior's plan for him. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, he'll figure it out in this life or the next and act accordingly, but right now he's focused on following God and building a relationship with Christ. That's a whole lot better than most people, even in the church.
A true follower of Christ belongs to His Church & knows when being deceived by others. Is Jeff deceiving others & trying to get gain by pretending he is interested? You will know them by their fruits & if you struggle ask the Father about Jeff. I use to watch but now come here for the comments to see what type of charm he’s putting on others. I thought he would be a member by now but I had to stop watching because I started challenging my own faith & wanted to belong to his Church. I even had some of my comments deleted & was attacked by someone saying I was wrong that Jeff will explain it in the next video why the BoM is false. I never watched it & stopped watching. I am concerned for my Sisters & Brothers who are charmed by Jeff. 😢
I really appreciate how respectful this discussion is. I know you have lots of questions and don’t believe the book for mormon is scripture but I really appreciate that you can see the beauty of such a book.
I love the explanation Tyler gave about entering the kingdom. That’s a hard discussion to have with loved ones or others to state the claim that one needs to be baptized and receive covenants by proper authority. It’s not a “drop the mic” moment saying “you are wrong and we are right” but acknowledges the great love our Heavenly Father has for us to give us the agency we have and then His required means to accept Him (His terms, not ours). I would think to the extent it represents your faith everyone needs to get to a point called “covenant confidence” to trust the path you are on is His and not just something that sounds good to you or fits your lifestyle better. I fully believe even my Jewish friends who are earnest in their development to be obedient to God…at some point, even if after this life, we will find ourselves on the same path (my understanding that they have accepted Christ and the ordinances on their behalf because they are earnest seekers and desire to follow the true and living God despite what may have been not as clear for them at that time in their life. On the other hand if the true reason we take the course we do is because it’s all about what I like for me and has been more of a justification, then that day will be one of judgment “that we never knew Him (JST translation of Christ saying “depart… I never knew you”)
@hellosaints - I really enjoy the cordial conversation, questions and answers, and respect you two have for each other despite different backgrounds and faiths. I feel that this represents true love of God and and your fellow man. Thank you for providing this type of content as an example for us all.
How wonderful to learn from two powerfully spiritually and doctrinally intelligent servants of the Lord. Together you guys are a powerhouse of faith, love, and teaching and learning. Thank you both for taking us on this walk through the Book of Ether. This is my second time watching this video…
Both of you love your Saviour and you are both respectful of each other’s views. Thank you for being able to converse without conflict. We all can learn from both of you.
Thanks for these. I always have pause and concern when someone of renown sits down with a Latter Day Saint to learn about our faith with them as I worry that we are so varied in understanding that someone might explain something that's not quite aligned with a solid doctrinal foundation. Brother Griffin is the best there is. I know that his interactions will have the highest possibility of teaching the most aligned exposition on our doctrine and do it in a kind way. This is a lovely interaction and sharing. I wish all our conversations were this way.
I like DaC 22 for the question of whether evangelicals are truly born again or baptized. It doesn’t deny their experience, it simply indicates that a new covenant is being presented, and all old covenants are to be replaced by it.
You don’t apologize for the gospel. The integrity of God’s truth remains unchanged, even if it is offensive to some. What matters is that this truth is not offensive to God. In another engaging and insightful discussion on the Book of Mormon, Pastor Jeff delivers a thorough examination and analysis of the chapters he highlighted. His approach meticulously explores the light and knowledge embedded in these passages, offering a deeper understanding of their meanings. Tyler plays a crucial role in this dialogue by simplifying complex concepts and providing clarification when necessary. As a result of this thoughtful examination, I gained valuable insights and made new discoveries within the Book of Mormon that I had not previously encountered. This robust conversation has significantly enhanced my comprehension of the text and has enriched my perspective on its teachings.
@@jake8882 THATS NOT EXPLANATION THATS SOMEONE MAKING RANT WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT.... DO URSELF A FAVOUR AND READ THE BIBLE 🤔BE GOOD IF U CAN ADD SUBSTANCE TO UR COMMENTS.
One thing I'm grateful for is the mature interaction which I feel is a good example on both sides...I hate the ofttimes angry voices associated w whether we are saved or not...I like the questions being asked and what appears to me as sincerety to know the answers and understand...I sense some challenge in being very careful in what to say and how to say it on both sides...I sence the concern of pastor Jeff to clearly note differences...conversations like these have got to b difficult w both sides being so careful in what they say for potential fear of repercussions of leading sheep in the wrong direction since the audience here is more than likely very interdenominational. I sincerely hope that these discussions at worst are something we all will learn from and at best may lead to greater friendships among our two beliefs...still watching and observing...
I love your conversations with this BYU professor! You two are both more on an even plane in your knowledge and learning and so I don’t feel like you’re talking around each others words. That helps me understand better, also. Thanks!
I will admit, the hardest thing for me regarding my testimony of the Book of Mormon has been apparent anachronisms such as New Testament words and phrases in the Book of Mormon. But there are reasonable explanations, as long as a person is willing to believe that God can and would inspire people in different times and places with the same words. 2 Nephi 29:8 "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also." It makes sense to me that God would give similar words and ideas that are found in the New Testament to the Nephites, since the truths of the Gospel are universal. If the Nephites were inspired of God, God could speak the same words to them as he spoke to Paul. There are certain places in the Book of Mormon where it mentions outright that Christ is giving them the words of Malachi, which they otherwise could not have had since he lived after the time Lehi left Jerusalem. If Joseph Smith was such a clever fraud, what sense would it make for him to include phrases and apparent quotations from the New Testament in the Book of Mormon? If I was trying to write a fictional Book of Mormon and trying to pass it off as authentic, I would try to make sure I am not quoting words and phrases first seen in the New Testament but not seen in the Old Testament.
As I’ve thought more about it the similar wording from the Book of Mormon with both the old and New Testament actually strengthens my faith that the Book of Mormon is from God. First of all there are so many examples of similar wording and echoes of scripture in the BOM that it would be quite the undertaking to pull it off. But also remember that the words that we have written in the BOM are the words given to Joseph Smith through revelation. He never claims to translate word for word. We don’t really know what that means for sure but we do know that Joseph claims that the words were literally given to him by God. So we should judge the words of the book on that claim - is this the word of God? Is it teaching me the same things that the Bible teaches? If the Bible is God’s word and God doesn’t change, then his word will be the same.
I think the hard parts for me is the parts where there are added lines for the critics in the future like 2 Nephi 29:8 and the one about not judging me because my writing is bad. I never read a line in the bible like that and honestly to me personally it feels like Joseph Smith added them in there to silence the critics. Like "look see even in the book that I am totally not writing says I am right and confirms everything I am saying". You know what I mean, does that make sense? I am not trying to be harsh, so hopefully that didn't come off strong. It just feels a little weird to me, maybe in time that will make more sense to me.
@@Zez88 how would Joseph Smith at that point in his life have any clue that he would even have critics? There was no church, there was no interest. Sometimes we think that Joseph Smith lives in our time but in 1827 no one cared.
@@andrewolsen2711 There was critics, what do you think the whole "missing 116 pages" was about? He was also chased with the golden plates and people started to doubt him. I remember being taught over and over again about how much persecution he got about seeing God the father and Jesus Christ, writing the book, and many other instances. It was the whole narrative of that "the adversary wanted to stop him". Also he translated Mosiah to the end of Moroni then "the small plates" 1 Nephi - Mosiah. Where interesting enough the verses about critics and even a prophecy about himself is located.
It was kind of funny to watch Jeff. He seemed a little over whelmed. I do appreciate his thurst for knowledge of understanding and even thurst for knowledge. Thank you Jeff for not just casting aside the faith of us the Latter-day Saints. Thank you for your genuineness of wanting to know about us and our beliefs. God bless my friend.
Buckle up! It’s deeper than what most people would expect! Thank you Tyler for your insight, you have been so helpful and inspiring with your come follow me lessons. Pastor Jeff, thank you for sharing this platform.
