In a letter from one of my great x 6 grandmothers, while in England, she tells about the rumors of polygamy and her father did not want her to leave. The missionary leaders assured her and her family that the was NO polygamy and it was just lies. As a true believer in Joseph Smith, she followed the Mormon converts and came to the US to live as a Mormon woman and meet a nice LDS husband. In today’s society, this manipulation of a woman and her body is sex trafficking Once here she was married off into polygamy and being poor, she could not go back home.
I was reading the journal of Isaac Haight. He talks about going on his mission-maybe the early 1850’s- in England. He then brought the converts to this country and organized one of the wagon trains to take these Saints to Zion/ Utah. He talks about how the new converts learned about polygamy While on the ship!! and he was trying to calm them down. If memory serves Isaac took a bride who didn’t know about his wife in Utah. This English bride had been disowned by her family when she joined The Church so there was no going back for her
I really hate when men say that polygamy doesn't bother them but polyandry does. So gross! Why not take a second to wonder WHY you feel that way, then try to put yourself in the position of the women and try to empathize.
Joseph Smith engaged in both many times. The disgust you might feel as a (plural) wife is probably different than that which the man would feel sharing his wife. For the woman it is devaluation and utter neglect -and this is how it worked out in many plural mormon marriages. For the man it is modestly to severely disgusting. Still, quite a number of men allowed it with Smith.
As a nevermo, I learned about Joseph Smith briefly in AP US history in high school. From my memory, he was described as a con man who created a religion similar to fan fiction novels. After listening to this, I see very little difference between him and someone like Warren Jeffs. We have to tell the true story of who he was without glamour or else sections of America (educated in different ways) will continue to be disillusioned. Our country protects religious freedom but if you are raised in a religion based on lies and deliberate ambiguous storytelling, that is not freedom.
Totally agree. Other cointries need to be taught the truth as well- the church keeps spreading their lies far and wide all over the world, mainly in Africa and Asia!
This is one telling of him. I would be careful not to take everything that is said on this channel as the gospel truth. I’m not saying Joseph is anything beyond a normal man, but I’m leery of believing all claims against him. There was a concerted effort to tie polygamy to JS after his death, because in order for polygamy to be protected, the practice needed to be viewed as religiously practiced by JS which would allow protection under the 1st amendment. Again I’m not saying he didn’t have multiple flings. The amount of evidence pointing to that sure makes it hard to believe he didn’t. But I also think a majority of the claims laid at his feet are false.
@@bmo5082 I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. Beyond polygamy, there are many reasons to doubt that Joseph was a good man let alone any kind of wise prophet. I don’t believe in prophets or religion anyway.
I am glad to hear Lindsay's perspective. She keeps the psychology of women in mind during this historical period and does an excellent job of understanding living under power and control.
All my life I have heard non-Mormons say to me, "Mormons don't worship Jesus, they worship Joseph Smith!" I have countered every time, "We do not worship Joseph Smith. I pray to Jesus, not Joseph." 2:52:12 "We tie ourselves in knots trying to make Joseph into a good guy over and over and over." Now looking at it from a better perspective, this is EXACTLY worshipping Joseph Smith. I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon....
Don't be sorry. What you said was certainly true for you and many others, you weren't praying to Joseph Smith and realized he was simply a man. Undue admiration of founders is common in many contexts and people also often admire living hierarchy in religion and politics way too much for way too little reason.
Family lore has it that Joseph Smith approached my great great grandmother to be his second wife while he was still in New York. Her father was wealthy industrialist who had recently passed. Joseph Smith told this young woman that God told him that she was to be his wife. She told him that God hadn't told her that and my grandmother told me that she said that god hadn't told her and that's why our family aren't Mormons.
Says the lady who has done some amazing work putting pertinent points on her own experiences and current events all month! It’s becoming clear that without women in legitimate power, there is no fixing this. In or out, LDS women are truly amazing, and are this church’s only hope. It is so inspiring hearing LDS women share their wisdom and hear them bring the conversation right to the nitty gritty with compassion
These two brilliant historians are so great! I love them both and they play off of each other so well. How can any of us get as educated and informed as they are. We are blessed by their tenacious quest for the truth!
As a NeverMo in Utah I decided to be a critically thinking "investigator" during the pandemic. Wow just wow. The lens of Mormonism is a fascinating window on US history. Polygamy is a crucial factor among so many. The 2nd Great Awakening and various NE communal sectarian experiments were a wild time period. Most sects failed or faded away (the ones that preached celibacy didn't do so well, for example). This period in history has been far too sanitized in standard texts and classes. Ty for these discussions.
Agree it was an era that bred so many groups, from the Millerites feeding into Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and like you say various groups that didn't reach modern days
As a NeverMo, this is has been the most fascinating Mormon Stories episode I've watched. I really appreciate how they look at historical and social context, and don't push favorite theories.
To those wondering why Emma stayed, what other choice did she have? She needed to survive. Leaving DV relationships is hard now. Imagine then in a community that keeps telling her that he talks to God. I can picture the gaslighting they put her through.
I also think Emma saw $ signs….the $ started pouring in and folks were just giving it to them. Tithe. So she put up with it because having money is better than not. 1800, 1900, and 2000…….
Joseph Smith was an obvious fraud and a charlatan. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. Carl Sagan
Great show! Thank you! Yes, civil discourse, we must educate, debate, and discuss. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. Carl Sagan
I'm incredibly grateful for Lindsay and Bryan's work!! Thank you for your work and research- truly. THIS episode is so important. I especially love what Lindsay says at the end of the episode - we need to hold space for better conversations, to stretching ourselves and being more understanding. Thank you John and Mormon Stories 👏 bloody brilliant episode guys. Bring on part 2!
While living in Vermont, I'm told that the Smith family left Vermont in 1816 which Vermonters call the Year Without Summer after the volcano caused there to be six inches of snow in June. There was no harvest that year and many Vermonters left the state.
