Amazing interview. I am so appreciative of this. I deconstructed from a fundamental religion and then replaced it with AA. I did an ayahuasca ceremony and went into nileism. Everything's g was just as she said. Nothing g had meaning anymore. No one could understand when I said nothing matters to me anymore. In some ways I felt enlightened and didn't feel that was depression. Everyone was saying "find a hobby" it was laughable. Finally I had someone reach out to me on Facebook and said "look for the magic" it saved me. I started looking for moments that felt beautiful and magical. I have found meaning in people. And that's what I needed. Thank you so much for putting words to this. So much love ❤️
Becoming atheist at once is not bad at all.. it's an opportunity to exercising mind, desires and option Until to become theism, because you understood God's exist. If you can pass his understandimg and end quote. Nihilism is my experience too bacause God did not testify of their works and I cannot act me to condemn bacause I had the right to act./re.act.
I'd even argue that the opposite can be true. My in-laws are as mormon as they come, and the only thing driving them to do the right thing is their belief that God wants them to do the right thing. They have zero internal drive, so they only do what they think they're supposed to, without a drop of actual empathy.
@@audrawells1383 93 MILLION! And, yes the great big families, money, security, etc. can be great big fun. But, end of day & all day long, WHO IS THAT IN THE MIRROR you are FORCED TO CAREFULLY LOOK AT because you must "Put on a little lipstick" as BALLARD famously snarled. Who is behind those eyes with 2" lashes and shadow caked in those poor old wrinkly lids? Who? What? When? Where? W H Y? You-do Voodoo.
Every time she drops a truth of hers I literally have been saying “holy f**k” because this person is finally able to put into words the experience I’m going through now.. when she talks about “knowing too much” and anything along those lines hit me deep, especially when she mentioned not wanting to share this, because I don’t wish this emptiness feeling upon anyone.. Edit to add: this interview gave me the feeling of community. It’s good to know I’m not alone.
This surprisingly is ONE of the BEST podcasts ever. I was not raised Mormon but was raised in a dominant Mormon community in southern Idaho and wound up teaching high school and building a beautiful home in a deep Mormon community. We finally left. We are traumatized. I’m thinking I should give you guys some $$$, been thinking that for some time. Even though having lived through the worst hatred that comes from Mormons, I have learned so much from Mormon Stories. These learning sessions help me understand how and why committed Mormons come across as so hateful. I think it would be useful for you to find people like me who have been abused by Mormons in order to show how negative the religion is in so many ways. Meanwhile, I will mull giving $$$ to you. Right now I tithe animal charities. (I grew up Catholic, which is not much different than Mormonism.) Good Luck. LOVE and NEED your endeavor.
I hope you are able to share your experiences & insights, as I’m sure they’d be very interesting & relevant. In addition to Mormon Stories, there’s also Cults to Consciousness (& others).
I read your message, and sorry you got abused (was it culturally, verbally, etc)? Idaho is a beautiful place still though - and sorry some people gave you a bad experience.
I so much agree with you. I have been studying the diversity of spirituality for many years and even so, Brittany really pulled it together for me. I am calling myself a secular spiritualist, informed by what I study in particle physics (quantum consciousness; and the information field). We are not alone! (quote from the TH-cam movie "Aliens" about visitors from another planet, starring Gillian Anderson).
Brittney gave me so much validation for the the journey I've been on. I regularly say "I don't know, I grew up in a cult, so now I just make it up as I go along." One day at time is my favorite mantra.😘✌️
I'm not Mormon. I grew up Seventh-day Adventist. But except for the name of the prophet, we may as well have been raised in the same church. I find Mormon Stories to be so helpful. May the Universe bless you.
I went to an SDA school and my best friends are all ex sda from that same school, almost a decade later. I was always surprised by both the similarities and differences between both LDS & SDA. I was brought up Mormon
Me too. I deconstructed from being raised Seventh day Adventist. Then deconstructed from AA. Then spired into nileism. Found meaning in people. That's all that matters. It's enough. ❤
This woman is BRILLANT! Love her work, and knowledge of how she recreated her life from the ground up! I'm hoping she writes a book! Exceptional person, who is knowledgeable upon losing one's faith, and has totally transformed her life! ❤
What a great episode. Brittney seems like the best person to hang out with. I didn't get to talk to anyone like this until like 4th year of my Religion degree. We finally found each other then it was all over. Great episode. Brittney is amazing.
I'm extremely grateful that I got out of my cult pentecostal church when I was still young. Now I'm 22 and going through all of the same things Brittney did, and I found this channel (but especially this video) just when I'm in the trenches of nihilism. Super happy that I have resources like this to help me set a great secular spiritual foundation for my life! Thanks John and Margi, as a nevermo from New Zealand I'm finding so much worth in your podcast. Lots of love 💗💗
I am only halfway through and I’ve cried three times. She is expressing exactly what I have been experiencing but havent been able to share with anyone. I will listen to this episode again and again. Thank you❤
This episode is a watershed moment for me as I am at a nihilistic crossroads/cliff in post-Mormonism and this is “Heaven-sent” (if such a thing existed). Literally what I needed to hear when I needed to hear it as I am exhausted from the treadmill of wondering about the “why” of everything and trying to find meaning in the chaos and the infinite void. Literally a paradigm shift for me as I listen to this and it feels like there is some hope to find value and purpose and meaning in this absolute absurdity of life. Thank you for sharing. I’ll be listening to you and Bill Reel and diving into this brave new world.
I nearly jumped out of my skin when I saw this video! Brittney has been huge for me in my ex-Christan journey and I cannot WAIT to listen to this at least three times!!
I'm adding to the many comments. I literally texted my sister that I had found my new religion. I am so looking forward to connect with other people who resonated with this. Edited to add: I've been watching mormon stories for 4-5 years and just became a subscriber because of this episode.
cannot begin to tell you how much I appreciate this interview. i’m an hour in and I feel like my soul has been given this warm hug and is just being held and comforted. I can’t wait to continue and finish. if she is taking new clients I would love to work with her.
I was actually stuck in nihlism last month and felt like nothing I did in this life even matters. I could make an art project but eventually I'll be dead anyway so who cares. I was so far removed from the now that I couldn't see a point to any of it. I ended up seeing a tiktok about pulling back in and stop thinking so far out. I think thinking Celestial all those years as a mormon kid didn't help. I'm super glad to be hearing this podcast, ITS BEEN SUPER HELPFUL! Especially the part about creating your own rituals cuz apparently as humans we need them. I can see that now after this interview. It also helped me understand my parents that are still in, why theyd reject the history and instead choose to stay. It clearly benifits them in thier life just not my own and THATS OK.
Yeah, that's something I fail to understand. I believe that the core of Christianity is true, but if I somehow found out that it wasn't, I could very easily be an optimistic nihilist, but it seems that isn't the case for most people. They just have this insatiable need to feel like they're a part of something bigger than themselves, so if they lose their faith, they just latch onto a new belief system that's just as dogmatic as the one they left, albeit usually in different ways. If the truth claims of any particular belief system are indeed true, then that's one thing, but if they're not, then I couldn't imagine any benefit coming from it.
Thank you for talking about this. I love these discussions. Not many people have deconstructed to this degree and it's a weird place to be, but super important to discuss.
During my divorce I had a funeral for my marriage. Thomas Moore in A Religion of One’s Own, suggests creating your own liturgical calendar. That has been fun and helpful too. I have relatives who participate in some of that liturgical calendar.
I thought I was just teetering on the edge of depression yet again because of recent circumstances. But it is deeper than that and has been building up for longer than that, since having my beliefs turned upside down and no longer having a purpose. After journaling last night, I realize I've actually been trying to outrun and distract myself from despair and nihilism building up under the surface. Now that I know what it is, I don't think I can ignore it anymore. Trying not to cry right now, I've been trying to look like I'm "okay" for the people around me this whole time, and I don't feel safe going into it yet. It's too heavy. I know exactly the feelings of dissociation that Brittney talks about here. She was right about clinging to things like NDE afterwards, but I'm afraid of trusting those or any spiritual path now too...
I just want to say thank you for having Brittany on. I’m grateful to feel not alone in this difficult journey of deconstruction and nihilism. I already feel some hope after the hopelessness! Knowing there are resources to help me with this process is life changing. And thanks to John and Margie!
We have three generations struggling with nihilism. Considering the option of suicide has been a daily ritual for me. Ironically, this has been motivational for me because it makes me consider the value of life in the most stark manner possible. Queue The Myth of Sisyphus (Albert Camus) and my outlook changed from nihilism to absurdism.
Totally hear ya, hang in there and see the drama of the human story, even though it just a small part. I have a feeling that death will be really anti-climatic so enjoy the show while it lasts.
I relate so much with Brittney about her experience with nihilism. Camus paved the way out of existential crisis for me as well. But it happened way before when I had been writing my final paper in high school. (We had a great philosophy teacher). The idea of absurdism was what really did something for me. I still often struggle with the fear of death and meaningless of life but the concept of existence based on experiences brings me peace every time.