Nice job pastor Jeff love the open mind of seeing other ideas and perspectives. You are very intelligent and a great thinker, you have grown and gained a lot of knowledge by asking questions.
❤. Thanks for sharing your perspective Pastor Jeff. It helps me understand others with a similar understanding and reinforces my own faith and understanding. Keep seeking. There is so much good here. ❤
In documenting the history of the New World reported by natives of Mexico, early Franciscan missionary Bernardino de Sahagún wrote in the 16th century: “In the distant past, which no one can still reckon, which no one can still remember, those who came here to disperse [their descendants] - the grandfathers, the grandmothers, those called the ones who arrived [first], the ones who came [first], those who came sweeping the way, those who came with hair bound, those who came to rule in this land, those of the same name, those who seemed to form their [own] little world - came over the water in boats; [they came] in many divisions.”
I commend you Pastor Jeff for being so open and honest about learning about LDS beliefs. I enjoy how you share your beliefs and how important it is to understand one to another as our brother's & sister's in christ. I enjoy this podcast it shares pure understanding.
I have really enjoyed your discussions! I love the mutual respect that both of you are giving each other. I also appreciate the great questions! This is how all of us should treat each other with religion, politics, or any other things we need to talk about to understand each other.
This conversation was fantastic! I did not want it to end. Can’t wait for the next one on the Book of Moroni. First encountered Doctor Griffin from his Come follow me lesson companion videos and so enjoy learning from his wealth of knowledge. Pastor Jeff, thank you for showing us how to build bridges and respectfully discuss our faiths and look for common ground. These were beautiful doctrines discussed in this video that heal the soul and strengthen my relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Savior Jesus Christ!
Greatly Enjoy your Conversation with Dr. Griffin. I enjoyed the understanding of becoming Sons and Daughters of Jesus Christ. Keep it coming looking forward to the next discussion.
Speaking as an LDS, there were two questions you asked around the half-way mark - 1. Would an evangelical be considered to be included by Mormon doctrine as being born of Christ, and 2. What do evangelicals lack, if they feel they don't lack for anything in their gospel understanding. I believe you actually, in some way, answer your own questions as you continued to muse about theology (and I have yet to watch the rest of the video so maybe more established answers were eventually reached). You mention as you go on that even within evangelicals it's common to see those who maybe didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe that God has a plan for them too, even if you don't know about it. A very similar perspective exists codified within the LDS doctrine, and I think it's key to both questions. There's a passage in D&C 137 that speaks about the desires of the heart and how God knows them and judges people based on that, and this passage also says that those who would have received the Gospel, had they had the opportunity, will be judged as if they did receive it. I think this passage answers both questions. Firstly, if an evangelical is truly committed to following Christ and living by his example, I do believe this will be taken into account and in no way diminished, and their faith and commitment are not going to be somehow invalidated just because it didn't go through the LDS faith. I have personally met many evangelicals who I felt had a better relationship to Christ than I myself did and it encouraged me to be more diligent in that regard. So I personally would have little trouble believing they are included in whatever way, and if there are any practical affirming steps they maybe should have or could have taken, that part will be easily resolved for them without any issue. And secondly, I think having the expanded doctrine, in such forms as the D&C, and the possibility of further expanded doctrine from a living prophet - having actual answers to some of those questions that you're sure there are answers to, but not ones you specifically have. I think that's one of the things (though not the only thing) that perhaps the LDS gospel could offer you, and does offer me, personally, that perhaps you could say you lack. But I also want to say that I don't think it's just one way. Leaders of the church frequently make the offer to bring what you have and let us add to it. They never say to replace it, or correct it, they say to add to it, to expand it. What you do have is also already valuable, and perhaps by bringing that to us you can better us in the process as well. Perhaps the church could benefit by your addition, and the knowledge and perspectives and insight you could contribute. In any case those are my thoughts on it, and I mean them respectfully. I've enjoyed a number of your videos and most of all I appreciate the desire for mutual understanding.
I love how you did this but maybe adding this scripture helps him as well. The newtestement words of Paul 1 Corinthians 15 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
I have watched most of your videos, and I appreciate you having a conversation with a professional when it comes to the Book of Mormon. It shows a greater respect for the LDS faith. This is the first video where I felt the spirit, as you both spoke of truth. I hope as you have read and explored the LDS faith you have felt the spirit and Gods love
I´m learning more and more here. It filed my spirit while listening and watching. Thank you that both of you were very professional in dealing with this topic. Dr Tyler Griffin you're amazing. I followed your channel Pastor Jeff and thank you for opening this video. Many of us struggled in teaching the gospel, yet felt its true.
Sorry, this was a struggle for me. I’ve watched every one of Pastor Jeff’s videos on the Book of Mormon and I commend him for the physical effort of reading. But I find the longer we go, the more obtuse the analysis is becoming. So glad that Dr. Griffin was there, but Pastor Jeff’s questions about “which ocean”, “Semitic DNA”, “Hebrews 11”, “the same Urim And Thumim”, “the hill Rama”, “Masonic secret combinations”, all speak to the angle that Pastor Jeff is taking to this reading of the Book of Mormon, which for me misses the mark entirely. Don’t get me wrong, Pastor Jeff is extremely kind-hearted and I really like him. I still enjoy watching him, but I’m of the opinion that this is simply a “check the box” project. There is nothing to see here for him. His frequent reference back to the physical evidences of the Bible as supporting his witness of the gospel also seems entirely too materialist, if I’m honest.
I think it's okay that Pastor Jeff has these questions. He has never said he is approaching this from the standpoint of discovering if it's true. He is generally kind and respectful in his approach which I appreciate. As a member I have some of the same questions, specifically about the direct inclusion of new testament ideas and phrases throughout the book. It really is a lot like Hebrews 11 and I had that same observation years ago. It would have been good to hear Tyler address this directly.
@@russellblack4671 thanks for the reply. yes, it’s ok that Pastor Jeff has these questions. It’s just that they all seem to be coming from the same old “Christian bookstore” source materials. Sure, maybe if those questions were peppered in with a deeper dialogue, but they really aren’t. For instance, to ask all those questions but then to be basically silent on the scene where the brother of Jared sees the finger of God? Really??? As I said, it just seems like it is a very narrow reading. To be fair, it’s only 45 minutes, so things have to be left out, I get it. But the things that get left out in favor of what’s kept in, is revealing. I’ll keep watching as time permits, as I find pastor Jeff warm and friendly, but I’m not really learning anything other than it is evident he doesn’t use the KJV (which is fine btw), just an observation. Tyler Griffin keeps trying to direct the conversation to what is actually doctrinally important, but there is no real engagement on his insights, which is unfortunate.
To become a convert there has to be some desire there...I agree with your observation...at this point if he still doesn't know enough about LDS beliefs to have a desire to convert...then this is all for an alternate agenda...then again he could be completely sincere I don't know the man's heart...just sus
@@0dhowel I am curious what you mean. If he doesn't have a desire to convert it means he as an alternate agenda? I studied Hinduism for many years however, I have no desire to convert to them. With this logic it means we be should be closed to only the religion we join and shouldn't study any religion only if we want to join them.
I love this discussion format with Tyler and Pastor Jeff. I learn so much about the evangelical side-the questions an Evangelical would have. A lot of the questions come down to trinitarian/creedal vs godhead/non-creedal. Fascinating. Keep doing these! Obviously, you’re done with the Book of Mormon, but I hope you carry on in some way with this format.
This was a good discussion but you barely scratched the surface of the book of Ether! Also, J.R.R. Tolkien was quite simply beyond Joseph Smith on an intellectual level. He was a seasoned Oxford linguistic professor and worked for decades on middle earth. Reading actual writings from Joseph Smith show how poorly educated he was and there is just no way he came up with all this in early 20s, dictating with no notes or outlines on essentially a 1st draft. It's unfathomable.
As a Latter Day Saint, I would love to be able to have a conversation about the garden of Eden with you. I think there’s more to it than what I have heard you articulate about LDS understanding of what happened there.
