The problem is smartphone batteries are tiny and low powered (5v USB charging) compared to the batteries which power an eMTB. The [software] battery management to service the [high power] cells in a bike battery is very different - even if the principle is broadly the same.
The problem is they don't have to. Back in the day "everything" was standardized. That's how we got bolt patterns and Philips versus flat screws and things like that. They need to voluntarily accept standards for the FUTURE of the industry. Tldr: he's 100% right. They are being short-sighted and if they had their own future bottom line in mind, they would work collaboratively to come up with a solid system that could be upgraded by their own engineers in the future.
Some ideas! Please share yours below.... How about: 1 - No Proprietary Systems - have a few bolt patterns for full fat / mid / SL motors 2 - Clear Upgrade Path / Future Proof 3 - Trade in process (like phones) to upgrade to new tech
And not just bolt pattern for the motors, but a universal power cable and a universal communications cable so if you change out a motor, it should be as simple as disconnecting a USB C cable and plugging it in to a new motor. Same as if the cable goes bad, it should be easy to find and source. And one step further, a user accessible USB C port on the motor to do firmware updates via USB stick, computer, etc as a backup to bluetooth in case they don't keep up with phone compatibility.
I completely disagree with your points, simply because the technology is too new and needs to develop further before standards become clear. For example if you limit designers with some bolt pattern right now, they can no longer get to the smaller lighter form factors that may be possible if they weren't limited.
@@mayena5735 well, if they do make an, ideally, smaller motor, why can't we have a mount adaptor? that would standardize it and permit more fluidity for development. Similar to brake sizes, wheels, etc. The axels are standard~ish.
@@mayena5735its not that new... And moors law this aint. lets be honest, we all know why they are doing it. Its not like this situation is good for the consumer. This is a manufacturer wet dream, deregulated market, no standards, planned obsolescence, and patents to police. Money.
Wellll until companies do this we all have to stop buying e-bikes. I am contributing by actively avoiding cable headset routing bikes despite being in the market for two new e-bikes.
You just talked about what I thought after buying my Cannondale with the Shimano EP8 (EP800) and a few days later the new version of the EP8 (EP801) appeared, I was shocked by the fact that it was not compatible with my bike frame and battery. I understand the industry but it is a lack of respect for consumers, because I'm subject to the EP800 and the BT8036 battery disappearing from the market when they need to be replaced. This is an expensive bike that was difficult for me to buy, and I don't know if next year I still have spare parts for it. I'm very sad.
This is just another warning sign for anyone buying cutting edge technology, be it E-Mountain Bikes, EV Cars or whatever. Want to be in the forefront of the technology users? Pay the price! Not to say that buying a bike that "pedals for you" is sheer nonsense!
@@candrelsrosaif you don’t like bikes that « pedals for you », why are you here ? I imagine you don’t have a smartphone or a computer that thinks for you 😂
@@slarok1819 He actually has a point. We, the consumers are the problem. We buy overpriced e-bikes with integrated batteries and molded frames for a specific motor for 5k or more. And we know exactly what follows. But we still do it and bicth about it :) That's why I went with BBSHD kit...
The fact that the same generation stuff (801 as a slight improvement to ep8) is incompatible is a joke. This should also be part of the review process as it leaves customers and dealers behind. I don’t get it when production cost are always the argument for price escalation and the industry is not capable of providing adequate spares. Efficiency has not hit the industry yet
First manufacturer who announces a backwards compatible promises or standards collaboration should get your support. When you go into a shop, don’t ask about spec or price first ask about future proofing, repairability, spare parts upgrade paths. I will sometimes phone and ask the price of spare parts of something I haven’t bought yet to see the service.
I’m a diy e-bike rider and because of this I can use whatever battery will fit on my bike at the correct voltage. Currently use a specialized status 2 2014 with a BBSHD and 52v 13ah battery, under frame mounting with a support strap, been running it since 2019, had the motor since 2017, probably around 10000 to 15000 miles on the motor, done 1 maintenance (grease) on inner gears and I’m on my 2nd set of batteries, (I have 2 batteries at time for when I want to do really long rides 50 miles or so.) first 2 batteries lasted 5 years, the range did degrade over time but they still worked great until they died.
Yes, had my Bosch bike since 2014 but when the motor died in 2020 it was quite a hassle but managed to build an adapter for a Bafang Ultra to fit it on. Motor has now around 40.000km (25.000 miles) on it and is still running nicely. The bike frame alone was worth saving it and will easily do another 10 years saving me loads and loads of money by not wasting gas.
Have 7 home built ebikes run cyc or bafangs. All use the same batteries are programmable and will out perform any factory built emtn bikes out there. Hardtail full sus. and road bikes. Build your own and enjoy the ride.
Bafang is probably the only motor system that doesn't do this to an extent. So far the M410, M510, M560 and M600 fits in the same frames and use the same displays. That is what made me choose a Bafang full squish frame with a M600 3 years ago. Made 7000km of hard riding without any motor problems. It's still going strong, but I decided to upgrade the motor to the M560. I would never go with a big brand e-bike for the exact reasons mentioned in the video, They offer no easy way to upgrade or repair. With Bafang, if I break my frame I can still get a new one, if I break my motor I can just get parts to fix it. And it will cost way less than a Yamaha or Bosh. And the charger for the battery is just a standard plug that you find on almost any AC to DC power converter.
When I was making my commuter ebike, I went with the bbs02 as it'll fit in any standard bike, parts are easily available and they keep compatibility going as much as possible. When I do finally get round to upgrading the bike I'll almost certainly be sticking with bafang. Someone just needs to make an open standard, then the market will follow.
@@ChristopherNutt I also have a BBS02B 500w full squish MTB that I built back in 2016-17. My only problem with it, is that the smallest chaining with a good offset I can fit on it is 42T. A bit big for a MTB and I had to make a custom battery to fit in the frame. I still use it as a loner for my bikeless friends. Works fine. But the M560 is just so much more capable in a MTB.
Bafang rock my world... over 2 years, multi builds, some doing 50 miles a day, every day, service is simple every 1000ish miles and the price is unbelievable compared to the rest.. changers slandered, use any battery with the right voltage, all the motors from 250 watts to 1.5 killer watts.... all fit slandered frames, the newer motors all fit in their older frames. what was the problem again... ?
I agree about Bafang. I have a bbso2 that I put on my old Trek and it rocks. Got a couple thousand miles on it. Burned out the display and put on another with no problem. Big name companies with proprietary systems lock you into their product line. I don't see them changing anytime soon. Until then, it`s Bafang for me.
The industry argued the exact opposite thing with cordless powertools, you can't interchange Makita &Milwaukee. The best were going to get is a duopoly of Apple vs the rest
I doubt it will happen. Regulating e-bike parts compatibility is like trying to regulate power tool battery comparability. So many of the e-bikes and batteries that flood into the world are from "random letter companies" in China. China just releases what they feel like, and tells the rest of the world "buy it and deal with it."
You are certainly right Rob, you are verbalising something many people have been saying since the ebike revolution. It would be relatively easy to standardise basic things like chargers. You could have 5 to 10 "standard battery types" to cater for different shape enclosures and capacity. If the larger manufacturers / designer got together and agreed some basic start points this would feed in to the market fairly quickly. The only other way is legislation, as someone else pointed out in the comments, as per USB-C adopted standard (which seems to be working out well already). Thanks for continued good content!
Well said, Rob. This is something that I’ve been mulling over for a while. Three months after I bought my eBike, which I chose with range being a major consideration, Bosch brought out a battery with larger capacity, but… no backward compatibility. I feel that my only upgrades will be every 6-10 years when I can next afford a new bike. Surely, in these ‘greener’ times, manufacturers should be collaborating on compatibility issues. More power to you, Rob.
In my experience owning Bosch, they are mediocre at best. Very expensive, Bosch purposely makes them nearly impossible to repair. I will never again own anything ebike made by Bosch.
Frame design and shape, determine the shape of the battery. Software for a certain battery and motor need to all work together. I think motors, and rebuilds for e bike motors will become easier to get done, or replace. More outfits will get a handle on it, and parts and motors will be more available. These things are kind of new on the marketplace still.
@@bradsanders6954 It takes awhile for individual inventions to arrive at common engineering methods. Motorcycles and automobiles are a good example ot this evolution.
@@bradsanders6954 It is a relatively simple motor mount mod and adapter fabrication to mount a non design spec motor in a bike frame. An aluminum frame is more suitable for mods, besides. By the time a motor needs replacing on a carbon composite bike, the frame is probably going to be shot also. People do not know that carbon composite begins to break down upon the 1st ride. Metal will last indefinitely as long as it's range of elasticity is not exceeded.
Nothing like mountains of eWaste to help people make greener decisions. Great video to draw attention to the issue! Glad people like yourself put in the leg work to create a better tomorrow.
Great to see you highlighting this problem. Exactly something that me and my mate have been discussing. The fact brands like Shimano don’t even have backwards compatibility within their own brand is crazy. Where is the sustainability and what impact will this have environmentally!
It was the same with digital synthesizers back in the day until the manufacturers came together and developed the MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) standard. After that all instruments could be easily hooked up to work with one another. It's still the standard interface today some 40 years on. I think something similar needs to be put in place for EMTB system manufacturers.
100% agree with you Rob! Unfortunately I just can’t see it happening. I’ve been a pro photographer all of my working life and I can tell you now, brands such as Nikon, Canon, Sony and Leica that none of their proprietary systems are in anyway compatible. Worse still third party players such as Tamron and Sigma are increasingly being squeezed by the big four into not producing third party lenses and accessories that are compatible with their proprietary systems. So I’m not holding my breath.
Though I think if you look at professionell photography gear, its much better than on bikes. The canon LP e6 works on pretty much ALL professional canon cameras. Sony also uses one battery for all a7 models I think? Also, all cameras can be charged by usb c. And most lenses can be used with an Adapter on e-mount... Also all tripod mounts are the same (only difference between video and photo). So its not ideal, but not as awefull as on emtbs in my opinion :)
In the early 1980's I bought a Yashica Japanese SLR camera that had a German lens mount, both were compatible with each other. So, it is possible to do that.
This is pretty different though as I can use a cannon lens from 30 years ago on my new camera….its one thing to have standards across brands but part of the issue here is within a brand and within a short period of time there is no compatibility.
@@ryangregoharaheck, I can use a modern Canon EF lens on my Canon EOS 650, released back in 1987. With all the features working, including autofocus.
If the EU or US government would enforce it, they would do it. Simple as. Just requires politicians to pay attention and not sell out to lobbyists. It's slow and often fails, but it does happen. Do you think Apple would have EVER switched to USB-C if the EU didn't force them?
I regret buying an EMTB and this is one of the reasons why. I love riding my bike, it’s a Nukeproof Megawatt, it’s great. However, I’m fully aware of the issues and concerns with the motor and it’s a point of contention when deciding to ride in certain places and weather conditions because of the failure rate. Mines in the last few months of warranty and the prospect of a huge repair bill and no alternative solution has ruined the ownership experience (and I probably speak for most EP8 owners). I won’t even consider buying a new e-bike in the future if the industry doesn’t realise a set of standards need to exist. The bike industry cannot expect people to keep parting with THOUSANDS for something, like you’ve mentioned, becomes obsolete within a few months. I don’t think a standard would curtail innovation or increase costs, any brand uses those as an excuse are just plain lazy.
Thank you for this! Cross-incompatibility has cost me more than anything else involving eBikes, ultimately. I love the analogy made earlier about phone chargers.
