Laminated Sides vs Solid Wood vs Double Sides
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2018
- Laminated Sides vs Solid Wood Vs Double Sides determines the value of every guitar. Do you know the difference? Find out what you need to look for when you buy your next guitar.
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The Vintage Yamaha Red Label guitars made in Japan were all Laminated and they sound fantastic. So, the materials used are just one factor of building a great sounding guitar. The skill, techniques and experience of a lutherie play a crucial role in guitar building.
Also many of the early Japanese imports had spruce in all three layers of the laminated tops -- makes a huge difference in sound compared to later imports with some sort of cross grain mahogany like wood in the center layer (which really magnified the more haphazard assembly of later models until automation of some processes began helping the consistency).
This is so cool Mr. Spencer. It is a lot of fun learning about guitar making on your site please keep it coming!
Honestly these videos are so informative. I love them! And again, the quality is soooo great since you got that new camera!
Best video I've seen so far on the topic. Thanks
Lots of good info Randy. Thanks for sharing.
Awesome info for me, I see a lot of time, heart, an pride going into that guitar. Now i know why.
Thanks for sharing!
Nice vid as always. I've learned a lot about guitars from your videos. Keep up the good content🖒🖒
Thank you for sharing the knowledge, sir! Subscribed! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
My guitar teacher showed this to us to learn and it was very helpful. I was able to understand everything, now I can be sure what to be next time at a guitar shop
Thank you for breaking it down well
Thanks Brother Man , I been searching for Info on Sides of an Acoustic. I will be Building My Own soon and a Viola as well. This Video was My Eureka Moment. TY again and GOD BLESS YOU...
Wow, I learnt something valuable today. Very insightful explanations. Subbed.
Keep doing exactly what you're doing. Your videos are special, and I've watched a LOT of luthiery videos.
Thank you sir. I've watched a LOT of those videos as well.
This was no doubt one of the best, and most informative videos, that I’ve seen. After liking it, I subscribed to your channel, and I’m ready to learn ol’ Obi-Wan. Thank you for making this!
Very helpfull in making a choise for a new guitar! Thanks!
Great informative presentation.. the best souding guitar in my collection is laminated but coming apart internally .. now I know why .. thanks
Great video man, I really like it
keep it coming
love the videos
Clever bloke -good upload .Thanks
Nicely explained. Thanks
Thanks for your explain and share your knowledge. .
Great info thanks
excellent and informative video ....thank you
Thanks for the information you are awesome
To think you're giving us all this information for free, no strings attached is just mind-blowing. Hard to find great authentic informative channels like this nowadays. Keep up the great work man!
Thank you for watching!
I learned things I'll need thank you
I just started making ukulele’s a year ago. I am making a baritone ukulele and it has double sides. It is very rigid and kept its shape out of the mold.
Great video👏🏻 Is this the same as a layered back and side guitar Taylor?
Thank you !!!! very useful information , do you still steam bend your sides ? I have just started building flamenco guitars will this process effect the weight ?
Amazing, I don't know if is possible to get some information about top and back...
Well explained.
I think the laminated is great, as long as you use good materials. I've seen lamited with resin with only two layers making a very strong, great sounding guitar.
Very informative
It would be nice to show the process of double siding. I use single sides but with reverse kerfing. They don't hardly move at all and retain shape jost fine outside the mold. I only use the mold for protection from dings and to hold the lice to the worktop after the kerfs have been added. Sorry if you have covered this elsewhere - I only just subscribed. Very clear no-nonsense explanation
thanks a lot for sharing can ya tell us how thick your veneers that your sides are made up with
Great content!!
Question: if maximum rigidity for the sides is optimal, then how much does the type of wood or even solid versus laminate, impact the sound? If it isn't vibrating it would almost seem that there would be a negligible difference.
Also in laminate construction for the back of a guitar, how much does the type of wood used on the outer layers impact the sound!
If the inner layer of laminate was similar would there be a noticeable difference between Rosewood and Mahogany?
Would the timbrel characteristics of those woods still be present in a laminate construction using those tonewoods assuming the top wood was identical?
The famous Spanish luthier of classical guitars Antonio de Torres Jurado. Made a guitar with cardboard back and sides, considered one of the greatest sounding classical guitars of all time and it's in a museum. He's considered the greatest luthier of classical guitars of all time. The back and sides do influence the sound but so slightly compared to the top which is 90% of the Sound. Many classical guitarist prefer a laminated back and sides for Better Sound. I have a Martin dx1 with hpl back and sides and I prefer finger-picking with it over something like an HD 28 which sounds muddy and muffled to me.
hey about about these new composite double top vs traditional soundboards for guitars
How much would adding a brace midway horizontal and longways add to the strength of laminate sides?
