@@sassenspeyghel4155 I started the books in 2020 specifically with the thought that the next book couldn’t be that far off since it had been so long….here I am 4 years later 😔
@@melissaisloud7404 this has to be the smoothest brain of the bunch. I love how willing some people are to come to the defense of someone that has repeatedly shown they do not care about any of their fans. Multiple reference books, a handful of novellas, 3 shows that he helped write or produce, Elden Ring, short story collections, and as many as 7 upcoming novellas and another volume to Fire and Blood. All this in the time since he released anything from his main series. This from the man that put out the first 5 books and as many novellas and other nonsense in 15 years. Not that I particularily care anymore. Elden Ring was literally his best work. Its blatantly obvious he prefer writing fictional histories and mythologies than he does spending time in those worlds. It is hilarious that people like you, with zero expectations, feel the need to attack people for holding someone accountable.
@@jonny-b4954 but given how that worked out for the show he really needs a good writer who can imitate his style the best. I think one of the reasons he can't finish the books is that he has the ending for the main characters but he can't write the way to get them there. I think the ending in the books will be similar in general to the ending of the show, but how it got to that point will be vastly different.
@@jonny-b4954 George would never let that happen. He'd have his notes burned and his records deleted before he let someone else finish his books for him. He is a selfish man.
Battle of Ice -> the strategic battle: Stannis proves that he's the strategic mastermind ("night lamp") Battle of Fire -> the massive battle: several massive armies, dragons, fighting on land, sea & in the air Battle of Blood -> the magic battle: blood magic to awaken monsters from the deep 🦑🐙🦑 Battle of Steel -> the significant battle: who rules Westeros in the near future - this event will initiate fAegon's rise & Cersai's fall (even if the actual battle won't happen) Damn there's something for everyone!!!😁
Yes, and those halves do not make up a whole book. Both are missing half of the story. The first half of the story of characters A-M is in AFFC and, the first half of characters N-Z in ADWD, ruffly.
That’s exactly what they are. They are the same book but it was too long so George split it in two one with one set of characters and the other with another set of characters
@@orlandorolon7338 True. I understand his need, the story grew, but it has its downsides. Particulary since it has taken such a looooooong time for Winds to be written. Something GRRM probably didnt expect
@@MissyAmy88 go watch the Preston Jacobs video on why Winds is taking so long. Basicaly, he didn't wrote anything for almost 10 years up untill the first c19 lockdown.
You can’t put in “refreshers” I really don’t think Martin would do that. One day, if the series is finished, people will read these books consecutively. It would just be filler to do a recap
Each character’s first chapter always has a recap of important points. This is the case all through the series. It’s not aimed at the hardcore fans but rather the casual fan who hasn’t picked the series up since the previous book came out. Which does tend to be quite a while unfortunately.
Well of course you can't just do "LAST TIME ON GAME OF THRONES Z!!", but this is literally _the main purpose_ of characters' introductory chapters in sequels.
Yeah they're pretty mild recaps if you're coming back after a long time, but having recently binged most of the books you'll get a few early POVs with at least some recap; particularly for when we're coming back to particular characters. Jon and Dany have the most recap-y feeling first chapters, partly because they're the main perspectives for their given areas of the world. As far as Winds recaps are concerned, it is in an interesting position. A lot of characters are at war, but there's a few that can handle the burden of a plot recap, I think. Sam, Melisandre, Cersei, Jaime/Brienne, and Areo Hotah are all in decent positions to have a sort of 'last we left off' mindset, and you can probably include Asha in that as she's probably not directly fighting. Really the problem area is the Battle of Fire, where we have three different characters looking in on it who are directly involved in the combat, and who already have sample chapters so we know we're hearing from them.
On these 4 battles it always strikes me how 3 out of them have Greyjoys as active participants. Overall as aSoIaF goes on, feels like Greyjoys (of all families) characters' agency and world impact grows way past of any other families. For comparison: not a single Stark at this point has the freedom to change their environment.
Your last point about the Starks is actually something that really bugs me about the books. I love the characters but is really difficult to imagine how they're going to play any role in the story, their narratives are very self-contained.
I like the theory that the "Battle" of Steel isn't going to happen, but be subverted somehow and "won by guile". So if that was going to be in Dance you'd still want another traditional battle to serve as a climax to the action. But assuming that is the case, putting it there probably works better than taking a long hiatus and then introducing a non-battle that subverts expectations readers have forgotten they'd ever had. Battle of Fire would also work better in Dance; Dany has seemingly already mentally checked out from Meereen so I suspect her forces will lose the city and the battle will only serve to bring all her wannabe courtiers together before they go looking for their queen and head back west. Have that loss be the anticlimax to Dance, paired with a similarly anticlimactic victory for Aegon in Westeros. The Battle of Blood would be a good opening to the action in Winds, a huge mythical new threat that comes out of nowhere (or would, if we hadn't been reading sample chapters and theorising about it for a decade) and massively changes the stakes. Then we get the Battle of Ice to cleanse our palate with a nice surprise victory for the Good Guys. This one, too, benefits from the gap. It's so pivotal, the characters waiting for it are left on an interesting cliffhanger, and the Manderlys and Freys coming to blows and then sallying out to battle already serve as a minor climax to the built-up tension in Winterfell.
Agreed on all counts apart from Daenerys losing Meereen. I simply see no way Yunkai can win. Even if the Volantene Fleet destroy the Iron Fleet, Daenerys is torching Yunkai's army and city as soon as she returns (even if she wants to go west).
hi quinn, i have to say that it's been great watching you and your channel progress in quality. given that the ASOIAF fandom has been around for so long, it's easy to repeat the same discussions and talking points over and over, but i feel like you always bring a fresh perspective with every video. thanks for all your hard work!
Thinking of the Pink Letter, Roose’s leaches, Stannis and King Theon give the Battle of Ice my most anticipated battle, although I really hope Selmy shines!
I love dance, the build up is insanely good and it has a SUBSTANTIAL amount of world building, it’s the book that truly separates the book from the show, so much of it is about army sizes and food stock piles and fleet sizes, it gives the series so much scope, it’s probably my favorite. #StannisTheMannis
Never really thought about this. They all seem like one story to me, therefore, i'm not looking for a 'conventional" novel structure. Sure , in a standalone novel, you have your rising, falling action etc. In this series, you get action and quiet moments that seem to follow the story more than a typical novel structure. For example, we get Blackwater battle in the 2nd half of Clash but there's quite a lot of follow up action before the end. In the ASOS paperback, there are over 400 pages following the climatic RW chapters. The Relief of the NW by Stannis is arguably the ending of the book but leaves us with plenty of questions regarding the fallout of Stannis suddenly jamming things up with the Watch. As such, I don't view the narrative structure of ADWD as too different from any other 'ending' we've had in the series. Some threads get resolved, most end with more questions than answers and we generally get an ever so slight moment of hope or peril to guide the reader into the next book. The only issue is there is such a gap between now and TWOW coming out! If TWOW came out in 2014, I doubt anyone would say this
I think Steel should have been in adwd as well, cause then you would have plot pay off and you would go into twow with more momentum of the Faegon cause. It would pose a bigger threat Snow should be in twow I think, cause of the required set-up and the pink letter mystery, which would be totally ruined if we knew it was all a lie.
