I will super counter super counters consistently instead of even attempting vanish war there are high levels pc players they won’t go into vanish wars for the super counter war instead
i feel like yall are looking at the wrong problem. 99% of people can’t do super counters on accident let alone spam them. The most i did consecutively on purpose was 3; it’s really a skill diff. The real problem is the vanishing, that’s the only thing people are really consistently spamming. You could count on one hand how many times somebody super counters in a match. you get a vanish war in almost every exchange unless yall have no ki
Another idea is changing the z-counter vanish type so if you vanish a super counter you end up behind but without the attack, ideally this specific vanish would place both people at plus 0 neutral, but the person who throws the super counter is back turned and therefore disadvantaged and can’t attack first. this gets rid of the need for vanish wars after a super counter, and super counter wars which i’ve been seeing in high level play.
I haven't watched the whole thing yet but I got to the part where you mentioned me etc. Thank you for the shout-out. I'll try to check back here frequently if anyone has any questions. And I wasn't subbed to you before, I've subbed now. Cheers.
I think a good way to solve super counters is to just make it to where if you vanish the super counter it’s a regular vanish not a counter attack. Also give the person that did the super counter enough frames to turn around and do perception, block or sonic sway. That way it’s not guaranteed backshots. This would also end 90% of vanish wars
Glad yall spoke on how easy it is to break free from throws while using perception. And it doesn’t help how simple it is to tech throws in this game. I literally could have someone mid throw animation & all they have to do is press a button to cancel it
I was playing perfect cell, and I was in the animation of throwing someone, and he somehow broke through it. I almost gave up on the game. Defense is just too powerful. You gotta use an op character, especially if you don't know how to super counter.
I just want to say, I am loving the enthusiasm surrounding talking about aspects of the game. Giving criticism where its warranted, showing multiple perspectives, covering different topics in different vids. I feel this shows the passion for the game I wanted to see from the community and honestly from myself. I feel passionate for the game but I'm not expressing this way yet.
I think the game is a big step in the right direction for anime games but could be even better. I want to see this game and other titles thrive. Thank you for understanding that I only have the game’s best interest at heart.
FINALLY someone says that super counter shouldn’t be vanish-able. it makes absolutely zero sense that super counter is the hardest defensive option to execute but the counter to that is the Vanish AKA the FREE-EST defense option in the game. That dude spit the entire video. finally some conversations around this game that aren’t in bad faith or foolishness.
Very well made video! Much love my man 🙏🏽❤️ tips for super counters is to pay attention to the back of your player model and input when u see a fist or kick go through your body a tad bit , And ANTICIPATING their attacks!! Love y’all take care 💕
25:08-25:38 I've been making sure to mention this anytime the game's mechanics get brought up so thanks for bringing this up. It's BAFFLING that people automatically act like taking issue with perception in it's current state is a "skill issue" when the most readily available "counters" to it just DO NOT WORK because mashing block during it is allowed and stops the counterplay. Not to mention you can mash perception to autocorrect yourself which prevents sidesteps from being a counter as well. Like who cares about what was said about "balance" when the game doesn't even follow it's own rules at times?
I think super counters should have their own skill meter right below the main skill meter. It should be set to 2 or 3. And have it regenerate the same way that the regular meter does. This would solve the spamming of super countering , while also offering a mechanic to be able to get out of a super long combo 👍🙌
Do we really another recource to keep in mind? I think it would be better to merge together super counter and revenge counter. Delete super counter and buff revenge counter so it can be used at will (and way more consistent) but it costs a skillpoint. This would also cause people to think twice about using their skillpoints for afterimage and instant sparking
Making SC more accessible and counting ressources is EXACTLY what revenge counters should do! It's the perfect combo breaker. Make it usable from behind, (you still have the no guard and damage advantage from behind) and make the damage scalling higher, rhe skill count generation slower and BOOM you have solved the SC issue AND the instant sparking issue ti some extent at the same time. Revenge counter having it's niche place and uses doesn't mean we need another counter...
There was a get off me mechanic in BT3, and it used health as the resource. This combined with BT3 super counter was perfect. SC needs the tweak suggested here. Great vid!
I think they should honestly scrap that input and make revenge counters be the way out of combos since revenge counter really serves no purpose, and it cost skill counter
Yeah but you can still get countered when using it, they still can recover quick enough to react and in the end you lose 2 blast stocks and still come out negative. It's really not that good at all.
@xBlackOutx21 100% but I feel like making revenge counter supplement and fill the role of what super counter is would make sense, at least to me. Getting out of combos should come at a cost but also be a more consistent mechanic rather than what super counter is. May not be a perfect solution but it's a start
@@xBlackOutx21 Its like that with most combo breakers in traditional fighting games. In Guilty Gear if you are trying to predict your opponent will use a combo breaker, you will purposely drop your combo and risk losing your momentum to block/counter it. That's what we call depth
In a game with such strong defense, it's kinda crazy that the revenge counter feels so underpowered if that makes sense? -costs two skill gauge (not too big an issue given how fast you get them in a match, but that is still an important resource) -fairly easy to react to with it'ssound cue and slowdown, especially with modern having a one button perception. -doesn't work from behind making super counter or a possible z vanish your only way out of backshots. -MINUS ON HIT?? like the number of times I've seen people eat the counter and immediately just go back to comboing is insane. Bare minimum. I'd want it to reset neutral, at least if not just grant a heavy smash stun.
I'm glad someone's pushing back against some of the more outlandish stuff like super counters. I can't get them off because opponents tend to turn me around then combo me to death, happens in ranked and the super level cpu does it too. They need to make it so when you get turned around, you can still vanish attacks, then change super counter AND change basic damage output so a dropped combo isn't dealing just shy of a full bar (and fix the super level cpu but that's another story)
I actually love that we have so many defensive options in this game. My only problem is how free Super Counter is right now. I think the proposal Vox gave is an excellent way to deal with it. Either make SC a combo breaker reset or make vanish cost 1 ki bar and SC half a bar. Grand Hawk Master's idea is nice too.
I said it before, but I think Super Counter should cost half a bar, but remain the same. I feel it would make managing ki more important and make going for ki break more relevant imo Edit: didnt know this was already touched on in the video around the 7:50 mark and vanish wars are uninteresting after the first 2 times so speeding them up would make it very hype
In my opinion: Revenge counter & Super counter should just be 1 Counter & it should cost 1 Skill meter ( it helps keep your skill meter low, that way allot of folks cannot spam instant spark, after image strike ect ect Vanish war should be speed up after every vanish Perception should not be spammable Anyone that use instant spark or full power should have like "ki sickness" as a punish Besides that this game is just goated🔥🔥🔥
@@Isagi35so? thats on you to mix in grabs and ki blasts, someone spamming perception is begging for a grab or ki blast into comboes. Perception spam is extremely punishable when youre focused, it has proper counterplay. All due respect please dont show up in actual arguments on mechanics like super counters and just saying irrelevant stuff clearly exposing yourself as a mash square C rank player, youre just muddying the discussions. Keep it focused on actual important shit
I'm in the opinion that super counter should be more high risk high reward. Change it to a 2-1 frame window not a 4 frame window. Super Counter should also have a very long cooldown to match said high risk high reward, shouldn't be able to mash whenever. If it were to take ki, that's already another ki waster. Dashes already take up a lot if you are trying to stop opponents from getting more ki. But vanishes should cost 1 bar just like the old BT3 which didn't make sense to me why the resource cost became so tiny.
