Solid Vs. Laminated Back and Sides in Acoustic and Classical Guitars: MythBusters and Facts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ค. 2021
- Solid Vs. Laminated Sides and Back in Acoustic and Classical Guitars: MythBusters and Do Not Believe the Hype even if the hype has more than 100.000 subs!
Facts and Myths...
I hope you enjoy! - เพลง
"Don't believe the hype". Thank you. I feel a lot better about my solid top -- laminated sides and back guitar now. Ultimately I saved a lot of money.
Ah such an excellent presentation! Also, very reassuring too for those of us who have laminate back and sides on our guitars. Liked and subscribed 🔥 🎸
A few/three years ago I bought two classical guitars that needed serious help. Separate purchases but both had been wronged by their owners at some point and they had been sanded heavily. Both were early 80’s Matsuoka, an M50 and an M100. The 50 is laminated b&s and the 100 is solid. Over the course of this past winter I re-topped both. Both with AAA cedar and based on the grain pattern it’s clear the tops were from the same billet. Essentially both tops I made were clones and modeled after the Matsuoka six fan bracing. The only significant difference were the rosettes. I managed to find a Japanese supplier that actually makes the exact rosettes for each model. So at a glance someone familiar with those models wouldn’t know they had been re-topped. I finished both with French polish. Other than the b&s those guitars are virtually the same once completed and I personally cannot tell which one is which. So you speak the sensible truth. The real difference between solid and laminate is hype.
Thanks Cesar. I have been debating thess same issues with guitarists who would swear on SOLID WOOD. I always argue that SOLID TOP is sufficient, the things that counts the most during gig are SKILL level, performance and the band dynamics. More power to your channel sir.
Thank you Cesar for such a valuable information, I could never hear the difference between solid or laminated sides and back but I can always hear the difference between solid and laminated tops, Hearing it from a professional now I know is not my mind or my hearing playing tricks on me. Thanks again and hope to learn more from you and happy new year 2022
Thanks so much for the nice comment and Happy 2022 to you too!
@@CesarAllGuitar Thank you 🙏
Thank you Cesar. You've shared a very valuable information and this would be a great help in choosing/buying my guitar. More power to your channel.
Aaaaa yes, the Godfather of Spanish Guitars. A delight to watch your videos and to relax, very informative, thank you Cesar!
Thanks so much! Happy to be the Godfather of Spanish Guitars LOL!!
You know your stuff Cesar, great information as always. 👍
Thanks my dear friend!
Thank you, Cesar! You're giving some very helpful information.
Glad it was helpful!
just found your channel while looking for reviews of PRS SA E50A. Like your approach in reviewing the guitar as I don't use my nails it was good to hear the sounds played without nails.
Keep posting videos good to hear honest review without an an agenda I was unsure about laminates but thank you for explaining.happy new year
Thanks so much! Appreciate the nice comment!
great info brother and spot on! funny I was just thinking about doing another video on this because the one I did is getting so old. great information mang!
Thanks Randy! you see...great minds think alike 😀
Thank you so much!👍🙂
Spot on.
Thanks for yr perfect advice considering madness of guitarists
Very nice, helpful discussion.
Good evening/Afternoon Ceaser. So informative as Per Usual!! Not only your Playing, but your Knowledge is always welcome to me.I ,had a friend who payed me a visit the other evening whilst I was Restringing my guitar. He watched me finishing then ,asked me " Where did you learn to do it like that?" I mentioned one word ..... Yours! He phoned me to Thank me.I told him " Please , don't thank Me Thank Ceaser!! He's now a Subscriber too you. I wish you Good Health My Friend. And of course Your Lovely Family. Many thanks and Kind regards Colyn.
Thanks so much Colyn! you are so kind!
Excellent!
Many thanks!
Thank you for this!
My pleasure!
Thanks! Very good video.
Glad you liked it!
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it
Great video
Thanks for the video. I have an old Alhambra guitar made in Spain for Simms Watts (probably 1960s). It appears to have solid top and sides, but a laminated back. It sounds great. However, I also have a Barnes & Mullins 'Almeria' guitar (also made in Spain). The latter is actually my favourite for sound, especially for Flamenco, and it's all laminated! I wish I could find such a nylon-strung guitar with a narrower, radiused neck with a truss rod.