Amazing video
Spencer Acoustics how do they get laminated wood so thin build cheap acoustic guitars? When I see plywood at lumber stores its not thin like laminated acoustic guitars. Just wondering?
is double sided guitar referring to the side is made of the same material glued(laminated) together, then with a pre bended solid kerfing strip glued on the inside to build up glueing surface for the top n back?
Thoughts on the Martin sc 13e? Ziricote veneer.. seems bad to me
So, should a laminated sides guitar (laminated with 2 sheets of solid wood) not have any kerfing? It's easy to look inside a guitar and see the kerfing, but you can't tell if it's laminated or not unless the specs say so.
Very interesting.
What would happen if you put inside of the single Side guitar a coat of Fiberglass Resin? since when it dries is pretty hard ...
All solid guitar with sikta spruce top and mahogany back and sides vs solid (top-back) guitar with sikta spruce top and rosewood back and side , which one i should go for at same price? Does only laminated sides make that difference?
thank you
that's interesting, i just watched another video about kerfing and had a look at my guitars and all of them, except my epiphone AJ220 have the cuts inward, the epi though has the cuts facing the sides...like you have here.
It does not matter which wat they are they are just there to allow the kerfing to bend but keep it in a continuous piece for easier glue up.
What if both back and side are laminated Indian rosewood? Would this carry out some characteristics of the rosewood? Btw, thanks your video.
Aw i was first comment last video :( love ur vids btw :) keep it up
Informative
any idea what martin means by high pressure laminate? i always assumed it was what they swept up off the floor on friday mixed with glue.
i ask cos i have a martin OOOX1 and out of the 11 guitars i have at the moment, including gibson, maton, larrivee the martin is amazing, of the 50-60 guitars i've had since 2014 the martin blows them all away. but martin have no explanation of what HPL actually is.
Hey Randy, what if you used 3 pieces of the same woods for the sides instead of 2, but each piece was a little thinner so that the total thickness was similar to the double sided option? Would 3 pieces be as beneficial as 2 in that case?
That would create even more benefits. Factories often use that technique in their laminated sides.
Do you have the Gore & Gilet books? They actually add weights to the sides to keep more energy flowing out of the top rather than the sides.
Hey Jason! No I don't have their books but I'll get them someday. Gore's Falcate bracing is what inspired me to develop my Radiant bracing pattern. I'm not sure if I had a completed guitar with that pattern when you were here building.
I'm starting to make laminated sides and would like to know if croslaminations are a do or don't. In the thinking of this video it seems it would be preferable to use only lenghtgrain pieces.
If you go to the 9:20 ish spot on this video - th-cam.com/video/Kf8GMbHtRNU/w-d-xo.html - I answer your question in detail. Let me know if there is anything else I can do for you.
on drums the shells layers have their wood grains alternate at 90 degrees. why on guitar laminates do they always run the same direction?
What about if I play percussive fingerstyle like Mckee and Jon Gom? Doesn't thinner wood would sound louder and with more treble when hit? Just a doubt because I'll have a guitar handmade to play this style.
He has a point when he talks about stiffness. In reality the sides should be stiff, and made of the same material, without multi-layering. The more interfaces you have, the more of the "sound" you will lose. Now, I don't like the point that is making with the two guitar rims. Yes, of course the thicker one is stiffer, and it deforms less with humidity, but In reality after you assemble the rim, you put the top and the back or you keep the rim in the mould to avoid such problems.
After the top and back are glued in, that flexibility that he presents is irrelevant. The structure stiffens itself up
Hello grandpa I am 11 year old boy from INDIA I learned something from your video thank you
Great information, but you never told or showed us what a double side was. How thick are the two sides each and together.
Laminated sides will have roughly the same acoustic properties as all wood sides since the back and sides have very little impact on the sound and serve as structural elements more than anything else. The back and sides will be muffled againtmst your body anyway and if you think about it all the vibration is transmitted to the top.
can a guitar company fake a full solid guitar? like can they split a wood so it be identical and put one on the outside another inside of guitar and ply wood in the middle?