Bryan taught me Hebrew as the teaching assistant at the U of U in 2008! I believe he was getting his Master’s degree at the time. Haven’t seen him in 15 years! How cool!
This might sound dramatic to some people, but I've always carried a lot of ancestral wounds and repressed rage surrounding Mormon polygamy. I never fully understood why the topic was so triggering for me, but then I did some research into my family tree... *Trigger warning--sexual abuse, pedophilia* Apparently, I'm directly descended from an underaged pioneer girl who was reportedly groomed, indoctrinated, and blackmailed into "plural marriage" with a violent pedophile. I'm living genetic evidence that the marriage was definitely sexual, but I don't know how much of the sex was consensual... I'm also descended from several adult pioneer women who explicitly refused to consent to their husbands taking on plural wives, considering "plural marriage" to be just a bullshit excuse for sexual infidelity. But their husbands betrayed them anyway and went on to sleep with other women *profusely*. Some of these men impregnated enough women enough times to father up to 35 children! These overly fertile men are also said to have favored certain wives and children, showering them with attention and resources, all while neglecting their least favorite wives and children--allegedly working them like servants. And, to add insult to injury, these husbands repeatedly gaslit their wives whenever they expressed any hint of anger, hurt, or jealousy about the situation... So yeah, I'm vicariously pissed off! There are so many reasons why I will never defend or excuse Mormon polygamy--one being that doing so would disrespect, betray, and gaslight my female ancestors. Instead, I've been trying to verbalize, validate, and unpack all of the pain and rage that I suspect my female ancestors bottled up. Yeah, I know it sounds strange, but the process has been very therapeutic in my Ex-Mormon journey!
I want to be like Lindsay… she’s awesome, so smart and wise. I loved this episode sooo much. It’s amazing how much information they both have stored in their brains, with no notes!
What an interesting guy Bryan Buchanan is, and what a lovely informed lady Lindsey is. She brings these people of long ago to life, and I loved it. It is so amazing and enjoyable when history becomes real, and to uncover, discover, and dig up these facts to prove polygamy, alcoholism, ties from one person to a certain other one, drug use, and show the mood and circumstances of those particular days is heartbreaking, informative, and so educational. Wonderful and enlightening. Thank you again John for bringing these stories to us.
I love this podcast ❤ So fascinating to hear the historical perspective. Lindsay nails it with it’s all about the power. I guess this helps explain the no alcohol rule. Lindsay and Bryan are amazing communicators and I can’t wait for the rest of the story Thank you Mormon Stories
Lindsay you are so intelligent. I was floored when you talked about polygamy being about control in relation to abuse for those women. You have completely changed my views about this. Thank you so much.
I served my mission in the family history library, international floor. My favorite class I was required to take discussed that sealings and marriages were not the same during the “Utah” time period. Today, there has to be a legal marriage for the sealing to take place. My instructor stated that Joseph and Brigham were probably shocked and sad to learn that they were not sealed to all these women.
A much needed and eye-opening discussion. A conversation with the world history of the time and how things possibly developed. Wonderful podcast, John, as always. Thank you Lindsay and Bryan for your research and insight!!
Lindsay's very wise for her years. As she has subtly and directly stated throughout the session, it's best to not be too extreme in whatever side we take on this subject. As all of our opinions are just opinions. And trampling on another's opinion does little good to ever solving any important issue.
Never Mo here but I am fascinated by Mormon history. Love Mormon Stories and I am so grateful to be introduced to Sunstone Mormon History so I can keep feeding my obsession! Is that a sin???
😂😂😂 if it is, I guess I will be sinning because I’m in the same boat as you. I’m fascinated watching almost all high demand religions. I grew up loosely Catholic and never experienced all the trauma that I see on these channels.
I've learned so much about my own family relationships, my childhood religion, my own personal faith and our current political climate and dynamics from learning how Mormons are groomed to be blind to reality. I'm deeply grateful for the education. These people are heroic!
Exmo here. Love studying church history. So interesting and these 2 historians are outstanding!. John Dehlins podcasts are awesome. So glad to know it all gets up the nostrils of church leaders.
Okay this is amazing. What a buffet of knowledge wow. I am so impressed by this podcast constantly but this is truly just outstanding coverage. Eagerly awaiting more with yall!! Thank you!
As mormons we were taught that truth is the way. Now i find out that a lot of the things i believed is a lie. I don't trust what to believe about the truth. It saddens me. Sounds like he wanted power and not what Christ taught. I think joseph smith was a very corrupt person. The church should have given us all the information about Joseph Smith. That way we would have had a true choice to either follow or not.
I just recently found out about the historical issues and it has been devastating! The church has been deceptive and intruthful and it is WRONG! They will have a fun time with keeping the youth from this knowledge! It makes me sick inside yet I’m glad that I finally have some clear answers to the things that bothered me all along especially polygamy!!