I've been thinking this for ages. I'm glad you've brought this up. Ironically, the environmental impact of having to throw away the entire bike because one component is no longer available or made for the bike - is a major contradiction. How hard is it for all motors and battery frame mounts to conform to the same basic dimensions for all bike frames? That's all you have to do to create interoperability. Then for the rest of the bike's mechanics - we have over a century of bicycle component evolution - of wheels, gears, tires, brakes - which all work fine and don't require reinvention!
You're not throwing away a 'whole bike' only replacing the frame - which with an eMTB also contains a motor, battery and control unit. You need to consider an eMTB frameset as a complete unit, just as if you decided to buy a new regular frame... it will just cost a bit more.
The parameters you mention are not difficult at all- if you watch the video carefully, he mentions that the e-bike motor companies are making newer versions of motors that fit exactly in the same place as the previous versions, but there currently is no way to make it work because of firmware requirements.
@@yodapig that could be an option. The notion of expensive lightweight carbon frames for E-MTBs seems absurd to me when you consider what batteries weigh anyway. Problem is... who's selling them?
The environmental impact could be a political argument to push for "green" standards for reuse. Require mfgrs to responsibly recycle their own parts, for example.
This is the main reason why I bought a LightCarbon frame. With a Bafang system (even if it remains a bit proprietary) we still have the choice of three engine powers (m510, M600, M560) which adapts to the frame. Batteries can be bought anywhere and above all it's much cheaper! We have the choice of many display models (small, large...) Of course, there should be a consortium between all the brands so that they agree on a standard for fixing the motors and so be free to choose your engine as well as the choice of brand! I really have a lot of trouble seeing 750wh BOSCH batteries for more than 1000 dollars in my region... The worst thing is that you have no competition to reduce this price and it's simply nonsense. abuse of dominant position in the market and sooner or later they will be condemned for it. Just like derailleur pastes where everyone should adopt SRAM's UDH system. I am lucky enough to be self-taught and have no limitations when it comes to building a bike, however not everyone is as lucky.
Same reason I went down the 'build your own e-bike' path, as brands all too often disappear from the market.. And you can build the bike to your own personal needs/standards/performance & range - and I've found it's way cheaper because my 1500w48v 52v20ah build would cost around £2k to buy as a factory bike - where I built mine for around £850 and I get great performance & range, and the bike was built around my needs/standards of quality.
The European and Japanese ebike component manufacturers better start collaborating as what will happen is the likes of Bafang , Chinese manufacturing will ultimately wipe the others out of the market because they actually make a more compatible range of components and they will make it cheaper. Take a look at the EV auto industry currently which too is in its early stages of global adoption. Initially it was Tesla but watch this space as the Chinese manufacturers flood the global market with their products...
@@derekharper6031 Yes, I also think that there will be changes over the years. My eyes hurt looking at a $4600 SantaCruz frame. Even though it's a good brand, the price seems unreasonable to me.
Yes, the ebike industry needs standards. But that will only happen when the expensive, big name bike brands demand it. But it is not clear that they will if the door is opened for the Chinese to compete with parts built to the same standards. And of course Bosch and the other motor manufacturers will fight it: requiring a unique mounting means vendor lock-in. They want to be the sole source of all of the pieces, not just the motor and controller, and they don't want their customers to be able to choose competitors' products without extra cost. So don't hold your breath. Of course for a fraction of the price it is possible to buy a decent Chinese ebike with a Bafang motor. LBS hate them - they would rather sell the higher priced Specialized, etc. People need to look more objectively at the Chinese products - they can be quite good, just don't go too cheap.
@@derekharper6031 Grin Tech isn't going anywhere. They've been doing DIY e-bike motors for almost 20 years. That's not a niche the big volume companies can touch.
The solution is the path that I a lot of us, including you in the past Rob, have done. Build your own bike up using a well chosen frame and fitting a kit motor/electronics. It involves research and planning but can result in a fantastic ebike. My version is a CYC Photon kit on a full suspension frame with a battery I have built but the battery could have been bought instead. This summer the ebike kit was removed and I pedalled a fantastic normal bike on a European holiday with others on normal bikes. Back home the motor was put back on and today I've had an absolute blast on an amazing off road trip. It's an incredibly versatile solution. The technology is moving so fast, which we all want to benefit from, that the problems you describe are inevitable. By going DIY you can replace the kit motor/battery with the latest and greatest at a fraction of the cost of a new proprietary ebike whilst keeping your old frame and parts. Thanks for the post but I believe there is already a way forward to mitigate many of the problems you mention. That solution does not involve just popping into a shop and walking out with a brand new ebike that you can ride on straight away however.
Yes you are correct. I was just trying to make the point that it is possible to reduce the financial burden, upgradability and sustainability issues today and still have an oustanding ebike while the proprietary ebike vendors work towards common standards.@@ataksnajpera
You have my support on this. People will stop buying e-bikes and wait for the standards being set after watching your video. The upgradability is a real game changer for e-bike.
You're absolutely correct, I had also identified this and decided to build my own ebike. The battery can easily be replaced at any stage in the future.
Very well said Rob! Thank you for using your platform to voice these concerns that we all share! If these companies don’t come to an agreement we will end up with a lot of ebikes that will end up being trashed because there is no upgrade or even replacement for none working parts! Have you ever tried to buy an ebike motor when your warranty expires??? It’s impossible!
Well said Rob, it’s a nightmare for consumers and shops alike. I would also add that manufacturer’s should be selling all the internal motor parts including circuit boards separately for a minimum of 15 years after the motor ceases production. Only Yamaha do this as far as I know (but not for 15 years). Imagine having a part fail on your car engine and being told you need to buy a new motor, it’s daylight robber.
Perhaps Yamaha do it because they make motorcycles. Car and motorcycle manufacturers are required to have spare parts available for a number of years- 10 at least. I am waiting a while longer until I get an e-bike. I want something that will last at least 5 years if not more, I still have mountain bikes from 2005-2008, 3 of them. Upgraded many parts and still very usable bikes.
Oh will the 800wh fit into my 2019 Trance E+1 that currently has a 500wh battery. After 5 years of use it is still at 94% but it really restricts my riding. My rides are planned around the battery capacity.
Rob.....I totally agree with your take on Cross compatibility! It makes so much sense...maybe 2024 will be the year some manufacture will have the guts to make the leap!
My cheap Chinese rear hub conversion has been faultless. 52V 1500W, giving 1.2kw, up to 45mph and a range between 22 and 75 miles. Total cost was under £1500, and every part practically has been upgraded very easily, and only ONE part I bought online has been unable to be added. Granted, it's not as pretty a bike as these new ones, but repairs are ridiculously easy, and the general uniformity of the parts and components means replacing them or finding parts for them is unbelievably easy. It's more of cruiser than an off roader, given the hard tail frame and absence of rear suspension, but the offensive prices of these new ebikes is prohibitive and NOT in the spirit of ebiking, which began as a cheap easy personal mode of transport..
I love that you made this as I suspected it as such but had no idea of the scope. Brilliant suggestions. I hope this video is seen by the managers and shareholders of all the big and small bike brands. This isn’t a rant - its a call to action.
Ripper video Rob, so true. The other issue is that parts for older bikes can be hard to get. I have two 2017 Levos that will be thrown away when motors / batteries are no longer available which is bad for the environment and the wallet. Upgradable would keep these bikes going.
You have an interesting perspective having so many different brands to ride. I've stuck with Bosch, got a Trek Rail in 2021. I've upgraded everything on the bike and I'll ride it into the ground. I went with Bosch for precisely the reasons you listed, I saw the Shimano motors and knew that they would upgrade soon. So glad I didn't get a Shimano bike. Pinkbike is filled with people asking way to much for their now outdated ebikes. Unfortunately the depreciation on these is going to be heavy. If you bought an $8,000 bike two years ago you honestly will be lucky to get $3500 for it now. Its part of the ebike game, you will loose money on them, but the joy outweighs the loss.
So true, i have also got the rail and upgraded and will run it into the ground. Fantastic bike, but one of the main reasons i brought it was the Bosch system. I knew after the warranty period you could get the parts and repair the motor if it failed. Bosch will supply the parts also.
AMEN BROTHER! This INCOMPATIBILITY, even within the same brand, is a real problem with no chance of standardization in the foreseeable future. We are in the "wild west" stage of e-bike technology.
Rob, it seems like shimano or sram should lead this effort. Bosch and brose are too committed to planned obsolescence. I trust the Japanese will eventually get this and Shimano will lead…Let’s hope so.
Considering how Shimano is trying to kill all backwards and cross compatibility with CUES, I would be surprised if they were more collaborative with their ebikes standards
@@InventorZahran Bosch is still the best when it comes to their ebike systems, their batteries are very good, their motors are very good, their displays are very good, their chargers rarely break and to top it of their warranty is the best in the industry (3 years instead of 2 from the rest). Anyway, ebike motors are not something you want to take apart as a bike fitter, it's like taking apart a Rohloff gearhub, you'll need a lot of knowlegde and special tools (you'll rarely use). Just send the thing in and get a replacement, let the manufacturer deal with the repair.
@@itsme1275 I think at least since 2017 when I started working in a bikeshop. I don't want to come off as a Bosch shill (see my other comment) but when it comes to ebike systems Bosch is the best imo. Shimano Steps is okay but a replacement motor costs up to a 1000 euro whereas a Bosch motor is half that for instance, batteries are about the same prices.
Completely on point and the reason i went the diy route with a CYC Photon and really could not be happier. For now. Maybe the industry will sort itself out, currently buyers have considerable power. Ebikes are going to cause vast amounts of e-waste.
@ataksnajpera same as any ebike, then. CYC has also recently changed their approach to service and parts which may make it easier than the big brands (who restrict parts availability to customers) for customers to repair
That's why bafang kits are the way to go. I added one to a donor mtb a few years ago. Can be fitted to any bike with a conventional bottom bracket leaving you able to customise bike any way you want.
Brilliant Rob hit the nail on the head ,wouldn’t it be nice to buy an ebb frame and choose you system/ motor etc as we did with steam bikes a few years back choice of every different part so your bike has its own personality 😊
Spot on Rob! I would confidently wager that most cyclists are quite strongly focussed on sustainability, so that is sizeable group. We need to rally behind this message and demand, with our wallets, as that’s how brands are most firmly woken up, that this is the future we want. And, we also want retrofit kits designed and built by brands/manufacturers to mend the damage already done.
@@sahhullyes. Can you suggest a better term in English? I do appreciate that Dutch differentiates between wielrenners and fietsers. But both of those classes would be cyclists in English.
@@DizzyDiddy for me. A cyclist is the human powering the bike. He is cycling. Electric bikes are more similar to motor cycles. The term I use for them cannot be repeated. The UK cyclists I come across on a daily basis are lawless scum that believe that the highway code and traffic laws don't apply to them. However they are the loudest voice when the nasty driver hits them, even if they didn't look, jumped the traffic light, cycled the wrong way down a one way street. Or just ride along on the pavement.
@@sahhull there is a huge range of things that falls under the electric bike umbrella and I agree that many of those are more like motorcycles. But bicycles with battery assistance that only work when pedaling and only up to relatively low speeds are definitely still human powered bicycles operated by cyclists. I don't think English is going to develop a distinction between them and people using non-battery assisted bikes.
@@DizzyDiddy at the moment it's more like the wild west. Electric scooters are illegal to use on the street but as long as you are not a fool the police won't do anything. The same with fully electric bikes. Unless they draw attention to themselves.
Fantastic video as always Rob, by why not go one step further and offer the brands an opportunity to use this as a platform for collaboration. Even if you get a couple, it's a start.