The biggest reason why all of those things were cut off is because Martin plans on Winds being the book when the story itself climaxes, and Dream is the closing, so Dream will be very anticlimactic as a consequence because it is a singular story. Martin has gone on record discussing this. "Winter is when things die."
This is exactly why I've come to quite enjoy quentins story over the years, has an adventure develops as a character dares to be great but ultimately fails and his story wraps up a nice arc with a definite end
I think it would have been really nice to end Dance with the battles of Ice and Fire going back and forth between viewpoints there, and then having a start for Winds with Steel and Blood, balances it out a bit and gives for a climatic ending for Dance and a jumpstart for Winds
I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of these battles turned out to be nothing - like a quick victory or non-event. I know that's disappointing, but all of these in one novel is kind of ridiculous.
See I have a worry that in a rush to wrap these things up George will have to do something similar to what the show did. Rapidly cut character and content as a means to get it more focused and to an end. Especially with Danny in the East. A sort of Sept of Baelor / Cersei event that takes out a bunch of characters in one quick stroke. And obviously that is not George’s way. So I’m a bit worried that the first half of Winds will just be filled with quick deaths and lots of quick endings for storylines that obviously are a bit bloated and would take an entire book itself to untangle.
The thing is, the show apparently based much of its post-book-based events on what GRRM told D&D what would generally happen in his books. So there’s still a big possibility that the sept of baelor explosion still happens, or something like it that takes out a bunch of characters within a short span of time.
I really think AFFC should have ended with the conclusions of its characters that we saw in ADWD (For example Cersei would have had her walk of shame in AFFC, Jamie would’ve gone off with Brienne, maybe even include all the Greyjoy and Dorne chapters up to TWOW as well) which would then have left more room for the battle of fire at the end of ADWD. It would also just make things less complicated when rationalising the decision to split ADWD into two novels as they would wholeheartedly be two books that focus on the different characters in different locations at relatively the same time. This would also make both novels feel more whole as we’d see the conclusions of respective characters’ arcs in the same novel that they were established in - not to mention that the battle of fire just felt like the natural conclusion to ADWD (keep the epilogue though because it would be cool to check back in with the AFFC characters at the end of this big act that is AFFC and ADWD, and it would remind readers that AFFC and ADWD have caught up with each other and that the story is now continuing chronologically. I reckon this also would’ve made TWOW easier to write.
I finished ADWD last week and that was my biggest issue too. I loved all the rest of the book, but the end doesn't "ending" was very disappointing for me. After all the journey we read of AFFC and ADWD I was expecting a bigger climax for the end.
If George wants to avoid writing recaps as POV chapters, he could open Winds with a Fire & Blood style Maester excerpt, an in-universe text explaining the War of the Five Kings (thus far) and the events of Essos. Then he could segue into the POVs. When I read the books for the first time, the family trees in the back of the books always served as enough recapping for me anyway.
George’s said he’s struggled because he isn’t releasing volumes of an already completed series (like Book of the New Sun was fully written and then released in volumes each year) Dance suffers big time because Winds wasn’t finished. Makes me think there might be hope that he’s working through Dream of Spring before releasing Winds so he doesn’t write himself into anymore corners with only 1 book to get out
I just love imaging in my minds eye Victarion and his Greyjoy fleet sailing into Slavers bay to see the conflict brewing, but with his scarred hand, and not knowing the full context of the battle, decides to wage sea warfare on the Enemies.
I can't see all 4 battles being put to page, it'll make things feel overstuffed with similar sorts of chapters. It sounds like the battles of ice and of fire are supposed to be put to the page, and both of them should have been at the end of dance. As for the battles of blood and steel, I think they'll be off page. Both those battles seem to be the starts of bigger potential conflicts and it would be better to build suspense to have them off page and have other characters start hearing about them in viewpoint chapters, particularly with the battle of blood where the rumours and potential misinformation from the battle that could occur could make Euron's threat that much more terrifying.
I always think back on him saying there’s an important character he regrets killing off. Going into a dream of spring I highly doubt he wants to make a similar mistake and once he releases winds there’s no going back. The longer he waits to release winds the more freedom he has to work on a dream of spring. I don’t think he’ll release winds until a dream of spring is done, and he doesn’t want to admit they winds is finished because people will pressure him to release it
I think AFFC and Dance of dragons share the same flaws, it created more plotlines that should have. Or at least, they should have ended in AFFC or in Dance of dragons to allow Winds and ADOS another plotlines to close the chronicals, like Dany in Westeros after finishing Battle of Fire, the north after the Battle of ice, Greyjoys, the Others finally reaching the Wall and being a "known public" threat to Westeros. I love George endless creativity in expanding the world each single chapter and book, but this as well slows him in writing and in finishing each volume.
The battles I’m most eager to read about are first Fire and then Ice. Steel doesn’t really seem to be so interesting to me, and Blood is a wildcard, literally anything could happen there!
I feel once we finally get winds my opinion on Dance will be higher. I like the book, but it’s definitely like a bottom 2 in the series for me at the moment and it basically leaving us on like a 13 year cliffhanger definitely doesn’t help. Other than that I just have trouble with it’s consistency. Like some of my favorite chapters and plotlines in the entire series are in dance, but at the same time some of my least favorite chapters in the entire series are in dance lol
I has always been my favorite book of the series, arguably tied with Storm, but I am just a sucker for Dany, Jon, Davos and Tyrion chapters, aswell as the Reek story, and the Northern Madness beginning, it was always great.
It feels like ASOIAF ilwas set up to be two trilogies. The firat half climaxing with storm, and feast and dance acting as one book seting up the second half of the series.
We need 3 books at minimum, probably 4. Dude had in mind a trilogy, A game of thrones, a dance with dragons (faegon) and winds of winter. WE ARE STILL IN A GAME OF THRONES, Daenerys has yet to cross the ocean
I think the Battle of Ice should have happened (or at least started) at the end of Dance. The fact that we don't see Stannis' death pretty much guarantees he isn't - if we'd seen the battle at least start, then the Pink Letter might be more believable. Can't kill off a main(ish) character completely offscreen!
Fully agreed with the battle of Fire, that should've been the conclusion to Dance...an explosive sendoff and an important knot untied before Dany eventually comes back
‘ADWD has been rising in my estimations recently, because for the last 13 odd years I’ve had to keep reading it for lack of answers so I know it better now’ Aha I play, sort of, I’m with you though
ADWD gets overloaded with POVs in the second half when the viewpoints from Feast pop up again, and this made the storyline somewhat incoherent. For example, Cersei's walk of atonement -- why was this not in AFFC? Would it not have been a much more natural ending to her arc in that book? It feels like poor planning on Martin's part and IMO is a bigger problem with ADWD.