@@imnotblindbutiloveblindfol8449 that's why i said make the cooldown longer so that mashing cannot happen, it should be a move that cost no ki for a high risk high reward. I ain't trying to lose a vanish war and get punished further by the opponent insta sparking or them having ki advantage
@Oooh yeah. That makes total sense. I fought a dude last night who literally spammed ki blasts, perception, and super counter and ran away until time was up lol. Game is WAY too defensive
I believe in BT3 every character could do something like an explosive wave in exchange for a full health bar with the shoulder buttons. I would reduce the health loss to a 1/4 bar so it’s available at almost all times, and remove super counters entirely. It’s a guaranteed reset to neutral and you’re not forced to sacrifice your skill gauge, but it makes it so if you’re spamming it you’re gonna be at a massive health disadvantage
@@Clayvillain17 it is if you're getting combo'd past 20 hits I believe as you take less health when doing the combo breaker vs under 20 hits and it takes a lot more, I really like the mechanic in theory but I never use it cause its against cpus mostly which don't do long combo strings like an actual player would do.
I mean bt3 also had super counters. I think revenge counters should be reworked so they're not so exploitable and cheaper. Super counter doesn't need to be removed, it's a good level of skill echeck.
Should really talk about the sparking mode ki blast where you get locked in guard, as well as the dragon dash up and down spam that hasn't been patched
If any changes were to be made after hearing the entire video I’d agree with taking out super counters and buffing revenge counter to work even when back turned. You could maybe make revenge counters, while getting punched in the face cost 1 Skill Count while taking backshots should cost 2 Skill Count. For vanish wars, decreasing the window for the vanish after each use, or making it cost more Ki after each use would work. If you were to do an Impact Clash it could work, but only if you made the animation result in a hard reset to neutral (I personally would like to see one like how they did in Budokai 3 if defense wins on the 2 round of the Dragon Rush). Edit: what if there was a fatigue gauge that functions like it did on Budokai 3? The more you vanish, take damage, sonic sway, perception, you gain fatigue. If this fatigue gauge fills, your character is burnt out, needing time to recover (recovery time decreasing with a rapid button input). The main ways to decrease your fatigue gauge mid fight would be either to transform, utilize a buff skill, or begin/maintain offense.
I hate I didn't come out with my video first. I noticed this day 2 of playing the game. I think most people don't believe that people are going to git gud at super counters. Its like the dark souls parry issue. If you git gud at parrying, it trivializes many enemies. The game has only been out for around a month or less, the more people play, the more people there are going to be that are godlike at super counters. At that point, it is impossible to use any rush attack against them. On one hand, unlike 2d fighters where without that one combo breaker move, you get tapped and have to put the controller down because there's nothing to do, I do like the multiple defensive options, but vanish and supercounter are too strong with them being the only options to each other. Personally i would like to see the ability to at bare minimum, choose not to follow behind them with the hit attack, so one can vanish away somewhere instead of the follow up hit. Thats bare minimum. Two super counters either need a higher resource or some way to mix it, or some attacks like charged attacsk have higher priority so you can't just btfo the melee part of the game.
Always like the way you execute your discussion videos, great points🙏🏾 coming from 2D FGs perspectives, I also wish they’d put more emphasis on risk/rewards and even RPS situations that are more balanced and less repetitive
@LotusAsakura doesn't matter atp, I'm sure the problems will be fixed in do time. And when they do I hope all y'all ready to defend your rank. Cuz I'm coming for the 👑
@LotusAsakura perception, z vanish wars, revenge counter being so garbage, countering the revenge counter using 2 bars & then they can revenge counter the counter & use up all your stocks for countering them. Essentially getting punished for being good. Compared to super counter which you can't pull off consistently.
I really like the idea of super counter resetting to neutral. Do that and give it a small cost (half a bar/1 bar) in additio nto adjusting the cost of ki in vanish wars. These mechanics are cool the first time you pull them off, then become dry and boring so I think the many suggestions here would help!
Just limit the number of times a vanish can happen per interaction. Each player gets 2-3 vanishes per interaction. This gives the attacker the advantage because he gets the last turn, forcing the defender to resort to using a Super Counter because he expended all his vanishes. Or make it so that after 2-3 vanishes, you no longer auto strike the opponent. Vanishes would be more interesting if you could choose what action you did after reappearing.
Hey Lotus, just wanted to say I loved the video and this discussion was awesome and covered pretty much everything I've thought myself about how ridiculous the defense is in this game specifically super counter in this case. I also wanted to throw in that imo the community could potentially hurt the game in terms of these mechanics being tweeked due to so many people still having those rose tinted glasses on cause Sparking Zero is the game we've waited for, for so long and those same people refuse to accept and admit the game clearly has problems
my main issue with so many counters. When you beat someone with an energy blast or two. “your spamming !” Like bro just because i dont wanna be comboing 100% of the time.
this conversation is so frustrating bc ppl think you're just complaining about the game, when in reality you're pointing out its flaws and just want the game to be the best version of itself that it can be. Unbalanced characters are NOT the same as unbalanced/broken mechanics. i'd even like to add on that i think ki blast damage should be reduced bc there's no way reason i can do an entire full combo on you and all you have to do is spam ki blasts on me to get me to the same amount of hp or less. the game is frustrating and disappointing BECAUSE it has so much untapped potential to truly be the best dragon ball game of all time. but majority of the community just wants to keep their boring broken playstyles bc it's the only way they'll actually be able to compete. it's sad how they don't want the game to grow
This exactly. You deadass cannot have any constructive criticism for the game because a bunch of brainrotted mouth breathing NPCs will ramble off the same nonsense about something being a skill issue or how some article talked about how "balance" isn't a focus and how that means the game shouldn't be improved. Nuance is dead and these idiots continue to kill it.
Mortal Kombat 11 Had a similar Problem with Flawless Blocking. 90% of players couldn’t do it. But if you can. You could Steal your turn back while - on block or if you knew the Combo Gaps. you got a full combo after.
The reason why super counter is so easy to pull off in this game is because infinite combos in sparking mode does way more damage in this game than bt3. 50+ hits in bt3 with ssj4 gogeta only does 10k damage at most whereas 20+ hits with raditz does 20k+ in SZ. If it was frame 1 like bt3 matches would end in literal seconds because of how insane the damage is in SZ. Nerfing damage would be the best option if they make super counter frame 1 again (or bring back emergency blaster wave from bt3 + make revenge counter work for backshots). Edit:btw giants don’t have perception so they rely on super counter way more hence it’s better to make it easier to perform.
Yeah nah, I share the exact same sentiments and logic as Dom. Those changes he proposed are fire. Super counter needs to cost something, but it can't in any way cost more or the same at vanishes unless it resets neutral or wins the interaction, preferably reset neutral
I still have issues landing super counters with how inconsistent the timing feels online. Like, I've seen the guides from people like Tymier and used their advice to get pretty consistent at landing super counters, even back to back... against the CPU. As soon as I try to take that practice into any online mode, it varies like crazy. I'll get some matches where it seems fine and I'm landing them about as well as I do offline, and others where I miss counter after counter and it just starts to feel like complete RNG.
I genuinely think that either the speed at which you generate blast stocks (skill points) should be halved OR the cost of all skills should be doubled. I personally lean towards the cost of all skills being doubled would be better specifically because things like Super Perception do cost 1 skill point, plus mechanics like Revenge Counter already take 2 and it's clear they want players to use that to break out of combos, Super Counter should definitely be adjusted so it's not possible to just spam the input and get it eventually but I do think that the blast stocks are the REAL issue putting pressure on the Counter System.