@@Dryb1as Yeah, that's true, as soon there would be an open standard, third party companies could kick in and start selling batteries for way lower prices. Currently you need to pay around 500 euro for a 150/250wh range extender from these brands, power stations with the same amount of watt hours are available for 150-200 euro. The small BMS chip in the battery costs probably 2-3 euro in production.... they will never give up these money cows and will work hard, to find reasons, why this will not be possible. It would only be attractive for very small brands, where customers are too scared to buy it, because they aren't sure if they got any spare parts in the future....
With over 400k subscribers, you're a major voice of the EMTB community Rob, and thank for saying would needed to be said. Now, something else to consider. Yes universal fitment and standards, tech and hardware and backwards compatability but also, full serviceability and diagnostics. I feel that, if these changes dont happen, EMTB could very well end as just a fad. Sure, its big business, for now. But how many consumers took the plug, bought the bike, ride it for 2 years and bam. Broken, and the choice. Either pay outrageous money for an entire motor, or throw the bike away. Buy an analog frame, a REAL nice one for the same money as a motor and swap all parts over. Then swear to never, ever buy another EMTB. This is a very real situation now that we are years in and EMTB really took off. A situation that IS happening, and could turn the EMTB into a fad. A "remember those bikes with motors and batteries", yeah those things were awesome, but you couldn't fix them.....a slippery slope the MTB business can be. Just look at it now as a whole vs, just 2 years ago...
owning a Bosch system. I found out the hard way you cannot even buy a plug that fits the charging socket. they don't, wont, can't??? It is illegal in some countries not to be able to get spare parts for items to be repaired.. And yet here we are, selling a product as 'green' that is completely disposable... A great vide Rob. Thanks. More needs to happen to stop this waste..
Another problem not mentioned is spare parts and repairability when the manufacturer abandons older batteries and motors. Terrible if you have to get a whole new bike because your battery is dead and there's no way to get a new one because compatible batteries aren't being produced anymore.
Absolutely agree Rob, I bought a Kenevo SL as my first ebike, then new rumours started that there was going to be a new motor. Then the SL 1.2, not available for retro fit even though it has the same mounts. New prices of the old bikes fell through the floor. This knocks on to second hand values. So your left with a bike the manufacturer won’t let you upgrade that’s worth nothing, not even out of warranty. Don’t get me wrong I have loved riding my ebike, but had I known how unreliable they are and how much value a 12 month old bike can lose I would have picked differently.
I am in the exact same boat with a KSL. I’m super frustrated. I love e-bikes and they have their place in mountain biking but I just don’t think I can buy another one with these issues.
I’m in the same situation bought a KSL earlier this year then not long after specialized slashed there prices by almost 50% so I now have a bike that I can’t upgrade the motor on to the latest model since specialized won’t allow it and set to lose substantially on it when I come to sell it.
When ebikes started out, i thought this is a natural consequence of the rapidly evolving tech - things weren't very good yet, so you couldn't expect stuff to stay compatible because it changed so much. Now the tech is quite mature and there is no excuse for incompatible parts any more. It won't get fixed without regulation though, same as the phone chargers
I agree. I can not afford a new emtb. I did buy a 2017 Giant Full E+ 1emtb March 2023. Love this bike. But I tried using Giant's app and it will not sync with my bike. Too old. I'm sure they can do something about this, but I doubt it. A few standards on the electronics of these bikes would be great. Let's hope it happens soon. Tyvm for your time.
This is why I have a BBS02 with an AliExpress battery on a 2008 bike. It's almost all off-the-shelf components and even the motor is surprisingly serviceable.
@@sonnylatchstringwhat if the best selling bike, is the the middle of the road, kinda heavy, loud, inefficient, but cheap? If just two of the bigger companies agreed to standardize then they would probably gain more market share and it might get other competitors to join in, or group their technology with another brand, or two. It has to have a commercial benefit for the companies for it to happen. Right now it’s the Wild West of e bike innovation. If companies are locked into backward compatibility, or frame geometry (bolt patterns) or battery chemistry, then they can’t do anything revolutionary. Technology and innovation will stagnate, or at least move very slowly. It becomes innovation/design by committee, which never works well.
Unfortunately, It will probably be the One Company or Wealthy Investor that buys them ALL out, and Monopolizes the market. (That seems to be the only way to ever make competing companies cooperate)
Great vid and a very important perspective. I think consumer awareness of this needs to improve a lot, and consumer choices as well. I figured this out early on and chose to build my own bike based on the current bottom (regular bike) bracket standards. There are some great motors out there that will fit your bottom bracket, also some advanced ones like that ones put out by Cyc. Rob perhaps you can help more here by bringing the good existing options into view also? Again very important topic and great that you shed some light on it.
A rant worth having, Rob. I agree with you 100%, especially as someone who purchased an eMTB last year for $NZ9000 and it's likely it'll be the last brand new bike I buy and while I love my Focus eMTB to bits, it's likely the only things I'll be upgrading in future will be components that wear out. It would be so much easier to have standardised formats/standards that means people can upgrade a motor if they want to or buy an battery extender. Trouble is, manufacturers want to lock people into one brand ecosystem by creating proprietary systems. Big name PC makers have done it for years and it creates all sorts of problems. Here's hoping your on-point rant will hit home with some of the companies and they'll start being a little more consumer-friendly.
This is exactly why I have waited to buy an e bike. Every time this happens with electrical products. Same with all the different phone chargers. It’s a big con. Thank you for exposing this scam.
This was the case with all the mechanical bike parts you mentioned when they first came out (derailleur hangars, steerer tubes, axles, bottom brackets, etc...). I think in 10-20 years you'll get your wish. It will take one or two brands like Sram and Shimano taking over the industry to make things cross compatible.
Uh. 1" steer tubes existed for over 100 years. 10mm axles. the same. We've had standard deraileur hangars for almost 100 years. 9mm QR's for 70. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's only been in the last 15 years or so have they decided to repeatedly change these standards.
Agreed. Mountain bike designs continue to evolve rapidly, especially full suspension which is affecting drive train changes as well. Now we're seeing a possible shift from external derailleur shifting to belt drives and internal gear systems, this I think partially motivated by anticipated ebike needs. It may be a few years get for these designs to be optimized enough to standardize.
I’ve been following the progression of EMTBs for some years now, but this is precisely why I haven’t bought one yet. I am prepared to pay the high purchase price because I understand why they are expensive but I’m not accepting the probability that I’ll be stuck with an unserviceable bike after maybe a couple of years.
You'll likely be waiting forever then... there is nothing to say a current eMTB won't last you for years - it might not have the 'latest' tech, but really who cares? - you'll be out riding... the only thing you might want to consider a few years down the line is the availability of a replacement battery if yours is finally exhausted. If you consider how few people are riding ten year old regular bikes, never mind twenty year old bikes, then it's likely your carbon fibre frame will have cracked long before your motor has failed.
Dito. I really need an EMTB to get back out on the trails after years of not riding because of an injury. But not being able to purchase spare parts and service the motor myself is such bs.
Never has a better word been said Rob, I have to applaud you regarding this topic. Let’s be clear here, this would surely benefit the ebike industry brands across the board in these testing times. Many of us can afford upgrading bikes every few years, however many can’t including moi………. I’d love to have a bigger battery or at else get an extender battery for my Bosch Gen 4 motor , but alas no chance ! Remember big brands as said, you can’t have your cake and eat it to! I’m a loyal buyer, if I like a brand I’ll stay with them if I know they’ll do they utmost to keep my loyalty……… however, as you rightly mentioned, we need more ! Let’s hope your words will make the brands like “ this guys right, we need to collaborate “……….. keep up the fantastic work your putting out 👏🏽
Good job, Rob. You succinctly and elegantly put out what I wanted to scream out loud in rage. Not sure what power we consumers have to force manufacturers to develop standards across the board.
This is an important talking point. Well done for raising these issues, they really need to be addressed by the manufacturers, sooner rather than later.
A brilliant piece, Rob. Congratulations. 100 per cent of consumers will agree with you. However, I doubt the various manufacturers will -- they have their own drums to beat. Only an international cycle control organisation will be able to bring a sensible order to the e-bike cycling industry and I doubt that it will happen any time soon. Anyway, we Aussies (I feel sure), are right behind you. Good luck on your crusade.
Same story with power tool batteries. There are third party companies that make converters but they are big and bulky and could maybe damage your expensive batteries if there is no protection from overheating or over discharging
Not the same. A 10 year old tool can work with a brand new battery and vice versa. And all major brands have well established battery systems with huge catalogs tools, new and old.
My question here is for how long we will be able to find spare parts for a specific ebike? Or ebike manufacturers expect us to buy a new ebike once spare parts are discontinued for the ebike you already own?
How far back do you want to go? - You could say the same about any older bike... There comes a time when any manufacturer is going to stop supporting older products, although at least larger manufacturers (Specialized, Giant, Trek etc) are likely to hold an inventory of spares until they are depleted.
Just had it with my Cargo Bike last spring. After two years and a few weeks the motor seized (around 6500km) and I needed to get it fixed with a bike-shop nearby as I don't get access to the motor. Even they had some issues getting the motor. If shimano plulls the Plug on the production or decides not to supply an exchange motor for whatever reason I am left with the choice of finding a good welder to mangle with it That is quite a biiiiiiig bonus for Hub-Motors or Conversion kits. Furthermore, I am told it can be a daily ride but need to wait 8 Weeks for a replacement motor?! There is still some progress to be taken, but not on the engineering side alone.
Very good video, addressing issues where factory support is seriously lacking. I have a 2021 Orbea Rise. The battery is beginning to show signs of age. I can’t seem to get 20 miles of relatively flat terrain, riding. Someone should come up with a bottom bracket that would take the place of the motor. In my case if I removed the battery and motor, then installed a fake motor/bottom bracket, I’d have a slightly heavy “analog” MTB.
Good call - thank you! We definitely need better component compatibility and interoperability here! That being said, I am slightly sceptical regarding the idea of one charger for all ebikes. Some bikes run on 36 V, while others have a 48 V system, and then there is 52 V and maybe even further voltages... While it is possible in principle to develop one charger that could work for a range of battery voltages, this would then become a somewhat expensive charger, and particularly for bikes with lower battery voltage this would be adding cost noticeably. However, it would still be good to standardise charging connectors (and introduce voltage compatibility protection in some way, to ensure that it is impossible to connect or use a charger for a different voltage than that of the battery...).
I'm sure he means to have a universal connectors. I couldn't find a charger for mine so I had to just find a charger rated for 48v 2amp output and just soldered the connector from the old charger and its still going strong even a year after. Oddly enough the original charger only lasted 6 months.
@@jrok96 - he literally says: "... let's have one particular charger that can work across all the different bikes!" (6:20) You may be right that he meant the connector, but he does talk about the "charger". And yes, I do appreciate that the word "charger" is sometimes used somewhat loosely. As I wrote, this would be technically possible, but not necessarily sensible.
Holy smokes, Rob, you're right. I didn't even think about my new Trek Fuel EXe being 'outdated' like my smartphone. I was hoping and kinda expecting, when TQ comes out with a 65nm '2.0' version, I might be able to upgrade it. Crap.
Excellent point, glad you made it!! Besides the money aspect for riders, in this day and age companies building something to go enjoy the outdoors should also consider hugely to be environmentally tuned in. This hole thing as it stands is certainly not ... :(
Great video and points about this. I bought a specialized kenevo since I figure they’ve sold so many (same motor and battery as Levos) and are a big company so fingers crossed I can get needed parts well into the future. As far as upgrading it, I’ll just have to be happy if I can get replacement parts in the future.