We could’ve had a conclusion if George hadn’t included a bunch of filler storylines. It’s well written filler but it’s still filler that hampered a proper conclusion to Dance. George needs to return to the writing pace he had in Storm.
am I the only one who never read the sample chapters winds of winter to save them for release ? I feel like I do not know half this stuff with it being right on the edge of Dance
I gotta disagree with you on your wanting fire to be in dance. I just feel like the reveal of the dragonbinding horn is tied in with euron and the battle of blood and having only one of those in dance would be a bit too big of a reveal
Here's what I think Prologue: Barristan Selmy The Forsaken Chapters 1 and 2: Tyrion, then Daenerys (The Battle of Fire) Move away for a bit (Jaime?) More foreshadowing for the Battle of Steel and the Battle of Ice The Battles of Steel and Ice, swapping between them every one or two chapters Foreshadow the Others invasion Davos in Skagos Foreshadow the Battle of Blood (Aeron's still alive) Cersei dies Arianne marries fAegon Jon (Warged as Ghost) has his singular chapter where he kills Theon to avenge Bran/Rickon Davos returns from Skagos Battle of Blood (Sam injures Euron with a bowshot but gets captured, Aeron's still alive) Stannis takes Winterfell (Ramsay dies) Willas Tyrell!? Victarion leads naval assault against Euron Others invasion begins Euron escapes Daenerys/Victarion's fleet, but Sam and Aeron escape Sam returns to the Wall after the Others destroy it Howland Reed appears Victarion and Damphair reunite Others invasion continues to Winterfell Damphair has a vision about Valyria (Euron's a liar) Eddard Stark chapter (In the afterlife - flashbacks about Robert's Rebellion to foreshadow Jon stuff) Jon gets revived Damphair and Victarion go to Valyria Epilogue: Stannis (Slain by Others)
Whoops I forgot Bran... and Sansa... and Arya. I guess Bran sees a bunch of Others in his five or six chapters (Foreshadowing), Arya does nothing relevant in her one chapter, and Sansa gets Winterfell from Stannis in her three or four chapters. Or something like that.
@@QuinnTheGM The Blackwater is definetely a climax battle (something that as you point out a ADWD lacks) but unlike all the other books, even book 5 to an extent, i feel like you can tell what a POV character will do in the next book by reading the final chapter in aCoK, and i feel the Blackwater to characters like Tyrions and Davos are more cliffhanger s and fakeouts unlike end chapters in other books. Idk if anything i said there made sense but i hope it does. Didnt want to write a 20 page essay with direct examples 😅
It's a big assumption that all 4 of these are happening Fire and Ice, sure Last we heard Aegon had Storm's End and lord knows what Euron is really up to
I have never met a fan who unironically loved AFfC. Brienne’s chapters are just so mind-numbingly dull. What does she even accomplish? Arianne’s story is going nowhere fast. Just more characters without any point to them. A failed coup, a maimed child and some whining in confinement. We watch Sam observe Aemon slowly die. What does his journey accomplish? One POV chapter was needed. He went from the wall to Oldtown. He fucked Gilly. He met Marwyn. Heroes are supposed to do IMPORTANT things. Or else why write about them?
first of all.... AFFC's, and ADWD's were suppose to be one book, and GRRM was made to split it. Secondly, i agree that there's very little character/plot devlopment in either of these books, with both lacking any kind of payoff.
Martin will probably publish the next book two years from now and he won’t finish the last one. Nor any of the ancillary novels. I’m surprised that fans still believe that he’ll finish the series.
Hemingway used to write in the morning and stop when he got to something that was easy to continue the next day. That's what's so disconcerting about how long it's been for George: He has 4 battles he set up over the course of 2 books. It's action set pieces that should be easier to set up and as he writes it, the outcomes should organically lead into logical places. It's not like he ended ADWD and Feast with no places to go. He ended it in the middle of new action that should have been easy to pick back up from.
@@MugenHeadNinja He has other priorities in his life. Finishing these is not even in his top ten is my point. It was easy to pick back up, except it's not the focus of his life anymore and it's the type of series where it has to be.
In my ignorant opinion, I feel like some characters have complete arcs, but the core plot doesn't. Theon and Dany have complete arcs, but we don't get the climax of the plots in the North and in Meereem. In my opinion, some chapters should belong to the 4th book. And others have half the development.
George feels like he has written himself into corners in aFfC and aDwD, and he wishes he could change things. That is why he isn't going to release WoW until he has finished the entire series. He is finishing the final book now and will release the books one year apart. In fact he is finishing TWO books after Winds. How is that for unjustified wishful thinking?! How else can you explain how long WoW has taken? :)
I don't understand why you'd ask for recap chapters. That just means that we lose more room in WOW from stuff we want, to stuff we don't. Anyone who has forgotten how it has all gone can go reread ADWD.
I don't think saying Martin has been writing Winds of Winter for 13 years is accurate, since I believe he only spent a fraction of this time period actually writing.
There's a great video by Magne Mirare that critiques Martin has having essentially fallen into post-modernity, and made the series unfinishable. Highly recommended
It was definitely out of place, but it had such sensual and erotic prose. It was some of GRRM's best work. We also learn a lot about how Quentyn's manhood looks, and I think that will be important for Winds.
Well it is established early on that Moon Boy sleeps around and has a degree of infamy about this habit. He seems to have something of an addiction to it even.
I've been saying for years that george doesn't have 2 books he needs to finish but 3. A dance with dragons is technically incomplete since he pushed back many of the fights to winds Even the sample chapters could be non canon since George has been rewriting a lot
3 at minimum, probably 4. Dude had in mind a trilogy, q game of thrones, a dance with dragons (faegon) and winds of winter. WE ARE STILL IN A GAME OF THRONES, Daenerys has yet to cross the ocean
So many conflicts are going to require resolution in Winds that it almost has to be cover to cover death and battles. Funny that it mirrors the shows season structure that way, the penultimate episode being the battle episode.
The reason: George created too much plotlines in AFFC and Dance that is slowing and making him confused, probably. Like i bet he has a excel or any type of map of what he needs to finish, and yeah....two books of 900-1000 pages arent enough for that. So he needs to end abruptly or surprise the audience expectation of certain battles or character arcs
It's worth noting that the entire War of Five Kings happened & we got one battle actually on the page. In the whole five books we've only had two, fully on-page battles: the Blackwater & Castle Black. George's preference is clearly to build up to a battle then skip to the end & recount specific incidents after the fact. I point this out because I think that two of the four battles discussed in this video will largely follow that format. Yes, we know that the Battle of Fire & the Battle of Ice will be on the page, but I think it likely that the other two (Blood & Steel) will not be fully on the page. Indeed from the Arianne sample chapters it seems that Aegon may already have taken Storm's End & as for the Battle of Blood, our PoV for that is Aeron & he is... not exactly the most reliable of narrators just now.
You’re forgetting the one from Game from Tyrion’s perspective. But yes, you’re overall correct-we didn’t see either of Robb’s victories before Riverrun let alone in the Westerlands; we didn’t see Bolton selling out Glover at Duskendale, nor Tywin’s relief of King’s Landing, Dany’s victory over the Yunkai happens off-screen during a chapter, the taking of Mereen between chapters…I feel like I’m forgetting one.
@@warlordofbritannia Yeah that's my bad, I mixed up book & show regarding Tyrion. Been a while since I read that chapter. It's only about a quarter of the chapter though, right ? Barely even longer than the skirmish at LF brothel or Brienne vs the 7 bandits. Blackwater & Castle Black are the only battles that span multiple chapters/PoVs. Is the one your forgetting maybe the battle at the Fist of the First Men ? I seem to remember that being mostly told in flashbacks.