What if they made it so the first vanish costs ki, but any consecutive vanish is free? That way vanish wars could go on until one player messes up. I think vanish wars are one of the most fun parts of the game. One thing I don't like, and which I fear will cause the game to change for the worse, is the attitude and complaints coming from pros/high level players. The developers specifically said that fighterz was for highly skilled pro level play, kakarot was for the story experience, and sparking zero is for accurately representing the action of the show. This game is not meant to be played in the way yall are trying to play it. Just have fun with the virtual action figures they've made for us and stop complaining about the rules of the game that you decided to play
Can we get an episode about perception and things yall would do to make that better? I think perception is good but is still a bit strong. It takes a lot of the guessing out of mix ups. -I love the ideas about super counter!
Tenkaichi 3. Doing CPU vs CPU battles the opponents got into vanish wars constantly and it never got old to see for me. That is the best thing about DB games for me.
Yeah I definitely feel like the DP battles go on for so long. Not just because the vanish wars and the Super Counters, but also because super attacks (not Sparking Ultimates) lose their place in fights when you get better at the game. You can't launch someone and then super right after because they'll vanish it mid-launch animation and you've wasted 3+ Ki bars on an attack that missed (even in this video, the only supers that hit were because the target was caught in a rare animation lock--trying to end or set up a combo to hit one just doesn't work). Any one of these mechanics isn't an issue on its own I don't think, but when you have ALL of these mechanics punishing/negating combos and supers, in addition to heal switching, in addition to healing skills... how tf is anyone supposed to die in this game? Either spam unblockables or get un/lucky with SC spam rng. It's ridiculous.
My biggest issue is that vanishes go on for so long. I think after 4-5 loops it should just return players to neutral or force them into an action command minigame.
What’s funny about revenge counter. The player who uses it and gets it off can still get punished for using it after successfully landing the punch. Idk what it is but the opponent can just mash attack and keep hitting you after landing it.
It's 4 frames. Hardly controversial. Especially when you factor in every characters 4 frames start at different movements and spots because most characters hav different attacks. Most can't even do one let alone a full back and forth lol. Maybe when everyone does a full ki loss of super counters like vanishes are right now. People will only find more issues if you make it have more cost. Not to mention a sparking combo lasts forever as it is. So cutting down the ability to use it, will only kill any possibility of useful comebacks. We already have multiple TODs. Especially when manual sparking and immediate sparking exist. Don't even notice every example of a fix is just from a traditional fighter. Not using other arena fighter's kinda makes the issue seem like "just make this a traditional fighter ". I'd argue vanish wars are much more detrimental than super counter. It's not lab needed to vanish at all. It's 1 button. Let's be real. An 3 to 4 super counters back to back isn't remotely close to the 40+ vanishes you see that last 2+ mins. They aren't the same in execution nor skill to say we'll have the same problems.
This game has a few issues, this isn't one of them. I main nappa along with piccolo. When people know how to super counter, it adds flavor to the match. You have to think and operate differently. Forcing you to modify your strategy as you play. Honestly, it's better if you cover the spammers, sparking and after image abusers, rather than trying to "fix" the best defensive option players have against assaults, especially when the opponent is in sparking pulling off 100 hit combos.
Exactly. Like, what do they even want? To remove super counter and just allow everyone to onetap his opponent if they can active Sparking mode first? It’s way more obnoxious in DP battles that low dp characters activate afterimage strike and by the time it runs out they can activate it again. You being able to hit them literally depends on them forgetting that they have enough skill counter
I try to time the super counter every time I never mash it and I think it’s a pride thing. But some nights I can hit what feels like every counter I go for, but other nights I can’t get a single one and I get pieced tf up and while it is frustrating at times it adds a lot of variety to my games which is fun
I think another thing that people gloss over is lag. The lag in this game can be downright unplayable. I personally think that the super counter should cost something, but depending on the lag, the window to perform should be widened in my opinion the compensate.
I’m a casual so I don’t run into too many masters of super counter. I would imagine for every game, the minute you reach those Z rank, tier 1, 10,000 hour super gamers, they’re going to exploit the mechanics of the game.
Super counter should take skill points (maybe 2), it forces the players to manage their skill point counter & could help from ppl spamming things like insta sparks. I think vanish wars should take up more ki to lessen the duration, this would also lessen how much skill points you get from vanish wars & if they make insta sparks take 4 points instead of 3 it would make ppl have to work for it instead of cheesing the ability. This would make the game a bit more fair & skill based rather than cheese based imo
I think super counter should not just have an auto launching attack with it, in addition to that it should have a tighter windown of excecution and be less forgiving, the game runs on 60fps, so it should be about 30-40 frames of cooldown where if u press super counter again the cooldown resets. 4 frames of grace to input a ressourceless combo breaker is a big amount but on a 60 fps game its not much, still i think reducing the windown by 1 or 2 frames is fair. Lastly back to my first point, super counter should just steal the turn for whoever did the super counter, but having an automatic attack follow up that is easily vanishable sucks because its always super counter into vanish war. The automatic hit should be removed or at least have the option to not go through with it
I also think CLANKING (where you get the ripple animation) can be a bit weird and could be adjusted for charged attacks. I do a lot of charged attacks, and I noticed that if a normal square press collides with a full charged smash, it clanks and you get that ripple animation, then I’m in more lag from the smash and they can keep mashing square or vanish at anytime behind you. Anyone else notice this???! Charged melee should beat normal melee no, or at least put both players into the mini game? Maybe it’s just me
Lotus, host a lobby, ban Super Counter, and instead everyone should use characters with Explosive Wave. Try it out and see how the gameplay flows. I promise you it'll be so much more fun. I understand that the flip side of that is it limits your character choices, but just do it as an experiment.
I think that super counter should cost 2 ki while in hitstun but is free otherwise OR super counter remains free but if you're being hit from behind it is only accessible after the 5th rush hit (the one that pushes you back and you can step in to continue, or do the rush finisher.)
They should've kept the same energy for defense cost like they had in Jump Force. Super counters would've been out here costing 3 skill points or 3 bars of ki.
i really miss BT3 combo breaker mechanic. you sacrifice half an hp bar for an explosive wave. make the dodge vanish (rb) and the explosive wave like in BT3 and i think offense/defense is balanced. the rb is a timer thing (but doesnt do a hit after it just resets to neutral) or explosive wave uses hp but gets you out
I think people mention that you want infinite combos because if you remove a difficult, but free cost, counter, than yes, *technically* that would be the only way to make an infinite combos chain ToD whatever, possible. Not that it's a good argument, but I don't think adding cost is the answer, maybe some difficulty curve like Vox mentioned.
Agree....id say have it cost something. Like attach it to the skill meter. That way it gives players a choice. Use resources for afterimage and sparking..or use for combo breaker. Have it cost 3 skill bars.
I think super counter should just return to neutral. Kinda like when you direction block a heavy. And accounted should have the option to attack or not like when you teleport mid combo, then I think it’d be fine
Vanish wars should increase in speed and z counters should cost something not free, maybe keep the windows the same because you can practice it and get better. Revenge counter is awesome for cheeses especially continuous ki blasts but the cost being 2 is risky. Revenge counter should be buffed a lil especially for 2 skills
Leave Super Counter as is since that is the ONLY Defense Technique that works against back & side attacks. If anything, only remove it's use from the front so that Revenge Counter & Perception being the main tools for front attacks. With that said increasing the Ki Cost of Vanish to reduce the "Vanish War" chains & increase the Stopping Power of Super Counter against Vanish Attacks while allowing the use of Revenge Counter & Super Perception during Vanishing.