I love this channel. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness. It is very helpful to me as an ex cult member. Keep up the good work guys. Your guests leave me watching for hours and cannot pull away. This one is as brilliant as the last. (Elissa Wall)
“I don’t see God in this anymore”. This amazing woman has spoken my thoughts that I’ve not quite made solid, myself. I appreciate this SO much, Brittney. You are so smart. You make me miss my mom. She converted when I was about 6 -7 in Indiana! Margie was also raised out here, I think, and she has credited her ability to “see” to having non member family members and normalcy around her. I, too, am so grateful for my beer drinking grandma Barb! Haha. ❤️ Back to my mom…the most intelligent woman I ever knew. She and her best friend were maybe 25-26 in Relief Society, both with 3 kids, and they were asked to write down what they were most grateful for on paper, privately. They then shared their answers around the room and Mom’s answer was: My brain. Her bestie laughed and opened her paper to show her answer: My brain. These two women had these conversations w one another. Deep conversations. This story about my mom means so much to me. Although I’ve experienced a ridiculous amount of shame, guilt, anger as compared to my friends (non members), I am incredibly grateful for never having experienced The Truman Show. I am ex-mo and floundering a bit. I’ve deconstructed to the point that I honestly have not a clue where my parents are or why I’m delaying death. I’m now 52. 3 yummy young adult kids that are my reason. Divorced. Single. Isolated. When my parents died (2015 &18) I had a type of Truman experience, but lesser. Your words were like old friends, Brittney. Thank you so much. ❤️ Thanks John & Margie 🤗
Thank you so much for the honesty and insight! So much to relate to in this. I think that many of us who've left high-control religions get stuck in a place of skepticism and cynicism that is very, very lonely and isolating, and we stay there for such a long time. Condemned by, and unable to relate to the community we used to know, and yet lacking any formal structures or insights that enable one to move forward emotionally. The well founded skepticism developed from long exposure to the "loving" manipulations of a high-control belief system dominate, and those hyper-active spiritual antibodies can pump through the system for years! I did not think of this as Nihilism, but the connection is clear. Real spiritual growth is human growth, and that is an individual journey that each person must take, but I really appreciate knowing that there is a larger community out there thinking about and talking about this. I loved this statement from the video: “Rejection of life as a big grand story and narrative, to life worth living at the level of experience.”
I have to say, I love how she's taking up space in this conversation. If she has something to say she's going to say it. She doesn't allow herself to be interrupted. That is something that is uncomfortable when you first see it in a woman, but I'm loving this.
Margi, thank you for giving words to that feeling of your loved one being unreachable. I am so sad and so comforted to hear that in relationships, a partner seeming unreachable. . . happens. . . no matter how much you try. I don’t want anyone to relate to this feeling, and I didn’t realize how much I needed to know that it wasn’t just me.
As someone who grew up without religion in a society where I had little to no interactions with religious people (or at least it never came up), I find Mormon stories, SPTV and other YT channels so fascinating because I just can't wrap my head around some of the concepts and beliefs. Many of the issues of nihilism that Brittney faced in her faith crisis, I guess I "faced" as a young child although I don't remember them causing me any trauma because I had never learned about my great religious purpose in life before that. So for some reason the great existential fears never came to overwhelm me because I didn't examine them all at once as a adult, I probably thought about some of them for half a day as a 6 year old when my grandmother died, and about others at a different time. It's very interesting to think about how little this bothered/bothers me because I was never taught anything else. However, I can imagine how harsh and traumatic reality might feel if you grew up with a beautiful fairytale that put a protective umbrella over your life and made you feel like you were superior to others and had this amazing higher purpose in life. Very interesting to learn about Brittney's experience.
I was raised an atheist and I have actually felt deep and enduring existential terror from a very young age. I remember laying in my bed alone thinking about not wanting to die and wishing I could believe in a god at like 5 or so. I'm 40 and that melancholy and (if I let myself think about it) terror has never left me. I think it's probably more about personality types than the ideology you're raised with. Although I can see how losing a belief in God as an adult could be more identity-destroying.
Thanks for your comment and I am sorry to hear about your existential fears. Now that I'm thinking about it, I am also a hyper careful person in life, which is probably due to the fact that I'm quite convinced that death is the end of my life and consciousness. This seems to be opposite to the willingness to take risks that Brittney experiences. So it's not that I'm not scared of the death of loved ones or my own, but it's not something that consumes my life and I don't think anyone would be able to convince me that anything happened after death to mitigate those rather rational worries. Lots of interesting, thought provoking ideas in this episode!
I went through some harrowing spiritual experiences but I also had another member in my spirit too that was more centered as I begin to learn why there was so many religions. My journey was exciting and frightening at times. The good news and what I continued to hold on to, was who I was prior to my journey. I knew I had more peace, less judgment, I was very kind and felt I had more control over my body, appetite, mouth and mind. I had many friends and many people who loved my company. Now everything has been flipped upside down. But I always knew where it all came from and I could let it go whenever I wanted too. It all started when I begin to read, live and accept what the Bible taught. And that’s when my life was turned upside down. People want you to believe God told them to write the Bible but I know it’s not true. Two many conflicts. Too many contradictions. And too many people trying to speak for God. Tell you God wrote it, said it, in order to get you to believe it. What power we give to these writers. And we blindly follow. To thine on self be true.
@@caitlinwhitemanYes! Because there is a God and his son is the Savior of this world, and if we believe we have eternal life. We don't have to be afraid of death because Jesus is coming back for the believers and we get to live forever. It's that simple.
I was thinking the very same - that none of this life crisis would arise if people weren't indoctrinated with woo as children - and then seen through it as adults. That said, some people can shake off their indoctrination without trauma. I take on board the first reply that being raised atheist may not necessarily protect people from existential trauma either if that is an issue they cannot come to terms with.
I am currently a member of a few secular AA groups. We do a lot of wrestling with the issues you discuss, and we have a strong secular community. We do have a structure and a some ritual-esque practices. We get the urgency from the fact that we came out of the darkness of addiction and know that we have to keep working on ourselves to maintain it. A lot of us think of the community as our "power greater than ourselves." All you were saying about ego death and gender really hit home for me. AA is very male (and traditionally, very religious) in its perspective. It's all about ego squashing and working past selfishness. That can be super toxic for a lot of women and non-binary people. For that reason, I helped to start a secular AA group for women and nonbinary people only. We're able to take what works for us in the traditional AA tool basket, but acknowledge where our spiritual needs are different. Thanks for the great talk! I'll be recommending it to members of our community.
This is the most inspiring, thought provoking, impactful discussion on Mormon Stories yet for me. Thank you. I have always struggled to explain to others how I, as someone who doesn’t believe in God, can live a spiritual, meaningful, moral life. Listening to this conversation was beautiful because even without speaking, I felt understood.
I feel sort of like I never caught the train on deconstruction, because I never had anything to deconstruct. I've learned so much about the inner workings of my former LDS community and religion in general from theology class I've taken. But, no matter how far I try to remember back, even as a Pre-K child, I don't remember ever believing in the first place. It felt like an act I was going along with for other people, mainly my mother, from the getgo. We were some form of Christian before (I think Presbyterian,) and baptized LDS when I was 8, and even sharper in my memory is of that baptism, not believing even when my head was going in the water. Not believing during tearful testimonies. I guess the plus side is that I never felt I lost anything when I finally freed myself. I really feel for people who are struggling with those emotions though. I wish I could hold out a hand or something and tell these people that living without faith isn't sad or lonely or terrible. My morality is still in tact, it is shaped by the people around me and my own internal compass.
@@mormonstories I recognize that for sure. It's part of why I get a different kind of emotional for these folks on here talking about losing themselves. I am certainly no stranger to depression
Skylar Scott just spoke about his realizations about the church being a kin to The Truman Show (on his TY channel). While not my religious story, I could relate to something similar and how unbelievably jarring and earth shattering the TRUE truth actually was. I thought it was brilliant.
Taking so many notes to journal about and reflect on from this interview. Please bring Brittney back!! Her message and ideas are so important and valuable for so many people, including me ❤
When i was in The Sunken Place (for non-religous decon reasons) I found it helpful to view life from a Biological perspective. I have a child. I must get her to adulthood as a half-way decent person. I bargained with myself that if i still felt this way when that task was complete then i have every right to take a looooong dirt nap. So it really was just One day at a time. And now kids going to Law School so any hope of her being a decent person is out the window 😂. And things got better. I stayed open to these things: learning, compassion, simple pleasures, cats. Yes, cats. Some amazing humans. And today and for a long time, life is good. And when its hard, its still ok. The pendulum will swing back. But I have to be here when it does.
You must've done something right for her to get into law school. Not an easy feat. I've met a few folks who aspired to be lawyers but couldn't score near the 50th percentile on the LSAT. Future pet / cat is one of my things I'm looking forward to. I work too much to have a pet right now, but retirement isn't too far off and every day I count down the days until I get to read peacefully by the fireplace in a Pacific NW home with a cat or rabbit or both at my feet.
@lvega5606 that sounds like heaven! I find rituals around self care really enjoyable. And baking. Rabbits are so often up for adoption. You will have no problem getting your hands on one!