Never thought about this but I think you are very right. I do think battle of blood will be more indirect pov of what happens with what you said plus and or sam trying to just survive and not know exactly what is going on or even happen.
@@Fe22234Also considering George's tendency to keep magic mysterious, and the high possibility that Euron will do something magical at Oldtown, we may only hear second hand about what 'may' have gone down there after the fact
Honestly couldn't care less about the Battle of Steel. Storm's End is a key fortress, but it's also not defended by anyone relevant and a major siege would require massive effort to portray well and doesn't serve any particular narrative purpose - Griff is already in Westeros with his army.
Yeah it's more about the aftermath of what happens if he takes it so I would be good with it being skipped and maybe recounted over in minor detail in a John con chapter
I personally anticipate the battle of blood the most. It's the one with the most wildcards and the one we are the least certain how It's gonna play out. I also love the southern Reach as the setting
To save GRRM from himself, I think there is no need to depict the battle of Steel at all. Just tell me they took it, give me a few sentences and move on. We ain't got time for this! In the same vein I'd say this is not a normal book series, so no recap needed.
The worst part? I’m pretty sure two or three more chapters would have given us a proper climax - Theon I from TWOW and then an Asha battle chapter, and then another “battle” chapter that immediately precedes the Pink Letter chapter. That last chapter is where they Trojan horse Winterfell after Stannis fakes his defeat, and we see Ramsay send off a letter before the Boltons inside are massacred. In some respects, this could have been the first chapter of TWOW, with the Asha battle chapter ending in a way implying Stannis lost (the Manderlys charging in), and then Asha’s first TWOW opens with her as a prisoner of Freys and Manderlys (actually Stannis’s men, but written in a way we don’t realize it was a Trojan horse until the massacre begins). The battle in the ice is all we needed; Meereen would take far mote chapters since I think Daenerys might be part of it, and her ending is nowhere near it (I could be wrong, but…). I do love Dany’s last chapter in ADWD. Like there’s at least 5 or 6 chapters in it, no way it could have fit. Your battle of blood thoughts were exactly on point; it didn’t belong in ADWD with The Forsaken in TWOW. Battle of steel makes sense too because GRRM didn’t plan to have the attack on Storm’s End (an attack by guile, tricking the garrison to let them in) be on-page at all; admittedly, it might have been cool to see in ADWD.
Highly agree. Getting the Pink Letter chapter without seeing any of the Battle of Ice made it a little too obvious that it was fake and/or contained incorrect information. If we had seen the beginning of the battle and it looked like Stannis was doomed, then got the Pink Letter, I might actually think Stannis died. As you said, Asha's chapter could include the Freys and Manderlys approaching the fishing village from all sides, the Freys on the side with the frozen lake, and the Manderlys on the other (since Crowfood Umber informed them of the plan). Asha could see them slaughtering their highly trained men, killing most of the Northern hill clans and Stannis's best knights, then see Big Walder approach her with Crowfood's head on a pike and surround her with a couple dozen Frey soldiers. Then we see the Pink Letter chapter. In the beginning of Winds, we then see how the battle actually turned out. And yes, the Battle of Fire will be way too big to fit into a few chapters. We'll probably get two or more chapters from each of Tyrion, Barristan, Victarion, and maybe one from Dany (and maaaybe one from Quentyn, but if he survived his last chapter, consider my suspension of disbelief gone).
Danny could fit if you cut some useless chapters from herself, Jon, Tyrion... all of Quentyn, that is, the Battles would fit if the book had been well edited.
This wouldn't be such a problem if we didn't have a 13 year hiatus
@@sassenspeyghel4155 I started the books in 2020 specifically with the thought that the next book couldn’t be that far off since it had been so long….here I am 4 years later 😔
How long did it take you to write your bestselling fantasy epic masterpiece?
@@melissaisloud7404 🧌🧌🧌
@melissaisloud7404 It better be some masterpiece. 13 years is ridiculous. He's old, and his brain doesn't work I bet.
@@melissaisloud7404 this has to be the smoothest brain of the bunch. I love how willing some people are to come to the defense of someone that has repeatedly shown they do not care about any of their fans.
Multiple reference books, a handful of novellas, 3 shows that he helped write or produce, Elden Ring, short story collections, and as many as 7 upcoming novellas and another volume to Fire and Blood. All this in the time since he released anything from his main series. This from the man that put out the first 5 books and as many novellas and other nonsense in 15 years.
Not that I particularily care anymore. Elden Ring was literally his best work. Its blatantly obvious he prefer writing fictional histories and mythologies than he does spending time in those worlds. It is hilarious that people like you, with zero expectations, feel the need to attack people for holding someone accountable.
George making an announcement : "I'm just going to start from scratch".
Fans: die.
Hahah. George himself likely doesn't have long. No way the series is getting finished because of this delay. And it's going to be such a tragedy.
@@jonny-b4954he needs… an heir
@@wyattcole5452 Supposedly he has plans in place for someone to finish the series and has given them a general outline. Not sure if it's true though.
@@jonny-b4954 but given how that worked out for the show he really needs a good writer who can imitate his style the best. I think one of the reasons he can't finish the books is that he has the ending for the main characters but he can't write the way to get them there. I think the ending in the books will be similar in general to the ending of the show, but how it got to that point will be vastly different.
@@jonny-b4954 George would never let that happen. He'd have his notes burned and his records deleted before he let someone else finish his books for him. He is a selfish man.
Battle of Ice -> the strategic battle: Stannis proves that he's the strategic mastermind ("night lamp")
Battle of Fire -> the massive battle: several massive armies, dragons, fighting on land, sea & in the air
Battle of Blood -> the magic battle: blood magic to awaken monsters from the deep 🦑🐙🦑
Battle of Steel -> the significant battle: who rules Westeros in the near future - this event will initiate fAegon's rise & Cersai's fall (even if the actual battle won't happen)
Damn there's something for everyone!!!😁
The Battle of Lust -> the erotic battle: Jaime and Ilyn Payne practicing their swordplay with their penises instead of swords.
Stannis has demonstrated his strategic cunning several times in-universe. The Blackwater only goes badly because Mel is punishing him in her wroth
if night lamp doesnt happen i think im joining the war on GRRM
Stannis has already proven his strategic brilliance; this will prove his tactical skill is nearly as high.
@@famtomerc there's a war on grrm?
The Battle of Ice is the most important, simply because the Mannis is involved
AFfC and ADwD are essentially two unfinished halves of one book.
More like two thirds
Yes, and those halves do not make up a whole book. Both are missing half of the story. The first half of the story of characters A-M is in AFFC and, the first half of characters N-Z in ADWD, ruffly.
That’s exactly what they are. They are the same book but it was too long so George split it in two one with one set of characters and the other with another set of characters
@@orlandorolon7338 True. I understand his need, the story grew, but it has its downsides. Particulary since it has taken such a looooooong time for Winds to be written. Something GRRM probably didnt expect
@@MissyAmy88 go watch the Preston Jacobs video on why Winds is taking so long. Basicaly, he didn't wrote anything for almost 10 years up untill the first c19 lockdown.
