12 years… anyone else just slowly move from binge watching one ASOIAF TH-camr to another in a hopeless merry-go-round just for those occasional hits of… idk whatever ASOIAF has me hooked on.
As Alt shift Xand Gladius put it, if you haven't jumped off the ASOIAF wagon by now, there really is no point in doing so. I am the same, I wish I couldn't give a shot and just leave the whole series behind me as great books that will never be finished, but I'm in way too deep for way too long.
One thing that Martin started doing in Feast that I really love, is using epithets instead of names for chapter titles. With these titles, the reader can get relevant information about the character’s attributes, skills, mental state, and/or goals. Theon, for example, has the most amazing chapter titles in the series in ADWD; Reek, Reek, Reek, The Prince of Winterfell, The Turncloak, A Ghost in Winterfell, Theon. I swear, just thinking about turning the page in ADWD to see the chapter titled “Theon”… gives me chills.
Love that as well. His chapters in Dance remind me of Raskolnikov in Crime And Punishment by Dostoevsky. I think he had one of the best arcs in the show despite the fact that his final sacrifice was kind of pointless. Wouldve been better if he had double teamed the Night King with Arya and died in the process. Or better yet triple teamed him with Arya and Jon.
"It's hard to believe there was a point in time where A Song of Ice and Fire novels were actively being published" Me too, man. Only been a fan since 2020, me too...
The most ideal and elegant solution to the Meeraneese Knot is to make Strong Belwas a new POV character to tell the entirety of it's resolution through
Now re-read feast and dance at the same time. It lines up with each book in terms of things each location was hearing of the other. Plus it’s the way GRRM originally wrote it, so why not?
@@vin8754 But it hasn't done anything and saying his influence is important is only an excuse to not write the Bran plot as it is. So it could be taken out and then you write a Midnight Sun style story where we see Brans perspective and what it impacted once all the events have actually happened. Although fueling the addiction peddling and keeping the series alive through it might be the most important thing Bran amounts to.
@@Dragonshade64 not done anything? first of all, its clear that the books are not finished yet, so you cant even say that. The three eyed raven is clearly trying to help stop the Others once they attack(which will 100% happen at some point in the next 2 books), and he is almost confirmed to have in some way influenced Euron Greyjoy in the past, who is currently on the verge of stealing Danys dragons. Bran is a vessel that George uses to give us insight into the more mystical elements of the books, to cut him out would be terrible
Asha's the Kings Prize chapter were Stannis is matching to winterfell was honestly really well done and deserved a mention. It really shows you why people love Stannis despite his stern personality his unyielding never give up attitude even when everything seems hopeless dude still matches on it's honestly inspiring plus Stannis was so funny in this chapter everything he said was really LOL my favorite being his "pray harder" line to one of the Florents😂😂😂😂Stannis like Cersie are unintentionally funny people We get one of my favorite speeches in ASOIAF this chapter the saving Ned's little girl speech was honestly gold.... Really well done Martin
The king stood outside his tent, staring into the nightfire. What does he see there? Victory? Doom? The face of his red and hungry god? His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close- cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course.
I actually really enjoy Dany's arc in Meereen despite it moving at a snail's pace. Nothing and nobody are as they appear, and I really enjoy peeling the layers of the onion to riddle it all out. The best part is just when you've come up with a reasonable explanation for something, say the identity of the poisoner, you latch onto 2 or 3 other equally plausible explanations. I love that. PS- totally agree that Ser Grandfather's 'Kingbreaker' chapter is one of the series' very best. It's my 2nd favorite after Arianne's 'Queenmaker' :) .