@lvega5606 i meant to say thank you for the compliment on my parenting and also....adopt a bonded pair when you retire and get pets. Bonded pairs are magical. And you never feel bad going out because they have each other.
about two and a half hours ago i saw a shorts clip of this and immediately clicked in. i can’t remember a moment in my life more profound and resonant than the past two and a half hours. i’ve been tiptoeing around concepts like these for the past year, but i never experienced a spiritual low, a breaking point, or even a progression into/out of nihilism. I also have little to no religious baggage (raised progressive Lutheran but never quite believed, any “deconstruction” i did was based on social issues/hypocrisy/oppression and not in philosophy) and thus, held my own beliefs about the nature of the universe (primarily agnosticism/absurdism) without a lot of emotion or a journey attached to it. I had also never heard (or even really conceptualised) such a solid, resonant, or easily communicable explanation of where I’ve ended up. I began confirmation classes at 12 with such zeal and curiosity and got confirmed feeling what i now know was profound spiritual emptiness, disappointed and angry with my church leaders and family for not having better answers, and feeling shame at myself for either not “getting it” like everyone else did or for “falling for” such an unconvincing doctrine. There was an emptiness in me, dreamt up by my own optimism at 12 and remaining sorely open for years, waiting for philosophical awe or mental peace, that I not only now SEE but i feel it being soothed and filled: just scaffolding for now, but a clearer, structured vision is infinitely better than nothing.
This is the best episode I have ever listened to. Hands down I can’t believe how much I have learned just about my own personal past experience. Thank you!
Thank you for opening underexplored questions. Yours is a premier conversation in MormonStories, tipping my balance to becoming a contributor. Bravo! Working through your interview alleviated several of my severe stress symptoms. Our paths differ in a healthy way. Your Western mind traces deconstruction to nihilism. A little bit of Buddhism gave me a different path: after I take everything out of my mind that was put there by somebody else, I have ORIGINAL MIND (not the VOID). That shows up in our reactions: you undertook READING (outer substance), I turned to WRITING (inner substance). Helping people be what they are coincides with the premise of my humanist blog: “studying the material helps you mature your own unique world.” Applied to deconstructing Christianity, having ORIGINAL MIND (Buddhism doesn’t like the word “self”) makes “being saved” meaningless. My reality originates inside me, and I have always sensed it is not a void.
I grew up with a mother who turned away from the Greek orthodox church. She basically was an atheist. So I grew up with no religion, which I felt cheated. At 59, I find myself using bits and pieces from various religions, including science. Buddism is what I mainly practice. I'm glad I listened to this podcast. We are all on a journey. There is no right or wrong.
Religion is what cheats humanity. One crappy useless religion is just as useless as any other. Religion is wrong....but its has lessons, same as any other experience.
@@zxultrviolet370 Why waste your time with any filthy religion? Bouncing from Mormon to Atheist to Christian is a lot of bouncing around. since your trying to discover ansers that cant be answered by any of these false practices...why not just meditate and connect to your spirit guides? they have your answers. you will have to meet them halfway...
Wow! This framed so much of my midlife crisis for me. I think of it as my list in transition journey. You have given me words to express my experience and continued journey.
I am so glad we are talking about this, especially with all the amazing people who now subscribe to this channel and are listening. It's needed...NOW!!! Thank you so very much. This is/was real for many of us. To feel so dark, darker than the dark night of the soul is hard to put words to. When you come through, it's like taking a full breath for the first time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I've watched up until 1:35:28 and I can relate so much to Brittney's journey/ story. I used to watch Mormon Stories all the time when I first left the church ten years ago. It helped me work through a lot. But the last few years I've just kind of barely gotten by in life, with lots of drinking. Hearing someone has gone through what you have and is now thriving is invaluable so thank you for creating this. This kind of thing starts stirring something in me (like Neo in the Matrix) that more can be done to help in the world than just resign myself to an accounting job I hate etc. etc. Thank you for stirring my soul today❤
I recognize your grappling with nihilism so much. Having been raised by an atheist & an agnostic meant facing those thoughts for the first time during childhood. Thank you for sharing the philosophers who have written about the topic. As dark thoughts rear their ugly heads I will have these authors to walk with me instead of ruminating alone.
I thought, as an exmo, the miracle of our planet and human evolution so profound, taking any god out of the picture made me happy. I’m glad to don’t have to think about after death anymore. Sure, I miss people I’ve lost and keep them in my thoughts. One day I hope I’ll be remembered. I had no idea others felt such depression. Initially, I was angry about having been lied to. I had a middle period of being Christian and then agnostic before I totally deconstructed. About 14 years. My son’s atheist beliefs made it easier for me to look into information without feeling guilty. I felt released from all the requirements religion put on my mind and just happy to experience living. Life is a beautiful gift. Millions of years occurred and life happened. We are part of it. How awesome. I’m happy about this episode with Brittney on Mormon Stories bringing awareness of others experiences when losing their beliefs with her story and resources. ❤
Thank you, Brittney. I think, yes, the individual and the collective create “God.” This has always been the truth in the Atman/Brahman concept of Vendata Buddhism (which to me is not a religion but a philosophy.) Also I so related to this. Raised catholic, I am an enneagram 4/5 and spent many years as a self defined “Christian/catholic mystic.” (I loved the comment that enneagram is more so a trauma response than a true personality “test.” 😂) 2020 sort of blew my connection to my Catholic/Christian mystic self definition out of the water and I went back to my studying of Hinduism and Buddhism as more refined philosophical and spiritual schools of thought. Meditation has been my life raft. Also recognizing that the concept of reincarnation is scientific in the sense that nothing ever disappears from the earth it is just reformatted, therefore suicide is not a solution since you just come back in another form until you learn the lesson… plus it just passes pain from one living form to another. (In my opinion.) Gosh this all sounds so neat and sterile as a TH-cam comment but I figured I would share it anyway. In reality this is a heartbreaking and heart opening life journey and a daily, definitively moment to moment practice.
Ran across this on the exmo subreddit and knew I had to watch this episode. Only halfway through and I feel such kinship with Brittney and her experiences. Coincidentally I found we are of similar personality types. Brittney, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Your words have brought me to tears, both of joy and of sadness. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
My exit from Evangelical Christianity many decades ago left me "agnostic", it took me about 10 years until I realized that I was athiest. But it was 'easier' for me because my exit was spurred by the wholesale hypocritical nature of church elders that I noticed as a young man. It allowed me to realize that what I believed were right and wrong hinged on how I believed people should be treated. That meant that there was basically "no god needed" for me, so I call it "easy"
There are secular choirs. Some have focuses- such as Latinx composers. My mom belonged to a couple of them. Definitely singing in a group can be a spiritual experience- when you feel the combined energy of the voices. I remember getting that feeling in my high school choir much more than the church choir.
This episode made me feel hopeful for the first time in a very long time. Brittany's story so closely mirrors my own and I'm so happy to know that there is love and light on the other side of an existential crisis. Thank you all!
This was incredibly relatable. I think I'll show this to my nevermo spouse to help her understand how I landed in nihilism. And so she can more fully understand the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful living in that space.
My precious, yet mentally ill son, sadly took his own life. one of his most common mentions was nihilistic, and severely negative. The trauma around the things he spewed was unbelievably painful to live around.
Sadly this is a possible outcome for that. If you have nothing to live for, then why live. And the opposite: God will forgive me and hold me, so why live in pain. I’m so sorry for your loss. I know this never completely heals. And I hope you have a good safety net around you.♥️🫂
Though I come from a Christian deconstruction, I identify so much. I was the leader, thinker and being the rebel was my identity. I completely agree with the feeling of being in the video game and put one foot in front of the other because it was important to those around me. I still feel that way a bit, but glad to know I am not alone. Thank you for sharing and for your work!
Please add a trigger warning to the beginning of this video. Some people are on the fence with their lives and need to be aware of the heavy context in this video. On a side note, Brittney I was 11 when I started to experience nihilism in my own thoughts. It's been many years of figuring it all out on my own too. You're not alone, just one of many. Thank you for being so open and honest; you are sharing your experiences and being so genuine which is going to be a game-changer for many. Thank you. Edit: Yes I started young. I didn't believe in the church by the time I was 15 but had to attend.
We probably crossed paths a few times at BYU-I, Brittney. (I was class of ‘07.) I think we hung out on opposite sides of campus though. Your insights are excellent, and very relevant to me at this point in my faith deconstruction. Thank you for sharing.
Oh my gosh this episode has been my favorite, its very heavy but i relate to so much of the process and i grew up evangelical and the part of the ego for women is literally what i need to hear. Ive been trying to understand the death of the ego and not understanding why i couldn’t relate. Thank you so much. Please bring her back on!!!!!!!!!
I was just telling my sister that I feel like I can deconstruct anything now, but it leaves me unable to have a feeling of building anything of actual meaning. How can I build when there’s a notion that it can be taken apart. It’s not a feeling that is easily expressed or understood by others. I feel like I’ve been in a void for awhile. I’m definitely buying the book.