This isnt really relevant to Super Counters but the game in general but in my eyes. The devs said they weren't gonna make this a balanced game which is fine, but they should've added more PvE content into the game so that we're not limited to play PvP. Coz once you complete Episode Battles, you have Custom Battles (which are cool but a lot of them are just fight the same character once or twice and thats it) or you jump into PvP. But we know the game isn't balanced so it pushes people away from PvP. What they should do is create monthly raids where we can get into a squad and fight a raid boss tag team style. The more people in the squad, the harder the boss will be. How about a time rush mode similar to the Korin's Tower mode in Budokai Tenkaichi 2 where there's a theme of characters like Movie Bosses and you go through fighting each movie boss and try get the fastest clear time. Dont get me wrong, I still love the game and I haven't has this much fun in a while but I was expecting a little bit more offline content so me and my friends can just vibe
I’d say it should cost 1 skill to use super counter but it knocks the opponent back to the neutral stance like at the beginning of the match and revenge counter be more of a true knock back since it cost 2 skill points to use.
My only problem with this game its the imput lag in online matches. Feels like I am playing in slow motion, and it doesn't come from my internet. They really need to address this, its unplayable
I might be remembering this wrong but the bt3 revenge counter (it wasn't the same thing but it was the combo escape where you pressed L1 twice) used to work if you got hit from behind. If anyone knows if that's not how it was let me know but I was wondering what people think about this as an idea in this game. Would it be better, would it be an alternative to being able to mash super counter during rush combos, would it just be pointless since it can be countered with perception? I personally think super counter spamming during rush attacks is kinda bad since there's no cost or risk and I wouldn't mind if you could only super counter moves that you could vanish like heavy attacks, obviously not including super attacks.
Maybe I'm too low level in ranked but super counter seems fine to me. In fact, I'd make it easier to pull off but there's needs to be a way to counter super counters. Perception and vanishing seem like more of an issue to me. Perception is just too easy to pull off. Vanishing would be cooler if in vanish wars, the timing gets harder and harder the further you get into a vanish war. I also despise that super counters are the only way to get out of back shots. I'd add another vanish type defense that works like substitutions in the naruto storm games. I.e. a limited amount of substitutions that refill slowly over time.
I wouldn't say I mash it..although I do.. kind of.. I basically try to time it to the combo the character is doing... like with Broly I go slower when compared to Gogeta where I'm basically mashing
I don’t mind them adding more frames but I feel they should make it easier to do if your do tht or tie it to a skill bar,simply put press up+1 you lose a skill bar n get out
So replying while watching but what if they were to make super counter cost 2 skill bars and revenge counter cost half a ki bar, cause u can punish revenge counter cost
23:27 this quote is why vegito blue is more broken than Super vegito cause afterimage is realy good at low level but at high level its useless again sparking mode but vegito blue as good atk , a skill that full is ki and also 4 follow up after projections + 2 rush hit and ○ so 7 attack in total for 12k dmg
Guys, Super Counters should cost 1 skill point, not ki. Right now Skill points are being hoarded for character specific skills. There's literally no decision making or risk/reward when it comes to skill point management. For crying out loud how does no one see this???
Yea especially when skill points are gained pretty fast during vanish wars, I’d actually argue super counter should takes 2 skill points 1 might not be enough & it could help with ppl spamming insta sparks if they’re sacrificing their skill points to pull off a super counter
This is what makes no sense to me. Revenge counters cost SP and can be very unreliable in a lot of situations, but z counters cost nothing and gets you out of situations that even revenge counters cant reliably get you out of it makes no sense. I also think it's very stupid someone who is not even facing you and being combod can press a button and get a get out of jail free card.
Yes it is. It needs to take ki or have some sort of limitation to the amount of times you can use it in a row. Being able to counter anything nonstop at any time makes combos in this game useless. Can’t combo at all if they just super counter the moment they get hit
What if it cost a chunk of health to do? I think this way it encourages people to try and vanish the smash attack instead of spam up square during the rush
Nothing wrong with Super counters. It takes skill most of the time and is really good for vanish wars. What they can do is increase the frames from 12-24-34 or sum because people do spam and get lucky in combos/z rush. Being threatened by someone using it 4 times to stop vanish wars is really just a huge skill gap issue. You fell victim to his conquers the moment you saw the skill gap. I'm very good at super counters but i can't do that. The only thing i woupd get rid of is perception because perception is a joke and should use 2 ki bars for a use or even a single skill counter. This alone would fix the game, by depower Perception merchants.
When I played the first 2 days I was getting whooped but I realized I needed to focus on improving defense. I told myself that I would watch and listen to all the defensive mechanics once the game got more known and it absolutely turned me off. I'm still glad this game exists but my interest in participating and learning this game is no longer there.
nah game mechanics are fine they just need to be more fleshed out, like DP cost changes, ki building needs to be changed, instant sparking needs to be toned down, sword characters need to be fixed.
I cant disagree with this hard enough. Not only is is hard to execute but the horrible latency online and general unresponsiveness makes it even more difficult. I think it should either no longer send people flying and just stun them like a trip attack does or like vox said it souldnt be vanishable.
❤
Love your stuff.
learned a lot from you🙏
I will super counter super counters consistently instead of even attempting vanish war there are high levels pc players they won’t go into vanish wars for the super counter war instead
i feel like yall are looking at the wrong problem. 99% of people can’t do super counters on accident let alone spam them. The most i did consecutively on purpose was 3; it’s really a skill diff. The real problem is the vanishing, that’s the only thing people are really consistently spamming. You could count on one hand how many times somebody super counters in a match. you get a vanish war in almost every exchange unless yall have no ki
They go hand in hand. They both need adjustments in my opinion. We talk about it if you make it to the end of the video.
Another idea is changing the z-counter vanish type so if you vanish a super counter you end up behind but without the attack, ideally this specific vanish would place both people at plus 0 neutral, but the person who throws the super counter is back turned and therefore disadvantaged and can’t attack first. this gets rid of the need for vanish wars after a super counter, and super counter wars which i’ve been seeing in high level play.
I haven't watched the whole thing yet but I got to the part where you mentioned me etc. Thank you for the shout-out. I'll try to check back here frequently if anyone has any questions. And I wasn't subbed to you before, I've subbed now. Cheers.
I greatly appreciate your insight on the game! Might have to get in contact with you personally soon ~
@@LotusAsakura ✌💙 Always happy to help.
I have one! What's the macro you all use to get frame perfect counters and vanishes?
@@_Gorthax None! : D
Oh and how do you feel about the siezure tactics where you stand still and hold block while spamming perception cancer that EVERYONE is doing but me?
I think a good way to solve super counters is to just make it to where if you vanish the super counter it’s a regular vanish not a counter attack.
Also give the person that did the super counter enough frames to turn around and do perception, block or sonic sway. That way it’s not guaranteed backshots. This would also end 90% of vanish wars
Glad yall spoke on how easy it is to break free from throws while using perception. And it doesn’t help how simple it is to tech throws in this game. I literally could have someone mid throw animation & all they have to do is press a button to cancel it
I was playing perfect cell, and I was in the animation of throwing someone, and he somehow broke through it. I almost gave up on the game. Defense is just too powerful. You gotta use an op character, especially if you don't know how to super counter.