Exactly - be happy with the bike you own now. And as you surmise, a larger brand like Specialized is more likely to be in a position to offer parts support for older models for as long as they can.
As a kid in the 50s we all built our own bikes around second hand frames. We even learned how to build a wheel from a hub, rim and spokes. No shortage of spares and we upgraded as we could afford. Not these days. You have given a good reason not to buy an e-bike.
Just put a mid drive motor like cyc photon on any frame.you want and plug any open standard battery and universal charger. I can even remove the motor in 15min and have my muscular enduro back.
@@williambrandondavis6897 what innovation is there to be had?? motor technology hasn't changed much in the past 20 yrs, there's only a few sensible placements for batteries, its all just an arms race of stupidity designed to edge each other out of the market. The EU and any other government should absolutely step in to regulate both compatibility, and the quality of these insanely flammable batteries.
Learning soldering and having some slight fabrication skills which includes finding good straps or alternative mounting options will solve most of your battery/charging issues. We put XT60s on all of our chargers and batteries so everything is compatible plug and play situations. Some times you have to put in a little extra work with e bikes unfortunately. Would not recommend DIY E bikes to someone with no mechanical skills.
Well said! I’d like to add that bike manufacturers aren’t locking anybody into their products when you can’t upgrade from say the ep8 to ep801 or get the newer SL engine.
Great point Rob! Unfortunately or fortunately that's why I haven't jumped into the eBike game yet because there's always massive iterations before they start to get things standard along withholding a captivated audience as a consumer so that we buy only their stuff and not have a universal option. I'm hoping some company will do the ultimate design of making your regular bike and e-bike without it being to at risk of getting smashed. I know there's some ideas out there. That way you can get a motor and a battery that will be universal for all the bikes and all the battery/motor companies like Bosch will have to make a universal to compete
This is pretty much why I didn't get one so far. And I'm too lazy to just modify bike myself, but basically for long life I would need to do it this way. Also thing is not so much about the competition as about you going like a good doggie back to company every time something is not ok, because you cannot fix it yourself I bet battery packs will have some quirk preventing you from replacing old cells with new ones in it, and other shenanigans for other parts as well.
In 1988 the Society of Automotive Engineers came out with ideas and recommendations for OBD-II ports. A universal diagnostic port with standardized codes and programming. It also allows manufacturers to have their own programs and codes to suit their needs. It's on every consumer car and truck from 1996 onward. California mandated it's use and drove that change. We probably need a central engineering society for the bike industry to be able to drive any sort of meaningful change in this, otherwise people will design what's best for their company in their own little silos. Shimano seems to be the best about system integration, that's probably why we see so many bikes with Shimano systems in general.
Great video and rant! I use an ebike for commuting and on the weekends, I use an analog mountain bike for adventure. Yes, it takes me longer to charge up the hill; get passed by other eMTBers & the occasional eMoto bike; but I like the simplicity of my setup to release much needed stress and at the same time, also the endorphins. Get out there and just enjoy the ride.
I think it is reasonable to expect that vendors provide an upgrade path for form-factor compatible parts. I am resolved that my ep8/steps bike will not have a future (nor do I plan on buying Shimano anything ever again) but am still hopefull that Spec will do the right thing when it comes time to replace the motor in my KSL. Vote with your $$.
Good insights. I'm of the belief that 2024 is going to be disastrous for MANY manufactures across ALL sectors, not just bikes. Maybe some consolidation and compatibility will come out of the tough times coming...
USB charger should work on these batteries. USB is already at 240 Watts, and increasing. Cars already have the standard data interface port for On Board Diagnostics - OBD Port. We could have a Proprietary Tax which is applied when an industry doesn't create a standard, or they create products that don't use an existing standard. Genuine advances would be worth the initial tax cost and could apply for the exemption and refund.
Great observation. I'm just starting my journey to purchase an e-mtb. Now I'm going to consider waiting a couple of years. 10k is way too much to be obsolete in 6 months.
If just two of the bigger companies agreed to standardize then they would probably gain more market share and it might get other competitors to join in, or group their technology with another brand, or two. It has to have a commercial benefit for the companies for it to happen. Right now it’s the Wild West of e bike innovation. If companies are locked into backward compatibility, or frame geometry (bolt patterns) or battery chemistry, then they can’t do anything revolutionary. Technology and innovation will stagnate, or at least move very slowly. It becomes innovation/design by committee, which never works well.
100% agreement. I’m a simple casual ebiker. My old reliable Rad e-bike is completely upgradable. It’s certainly not a high tech slim modern bike. But it gets me all over town as a daily rider.
While agree that this is incredibly annoying, it is also the problem of this being a relatively young market. Forcing everyone to use the same standard will be great for a few years, until we find that the standard is subpar. Standardization is great for mature fields where everyone is basically producing the same thing (e.g. phone chargers) and there isn't much room for innovation, but forcing standardization too early could leave us with an inferior result that then becomes difficult to change (e.g. what if we forced everyone to use micro-USB 10 years ago?). I think the best place to start encouraging standardization would be in ebike charging ports, as there probably isn't much meaningful difference between the current ports. Standardizing the size of batteries or motors would be more problematic, as there is a lot more innovation that could happen in bike geometry, such as smaller batteries, different layouts, or including the battery as a stressed member of the frame.
Agreed - charging ports is the place to start, then slimming down the range of battery form factors by 90%, then motor mounts. Ebikes have been around long enough and we are in an environmental crisis. Time for regulatory action. And who cares about new features - ebikes are easily good enough already - what we need is sustainable standards and ensuring buyer confidence
Thanks Rob! It’s too true! At the moment, the only slightly more sustainable solution is conversion kits but it would be such a step forward to see cross compatibility with integrated systems.
Glad you covered this! I'm new to the ebike market but have worked in mobile and computers, which have all had their issues with proprietary components and thus high costs. It typically takes economic pressure and sometimes regulation to transition the market from expensive/proprietary to modular/open architectures. This _could_ happen now that bike demand has slowed -- people just aren't running out to buy a $10K ebike that depreciates like a sled. The bike makers in theory should be motivated to adopt swappable components that reduce their costs, though it comes down to how much economic pressure they have to reduce prices. Worth watching out for attempts at regulatory capture by the motor makers via UL requirements (e.g. - introduce standards that make it easier to maintain consumer lock-in to proprietary systems). Time for an open architecture standard for ebikes that is modular, perhaps?
Great post. Computers, Phones, Tesla’s (charging) have followed the same path. BUT, I also remember my Marzocchi shock on my bike was non-standard for repair so even the analog world suffers from this. One extra note: Scott Bikes just took on the TQ motor (like Trek). This is a good thing - the more different manufacturers that take on this means that standards are being set.
You hit the nail on the head. I bought an e-bike 3 years ago and had so many issues with it, that I ended up selling it due to motor problems that Specialized would not warranty. There are so many problems with reliability of e-bikes across the board that leaves buyers with an expensive system that looses so much value. Same non-sense with electric car charging standards, first CHAdemo, then CCS then NACS. Chademo is failing badly and next will be CCS with those massive charging cables and it seems that NACS (Tesla) will be the standard moving forward. This should have been done 10 years ago.
I built my own one and only eBike seven years ago. It's a Bafang BBSHD middrive kit mounted on a hardtail MTB. Nothing is proprietary apart from the Controller firmware which apparently has since been hacked. I bought a 14S (so called 52V) 20Ah battery from from another vendor where I could even specify what connectors it should have. I since tuned it up to 18S 45A 3kW by various modifications. All mechanical and electrical parts can be replaced by spare parts by myself (should I ever break something). The communication protocol is still in use today so I can fit whichever display I would want. Living in EU, my eBike is not registered because it's above 250W, though I've met guy who managed to get his insured against collision. I don't think I'd ever buy anything proprietary like Bosch for the same reasons mentioned in the video.
Thanks so much for saying this. This has always really, really bothered me over the course of owning 3-4 ebikes over a decade. TBH I don't care about being able to access new features, I just want to be able to get replacement parts a few years down the track, whether the vendor still exists or not.. And not have to hunt them down from some far corner of the globe. As a utility rider, I've generally avoided these problems by converting or buying bikes using cheap Asian components - which genreally are far more universal than euro parts. I recently weakened when I got a good deal on a German Karlkoff, but even within a year trying to find parts for it is a total pain. Yes this really is the dirty little secret about ebike's but nobody talks about. Which has always surprise me, as much as I think of ebike's is really one of the most game changing technologies in the middle of our climate crisis, far more so than EVs. There's much talk about the problems of recycling batteries, but I believe the waste with nonreplaceable parts may well be worse still. Particularly given this is a mostly European problem, it would be great if the EU could step in here the same way that they are with Apple and insisting on standardisation for USB connectors. AND SOON. Thanks again, please don't give up on this and do encourage others to be raising this issue.
This is absolutely brilliant! I don't even have an ebike, but this popped up on my feed and I couldn't agree more with everything you said. It would be great to get this discussed in parliament. Although with this utterly useless government, I doubt anyone will care. Worth a try!
Someone finally said it. Phones are a very good example of charging standards that the bike industry should take notes from. Thanks for the video Rob.
Nu ma asteptam sa te gasesc aici. Salutare! :)
I think USB type C at 240W (48v at 5A) is enough to charge a bike. And everyone will be happy
on the contrary, phones are a good example of planned obsolescence as well. No way to upgrade and basically useless after a few years
The problem is smartphone batteries are tiny and low powered (5v USB charging) compared to the batteries which power an eMTB. The [software] battery management to service the [high power] cells in a bike battery is very different - even if the principle is broadly the same.
The problem is they don't have to.
Back in the day "everything" was standardized. That's how we got bolt patterns and Philips versus flat screws and things like that. They need to voluntarily accept standards for the FUTURE of the industry.
Tldr: he's 100% right. They are being short-sighted and if they had their own future bottom line in mind, they would work collaboratively to come up with a solid system that could be upgraded by their own engineers in the future.
Some ideas! Please share yours below.... How about:
1 - No Proprietary Systems - have a few bolt patterns for full fat / mid / SL motors
2 - Clear Upgrade Path / Future Proof
3 - Trade in process (like phones) to upgrade to new tech
And not just bolt pattern for the motors, but a universal power cable and a universal communications cable so if you change out a motor, it should be as simple as disconnecting a USB C cable and plugging it in to a new motor. Same as if the cable goes bad, it should be easy to find and source. And one step further, a user accessible USB C port on the motor to do firmware updates via USB stick, computer, etc as a backup to bluetooth in case they don't keep up with phone compatibility.
I completely disagree with your points, simply because the technology is too new and needs to develop further before standards become clear.
For example if you limit designers with some bolt pattern right now, they can no longer get to the smaller lighter form factors that may be possible if they weren't limited.
@@mayena5735 well, if they do make an, ideally, smaller motor, why can't we have a mount adaptor?
that would standardize it and permit more fluidity for development.
Similar to brake sizes, wheels, etc. The axels are standard~ish.
@@mayena5735its not that new... And moors law this aint. lets be honest, we all know why they are doing it. Its not like this situation is good for the consumer. This is a manufacturer wet dream, deregulated market, no standards, planned obsolescence, and patents to police. Money.
Wellll until companies do this we all have to stop buying e-bikes. I am contributing by actively avoiding cable headset routing bikes despite being in the market for two new e-bikes.