You can’t put in “refreshers” I really don’t think Martin would do that. One day, if the series is finished, people will read these books consecutively. It would just be filler to do a recap
I just reread Dance and a TON of characters’ first chapters are exactly that. I think it’ll happen.
Each character’s first chapter always has a recap of important points. This is the case all through the series. It’s not aimed at the hardcore fans but rather the casual fan who hasn’t picked the series up since the previous book came out. Which does tend to be quite a while unfortunately.
@@QuinnTheGM interesting, sorry! I guess I never noticed
Well of course you can't just do "LAST TIME ON GAME OF THRONES Z!!", but this is literally _the main purpose_ of characters' introductory chapters in sequels.
Yeah they're pretty mild recaps if you're coming back after a long time, but having recently binged most of the books you'll get a few early POVs with at least some recap; particularly for when we're coming back to particular characters. Jon and Dany have the most recap-y feeling first chapters, partly because they're the main perspectives for their given areas of the world.
As far as Winds recaps are concerned, it is in an interesting position. A lot of characters are at war, but there's a few that can handle the burden of a plot recap, I think. Sam, Melisandre, Cersei, Jaime/Brienne, and Areo Hotah are all in decent positions to have a sort of 'last we left off' mindset, and you can probably include Asha in that as she's probably not directly fighting. Really the problem area is the Battle of Fire, where we have three different characters looking in on it who are directly involved in the combat, and who already have sample chapters so we know we're hearing from them.
On these 4 battles it always strikes me how 3 out of them have Greyjoys as active participants.
Overall as aSoIaF goes on, feels like Greyjoys (of all families) characters' agency and world impact grows way past of any other families. For comparison: not a single Stark at this point has the freedom to change their environment.
Ha! Never realized that.
Your last point about the Starks is actually something that really bugs me about the books. I love the characters but is really difficult to imagine how they're going to play any role in the story, their narratives are very self-contained.
I like the theory that the "Battle" of Steel isn't going to happen, but be subverted somehow and "won by guile". So if that was going to be in Dance you'd still want another traditional battle to serve as a climax to the action. But assuming that is the case, putting it there probably works better than taking a long hiatus and then introducing a non-battle that subverts expectations readers have forgotten they'd ever had.
Battle of Fire would also work better in Dance; Dany has seemingly already mentally checked out from Meereen so I suspect her forces will lose the city and the battle will only serve to bring all her wannabe courtiers together before they go looking for their queen and head back west. Have that loss be the anticlimax to Dance, paired with a similarly anticlimactic victory for Aegon in Westeros.
The Battle of Blood would be a good opening to the action in Winds, a huge mythical new threat that comes out of nowhere (or would, if we hadn't been reading sample chapters and theorising about it for a decade) and massively changes the stakes.
Then we get the Battle of Ice to cleanse our palate with a nice surprise victory for the Good Guys. This one, too, benefits from the gap. It's so pivotal, the characters waiting for it are left on an interesting cliffhanger, and the Manderlys and Freys coming to blows and then sallying out to battle already serve as a minor climax to the built-up tension in Winterfell.
Agreed on all counts apart from Daenerys losing Meereen. I simply see no way Yunkai can win. Even if the Volantene Fleet destroy the Iron Fleet, Daenerys is torching Yunkai's army and city as soon as she returns (even if she wants to go west).
The winning by guile is the taking of Storm's End. The actual Battle of Steel would be against Mace Tyrell.
I'm pretty sure the Battle of Steel will be won by Guy L. He's a great strategist.
hi quinn, i have to say that it's been great watching you and your channel progress in quality. given that the ASOIAF fandom has been around for so long, it's easy to repeat the same discussions and talking points over and over, but i feel like you always bring a fresh perspective with every video.
thanks for all your hard work!
“Clarifying the complaint” this mf litigating
Thinking of the Pink Letter, Roose’s leaches, Stannis and King Theon give the Battle of Ice my most anticipated battle, although I really hope Selmy shines!
With Kevan dead , I assumed Cersei will take back the regency. Now it's more interesting to think Mace Tyrell is going to impose his will to be Regent
Kevan isn't/wasn't Hand of the King. Mace Tyrell already is the acting Hand.
@@samskott2344 My bad, I meant Mace will want the regency now, and name another his hand
@@alexmars1511this makes perfect sense, it would also fuel cersei's belief of a tyrell plot
I love dance, the build up is insanely good and it has a SUBSTANTIAL amount of world building, it’s the book that truly separates the book from the show, so much of it is about army sizes and food stock piles and fleet sizes, it gives the series so much scope, it’s probably my favorite.
#StannisTheMannis
im currently re-reading the whole series and now that im about halfway through Dance, it's moved up into easily top 3 for me
Half of it is amazing, and then the second half just kinda drags
Never really thought about this. They all seem like one story to me, therefore, i'm not looking for a 'conventional" novel structure. Sure , in a standalone novel, you have your rising, falling action etc. In this series, you get action and quiet moments that seem to follow the story more than a typical novel structure.
For example, we get Blackwater battle in the 2nd half of Clash but there's quite a lot of follow up action before the end.
In the ASOS paperback, there are over 400 pages following the climatic RW chapters. The Relief of the NW by Stannis is arguably the ending of the book but leaves us with plenty of questions regarding the fallout of Stannis suddenly jamming things up with the Watch.
As such, I don't view the narrative structure of ADWD as too different from any other 'ending' we've had in the series. Some threads get resolved, most end with more questions than answers and we generally get an ever so slight moment of hope or peril to guide the reader into the next book.
The only issue is there is such a gap between now and TWOW coming out! If TWOW came out in 2014, I doubt anyone would say this
I'm most excited to see my boy Stannis (the true and rightful king) kick ass in the Battle of Ice.
I think Steel should have been in adwd as well, cause then you would have plot pay off and you would go into twow with more momentum of the Faegon cause. It would pose a bigger threat
Snow should be in twow I think, cause of the required set-up and the pink letter mystery, which would be totally ruined if we knew it was all a lie.
The problem with Martin is that he knows how to build and grow a story but he doesn’t know how to finish.
The biggest reason why all of those things were cut off is because Martin plans on Winds being the book when the story itself climaxes, and Dream is the closing, so Dream will be very anticlimactic as a consequence because it is a singular story. Martin has gone on record discussing this. "Winter is when things die."
You're talking out of your a**.
This is exactly why I've come to quite enjoy quentins story over the years, has an adventure develops as a character dares to be great but ultimately fails and his story wraps up a nice arc with a definite end
PLEASE GEORGE JUST GIVE US WINDS I DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT DREAM JUST WINDS WERE BEGGING
I think it would have been really nice to end Dance with the battles of Ice and Fire going back and forth between viewpoints there, and then having a start for Winds with Steel and Blood, balances it out a bit and gives for a climatic ending for Dance and a jumpstart for Winds
Definitely a top 5 ASOIAF book
I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of these battles turned out to be nothing - like a quick victory or non-event. I know that's disappointing, but all of these in one novel is kind of ridiculous.