The lack of an ending is exactly my problem with this book, both dance and feast really suffer from a lack of major events that change the status quo or pay off any of the build up happening in both these books, like other than Jon dying hardly anything major happens and the things the characters do accomplish are mostly just footnotes in their stories or b tier goals, like JonCon’s taking of Griffin’s Roost has a lot of personal significance, but not much for the actual story, ending the book with taking storms end though, firmly establishing them in the stormlands would’ve been really significant and at least the battle of fire or ice should’ve taken place, Jamie’s story should’ve ended with meeting Stoneheart, not just on the way there with Brienne and Dany could’ve arrived in Vase Dothrak
Dance and Feast is the treat George gave himself: one book that is not whole(feast) and a book that has no ending(dance). Instead of choosing only one mistake, he opted to write a shitload of ironborn bullshit and make two mistakes. He's been suffering from his foolishness since.
Rereading this book is immensly important. So much setup and maneuvering is happening on page but is obscured by a seeming lull in action and very similar soundinng names that blend together in mereen, even george not so subtly through Archibald calling them all “Harzoo”. So much just slips through the cracks the first time reading or especially listening that I feel affected it’s perception. After rereading Feast and Dance I definitely appreciate them way more and notice new things every single time. Especially after getting into Dreamsongs to read the Thousand Worlds stories. Makes me appreciate Martin’s writing even more seeing how original and bold and experimental and emotionally evocative he is from the start of his career. And in my opinion in Dance it is a Master at work still trying new things and taking his magnum opus as far as it needs in order to perfect it. And if Winds ever comes out, people would surely look back more fondly on Dance.
Exactly. Imagine how much criticism aGoT and aCoK would get if aSoS never came out. With the resolutions in mind, you can reread the first two books and see that a lot of what seemed meandering or extraneous was actually foreshadowing or exposition for something only important 2 books later
I watched about three seasons of the show before I started reading the series. I actually love both (up to an obvious point) but I was shocked that Victarion. Wasn’t included. What a great character.
Victarion's character is sort of merged into Euron in the show. The show does this with a few book characters, instead of including all 2-3 characters it will combine aspects of all their personalities into one.
Meereen is, in my opinion, the most interesting piece in the series. It is so good, in fact, that I almost feel as though he should have kept the five year gap and just made a Meereen + “Stirrings” book to fill said gap so that in winds/some other book before it Dany could be retooled (as it currently seems Dany will serve as at most a light tap and at worst a narrative parallel to the westerosi conflict.).
I don't think Mel was originally intended to be a POV. George has talked about how he gave her a chapter in Dance largely because he felt her motivations were misunderstood
I would honesty have no problem with the winds of winter just beginning with Dany flying towards Westeros and Barristan, Jorah and Tyrion on a boat about to arrive at Westeros and we never have to hear of anything about Mereen again.
Jorah turns to Tyrion "man i can't believe rocks fell on the entire country." "yeah kinda sucks" Tyrion agrees..... "so anyway have i mentioned how much i hate my sister?"
I just read through the boiled leather chronological order of Feast and Dance last year for the first time and it became so much clearer to me with what GRRM was going for, I adore all 5 books.
A fact people won't usually mention when they complain about waiting is that no one expected Game of Thrones to become the biggest show of all time. George suddenly went from having all the time in the world to write to having almost no days off for 4 years. Then he cowrote a world book and Fire and Blood. He also has signed off and is overseeing potentially 8 spin off shows as well as the 2nd half of Fire and Blood. Dance was my favorite book of the series. Although i have yet to reread them. For me the meh chapters were spaced out enough in between some incredible chapters. Every Greyjoy kills it, Jon and Dany having to rule was a really great parallel. Dany in Mereen definitely had it's slower moments, but i always think back the George's quote of, "What is Aragorn's tax plan?" That is the reality of being a Queen, of being a new ruler in a foreign land. Its Dany's real big test for her dreams and goals. When she gets to Westeros, even if she becomes Queen, she will still be a new ruler in foreign land with conspiracies everywhere
How on Earth did he go to no days off for four years? He wrote what, an episode per season? Which I don't think anyone could force him to do, as no one held him at gunpoint making him write for the world book and F&B.