0:01: 🎙 Lindsey Hansen Park returns to Mormon Stories Podcast to discuss various topics 14:18: 📜 The video discusses the shaping of the Fourth Amendment and the Republican Party by the Mormons in the West. 27:33: 🔍 The video discusses Joseph Smith's sense of entitlement and the credibility of his claims. 41:40: 📚 The video discusses the early life of Joseph Smith and the influence of alcohol on his family and community. 55:50: 📚 The video discusses the debate between Alexander Campbell and Sydney Rigdon over ecstatic gifts and the conversion of a Congregation of hippies. 1:09:52: 📚 The video discusses a story about Joseph Smith involving castration and potential sexual impropriety. 1:24:03: 😔 The early organization of police in Missouri and Nauvoo was initially formed to protect the Mormons, but later became a military organization to defend against apostates. 1:38:14: 📚 The influence of the Bible in society, particularly in relation to polygamy, is discussed. 1:52:55: 📚 The video discusses the faith-affirming element of novel erapolygamy and the argument made by Julia regarding Louisa Beeman's marriage and polyandrous marriages. 2:07:28: 🏛 The video discusses the connection between masonry, the temple ceremony, and polygamy in the context of Joseph Smith's development of the endowment. 2:21:33: 🔍 The speaker believes that Emma Smith may have had some knowledge of Joseph Smith's actions and may have taken advantage of her power, but ultimately still sees her as a victim. 2:35:12: 📚 The speaker discusses the treatment of women in the history of the Mormon church and draws parallels to Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith. 2:49:23: 💪 Nancy defends Joseph Smith against rumors, facing shaming and backlash. 3:03:30: 📚 The video discusses the role of polygamy in the controversies surrounding Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion. 3:17:36: 🔍 The speaker expresses concerns about mixing apologetics with history in the context of Mormon history. Recap by Tammy AI
Yes, I always thought it was odd how in the orthodox "First Vision" story pushed by the Church for generations, Joseph Smith at the age of 14 was the kind of kid who spent his free time reading and pondering passages in the KJV Bible. But when it comes to talking about Joseph Smith at a point several years later in his life, in connection with the miraculous story of the "translation" of the Book of Mormon, he was virtually completely illiterate and so ignorant that he would not have been capable of even speaking in anything other than the vernacular of a backwoods, ignorant country bumpkin.
I really like your podcasts. You have taught me a lot that I had never heard. As a person that is really struggling with the church, having had miracles in my life, I can’t quite let go. If someone could do an episode on miracles that people have it would be interesting. It could be helpful.
My personal thoughts on any spiritual experiences and miracles is that God is there for anyone in any organization. He is universal and all-loving. So, even though the church is not true (in my opinion), God is. That is just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth to you. I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.
The early Europeans in the United States were required to be farmers in order to get land patents. The reason why the Pecks and Knights were in that area of Vermont bordered by the Susquehanna River was a direct result of the Revolutionary War. After the war people were heading West and settling those lands. I really appreciate the background considering the War of 1812. I am always dismayed when that background is ignored when talking about the early days of The Church
I hadn't heard that story about Durfee at the 17:25 point. I'm assuming that this is Lemuel Durfee (who was also the landlord to whom the Smith's paid rent for their home). I had always understood that Lemuel Durfee was a friend and benefactor to the Smiths. The hot pepper sauce in the whiskey may help explain how "Lemuel" became the name of a bad guy in the Book of Mormon.
Referring to Lindsay’s comment on Emma and Warren Jeffie’s fav wife. I also agree with her about Eliza R. Snow. Iread a few places where Eliza R. Snow was called by Joseph Smith as “Zion’s Poetess”. She was one of Joseph’s favourites because of her loyalty and help in grooming the younger potential wives. As well as Brigham’s favourite because her methods with the potential wives. She was the only woman they brought to the Holy Land to consecrate a part of it. Fanny Stenhouse’s book on Polygamy talks about her role. So she probably did what she had to do also to achieve her status and security as a polygamous women, believing in the “doctrine”.
This has got to be the most riveting “Stories” episode yet for me. Somehow I was taken back to that time. I’m 77 and have memories of hippies and attitudes towards sex. Lindsay and Bryan brought a great wealth of “deep” knowledge. I don’t easily comment, but I just had to say: Bravo !
I’ve never understood why people aren’t okay with Joseph practicing polygamy, but blame Brigham. If Brigham was so wrong, then he was not the correct prophet to follow, and we are in the wrong branch of Mormonism. They treat it like a fallen prophet, but we can then trust every prophet after him. It makes no sense!
Joseph smith and Brigham young were one in the same. Both false profits evil power hungry men. No angle came to smith forcing him to marry 14 year old and other men’s wives 🙄 he literally blamed God for cheating
My mormon ancestors crossed the plains and settled in southern utah. We have a story of men in my great grandfather's ward trying to kills him. That story always seemed odd to me. Hearing the story about the mormon militia makes it all click.
It always bugs me that the members do all the apologetics and the leaders sit back with no accountability or comment or interest it seems..thats a no no for me...seers and revelators my foot!!
As Lindsay mentioned, I've for a while thought that was an accurate and fair way to look at things here. Just throw out any top 5 issues you want, but leave the other 45 open to honest discussion... Although, there sure seems to be a lot more than 50 "concerns." I keep hearing the statement from the movie a few good men, "and the hits just keep on coming..."
When I did my first degree, and took world religions as a minor (one credit short as a major), the secular university taught the LDS as a cult. The class also compared and contrasted it with other cults and sects.
The boundaries between distinct sects of a faith and different religions can be hard to define. At one point Christianity was a sect of Judaism, some may say a cult. In my experience of non US based religious studies cult is used for very recent variants. Sects for groups that are significantly different to the core faith, but longer lasting. Eg Mormons have the Bible but divert dramatically from traditional Christianity but having persisted get called a sect. Labels are tricky, and whilst we might feel drawn to one rather than another, in reality it is about how each person is or feels affected. If one label becomes a barrier to a person engaging with the questions that need to be faced then it is not helpful even if it seems relevant in other contexts
@@helenr4300I agree. I just read an interesting book (I’m sorry the title is escaping me right now) but it argued every organized religion was a cult. It was interesting to read different views, though anything that is a convert type of book has never interested me.
Hang ON! The colonies were PROTESTANT! Not just Church of England. There were Baptist, Anglican (Church of England) Jews and others just in Rhode Island where I grew up. Roger Williams founded RI to protest the Pilgrims and Anne Hutchinson also set up her own religion in East Providence. So there is a rich history of many different religious ideas just in the New England area alone.
1:45:51 - my ancestor is Patty Bartlett Sessions and it's very curious that as a midwife (who knew how to perform abortions), she became Joseph's plural wife, and Polyandrous wife, just 2 months before John C. Bennett was officially excommunicated. My theory is that Joseph needed a new abortionist since he was no longer best buddies with John C. Bennet, and she was a perfect option. He didn't want to marry her for sex, surely. She was old. Joseph married her young daughter Silvia Sessions too, so it's odd that he would want Patty as a wife. She was older and already had a Mormon husband. But understanding his need for an abortionist helps to see why the sealing to Patty was advantageous to him for that reason. Allegedly.