A quality laminated side has ~1.5mm outside sheet (not a 0.6mm veneer facing as in cheap guitars.) The backing sheets/ply are chosen for their weight and rigidity. Example, Rosewood might be backed by spruce. The 'cheapness' of laminated is in the reduced labour time not necessarily on material quality or cost. Torres made a paper mache back and side guitar over a century ago to illustrate the point. The top is the primary factor for tone followed by the fretboard (especially in steel strings, compare a maple Vs rosewood fretboard with steel, do the same with nylon...).
Did I miss the explanation of "double sides"? Is it just the use of laminated curfing? I almost expexted it to be a type of lamination like a doubletop.
I couldn't understand... is double sides a plywood of two glued pieces of the same wood?
Can you make a video showing how to determine if a finished, completely built Guitar is real wood VS laminate, just by looking on the outside and using a strong light to look inside, checking the way grains run or whatever method you know that is reliable.
If the instrument was built properly you won't be able to tell without taking it apart or looking up the specific model.
If the instrument performs nicely and is beautiful to behold does it even matter.
@@deepfreeze202 It matters if someone is selling a guitar at a higher price saying it is imported real wood, when in fact it is a cheap laminated fake wood not worth the price. It took you 4 years to reply to my question, I don't expect one now.
so what guitars are double sided?
Cracking sounds around 6:00... 😂 great video
Something in the top left corner gave up. You can see the dust flying around
Laminated sides - ok, but laminated top and back... Is it so expensive to glue a top or a back from 4, 6, 8 pieces of wood in width? I'm remaking my old post-soviet guitar (more for a carpenter experience), and I glued top from 8 pieces, back from 6, and I don't see any troubles with that. If we look at an acoustic guitar as a wood product, it needs not so large volume of wood. I'd better replace rosewood fretboard with maple or walnut one... Even beech, let it be! But laminated top and back...
The double side is still a lamination.
Aren't guitars with solid wood sides more expensive?
Who is better lamined or lolid?
Laminate is the cheapest, solid is really good, double sides are the best
@@SpencerAcoustics Your opinion lacks actual facts and science to back your claims. BTW, a double side IS A LAMINATION.
So Taylor’s aren’t good guitars?? 🥺🥺 I was thinking of buying a Taylor 414ce Ovangkol v class.
I'm not saying they are not good guitars, just pointing out different building techniques. Taylor makes some wonderful guitars. If you like the Taylor 414 then I say BUY IT! Enjoy it! Play it everyday.
I was genuinely interested in your subject here, but left the video early because the music was too loud and irritating
If you reissue this with no foreground muzac then I would subscribe.
Thanks anyway
I enjoyed your presentation, and as a guitar maker, recently returning to that craft after 35 years in another occupation I would like to politely critique a few of your points. First, in your opening descriptive sentence you use the term laminated (plywood!), solid and double sides (plywood!) and state there is some correlation regarding these different construction types as far as affecting the "value of every guitar". These differences really have nothing, intrinsically, to do with value. Value is simply a perception created in the mind of the buyer. Why does my friend love his, to me, sorry sounding Gibson guitar over a cheaper better sounding say, Yamaha guitar (even one with a plywood top). Perceived name reputation would be my answer. The sum of value should include many variables and regarding construction, that should be judged more in terms of adequate strength of materials and long term stability; not so much, tone. Tone is the summation of so many variables and you would never not purchase a guitar just because the sides were made a certain way. Same with wood choice and thickness choice. You are correct in focusing on the top, the sounding board, the prime and only really relevant tone producing part of a guitar. Your illustration regarding the skin stretched over a steel pipe is excellent. But then you undermine it by referring to sides as having different tone. Does the steel pipe now have tone? No. The whole point is to eliminate any tone in the steel pipe/sides so that the soundboard keeps all the vibrations and transmits them efficiently. The back can also be thick steel so that it reflects (not vibrate) the somewhat trapped vibrations back to the top. That is why Greg Smallman guitars have apx. 1/4" sides AND backs.
Of course all guitars sound good, to someone... and some sound good but are too expensive or don't have the "approved" name on the headstock. Some are ugly. There is so much tradition/myth about many items we buy and sell. Since you are primarily focusing on construction, ask a Martin guitar fan, how can they justify buying an instrument that needs a very expensive and totally unnecessary, neck reset due to glued on neck and thin sides (which tend to also crack when bumped), pickguard which distorts and cracks the top, intonation issues, no adjustment in the neck, carpenter's glue so if the instrument gets heated up the bridge slips and digs into the nice shiny finish or worse. All these issues could have been easily rectified but some of them would go against the "myths". Thankfully some have been rectified finally. But some die slowly...primarily, the myth of the superiority of glued on necks, thin bodies (made with approved "tonewoods"), and unbelievably, the myth of the superiority of a non adjustable neck! It seems, just as it is hard to build a reputation, it's also hard to damage one, even if warranted. (I do revere many Martin guitars, but as a former repairman and having repaired hundreds of them, they really paid my bills more than any other brand).