Enjoyed the episode can't wait for the last book Moroni. Will you continue reading and sharing perspective with other later day saint texts like the doctrine and covenants or the pearl of great price?
Dr. Griffin, you are the best! ❤😊 Pastor Jeff, I had mixed feelings about this one. In places, it still seems like you are trying to hint that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the Bible (as our detractors frequently say). It's silliness to me. We can also say that Paul sounds a LOT LIKE Isaiah in Hebrews 12:12. ( Isaiah 35:3) Nephi had the record of Laban, and he had the spirit of revelation. It makes sense that echoes of the Bible would be found in the Book of Mormon. We would assert that much of the New Testament is an echo of the Old Testament AND of the Book of Mormon. Not the other way around. Either way, to my thinking, the one helps validate the other. "In the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. " In ALL these works, the Lord Jesus Christ is established as the only begotten Son of the Father and the anointed one ( the Christ) and the holy one of Israel. That is a beautiful thing.
This was absolutely fantastic. I had the chance to attend BYU for college and elected not to and it makes me sad I missed out on taking a course on religion from this caliber of instructor.
Wow! He is a fantastic profesor. You are our brother. All Christians and no Christians are. Sending you aloha from Hawaii. Come over and you would have a fantastic time among saints in Laie.
In The Book Of The Hopi by Frank Waters he recorded a legend of his ancestors being sealed inside reeds and brought across many waters, with islands rising out of the water as they approached to restock supplies and sinking back under water as they moved away, just as it would be described by someone with no knowledge of the horizon or that the earth is round. And something thar a people living in a desert, and whose ancestors are said to have crossed the Biering Straight Land Bridge, should have no experience with or be able to describe. This book also has an interesting version of the creation, in which the creator God, after each thing he creates, goes and asks the God above him if he did it right and is told "It is good, that is how I saw it." Now it's possible that these legends picked up attributes of the LDS members living around them, but unlikely with another story included. In the 1500s Catholic Francican Monks converted some Hopi in a village, and the other Hopi villages got together to decide what to do about it. They decided to throw everyone in that village off a cliff, even those who hadn't converted, and forbid anyone to adopt outside beliefs. Frank Waters said he wrote The Book Of The Hopi to preserve the history, beliefs and practices of his people in written form because the youth were not learning their ancestoral language, culture or history, and he was afraid they would completely disappear in a generation or two. This book was published back in 1963.
You know I highly commend you pastor Jeff. I maybe from another faith but I can say without a doubt that you are a man of faith. Maybe I'm early as I haven't gotten very far yet in the video but it seems at least from the start that instead of coming into the conversation to argue and reaffirm your own beliefs, meaning you don't truly believe very much but instead want to force yourself onto others you come to understand and learn about what others believe. As I say that is truly a man of faith not faked
As I listen to these, I wonder if there is still one missing ingredient for Pastor Jeff. That ingredient is being willing to sincerely put it all on the alter of the Lord. That willingness to pray that prayer that says: "Heavenly Father, is the Book of Mormon True? Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints really Christs church on the earth? Does the Church hold the correct keys, Covenants, and Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Followed up with a sincere promise to God.. Father if this is true, I will drop everything, jump on board with the doctrines, and become a faithful member of this church. (That last part is the hardest, but most critical). Not everyone is willing to make that sincere promise. That is a hard prayer for anyone to pray. Until that willingness to leave it all on the alter of the Lord including pre-concieved notions happens. That answer won't come.
I think what's missing is that Christians do not pray to the LDS Heavenly Father. Christians pray to the true and living God, who spoke the universe into existence from nothing, including the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from and the star Kolob that he came from. God the Father is invisible and a spirit. (I Timothy 1:17; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 11:27;) The LDS Heavenly Father is a spirit in the Book of Mormon and has a body later on. D&C 130:22 God is eternal. God has always been God. He never had to work his way to Godhood. He never had a mom and dad. He is self-existent. He doesn't need food, air, water, clothing, shelter, sleep, s-x, or anything else a mere created being might need. Acts 17:24-25 Unlike pagan gods, the true and living God is not married. God created Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve out of Adam's rib, no wife needed.
Just an interesting note to answer your question about the location of the Hill Ramah and Cumorah you had asked in about 40:00. The Hill Cumorah in New York may not be the same Cumorah from the Book of Mormon. Mormon stated in Mormon 6:6 "therefore I made this record [Golden Plates] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates [Golden Plates] which I gave unto my son Moroni." So he hid all the massive amount of records in Cumorah and gave the golden plates to Moroni who went and buried them in a different location which was later named Cumorah by the saints who, in my opinion, mistakenly named it such. This is not the official stance of the church. As i am aware, there is none. But the point that the now-names Hill Cumorah is the same Cumorah from the Book of Mormon is a very foggy territory.
Something that is very fascinating about the Book of Mormon in Central America is that there is a lot of archaeological evidence about the Book. There are pre-Columbian writings (before the arrival of the Spanish) that narrate the origin of the native peoples and explain that they came from the other side of the sea. Archeology is beginning to take into account the Book of Mormon as a document to be considered, to the point that archaeologists have it, the book even exists in the library and laboratory of the Institute of Anthropology and History of Guatemala
You know, in the discussion about secret combinations, you mentioned the editorial questions, and it raised an interesting thought for me: Moroni was abridging this after seeing the complete collapse of his civilization, and secret combinations were a big part of the story of that collapse. So I wonder whether the narrative has more emphasis on those secret combinations because the editor, Moroni, was really seeing those and they made an impression because of his own history. Of course, "bring me the head of the king" level conspiracies and secret combinations do leave an impression, so that may have been a big part of the narrative no matter who was writing it, but I wonder if thing were phrased just a little bit differently and seen just a bit differently because of Moroni's context and Moroni's world.
The baptism by fire is a large section that has been missed here not just baptism by water. By the Melchizedek priesthood. Hebrews 5:4 & Acts 8:9-20 specifically verse 17-20. Without this authority and the laying on of hands it can’t be received.
He would have been so cool to have teach seminary..as an ADHD, he would and has kept my attention. I love the Book of Mormon and Bible, they are so compatible with Heavenly Fathers and Jesus teaching
Something that really stood out to me that didn't stand out to me before is that in a way Latter Day Saints could potentially face the same problem people had with Joseph Smith with a potential seer translating the other sealed plates. Let me explain, there could be another seer that says I have the authority of God and I translated a new book that came from the sealed plates or even potentially one of the "other sheep" that Christ visited after the resurrection, however, if that person was not Mormon they wouldn't believe it. It interesting how it feels like the tables would then be flipped and It is just like how other churches didn't believe Joseph Smith because it didn't come from their interpretation of authority or understanding. Also, one thing that I always thought was a little strange was that with Joseph Smith there was so many new things coming out, you had the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, all the visitations from angels, at one point Joseph Smith was even talking in the language of Adam and Eve. However, after he died, it felt like everything went quiet again. Sure other prophets or apostles have written books however, a lot of them are now "not cannon" and they say follow the current prophet instead. Maybe its just me, but it just felt like being alive with Joseph Smith would have been very exciting to see all these new things and now it feels quiet.
@Zezz88 - Hello. It would be God's prerogative to provide the sealed portion of the plates and choose whomever he wants to be the seer that would translate them. He could choose someone unknown. If it's a non-Latter-Day Saint, their peers may still not embrace it since they don't embrace the rest of the Book of Mormon. Or maybe God would call the influential leader of another major religion to be the seer and translator, someone who is in a position to testify broadly to many that the sealed portion and therefore the rest of the Book of Mormon are legit. God moves in mysterious ways.
Did we miss anything in Ether? Any insights surprise you?
I liked your discussion about the Book of Ether referencing Jesus being the Father and Son. I would add that in Latter-Day Saint theology, Jesus is also the Father in the sense that he is the Father of Earth in the creation. Jesus and Michael are also the Fathers of the creation of plant life and animal life. Christ and the Father are the Fathers of the creation of human life. Stating that Jesus is the Father also emphasizes his perfect oneness with the Father.