Just when I think I knew everything, something new bubbles to the surface. This is the 1st I've heard about Joseph Smith Jr.'s encounters with alcohol as a youth. I love the stories but I'm missing the citations. Can these stories be cited anywhere in the show notes so that we can see them for ourselves? Excellent podcast! I'm so glad I don't have to feel alone in deconstructing 42 years of indoctrination.
"we can deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy ... but I think that that is a dangerous a dangerous approach to our heritage" Yes - that idea has been proven in RLDS / Community of Christ history. It was a foundation of their beliefs for a century or so. When they finally stood up and admitted that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, it was devastating to many members. Of course, it was the right thing to do, and CofC is such a good example of a church trying to do the right thing. But their history shows that you will eventually pay for hiding the truth.
What do you think? I think if all the major religions in the world started roughly 200 years ago, we would have similar spicy stories about the main characters surrounding those beginnings. 🤔
1:54:22 and this applies to any group/church that does Purity Culture stuff like the fundamentalist Catholic community I was part of until four years ago, I was so repressed (I was told not to think about anything sexual as a hormonal teenager and rubbing one out is seen almost as bad as murder when it comes to going to hell) that it was one of the things that messed me up psychologically the most during those years, there’s a reason there’s the “Catholic guilt” meme and I feel lucky that I’ve managed to undo most of that in my life.
She is incredible. So smart and poised and I frankly want to be like her when I grow up. Yes, I am aware she is younger than me but the point still stands.
@1:30 you wonder about Joseph Smith's intentions and his integrity. Did he make that up just so that he can boff as many women as he wanted? Well, duh. It surprises me that you would even think that that came from God or that he thought it came from God. This shows how deeply you have been indoctrinated.
I see that time and again the early Mormons had a joy for living; drinking and dancing. Some of the early members were Quakers and Baptists and more pious. I think Rachel Grant, Heber J. Grants mother had a big impact on the idea of not drinking and the like. My ancestors in Upstate New York were French Huguenots and they came here for religious freedom OMG! My Cherokee 5X Great-Aunt was married into the Packer family in Missouri! Yes were called half-breeds. The English part of that family came into Jamestown. It’s interesting that Cherokees were also polygamists
john, i'm calling you out. muslims were not practicing polygamy in old testament times because there were no muslims before the 6th century CE. lol. honestly an easy mistake to make. obviously, the whole of what you said is still correct about the prevalence of polygamy in antiquity though.
In a letter from one of my great x 6 grandmothers, while in England, she tells about the rumors of polygamy and her father did not want her to leave. The missionary leaders assured her and her family that the was NO polygamy and it was just lies. As a true believer in Joseph Smith, she followed the Mormon converts and came to the US to live as a Mormon woman and meet a nice LDS husband. In today’s society, this manipulation of a woman and her body is sex trafficking Once here she was married off into polygamy and being poor, she could not go back home.
Exactly!!!!
💯 Mormon missionaries were sex traffickers.
Wow, how truly sad 😢 she deserved better.
Thank you for sharing!! I too have mormon women ancestors that came from England in the 1800s and wonder if their experience was the same.
I was reading the journal of Isaac Haight. He talks about going on his mission-maybe the early 1850’s- in England. He then brought the converts to this country and organized one of the wagon trains to take these Saints to Zion/ Utah. He talks about how the new converts learned about polygamy While on the ship!! and he was trying to calm them down. If memory serves Isaac took a bride who didn’t know about his wife in Utah. This English bride had been disowned by her family when she joined The Church so there was no going back for her
I really hate when men say that polygamy doesn't bother them but polyandry does. So gross! Why not take a second to wonder WHY you feel that way, then try to put yourself in the position of the women and try to empathize.
Men have always been selfish in religion. Its all about the man and the woman is less.
It's OK if men hoard possessions as long as they don't take another man's possession. Not just gross, dehumanizing to the woman.
Joseph Smith engaged in both many times. The disgust you might feel as a (plural) wife is probably different than that which the man would feel sharing his wife. For the woman it is devaluation and utter neglect -and this is how it worked out in many plural mormon marriages. For the man it is modestly to severely disgusting. Still, quite a number of men allowed it with Smith.
As a nevermo, I learned about Joseph Smith briefly in AP US history in high school. From my memory, he was described as a con man who created a religion similar to fan fiction novels. After listening to this, I see very little difference between him and someone like Warren Jeffs. We have to tell the true story of who he was without glamour or else sections of America (educated in different ways) will continue to be disillusioned. Our country protects religious freedom but if you are raised in a religion based on lies and deliberate ambiguous storytelling, that is not freedom.
Well said!
Totally agree. Other cointries need to be taught the truth as well- the church keeps spreading their lies far and wide all over the world, mainly in Africa and Asia!
Reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology…
This is one telling of him. I would be careful not to take everything that is said on this channel as the gospel truth. I’m not saying Joseph is anything beyond a normal man, but I’m leery of believing all claims against him.
There was a concerted effort to tie polygamy to JS after his death, because in order for polygamy to be protected, the practice needed to be viewed as religiously practiced by JS which would allow protection under the 1st amendment.
Again I’m not saying he didn’t have multiple flings. The amount of evidence pointing to that sure makes it hard to believe he didn’t. But I also think a majority of the claims laid at his feet are false.
@@bmo5082 I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. Beyond polygamy, there are many reasons to doubt that Joseph was a good man let alone any kind of wise prophet. I don’t believe in prophets or religion anyway.
I am glad to hear Lindsay's perspective. She keeps the psychology of women in mind during this historical period and does an excellent job of understanding living under power and control.
This was my first introduction to Bryan. I love this human.