Gracias César por tu interesante explicación sobre las maderas en las guitarras acústicas. Muy didáctico.
Un abrazo desde Andalucía /Antonio
Muchísimas gracias a ti como siempre amigo!
Great share Cesar. Very informative :)
Thanks so much!
Muchas gracias Don Cesar! I really learned a lot and you validated my choice not to spend more money unnecessarily.
good info!
In addition if the laminate back and sides are made of for example 3 pieces of Rosewood or 3 pieces of mahogany the sound is quite good. Maybe not the sound quality of all solid back and sides but quite close. I have an Alvarez AD66SHB all mahogany guitar with solid top and laminate back and sides. The sound quality is very good as is my Yamaha FG830 with solid Spruce top and laminate Rosewood back and sides.
Super intersante video, no conocía la guitarra con aros y fondo de cartón de Antonio de Torres, a ver si bicheo un poco más en su historía! Abrazo
Gracias Jorge! veras que interesante... tanta historia con los solid back and sides....😀
Thanks, going for a solid guitar for my first guitar😁
Thank you Cesar.
Wow, César, this is a super-informative video! Now, I remember to have a cheap but very good classical guitar made in Spain, I don't remember the brand, but that guitar had a very thin, no more than 2mm top board that was very laid, compared to my cousin's Yamaha classical, which had a top of maybe 5mm thick top. That Yamaha was full, but mine had a loud and brilliant timbre. By the way, it was back in the 70s. Maybe Yamaha is doing better nylon strings nowadays.
Un abrazo y gracias por este vídeo tan bueno!
Edit... The brand of the Spanish guitar was Admira. Very good and reasonable priced.
Hola Antonio! Admira has several entry level models that are very reasonably priced. My preferred entry levels are Cordoba and Yamaha though...Gracias como siempre!
Brandon Acker just did a comparison of guitars. The second one he played (worth 2,000) sounded the best to my ears, and it was lam back & sides. The NEXT question I have is whether there is a difference between lam cypress and lam rosewood? Does the laminate remove the difference between the blanca and negra? Does it even matter whether it's blanca or negra if the sides/back are laminated? (Also, a sound sample would have been helpful, here.) Great video. Thumbs up.
Beautiful playing as usual Cesar! Can't beat the solids but even the laminated are good quality these days! Cheers!
😀👍 Thanks Dragan! Agree in the solid tops...
Great video my friend. Solid back and sides are almost entirely a "bling" thing, like cool inlays. Except that really nobody knows you have it except you. 🤣
That was a great analogy my friend!
You are exactly correct sir. Finally somebody that speaks the truth and not the hype
Thanks so much!
sabes que siempre... SIEMPRE me pareció que las guitarras laminadas en back and sides hacian que una tapa solida proyectara mejor asi como dices que lo comentan los guitarristas clásicos... y ciertamente un montón de gente me dijo que estaba loco que eso no era posible que todo solido era lo mejor del mundo.... de hecho recientemente vi una comparación entre una taylor 114 y una 314... y sinceramente me pareció que la 114 también tenia mas volumen y proyecto... gracias por confirmarme en cierto modo que no hay nada de malo con mis oidos jejeje... muy buen video
D'accuerdo, totalmente.
Well said about time someone said this. Laminated back and sides are fine, the only difference is the price of all Solid Wood Guitars. As long as the top is solid that is all that matters. Laminated woods are actually stronger and enhance the top for better sound. A very good truthful informative video.
Great video Cesar!. I have been telling people this for years but many still get fooled by the marketing smoke and mirrors put out by almost every big brand and their dealers. The back and sides are essentially a sound box. What it is made of has very little bearing on the tone of the guitar. Even more so when we are talking about laminate back and sides. An outer veneer of less than 1 mm thickness glued onto a couple of layers of cheaper wood is not going to add anything to the tone. Here's an example of how Yamaha describes the laminated rosewood back and sides of the FG830. Rich overtone, Long sustain, Deep lows and bright highs. And yes that is a description of the tonal qualities of solid rosewood. It is not however a description of the tonal qualities of a laminated back and sides with a thin veneer of rosewood as the outer layer. It is a deliberate marketing trick and misleading at best. It is about time all this nonsense was stopped.