You just talked about what I thought after buying my Cannondale with the Shimano EP8 (EP800) and a few days later the new version of the EP8 (EP801) appeared, I was shocked by the fact that it was not compatible with my bike frame and battery. I understand the industry but it is a lack of respect for consumers, because I'm subject to the EP800 and the BT8036 battery disappearing from the market when they need to be replaced. This is an expensive bike that was difficult for me to buy, and I don't know if next year I still have spare parts for it. I'm very sad.
This is just another warning sign for anyone buying cutting edge technology, be it E-Mountain Bikes, EV Cars or whatever. Want to be in the forefront of the technology users? Pay the price! Not to say that buying a bike that "pedals for you" is sheer nonsense!
@@candrelsrosaif you don’t like bikes that « pedals for you », why are you here ? I imagine you don’t have a smartphone or a computer that thinks for you 😂
@@slarok1819 He actually has a point. We, the consumers are the problem. We buy overpriced e-bikes with integrated batteries and molded frames for a specific motor for 5k or more. And we know exactly what follows. But we still do it and bicth about it :) That's why I went with BBSHD kit...
The fact that the same generation stuff (801 as a slight improvement to ep8) is incompatible is a joke. This should also be part of the review process as it leaves customers and dealers behind. I don’t get it when production cost are always the argument for price escalation and the industry is not capable of providing adequate spares. Efficiency has not hit the industry yet
The main problem with e-bikes is the price. How the hell do they try to justify motorcycle prices for a damn bike. Smfh
First manufacturer who announces a backwards compatible promises or standards collaboration should get your support.
When you go into a shop, don’t ask about spec or price first ask about future proofing, repairability, spare parts upgrade paths.
I will sometimes phone and ask the price of spare parts of something I haven’t bought yet to see the service.
I’m a diy e-bike rider and because of this I can use whatever battery will fit on my bike at the correct voltage. Currently use a specialized status 2 2014 with a BBSHD and 52v 13ah battery, under frame mounting with a support strap, been running it since 2019, had the motor since 2017, probably around 10000 to 15000 miles on the motor, done 1 maintenance (grease) on inner gears and I’m on my 2nd set of batteries, (I have 2 batteries at time for when I want to do really long rides 50 miles or so.) first 2 batteries lasted 5 years, the range did degrade over time but they still worked great until they died.
BAFANG POWAAA
exactly why i diy. (running diy on a 1990s Saracen vice)
Yes, had my Bosch bike since 2014 but when the motor died in 2020 it was quite a hassle but managed to build an adapter for a Bafang Ultra to fit it on. Motor has now around 40.000km (25.000 miles) on it and is still running nicely. The bike frame alone was worth saving it and will easily do another 10 years saving me loads and loads of money by not wasting gas.
Wise words
Have 7 home built ebikes run cyc or bafangs. All use the same batteries are programmable and will out perform any factory built emtn bikes out there. Hardtail full sus. and road bikes. Build your own and enjoy the ride.
Bafang is probably the only motor system that doesn't do this to an extent. So far the M410, M510, M560 and M600 fits in the same frames and use the same displays. That is what made me choose a Bafang full squish frame with a M600 3 years ago. Made 7000km of hard riding without any motor problems. It's still going strong, but I decided to upgrade the motor to the M560. I would never go with a big brand e-bike for the exact reasons mentioned in the video, They offer no easy way to upgrade or repair. With Bafang, if I break my frame I can still get a new one, if I break my motor I can just get parts to fix it. And it will cost way less than a Yamaha or Bosh. And the charger for the battery is just a standard plug that you find on almost any AC to DC power converter.
Let's have someone post a video on this. I'd take any band that isn't about planned obsolescence. The rest can loose business till they get a clue
When I was making my commuter ebike, I went with the bbs02 as it'll fit in any standard bike, parts are easily available and they keep compatibility going as much as possible. When I do finally get round to upgrading the bike I'll almost certainly be sticking with bafang. Someone just needs to make an open standard, then the market will follow.
@@ChristopherNutt I also have a BBS02B 500w full squish MTB that I built back in 2016-17. My only problem with it, is that the smallest chaining with a good offset I can fit on it is 42T. A bit big for a MTB and I had to make a custom battery to fit in the frame. I still use it as a loner for my bikeless friends. Works fine. But the M560 is just so much more capable in a MTB.
Bafang rock my world... over 2 years, multi builds, some doing 50 miles a day, every day, service is simple every 1000ish miles and the price is unbelievable compared to the rest.. changers slandered, use any battery with the right voltage, all the motors from 250 watts to 1.5 killer watts.... all fit slandered frames, the newer motors all fit in their older frames. what was the problem again... ?
I agree about Bafang. I have a bbso2 that I put on my old Trek and it rocks. Got a couple thousand miles on it. Burned out the display and put on another with no problem. Big name companies with proprietary systems lock you into their product line. I don't see them changing anytime soon. Until then, it`s Bafang for me.
I agree absolutely with your call for standardization in the e-bike industry. A strong lobby is needed.
The industry argued the exact opposite thing with cordless powertools, you can't interchange Makita &Milwaukee. The best were going to get is a duopoly of Apple vs the rest
There is one. Its called leva eu. Look it up.. but bosch have far more money to lobby than anyone else
@@janeblogs324update your data, apple was forced to use usb c bu EU
I doubt it will happen. Regulating e-bike parts compatibility is like trying to regulate power tool battery comparability. So many of the e-bikes and batteries that flood into the world are from "random letter companies" in China. China just releases what they feel like, and tells the rest of the world "buy it and deal with it."
@@ValisFan3umm it seems the Bosch, etc are the problem but do blame the Chinese 🤦♂️
You are certainly right Rob, you are verbalising something many people have been saying since the ebike revolution. It would be relatively easy to standardise basic things like chargers. You could have 5 to 10 "standard battery types" to cater for different shape enclosures and capacity. If the larger manufacturers / designer got together and agreed some basic start points this would feed in to the market fairly quickly. The only other way is legislation, as someone else pointed out in the comments, as per USB-C adopted standard (which seems to be working out well already). Thanks for continued good content!
Well said, Rob. This is something that I’ve been mulling over for a while. Three months after I bought my eBike, which I chose with range being a major consideration, Bosch brought out a battery with larger capacity, but… no backward compatibility. I feel that my only upgrades will be every 6-10 years when I can next afford a new bike. Surely, in these ‘greener’ times, manufacturers should be collaborating on compatibility issues. More power to you, Rob.
In my experience owning Bosch, they are mediocre at best. Very expensive, Bosch purposely makes them nearly impossible to repair. I will never again own anything ebike made by Bosch.
Thats why I recommend building your own ebike of your choosing
Frame design and shape, determine the shape of the battery.
Software for a certain battery and motor need to all work together.
I think motors, and rebuilds for e bike motors will become easier to get done, or replace.
More outfits will get a handle on it, and parts and motors will be more available.
These things are kind of new on the marketplace still.
@@bradsanders6954 It takes awhile for individual inventions to arrive at common engineering methods. Motorcycles and automobiles are a good example ot this evolution.
@@bradsanders6954 It is a relatively simple motor mount mod and adapter fabrication to mount a non design spec motor in a bike frame. An aluminum frame is more suitable for mods, besides. By the time a motor needs replacing on a carbon composite bike, the frame is probably going to be shot also. People do not know that carbon composite begins to break down upon the 1st ride. Metal will last indefinitely as long as it's range of elasticity is not exceeded.
Nothing like mountains of eWaste to help people make greener decisions.
Great video to draw attention to the issue! Glad people like yourself put in the leg work to create a better tomorrow.
Great to see you highlighting this problem. Exactly something that me and my mate have been discussing. The fact brands like Shimano don’t even have backwards compatibility within their own brand is crazy. Where is the sustainability and what impact will this have environmentally!
It was the same with digital synthesizers back in the day until the manufacturers came together and developed the MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) standard. After that all instruments could be easily hooked up to work with one another. It's still the standard interface today some 40 years on. I think something similar needs to be put in place for EMTB system manufacturers.
100% agree with you Rob! Unfortunately I just can’t see it happening. I’ve been a pro photographer all of my working life and I can tell you now, brands such as Nikon, Canon, Sony and Leica that none of their proprietary systems are in anyway compatible. Worse still third party players such as Tamron and Sigma are increasingly being squeezed by the big four into not producing third party lenses and accessories that are compatible with their proprietary systems. So I’m not holding my breath.
Though I think if you look at professionell photography gear, its much better than on bikes. The canon LP e6 works on pretty much ALL professional canon cameras. Sony also uses one battery for all a7 models I think? Also, all cameras can be charged by usb c. And most lenses can be used with an Adapter on e-mount... Also all tripod mounts are the same (only difference between video and photo). So its not ideal, but not as awefull as on emtbs in my opinion :)
In the early 1980's I bought a Yashica Japanese SLR camera that had a German lens mount, both were compatible with each other. So, it is possible to do that.
This is pretty different though as I can use a cannon lens from 30 years ago on my new camera….its one thing to have standards across brands but part of the issue here is within a brand and within a short period of time there is no compatibility.
@@ryangregoharaheck, I can use a modern Canon EF lens on my Canon EOS 650, released back in 1987. With all the features working, including autofocus.
If the EU or US government would enforce it, they would do it. Simple as. Just requires politicians to pay attention and not sell out to lobbyists. It's slow and often fails, but it does happen. Do you think Apple would have EVER switched to USB-C if the EU didn't force them?
I regret buying an EMTB and this is one of the reasons why. I love riding my bike, it’s a Nukeproof Megawatt, it’s great. However, I’m fully aware of the issues and concerns with the motor and it’s a point of contention when deciding to ride in certain places and weather conditions because of the failure rate. Mines in the last few months of warranty and the prospect of a huge repair bill and no alternative solution has ruined the ownership experience (and I probably speak for most EP8 owners).
I won’t even consider buying a new e-bike in the future if the industry doesn’t realise a set of standards need to exist. The bike industry cannot expect people to keep parting with THOUSANDS for something, like you’ve mentioned, becomes obsolete within a few months. I don’t think a standard would curtail innovation or increase costs, any brand uses those as an excuse are just plain lazy.
Thank you for this! Cross-incompatibility has cost me more than anything else involving eBikes, ultimately. I love the analogy made earlier about phone chargers.
I've been thinking this for ages. I'm glad you've brought this up. Ironically, the environmental impact of having to throw away the entire bike because one component is no longer available or made for the bike - is a major contradiction. How hard is it for all motors and battery frame mounts to conform to the same basic dimensions for all bike frames? That's all you have to do to create interoperability. Then for the rest of the bike's mechanics - we have over a century of bicycle component evolution - of wheels, gears, tires, brakes - which all work fine and don't require reinvention!
You're not throwing away a 'whole bike' only replacing the frame - which with an eMTB also contains a motor, battery and control unit. You need to consider an eMTB frameset as a complete unit, just as if you decided to buy a new regular frame... it will just cost a bit more.
The parameters you mention are not difficult at all- if you watch the video carefully, he mentions that the e-bike motor companies are making newer versions of motors that fit exactly in the same place as the previous versions, but there currently is no way to make it work because of firmware requirements.
@@yodapig that could be an option. The notion of expensive lightweight carbon frames for E-MTBs seems absurd to me when you consider what batteries weigh anyway. Problem is... who's selling them?
The environmental impact could be a political argument to push for "green" standards for reuse. Require mfgrs to responsibly recycle their own parts, for example.