Me too. Agreed
Right - he’s soooo smart I was kind of in awe about both of them and the book of knowledge they shared .. this was a great episode
All my life I have heard non-Mormons say to me, "Mormons don't worship Jesus, they worship Joseph Smith!" I have countered every time, "We do not worship Joseph Smith. I pray to Jesus, not Joseph."
2:52:12 "We tie ourselves in knots trying to make Joseph into a good guy over and over and over."
Now looking at it from a better perspective, this is EXACTLY worshipping Joseph Smith.
I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon....
Don't be sorry. What you said was certainly true for you and many others, you weren't praying to Joseph Smith and realized he was simply a man.
Undue admiration of founders is common in many contexts and people also often admire living hierarchy in religion and politics way too much for way too little reason.
Family lore has it that Joseph Smith approached my great great grandmother to be his second wife while he was still in New York. Her father was wealthy industrialist who had recently passed. Joseph Smith told this young woman that God told him that she was to be his wife. She told him that God hadn't told her that and my grandmother told me that she said that god hadn't told her and that's why our family aren't Mormons.
So interesting! Your gggrandmother sounds smart!
Your grandmother was wishful thinking.
Good for her!!
What creepy fn pick up line…..
“God told me to……”
BEST EVER! Mic drop, no need for another podcast ever! This is everything all at once! If you’re struggling with deconstruction, watch this, DONE!
No way. I’m already excited for part 2! Maybe a part 3?!🤞
Says the lady who has done some amazing work putting pertinent points on her own experiences and current events all month! It’s becoming clear that without women in legitimate power, there is no fixing this. In or out, LDS women are truly amazing, and are this church’s only hope. It is so inspiring hearing LDS women share their wisdom and hear them bring the conversation right to the nitty gritty with compassion
These two brilliant historians are so great! I love them both and they play off of each other so well. How can any of us get as educated and informed as they are. We are blessed by their tenacious quest for the truth!
As a NeverMo in Utah I decided to be a critically thinking "investigator" during the pandemic. Wow just wow. The lens of Mormonism is a fascinating window on US history. Polygamy is a crucial factor among so many. The 2nd Great Awakening and various NE communal sectarian experiments were a wild time period. Most sects failed or faded away (the ones that preached celibacy didn't do so well, for example). This period in history has been far too sanitized in standard texts and classes. Ty for these discussions.
Agree it was an era that bred so many groups, from the Millerites feeding into Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and like you say various groups that didn't reach modern days
a man saying "polygamy didn't take me out of the church, polyandry did" at 1:43:00 perfectly made lindsays' point that polyamy is about power.
I can't believe I have to keep repeating this. As a man, it is possible to help a woman without having sex with her.
Well, it certainly isn't on social dating sites! LOL
And I don't think the women were even helped.
@@BonnieShaw-cq2dgOh come on. They were given food, shelter, mediocre dick, etc. /s
As a NeverMo, this is has been the most fascinating Mormon Stories episode I've watched. I really appreciate how they look at historical and social context, and don't push favorite theories.
To those wondering why Emma stayed, what other choice did she have? She needed to survive. Leaving DV relationships is hard now. Imagine then in a community that keeps telling her that he talks to God. I can picture the gaslighting they put her through.
She was absolutely a victim of narcissistic abuse and DV😢
I also think Emma saw $ signs….the $ started pouring in and folks were just giving it to them. Tithe. So she put up with it because having money is better than not. 1800, 1900, and 2000…….
And the God awful pain.
Then why did she want to be buried next to him instead of her second husband?
@@lyndawingo what makes you think that was even a choice she could make? you really think they would have let her not be buried by joseph?
Joseph Smith was a talented 'story teller'. He found a 'celestial' reason for his every action.
Joseph Smith was an obvious fraud and a charlatan. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
Carl Sagan
Especially his Pedophilic rape of a 14 year old. I wonder if he made up this story how to excuse away this Pedo rape of this poor girl.
Great show! Thank you! Yes, civil discourse, we must educate, debate, and discuss. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
Carl Sagan
I'm incredibly grateful for Lindsay and Bryan's work!! Thank you for your work and research- truly. THIS episode is so important. I especially love what Lindsay says at the end of the episode - we need to hold space for better conversations, to stretching ourselves and being more understanding. Thank you John and Mormon Stories 👏 bloody brilliant episode guys. Bring on part 2!
Can we get these people back often?! They make the subject so engaging.
While living in Vermont, I'm told that the Smith family left Vermont in 1816 which Vermonters call the Year Without Summer after the volcano caused there to be six inches of snow in June. There was no harvest that year and many Vermonters left the state.
Bryan taught me Hebrew as the teaching assistant at the U of U in 2008! I believe he was getting his Master’s degree at the time. Haven’t seen him in 15 years! How cool!
This might sound dramatic to some people, but I've always carried a lot of ancestral wounds and repressed rage surrounding Mormon polygamy. I never fully understood why the topic was so triggering for me, but then I did some research into my family tree...
*Trigger warning--sexual abuse, pedophilia* Apparently, I'm directly descended from an underaged pioneer girl who was reportedly groomed, indoctrinated, and blackmailed into "plural marriage" with a violent pedophile. I'm living genetic evidence that the marriage was definitely sexual, but I don't know how much of the sex was consensual...
I'm also descended from several adult pioneer women who explicitly refused to consent to their husbands taking on plural wives, considering "plural marriage" to be just a bullshit excuse for sexual infidelity. But their husbands betrayed them anyway and went on to sleep with other women *profusely*. Some of these men impregnated enough women enough times to father up to 35 children! These overly fertile men are also said to have favored certain wives and children, showering them with attention and resources, all while neglecting their least favorite wives and children--allegedly working them like servants. And, to add insult to injury, these husbands repeatedly gaslit their wives whenever they expressed any hint of anger, hurt, or jealousy about the situation...