@@smarttravel3144 Yup, GRRM found himself in another series of knots after all the extra threads he created in Dance on top of everything else from the first 4 books. He clearly got stuck writing Dance years ago and has found other things to distract him.
The expanse obviously wasn’t nearly as popular as game of thrones but those authors were still writing the books while working on the show and they didn’t have a problem finishing. Martin made the story too complicated and now can’t figure out how to bring everyone together
I saw that little note: Victarion indeed is the Stump that was promised. All who deny this are just too smart to understand; like George said, “Victarion is the key to all of this, if we get him working, because he’s dumber than any character we’ve had before.”
So Varys is definitely a College of Whispers Bard/Mastermind Rogue multiclass, yeah? Great job on the video! I’m actually doing a combined re-read of Feast and Dance right now, so this video was a really fun watch.
Honestly I’d say Assassin for his Rogue subclass. It’s a TERRIBLE subclass mechanically but they get a ton of stuff baked-in for assuming and creating false identities, which we know he loves to do.
@@QuinnTheGM Man, I forgot about the assassin, that works so much better! I did like the languages and reading other people stuff from mastermind, but there’s no beating the assassin for disguises.
Great video! Love the content. Honestly, I think the 5th book was largely what inspired me to try writing myself. Like Fantasy Haven, I aspire to be able to write a story where the sort of situation in Winterfell is possible. Dripping with intrigue, espionage, and double entendres amongst the characters and the alliances. It's mindblowing when you really start putting the pieces together, like the Frey Pies moment for example.
First time I heard George RR Martin's name was in 1973 at a comic book store in Arlington TX. Sandkings made me a fan in 1979 when it appeared Omni magazine. I picked the first paperback edition of A Game of Thrones off the shelf in 1997 cynically thinking 'GRRM's jumping on Robert Jordan's bandwagon.' When I started reading I discovered it different than Wheel of Time, more medieval than fantasy. I read a few chapters after Bran suffered a long fall and stopped reading. Knowing I wouldn't remember a thing by the time the next book came out I decided to read the series in one long read when when it was done, it was only going to be a trilogy, right? Dutifully I bought each one as soon as I saw it, I have a lovely set of first edition paperbacks, only the fifth has HBO's logo on it. I avoided listening to people talking about the TV show at work. In 2019 I finally caved and read the books watching the show at the same time. Now I'm waiting like everyone else. George told the Australians a few years ago they could lock him in a room and force him to finish the series but the fools let him out of the country!
The Meereenes Knot is likely to become a writers turn of phase for dealing with an impossible plot stall; like Chekhov's [instert here] became a term for a plot device.
I too began reading the books in 2016. I remember at the time thinking about how I had to breeze through them as George probably would've released Winds that year or the following 😅
ADWD on its own merits is such a fantastic book. As time goes on, I love it more and more and I think should WoW deliver on some key payoffs, the fanbase will only see ADWD in a far kinder light. That’s a pretty big if though….
@Quinn the GM, I understand the love of this world from the fandom, and the new and insightful content you produce, big applause. But how anyone that can let your crossbow sneak attack damage go unnoticed, unmentioned, and probably misunderstood, is beyond me. I see you, I see your background in D&D, I appreciate you.
I love your analysis videos, Theories and theory videos about asoiaf are great but Analysis of this stuff and analysis of the themes of each characters story is a much more unique video idea, hope you make more theme and analysis based videos in the future
2016? Oh my sweet summer child! Love seeing late comers game the system and make a buck out of it too, rubs the pretentious 90s forebears the wrong way and Im here for it.
*It's clear to me that GRRM has created such a huge world with so many stories, plots, characters and mysteries that now he doesn't know how to finish his work, as it has become extremely complex. Sadly, we will never have the pleasure of reading the end of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's like he fed his child so much and now his child has become a monster. I don't even feel like rereading the books, because it's like starting to watch a canceled series. Why would you follow an endless story?*
I would agree with the theon section. The last sentance from him in the asha chapter probably had the largest emotional impact of anything in this series for me. "Your name. You *have* to rememeber your name"
I can’t understand the heat George gets. He is writing such a massive story. This is why we love the story. It’s so big and complex. It’s going to take a lot of work to finish it. George will finish it and it will be amazing.