Biggest flaw is not enough of the north and Bran. I want more Lovecraftian horror!
See I have a worry that in a rush to wrap these things up George will have to do something similar to what the show did. Rapidly cut character and content as a means to get it more focused and to an end. Especially with Danny in the East. A sort of Sept of Baelor / Cersei event that takes out a bunch of characters in one quick stroke. And obviously that is not George’s way. So I’m a bit worried that the first half of Winds will just be filled with quick deaths and lots of quick endings for storylines that obviously are a bit bloated and would take an entire book itself to untangle.
The thing is, the show apparently based much of its post-book-based events on what GRRM told D&D what would generally happen in his books. So there’s still a big possibility that the sept of baelor explosion still happens, or something like it that takes out a bunch of characters within a short span of time.
I think he's probably wrote rewrote, discarded and added again enough for 4 novels in the 13 years..
I'd much rather that be the reality rather than GRRM not writing anything for years.
@@elijahalbiston Vacillation is his problem imo
Where would I rank ADWD? Not sure, I'll let you know when it's finished.
I really think AFFC should have ended with the conclusions of its characters that we saw in ADWD (For example Cersei would have had her walk of shame in AFFC, Jamie would’ve gone off with Brienne, maybe even include all the Greyjoy and Dorne chapters up to TWOW as well) which would then have left more room for the battle of fire at the end of ADWD. It would also just make things less complicated when rationalising the decision to split ADWD into two novels as they would wholeheartedly be two books that focus on the different characters in different locations at relatively the same time. This would also make both novels feel more whole as we’d see the conclusions of respective characters’ arcs in the same novel that they were established in - not to mention that the battle of fire just felt like the natural conclusion to ADWD (keep the epilogue though because it would be cool to check back in with the AFFC characters at the end of this big act that is AFFC and ADWD, and it would remind readers that AFFC and ADWD have caught up with each other and that the story is now continuing chronologically. I reckon this also would’ve made TWOW easier to write.
I finished ADWD last week and that was my biggest issue too. I loved all the rest of the book, but the end doesn't "ending" was very disappointing for me. After all the journey we read of AFFC and ADWD I was expecting a bigger climax for the end.
If George wants to avoid writing recaps as POV chapters, he could open Winds with a Fire & Blood style Maester excerpt, an in-universe text explaining the War of the Five Kings (thus far) and the events of Essos. Then he could segue into the POVs.
When I read the books for the first time, the family trees in the back of the books always served as enough recapping for me anyway.
Dany’s white horse is the shrouded lord
Theory confirmed!!!!!
George’s said he’s struggled because he isn’t releasing volumes of an already completed series (like Book of the New Sun was fully written and then released in volumes each year)
Dance suffers big time because Winds wasn’t finished. Makes me think there might be hope that he’s working through Dream of Spring before releasing Winds so he doesn’t write himself into anymore corners with only 1 book to get out
I just love imaging in my minds eye Victarion and his Greyjoy fleet sailing into Slavers bay to see the conflict brewing, but with his scarred hand, and not knowing the full context of the battle, decides to wage sea warfare on the Enemies.
For me if we ever get winds I wanna see the battle of ice considering how bad stannis’ death was done in the show. I think he has a plannis
I can't see all 4 battles being put to page, it'll make things feel overstuffed with similar sorts of chapters. It sounds like the battles of ice and of fire are supposed to be put to the page, and both of them should have been at the end of dance.
As for the battles of blood and steel, I think they'll be off page. Both those battles seem to be the starts of bigger potential conflicts and it would be better to build suspense to have them off page and have other characters start hearing about them in viewpoint chapters, particularly with the battle of blood where the rumours and potential misinformation from the battle that could occur could make Euron's threat that much more terrifying.
I always think back on him saying there’s an important character he regrets killing off. Going into a dream of spring I highly doubt he wants to make a similar mistake and once he releases winds there’s no going back. The longer he waits to release winds the more freedom he has to work on a dream of spring. I don’t think he’ll release winds until a dream of spring is done, and he doesn’t want to admit they winds is finished because people will pressure him to release it
I think AFFC and Dance of dragons share the same flaws, it created more plotlines that should have. Or at least, they should have ended in AFFC or in Dance of dragons to allow Winds and ADOS another plotlines to close the chronicals, like Dany in Westeros after finishing Battle of Fire, the north after the Battle of ice, Greyjoys, the Others finally reaching the Wall and being a "known public" threat to Westeros.
I love George endless creativity in expanding the world each single chapter and book, but this as well slows him in writing and in finishing each volume.
The battles I’m most eager to read about are first Fire and then Ice. Steel doesn’t really seem to be so interesting to me, and Blood is a wildcard, literally anything could happen there!
I feel once we finally get winds my opinion on Dance will be higher. I like the book, but it’s definitely like a bottom 2 in the series for me at the moment and it basically leaving us on like a 13 year cliffhanger definitely doesn’t help.
Other than that I just have trouble with it’s consistency. Like some of my favorite chapters and plotlines in the entire series are in dance, but at the same time some of my least favorite chapters in the entire series are in dance lol
I has always been my favorite book of the series, arguably tied with Storm, but I am just a sucker for Dany, Jon, Davos and Tyrion chapters, aswell as the Reek story, and the Northern Madness beginning, it was always great.
It feels like ASOIAF ilwas set up to be two trilogies. The firat half climaxing with storm, and feast and dance acting as one book seting up the second half of the series.
We need 3 books at minimum, probably 4.
Dude had in mind a trilogy, A game of thrones, a dance with dragons (faegon) and winds of winter.
WE ARE STILL IN A GAME OF THRONES, Daenerys has yet to cross the ocean
Right
The Battle of Fire should be in the fifth book. Unless Daenerys doesn't play a part in it.
Dany probably won’t play a part in it, given that she’s currently headed in the opposite direction
He should split Winds in half. Have WoW books 1 & 2 then possibly DoS if he lives long enough
I think the Battle of Ice should have happened (or at least started) at the end of Dance. The fact that we don't see Stannis' death pretty much guarantees he isn't - if we'd seen the battle at least start, then the Pink Letter might be more believable. Can't kill off a main(ish) character completely offscreen!
Fully agreed with the battle of Fire, that should've been the conclusion to Dance...an explosive sendoff and an important knot untied before Dany eventually comes back
‘ADWD has been rising in my estimations recently, because for the last 13 odd years I’ve had to keep reading it for lack of answers so I know it better now’
Aha I play, sort of, I’m with you though
I can't wait for the battle of ice. It has many of my favorite characters
If you think about it dance ends the same way HOTD season 2 does.
So much set up for different battles and storylines then it just stops
ADWD gets overloaded with POVs in the second half when the viewpoints from Feast pop up again, and this made the storyline somewhat incoherent. For example, Cersei's walk of atonement -- why was this not in AFFC? Would it not have been a much more natural ending to her arc in that book? It feels like poor planning on Martin's part and IMO is a bigger problem with ADWD.
We could’ve had a conclusion if George hadn’t included a bunch of filler storylines. It’s well written filler but it’s still filler that hampered a proper conclusion to Dance. George needs to return to the writing pace he had in Storm.