@@user-zz8hl8se6t Absolutely. I have owned the FG800, FG820, FG830 and FG850. The only one that does sound a little different is the FG850 because it has a solid mahogany top whereas all the others have solid spruce tops. What you are getting when buying the FG820 or FG830 is aesthetics. You are paying for how it looks. And in that sense then yes a thin veneer of mahogany on the FG820 or rosewood on the FG830 is nice to have but tonally? no, it makes no difference.
the information you give very about the laminated sides and back of an acoustic guitar is very helpful..can you suggest a good sounding type of wood for the solid top sir? thank you...
Thanks so much!I particularly love red cedar for Spanish classical guitars and Spruce for Acoustics....
Hello Cesar. I didn't find anything about the following subject in your videos: which wood would you prefer for the top : Cedar or Spruce ? And for beginners ?
One of the most famous Spanish builders once made a guitar with paper mache sides to make this very point. Even today, some very important builders laminate tone wood with two species. (Lamination and "plywood" need to be distinguished.) Likewise, the matter of a solid top involves many factors. I have wondered if a top lamination would allow for a far thinner top. Suppose one laminated sitka with sitka but brought this down to 65 thousanths?
Hola, has oído hablar de las guitarras Antonio Valderas? Me podrias comentar por favor, en linea no hay Info. Gracias excelente Video.
As long as your guitar is the best quality you can afford. If you are serious a relationship will develop between you and her. Play, enjoy, and make the best music you can.
The problem with laminated guitars may not be the sound but the ability to repair them if the back or sides are damaged. Probably the only way to do that would be to cut off the back and sides and replace them . I don't think most would be worth that cost.
I have two and I like em a lot.
I'm thinking about a laminated back/side taylor vs a full solid guild.. The taylor is more expensive even being laminated.. Sometimes it's the brand that you pay I guess
What do you think about laminated mahogany or maple vs plywood? I play Guild acoustic guitars from the 80's. They both have laminated backs and solid wood sides and tops. I have tried every other type guitar at really low and high prices...I've never played a guitar that sounds better. I think it is just personal preference.
But though the solid back and sides don’t affect the sound very much, doesn’t it age better and endure the environment better. Like it doesn’t come delaminated and lose integrity over time? So all solid construction can be better heirloom instruments that increase in value instead of decrease like wood laminate guitars
thank you Cesar, what about archtops hollowbody ? does solid top still make a difference for pickups?
Well.... I know it is going to make some people rant but...In my opinion it does not make a huge difference in hollow bodies once plugged... thanks for watching!
Thanks for the contribute but a question remains to me: why did you choose then a full solid guitar to replace your previous laminated back and sides one? Anyway, a valuable opinion is always appreciated, and anyone can buy what he/she likes the most...even if "the price doesn't justify the difference".
My Eastman E1d has solid sappele b and s. Before buying I spent an hour in a Room with the guitar and the 200 pounds cheaper laminated version of the same guitar. The pch series.
The difference was huge, and I happily paid the extra.
But I agree many laminates are excellent. Particularly from Yamaha.
Should have got a Martin dx2e would sound better. That e1d doesn't have enough bass sound for me.
👍
🙏
I think you are a treasure.
Thanks so much!
I agree with your statement that laminated sides and back should make the top produce more sound. I'm a new and inexperienced player but because I am an experienced electrical engineer I at least have some sound (no pun intended) theories to support your statement.
1. Laminated or layered wood is stronger and more rigid. Considering the design of any quality loudspeaker, the enclosure is always rigid and the movement of the speaker cone produces the sound. A speaker enclosure that flexes and vibrates muddies the sound and wastes power and volume. It seems that the same should apply to a guitar.
2. Potentially inconsistent sound with a resonating back: A back that moves and resonates WILL be dampened by the clothing and body fat of the player. That's a scientific fact. Therefore, the amount of dampening and frequencies that are dampened most will vary depending on who is playing it.
I assume these are the thoughts of those who believe the sides and back should be rigid, not resonate, and therefore project all of the energy through the soundboard.
Like I said, I'm not experienced in critiquing guitars. I'm looking at it from a scientific standpoint and pointing out some reasons why layered sides and back COULD be superior.
I bought alahambra 4 p with solid top and laminated back and sides,and it has better tone range than some all solid classical guitars that i had tryed.I use my alahambra 4p for practice and study on music academy every day
All-solid instruments also require a good deal of care as they are extremely vulnerable to temperature and humidity.