We also talk a lot about the stones the brother of Jared got. The Lord gave answers for two things but for the light He basically said, how would you like me to resolve that and the brother of Jared came up with the stones. Lesson is try to come up with a solution then bring it to The Lord
I’m lds , I would like to know what can an lds person bring to your church… where’s your church here in Utah so i can come visit some time?
@@joeshriver778 Two of the stones touched by Jesus were to be interpreters, and could be used by a seer to translate (See Ether 3 chapter heading, verses 23, 24, and 28 as well as "Urim and Thummim" in the topical guide)
These are your best videos to watch, hearing your views and thoughts on lds scripture!
Tyler Griffin is probably one of the best people I've heard explain the Book of Mormon. His grasp of the doctrine, the history and its intertextuality with the Bible and revealed scripture is top-notch.
I so agree! He is amazing, a great teacher, and orator blessed from G-d.I miss his show with Taylor.
He's incredible. I had him as my professor at BYU (and even fit him for a suit over at Missionary Mall down in Orem!) and he is not only incredibly smart and well versed in scripture, but is the kindest soul you could ever meet. Jeff is incredible and I'm so glad they go to chat.
What does your Tyler Griffin say about Moroni 8:22-23 which obviously contradicts a huge pillar of the church?
Pastor Jeff - this was one of the best podcasts of your reading of The Book of Mormon. Having Tyler Griffin available to clarify and explain the historical, cultural and LDS perspective of what you covered was great and very helpful for showing the common ground we share. I hope Tyler will be part of a rereading of The Book of Mormon because your initial reading, though insightful and informative lacked a lot of depth and clarity that can be very helpful in bringing together the common ground we share.
Evangelicals will NEVER believe in the Book of Mormon. Ever. We only read it to understand where you're coming from.
@@cameronross7236 NEVER is an eternity and to state that definitively seems to imply that you know more than God and that He’s not in control of truth. Reading it is a single step in a process of understanding. Pondering is a second step and honest prayer is the final step in understanding. Without a personal experience of revelation for yourself you can’t know but when you receive that revelation then you recognize that Christ truly spoke truth when He taught that except you become as a small child you cannot be taught. It takes humility and an open heart and mind to realize that little children really are more teachable.
@@cameronross7236Not all Evangelicals will disbelieve. Fifty-three years ago I, as, a former Evangelical raised in the Bible belt, read the Book of Mormon and felt it is truth from God and a close companion to the Holy Bible. The Holy Spirit confirmed my findings in fasting and prayer to learn if it is true. Today, I still read and treasure both books as witnesses of our Savior Jesus Christ. I will ever be grateful for what I've learned both as an Evangelical and as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God be with you until we meet at the feet of Jesus.❤
Tyler is one of the best teachers I’ve seen.
Agreed, this was incredible.
Pastor Jeff, I am becoming a reluctant admirer. This is a much better format, in that you are having an open discussion about the Book of Mormon with an LDS scholar, rather than simply critiquing it only from your Protestant/Evangelical/Seminary lens. Having not grown up in a large population of LDS members, I have had many positive (and a few negative) experiences with other faith denominations. I was asked, growing up, if a peer could feel the horns on top of my head, and I witnessed a friend being cast out of an evangelical church from the pulpit. She was a 16 year old LDS girl who was curious about their faith and visited their meeting one Sunday. I went with her. Basically, the pastor told her she was a demon and commanded her to leave. I have had many wonderful interactions as well, and although they are less memorable, they definitely outweigh the negative. I have Catholic family members, and many Protestant friends, who I love and admire. I learn a lot from them, and enjoy our discussions, which focus on our common ground of the love for God and our faith in Christ. I do not think you have to embrace our theology in order to be a friend to the Saints, but I do think respect and understanding from both sides is necessary if we are to move forward and do good in the world, so thank you for showing that respect. It means a lot. I do not (as has sometimes been suggested), think that pushback against your early content is or was due to fear of “discovering” that our faith is not true. Rather, we are often skeptical that pastors and others who engage with us are really only interested in “gotcha” discussions, that frankly are uninformed, old and worn out, and (in my mind) have faithful and beautiful resolutions. In the end and all the way through, God is merciful and generous to ALL of His children. He knows us and recognizes us and will give us what we truly desire.
Today I just had an interview with my bishop. He told me that since now I’m a new member he wants me to have the Aaronic priesthood as well as following the offer of the three offices: priest, teacher, and deacon. Since he told me that I come from an extensive evangelical background, the position of priest was highly recommended to me. Though it’s not mandatory for me to choose, it’s a recommendation. As of now, I told him that I still want to be with the congregation of my ward and attend institute, elders quorum, and FHE for now. This October, we’re planning another meeting interview for me to receive my Aaronic priesthood and the following meeting in the future will be about temple recommendations.
It's an awesome journey to be on!
That's great! Keep reading and praying. The blessings of the priesthood will increase your connection to God by acting in his name here in the earth. All the best!
Congrats and wish you the best on your journey on the covenant path!
First of all, congratulations! I want to point out that your Bishop's "offer" sounds a bit irregular, and it's possible you might have misunderstood him, or he didn't explain properly.
All male members of the Church are sort of expected, or encouraged, to be ordained to the order of the Holy Priesthood, which includes both Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, as part of their covenant path and progression as members of the Church.
The Aaronic Priesthood usually consists of the Young Men ages 12-17, however It's encouraged that new male converts receive the Aaronic Priesthood soon after their baptism, in preparation to receive the Melchizedek priesthood - we call them prospective Elders. Prospective Elders are ordained to the office of Priest, which is the highest office in the Aaronic order, with the exception of Bishop.
Priests may administer all things related to the sacrament, and also baptize, teach, and more.
Prospective Elders are then, usually after around 1 year and after undergoing the necessary preparation, ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood in the office of Elder, which is the lower office of that order. The majority of male members will be Elders until the end of their lives, unless they're called to serve in callings that require them to be ordained as High Priests, Patriarchs, Seventies or, well... Apostles.
Hopefully that clears things up a bit :)
In the Bible, only Levite priests (30-50 years old) held the Aaronic priesthood. Mormon Aaronic priests (16 year olds) are not Levites. Mormonism is not biblical. Mormonism has a separate invented priesthood. John the Baptist never held a priesthood because he wasn't a Levitical priest. Thus, he couldn't have "restored" a priesthood to Smith and Cowdery that he didn't have.
Another fantastic discussion. I didn’t want the conversation to end! I have to say after all this I think Pastor Jeff will be the Evangelical world’s most foremost expert on the Book of Mormon! Which, I couldn’t think of a better ambassador! I hope he will be able to take what he is learning back to the Evangelical churches and, as he so beautifully stated in this video, help them realize that they don’t have to automatically just hate the Book of Mormon outright; but that there is good and something beneficial that can be gained by anyone who reads it! I think we can’t understate what a HUGE step it is for Pastor Jeff to even acknowledge that! I am blown away!
Ether chapter 12 verse 4 is my favorite verse in the whole book of Mormon. I joined the church almost two years ago and I won't lie when I read Ether the first time I was frustrated with how it started but when I got through that I loved it. I struggle with anxiety and so that verse brings great comfort and peace to me.
That's a great verse! And so true
Congratulations on your decision to join the church, I truly believe the Book of Mormon is true and is another testament of Jesus Christ. ❤
12:6 and 12:27 are also amazing ones
Latter-day Saint, here. Have understood Brother Griffin’s explanation of children of God vs. children of Christ, but I always love when someone explains it so clearly. Thanks to him for that and thanks to you, Pastor Jeff, for talking with him about these books.
With your theologically astute perspective and the preconceptions that come therewith, I feel having Dr. Griffin as a guide is the BEST way for you to read the Book of Mormon. He understands not only the Book of Mormon from a contextual perspective and its theological and doctrinal ties to other canonized scripture (Bible, D&C, POGP, etc.), but also he thoroughly grasps other religious viewpoints like mainstream Protestantism (e.g., Baptists, evangelicals, Methodists, Lutherans) and even 'unorthodox' views like Calvinists. Well done.