This is the main reason why I bought a LightCarbon frame. With a Bafang system (even if it remains a bit proprietary) we still have the choice of three engine powers (m510, M600, M560) which adapts to the frame. Batteries can be bought anywhere and above all it's much cheaper! We have the choice of many display models (small, large...) Of course, there should be a consortium between all the brands so that they agree on a standard for fixing the motors and so be free to choose your engine as well as the choice of brand! I really have a lot of trouble seeing 750wh BOSCH batteries for more than 1000 dollars in my region... The worst thing is that you have no competition to reduce this price and it's simply nonsense. abuse of dominant position in the market and sooner or later they will be condemned for it. Just like derailleur pastes where everyone should adopt SRAM's UDH system. I am lucky enough to be self-taught and have no limitations when it comes to building a bike, however not everyone is as lucky.
Same reason I went down the 'build your own e-bike' path, as brands all too often disappear from the market..
And you can build the bike to your own personal needs/standards/performance & range - and I've found it's way cheaper because my 1500w48v 52v20ah build would cost around £2k to buy as a factory bike - where I built mine for around £850 and I get great performance & range, and the bike was built around my needs/standards of quality.
The European and Japanese ebike component manufacturers better start collaborating as what will happen is the likes of Bafang , Chinese manufacturing will ultimately wipe the others out of the market because they actually make a more compatible range of components and they will make it cheaper. Take a look at the EV auto industry currently which too is in its early stages of global adoption. Initially it was Tesla but watch this space as the Chinese manufacturers flood the global market with their products...
@@derekharper6031
Yes, I also think that there will be changes over the years. My eyes hurt looking at a $4600 SantaCruz frame.
Even though it's a good brand, the price seems unreasonable to me.
Yes, the ebike industry needs standards. But that will only happen when the expensive, big name bike brands demand it. But it is not clear that they will if the door is opened for the Chinese to compete with parts built to the same standards. And of course Bosch and the other motor manufacturers will fight it: requiring a unique mounting means vendor lock-in. They want to be the sole source of all of the pieces, not just the motor and controller, and they don't want their customers to be able to choose competitors' products without extra cost. So don't hold your breath.
Of course for a fraction of the price it is possible to buy a decent Chinese ebike with a Bafang motor. LBS hate them - they would rather sell the higher priced Specialized, etc. People need to look more objectively at the Chinese products - they can be quite good, just don't go too cheap.
@@derekharper6031 Grin Tech isn't going anywhere. They've been doing DIY e-bike motors for almost 20 years. That's not a niche the big volume companies can touch.
The solution is the path that I a lot of us, including you in the past Rob, have done. Build your own bike up using a well chosen frame and fitting a kit motor/electronics. It involves research and planning but can result in a fantastic ebike. My version is a CYC Photon kit on a full suspension frame with a battery I have built but the battery could have been bought instead. This summer the ebike kit was removed and I pedalled a fantastic normal bike on a European holiday with others on normal bikes. Back home the motor was put back on and today I've had an absolute blast on an amazing off road trip. It's an incredibly versatile solution. The technology is moving so fast, which we all want to benefit from, that the problems you describe are inevitable. By going DIY you can replace the kit motor/battery with the latest and greatest at a fraction of the cost of a new proprietary ebike whilst keeping your old frame and parts. Thanks for the post but I believe there is already a way forward to mitigate many of the problems you mention. That solution does not involve just popping into a shop and walking out with a brand new ebike that you can ride on straight away however.
There is even cheaper option. Cyc photon is a good motor but way to expensive. Toseven DM02 is much affordable. Less than 500 USD.
Yes you are correct. I was just trying to make the point that it is possible to reduce the financial burden, upgradability and sustainability issues today and still have an oustanding ebike while the proprietary ebike vendors work towards common standards.@@ataksnajpera
This
You have my support on this. People will stop buying e-bikes and wait for the standards being set after watching your video. The upgradability is a real game changer for e-bike.
Exactly. I was in the market for my first e-bike, but after watching this video, I'm going to keep riding my 1993 Trek MTB and 2017 Fuji road bike.
You're absolutely correct, I had also identified this and decided to build my own ebike. The battery can easily be replaced at any stage in the future.
Is your build on any of the forums we can peep at?
Very well said Rob! Thank you for using your platform to voice these concerns that we all share! If these companies don’t come to an agreement we will end up with a lot of ebikes that will end up being trashed because there is no upgrade or even replacement for none working parts! Have you ever tried to buy an ebike motor when your warranty expires??? It’s impossible!
Well said Rob, it’s a nightmare for consumers and shops alike. I would also add that manufacturer’s should be selling all the internal motor parts including circuit boards separately for a minimum of 15 years after the motor ceases production. Only Yamaha do this as far as I know (but not for 15 years). Imagine having a part fail on your car engine and being told you need to buy a new motor, it’s daylight robber.
Perhaps Yamaha do it because they make motorcycles. Car and motorcycle manufacturers are required to have spare parts available for a number of years- 10 at least. I am waiting a while longer until I get an e-bike. I want something that will last at least 5 years if not more, I still have mountain bikes from 2005-2008, 3 of them. Upgraded many parts and still very usable bikes.
You all should go live in Venezuela!
@@williambrandondavis6897why?
Kudos to Giant for making their new 800wh battery backwards compatible with their older bikes!
Oh will the 800wh fit into my 2019 Trance E+1 that currently has a 500wh battery. After 5 years of use it is still at 94% but it really restricts my riding. My rides are planned around the battery capacity.
Maybe it will. Check it. For bosch they add a plastic hollow piece to small baterries so it fits bigger batteries. I dont know for Giant but check it
Adapters?
Yup. My 2021 Stance came with 500wh, and I jumped on the 800wh. Love it!
Rob.....I totally agree with your take on Cross compatibility! It makes so much sense...maybe 2024 will be the year some manufacture will have the guts to make the leap!
My cheap Chinese rear hub conversion has been faultless.
52V 1500W, giving 1.2kw, up to 45mph and a range between 22 and 75 miles.
Total cost was under £1500, and every part practically has been upgraded very easily, and only ONE part I bought online has been unable to be added.
Granted, it's not as pretty a bike as these new ones, but repairs are ridiculously easy, and the general uniformity of the parts and components means replacing them or finding parts for them is unbelievably easy.
It's more of cruiser than an off roader, given the hard tail frame and absence of rear suspension, but the offensive prices of these new ebikes is prohibitive and NOT in the spirit of ebiking, which began as a cheap easy personal mode of transport..
I love that you made this as I suspected it as such but had no idea of the scope. Brilliant suggestions. I hope this video is seen by the managers and shareholders of all the big and small bike brands. This isn’t a rant - its a call to action.
Ripper video Rob, so true. The other issue is that parts for older bikes can be hard to get. I have two 2017 Levos that will be thrown away when motors / batteries are no longer available which is bad for the environment and the wallet. Upgradable would keep these bikes going.
You have an interesting perspective having so many different brands to ride. I've stuck with Bosch, got a Trek Rail in 2021. I've upgraded everything on the bike and I'll ride it into the ground. I went with Bosch for precisely the reasons you listed, I saw the Shimano motors and knew that they would upgrade soon. So glad I didn't get a Shimano bike. Pinkbike is filled with people asking way to much for their now outdated ebikes. Unfortunately the depreciation on these is going to be heavy. If you bought an $8,000 bike two years ago you honestly will be lucky to get $3500 for it now. Its part of the ebike game, you will loose money on them, but the joy outweighs the loss.
So true, i have also got the rail and upgraded and will run it into the ground. Fantastic bike, but one of the main reasons i brought it was the Bosch system. I knew after the warranty period you could get the parts and repair the motor if it failed. Bosch will supply the parts also.
AMEN BROTHER! This INCOMPATIBILITY, even within the same brand, is a real problem with no chance of standardization in the foreseeable future. We are in the "wild west" stage of e-bike technology.
Rob, it seems like shimano or sram should lead this effort. Bosch and brose are too committed to planned obsolescence. I trust the Japanese will eventually get this and Shimano will lead…Let’s hope so.
Bosch makes it so needlessly difficult to repair or replace any part of their motor systems... This kind of anti-repair engineering should be illegal!
Considering how Shimano is trying to kill all backwards and cross compatibility with CUES, I would be surprised if they were more collaborative with their ebikes standards
@@InventorZahran Bosch is still the best when it comes to their ebike systems, their batteries are very good, their motors are very good, their displays are very good, their chargers rarely break and to top it of their warranty is the best in the industry (3 years instead of 2 from the rest).
Anyway, ebike motors are not something you want to take apart as a bike fitter, it's like taking apart a Rohloff gearhub, you'll need a lot of knowlegde and special tools (you'll rarely use). Just send the thing in and get a replacement, let the manufacturer deal with the repair.
@@KapiteinKrentebol Since when has Bosch had a 3 year warranty on e-bike components?
@@itsme1275 I think at least since 2017 when I started working in a bikeshop.
I don't want to come off as a Bosch shill (see my other comment) but when it comes to ebike systems Bosch is the best imo.
Shimano Steps is okay but a replacement motor costs up to a 1000 euro whereas a Bosch motor is half that for instance, batteries are about the same prices.
Completely on point and the reason i went the diy route with a CYC Photon and really could not be happier. For now. Maybe the industry will sort itself out, currently buyers have considerable power. Ebikes are going to cause vast amounts of e-waste.
CYC Photon will be hard too repair on your own.
@ataksnajpera same as any ebike, then. CYC has also recently changed their approach to service and parts which may make it easier than the big brands (who restrict parts availability to customers) for customers to repair
Great video man!! I hope more youtubers put this topic on the table. This level of forced deprecation is killing the planet.
That's why bafang kits are the way to go. I added one to a donor mtb a few years ago. Can be fitted to any bike with a conventional bottom bracket leaving you able to customise bike any way you want.
Brilliant Rob hit the nail on the head ,wouldn’t it be nice to buy an ebb frame and choose you system/ motor etc as we did with steam bikes a few years back choice of every different part so your bike has its own personality 😊
What is eeb? There's ebike or emtb.
Such a great point to raise. Good on you for speaking up
Spot on Rob! I would confidently wager that most cyclists are quite strongly focussed on sustainability, so that is sizeable group. We need to rally behind this message and demand, with our wallets, as that’s how brands are most firmly woken up, that this is the future we want. And, we also want retrofit kits designed and built by brands/manufacturers to mend the damage already done.
If you have a battery powered bike.. Are you truly a cyclist?
@@sahhullyes. Can you suggest a better term in English? I do appreciate that Dutch differentiates between wielrenners and fietsers. But both of those classes would be cyclists in English.
@@DizzyDiddy for me.
A cyclist is the human powering the bike. He is cycling.
Electric bikes are more similar to motor cycles.
The term I use for them cannot be repeated.
The UK cyclists I come across on a daily basis are lawless scum that believe that the highway code and traffic laws don't apply to them.
However they are the loudest voice when the nasty driver hits them, even if they didn't look, jumped the traffic light, cycled the wrong way down a one way street. Or just ride along on the pavement.
@@sahhull there is a huge range of things that falls under the electric bike umbrella and I agree that many of those are more like motorcycles. But bicycles with battery assistance that only work when pedaling and only up to relatively low speeds are definitely still human powered bicycles operated by cyclists. I don't think English is going to develop a distinction between them and people using non-battery assisted bikes.
@@DizzyDiddy at the moment it's more like the wild west.
Electric scooters are illegal to use on the street but as long as you are not a fool the police won't do anything.
The same with fully electric bikes. Unless they draw attention to themselves.
Fantastic video as always Rob, by why not go one step further and offer the brands an opportunity to use this as a platform for collaboration. Even if you get a couple, it's a start.
You do not understand this ? These systems are not compatible because companies don't want it. Then they will lose a lot of money.