I just want to say, I am loving the enthusiasm surrounding talking about aspects of the game. Giving criticism where its warranted, showing multiple perspectives, covering different topics in different vids. I feel this shows the passion for the game I wanted to see from the community and honestly from myself. I feel passionate for the game but I'm not expressing this way yet.
Hey Lotus, thank you for actually being critical of the game in a healthy and respectful way. It's clear you want the game to improve.
I think the game is a big step in the right direction for anime games but could be even better. I want to see this game and other titles thrive. Thank you for understanding that I only have the game’s best interest at heart.
FINALLY someone says that super counter shouldn’t be vanish-able. it makes absolutely zero sense that super counter is the hardest defensive option to execute but the counter to that is the Vanish AKA the FREE-EST defense option in the game.
That dude spit the entire video. finally some conversations around this game that aren’t in bad faith or foolishness.
Very well made video! Much love my man 🙏🏽❤️ tips for super counters is to pay attention to the back of your player model and input when u see a fist or kick go through your body a tad bit ,
And ANTICIPATING their attacks!!
Love y’all take care 💕
25:08-25:38 I've been making sure to mention this anytime the game's mechanics get brought up so thanks for bringing this up. It's BAFFLING that people automatically act like taking issue with perception in it's current state is a "skill issue" when the most readily available "counters" to it just DO NOT WORK because mashing block during it is allowed and stops the counterplay. Not to mention you can mash perception to autocorrect yourself which prevents sidesteps from being a counter as well. Like who cares about what was said about "balance" when the game doesn't even follow it's own rules at times?
I think super counters should have their own skill meter right below the main skill meter. It should be set to 2 or 3. And have it regenerate the same way that the regular meter does. This would solve the spamming of super countering , while also offering a mechanic to be able to get out of a super long combo 👍🙌
It still should not be spammed, but this isn’t a bad idea too 🤔
Do we really another recource to keep in mind? I think it would be better to merge together super counter and revenge counter. Delete super counter and buff revenge counter so it can be used at will (and way more consistent) but it costs a skillpoint. This would also cause people to think twice about using their skillpoints for afterimage and instant sparking
Making SC more accessible and counting ressources is EXACTLY what revenge counters should do!
It's the perfect combo breaker. Make it usable from behind, (you still have the no guard and damage advantage from behind) and make the damage scalling higher, rhe skill count generation slower and BOOM you have solved the SC issue AND the instant sparking issue ti some extent at the same time.
Revenge counter having it's niche place and uses doesn't mean we need another counter...
There was a get off me mechanic in BT3, and it used health as the resource. This combined with BT3 super counter was perfect. SC needs the tweak suggested here. Great vid!
I think they should honestly scrap that input and make revenge counters be the way out of combos since revenge counter really serves no purpose, and it cost skill counter
This, all the way.
Yeah but you can still get countered when using it, they still can recover quick enough to react and in the end you lose 2 blast stocks and still come out negative. It's really not that good at all.
@xBlackOutx21 100% but I feel like making revenge counter supplement and fill the role of what super counter is would make sense, at least to me. Getting out of combos should come at a cost but also be a more consistent mechanic rather than what super counter is. May not be a perfect solution but it's a start
@@xBlackOutx21 Its like that with most combo breakers in traditional fighting games. In Guilty Gear if you are trying to predict your opponent will use a combo breaker, you will purposely drop your combo and risk losing your momentum to block/counter it. That's what we call depth
huh?
revenge counter doesnt have purpose?
maybe you just dont know when to use it
In a game with such strong defense, it's kinda crazy that the revenge counter feels so underpowered if that makes sense?
-costs two skill gauge (not too big an issue given how fast you get them in a match, but that is still an important resource)
-fairly easy to react to with it'ssound cue and slowdown, especially with modern having a one button perception.
-doesn't work from behind making super counter or a possible z vanish your only way out of backshots.
-MINUS ON HIT?? like the number of times I've seen people eat the counter and immediately just go back to comboing is insane. Bare minimum. I'd want it to reset neutral, at least if not just grant a heavy smash stun.
I'm glad someone's pushing back against some of the more outlandish stuff like super counters.
I can't get them off because opponents tend to turn me around then combo me to death, happens in ranked and the super level cpu does it too.
They need to make it so when you get turned around, you can still vanish attacks, then change super counter AND change basic damage output so a dropped combo isn't dealing just shy of a full bar (and fix the super level cpu but that's another story)
I actually love that we have so many defensive options in this game. My only problem is how free Super Counter is right now. I think the proposal Vox gave is an excellent way to deal with it. Either make SC a combo breaker reset or make vanish cost 1 ki bar and SC half a bar. Grand Hawk Master's idea is nice too.
I said it before, but I think Super Counter should cost half a bar, but remain the same. I feel it would make managing ki more important and make going for ki break more relevant imo
Edit: didnt know this was already touched on in the video around the 7:50 mark and vanish wars are uninteresting after the first 2 times so speeding them up would make it very hype
In my opinion:
Revenge counter & Super counter should just be 1 Counter & it should cost 1 Skill meter ( it helps keep your skill meter low, that way allot of folks cannot spam instant spark, after image strike ect ect
Vanish war should be speed up after every vanish
Perception should not be spammable
Anyone that use instant spark or full power should have like "ki sickness" as a punish
Besides that this game is just goated🔥🔥🔥
I’d like to see ki sickness after everytime someone goes into sparking mode. Not only when they use instant spark
Really thought we was getting a perception rant tbh
If you have a problem with prescription ur doomed
If you watch long enough we touch on it lol
Perception is NOT bad
@@YoItzTreyyythe spamming make it bad bc when u step to get behind n the defender spams block n perception the defender will turn which is bad af
@@Isagi35so? thats on you to mix in grabs and ki blasts, someone spamming perception is begging for a grab or ki blast into comboes.
Perception spam is extremely punishable when youre focused, it has proper counterplay. All due respect please dont show up in actual arguments on mechanics like super counters and just saying irrelevant stuff clearly exposing yourself as a mash square C rank player, youre just muddying the discussions. Keep it focused on actual important shit
I'm in the opinion that super counter should be more high risk high reward. Change it to a 2-1 frame window not a 4 frame window. Super Counter should also have a very long cooldown to match said high risk high reward, shouldn't be able to mash whenever. If it were to take ki, that's already another ki waster. Dashes already take up a lot if you are trying to stop opponents from getting more ki. But vanishes should cost 1 bar just like the old BT3 which didn't make sense to me why the resource cost became so tiny.
I feel you on that 100%. The risk for the defensive options in this game is so low lol.
It has a 12 frame cooldown if you whiff which is why it’s easier to do if you time it opposed to spamming it. I think it should at least cost ki.