Dr Griffin is a teacher through and through!
Dr. Tyler you’re awesome. The spirit of the Lord is with you and may always be with you on sharing your ensights with the Book of Mormon.
Dr. Griffin and Scripture Central are crucial to my weekly scripture study. I can't recommend them enough. Thanks for bringing him on the channel!
Love how you both can sit down and discuss the differences in your beliefs. I wish all people would do this, we learn from one another! I have to admit I was a huge skeptic when I first watched your channel, but I have grown to appreciate you and your efforts so much! I look forward to hearing your discussions, especially with my favorite teacher Tyler Griffins, he's a phenomenal professor - you are too, thanks for being open minded and not being like the other thousands of channels that just bash and spread hate. You are seriously the only evangelical I have ever seen that doesn't spew discord and contention towards our faith. Thank you, you are one of a kind!
Oh I totally had him as a professor for my Book of Mormon class at BYU! I remember I loved going to his class!
I just love Dr. Griffin; his intelligence, humility and expertise in teaching is unsurpassed. I always learn so much from him.
Dr. Griffin is a great backboard for this type of video. I think that helps your academic analysis improve, Jeff. Great video
I would argue he was a little bit wrong on how the plates will be translated it could be from someone like abenidi or like a Samuel the Lamanite. Someone in the church but not from the higherarchy
As there is a prophecy of someone shall be like this too for our days.
@@MissionaryScottishWarrior another breakoff, cool!
I loved this! Pastor Jeff you are so refreshing to listen to and I also enjoy Tyler very much. Keep these discussions coming. I hope you're not getting too flack from other faiths about reading the book of Mormon!
As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in recent years I have yearned for a more unified relationship with our other Christian friends. This interview makes me so happy.
Pastor Jeff these last few Book of Mormon reads with professors from BYU have been enlightening. Would you ever consider going back to the beginning and doing the same thing with the books you did by yourself?
I've enjoyed this Hello Saints video journey with y'all SO much! Thank you & your beautiful wife for sharing your thoughts, feelings and experiences with us, pastor Jeff!
I think it's interesting that Mormon didn't place the book of Ether first in the sequence of the Book of Mormon. But I love how the Book of Omni ties so many things together, and mentions that Coriantumr was found by the people of Zarahemla & he spent 9 months with them sometime before the Nephites came across the people of Zarahemla. Mosiah must've been quite the lovable and respected man; it has always amazed me that an entire civilization of Zarahemla's people chose to be ruled by him and join the Nephites. I think of prophets like him and King Benjamin and Helaman when I read Doctrine & Covenants section 121. They were so remarkable.
Anyway, thank you for these lovely videos! 🥰
This conversation is so fascinating and enlightening to watch. The positive, respectful dialogue is more than encouraging.
Pastor Jeff,
My wife and I have followed you since the very beginning of your exploration into the LDS faith and culture. Your recent readings and discussion about the Book of Mormon with Tyler have been especially
effective and insightful in providing a fair and balanced approach to its study. Thank you for that. I am hoping that in your last readings ( and it may already be late) of Moroni that you would address your feeling about how you think the Book of Mormon came to be. Was it of God, or was it of man using one of the many theories exposed by critics since the beginning. Your perspective on the matter would be greatly appreciated. All our love to you and your family. Thanks for being curious.
Pastor Jeff - first off, I find you amazing.! You have an openness that is so appealing; it's almost magnetic. I just happened upon one of your videos one day, and though I haven't watched everything you've produced, I've watched a lot. I myself am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I investigated the Church when I was 19 years of age & out on my own, so to speak. I was raised in a humble protestant church and enjoyed going to church with my family (mom & dad & five kids). We enjoyed our interactions with other families in our congregation.
Thank you for being so open to discover the similarities and differences between protestants and LDS doctrine. There is much I would like to say, but for now I just want to thank you for your searchings and for your allowing us to share in the discoveries. Keep up these actions. They are conducive to understanding.
You're so freakin' brave, ha. Coming at us and being genuinely patient and curious and loving and kind in all the differences. I can see years of healing ahead, even if some of us never agree fully.
I love so much the great addition of Dr. Griffin to these readings, this adds an amazing conversation between you two. I really hope you are able and willing to continue his inclusion as you read the pearl of great price, and Doctrine & Covenants.
I wish you were able to do this format from the beginning of your studies of the Book: First reading a few chapters yourself and then discussing as you go with someone like this brother. Keep learning. 🙏🏼
I was just thinking that it would be great if he could go back and reread the first several books with someone like Dr Griffin. I'd love to see it!
I appreciate the respectful dialogue from both perspectives. It reminds me of when someone reads the Bible for the first time. You’re barely even scratching the surface which is totally fine. When you get into some depth it will be more meaningful for you.
You will never understand the Book of Mormon as long as you approach it with the presupposition that Joseph wrote the book instead of translated it. God can't reveal his truth to those without an open heart. You will keep your heart guarded because you assume ill intent on Joseph's part. Be open to the truth God wants to teach you through The Book of Mormon and he will guide you. Good luck on your Journey, wherever you allow it to take you.
Amen!! Well said!
I don't believe Jeff assumes "ill intent on Joseph's part". He is studying the Book of Mormon for the purpose of better understanding his fellow followers of Christ so he can connect with, serve with, and build communities with them. He won't likely gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon's veracity that way, but he still is moving in a very positive direction of having love for others, refusing to be blinded by stereotypes and rumors, and focussing on following the Savior's plan for him. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, he'll figure it out in this life or the next and act accordingly, but right now he's focused on following God and building a relationship with Christ. That's a whole lot better than most people, even in the church.
A true follower of Christ belongs to His Church & knows when being deceived by others. Is Jeff deceiving others & trying to get gain by pretending he is interested?
You will know them by their fruits & if you struggle ask the Father about Jeff.
I use to watch but now come here for the comments to see what type of charm he’s putting on others. I thought he would be a member by now but I had to stop watching because I started challenging my own faith & wanted to belong to his Church. I even had some of my comments deleted & was attacked by someone saying I was wrong that Jeff will explain it in the next video why the BoM is false. I never watched it & stopped watching. I am concerned for my Sisters & Brothers who are charmed by Jeff. 😢
I love Tyler Griffin. He's a good man. I was happy to see him on your show.
I have learned so much through Tyler and Taylor’s videos. They are amazing teachers!
I really appreciate how respectful this discussion is. I know you have lots of questions and don’t believe the book for mormon is scripture but I really appreciate that you can see the beauty of such a book.
I love the explanation Tyler gave about entering the kingdom. That’s a hard discussion to have with loved ones or others to state the claim that one needs to be baptized and receive covenants by proper authority. It’s not a “drop the mic” moment saying “you are wrong and we are right” but acknowledges the great love our Heavenly Father has for us to give us the agency we have and then His required means to accept Him (His terms, not ours). I would think to the extent it represents your faith everyone needs to get to a point called “covenant confidence” to trust the path you are on is His and not just something that sounds good to you or fits your lifestyle better. I fully believe even my Jewish friends who are earnest in their development to be obedient to God…at some point, even if after this life, we will find ourselves on the same path (my understanding that they have accepted Christ and the ordinances on their behalf because they are earnest seekers and desire to follow the true and living God despite what may have been not as clear for them at that time in their life. On the other hand if the true reason we take the course we do is because it’s all about what I like for me and has been more of a justification, then that day will be one of judgment “that we never knew Him (JST translation of Christ saying “depart… I never knew you”)
@hellosaints - I really enjoy the cordial conversation, questions and answers, and respect you two have for each other despite different backgrounds and faiths. I feel that this represents true love of God and and your fellow man. Thank you for providing this type of content as an example for us all.
How wonderful to learn from two powerfully spiritually and doctrinally intelligent servants of the Lord. Together you guys are a powerhouse of faith, love, and teaching and learning. Thank you both for taking us on this walk through the Book of Ether.
This is my second time watching this video…
Both of you love your Saviour and you are both respectful of each other’s views. Thank you for being able to converse without conflict. We all can learn from both of you.