How do you take good care of all solid guitars?
@@zenithchan1646 A good sound hole humidifier. You should even use one on your laminated. Plus keep them in the case when you aren't playing.
I've been trying to tell people this for years, and getting beat up for it. lol
Welcome to the club! And long time no see!
@@CesarAllGuitar thanks, Cesar !
And ..... What he left out was the fact that laminated sides and back are almost impervious to moisture changes .. unlike solid sides that can crack and split in desert areas, these will not .. and if you are a professional who travels, say from Florida or Louisiana, to Arizona, Nevada or southern California... the sides and back will be stable ..
However, tou still need a humidifier in order to keep the top from drying out and shrinking .... but these guitars are very stable. ..
While I agree about the lamination it's a bit more complicated than just that. First off I have one all solid acoustic guitar, one laminated and two USA made Ovation guitars, which famously use a kind of lute shaped fibreglass bowl rather than wood. All have solid tops.
So which sounds best? The all solid one does closely followed by the Ovation guitars. The laminated one sounds okay but not as good as the others. So what makes the difference?
What I've noticed is that the manufacturer will typically use a higher grade of wood on the top of their all solid wood guitars and often take more care on the bracing. That is why, in my opinion, the sound is usually superior on an all solid guitar. They'll use cheaper cuts of wood and spend less time on the cheaper laminated guitars. The top of course being where most of the sound comes from.
My Ovation guitars have high quality solid wood tops that other companies would have reserved for their more expensive solid body guitars. This is likely why the sound is good despite there being absolutely no wood at all on the back and sides.
My all solid wood guitar sounds best and this is likely due to a superior top and bracing along with more attention to detail in the construction. How much the rosewood back and sides contribute to the sound is difficult to say but the wood looks beautiful and the sound is fantastic.
I like laminated guitars because they're good value and durable so I'm not knocking them at all but all solid from a good company will usually sound quite a bit better. Now whether it's worth spending twice as much for a small gain in sound is debatable. In my opinion if your budget can stretch to an all solid it's worth it, not just for the sound but for the beauty of the instrument too. However a laminate back and sides guitar that is well made will sound great in any environment and bring you hours of pleasure as mine has done.
my Martin dx1 I've had for 20 years with a solid Spruce top and HPL sides and back sounds better than all wood guitars that cost triple the price. Lol
Very interesting comment. I've always paid the $$$ for an all wood guitar anyway, but lately had been considering a less expensive laminated back/sides guitar. I think your reasoning makes sense, but I wonder how much difference a "select" piece of spruce would make over a lesser grade of spruce in a guitar top.
I still would rather have my all solid wood guitar, don’t get me wrong I have a laminated back and sides but I use it as a porch guitar because I don’t have to worry about the heat, humidity, cold , and of course getting bumped or taking a knock to the back or sides which is typical to happen when you’re on your porch in a rocking chair. So it’s got its purpose in the guitar arsenal but this is simply my opinion based off of my experiences and of course my perception just as everything else… As far as when I am not playing on the porch or exposing it to the heat, cold , humidity, etc I play my all solid guitars because it does sound better to me. More sustain , more consistent EQ across the spectrum, more harmonics and an overall better sound to me.
For me it's like the difference between mahogany and Rosewood. Most people prefer Rosewood cuz it's got a deeper resonating sound. Maybe that's good for strumming I can see that. but as a finger picker playing flamenco and blues music. I want something that's Tighter punchier and louder for better Note separation. All wood guitars especially expensive rosewood's tend to sound very muffled and muddy to me.
More power to you! Thanks for watching!
All that matters is the top is wood
Depends on how stiff the back is braced. Laminated wood tonally is inferrior to solid wood always. Its not rocket science and is just a fact. I agree if its over braced then the back has little contrubution to the tone. (Typical of mass produced guitars) Also classical guitars are nylon string so the have far less energy to provide and mostly resonate the top and back is less a part of the tone. For steel string acustic this is not true at all. I will agree on the sides however. Sides dont contribute to tonal qualty in any significant way and they can spilt, even if braced correctlly. Laminiate sides are a very good thing. I also am not tring to sell anything, just a different perspective.