@@imnotblindbutiloveblindfol8449 that's why i said make the cooldown longer so that mashing cannot happen, it should be a move that cost no ki for a high risk high reward. I ain't trying to lose a vanish war and get punished further by the opponent insta sparking or them having ki advantage
@Oooh yeah. That makes total sense. I fought a dude last night who literally spammed ki blasts, perception, and super counter and ran away until time was up lol. Game is WAY too defensive
Give it a 30 second cooldown if you get outplayed you deserve to get benched from the controls and forced to use revenge counter
I believe in BT3 every character could do something like an explosive wave in exchange for a full health bar with the shoulder buttons. I would reduce the health loss to a 1/4 bar so it’s available at almost all times, and remove super counters entirely. It’s a guaranteed reset to neutral and you’re not forced to sacrifice your skill gauge, but it makes it so if you’re spamming it you’re gonna be at a massive health disadvantage
Completely forgot about this mechanic
@@Clayvillain17 it is if you're getting combo'd past 20 hits I believe as you take less health when doing the combo breaker vs under 20 hits and it takes a lot more, I really like the mechanic in theory but I never use it cause its against cpus mostly which don't do long combo strings like an actual player would do.
I mean bt3 also had super counters. I think revenge counters should be reworked so they're not so exploitable and cheaper. Super counter doesn't need to be removed, it's a good level of skill echeck.
@ as it stands it’s not a skill check at all
The way stocks build so fast when you’re getting whooped it should be tied to stocks
Should really talk about the sparking mode ki blast where you get locked in guard, as well as the dragon dash up and down spam that hasn't been patched
Start by making Revenge Counter better, it costs resources afterall.
If any changes were to be made after hearing the entire video I’d agree with taking out super counters and buffing revenge counter to work even when back turned. You could maybe make revenge counters, while getting punched in the face cost 1 Skill Count while taking backshots should cost 2 Skill Count.
For vanish wars, decreasing the window for the vanish after each use, or making it cost more Ki after each use would work. If you were to do an Impact Clash it could work, but only if you made the animation result in a hard reset to neutral (I personally would like to see one like how they did in Budokai 3 if defense wins on the 2 round of the Dragon Rush).
Edit: what if there was a fatigue gauge that functions like it did on Budokai 3? The more you vanish, take damage, sonic sway, perception, you gain fatigue. If this fatigue gauge fills, your character is burnt out, needing time to recover (recovery time decreasing with a rapid button input). The main ways to decrease your fatigue gauge mid fight would be either to transform, utilize a buff skill, or begin/maintain offense.
I hate I didn't come out with my video first. I noticed this day 2 of playing the game. I think most people don't believe that people are going to git gud at super counters. Its like the dark souls parry issue. If you git gud at parrying, it trivializes many enemies. The game has only been out for around a month or less, the more people play, the more people there are going to be that are godlike at super counters. At that point, it is impossible to use any rush attack against them.
On one hand, unlike 2d fighters where without that one combo breaker move, you get tapped and have to put the controller down because there's nothing to do, I do like the multiple defensive options, but vanish and supercounter are too strong with them being the only options to each other.
Personally i would like to see the ability to at bare minimum, choose not to follow behind them with the hit attack, so one can vanish away somewhere instead of the follow up hit. Thats bare minimum. Two super counters either need a higher resource or some way to mix it, or some attacks like charged attacsk have higher priority so you can't just btfo the melee part of the game.
Always like the way you execute your discussion videos, great points🙏🏾 coming from 2D FGs perspectives, I also wish they’d put more emphasis on risk/rewards and even RPS situations that are more balanced and less repetitive
To many other important problems.
I agree but what problems in specific are you referring to?
@LotusAsakura doesn't matter atp, I'm sure the problems will be fixed in do time.
And when they do I hope all y'all ready to defend your rank. Cuz I'm coming for the 👑
@LotusAsakura perception, z vanish wars, revenge counter being so garbage, countering the revenge counter using 2 bars & then they can revenge counter the counter & use up all your stocks for countering them. Essentially getting punished for being good. Compared to super counter which you can't pull off consistently.
Super Counter is not a problem, the problem is that dosent cost anything, it should cost a skill point, ki or health
I really like the idea of super counter resetting to neutral.
Do that and give it a small cost (half a bar/1 bar) in additio nto adjusting the cost of ki in vanish wars.
These mechanics are cool the first time you pull them off, then become dry and boring so I think the many suggestions here would help!
Just limit the number of times a vanish can happen per interaction. Each player gets 2-3 vanishes per interaction. This gives the attacker the advantage because he gets the last turn, forcing the defender to resort to using a Super Counter because he expended all his vanishes. Or make it so that after 2-3 vanishes, you no longer auto strike the opponent. Vanishes would be more interesting if you could choose what action you did after reappearing.
Hey Lotus, just wanted to say I loved the video and this discussion was awesome and covered pretty much everything I've thought myself about how ridiculous the defense is in this game specifically super counter in this case. I also wanted to throw in that imo the community could potentially hurt the game in terms of these mechanics being tweeked due to so many people still having those rose tinted glasses on cause Sparking Zero is the game we've waited for, for so long and those same people refuse to accept and admit the game clearly has problems
The best thing would be either what he said at 12:15 or to bring back the cooldown if you fail to hit the counter window.
my main issue with so many counters. When you beat someone with an energy blast or two. “your spamming !” Like bro just because i dont wanna be comboing 100% of the time.
this conversation is so frustrating bc ppl think you're just complaining about the game, when in reality you're pointing out its flaws and just want the game to be the best version of itself that it can be. Unbalanced characters are NOT the same as unbalanced/broken mechanics. i'd even like to add on that i think ki blast damage should be reduced bc there's no way reason i can do an entire full combo on you and all you have to do is spam ki blasts on me to get me to the same amount of hp or less. the game is frustrating and disappointing BECAUSE it has so much untapped potential to truly be the best dragon ball game of all time. but majority of the community just wants to keep their boring broken playstyles bc it's the only way they'll actually be able to compete. it's sad how they don't want the game to grow
This exactly. You deadass cannot have any constructive criticism for the game because a bunch of brainrotted mouth breathing NPCs will ramble off the same nonsense about something being a skill issue or how some article talked about how "balance" isn't a focus and how that means the game shouldn't be improved. Nuance is dead and these idiots continue to kill it.
Thank you so much for understanding lol
Maybe if you’d stop believing that revenge counter is useless because your favorite youtuber said so, you wouldn’t have issues with ki blast spammers.
This comment just screams “skill issue”
Mortal Kombat 11 Had a similar Problem with Flawless Blocking. 90% of players couldn’t do it.
But if you can. You could Steal your turn back while - on block or if you knew the Combo Gaps. you got a full combo after.
The reason why super counter is so easy to pull off in this game is because infinite combos in sparking mode does way more damage in this game than bt3. 50+ hits in bt3 with ssj4 gogeta only does 10k damage at most whereas 20+ hits with raditz does 20k+ in SZ. If it was frame 1 like bt3 matches would end in literal seconds because of how insane the damage is in SZ. Nerfing damage would be the best option if they make super counter frame 1 again (or bring back emergency blaster wave from bt3 + make revenge counter work for backshots).
Edit:btw giants don’t have perception so they rely on super counter way more hence it’s better to make it easier to perform.
Yeah nah, I share the exact same sentiments and logic as Dom. Those changes he proposed are fire. Super counter needs to cost something, but it can't in any way cost more or the same at vanishes unless it resets neutral or wins the interaction, preferably reset neutral
I still have issues landing super counters with how inconsistent the timing feels online. Like, I've seen the guides from people like Tymier and used their advice to get pretty consistent at landing super counters, even back to back... against the CPU. As soon as I try to take that practice into any online mode, it varies like crazy. I'll get some matches where it seems fine and I'm landing them about as well as I do offline, and others where I miss counter after counter and it just starts to feel like complete RNG.