Thanks for these. I always have pause and concern when someone of renown sits down with a Latter Day Saint to learn about our faith with them as I worry that we are so varied in understanding that someone might explain something that's not quite aligned with a solid doctrinal foundation. Brother Griffin is the best there is. I know that his interactions will have the highest possibility of teaching the most aligned exposition on our doctrine and do it in a kind way. This is a lovely interaction and sharing. I wish all our conversations were this way.
7:00 I needed this reminder today from Bro. Tyler
Im a convert and Ether 12 is one of my favourites. Great discussion and thanks. I'm no intellectual but really loved this.
Loved this having Tyler there to explain things as you went along with questions!! Great discussions!!
I like DaC 22 for the question of whether evangelicals are truly born again or baptized. It doesn’t deny their experience, it simply indicates that a new covenant is being presented, and all old covenants are to be replaced by it.
Brother Griffin is one of my favorite BYU religious professors! An outstanding disciple of Christ! :D
You don’t apologize for the gospel. The integrity of God’s truth remains unchanged, even if it is offensive to some. What matters is that this truth is not offensive to God.
In another engaging and insightful discussion on the Book of Mormon, Pastor Jeff delivers a thorough examination and analysis of the chapters he highlighted. His approach meticulously explores the light and knowledge embedded in these passages, offering a deeper understanding of their meanings. Tyler plays a crucial role in this dialogue by simplifying complex concepts and providing clarification when necessary. As a result of this thoughtful examination, I gained valuable insights and made new discoveries within the Book of Mormon that I had not previously encountered. This robust conversation has significantly enhanced my comprehension of the text and has enriched my perspective on its teachings.
Truth is what all are seeking. The book of mormon is mot true to me. It once did. I found it not to hold it's truth claims.
@@jake8882 IF THATS THE CASE DEFINE THE DOCTRINE OF TRUTH TAUGHT BY CHRIST???? 🤔 IF ONE IS LOOKING FOR IT.
@bittersweet340 I think people gain power and authority and they build false teachings. Read the Bible. It's in there.
@@jake8882 THATS NOT EXPLANATION THATS SOMEONE MAKING RANT WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT.... DO URSELF A FAVOUR AND READ THE BIBLE 🤔BE GOOD IF U CAN ADD SUBSTANCE TO UR COMMENTS.
@bittersweet340 it's easy. Lds church is horseshit and it's easy to see. You seem like a smart guy.
One thing I'm grateful for is the mature interaction which I feel is a good example on both sides...I hate the ofttimes angry voices associated w whether we are saved or not...I like the questions being asked and what appears to me as sincerety to know the answers and understand...I sense some challenge in being very careful in what to say and how to say it on both sides...I sence the concern of pastor Jeff to clearly note differences...conversations like these have got to b difficult w both sides being so careful in what they say for potential fear of repercussions of leading sheep in the wrong direction since the audience here is more than likely very interdenominational. I sincerely hope that these discussions at worst are something we all will learn from and at best may lead to greater friendships among our two beliefs...still watching and observing...
I love your conversations with this BYU professor! You two are both more on an even plane in your knowledge and learning and so I don’t feel like you’re talking around each others words. That helps me understand better, also. Thanks!
I will admit, the hardest thing for me regarding my testimony of the Book of Mormon has been apparent anachronisms such as New Testament words and phrases in the Book of Mormon. But there are reasonable explanations, as long as a person is willing to believe that God can and would inspire people in different times and places with the same words.
2 Nephi 29:8 "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also."
It makes sense to me that God would give similar words and ideas that are found in the New Testament to the Nephites, since the truths of the Gospel are universal. If the Nephites were inspired of God, God could speak the same words to them as he spoke to Paul. There are certain places in the Book of Mormon where it mentions outright that Christ is giving them the words of Malachi, which they otherwise could not have had since he lived after the time Lehi left Jerusalem.
If Joseph Smith was such a clever fraud, what sense would it make for him to include phrases and apparent quotations from the New Testament in the Book of Mormon? If I was trying to write a fictional Book of Mormon and trying to pass it off as authentic, I would try to make sure I am not quoting words and phrases first seen in the New Testament but not seen in the Old Testament.
As I’ve thought more about it the similar wording from the Book of Mormon with both the old and New Testament actually strengthens my faith that the Book of Mormon is from God. First of all there are so many examples of similar wording and echoes of scripture in the BOM that it would be quite the undertaking to pull it off. But also remember that the words that we have written in the BOM are the words given to Joseph Smith through revelation. He never claims to translate word for word. We don’t really know what that means for sure but we do know that Joseph claims that the words were literally given to him by God. So we should judge the words of the book on that claim - is this the word of God? Is it teaching me the same things that the Bible teaches? If the Bible is God’s word and God doesn’t change, then his word will be the same.
@@michaelbennett7561 excellent points!
I think the hard parts for me is the parts where there are added lines for the critics in the future like 2 Nephi 29:8 and the one about not judging me because my writing is bad. I never read a line in the bible like that and honestly to me personally it feels like Joseph Smith added them in there to silence the critics. Like "look see even in the book that I am totally not writing says I am right and confirms everything I am saying".
You know what I mean, does that make sense?
I am not trying to be harsh, so hopefully that didn't come off strong. It just feels a little weird to me, maybe in time that will make more sense to me.
@@Zez88 how would Joseph Smith at that point in his life have any clue that he would even have critics? There was no church, there was no interest. Sometimes we think that Joseph Smith lives in our time but in 1827 no one cared.
@@andrewolsen2711 There was critics, what do you think the whole "missing 116 pages" was about? He was also chased with the golden plates and people started to doubt him.
I remember being taught over and over again about how much persecution he got about seeing God the father and Jesus Christ, writing the book, and many other instances. It was the whole narrative of that "the adversary wanted to stop him".
Also he translated Mosiah to the end of Moroni then "the small plates" 1 Nephi - Mosiah. Where interesting enough the verses about critics and even a prophecy about himself is located.
It was kind of funny to watch Jeff. He seemed a little over whelmed. I do appreciate his thurst for knowledge of understanding and even thurst for knowledge. Thank you Jeff for not just casting aside the faith of us the Latter-day Saints. Thank you for your genuineness of wanting to know about us and our beliefs. God bless my friend.
You're almost done! Thanks for doing this series, it's been great!
Buckle up! It’s deeper than what most people would expect! Thank you Tyler for your insight, you have been so helpful and inspiring with your come follow me lessons. Pastor Jeff, thank you for sharing this platform.
Nice job pastor Jeff love the open mind of seeing other ideas and perspectives. You are very intelligent and a great thinker, you have grown and gained a lot of knowledge by asking questions.
This is a very interesting conversation. I love Pastor Jeff and Dr. Griff. God Bless each of you! May you all prosper in the land.
This was a great discussion! Well done!
❤. Thanks for sharing your perspective Pastor Jeff. It helps me understand others with a similar understanding and reinforces my own faith and understanding. Keep seeking. There is so much good here. ❤
In documenting the history of the New World reported by natives of Mexico, early Franciscan missionary Bernardino de Sahagún wrote in the 16th century:
“In the distant past, which no one can still reckon, which no one can still remember, those who came here to disperse [their descendants] - the grandfathers, the grandmothers, those called the ones who arrived [first], the ones who came [first], those who came sweeping the way, those who came with hair bound, those who came to rule in this land, those of the same name, those who seemed to form their [own] little world - came over the water in boats; [they came] in many divisions.”
Ive been waiting for this… thank you in advance, even before i watch…
I commend you Pastor Jeff for being so open and honest about learning about LDS beliefs.
I enjoy how you share your beliefs and how important it is to understand one to another as our brother's & sister's in christ.
I enjoy this podcast it shares pure understanding.
I have really enjoyed your discussions! I love the mutual respect that both of you are giving each other. I also appreciate the great questions! This is how all of us should treat each other with religion, politics, or any other things we need to talk about to understand each other.
Thank you both for your exemplary dialogue motivated by curiosity and seeking understanding.