There is nothing wrong with laminated back and sides, but some cheaper instruments are made from thin outside veneers and inside core is made from cheap composite material, you can definitely hear the difference.
Absolutely agreed!
remember those plastic backed Ovations? Used by may pros.
I have three of them, two I bought brand new
@@pmscalisi I still have my Ovation I bought brand new in 1984. It sounds beautiful and gets many compliments . They were made with very high quality and it stands the test of time.
@@karlp.1096 I have a ‘68 Balladeer 12 string, a ‘75 Custom Legend and my late brother’s ‘81 Custom Legend 12 string. I like all of them.
-I've heard some people say, they actually prefer.. the sound of solid-tops, over all solid-wood guitars
That's right 90% of the sound comes from the top. I'm an old country Blues finger-picker and my Martin dx1 with solid Spruce top and HPL side I've had for twenty years has always sounded better than most all wood guitars that cost triple the price. Lol.
That's right!
True, the soundboard is by far most important. But I've never heard a guitar with laminated back and sides that sounds as good as a comparable one with solid woods. That's not to say that there aren't good guitars with laminate back and sides. I played an Alvarez-Yairi dreadnaught for years and it was a great guitar. But it was not as loud, punchy or complex as a comparable solid wood Martin or the Huss & Dalton that I'm playing now. There was one big advantage to laminated back and sides I had (besides the price) -- it was a lot less effected by weather and humidity changes, so it didn't get out of adjustment seasonally like all-solid guitars do.
Hi David, Thanks so much for your comment. You see, this is an interesting subject and personal experiences may vary. My angle is - after many many years playing many many guitars, my personal experience is that the price difference most of the times is not justified re. Tone, projectability, timber and sound. I try to make people who are * on a budget * focus on what does really matter. So they are not filled by the Hype out there. Thanks for watching too!
I bet my twenty-year-old Martin dx1 is louder then you're all solid wood expensive Martin. I bought it for 500 in the store when at the time I had 1500 ready to spend. Lol. Strumming those over resonating muddy muffled sound un all wood guitars are great but for finger-picking I want something tight Punchy and loud. And unless you got a D18 my Martin got more bass than yours too.
I have a couple laminate top guitars that I would put up against a solid guitar.. I am trying to figure out how they sound so good for have a plywood top... Not every laminate but I have 2 that are special, I suppose... I am almost embarrassed to say it but the sound awesome...
Many years ago I had an Admira with laminated top that sounded fantastic… sometimes it happens!
@@CesarAllGuitar I definitely prefer higher quality but I am just suprised...
I have 4 guitars, 2 with solid back and sides the other 2 laminate, but with solid tops. They all sound good, but the all solid have a little more fullness, and a bit better tone. Is it worth twice as much or more? It's subjective to the player. I don't understand why they have to cost so much more though. You can find online solid mahogany back and side sets for around 50 us dollars, and Rosewood for slightly more than twice that. Guitar manufactures buying in bulk, probably have half those costs. Yet solid back and side guitars can be 1000$ more for similar build quality. Personally, if you're going to get a lifetime guitar, i would splurge for the all solid, but if you're a beginner feeling it out, I'd get the laminate back and sides. And if I was a traveling gigging musician playing plugged in at bars and small venues, I would get all lam, since it's most durable, and has cheapest replacement cost if stolen.
Problem is that all wood you splurging for isn't as durable or stable. It literally has a less chance of lasting you a lifetime compared to a guitar with a laminated back or neck lol. Definitely won't be maintenance-free.
@@cooloutac The difference in maintenance between laminated back and sides and solid back in sides is negligible. I suppose there is a slightly greater chance of a crack forming in solid, but it's still uncommon and an easy fix. Most luthiers charge about 50 dollars to fix a crack, big whoop. Many luthiers will discourage or refuse major repairs on a guitar with laminate woods stating the costs exceed the value of a guitar. I've seen way more laminate guitars in need of an 800$ neck reset than cracks in a solid back. Trees live a long time for a reason, wood is an extremely durable material. I played an all solid guitar built in 1860 that was structurally sound. Orchestras are full of solid wood instruments that have outlasted multiple human lifetimes. The odds of a solid wood guitar lasting 100 years is far greater than a person, and with a fraction of a fraction of the maintenance costs.