What an amazing episode. Brittney is so well read, knowledgeable, and so easy to listen to. She takes all these philosophies and spins them in such an easily understandable way. Thank you for sharing your journey and your experiences. This has been SO helpful and a great stepping stone for my own reconstruction
Nihilism played a crucial role in my recovery from the most challenging period of my life. In contrast, Mormonism not only failed to provide assistance but also proved to be draining. My parents are gradually reassessing their beliefs, and I believe this experience will contribute significantly to their well-being.
Brittney is an unceasing well of knowledge and wisdom! Please bring your podcast in on TH-cam, and co-host with Margi , you both would complete and complement each other in spreading the knowledge beyond borders !
I've been enjoying your content for a few months at least now. This episode prompted me to join as a member! What a beautiful discussion! Very excited to learn about Brittney Hartley and many of the topics discussed here. Thank you John!
Amazing story. Amazing woman. Amazing family. I loved Brittney's reformulation of church structure and spirituality by use of regular story telling, walks in nature and so on. And yes, practical philosophy can be a great anchor point during dark times. It provides the rocks to help a person climb out of the hole.
I so appreciate this episode and have had so many thoughts and insights while listening. Towards the end when Brittney is discussing spirituality and ego dissolution for men vs women (noting that I understood her to be speaking about her client base and post religious folks who were socialized and conditioned into the gender binary), that really hit me. Deeply. As someone who's practiced yoga and meditation for 13 years, seated meditation hasn't really done it for me. And as someone who left the LDS church 8 years ago, I definitely leaned on my yoga practice to be my safe space during my deconstruction. I do have to say, I hope that conversation has more to it and just didn't have the space to be more developed and fleshed out. Not every individual who identifies as or who has been socialized as a woman is a mother, and the fact that that wasn't mentioned felt short sighted to me. I still was very much conditioned to put others first at the expense of my own needs, wants, desires and comfort, even if im not changing diapers in the early hours of the morning.
I am so glad I waited until 2:34 to comment, because I was rolling my eyes and thinking, woman, you just made your own religion. She made her own life structures that is in religion, but without the liturgies. It sounds like religion of a group. And it is good she founded her way to happiness. God is not for everyone. She is very intelligent, and mindful in her remarks, love smart people. I am a women of faith, and she is right, I suffer to much trauma to make big adjustments in my life and beliefs. I don’t drink, or use drugs, but depression and trauma, even with treatment isn’t going away.
You sound narrow minded and judgey. Why roll your eyes? We are all coming up with our own religion. As soon as we all realize the Mormon church we were spoon fed since birth is a big fraud, we find our own way the best we can. I went from a believing Mormon to an atheist in about two hours. I totally understand trying to find anything to believe in. Any meaning in life. I don’t believe in any Heavenly Father, but I’m trying to find transcendence where I can.
Commenting because I want this to reach as many people that are going through this as possible because it is exactly something I needed, and still need, myself ❤
I really enjoyed this podcast. Brittany's perspective is really life and self-affirming and it couldn't have resonated with me more. I'm a never-mo with a practising converted sibling that I haven't had contact with for 20 years. I hope that either the church still serves a useful and meaningful purpose for then, or that they get out safely one day.
It is a hard journey and I respect her for discussing it so openly. In her escape from God I cannot help but notice she is just switching one God for another. Instead of the LDS God, she is now worshipping the God of self-actualization, progressiveness, and "the good life".
Not the case. A religious person must say that worship transitions to a new God when it has been lost. Here, no worship is being done; just a switch from acting in a way that is commanded from some high power to acting in a way that is the most beneficial to oneself and others. It isn’t worship, any more than an animal with no knowledge of God worships shelter and survival. To act progressively is not to worship the god of progressiveness, but to deny the idea of a being who commands good deeds, and to do them anyway.
@@Cominsjc I hate to "deconstruct" (considering the challenges of deconstruction that Brittney highlights in the video) your view of what religion is, what it means to worship, or for that matter what can serve as God but here are a few thoughts. According to the Google dictionary, while religion can be certainly defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods" it can also be defined as a "thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god." Likewise, while worship can be defined as "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity" it can also be defined as "adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle." Finally, while God can be defined as "(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being" it also can be defined as a "thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god." In other words, while people can worship "Gods" in the way some traditional religions do, they can also worship other things like principles, ideals, and things. We can worship money, compassion, self-actualization, progressiveness, "the good life", nature, statues, rationality, social justice, etc. etc. as long they are placed in a level of supreme importance in our lives or we show "adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage" toward these ideas or principles. Whether you call it "God" or not, if you have ideal or principle in your life which guides and directs your behavior much like belief in "God" would do for theists then the ideal or principle has essentially become a "God" for you.
Very similar experience, former bishop, the only person in my family who left, my ex-wife went deeper into Mormonism, I was suicidal through my faith crisis. The only thing that kept me here was my kids. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. It is super inspiring and helpful.
I love this episode so much!!! I had such a similar experience with deconstruction/nihilism. I too journeyed through philosophy to find answers and find a reason to keep living. I literally found the exact same philosopher (Albert Camus) and read The Myth of Sisyphus, and it totally pulled me out of my existential funk. I’ve never listened to an episode that so directly mirrored my own experience. Thank you Brittney!
As a former-Christian-turned-Agnostic, I'm troubled by her certainty about uncertain things. Hubris kills, sometimes literally, as demonstrated by the "nearly literally" of her two-year suicidal state. Because of this, it's important to distinguish between what we can know and what we cannot, especially when unfounded certainty about things we cannot know - the incomprehensible, the unverifiable, the prohibitively complex - all inescapable aspects of existence - begins to drive us to despair. Intellectual humility is an essential component of intellectual honesty. Without it, we put ourselves and those we love (unnecessarily) at risk.
Looks like John and RFM are having some kind of beard growing competition... A type of "beard-off" of sorts. This should be fun to see how this progresses.🎅
This was by far my favorite interview that you’ve done. I’m an Atheopagan and often find it hard to find people who grasp the “spiritual, non-superstitious, atheist” thing. This was juicy!! 🙏💕🔥
Once in an AA meeting i got the best advice that changed my life..."If you dont have a loving God, fire him and get a new one". I took it one step further (as members of my exclusive club tend to do!) and made up my iwn religion based on The Golden Rule and daily prayer to "Sky Daddy". It was a short trip from there to absurdism.
Love her so much, I first found Brittany on tik tok and I am so happy I get to hear the whole story here behind your brilliant, compassionate mind ❤ I relate some to this even though I deconstructed from Christianity. I find it really important for myself to learn about other regions and peoples stories out of them.
I am currently in my "dark nigh of the soul" phase, while also grieving the me that could have been like John described. This episode finally gave me the words to describe how I am feeling, especially with the deconstruction of how is religion even as things, and why does humanity keep coming back to this.
This is my favorite interview so far. I absolutely love her TikTok channel. I relate with, and connect so much with what she says. I have considered myself staunch atheist for years, but my job, as a phytochemist and herbalist, keeps me tethered to New Age spirituality because of how a lot of people view herbs and stones, etc. I have never believed in the spiritual aspects of the earth, or witchcraft, but I still have rituals I do in my life, simply because they make me feel better. I’ve always felt like a bit of an imposter for doing that, but it was comforting to hear that rituals do actually help us move past certain mind blocks, even if we know they are not magical or real! Anyway, such a good interview. Thank you!
I am 75. This is the first time I've found someone who understands who I am, and what I've been dealing with. Thank you.
This is the most mind opening MS episode ever. It goes beyond just deconstructing Mormonism.
Monsters of the void... What a concept
Amazing interview. I am so appreciative of this. I deconstructed from a fundamental religion and then replaced it with AA. I did an ayahuasca ceremony and went into nileism. Everything's g was just as she said. Nothing g had meaning anymore. No one could understand when I said nothing matters to me anymore. In some ways I felt enlightened and didn't feel that was depression. Everyone was saying "find a hobby" it was laughable. Finally I had someone reach out to me on Facebook and said "look for the magic" it saved me. I started looking for moments that felt beautiful and magical. I have found meaning in people. And that's what I needed. Thank you so much for putting words to this. So much love ❤️
It saddens me people think an atheist can’t have love and empathy. I say it’s human nature to do the right thing :)
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Becoming atheist at once is not bad at all.. it's an opportunity to exercising mind, desires and option Until to become theism, because you understood God's exist. If you can pass his understandimg and end quote. Nihilism is my experience too bacause God did not testify of their works and I cannot act me to condemn bacause I had the right to act./re.act.
I'd even argue that the opposite can be true. My in-laws are as mormon as they come, and the only thing driving them to do the right thing is their belief that God wants them to do the right thing. They have zero internal drive, so they only do what they think they're supposed to, without a drop of actual empathy.
@@audrawells1383 93 MILLION! And, yes the great big families, money, security, etc. can be great big fun. But, end of day & all day long, WHO IS THAT IN THE MIRROR you are FORCED TO CAREFULLY LOOK AT because you must "Put on a little lipstick" as BALLARD famously snarled. Who is behind those eyes with 2" lashes and shadow caked in those poor old wrinkly lids?
Who? What? When? Where?
W H Y?
You-do Voodoo.
And what exactly is the “right” thing?