I genuinely think that either the speed at which you generate blast stocks (skill points) should be halved OR the cost of all skills should be doubled.
I personally lean towards the cost of all skills being doubled would be better specifically because things like Super Perception do cost 1 skill point, plus mechanics like Revenge Counter already take 2 and it's clear they want players to use that to break out of combos, Super Counter should definitely be adjusted so it's not possible to just spam the input and get it eventually but I do think that the blast stocks are the REAL issue putting pressure on the Counter System.
What if they made it so the first vanish costs ki, but any consecutive vanish is free? That way vanish wars could go on until one player messes up. I think vanish wars are one of the most fun parts of the game.
One thing I don't like, and which I fear will cause the game to change for the worse, is the attitude and complaints coming from pros/high level players. The developers specifically said that fighterz was for highly skilled pro level play, kakarot was for the story experience, and sparking zero is for accurately representing the action of the show. This game is not meant to be played in the way yall are trying to play it. Just have fun with the virtual action figures they've made for us and stop complaining about the rules of the game that you decided to play
A change in defensive skill would work like wild sense being able to be activated on hit
Can we get an episode about perception and things yall would do to make that better? I think perception is good but is still a bit strong. It takes a lot of the guessing out of mix ups. -I love the ideas about super counter!
Tenkaichi 3. Doing CPU vs CPU battles the opponents got into vanish wars constantly and it never got old to see for me. That is the best thing about DB games for me.
Stg ppl crying about the vanish wars are losers 😭
@@iHustlexso people are losers for complaining about the most boring shit to watch and play? Be ffr vanish wars are not fun at all
Yeah I definitely feel like the DP battles go on for so long. Not just because the vanish wars and the Super Counters, but also because super attacks (not Sparking Ultimates) lose their place in fights when you get better at the game. You can't launch someone and then super right after because they'll vanish it mid-launch animation and you've wasted 3+ Ki bars on an attack that missed (even in this video, the only supers that hit were because the target was caught in a rare animation lock--trying to end or set up a combo to hit one just doesn't work).
Any one of these mechanics isn't an issue on its own I don't think, but when you have ALL of these mechanics punishing/negating combos and supers, in addition to heal switching, in addition to healing skills... how tf is anyone supposed to die in this game? Either spam unblockables or get un/lucky with SC spam rng. It's ridiculous.
My biggest issue is that vanishes go on for so long. I think after 4-5 loops it should just return players to neutral or force them into an action command minigame.
Happy Halloween 🎃
I like the idea to be able to get out of a 25 hit combo
What’s funny about revenge counter. The player who uses it and gets it off can still get punished for using it after successfully landing the punch. Idk what it is but the opponent can just mash attack and keep hitting you after landing it.
It's negative on hit and also reactable lol. It kind of sucks in most situations.
It's 4 frames. Hardly controversial. Especially when you factor in every characters 4 frames start at different movements and spots because most characters hav different attacks.
Most can't even do one let alone a full back and forth lol.
Maybe when everyone does a full ki loss of super counters like vanishes are right now.
People will only find more issues if you make it have more cost. Not to mention a sparking combo lasts forever as it is. So cutting down the ability to use it, will only kill any possibility of useful comebacks. We already have multiple TODs. Especially when manual sparking and immediate sparking exist.
Don't even notice every example of a fix is just from a traditional fighter. Not using other arena fighter's kinda makes the issue seem like "just make this a traditional fighter ".
I'd argue vanish wars are much more detrimental than super counter. It's not lab needed to vanish at all. It's 1 button. Let's be real. An 3 to 4 super counters back to back isn't remotely close to the 40+ vanishes you see that last 2+ mins. They aren't the same in execution nor skill to say we'll have the same problems.
This game has a few issues, this isn't one of them. I main nappa along with piccolo. When people know how to super counter, it adds flavor to the match. You have to think and operate differently. Forcing you to modify your strategy as you play. Honestly, it's better if you cover the spammers, sparking and after image abusers, rather than trying to "fix" the best defensive option players have against assaults, especially when the opponent is in sparking pulling off 100 hit combos.
Exactly. Like, what do they even want? To remove super counter and just allow everyone to onetap his opponent if they can active Sparking mode first? It’s way more obnoxious in DP battles that low dp characters activate afterimage strike and by the time it runs out they can activate it again. You being able to hit them literally depends on them forgetting that they have enough skill counter
I try to time the super counter every time I never mash it and I think it’s a pride thing. But some nights I can hit what feels like every counter I go for, but other nights I can’t get a single one and I get pieced tf up and while it is frustrating at times it adds a lot of variety to my games which is fun
I think another thing that people gloss over is lag. The lag in this game can be downright unplayable.
I personally think that the super counter should cost something, but depending on the lag, the window to perform should be widened in my opinion the compensate.
I’m a casual so I don’t run into too many masters of super counter. I would imagine for every game, the minute you reach those Z rank, tier 1, 10,000 hour super gamers, they’re going to exploit the mechanics of the game.
Super counter should take skill points (maybe 2), it forces the players to manage their skill point counter & could help from ppl spamming things like insta sparks. I think vanish wars should take up more ki to lessen the duration, this would also lessen how much skill points you get from vanish wars & if they make insta sparks take 4 points instead of 3 it would make ppl have to work for it instead of cheesing the ability. This would make the game a bit more fair & skill based rather than cheese based imo
Should have someone that disagrees for these type of videos too
I think super counter should not just have an auto launching attack with it, in addition to that it should have a tighter windown of excecution and be less forgiving, the game runs on 60fps, so it should be about 30-40 frames of cooldown where if u press super counter again the cooldown resets.
4 frames of grace to input a ressourceless combo breaker is a big amount but on a 60 fps game its not much, still i think reducing the windown by 1 or 2 frames is fair.
Lastly back to my first point, super counter should just steal the turn for whoever did the super counter, but having an automatic attack follow up that is easily vanishable sucks because its always super counter into vanish war.
The automatic hit should be removed or at least have the option to not go through with it
It’s still hard to super counter online
I think vanish wars are way worse than super counters
I also think CLANKING (where you get the ripple animation) can be a bit weird and could be adjusted for charged attacks. I do a lot of charged attacks, and I noticed that if a normal square press collides with a full charged smash, it clanks and you get that ripple animation, then I’m in more lag from the smash and they can keep mashing square or vanish at anytime behind you. Anyone else notice this???! Charged melee should beat normal melee no, or at least put both players into the mini game? Maybe it’s just me
Should def talk to Quada
I’m more upset with these input issues and my character freezing when tagged in and/or after super animation (after it hits)
Lotus, host a lobby, ban Super Counter, and instead everyone should use characters with Explosive Wave.
Try it out and see how the gameplay flows. I promise you it'll be so much more fun.
I understand that the flip side of that is it limits your character choices, but just do it as an experiment.
I think that super counter should cost 2 ki while in hitstun but is free otherwise OR super counter remains free but if you're being hit from behind it is only accessible after the 5th rush hit (the one that pushes you back and you can step in to continue, or do the rush finisher.)
They should've kept the same energy for defense cost like they had in Jump Force. Super counters would've been out here costing 3 skill points or 3 bars of ki.
i really miss BT3 combo breaker mechanic. you sacrifice half an hp bar for an explosive wave. make the dodge vanish (rb) and the explosive wave like in BT3 and i think offense/defense is balanced. the rb is a timer thing (but doesnt do a hit after it just resets to neutral) or explosive wave uses hp but gets you out
I think people mention that you want infinite combos because if you remove a difficult, but free cost, counter, than yes, *technically* that would be the only way to make an infinite combos chain ToD whatever, possible. Not that it's a good argument, but I don't think adding cost is the answer, maybe some difficulty curve like Vox mentioned.