@@Dryb1as Yeah, that's true, as soon there would be an open standard, third party companies could kick in and start selling batteries for way lower prices. Currently you need to pay around 500 euro for a 150/250wh range extender from these brands, power stations with the same amount of watt hours are available for 150-200 euro. The small BMS chip in the battery costs probably 2-3 euro in production.... they will never give up these money cows and will work hard, to find reasons, why this will not be possible. It would only be attractive for very small brands, where customers are too scared to buy it, because they aren't sure if they got any spare parts in the future....
With over 400k subscribers, you're a major voice of the EMTB community Rob, and thank for saying would needed to be said. Now, something else to consider. Yes universal fitment and standards, tech and hardware and backwards compatability but also, full serviceability and diagnostics. I feel that, if these changes dont happen, EMTB could very well end as just a fad.
Sure, its big business, for now. But how many consumers took the plug, bought the bike, ride it for 2 years and bam. Broken, and the choice. Either pay outrageous money for an entire motor, or throw the bike away. Buy an analog frame, a REAL nice one for the same money as a motor and swap all parts over. Then swear to never, ever buy another EMTB.
This is a very real situation now that we are years in and EMTB really took off. A situation that IS happening, and could turn the EMTB into a fad. A "remember those bikes with motors and batteries", yeah those things were awesome, but you couldn't fix them.....a slippery slope the MTB business can be. Just look at it now as a whole vs, just 2 years ago...
owning a Bosch system. I found out the hard way you cannot even buy a plug that fits the charging socket. they don't, wont, can't???
It is illegal in some countries not to be able to get spare parts for items to be repaired.. And yet here we are, selling a product as 'green' that is completely disposable...
A great vide Rob. Thanks.
More needs to happen to stop this waste..
Another problem not mentioned is spare parts and repairability when the manufacturer abandons older batteries and motors. Terrible if you have to get a whole new bike because your battery is dead and there's no way to get a new one because compatible batteries aren't being produced anymore.
totally this yea\s
This is the main reason I am sticking with my CYC conversion for the foreseeable future.
Absolutely agree Rob, I bought a Kenevo SL as my first ebike, then new rumours started that there was going to be a new motor. Then the SL 1.2, not available for retro fit even though it has the same mounts. New prices of the old bikes fell through the floor. This knocks on to second hand values. So your left with a bike the manufacturer won’t let you upgrade that’s worth nothing, not even out of warranty. Don’t get me wrong I have loved riding my ebike, but had I known how unreliable they are and how much value a 12 month old bike can lose I would have picked differently.
I am in the exact same boat with a KSL. I’m super frustrated. I love e-bikes and they have their place in mountain biking but I just don’t think I can buy another one with these issues.
I’m in the same situation bought a KSL earlier this year then not long after specialized slashed there prices by almost 50% so I now have a bike that I can’t upgrade the motor on to the latest model since specialized won’t allow it and set to lose substantially on it when I come to sell it.
When ebikes started out, i thought this is a natural consequence of the rapidly evolving tech - things weren't very good yet, so you couldn't expect stuff to stay compatible because it changed so much. Now the tech is quite mature and there is no excuse for incompatible parts any more. It won't get fixed without regulation though, same as the phone chargers
I agree. I can not afford a new emtb. I did buy a 2017 Giant Full E+ 1emtb March 2023. Love this bike. But I tried using Giant's app and it will not sync with my bike. Too old. I'm sure they can do something about this, but I doubt it. A few standards on the electronics of these bikes would be great. Let's hope it happens soon. Tyvm for your time.
This is why I have a BBS02 with an AliExpress battery on a 2008 bike. It's almost all off-the-shelf components and even the motor is surprisingly serviceable.
It only takes one company to set an example... who will it be
Well they're clearly all setting their own example :P
The one that sells the most in the end
@@sonnylatchstringwhat if the best selling bike, is the the middle of the road, kinda heavy, loud, inefficient, but cheap?
If just two of the bigger companies agreed to standardize then they would probably gain more market share and it might get other competitors to join in, or group their technology with another brand, or two. It has to have a commercial benefit for the companies for it to happen.
Right now it’s the Wild West of e bike innovation. If companies are locked into backward compatibility, or frame geometry (bolt patterns) or battery chemistry, then they can’t do anything revolutionary. Technology and innovation will stagnate, or at least move very slowly. It becomes innovation/design by committee, which never works well.
Specialized used a universal charge port and all the other vendors went for eWaste .
Rosenberger ..Google it.
Unfortunately, It will probably be the One Company or Wealthy Investor that buys them ALL out, and Monopolizes the market. (That seems to be the only way to ever make competing companies cooperate)
Great vid and a very important perspective. I think consumer awareness of this needs to improve a lot, and consumer choices as well. I figured this out early on and chose to build my own bike based on the current bottom (regular bike) bracket standards. There are some great motors out there that will fit your bottom bracket, also some advanced ones like that ones put out by Cyc. Rob perhaps you can help more here by bringing the good existing options into view also? Again very important topic and great that you shed some light on it.
A rant worth having, Rob. I agree with you 100%, especially as someone who purchased an eMTB last year for $NZ9000 and it's likely it'll be the last brand new bike I buy and while I love my Focus eMTB to bits, it's likely the only things I'll be upgrading in future will be components that wear out. It would be so much easier to have standardised formats/standards that means people can upgrade a motor if they want to or buy an battery extender. Trouble is, manufacturers want to lock people into one brand ecosystem by creating proprietary systems. Big name PC makers have done it for years and it creates all sorts of problems. Here's hoping your on-point rant will hit home with some of the companies and they'll start being a little more consumer-friendly.
This is exactly why I have waited to buy an e bike. Every time this happens with electrical products. Same with all the different phone chargers. It’s a big con. Thank you for exposing this scam.
Great call Rob. We should call it the environment standard.
Draw a line in the sand by July next year and away we go.
Everyone wins.
This was the case with all the mechanical bike parts you mentioned when they first came out (derailleur hangars, steerer tubes, axles, bottom brackets, etc...). I think in 10-20 years you'll get your wish. It will take one or two brands like Sram and Shimano taking over the industry to make things cross compatible.
Only the absolute polar opposite will ever happen
Uh. 1" steer tubes existed for over 100 years. 10mm axles. the same. We've had standard deraileur hangars for almost 100 years. 9mm QR's for 70. I have no idea what you are talking about. It's only been in the last 15 years or so have they decided to repeatedly change these standards.
All it would take is Giant Specialised and Trek to get there heads together, standardise and everyone will follow suit out of fomo
You had maybe 1 or 2 standards for almost 50 years with a weird standard here and there
Agreed. Mountain bike designs continue to evolve rapidly, especially full suspension which is affecting drive train changes as well. Now we're seeing a possible shift from external derailleur shifting to belt drives and internal gear systems, this I think partially motivated by anticipated ebike needs. It may be a few years get for these designs to be optimized enough to standardize.
I’ve been following the progression of EMTBs for some years now, but this is precisely why I haven’t bought one yet. I am prepared to pay the high purchase price because I understand why they are expensive but I’m not accepting the probability that I’ll be stuck with an unserviceable bike after maybe a couple of years.
You'll likely be waiting forever then... there is nothing to say a current eMTB won't last you for years - it might not have the 'latest' tech, but really who cares? - you'll be out riding... the only thing you might want to consider a few years down the line is the availability of a replacement battery if yours is finally exhausted. If you consider how few people are riding ten year old regular bikes, never mind twenty year old bikes, then it's likely your carbon fibre frame will have cracked long before your motor has failed.
Ive got.plenty experience with motors and beleive me that non e bike carbon framed bike will out last that e bike motor
Dito. I really need an EMTB to get back out on the trails after years of not riding because of an injury. But not being able to purchase spare parts and service the motor myself is such bs.
I have a steel fold up 20x4 bike that has cracked folding hinge @8900km, the elecs still good@@yodapig
@@Venna78 Ditto vs Dito
Never has a better word been said Rob, I have to applaud you regarding this topic. Let’s be clear here, this would surely benefit the ebike industry brands across the board in these testing times. Many of us can afford upgrading bikes every few years, however many can’t including moi………. I’d love to have a bigger battery or at else get an extender battery for my Bosch Gen 4 motor , but alas no chance ! Remember big brands as said, you can’t have your cake and eat it to! I’m a loyal buyer, if I like a brand I’ll stay with them if I know they’ll do they utmost to keep my loyalty……… however, as you rightly mentioned, we need more ! Let’s hope your words will make the brands like “ this guys right, we need to collaborate “……….. keep up the fantastic work your putting out 👏🏽
Good job, Rob. You succinctly and elegantly put out what I wanted to scream out loud in rage. Not sure what power we consumers have to force manufacturers to develop standards across the board.
This is an important talking point. Well done for raising these issues, they really need to be addressed by the manufacturers, sooner rather than later.
A brilliant piece, Rob. Congratulations. 100 per cent of consumers will agree with you. However, I doubt the various manufacturers will -- they have their own drums to beat. Only an international cycle control organisation will be able to bring a sensible order to the e-bike cycling industry and I doubt that it will happen any time soon.
Anyway, we Aussies (I feel sure), are right behind you. Good luck on your crusade.
Same story with power tool batteries. There are third party companies that make converters but they are big and bulky and could maybe damage your expensive batteries if there is no protection from overheating or over discharging
A converter to run different brands of battery will not cause it to over heat ect. Thats the job of the bms inside the battery.
Not the same. A 10 year old tool can work with a brand new battery and vice versa. And all major brands have well established battery systems with huge catalogs tools, new and old.
My question here is for how long we will be able to find spare parts for a specific ebike?
Or ebike manufacturers expect us to buy a new ebike once spare parts are discontinued for the ebike you already own?
How far back do you want to go? - You could say the same about any older bike... There comes a time when any manufacturer is going to stop supporting older products, although at least larger manufacturers (Specialized, Giant, Trek etc) are likely to hold an inventory of spares until they are depleted.
Just had it with my Cargo Bike last spring. After two years and a few weeks the motor seized (around 6500km) and I needed to get it fixed with a bike-shop nearby as I don't get access to the motor. Even they had some issues getting the motor. If shimano plulls the Plug on the production or decides not to supply an exchange motor for whatever reason I am left with the choice of finding a good welder to mangle with it
That is quite a biiiiiiig bonus for Hub-Motors or Conversion kits. Furthermore, I am told it can be a daily ride but need to wait 8 Weeks for a replacement motor?! There is still some progress to be taken, but not on the engineering side alone.
I agree 100%. So pleased you put it out there. Thanks
Very good video, addressing issues where factory support is seriously lacking. I have a 2021 Orbea Rise. The battery is beginning to show signs of age. I can’t seem to get 20 miles of relatively flat terrain, riding.
Someone should come up with a bottom bracket that would take the place of the motor. In my case if I removed the battery and motor, then installed a fake motor/bottom bracket, I’d have a slightly heavy “analog” MTB.
Good call - thank you! We definitely need better component compatibility and interoperability here! That being said, I am slightly sceptical regarding the idea of one charger for all ebikes. Some bikes run on 36 V, while others have a 48 V system, and then there is 52 V and maybe even further voltages... While it is possible in principle to develop one charger that could work for a range of battery voltages, this would then become a somewhat expensive charger, and particularly for bikes with lower battery voltage this would be adding cost noticeably. However, it would still be good to standardise charging connectors (and introduce voltage compatibility protection in some way, to ensure that it is impossible to connect or use a charger for a different voltage than that of the battery...).