This conversation was fantastic! I did not want it to end. Can’t wait for the next one on the Book of Moroni. First encountered Doctor Griffin from his Come follow me lesson companion videos and so enjoy learning from his wealth of knowledge. Pastor Jeff, thank you for showing us how to build bridges and respectfully discuss our faiths and look for common ground. These were beautiful doctrines discussed in this video that heal the soul and strengthen my relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Savior Jesus Christ!
Greatly Enjoy your Conversation with Dr. Griffin. I enjoyed the understanding of becoming Sons and Daughters of Jesus Christ. Keep it coming looking forward to the next discussion.
Speaking as an LDS, there were two questions you asked around the half-way mark - 1. Would an evangelical be considered to be included by Mormon doctrine as being born of Christ, and 2. What do evangelicals lack, if they feel they don't lack for anything in their gospel understanding. I believe you actually, in some way, answer your own questions as you continued to muse about theology (and I have yet to watch the rest of the video so maybe more established answers were eventually reached). You mention as you go on that even within evangelicals it's common to see those who maybe didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel and believe that God has a plan for them too, even if you don't know about it. A very similar perspective exists codified within the LDS doctrine, and I think it's key to both questions.
There's a passage in D&C 137 that speaks about the desires of the heart and how God knows them and judges people based on that, and this passage also says that those who would have received the Gospel, had they had the opportunity, will be judged as if they did receive it. I think this passage answers both questions.
Firstly, if an evangelical is truly committed to following Christ and living by his example, I do believe this will be taken into account and in no way diminished, and their faith and commitment are not going to be somehow invalidated just because it didn't go through the LDS faith. I have personally met many evangelicals who I felt had a better relationship to Christ than I myself did and it encouraged me to be more diligent in that regard. So I personally would have little trouble believing they are included in whatever way, and if there are any practical affirming steps they maybe should have or could have taken, that part will be easily resolved for them without any issue.
And secondly, I think having the expanded doctrine, in such forms as the D&C, and the possibility of further expanded doctrine from a living prophet - having actual answers to some of those questions that you're sure there are answers to, but not ones you specifically have. I think that's one of the things (though not the only thing) that perhaps the LDS gospel could offer you, and does offer me, personally, that perhaps you could say you lack. But I also want to say that I don't think it's just one way. Leaders of the church frequently make the offer to bring what you have and let us add to it. They never say to replace it, or correct it, they say to add to it, to expand it. What you do have is also already valuable, and perhaps by bringing that to us you can better us in the process as well. Perhaps the church could benefit by your addition, and the knowledge and perspectives and insight you could contribute.
In any case those are my thoughts on it, and I mean them respectfully. I've enjoyed a number of your videos and most of all I appreciate the desire for mutual understanding.
I love how you did this but maybe adding this scripture helps him as well. The newtestement words of Paul 1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
I have watched most of your videos, and I appreciate you having a conversation with a professional when it comes to the Book of Mormon. It shows a greater respect for the LDS faith. This is the first video where I felt the spirit, as you both spoke of truth. I hope as you have read and explored the LDS faith you have felt the spirit and Gods love
I´m learning more and more here. It filed my spirit while listening and watching. Thank you that both of you were very professional in dealing with this topic. Dr Tyler Griffin you're amazing. I followed your channel Pastor Jeff and thank you for opening this video. Many of us struggled in teaching the gospel, yet felt its true.
Absolutely fascinating conversations. Both of you guys are extremely smart, gifted and faithful Christians. ✝️🪨
Thanks Pastor Jeff and Dr. Tyler Griffin. Well done.
Sorry, this was a struggle for me. I’ve watched every one of Pastor Jeff’s videos on the Book of Mormon and I commend him for the physical effort of reading. But I find the longer we go, the more obtuse the analysis is becoming. So glad that Dr. Griffin was there, but Pastor Jeff’s questions about “which ocean”, “Semitic DNA”, “Hebrews 11”, “the same Urim And Thumim”, “the hill Rama”, “Masonic secret combinations”, all speak to the angle that Pastor Jeff is taking to this reading of the Book of Mormon, which for me misses the mark entirely.
Don’t get me wrong, Pastor Jeff is extremely kind-hearted and I really like him. I still enjoy watching him, but I’m of the opinion that this is simply a “check the box” project. There is nothing to see here for him. His frequent reference back to the physical evidences of the Bible as supporting his witness of the gospel also seems entirely too materialist, if I’m honest.
I think it's okay that Pastor Jeff has these questions. He has never said he is approaching this from the standpoint of discovering if it's true. He is generally kind and respectful in his approach which I appreciate. As a member I have some of the same questions, specifically about the direct inclusion of new testament ideas and phrases throughout the book. It really is a lot like Hebrews 11 and I had that same observation years ago. It would have been good to hear Tyler address this directly.
@@russellblack4671 thanks for the reply. yes, it’s ok that Pastor Jeff has these questions. It’s just that they all seem to be coming from the same old “Christian bookstore” source materials. Sure, maybe if those questions were peppered in with a deeper dialogue, but they really aren’t. For instance, to ask all those questions but then to be basically silent on the scene where the brother of Jared sees the finger of God? Really???
As I said, it just seems like it is a very narrow reading. To be fair, it’s only 45 minutes, so things have to be left out, I get it. But the things that get left out in favor of what’s kept in, is revealing. I’ll keep watching as time permits, as I find pastor Jeff warm and friendly, but I’m not really learning anything other than it is evident he doesn’t use the KJV (which is fine btw), just an observation.
Tyler Griffin keeps trying to direct the conversation to what is actually doctrinally important, but there is no real engagement on his insights, which is unfortunate.
Both good points
To become a convert there has to be some desire there...I agree with your observation...at this point if he still doesn't know enough about LDS beliefs to have a desire to convert...then this is all for an alternate agenda...then again he could be completely sincere I don't know the man's heart...just sus
@@0dhowel I am curious what you mean. If he doesn't have a desire to convert it means he as an alternate agenda? I studied Hinduism for many years however, I have no desire to convert to them. With this logic it means we be should be closed to only the religion we join and shouldn't study any religion only if we want to join them.
The book of Ether is definitely one of my favorite books!
I love this discussion format with Tyler and Pastor Jeff. I learn so much about the evangelical side-the questions an Evangelical would have. A lot of the questions come down to trinitarian/creedal vs godhead/non-creedal. Fascinating. Keep doing these! Obviously, you’re done with the Book of Mormon, but I hope you carry on in some way with this format.
Awesome video, youz two are great together. Things are well explained. Thx
I get the impression that he felt something this session. There was a lot unpacked and I felt the spirit.
This was a good discussion but you barely scratched the surface of the book of Ether! Also, J.R.R. Tolkien was quite simply beyond Joseph Smith on an intellectual level. He was a seasoned Oxford linguistic professor and worked for decades on middle earth. Reading actual writings from Joseph Smith show how poorly educated he was and there is just no way he came up with all this in early 20s, dictating with no notes or outlines on essentially a 1st draft. It's unfathomable.
His Grandmother was a school teacher, and hid father was also a school teacher. Hard to believe JS was not educated!
Did he write D&C, or was that translated as well? If that was his actual writing, it feels very well done to be honest.
@@Zez88Much of the D&C was revealed as is.
@@Zez88 Go check out a replica of the original BOM and D&C and see for yourself how many changes were made after JS died! Compare side by side
This is amazing content. Best video yet!
As a Latter Day Saint, I would love to be able to have a conversation about the garden of Eden with you. I think there’s more to it than what I have heard you articulate about LDS understanding of what happened there.
Wonderful conversation!!
Enjoyed the episode can't wait for the last book Moroni. Will you continue reading and sharing perspective with other later day saint texts like the doctrine and covenants or the pearl of great price?