Every time she drops a truth of hers I literally have been saying “holy f**k” because this person is finally able to put into words the experience I’m going through now..
when she talks about “knowing too much” and anything along those lines hit me deep, especially when she mentioned not wanting to share this, because I don’t wish this emptiness feeling upon anyone..
Edit to add: this interview gave me the feeling of community. It’s good to know I’m not alone.
“knowing too much”?? how can you know too much?? does she preach ignorance? i cant listen to her anymore....
This surprisingly is ONE of the BEST podcasts ever. I was not raised Mormon but was raised in a dominant Mormon community in southern Idaho and wound up teaching high school and building a beautiful home in a deep Mormon community. We finally left. We are traumatized. I’m thinking I should give you guys some $$$, been thinking that for some time. Even though having lived through the worst hatred that comes from Mormons, I have learned so much from Mormon Stories. These learning sessions help me understand how and why committed Mormons come across as so hateful. I think it would be useful for you to find people like me who have been abused by Mormons in order to show how negative the religion is in so many ways. Meanwhile, I will mull giving $$$ to you. Right now I tithe animal charities. (I grew up Catholic, which is not much different than Mormonism.) Good Luck. LOVE and NEED your endeavor.
I hope you are able to share your experiences & insights, as I’m sure they’d be very interesting & relevant. In addition to Mormon Stories, there’s also Cults to Consciousness (& others).
Catholic is not even close to mormon.
I read your message, and sorry you got abused (was it culturally, verbally, etc)? Idaho is a beautiful place still though - and sorry some people gave you a bad experience.
I so much agree with you. I have been studying the diversity of spirituality for many years and even so, Brittany really pulled it together for me. I am calling myself a secular spiritualist, informed by what I study in particle physics (quantum consciousness; and the information field).
We are not alone! (quote from the TH-cam movie "Aliens" about visitors from another planet, starring Gillian Anderson).
@@nute742 All of the above, but when my kids became threatened physically over and over, things had to change.
Brittney gave me so much validation for the the journey I've been on. I regularly say "I don't know, I grew up in a cult, so now I just make it up as I go along." One day at time is my favorite mantra.😘✌️
One day at a time is a beautiful way.
Pride
Hmm?@@queendove6376
I'm not Mormon. I grew up Seventh-day Adventist. But except for the name of the prophet, we may as well have been raised in the same church. I find Mormon Stories to be so helpful. May the Universe bless you.
I went to an SDA school and my best friends are all ex sda from that same school, almost a decade later. I was always surprised by both the similarities and differences between both LDS & SDA. I was brought up Mormon
Me too. I deconstructed from being raised Seventh day Adventist. Then deconstructed from AA. Then spired into nileism. Found meaning in people. That's all that matters. It's enough. ❤
This woman is BRILLANT! Love her work, and knowledge of how she recreated her life from the ground up! I'm hoping she writes a book! Exceptional person, who is knowledgeable upon losing one's faith, and has totally transformed her life! ❤
I always love Margi’s comments! You can tell she is both incredibly well trained and also a thoughtful, genuine human.
I absolutely love Margi!! ❤❤❤
I so love and respect Margi! So wise and thoughtful and in tune ....
Amen!
What a great episode. Brittney seems like the best person to hang out with. I didn't get to talk to anyone like this until like 4th year of my Religion degree. We finally found each other then it was all over. Great episode. Brittney is amazing.
I would love another Brit podcast where she takes us through recommended reading and all her books she read on her journey.
I second this one!
I third one.
Yes!
This would be so helpful.
I'm extremely grateful that I got out of my cult pentecostal church when I was still young. Now I'm 22 and going through all of the same things Brittney did, and I found this channel (but especially this video) just when I'm in the trenches of nihilism. Super happy that I have resources like this to help me set a great secular spiritual foundation for my life! Thanks John and Margi, as a nevermo from New Zealand I'm finding so much worth in your podcast. Lots of love 💗💗
I am only halfway through and I’ve cried three times. She is expressing exactly what I have been experiencing but havent been able to share with anyone. I will listen to this episode again and again. Thank you❤
I highly recommend the Thrive Stories series hosted by Margi
I came here to say this exact same thing. It’s so heartening to feel so seen. ❤
This episode is a watershed moment for me as I am at a nihilistic crossroads/cliff in post-Mormonism and this is “Heaven-sent” (if such a thing existed). Literally what I needed to hear when I needed to hear it as I am exhausted from the treadmill of wondering about the “why” of everything and trying to find meaning in the chaos and the infinite void. Literally a paradigm shift for me as I listen to this and it feels like there is some hope to find value and purpose and meaning in this absolute absurdity of life. Thank you for sharing. I’ll be listening to you and Bill Reel and diving into this brave new world.
I really loved this. So many points at which I wanted to give her a standing ovation.
I nearly jumped out of my skin when I saw this video! Brittney has been huge for me in my ex-Christan journey and I cannot WAIT to listen to this at least three times!!
My sound went out for part of it. Yikes...
I'm so glad!
@@mormonstories Just set up my monthly donation! Thank you for the work you do!
I'm adding to the many comments. I literally texted my sister that I had found my new religion. I am so looking forward to connect with other people who resonated with this. Edited to add: I've been watching mormon stories for 4-5 years and just became a subscriber because of this episode.
It's so helpful isn't it? Although not a religion🙂
cannot begin to tell you how much I appreciate this interview. i’m an hour in and I feel like my soul has been given this warm hug and is just being held and comforted. I can’t wait to continue and finish. if she is taking new clients I would love to work with her.
The first person who voiced the exact same thing I'm going through! Thank you so very much!
I was actually stuck in nihlism last month and felt like nothing I did in this life even matters. I could make an art project but eventually I'll be dead anyway so who cares. I was so far removed from the now that I couldn't see a point to any of it. I ended up seeing a tiktok about pulling back in and stop thinking so far out. I think thinking Celestial all those years as a mormon kid didn't help. I'm super glad to be hearing this podcast, ITS BEEN SUPER HELPFUL! Especially the part about creating your own rituals cuz apparently as humans we need them. I can see that now after this interview. It also helped me understand my parents that are still in, why theyd reject the history and instead choose to stay. It clearly benifits them in thier life just not my own and THATS OK.
Yeah, that's something I fail to understand. I believe that the core of Christianity is true, but if I somehow found out that it wasn't, I could very easily be an optimistic nihilist, but it seems that isn't the case for most people. They just have this insatiable need to feel like they're a part of something bigger than themselves, so if they lose their faith, they just latch onto a new belief system that's just as dogmatic as the one they left, albeit usually in different ways. If the truth claims of any particular belief system are indeed true, then that's one thing, but if they're not, then I couldn't imagine any benefit coming from it.
Thank you for talking about this. I love these discussions. Not many people have deconstructed to this degree and it's a weird place to be, but super important to discuss.
This episode is just what I needed. A perfect episode and has become my new favorite episode of all time! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
During my divorce I had a funeral for my marriage. Thomas Moore in A Religion of One’s Own, suggests creating your own liturgical calendar. That has been fun and helpful too. I have relatives who participate in some of that liturgical calendar.
I thought I was just teetering on the edge of depression yet again because of recent circumstances. But it is deeper than that and has been building up for longer than that, since having my beliefs turned upside down and no longer having a purpose. After journaling last night, I realize I've actually been trying to outrun and distract myself from despair and nihilism building up under the surface. Now that I know what it is, I don't think I can ignore it anymore. Trying not to cry right now, I've been trying to look like I'm "okay" for the people around me this whole time, and I don't feel safe going into it yet. It's too heavy. I know exactly the feelings of dissociation that Brittney talks about here. She was right about clinging to things like NDE afterwards, but I'm afraid of trusting those or any spiritual path now too...
I just want to say thank you for having Brittany on. I’m grateful to feel not alone in this difficult journey of deconstruction and nihilism. I already feel some hope after the hopelessness! Knowing there are resources to help me with this process is life changing. And thanks to John and Margie!
We have three generations struggling with nihilism. Considering the option of suicide has been a daily ritual for me. Ironically, this has been motivational for me because it makes me consider the value of life in the most stark manner possible. Queue The Myth of Sisyphus (Albert Camus) and my outlook changed from nihilism to absurdism.
Totally hear ya, hang in there and see the drama of the human story, even though it just a small part. I have a feeling that death will be really anti-climatic so enjoy the show while it lasts.
Absurdism is a logical progression from nihilism. It gives meaninglessness the middle finger.
ya just need to visit the otherside sometime...
I relate so much with Brittney about her experience with nihilism. Camus paved the way out of existential crisis for me as well. But it happened way before when I had been writing my final paper in high school. (We had a great philosophy teacher). The idea of absurdism was what really did something for me. I still often struggle with the fear of death and meaningless of life but the concept of existence based on experiences brings me peace every time.