So yeah, I'm vicariously pissed off! There are so many reasons why I will never defend or excuse Mormon polygamy--one being that doing so would disrespect, betray, and gaslight my female ancestors. Instead, I've been trying to verbalize, validate, and unpack all of the pain and rage that I suspect my female ancestors bottled up. Yeah, I know it sounds strange, but the process has been very therapeutic in my Ex-Mormon journey!
Yes
Doesn't seem outlandish at all.
I want to be like Lindsay… she’s awesome, so smart and wise. I loved this episode sooo much. It’s amazing how much information they both have stored in their brains, with no notes!
Yes
This is one of the best episodes I've seen! PLEASE bring them back soon for the telling of the Utah period!
Phenomenal episode. Lindsay and Bryan should come back early and often!
Even decades ago, I've always felt the worst for Emma than anyone else in the early church history.
I love these two guests. They are some of my favorites.
I could listen to Lindsay and Bryan all day❤❤️❤️
This is an amazingly compelling episode. I can't stop watching!.
What an interesting guy Bryan Buchanan is, and what a lovely informed lady Lindsey is. She brings these people of long ago to life, and I loved it. It is so amazing and enjoyable when history becomes real, and to uncover, discover, and dig up these facts to prove polygamy, alcoholism, ties from one person to a certain other one, drug use, and show the mood and circumstances of those particular days is heartbreaking, informative, and so educational. Wonderful and enlightening. Thank you again John for bringing these stories to us.
I am so excited for this! I look up to LHP and how she got involved in history. I also love the Sunstone podcasts!!
Excellent episode and I hope these guests will be back for future episodes.
I love this podcast ❤ So fascinating to hear the historical perspective.
Lindsay nails it with it’s all about the power. I guess this helps explain the no alcohol rule.
Lindsay and Bryan are amazing communicators and I can’t wait for the rest of the story
Thank you Mormon Stories
Interesting in the next episode they discuss how only 'hard liquor' was excluded and there were Mormon wine makers, and definitely drinking.
Lindsay you are so intelligent. I was floored when you talked about polygamy being about control in relation to abuse for those women. You have completely changed my views about this. Thank you so much.
This episode was an eyeopener for me. Thanks Lindsey and Bryan who btw has a pleasant voice to listen to
I appreciate you having guest that tell you what they don’t know or are unsure. It adds validity to their message.
I served my mission in the family history library, international floor. My favorite class I was required to take discussed that sealings and marriages were not the same during the “Utah” time period. Today, there has to be a legal marriage for the sealing to take place. My instructor stated that Joseph and Brigham were probably shocked and sad to learn that they were not sealed to all these women.
I have learned so much from this. Lindsay and Bryan are excellent.
A much needed and eye-opening discussion. A conversation with the world history of the time and how things possibly developed. Wonderful podcast, John, as always. Thank you Lindsay and Bryan for your research and insight!!
Lindsay's very wise for her years.
As she has subtly and directly stated throughout the session, it's best to not be too extreme in whatever side we take on this subject.
As all of our opinions are just opinions. And trampling on another's opinion does little good to ever solving any important issue.
Wow! Lindsay is a powerhouse! This episode was riveting.
Yup, and waaaaaay too easy on the eyes!
These guests are absolutely fascinating! Thank you!
Was Part 3 ever made? I love this episode and Part 2! They helped me so much with my deconstruction journey.
I love this introduction to the show John it’s very awesome
Never Mo here but I am fascinated by Mormon history. Love Mormon Stories and I am so grateful to be introduced to Sunstone Mormon History so I can keep feeding my obsession! Is that a sin???
😂😂😂 if it is, I guess I will be sinning because I’m in the same boat as you. I’m fascinated watching almost all high demand religions. I grew up loosely Catholic and never experienced all the trauma that I see on these channels.
I've learned so much about my own family relationships, my childhood religion, my own personal faith and our current political climate and dynamics from learning how Mormons are groomed to be blind to reality. I'm deeply grateful for the education. These people are heroic!
Exmo here. Love studying church history. So interesting and these 2 historians are outstanding!. John Dehlins podcasts are awesome. So glad to know it all gets up the nostrils of church leaders.
Can’t wait for part 3, especially to get into Joseph Musser. I grew up in a fundamentalist group and his teachings had a tremendous impact on my life.
Did you grow up in the AUB? Because I did. Screw Musser lol
Okay this is amazing. What a buffet of knowledge wow. I am so impressed by this podcast constantly but this is truly just outstanding coverage. Eagerly awaiting more with yall!! Thank you!
Bryan and Lindsay are awesome podcasters! Love you guys ❤
As mormons we were taught that truth is the way. Now i find out that a lot of the things i believed is a lie. I don't trust what to believe about the truth. It saddens me. Sounds like he wanted power and not what Christ taught. I think joseph smith was a very corrupt person. The church should have given us all the information about Joseph Smith. That way we would have had a true choice to either follow or not.
I just recently found out about the historical issues and it has been devastating! The church has been deceptive and intruthful and it is WRONG! They will have a fun time with keeping the youth from this knowledge! It makes me sick inside yet I’m glad that I finally have some clear answers to the things that bothered me all along especially polygamy!!
Yes! The most devastating part for me is feeling like 'who CAN I trust!!' 😢 it's so sad.
How we find out what is true is through our intuition.
We are women and it is hard wierd, we are told as women the intuition is delusional. Not true.
Just an FYI, but this is an episode I’ve watched multiple times. There is just so much to digest AND I like Lindsay and Bryan so much.
Fascinating episode. I have saved it. Looking forward to additional coverage by this wonderful couple. They untangle the worms in the can.
0:01: 🎙 Lindsey Hansen Park returns to Mormon Stories Podcast to discuss various topics
14:18: 📜 The video discusses the shaping of the Fourth Amendment and the Republican Party by the Mormons in the West.
27:33: 🔍 The video discusses Joseph Smith's sense of entitlement and the credibility of his claims.