Agree....id say have it cost something. Like attach it to the skill meter. That way it gives players a choice. Use resources for afterimage and sparking..or use for combo breaker. Have it cost 3 skill bars.
REALLY wanna ask, with the current cheese strats in the game (e,g; sparking into ki-blast spam), how do you feel about unblockables in the game atm?
I think super counter should just return to neutral. Kinda like when you direction block a heavy. And accounted should have the option to attack or not like when you teleport mid combo, then I think it’d be fine
Of course another b rank player ranks about something that 90% of the playerbase can’t even use consistently. Hilarious.
In addition to changing super counter, I think they should lower damage across the board. Everyone hits way too hard.
Vanish wars should increase in speed and z counters should cost something not free, maybe keep the windows the same because you can practice it and get better. Revenge counter is awesome for cheeses especially continuous ki blasts but the cost being 2 is risky. Revenge counter should be buffed a lil especially for 2 skills
Vanish wars should be cut off at 2 ki bars and go into a clash (preferably the qte for dash clashes)
Leave Super Counter as is since that is the ONLY Defense Technique that works against back & side attacks. If anything, only remove it's use from the front so that Revenge Counter & Perception being the main tools for front attacks. With that said increasing the Ki Cost of Vanish to reduce the "Vanish War" chains & increase the Stopping Power of Super Counter against Vanish Attacks while allowing the use of Revenge Counter & Super Perception during Vanishing.
This isnt really relevant to Super Counters but the game in general but in my eyes. The devs said they weren't gonna make this a balanced game which is fine, but they should've added more PvE content into the game so that we're not limited to play PvP. Coz once you complete Episode Battles, you have Custom Battles (which are cool but a lot of them are just fight the same character once or twice and thats it) or you jump into PvP. But we know the game isn't balanced so it pushes people away from PvP. What they should do is create monthly raids where we can get into a squad and fight a raid boss tag team style. The more people in the squad, the harder the boss will be. How about a time rush mode similar to the Korin's Tower mode in Budokai Tenkaichi 2 where there's a theme of characters like Movie Bosses and you go through fighting each movie boss and try get the fastest clear time.
Dont get me wrong, I still love the game and I haven't has this much fun in a while but I was expecting a little bit more offline content so me and my friends can just vibe
I’d say it should cost 1 skill to use super counter but it knocks the opponent back to the neutral stance like at the beginning of the match and revenge counter be more of a true knock back since it cost 2 skill points to use.
My only problem with this game its the imput lag in online matches.
Feels like I am playing in slow motion, and it doesn't come from my internet.
They really need to address this, its unplayable
I might be remembering this wrong but the bt3 revenge counter (it wasn't the same thing but it was the combo escape where you pressed L1 twice) used to work if you got hit from behind. If anyone knows if that's not how it was let me know but I was wondering what people think about this as an idea in this game. Would it be better, would it be an alternative to being able to mash super counter during rush combos, would it just be pointless since it can be countered with perception? I personally think super counter spamming during rush attacks is kinda bad since there's no cost or risk and I wouldn't mind if you could only super counter moves that you could vanish like heavy attacks, obviously not including super attacks.
Maybe I'm too low level in ranked but super counter seems fine to me. In fact, I'd make it easier to pull off but there's needs to be a way to counter super counters. Perception and vanishing seem like more of an issue to me. Perception is just too easy to pull off. Vanishing would be cooler if in vanish wars, the timing gets harder and harder the further you get into a vanish war. I also despise that super counters are the only way to get out of back shots. I'd add another vanish type defense that works like substitutions in the naruto storm games. I.e. a limited amount of substitutions that refill slowly over time.
Bring on LifeofRio
I wouldn't mind the storm games system with the subs
You get about 5 and if you runnout you get cooked until they decide to return
I wouldn't say I mash it..although I do.. kind of.. I basically try to time it to the combo the character is doing... like with Broly I go slower when compared to Gogeta where I'm basically mashing
I don’t mind them adding more frames but I feel they should make it easier to do if your do tht or tie it to a skill bar,simply put press up+1 you lose a skill bar n get out
Also would love to share my thoughts on this
So replying while watching but what if they were to make super counter cost 2 skill bars and revenge counter cost half a ki bar, cause u can punish revenge counter cost
23:27 this quote is why vegito blue is more broken than Super vegito cause afterimage is realy good at low level but at high level its useless again sparking mode but vegito blue as good atk , a skill that full is ki and also 4 follow up after projections + 2 rush hit and ○ so 7 attack in total for 12k dmg
Guys, Super Counters should cost 1 skill point, not ki. Right now Skill points are being hoarded for character specific skills. There's literally no decision making or risk/reward when it comes to skill point management.
For crying out loud how does no one see this???
Yea especially when skill points are gained pretty fast during vanish wars, I’d actually argue super counter should takes 2 skill points 1 might not be enough & it could help with ppl spamming insta sparks if they’re sacrificing their skill points to pull off a super counter
I like the idea but, half a bar would be a perfect cost. One is way too high for situations like Sparking auto combo.
This is what makes no sense to me. Revenge counters cost SP and can be very unreliable in a lot of situations, but z counters cost nothing and gets you out of situations that even revenge counters cant reliably get you out of it makes no sense. I also think it's very stupid someone who is not even facing you and being combod can press a button and get a get out of jail free card.
Yes it is. It needs to take ki or have some sort of limitation to the amount of times you can use it in a row. Being able to counter anything nonstop at any time makes combos in this game useless. Can’t combo at all if they just super counter the moment they get hit
What if it cost a chunk of health to do? I think this way it encourages people to try and vanish the smash attack instead of spam up square during the rush
If you ever feel useless remember that revenge counters exist
Especially if they are spamming ki blast from afar
Short answer. Yes.
Makes attacking useless or into a boring ass vanish fight
Nothing wrong with Super counters. It takes skill most of the time and is really good for vanish wars. What they can do is increase the frames from 12-24-34 or sum because people do spam and get lucky in combos/z rush. Being threatened by someone using it 4 times to stop vanish wars is really just a huge skill gap issue. You fell victim to his conquers the moment you saw the skill gap. I'm very good at super counters but i can't do that. The only thing i woupd get rid of is perception because perception is a joke and should use 2 ki bars for a use or even a single skill counter. This alone would fix the game, by depower Perception merchants.
When I played the first 2 days I was getting whooped but I realized I needed to focus on improving defense. I told myself that I would watch and listen to all the defensive mechanics once the game got more known and it absolutely turned me off. I'm still glad this game exists but my interest in participating and learning this game is no longer there.
The window needs to be smaller like in BT3
nah game mechanics are fine they just need to be more fleshed out, like DP cost changes, ki building needs to be changed, instant sparking needs to be toned down, sword characters need to be fixed.
I think vanishing a super counter should cost 1 and a half or 2 bars of ki and super counter should cost half or 1 bar of ki
Have it take a chunk of your health bar. That'll get em to stop spamming lol
I cant disagree with this hard enough. Not only is is hard to execute but the horrible latency online and general unresponsiveness makes it even more difficult. I think it should either no longer send people flying and just stun them like a trip attack does or like vox said it souldnt be vanishable.