I love this channel. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness. It is very helpful to me as an ex cult member. Keep up the good work guys. Your guests leave me watching for hours and cannot pull away. This one is as brilliant as the last. (Elissa Wall)
“I don’t see God in this anymore”. This amazing woman has spoken my thoughts that I’ve not quite made solid, myself. I appreciate this SO much, Brittney. You are so smart. You make me miss my mom. She converted when I was about 6 -7 in Indiana! Margie was also raised out here, I think, and she has credited her ability to “see” to having non member family members and normalcy around her. I, too, am so grateful for my beer drinking grandma Barb! Haha. ❤️ Back to my mom…the most intelligent woman I ever knew. She and her best friend were maybe 25-26 in Relief Society, both with 3
kids, and they were asked to write down what they were most grateful for on paper, privately. They then shared their answers around the room and Mom’s answer was: My brain. Her bestie laughed and opened her paper to show her answer: My brain. These two women had these conversations w one another. Deep conversations. This story about my mom means so much to me. Although I’ve experienced a ridiculous amount of shame, guilt, anger as compared to my friends (non members), I am incredibly grateful for never having experienced The Truman Show. I am ex-mo and floundering a bit. I’ve deconstructed to the point that I honestly have not a clue where my parents are or why I’m delaying death. I’m now 52. 3 yummy young adult kids that are my reason. Divorced. Single. Isolated. When my parents died (2015 &18) I had a type of Truman experience, but lesser. Your words were like old friends, Brittney. Thank you so much. ❤️ Thanks John & Margie 🤗
Thank you so much for the honesty and insight! So much to relate to in this.
I think that many of us who've left high-control religions get stuck in a place of skepticism and cynicism that is very, very lonely and isolating, and we stay there for such a long time. Condemned by, and unable to relate to the community we used to know, and yet lacking any formal structures or insights that enable one to move forward emotionally. The well founded skepticism developed from long exposure to the "loving" manipulations of a high-control belief system dominate, and those hyper-active spiritual antibodies can pump through the system for years! I did not think of this as Nihilism, but the connection is clear.
Real spiritual growth is human growth, and that is an individual journey that each person must take, but I really appreciate knowing that there is a larger community out there thinking about and talking about this. I loved this statement from the video: “Rejection of life as a big grand story and narrative, to life worth living at the level of experience.”
I have to say, I love how she's taking up space in this conversation. If she has something to say she's going to say it. She doesn't allow herself to be interrupted. That is something that is uncomfortable when you first see it in a woman, but I'm loving this.
Absolutely agree, it's so inspiring. Love her so much
My entire life as I knew it is GONE. This is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you!!
Margi, thank you for giving words to that feeling of your loved one being unreachable. I am so sad and so comforted to hear that in relationships, a partner seeming unreachable. . . happens. . . no matter how much you try. I don’t want anyone to relate to this feeling, and I didn’t realize how much I needed to know that it wasn’t just me.
As someone who grew up without religion in a society where I had little to no interactions with religious people (or at least it never came up), I find Mormon stories, SPTV and other YT channels so fascinating because I just can't wrap my head around some of the concepts and beliefs.
Many of the issues of nihilism that Brittney faced in her faith crisis, I guess I "faced" as a young child although I don't remember them causing me any trauma because I had never learned about my great religious purpose in life before that. So for some reason the great existential fears never came to overwhelm me because I didn't examine them all at once as a adult, I probably thought about some of them for half a day as a 6 year old when my grandmother died, and about others at a different time. It's very interesting to think about how little this bothered/bothers me because I was never taught anything else. However, I can imagine how harsh and traumatic reality might feel if you grew up with a beautiful fairytale that put a protective umbrella over your life and made you feel like you were superior to others and had this amazing higher purpose in life.
Very interesting to learn about Brittney's experience.
I was raised an atheist and I have actually felt deep and enduring existential terror from a very young age. I remember laying in my bed alone thinking about not wanting to die and wishing I could believe in a god at like 5 or so. I'm 40 and that melancholy and (if I let myself think about it) terror has never left me. I think it's probably more about personality types than the ideology you're raised with. Although I can see how losing a belief in God as an adult could be more identity-destroying.
Thanks for your comment and I am sorry to hear about your existential fears. Now that I'm thinking about it, I am also a hyper careful person in life, which is probably due to the fact that I'm quite convinced that death is the end of my life and consciousness. This seems to be opposite to the willingness to take risks that Brittney experiences.
So it's not that I'm not scared of the death of loved ones or my own, but it's not something that consumes my life and I don't think anyone would be able to convince me that anything happened after death to mitigate those rather rational worries.
Lots of interesting, thought provoking ideas in this episode!
I went through some harrowing spiritual experiences but I also had another member in my spirit too that was more centered as I begin to learn why there was so many religions.
My journey was exciting and frightening at times. The good news and what I continued to hold on to, was who I was prior to my journey. I knew I had more peace, less judgment, I was very kind and felt I had more control over my body, appetite, mouth and mind. I had many friends and many people who loved my company. Now everything has been flipped upside down. But I always knew where it all came from and I could let it go whenever I wanted too. It all started when I begin to read, live and accept what the Bible taught. And that’s when my life was turned upside down.
People want you to believe God told them to write the Bible but I know it’s not true. Two many conflicts. Too many contradictions. And too many people trying to speak for God. Tell you God wrote it, said it, in order to get you to believe it. What power we give to these writers. And we blindly follow.
To thine on self be true.
@@caitlinwhitemanYes! Because there is a God and his son is the Savior of this world, and if we believe we have eternal life. We don't have to be afraid of death because Jesus is coming back for the believers and we get to live forever. It's that simple.
I was thinking the very same - that none of this life crisis would arise if people weren't indoctrinated with woo as children - and then seen through it as adults. That said, some people can shake off their indoctrination without trauma. I take on board the first reply that being raised atheist may not necessarily protect people from existential trauma either if that is an issue they cannot come to terms with.
I’ve been listening to Mormon stories since 2008. This episode resonated with me more than any other episode.
Yay!!! She’s my favorite. Her wisdom is so comforting and rational and also hopeful.❤ I just love her. ❤❤❤❤
I am currently a member of a few secular AA groups. We do a lot of wrestling with the issues you discuss, and we have a strong secular community. We do have a structure and a some ritual-esque practices. We get the urgency from the fact that we came out of the darkness of addiction and know that we have to keep working on ourselves to maintain it. A lot of us think of the community as our "power greater than ourselves." All you were saying about ego death and gender really hit home for me. AA is very male (and traditionally, very religious) in its perspective. It's all about ego squashing and working past selfishness. That can be super toxic for a lot of women and non-binary people. For that reason, I helped to start a secular AA group for women and nonbinary people only. We're able to take what works for us in the traditional AA tool basket, but acknowledge where our spiritual needs are different.
Thanks for the great talk! I'll be recommending it to members of our community.
This is the most inspiring, thought provoking, impactful discussion on Mormon Stories yet for me. Thank you. I have always struggled to explain to others how I, as someone who doesn’t believe in God, can live a spiritual, meaningful, moral life. Listening to this conversation was beautiful because even without speaking, I felt understood.
I feel sort of like I never caught the train on deconstruction, because I never had anything to deconstruct. I've learned so much about the inner workings of my former LDS community and religion in general from theology class I've taken. But, no matter how far I try to remember back, even as a Pre-K child, I don't remember ever believing in the first place. It felt like an act I was going along with for other people, mainly my mother, from the getgo. We were some form of Christian before (I think Presbyterian,) and baptized LDS when I was 8, and even sharper in my memory is of that baptism, not believing even when my head was going in the water. Not believing during tearful testimonies. I guess the plus side is that I never felt I lost anything when I finally freed myself. I really feel for people who are struggling with those emotions though. I wish I could hold out a hand or something and tell these people that living without faith isn't sad or lonely or terrible. My morality is still in tact, it is shaped by the people around me and my own internal compass.
You are fortunate in this regard.
@@mormonstories I recognize that for sure. It's part of why I get a different kind of emotional for these folks on here talking about losing themselves. I am certainly no stranger to depression
Skylar Scott just spoke about his realizations about the church being a kin to The Truman Show (on his TY channel). While not my religious story, I could relate to something similar and how unbelievably jarring and earth shattering the TRUE truth actually was. I thought it was brilliant.
That wad a great video. He's special for sure.
Taking so many notes to journal about and reflect on from this interview. Please bring Brittney back!! Her message and ideas are so important and valuable for so many people, including me ❤
How about this Monday!!!!
@@mormonstories WOOHOO!! 🫶🏻
When i was in The Sunken Place (for non-religous decon reasons) I found it helpful to view life from a Biological perspective. I have a child. I must get her to adulthood as a half-way decent person. I bargained with myself that if i still felt this way when that task was complete then i have every right to take a looooong dirt nap. So it really was just One day at a time. And now kids going to Law School so any hope of her being a decent person is out the window 😂. And things got better. I stayed open to these things: learning, compassion, simple pleasures, cats. Yes, cats. Some amazing humans. And today and for a long time, life is good. And when its hard, its still ok. The pendulum will swing back. But I have to be here when it does.
You must've done something right for her to get into law school. Not an easy feat. I've met a few folks who aspired to be lawyers but couldn't score near the 50th percentile on the LSAT. Future pet / cat is one of my things I'm looking forward to. I work too much to have a pet right now, but retirement isn't too far off and every day I count down the days until I get to read peacefully by the fireplace in a Pacific NW home with a cat or rabbit or both at my feet.