Feast and Dance need a complete re write.
I'm most excited for the battle of ice.
Which battles would you have included in Seasons 5 and 6?
Do not mind me guys, I'm just here, waiting for Glidus eats the new book :D
that theon portrait was a jumpscare
I really think Battle of Ice should be in TWoW and only Battle of Fire should have been in TDwD
am I the only one who never read the sample chapters winds of winter to save them for release ? I feel like I do not know half this stuff with it being right on the edge of Dance
Battle of ice!
I gotta disagree with you on your wanting fire to be in dance. I just feel like the reveal of the dragonbinding horn is tied in with euron and the battle of blood and having only one of those in dance would be a bit too big of a reveal
In Preston Jacob's we trust
Weird
Ehhh, I don't think his fanfic is very good. He is including too much of his tinfoil in it.
Preston doesn't believe in magic. I like some of his more grounded theories, but the fanfic isn't that good. I do like his voice though.
Where is this fanfic? 😅
@@anaisabel713 on his youtube channel, called Sweetrobin's fan fiction project
Here's what I think
Prologue: Barristan Selmy
The Forsaken
Chapters 1 and 2: Tyrion, then Daenerys (The Battle of Fire)
Move away for a bit (Jaime?)
More foreshadowing for the Battle of Steel and the Battle of Ice
The Battles of Steel and Ice, swapping between them every one or two chapters
Foreshadow the Others invasion
Davos in Skagos
Foreshadow the Battle of Blood (Aeron's still alive)
Cersei dies
Arianne marries fAegon
Jon (Warged as Ghost) has his singular chapter where he kills Theon to avenge Bran/Rickon
Davos returns from Skagos
Battle of Blood (Sam injures Euron with a bowshot but gets captured, Aeron's still alive)
Stannis takes Winterfell (Ramsay dies)
Willas Tyrell!?
Victarion leads naval assault against Euron
Others invasion begins
Euron escapes Daenerys/Victarion's fleet, but Sam and Aeron escape
Sam returns to the Wall after the Others destroy it
Howland Reed appears
Victarion and Damphair reunite
Others invasion continues to Winterfell
Damphair has a vision about Valyria (Euron's a liar)
Eddard Stark chapter (In the afterlife - flashbacks about Robert's Rebellion to foreshadow Jon stuff)
Jon gets revived
Damphair and Victarion go to Valyria
Epilogue: Stannis (Slain by Others)
Whoops I forgot Bran... and Sansa... and Arya.
I guess Bran sees a bunch of Others in his five or six chapters (Foreshadowing), Arya does nothing relevant in her one chapter, and Sansa gets Winterfell from Stannis in her three or four chapters. Or something like that.
I feel like Clash of Kings has a similar problem. People just dont notice since Storm of Swords came out a year after
I disagree, largely because I think the Blackwater acts as a pretty good plot climax.
@@QuinnTheGM The Blackwater is definetely a climax battle (something that as you point out a
ADWD lacks) but unlike all the other books, even book 5 to an extent, i feel like you can tell what a POV character will do in the next book by reading the final chapter in aCoK, and i feel the Blackwater to characters like Tyrions and Davos are more cliffhanger s and fakeouts unlike end chapters in other books.
Idk if anything i said there made sense but i hope it does. Didnt want to write a 20 page essay with direct examples 😅
A Dance has neither begginings nor ends
I prefer Books 4 and 5 in the Boiled Leather non-spoiler reading order.
It's a big assumption that all 4 of these are happening
Fire and Ice, sure
Last we heard Aegon had Storm's End and lord knows what Euron is really up to
I have never met a fan who unironically loved AFfC.
Brienne’s chapters are just so mind-numbingly dull. What does she even accomplish?
Arianne’s story is going nowhere fast. Just more characters without any point to them. A failed coup, a maimed child and some whining in confinement.
We watch Sam observe Aemon slowly die. What does his journey accomplish? One POV chapter was needed. He went from the wall to Oldtown. He fucked Gilly. He met Marwyn.
Heroes are supposed to do IMPORTANT things. Or else why write about them?
This format is like the powerpoints I show up with last second in school
first of all.... AFFC's, and ADWD's were suppose to be one book, and GRRM was made to split it. Secondly, i agree that there's very little character/plot devlopment in either of these books, with both lacking any kind of payoff.
'Greatest flaw'
Howmstever,
the dictionary of material is leading to a 'Black shows of UPN', 'TGIF' line-up of HBO shows? 🤔
🚶🏿
I guess Jon's story has a conclusion for Dance and it all it took was a fucking Caesar moment
Martin will probably publish the next book two years from now and he won’t finish the last one. Nor any of the ancillary novels. I’m surprised that fans still believe that he’ll finish the series.
Hemingway used to write in the morning and stop when he got to something that was easy to continue the next day. That's what's so disconcerting about how long it's been for George: He has 4 battles he set up over the course of 2 books. It's action set pieces that should be easier to set up and as he writes it, the outcomes should organically lead into logical places.
It's not like he ended ADWD and Feast with no places to go. He ended it in the middle of new action that should have been easy to pick back up from.
Just because he can “easily” pick up the beginning of Winds doesn't mean the remaining 800+ pages would be any easier or less time-consuming
@@MugenHeadNinja He has other priorities in his life. Finishing these is not even in his top ten is my point. It was easy to pick back up, except it's not the focus of his life anymore and it's the type of series where it has to be.
@@MugenHeadNinja- He’s lazy and disorganized
It is my favourite
In my ignorant opinion, I feel like some characters have complete arcs, but the core plot doesn't.
Theon and Dany have complete arcs, but we don't get the climax of the plots in the North and in Meereem.
In my opinion, some chapters should belong to the 4th book. And others have half the development.
George feels like he has written himself into corners in aFfC and aDwD, and he wishes he could change things. That is why he isn't going to release WoW until he has finished the entire series. He is finishing the final book now and will release the books one year apart. In fact he is finishing TWO books after Winds. How is that for unjustified wishful thinking?! How else can you explain how long WoW has taken? :)
Ive stopped caring years ago.
Then why are you here?
Like, subscribe, TH-cam STUFF!!!!
I don't understand why you'd ask for recap chapters. That just means that we lose more room in WOW from stuff we want, to stuff we don't. Anyone who has forgotten how it has all gone can go reread ADWD.
I’m exactly not asking for them. I don’t want them but I think they’ll happen.
Battle of fire is just the second seige of Mereen
okay but nnow i want to know your least favorite then versus now :P
It blows my mind that there are people who still believe Winds of Winter is actually going to come out
Frog boy dead.
Big if true
I don't think saying Martin has been writing Winds of Winter for 13 years is accurate, since I believe he only spent a fraction of this time period actually writing.
Well if it's to be believed he wrote the entire book and had to start over it makes sense he has actually spent a lot of the last 13 years writing it.
The battle of blood 🩸🦑
For me, in order from most to least is, the Battle of Ice, Blood, Fire, and Steal.
Same, but I swap the last two.
boy
yeah beach ;3
game of thrones killed a song of ice and fire
There's a great video by Magne Mirare that critiques Martin has having essentially fallen into post-modernity, and made the series unfinishable. Highly recommended
Dance is the last book we will get in the main series.