@aliasname4251 I don't know how that can be true when laminate necks are much more stable than solid necks. For example my twenty-year-old Martin with the strataBond neck and micarta fret still has the same action and intonation that did the day I took it out the store 20 years ago. I think you're simply drinking your own Kool-Aid. If What you were saying is true prolly because people take these guitars that require little investment and use them as beaters and don't take care of it like they would any other guitar. The odds of a laminate guitar lasting longer than your solid wood one are much greater my friend. And if you do need a repair this plenty of videos on TH-cam showing luthiers repairing them I don't know why anyone wouldn't if they want to stay in business. You probably going to Crooks thet want to con you into more expensive guitars. One of the things I appreciate about the guy in this video he's actually not selling anything unlike most guitar videos we watch on TH-cam.
@aliasname4251 the only negative of the Birch laminate neck of my guitar is that it's very heavy. But to say it's not as long-lasting is crazy. The HPL on the sides nd back of my guitar i think is actually synthetic...lol. you can't even stain or scratch it. But when it comes to maintenance on the guitar there's no amount of Maintenance you going to do on your all solid wood guitar that's going to prevent it from needing adjustments in the future. Where as my guitar If taking care of won't need any for the rest of my life. And it's probably louder and punchier than yours. You're muddy overtones are great for strumming but not for picking in my opinion.
@@cooloutac I know luthiers and merely relating what I've seen and heard. I was at a shop, and somebody bought in a laminate guitar needing a neck reset, and the tech said I don't give a F*** about your sentimentality I'm not working on that piece of crap. That shop is still there and that guitar was probably thrown away. I have an all solid guitar built in 1976 and it's fine. It could last another 70 years plus, and if it's needs maintenance I can afford it, and I know there are luthiers willing to do the work. I don't want to watch videos on how to reset a neck, I'd rather pay a professional that's already done 500 resets, since they'll do a much better job.
Great video. Nothing wrong with a laminate back and sides guitar if the manufacturer is using high quality laminates.
It's all about the tops which is great to know. I suppose the guitar makers need to justify getting people to spend more money.
I guess the total contribution to the tone of the back and sides is really minimal compared to the top... Thanks for watching!
I totally agree with this. However the main contributor to this hype is because most badly made guitars are mostly laminated back and sides.
Agree!
This is spot on. The reality is, many guitar builders are actually transitioning to "double sides". They don't like to call them laminated sides because of the negative connotation, but ultimately, that's basically what they are.
People just like the idea of owning all wood in the collectible sense. When I bought my dx1 Martin acoustic guitar 20 years ago with a solid Spruce top and a HPL laminate neck and back and sides I didn't even know about any brands of companies or anything about guitars so I had no bias or preconditions. I just played every acoustic guitar in the stores to compare and I just loved the sound of the cheap martin. They came out with a guitar a couple years ago called the SC13E with koa laminate back and sides which in my opinion is one of the best sounding guitars they've ever made.
I have over 300 hundred classical and Flamenco guitars from all over the earth. Most all are Very expensive solid Brazilian Rose Wood guitars. My laminated guitars from Spain were more beautiful and even more Expensive, than my Solid wood guitars. Most all Great Rare Woods are now, Saved Woods internationally. Most Great Luthiers are Now laminating their Expensive guitars. BUT, all have Solid Tops. The back and sides laminated, will last longer because of better Weather adjustments. Athough Solid wood is more Expensive to make. The truth is, laminated guitars are more lighter and sometimes even more beautiful than the Solids. The interior and the Top construction and the Lacquer and the strings determines the sound quality. The more and more you play any guitar, the interior will be force to Vibtrate in time, due to the Sound Waves obsorbing the Wood interior pores, All guitars contantly Played, will open up the Wood for a better sound. Solid and Laminated Vibrations, to the human ear, is almost Unnoticeable.Solid Wood will always cost more, However a Great Luthier, can make a greater laminated Guitar, with better sound, That can also cost more than the Solid. ONLY the constant Playing the guitar, is the key, Even a Dull guitar will sound great, Played by a quality guitar Player.
Solid tops are 'better' than laminates, but.....double tops are even better!?
It makes no sense, unless you're the seller looking to get more guitars out of less wood & how to market it with a positive spin
Hi Nihls !!!
@@DBCisco hey DB :)
agree! great seeing you around!