Dr. Griffin, you are the best! ❤😊
Pastor Jeff, I had mixed feelings about this one. In places, it still seems like you are trying to hint that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the Bible (as our detractors frequently say). It's silliness to me. We can also say that Paul sounds a LOT LIKE Isaiah in Hebrews 12:12. ( Isaiah 35:3)
Nephi had the record of Laban, and he had the spirit of revelation. It makes sense that echoes of the Bible would be found in the Book of Mormon. We would assert that much of the New Testament is an echo of the Old Testament AND of the Book of Mormon. Not the other way around. Either way, to my thinking, the one helps validate the other. "In the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. " In ALL these works, the Lord Jesus Christ is established as the only begotten Son of the Father and the anointed one ( the Christ) and the holy one of Israel. That is a beautiful thing.
This was absolutely fantastic. I had the chance to attend BYU for college and elected not to and it makes me sad I missed out on taking a course on religion from this caliber of instructor.
Wow! He is a fantastic profesor. You are our brother. All Christians and no Christians are. Sending you aloha from Hawaii. Come over and you would have a fantastic time among saints in Laie.
Thanks again Pastor Jeff!
In The Book Of The Hopi by Frank Waters he recorded a legend of his ancestors being sealed inside reeds and brought across many waters, with islands rising out of the water as they approached to restock supplies and sinking back under water as they moved away, just as it would be described by someone with no knowledge of the horizon or that the earth is round. And something thar a people living in a desert, and whose ancestors are said to have crossed the Biering Straight Land Bridge, should have no experience with or be able to describe. This book also has an interesting version of the creation, in which the creator God, after each thing he creates, goes and asks the God above him if he did it right and is told "It is good, that is how I saw it." Now it's possible that these legends picked up attributes of the LDS members living around them, but unlikely with another story included. In the 1500s Catholic Francican Monks converted some Hopi in a village, and the other Hopi villages got together to decide what to do about it. They decided to throw everyone in that village off a cliff, even those who hadn't converted, and forbid anyone to adopt outside beliefs. Frank Waters said he wrote The Book Of The Hopi to preserve the history, beliefs and practices of his people in written form because the youth were not learning their ancestoral language, culture or history, and he was afraid they would completely disappear in a generation or two. This book was published back in 1963.
You know I highly commend you pastor Jeff. I maybe from another faith but I can say without a doubt that you are a man of faith. Maybe I'm early as I haven't gotten very far yet in the video but it seems at least from the start that instead of coming into the conversation to argue and reaffirm your own beliefs, meaning you don't truly believe very much but instead want to force yourself onto others you come to understand and learn about what others believe. As I say that is truly a man of faith not faked
Excellent! Thank you!
Freaking awesome!!! Great study, great questions! Great faith if God both of you.
Very good I was interesting to hear both of your observations and dialogue on the ook of Mormon. Thank you ❤️
Great discussion. Thanks for this.
Hey, that's Tyler!
This was really nice, thank you.
Tyler gives one of the best explanations I have heard regarding secret combinations begin just after minute 30 in this video.
1:52 just note the BOM text never says “Babel”
That 29 minute mark! Thats what I was telling the fellas who stopped by!!
I love this duo discussion ❤
Brother Griffin is awesome! Best reading yet.
As I listen to these, I wonder if there is still one missing ingredient for Pastor Jeff. That ingredient is being willing to sincerely put it all on the alter of the Lord. That willingness to pray that prayer that says: "Heavenly Father, is the Book of Mormon True? Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints really Christs church on the earth? Does the Church hold the correct keys, Covenants, and Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Followed up with a sincere promise to God.. Father if this is true, I will drop everything, jump on board with the doctrines, and become a faithful member of this church. (That last part is the hardest, but most critical). Not everyone is willing to make that sincere promise. That is a hard prayer for anyone to pray. Until that willingness to leave it all on the alter of the Lord including pre-concieved notions happens. That answer won't come.
I think what's missing is that Christians do not pray to the LDS Heavenly Father. Christians pray to the true and living God, who spoke the universe into existence from nothing, including the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from and the star Kolob that he came from.
God the Father is invisible and a spirit. (I Timothy 1:17; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 11:27;) The LDS Heavenly Father is a spirit in the Book of Mormon and has a body later on. D&C 130:22
God is eternal. God has always been God. He never had to work his way to Godhood. He never had a mom and dad. He is self-existent. He doesn't need food, air, water, clothing, shelter, sleep, s-x, or anything else a mere created being might need. Acts 17:24-25
Unlike pagan gods, the true and living God is not married. God created Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve out of Adam's rib, no wife needed.
He is not on the path of conversion. He is doing interfaith work. Respect other.peoples' sincerely held.beliefs.
Just an interesting note to answer your question about the location of the Hill Ramah and Cumorah you had asked in about 40:00.
The Hill Cumorah in New York may not be the same Cumorah from the Book of Mormon. Mormon stated in Mormon 6:6 "therefore I made this record [Golden Plates] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates [Golden Plates] which I gave unto my son Moroni." So he hid all the massive amount of records in Cumorah and gave the golden plates to Moroni who went and buried them in a different location which was later named Cumorah by the saints who, in my opinion, mistakenly named it such.
This is not the official stance of the church. As i am aware, there is none. But the point that the now-names Hill Cumorah is the same Cumorah from the Book of Mormon is a very foggy territory.
Seeing your growth in your conversion to Christ is great.
Something that is very fascinating about the Book of Mormon in Central America is that there is a lot of archaeological evidence about the Book. There are pre-Columbian writings (before the arrival of the Spanish) that narrate the origin of the native peoples and explain that they came from the other side of the sea. Archeology is beginning to take into account the Book of Mormon as a document to be considered, to the point that archaeologists have it, the book even exists in the library and laboratory of the Institute of Anthropology and History of Guatemala
You know, in the discussion about secret combinations, you mentioned the editorial questions, and it raised an interesting thought for me: Moroni was abridging this after seeing the complete collapse of his civilization, and secret combinations were a big part of the story of that collapse. So I wonder whether the narrative has more emphasis on those secret combinations because the editor, Moroni, was really seeing those and they made an impression because of his own history. Of course, "bring me the head of the king" level conspiracies and secret combinations do leave an impression, so that may have been a big part of the narrative no matter who was writing it, but I wonder if thing were phrased just a little bit differently and seen just a bit differently because of Moroni's context and Moroni's world.
The baptism by fire is a large section that has been missed here not just baptism by water. By the Melchizedek priesthood. Hebrews 5:4 & Acts 8:9-20 specifically verse 17-20. Without this authority and the laying on of hands it can’t be received.
Excellent video, thank you Pastor Jeff.
He would have been so cool to have teach seminary..as an ADHD, he would and has kept my attention. I love the Book of Mormon and Bible, they are so compatible with Heavenly Fathers and Jesus teaching
Something that really stood out to me that didn't stand out to me before is that in a way Latter Day Saints could potentially face the same problem people had with Joseph Smith with a potential seer translating the other sealed plates.
Let me explain, there could be another seer that says I have the authority of God and I translated a new book that came from the sealed plates or even potentially one of the "other sheep" that Christ visited after the resurrection, however, if that person was not Mormon they wouldn't believe it. It interesting how it feels like the tables would then be flipped and It is just like how other churches didn't believe Joseph Smith because it didn't come from their interpretation of authority or understanding.
Also, one thing that I always thought was a little strange was that with Joseph Smith there was so many new things coming out, you had the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, all the visitations from angels, at one point Joseph Smith was even talking in the language of Adam and Eve. However, after he died, it felt like everything went quiet again. Sure other prophets or apostles have written books however, a lot of them are now "not cannon" and they say follow the current prophet instead. Maybe its just me, but it just felt like being alive with Joseph Smith would have been very exciting to see all these new things and now it feels quiet.
@Zezz88 - Hello. It would be God's prerogative to provide the sealed portion of the plates and choose whomever he wants to be the seer that would translate them. He could choose someone unknown. If it's a non-Latter-Day Saint, their peers may still not embrace it since they don't embrace the rest of the Book of Mormon. Or maybe God would call the influential leader of another major religion to be the seer and translator, someone who is in a position to testify broadly to many that the sealed portion and therefore the rest of the Book of Mormon are legit. God moves in mysterious ways.