@lvega5606 that sounds like heaven! I find rituals around self care really enjoyable. And baking. Rabbits are so often up for adoption. You will have no problem getting your hands on one!
@lvega5606 i meant to say thank you for the compliment on my parenting and also....adopt a bonded pair when you retire and get pets. Bonded pairs are magical. And you never feel bad going out because they have each other.
about two and a half hours ago i saw a shorts clip of this and immediately clicked in. i can’t remember a moment in my life more profound and resonant than the past two and a half hours.
i’ve been tiptoeing around concepts like these for the past year, but i never experienced a spiritual low, a breaking point, or even a progression into/out of nihilism. I also have little to no religious baggage (raised progressive Lutheran but never quite believed, any “deconstruction” i did was based on social issues/hypocrisy/oppression and not in philosophy) and thus, held my own beliefs about the nature of the universe (primarily agnosticism/absurdism) without a lot of emotion or a journey attached to it. I had also never heard (or even really conceptualised) such a solid, resonant, or easily communicable explanation of where I’ve ended up.
I began confirmation classes at 12 with such zeal and curiosity and got confirmed feeling what i now know was profound spiritual emptiness, disappointed and angry with my church leaders and family for not having better answers, and feeling shame at myself for either not “getting it” like everyone else did or for “falling for” such an unconvincing doctrine. There was an emptiness in me, dreamt up by my own optimism at 12 and remaining sorely open for years, waiting for philosophical awe or mental peace, that I not only now SEE but i feel it being soothed and filled: just scaffolding for now, but a clearer, structured vision is infinitely better than nothing.
Brittany is such a good guest!!!! She has seriously changed my mindset 🤯
This is the best episode I have ever listened to. Hands down I can’t believe how much I have learned just about my own personal past experience. Thank you!
Thank you for opening underexplored questions. Yours is a premier conversation in MormonStories, tipping my balance to becoming a contributor. Bravo! Working through your interview alleviated several of my severe stress symptoms. Our paths differ in a healthy way. Your Western mind traces deconstruction to nihilism. A little bit of Buddhism gave me a different path: after I take everything out of my mind that was put there by somebody else, I have ORIGINAL MIND (not the VOID). That shows up in our reactions: you undertook READING (outer substance), I turned to WRITING (inner substance). Helping people be what they are coincides with the premise of my humanist blog: “studying the material helps you mature your own unique world.” Applied to deconstructing Christianity, having ORIGINAL MIND (Buddhism doesn’t like the word “self”) makes “being saved” meaningless. My reality originates inside me, and I have always sensed it is not a void.
This was SO GREAT! I really appreciated Margi’s questions ok this one♥️
I grew up with a mother who turned away from the Greek orthodox church. She basically was an atheist. So I grew up with no religion, which I felt cheated. At 59, I find myself using bits and pieces from various religions, including science. Buddism is what I mainly practice. I'm glad I listened to this podcast. We are all on a journey. There is no right or wrong.
Religion is what cheats humanity. One crappy useless religion is just as useless as any other. Religion is wrong....but its has lessons, same as any other experience.
lol, might wanna look back, im exmormon to atheist to russian orthodox christian
@@zxultrviolet370 Why waste your time with any filthy religion? Bouncing from Mormon to Atheist to Christian is a lot of bouncing around. since your trying to discover ansers that cant be answered by any of these false practices...why not just meditate and connect to your spirit guides? they have your answers. you will have to meet them halfway...
Buddha was an idiot. its redeeming quality is that it teaches mediation. Meditate to connect and you will find your answers.
Wow! This framed so much of my midlife crisis for me. I think of it as my list in transition journey. You have given me words to express my experience and continued journey.
I so love Margy's presence and always thoughtful contributions. Wonderful part of the team.
I am so glad we are talking about this, especially with all the amazing people who now subscribe to this channel and are listening. It's needed...NOW!!! Thank you so very much. This is/was real for many of us. To feel so dark, darker than the dark night of the soul is hard to put words to. When you come through, it's like taking a full breath for the first time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
High five! ✋ Brittney Hartley, you have blown my mind!
I've watched up until 1:35:28 and I can relate so much to Brittney's journey/ story. I used to watch Mormon Stories all the time when I first left the church ten years ago. It helped me work through a lot. But the last few years I've just kind of barely gotten by in life, with lots of drinking. Hearing someone has gone through what you have and is now thriving is invaluable so thank you for creating this. This kind of thing starts stirring something in me (like Neo in the Matrix) that more can be done to help in the world than just resign myself to an accounting job I hate etc. etc. Thank you for stirring my soul today❤
I recognize your grappling with nihilism so much. Having been raised by an atheist & an agnostic meant facing those thoughts for the first time during childhood. Thank you for sharing the philosophers who have written about the topic. As dark thoughts rear their ugly heads I will have these authors to walk with me instead of ruminating alone.
I thought, as an exmo, the miracle of our planet and human evolution so profound, taking any god out of the picture made me happy. I’m glad to don’t have to think about after death anymore. Sure, I miss people I’ve lost and keep them in my thoughts. One day I hope I’ll be remembered.
I had no idea others felt such depression.
Initially, I was angry about having been lied to. I had a middle period of being Christian and then agnostic before I totally deconstructed. About 14 years. My son’s atheist beliefs made it easier for me to look into information without feeling guilty. I felt released from all the requirements religion put on my mind and just happy to experience living. Life is a beautiful gift. Millions of years occurred and life happened. We are part of it. How awesome.
I’m happy about this episode with Brittney on Mormon Stories bringing awareness of others experiences when losing their beliefs with her story and resources. ❤
Thank you, Brittney.
I think, yes, the individual and the collective create “God.” This has always been the truth in the Atman/Brahman concept of Vendata Buddhism (which to me is not a religion but a philosophy.)
Also I so related to this. Raised catholic, I am an enneagram 4/5 and spent many years as a self defined “Christian/catholic mystic.” (I loved the comment that enneagram is more so a trauma response than a true personality “test.” 😂) 2020 sort of blew my connection to my Catholic/Christian mystic self definition out of the water and I went back to my studying of Hinduism and Buddhism as more refined philosophical and spiritual schools of thought. Meditation has been my life raft. Also recognizing that the concept of reincarnation is scientific in the sense that nothing ever disappears from the earth it is just reformatted, therefore suicide is not a solution since you just come back in another form until you learn the lesson… plus it just passes pain from one living form to another. (In my opinion.) Gosh this all sounds so neat and sterile as a TH-cam comment but I figured I would share it anyway. In reality this is a heartbreaking and heart opening life journey and a daily, definitively moment to moment practice.
Ran across this on the exmo subreddit and knew I had to watch this episode. Only halfway through and I feel such kinship with Brittney and her experiences. Coincidentally I found we are of similar personality types.
Brittney, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Your words have brought me to tears, both of joy and of sadness.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Can't wait to watch her. She is brilliant and thankful for her voice. Yay! this is going to be good.
My exit from Evangelical Christianity many decades ago left me "agnostic", it took me about 10 years until I realized that I was athiest. But it was 'easier' for me because my exit was spurred by the wholesale hypocritical nature of church elders that I noticed as a young man. It allowed me to realize that what I believed were right and wrong hinged on how I believed people should be treated. That meant that there was basically "no god needed" for me, so I call it "easy"
Well said my friend
Whenever I hear Margie I can hear the words: (not sure she ever said them ) “Be gentle to yourself.” Thank you for this podcast. It resonates so much❤
I have loved this conversation! Would love to see more big thinkers on MS to help with the reconstruction.
There are secular choirs. Some have focuses- such as Latinx composers. My mom belonged to a couple of them. Definitely singing in a group can be a spiritual experience- when you feel the combined energy of the voices. I remember getting that feeling in my high school choir much more than the church choir.
This episode made me feel hopeful for the first time in a very long time.
Brittany's story so closely mirrors my own and I'm so happy to know that there is love and light on the other side of an existential crisis.
Thank you all!
This was incredibly relatable. I think I'll show this to my nevermo spouse to help her understand how I landed in nihilism. And so she can more fully understand the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful living in that space.
I've gone on this same journey and think her story and insights are super relevant and will be helpful for many years to come!
My precious, yet mentally ill son, sadly took his own life. one of his most common mentions was nihilistic, and severely negative. The trauma around the things he spewed was unbelievably painful to live around.
Sadly this is a possible outcome for that. If you have nothing to live for, then why live. And the opposite: God will forgive me and hold me, so why live in pain.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I know this never completely heals. And I hope you have a good safety net around you.♥️🫂
I'm so sorry 😔
Ouch, much respect for your grief.
Though I come from a Christian deconstruction, I identify so much. I was the leader, thinker and being the rebel was my identity. I completely agree with the feeling of being in the video game and put one foot in front of the other because it was important to those around me. I still feel that way a bit, but glad to know I am not alone. Thank you for sharing and for your work!
Please add a trigger warning to the beginning of this video. Some people are on the fence with their lives and need to be aware of the heavy context in this video. On a side note, Brittney I was 11 when I started to experience nihilism in my own thoughts. It's been many years of figuring it all out on my own too. You're not alone, just one of many. Thank you for being so open and honest; you are sharing your experiences and being so genuine which is going to be a game-changer for many. Thank you.