We all need to make our own head canon on how the story ends.
I mean it certain sounds like winds is coming, but dream isn't.
@@beeeeeesburyYeah even if Martin does tomorrow there is definitely enough book for it to get an incomplete postmortem release
love ur vids
I agree, honestly the Moon Boy- Quentyn sex scene really dragged the book down.
But at least that scene confirmed Tyrions theory that Moonboy is a descendant of the ancient house Forallino
It was definitely out of place, but it had such sensual and erotic prose. It was some of GRRM's best work. We also learn a lot about how Quentyn's manhood looks, and I think that will be important for Winds.
@@j-rey- hmm, you're talking about the "rosy thick pole"? 😁
Well it is established early on that Moon Boy sleeps around and has a degree of infamy about this habit. He seems to have something of an addiction to it even.
@@ThommyofThenn I heard they call him moon boy because all the girls need moon tea after they've met with him.
I've been saying for years that george doesn't have 2 books he needs to finish but 3. A dance with dragons is technically incomplete since he pushed back many of the fights to winds
Even the sample chapters could be non canon since George has been rewriting a lot
We're so cooked
3 at minimum, probably 4.
Dude had in mind a trilogy, q game of thrones, a dance with dragons (faegon) and winds of winter.
WE ARE STILL IN A GAME OF THRONES, Daenerys has yet to cross the ocean
@@inigo137 You're assuming the original plan is still the one, the Reconquest and the Others seem to be scheduled to happen simultaneously in Dream.
So many conflicts are going to require resolution in Winds that it almost has to be cover to cover death and battles. Funny that it mirrors the shows season structure that way, the penultimate episode being the battle episode.
The reason: George created too much plotlines in AFFC and Dance that is slowing and making him confused, probably. Like i bet he has a excel or any type of map of what he needs to finish, and yeah....two books of 900-1000 pages arent enough for that. So he needs to end abruptly or surprise the audience expectation of certain battles or character arcs
It's worth noting that the entire War of Five Kings happened & we got one battle actually on the page. In the whole five books we've only had two, fully on-page battles: the Blackwater & Castle Black. George's preference is clearly to build up to a battle then skip to the end & recount specific incidents after the fact. I point this out because I think that two of the four battles discussed in this video will largely follow that format. Yes, we know that the Battle of Fire & the Battle of Ice will be on the page, but I think it likely that the other two (Blood & Steel) will not be fully on the page. Indeed from the Arianne sample chapters it seems that Aegon may already have taken Storm's End & as for the Battle of Blood, our PoV for that is Aeron & he is... not exactly the most reliable of narrators just now.
You’re forgetting the one from Game from Tyrion’s perspective.
But yes, you’re overall correct-we didn’t see either of Robb’s victories before Riverrun let alone in the Westerlands; we didn’t see Bolton selling out Glover at Duskendale, nor Tywin’s relief of King’s Landing, Dany’s victory over the Yunkai happens off-screen during a chapter, the taking of Mereen between chapters…I feel like I’m forgetting one.
@@warlordofbritannia Yeah that's my bad, I mixed up book & show regarding Tyrion. Been a while since I read that chapter. It's only about a quarter of the chapter though, right ? Barely even longer than the skirmish at LF brothel or Brienne vs the 7 bandits. Blackwater & Castle Black are the only battles that span multiple chapters/PoVs. Is the one your forgetting maybe the battle at the Fist of the First Men ? I seem to remember that being mostly told in flashbacks.
Never thought about this but I think you are very right. I do think battle of blood will be more indirect pov of what happens with what you said plus and or sam trying to just survive and not know exactly what is going on or even happen.
@@Fe22234Also considering George's tendency to keep magic mysterious, and the high possibility that Euron will do something magical at Oldtown, we may only hear second hand about what 'may' have gone down there after the fact
Honestly couldn't care less about the Battle of Steel. Storm's End is a key fortress, but it's also not defended by anyone relevant and a major siege would require massive effort to portray well and doesn't serve any particular narrative purpose - Griff is already in Westeros with his army.
The results of that battle will be big. Assuming Aegon gets a foothold there and sends ravens to the 7 kingdoms, does he get support?
Yeah it's more about the aftermath of what happens if he takes it so I would be good with it being skipped and maybe recounted over in minor detail in a John con chapter
I personally anticipate the battle of blood the most. It's the one with the most wildcards and the one we are the least certain how It's gonna play out. I also love the southern Reach as the setting
i hope that we learn more about how aegon and connington win storms end through guile. it sounds like such a classic mythological moment
To save GRRM from himself, I think there is no need to depict the battle of Steel at all. Just tell me they took it, give me a few sentences and move on. We ain't got time for this! In the same vein I'd say this is not a normal book series, so no recap needed.
That's probably what's going to happen.
The worst part? I’m pretty sure two or three more chapters would have given us a proper climax - Theon I from TWOW and then an Asha battle chapter, and then another “battle” chapter that immediately precedes the Pink Letter chapter. That last chapter is where they Trojan horse Winterfell after Stannis fakes his defeat, and we see Ramsay send off a letter before the Boltons inside are massacred. In some respects, this could have been the first chapter of TWOW, with the Asha battle chapter ending in a way implying Stannis lost (the Manderlys charging in), and then Asha’s first TWOW opens with her as a prisoner of Freys and Manderlys (actually Stannis’s men, but written in a way we don’t realize it was a Trojan horse until the massacre begins).
The battle in the ice is all we needed; Meereen would take far mote chapters since I think Daenerys might be part of it, and her ending is nowhere near it (I could be wrong, but…). I do love Dany’s last chapter in ADWD. Like there’s at least 5 or 6 chapters in it, no way it could have fit.
Your battle of blood thoughts were exactly on point; it didn’t belong in ADWD with The Forsaken in TWOW. Battle of steel makes sense too because GRRM didn’t plan to have the attack on Storm’s End (an attack by guile, tricking the garrison to let them in) be on-page at all; admittedly, it might have been cool to see in ADWD.
Highly agree. Getting the Pink Letter chapter without seeing any of the Battle of Ice made it a little too obvious that it was fake and/or contained incorrect information. If we had seen the beginning of the battle and it looked like Stannis was doomed, then got the Pink Letter, I might actually think Stannis died.
As you said, Asha's chapter could include the Freys and Manderlys approaching the fishing village from all sides, the Freys on the side with the frozen lake, and the Manderlys on the other (since Crowfood Umber informed them of the plan). Asha could see them slaughtering their highly trained men, killing most of the Northern hill clans and Stannis's best knights, then see Big Walder approach her with Crowfood's head on a pike and surround her with a couple dozen Frey soldiers. Then we see the Pink Letter chapter. In the beginning of Winds, we then see how the battle actually turned out.
And yes, the Battle of Fire will be way too big to fit into a few chapters. We'll probably get two or more chapters from each of Tyrion, Barristan, Victarion, and maybe one from Dany (and maaaybe one from Quentyn, but if he survived his last chapter, consider my suspension of disbelief gone).
Danny could fit if you cut some useless chapters from herself, Jon, Tyrion... all of Quentyn, that is, the Battles would fit if the book had been well edited.