41:40: 📚 The video discusses the early life of Joseph Smith and the influence of alcohol on his family and community.
55:50: 📚 The video discusses the debate between Alexander Campbell and Sydney Rigdon over ecstatic gifts and the conversion of a Congregation of hippies.
1:09:52: 📚 The video discusses a story about Joseph Smith involving castration and potential sexual impropriety.
1:24:03: 😔 The early organization of police in Missouri and Nauvoo was initially formed to protect the Mormons, but later became a military organization to defend against apostates.
1:38:14: 📚 The influence of the Bible in society, particularly in relation to polygamy, is discussed.
1:52:55: 📚 The video discusses the faith-affirming element of novel erapolygamy and the argument made by Julia regarding Louisa Beeman's marriage and polyandrous marriages.
2:07:28: 🏛 The video discusses the connection between masonry, the temple ceremony, and polygamy in the context of Joseph Smith's development of the endowment.
2:21:33: 🔍 The speaker believes that Emma Smith may have had some knowledge of Joseph Smith's actions and may have taken advantage of her power, but ultimately still sees her as a victim.
2:35:12: 📚 The speaker discusses the treatment of women in the history of the Mormon church and draws parallels to Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith.
2:49:23: 💪 Nancy defends Joseph Smith against rumors, facing shaming and backlash.
3:03:30: 📚 The video discusses the role of polygamy in the controversies surrounding Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion.
3:17:36: 🔍 The speaker expresses concerns about mixing apologetics with history in the context of Mormon history.
Recap by Tammy AI
Yes, I always thought it was odd how in the orthodox "First Vision" story pushed by the Church for generations, Joseph Smith at the age of 14 was the kind of kid who spent his free time reading and pondering passages in the KJV Bible. But when it comes to talking about Joseph Smith at a point several years later in his life, in connection with the miraculous story of the "translation" of the Book of Mormon, he was virtually completely illiterate and so ignorant that he would not have been capable of even speaking in anything other than the vernacular of a backwoods, ignorant country bumpkin.
I really like your podcasts. You have taught me a lot that I had never heard. As a person that is really struggling with the church, having had miracles in my life, I can’t quite let go. If someone could do an episode on miracles that people have it would be interesting. It could be helpful.
That would be an awesome episode. That is a hard place to be in, and I'm wishing you good luck and love ❤️
My personal thoughts on any spiritual experiences and miracles is that God is there for anyone in any organization. He is universal and all-loving. So, even though the church is not true (in my opinion), God is. That is just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth to you. I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.
The early Europeans in the United States were required to be farmers in order to get land patents. The reason why the Pecks and Knights were in that area of Vermont bordered by the Susquehanna River was a direct result of the Revolutionary War. After the war people were heading West and settling those lands. I really appreciate the background considering the War of 1812. I am always dismayed when that background is ignored when talking about the early days of The Church
I hadn't heard that story about Durfee at the 17:25 point. I'm assuming that this is Lemuel Durfee (who was also the landlord to whom the Smith's paid rent for their home). I had always understood that Lemuel Durfee was a friend and benefactor to the Smiths. The hot pepper sauce in the whiskey may help explain how "Lemuel" became the name of a bad guy in the Book of Mormon.
Awesome Job Lindsay Hansen, Bryan Buchanan, on the deep dive and perspectives! Nice Job John D for hosting, Maven for Mod!
Referring to Lindsay’s comment on Emma and Warren Jeffie’s fav wife. I also agree with her about Eliza R. Snow. Iread a few places where Eliza R. Snow was called by Joseph Smith as “Zion’s Poetess”. She was one of Joseph’s favourites because of her loyalty and help in grooming the younger potential wives. As well as Brigham’s favourite because her methods with the potential wives. She was the only woman they brought to the Holy Land to consecrate a part of it. Fanny Stenhouse’s book on Polygamy talks about her role. So she probably did what she had to do also to achieve her status and security as a polygamous women, believing in the “doctrine”.
This has got to be the most riveting “Stories” episode yet for me. Somehow I was taken back to that time. I’m 77 and have memories of hippies and attitudes towards sex. Lindsay and Bryan brought a great wealth of “deep” knowledge. I don’t easily comment, but I just had to say: Bravo !
Such a great episode! Thank you Lindsay & Bryan for all your work. When is part 2 airing?!
I’ve never understood why people aren’t okay with Joseph practicing polygamy, but blame Brigham. If Brigham was so wrong, then he was not the correct prophet to follow, and we are in the wrong branch of Mormonism. They treat it like a fallen prophet, but we can then trust every prophet after him. It makes no sense!
Joseph smith and Brigham young were one in the same. Both false profits evil power hungry men. No angle came to smith forcing him to marry 14 year old and other men’s wives 🙄 he literally blamed God for cheating
My mormon ancestors crossed the plains and settled in southern utah. We have a story of men in my great grandfather's ward trying to kills him. That story always seemed odd to me. Hearing the story about the mormon militia makes it all click.
Fantastic discussion of Mormon history! Thank you so much for this! 🙏
I have learned more as an Exmo than I ever learned as a TBM!
I’m not a Mormon and this channel has my jaw permanently opened
Welp if you missed it DON'T... I've listened to 10000"s of hours and this was amazing.
Exceptional interview. Great podcast.
Excellent excellent!!! Can’t wait for the next part!!
It always bugs me that the members do all the apologetics and the leaders sit back with no accountability or comment or interest it seems..thats a no no for me...seers and revelators my foot!!
As Lindsay mentioned, I've for a while thought that was an accurate and fair way to look at things here. Just throw out any top 5 issues you want, but leave the other 45 open to honest discussion...
Although, there sure seems to be a lot more than 50 "concerns."
I keep hearing the statement from the movie a few good men, "and the hits just keep on coming..."
Bryan is awesome! Great episode!
This was AMAZING! So well presented!
JS Sr.'s alcoholism seems to be worse than I had known.