Edit: Yes I started young. I didn't believe in the church by the time I was 15 but had to attend.
Blame religion for nihilism. its a gift from religion....just like the fear of death is a gift of religion.
We probably crossed paths a few times at BYU-I, Brittney. (I was class of ‘07.) I think we hung out on opposite sides of campus though. Your insights are excellent, and very relevant to me at this point in my faith deconstruction. Thank you for sharing.
Oh my gosh this episode has been my favorite, its very heavy but i relate to so much of the process and i grew up evangelical and the part of the ego for women is literally what i need to hear. Ive been trying to understand the death of the ego and not understanding why i couldn’t relate. Thank you so much. Please bring her back on!!!!!!!!!
I was just telling my sister that I feel like I can deconstruct anything now, but it leaves me unable to have a feeling of building anything of actual meaning. How can I build when there’s a notion that it can be taken apart. It’s not a feeling that is easily expressed or understood by others. I feel like I’ve been in a void for awhile. I’m definitely buying the book.
What an amazing episode. Brittney is so well read, knowledgeable, and so easy to listen to. She takes all these philosophies and spins them in such an easily understandable way. Thank you for sharing your journey and your experiences. This has been SO helpful and a great stepping stone for my own reconstruction
This was the episode I didn't know I needed. Thank you so much❤
Great episode / discussion. Thoroughly hit all the points I gone through in the past 25 years.
Nihilism played a crucial role in my recovery from the most challenging period of my life. In contrast, Mormonism not only failed to provide assistance but also proved to be draining. My parents are gradually reassessing their beliefs, and I believe this experience will contribute significantly to their well-being.
Brittney is an unceasing well of knowledge and wisdom! Please bring your podcast in on TH-cam, and co-host with Margi , you both would complete and complement each other in spreading the knowledge beyond borders !
I've been enjoying your content for a few months at least now. This episode prompted me to join as a member! What a beautiful discussion! Very excited to learn about Brittney Hartley and many of the topics discussed here. Thank you John!
Amazing story. Amazing woman. Amazing family. I loved Brittney's reformulation of church structure and spirituality by use of regular story telling, walks in nature and so on. And yes, practical philosophy can be a great anchor point during dark times. It provides the rocks to help a person climb out of the hole.
I so appreciate this episode and have had so many thoughts and insights while listening. Towards the end when Brittney is discussing spirituality and ego dissolution for men vs women (noting that I understood her to be speaking about her client base and post religious folks who were socialized and conditioned into the gender binary), that really hit me. Deeply. As someone who's practiced yoga and meditation for 13 years, seated meditation hasn't really done it for me. And as someone who left the LDS church 8 years ago, I definitely leaned on my yoga practice to be my safe space during my deconstruction.
I do have to say, I hope that conversation has more to it and just didn't have the space to be more developed and fleshed out. Not every individual who identifies as or who has been socialized as a woman is a mother, and the fact that that wasn't mentioned felt short sighted to me. I still was very much conditioned to put others first at the expense of my own needs, wants, desires and comfort, even if im not changing diapers in the early hours of the morning.
I am so glad I waited until 2:34 to comment, because I was rolling my eyes and thinking, woman, you just made your own religion. She made her own life structures that is in religion, but without the liturgies. It sounds like religion of a group. And it is good she founded her way to happiness. God is not for everyone. She is very intelligent, and mindful in her remarks, love smart people. I am a women of faith, and she is right, I suffer to much trauma to make big adjustments in my life and beliefs. I don’t drink, or use drugs, but depression and trauma, even with treatment isn’t going away.
You sound narrow minded and judgey. Why roll your eyes? We are all coming up with our own religion. As soon as we all realize the Mormon church we were spoon fed since birth is a big fraud, we find our own way the best we can. I went from a believing Mormon to an atheist in about two hours. I totally understand trying to find anything to believe in. Any meaning in life. I don’t believe in any Heavenly Father, but I’m trying to find transcendence where I can.
Finally! Somebody that finally gets it In every way.
Commenting because I want this to reach as many people that are going through this as possible because it is exactly something I needed, and still need, myself ❤
I really enjoyed this podcast. Brittany's perspective is really life and self-affirming and it couldn't have resonated with me more. I'm a never-mo with a practising converted sibling that I haven't had contact with for 20 years. I hope that either the church still serves a useful and meaningful purpose for then, or that they get out safely one day.
It is a hard journey and I respect her for discussing it so openly. In her escape from God I cannot help but notice she is just switching one God for another. Instead of the LDS God, she is now worshipping the God of self-actualization, progressiveness, and "the good life".
What God would that be?
Not the case. A religious person must say that worship transitions to a new God when it has been lost. Here, no worship is being done; just a switch from acting in a way that is commanded from some high power to acting in a way that is the most beneficial to oneself and others. It isn’t worship, any more than an animal with no knowledge of God worships shelter and survival. To act progressively is not to worship the god of progressiveness, but to deny the idea of a being who commands good deeds, and to do them anyway.
@@Cominsjc I hate to "deconstruct" (considering the challenges of deconstruction that Brittney highlights in the video) your view of what religion is, what it means to worship, or for that matter what can serve as God but here are a few thoughts. According to the Google dictionary, while religion can be certainly defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods" it can also be defined as a "thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god." Likewise, while worship can be defined as "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity" it can also be defined as "adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle." Finally, while God can be defined as "(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being" it also can be defined as a "thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god."
In other words, while people can worship "Gods" in the way some traditional religions do, they can also worship other things like principles, ideals, and things. We can worship money, compassion, self-actualization, progressiveness, "the good life", nature, statues, rationality, social justice, etc. etc. as long they are placed in a level of supreme importance in our lives or we show "adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage" toward these ideas or principles. Whether you call it "God" or not, if you have ideal or principle in your life which guides and directs your behavior much like belief in "God" would do for theists then the ideal or principle has essentially become a "God" for you.
I had a similar thought about 2 hours into the interview. She's impressive but still searching for God, I believe.
Very similar experience, former bishop, the only person in my family who left, my ex-wife went deeper into Mormonism, I was suicidal through my faith crisis. The only thing that kept me here was my kids. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. It is super inspiring and helpful.
What a great episode. Thanks to all.
This is sooooo amazing, and thank you so much for recognizing that being able to go through all of these explorations is a privilege.
I love this episode so much!!! I had such a similar experience with deconstruction/nihilism. I too journeyed through philosophy to find answers and find a reason to keep living. I literally found the exact same philosopher (Albert Camus) and read The Myth of Sisyphus, and it totally pulled me out of my existential funk. I’ve never listened to an episode that so directly mirrored my own experience. Thank you Brittney!
this was so interesting. I had not heard of absurdism philosophy and am going to educate myself further :)
I've been waiting for the inevitable Mormon Stories with Brit and this did not disappoint. An instant classic!
As a former-Christian-turned-Agnostic, I'm troubled by her certainty about uncertain things. Hubris kills, sometimes literally, as demonstrated by the "nearly literally" of her two-year suicidal state. Because of this, it's important to distinguish between what we can know and what we cannot, especially when unfounded certainty about things we cannot know - the incomprehensible, the unverifiable, the prohibitively complex - all inescapable aspects of existence - begins to drive us to despair. Intellectual humility is an essential component of intellectual honesty. Without it, we put ourselves and those we love (unnecessarily) at risk.
Looks like John and RFM are having some kind of beard growing competition...
A type of "beard-off" of sorts. This should be fun to see how this progresses.🎅
This was by far my favorite interview that you’ve done. I’m an Atheopagan and often find it hard to find people who grasp the “spiritual, non-superstitious, atheist” thing. This was juicy!! 🙏💕🔥
Once in an AA meeting i got the best advice that changed my life..."If you dont have a loving God, fire him and get a new one". I took it one step further (as members of my exclusive club tend to do!) and made up my iwn religion based on The Golden Rule and daily prayer to "Sky Daddy". It was a short trip from there to absurdism.
Love her so much, I first found Brittany on tik tok and I am so happy I get to hear the whole story here behind your brilliant, compassionate mind ❤ I relate some to this even though I deconstructed from Christianity. I find it really important for myself to learn about other regions and peoples stories out of them.
I am currently in my "dark nigh of the soul" phase, while also grieving the me that could have been like John described. This episode finally gave me the words to describe how I am feeling, especially with the deconstruction of how is religion even as things, and why does humanity keep coming back to this.
This is my favorite interview so far. I absolutely love her TikTok channel. I relate with, and connect so much with what she says. I have considered myself staunch atheist for years, but my job, as a phytochemist and herbalist, keeps me tethered to New Age spirituality because of how a lot of people view herbs and stones, etc. I have never believed in the spiritual aspects of the earth, or witchcraft, but I still have rituals I do in my life, simply because they make me feel better. I’ve always felt like a bit of an imposter for doing that, but it was comforting to hear that rituals do actually help us move past certain mind blocks, even if we know they are not magical or real! Anyway, such a good interview. Thank you!
John and Margi are an incredible team. For sure. Great pod cast.