I'm sure he means to have a universal connectors. I couldn't find a charger for mine so I had to just find a charger rated for 48v 2amp output and just soldered the connector from the old charger and its still going strong even a year after. Oddly enough the original charger only lasted 6 months.
you missed the point completely 180. he meant a connection standard. not one charger for all
@@jrok96 - he literally says: "... let's have one particular charger that can work across all the different bikes!" (6:20) You may be right that he meant the connector, but he does talk about the "charger". And yes, I do appreciate that the word "charger" is sometimes used somewhat loosely.
As I wrote, this would be technically possible, but not necessarily sensible.
Holy smokes, Rob, you're right. I didn't even think about my new Trek Fuel EXe being 'outdated' like my smartphone. I was hoping and kinda expecting, when TQ comes out with a 65nm '2.0' version, I might be able to upgrade it. Crap.
Excellent point, glad you made it!! Besides the money aspect for riders, in this day and age companies building something to go enjoy the outdoors should also consider hugely to be environmentally tuned in. This hole thing as it stands is certainly not ... :(
They did exactly this in the automotive industry making diagnostic ports all compatible by law. OBD2
Great video and points about this. I bought a specialized kenevo since I figure they’ve sold so many (same motor and battery as Levos) and are a big company so fingers crossed I can get needed parts well into the future. As far as upgrading it, I’ll just have to be happy if I can get replacement parts in the future.
Exactly - be happy with the bike you own now. And as you surmise, a larger brand like Specialized is more likely to be in a position to offer parts support for older models for as long as they can.
Yep - that’s why I bought a Levo as well. I’d be more likely to try a small brand if it was compatible with at least one of the big brands.
As a kid in the 50s we all built our own bikes around second hand frames. We even learned how to build a wheel from a hub, rim and spokes. No shortage of spares and we upgraded as we could afford. Not these days. You have given a good reason not to buy an e-bike.
Just put a mid drive motor like cyc photon on any frame.you want and plug any open standard battery and universal charger. I can even remove the motor in 15min and have my muscular enduro back.
I'm glad you're talking about this. I doubt this will get fixed unless someone like the EU steps in
"Govern me harder daddy"
Pathetic numpty.
So make it so know one can make new ideas and force everyone to use one model. That wont discourage innovation or competition!
@@williambrandondavis6897 what innovation is there to be had?? motor technology hasn't changed much in the past 20 yrs, there's only a few sensible placements for batteries, its all just an arms race of stupidity designed to edge each other out of the market. The EU and any other government should absolutely step in to regulate both compatibility, and the quality of these insanely flammable batteries.
Learning soldering and having some slight fabrication skills which includes finding good straps or alternative mounting options will solve most of your battery/charging issues. We put XT60s on all of our chargers and batteries so everything is compatible plug and play situations. Some times you have to put in a little extra work with e bikes unfortunately. Would not recommend DIY E bikes to someone with no mechanical skills.
Well said! I’d like to add that bike manufacturers aren’t locking anybody into their products when you can’t upgrade from say the ep8 to ep801 or get the newer SL engine.
Great point Rob! Unfortunately or fortunately that's why I haven't jumped into the eBike game yet because there's always massive iterations before they start to get things standard along withholding a captivated audience as a consumer so that we buy only their stuff and not have a universal option. I'm hoping some company will do the ultimate design of making your regular bike and e-bike without it being to at risk of getting smashed. I know there's some ideas out there. That way you can get a motor and a battery that will be universal for all the bikes and all the battery/motor companies like Bosch will have to make a universal to compete
This is pretty much why I didn't get one so far.
And I'm too lazy to just modify bike myself, but basically for long life I would need to do it this way.
Also thing is not so much about the competition as about you going like a good doggie back to company every time something is not ok, because you cannot fix it yourself I bet battery packs will have some quirk preventing you from replacing old cells with new ones in it, and other shenanigans for other parts as well.
In 1988 the Society of Automotive Engineers came out with ideas and recommendations for OBD-II ports. A universal diagnostic port with standardized codes and programming. It also allows manufacturers to have their own programs and codes to suit their needs. It's on every consumer car and truck from 1996 onward. California mandated it's use and drove that change. We probably need a central engineering society for the bike industry to be able to drive any sort of meaningful change in this, otherwise people will design what's best for their company in their own little silos. Shimano seems to be the best about system integration, that's probably why we see so many bikes with Shimano systems in general.
The IEEE and the ISO can draft out these spec's but you need regulators & agreement in all countries to enforce it.
Great video and rant! I use an ebike for commuting and on the weekends, I use an analog mountain bike for adventure. Yes, it takes me longer to charge up the hill; get passed by other eMTBers & the occasional eMoto bike; but I like the simplicity of my setup to release much needed stress and at the same time, also the endorphins. Get out there and just enjoy the ride.
I refuse to buy anything that will be obsolete possibly under a year. Thanks for the information.
I think it is reasonable to expect that vendors provide an upgrade path for form-factor compatible parts. I am resolved that my ep8/steps bike will not have a future (nor do I plan on buying Shimano anything ever again) but am still hopefull that Spec will do the right thing when it comes time to replace the motor in my KSL. Vote with your $$.
Good insights. I'm of the belief that 2024 is going to be disastrous for MANY manufactures across ALL sectors, not just bikes. Maybe some consolidation and compatibility will come out of the tough times coming...
🥳 I do agree 💯 %! Save the planet and help us all to make an easier bike life! Thank you Rob for bringing this out to bike world 🙌🏼
This is a great video. Thank you so much you change my mind about buying an E Bike
USB charger should work on these batteries. USB is already at 240 Watts, and increasing.
Cars already have the standard data interface port for On Board Diagnostics - OBD Port.
We could have a Proprietary Tax which is applied when an industry doesn't create a standard, or they create products that don't use an existing standard. Genuine advances would be worth the initial tax cost and could apply for the exemption and refund.
Great observation. I'm just starting my journey to purchase an e-mtb. Now I'm going to consider waiting a couple of years. 10k is way too much to be obsolete in 6 months.
If just two of the bigger companies agreed to standardize then they would probably gain more market share and it might get other competitors to join in, or group their technology with another brand, or two. It has to have a commercial benefit for the companies for it to happen.
Right now it’s the Wild West of e bike innovation. If companies are locked into backward compatibility, or frame geometry (bolt patterns) or battery chemistry, then they can’t do anything revolutionary. Technology and innovation will stagnate, or at least move very slowly. It becomes innovation/design by committee, which never works well.
100% agreement. I’m a simple casual ebiker. My old reliable Rad e-bike is completely upgradable. It’s certainly not a high tech slim modern bike. But it gets me all over town as a daily rider.
and that is why I will be building my own Ebike from scratch!
Well said that man, everything you said!!!!
So damaging to the environment too because soon those huge lithium batteries are going to be nothing but useless bricks being dumped
While agree that this is incredibly annoying, it is also the problem of this being a relatively young market. Forcing everyone to use the same standard will be great for a few years, until we find that the standard is subpar. Standardization is great for mature fields where everyone is basically producing the same thing (e.g. phone chargers) and there isn't much room for innovation, but forcing standardization too early could leave us with an inferior result that then becomes difficult to change (e.g. what if we forced everyone to use micro-USB 10 years ago?).
I think the best place to start encouraging standardization would be in ebike charging ports, as there probably isn't much meaningful difference between the current ports. Standardizing the size of batteries or motors would be more problematic, as there is a lot more innovation that could happen in bike geometry, such as smaller batteries, different layouts, or including the battery as a stressed member of the frame.
Agreed - charging ports is the place to start, then slimming down the range of battery form factors by 90%, then motor mounts.
Ebikes have been around long enough and we are in an environmental crisis. Time for regulatory action. And who cares about new features - ebikes are easily good enough already - what we need is sustainable standards and ensuring buyer confidence
Thanks Rob! It’s too true! At the moment, the only slightly more sustainable solution is conversion kits but it would be such a step forward to see cross compatibility with integrated systems.
Glad you covered this! I'm new to the ebike market but have worked in mobile and computers, which have all had their issues with proprietary components and thus high costs. It typically takes economic pressure and sometimes regulation to transition the market from expensive/proprietary to modular/open architectures. This _could_ happen now that bike demand has slowed -- people just aren't running out to buy a $10K ebike that depreciates like a sled. The bike makers in theory should be motivated to adopt swappable components that reduce their costs, though it comes down to how much economic pressure they have to reduce prices. Worth watching out for attempts at regulatory capture by the motor makers via UL requirements (e.g. - introduce standards that make it easier to maintain consumer lock-in to proprietary systems). Time for an open architecture standard for ebikes that is modular, perhaps?
Great post. Computers, Phones, Tesla’s (charging) have followed the same path. BUT, I also remember my Marzocchi shock on my bike was non-standard for repair so even the analog world suffers from this. One extra note: Scott Bikes just took on the TQ motor (like Trek). This is a good thing - the more different manufacturers that take on this means that standards are being set.
You hit the nail on the head. I bought an e-bike 3 years ago and had so many issues with it, that I ended up selling it due to motor problems that Specialized would not warranty. There are so many problems with reliability of e-bikes across the board that leaves buyers with an expensive system that looses so much value. Same non-sense with electric car charging standards, first CHAdemo, then CCS then NACS. Chademo is failing badly and next will be CCS with those massive charging cables and it seems that NACS (Tesla) will be the standard moving forward. This should have been done 10 years ago.
DIY ebikes for the win anyday. You choose your motor and battery however you want. And if you dont know how to build one, ask someone who does.
bro you make the best emtb content i hope you are planning to give us this year a best emtb award (at least from tge ones you already tested)
Unfortunately will will need regulation about standards and repairability..you are completely right!
The E-waste being produced is also massive!!!!
This is why we convert our own on the Endless Sphere forum!
I built my own one and only eBike seven years ago.
It's a Bafang BBSHD middrive kit mounted on a hardtail MTB. Nothing is proprietary apart from the Controller firmware which apparently has since been hacked. I bought a 14S (so called 52V) 20Ah battery from from another vendor where I could even specify what connectors it should have.
I since tuned it up to 18S 45A 3kW by various modifications. All mechanical and electrical parts can be replaced by spare parts by myself (should I ever break something). The communication protocol is still in use today so I can fit whichever display I would want.
Living in EU, my eBike is not registered because it's above 250W, though I've met guy who managed to get his insured against collision.
I don't think I'd ever buy anything proprietary like Bosch for the same reasons mentioned in the video.
Thanks so much for saying this. This has always really, really bothered me over the course of owning 3-4 ebikes over a decade. TBH I don't care about being able to access new features, I just want to be able to get replacement parts a few years down the track, whether the vendor still exists or not.. And not have to hunt them down from some far corner of the globe. As a utility rider, I've generally avoided these problems by converting or buying bikes using cheap Asian components - which genreally are far more universal than euro parts. I recently weakened when I got a good deal on a German Karlkoff, but even within a year trying to find parts for it is a total pain.
Yes this really is the dirty little secret about ebike's but nobody talks about. Which has always surprise me, as much as I think of ebike's is really one of the most game changing technologies in the middle of our climate crisis, far more so than EVs.
There's much talk about the problems of recycling batteries, but I believe the waste with nonreplaceable parts may well be worse still. Particularly given this is a mostly European problem, it would be great if the EU could step in here the same way that they are with Apple and insisting on standardisation for USB connectors. AND SOON.
Thanks again, please don't give up on this and do encourage others to be raising this issue.
Well done! One of the most important videos you ever made! We need this ASAP!
This is absolutely brilliant! I don't even have an ebike, but this popped up on my feed and I couldn't agree more with everything you said. It would be great to get this discussed in parliament. Although with this utterly useless government, I doubt anyone will care. Worth a try!