When I did my first degree, and took world religions as a minor (one credit short as a major), the secular university taught the LDS as a cult. The class also compared and contrasted it with other cults and sects.
Definitely a cult.
It's ridiculous taking anything to do with the idiot Joseph Smith any credibility. 😂
The boundaries between distinct sects of a faith and different religions can be hard to define. At one point Christianity was a sect of Judaism, some may say a cult. In my experience of non US based religious studies cult is used for very recent variants. Sects for groups that are significantly different to the core faith, but longer lasting. Eg Mormons have the Bible but divert dramatically from traditional Christianity but having persisted get called a sect. Labels are tricky, and whilst we might feel drawn to one rather than another, in reality it is about how each person is or feels affected. If one label becomes a barrier to a person engaging with the questions that need to be faced then it is not helpful even if it seems relevant in other contexts
@@helenr4300I agree. I just read an interesting book (I’m sorry the title is escaping me right now) but it argued every organized religion was a cult. It was interesting to read different views, though anything that is a convert type of book has never interested me.
This was great! Can't wait for more!
Hang ON! The colonies were PROTESTANT! Not just Church of England. There were Baptist, Anglican (Church of England) Jews and others just in Rhode Island where I grew up. Roger Williams founded RI to protest the Pilgrims and Anne Hutchinson also set up her own religion in East Providence. So there is a rich history of many different religious ideas just in the New England area alone.
Very excited for part 2!
1:45:51 - my ancestor is Patty Bartlett Sessions and it's very curious that as a midwife (who knew how to perform abortions), she became Joseph's plural wife, and Polyandrous wife, just 2 months before John C. Bennett was officially excommunicated. My theory is that Joseph needed a new abortionist since he was no longer best buddies with John C. Bennet, and she was a perfect option. He didn't want to marry her for sex, surely. She was old. Joseph married her young daughter Silvia Sessions too, so it's odd that he would want Patty as a wife. She was older and already had a Mormon husband. But understanding his need for an abortionist helps to see why the sealing to Patty was advantageous to him for that reason. Allegedly.
Just when I think I knew everything, something new bubbles to the surface. This is the 1st I've heard about Joseph Smith Jr.'s encounters with alcohol as a youth. I love the stories but I'm missing the citations. Can these stories be cited anywhere in the show notes so that we can see them for ourselves? Excellent podcast! I'm so glad I don't have to feel alone in deconstructing 42 years of indoctrination.
Agreed. I've never heard of this either and would love the historical proof.
I think you have to listen to her podcast. At the beginning she said it was a condensed narration.
These people never have proof. They are just anti.
"we can deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy ... but I think that that is a dangerous a dangerous approach to our heritage"
Yes - that idea has been proven in RLDS / Community of Christ history. It was a foundation of their beliefs for a century or so. When they finally stood up and admitted that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, it was devastating to many members. Of course, it was the right thing to do, and CofC is such a good example of a church trying to do the right thing. But their history shows that you will eventually pay for hiding the truth.
I listened to the whole thing! I’m still just confused as to where there’s been a recent upswing in Joseph Smith polygamy denials ???
What do you think? I think if all the major religions in the world started roughly 200 years ago, we would have similar spicy stories about the main characters surrounding those beginnings. 🤔
Yes, probably. You’ve got to have a massive ego, at the very least, to start a religion and believe/pretend you know all.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre should be called “The Mountain Meadows Executions” because that’s what it really was!
MMM rolls of the tongue easier, and in my opinion is more memorable.
So excited about Juanita Brooks biography! On a side note Isaac Haights body was brought home and reburied in Cedar City on 09/16/2023
Iʼm totałły impressed with the depth of Mormon history presented by these two guests. Can’t wait for the next episode.
Such an interesting discussion. Can't wait til part 2.
Yes- I'm looking for parts 2 and 3!
1:54:22 and this applies to any group/church that does Purity Culture stuff like the fundamentalist Catholic community I was part of until four years ago, I was so repressed (I was told not to think about anything sexual as a hormonal teenager and rubbing one out is seen almost as bad as murder when it comes to going to hell) that it was one of the things that messed me up psychologically the most during those years, there’s a reason there’s the “Catholic guilt” meme and I feel lucky that I’ve managed to undo most of that in my life.
Such a great episode! 😊
Lindsay is on fire! Thank you for being the voice for all the women who were considered nothing but a commodity in those days.
She is incredible. So smart and poised and I frankly want to be like her when I grow up. Yes, I am aware she is younger than me but the point still stands.
Amazing collaboration
Such a good show! Super interesting. I wasn't familiar with your guests before seeing this. I am heading to their channel now to subscribe. Ty MS
Fascinating. Thank you both for your scholarship!
This was SUCH A GREAT episode!
AMAZING episode!!!! Love it! ❤
@1:30 you wonder about Joseph Smith's intentions and his integrity. Did he make that up just so that he can boff as many women as he wanted? Well, duh. It surprises me that you would even think that that came from God or that he thought it came from God. This shows how deeply you have been indoctrinated.
I’m curious on the Eliza Winters thing.. where do you find info on her?
Such a great episode!
Wow, what a feast! Can't wait for part 2.
Where can I get sources on all of these things discussed???
Lucinda!!! Great start... these two do their research!
I see that time and again the early Mormons had a joy for living; drinking and dancing. Some of the early members were Quakers and Baptists and more pious. I think Rachel Grant, Heber J. Grants mother had a big impact on the idea of not drinking and the like. My ancestors in Upstate New York were French Huguenots and they came here for religious freedom
OMG! My Cherokee 5X Great-Aunt was married into the Packer family in Missouri! Yes were called half-breeds. The English part of that family came into Jamestown. It’s interesting that Cherokees were also polygamists
john, i'm calling you out. muslims were not practicing polygamy in old testament times because there were no muslims before the 6th century CE. lol. honestly an easy mistake to make. obviously, the whole of what you said is still correct about the prevalence of polygamy in antiquity though.