Specifically, to your term, "double sides", could not the same exact, final, superior result be accomplished by many veneer thickness laminations? If glued with epoxy, you even add the density of the glue (moving more in the direction of that desirable steel pipe..) also, even though you use more wood for double sided (plywood!) guitars, the wood can be of a more sustainable and cheaper choice. Reserving the rare, expensive, beautiful veneer layer for the outside only. Whether it be "double" or 10 pieces of glued veneer...
When you mention the supposed tonal properties of maple sides vs. plywood, again, isn't the idea to eliminate the tone of the sides as much as possible as well as the flexibility? If the cheap plywood guitar is inferior it is because it is more flexible than the maple, not because the maple has any superior tone. Hence, 1/4" maple would be even better with certainly less "tone" at that point plus added mass and stiffness (steel pipe)
When you say, "The only way you can get the same sound is by single or double sides of the same material.....". But we don't want the sound of any material, correct? We want a stiff/dense/inert "steel pipe". Also that stiffness keeps the waist from bending in and out which also restricts the top from caving in to the sound hole area (interesting how tradition dictates, at the most critical place on a top where you need the most strength, you cut a big hole!!!). That caving in is partly responsible for the neck needing a reset at some point.
I'm with you regarding laminated tops. However, have you seen the video of the plywood top Yamaha surpassing, as recorded scientifically, the other solid top guitars as far as extended sustain?
When you show the three piece side and mention "cheap" wood in the center as a detriment to vibration, again, aren't we trying to eliminate the side vibration, not engage in discussing which woods are more or less transmitters of vibrations. Remember your steel pipe.
Your lining (solid vs. kerfed) demonstration is super excellent. I am currently using Katalox wood (Mexican ebony), 1" deep x 5/16" thick to line the sides under the top in place of kerfed or thinner solid lining. Many solid pieces, apx. 2" long cut to fit exactly, like a jig saw puzzle. Much stiffer than your double sided example even. The sides are only 4 layers of .020" veneer. Perhaps best of both worlds (?). Light but stable sides with a "tone ring" dense top edge. More experimenting needed. When I took my guitar (a super 400 model) out of the mold after gluing on the back there was NO movement. The top lined up perfectly and I am ready to glue on the top without the mold (not needed to keep the shape). I may go with thicker sides. Weight is another one of those pesky myths (tell that to Gibson Mastertone banjo players!).
I am sorry for the length here but I have enjoyed so much your presentation and felt I might add my 3 cents, for whatever it's worth. Bottom line, perhaps: Buy the guitar that you fall in love with, regardless of any supposed "inferior/superior" construction (or anything else) considerations. But it is good to be educated, as you are doing here, so the buyer can take real information into his decision rather than be hoodwinked with tradition/myths.
100% agree, I've had solid wood guitars made by well-known makers that sounded nowhere near as good as the exact same style of guitar from a little known maker which had a solid top, laminated back and sides, not only that, but more importantly for me, the neck and setup of the (four times) cheaper guitar felt much, much better and more playable not to mention that when moving the guitar in and out of different temperatures/humidity levels the cheaper guitar kept tuned a lot better than the branded one.
Background music is too loud
2 minutes in and I feel like my eyes have been opened in the sense of guitar construction
Cracking and loosing shape is a problem but I believe the sides need to vibrate and too thick doesn't allow that but eliminating kerf strips would make things easier. .
I know the marketing boys desperately want to re-brand a two plate laminate as "double sided" but its still a laminate and always will be.
notting but solid wood for me sorry
Laminated back and sides will have very little if any impact on the sound of guitar while providing far better strength and duribility, solid wood will want to warp while laminated wood will be much more stable. I would still stick with a solid wood top though since that's where all the magic happens.
The background music is so obnoxious and loud that I can"t listen to what you are saying.
so many youtubers make the same mistake
My guitar is 43 dollars hahahahaha fuck the 5,000 dollars guitar not worth it !!!
thank you