I can. Words are Wind, and George has made a lot of promises he didn't keep. I agree we shouldn't feel entitled, but he has said so many times that the books were just around the corner, and eventually the TV show surpassed him and ruined revelations that people have been waiting for over 2 decades!!! So i can totally understand people being angry at him.
He gets the heat because, had he been writing even 100 (one hundred) words a day all this time, which would have taken him let's say half an hour--so plenty of free time left--he would have had enough material for a aDwD-sized book by now.
Hey Quinn, why didn't you do a retrospective for GoT, SoS and A Feast for Crows? I never conciously thought about it but Ser Arlan is From Pennytree and Dunk doesn't know where it is, as of yet. but for some reason that's also where Jaime and Brienne reunite. Brienne being descendant from Dunk, I only assume this may be important somehow.
I work in publishing and I was told (I forget by whom now so that's what makes this sketchy) that ADWD was edited in multiple parts. Meaning then did edits, copyedits, proofreading and design on one part and then that was locked, before the next part went through all that. I remember it because I thought, "Oh that's why some of the chapters feel so repetitive." It's more like a serialized story (Dickens' David Copperfield is a good example because it was published in newspapers not a novel format, so every few chapters he has to remind you who some characters are). This was done so that they only had a chunk to edit once he announced he was "finished" so it could be published as soon as possible. I'd love to know if anyone else has heard this. I could have been fed bad information. I totally agree some chapters should have been cut but if it was edited this way then it would've been costly to go back.
That’s such an interesting perspective, thank you for sharing! Interesting that it came in batches. If only there were any publishing insight for Winds out there 👀
Damn George now I'm really sad. I wish we at least had Winds so we could theorize, bicker, and reread the whole series again for the next 5 or 6 years (hopefully) until Dream comes out lol. So sad.
i just finished the fifth book for the first time (i had read the first 4 earlier and then taken too long in between reading the 4th and 5th that i had to read them all again) and omfg the barristan chapter near the end was a true masterpiece. it was such a thrill and reminded me of all the best parts about tyrions chapters in book 2. these are the plot lines that made me absolutely fall in love with this world and martins writing style.
Great video Quinn! You know, listening to you and other ASOIAF enthusiasts keeps making me think that the next stage in discussion/theorising about aspects of the series, might be served by more direct interaction between people like you, Preston Jacobs, Alt Shift X etc. For example - we all know why Preston is determined that Quentyn is Alive - and why others balk at the idea, but I can't help but wonder at what interesting synthesis might be born from two well-read theorists getting together to present, debate and discuss ideas like that together. We've got some collabs - but little more from what I've seen so far.
Great job! I’d LOVE to get a video like this in all the other books. And, if you’d be open to it, I’m sure I’m not the only one who would like to hear you cover the wide swathe of Martins other works. As far as I know, Preston Jacobs is the only other major ASOIAF TH-camr who’s talked about them so it’d be really neat if some of our other faves could get in on the acthon too.
I’ve only ever read this and Feast in the boiled leather order. I can’t imagine breaking them up now. It works so well as one book though it’d be huge.
I would say Alexander's cutting of the Gordian knot was simple, elegant, and brutal. An obvious metaphor for how he attempted to conquer Asia. Not to put it in a negative light, I do admire his accomplishments similar to the conquistadors.
I always read the Gordian knot in a negative light, as if it was highlighting how Alexander was headstrong and egotistical: Of course people have thought about cutting the rope but they didn't because it would violate the spirit of the trial. People understood that it would take patience, diligence, and cunning to untie such a complicated knot, someone with those qualities would make a good leader. Whereas here comes this young, brash, foreigner who doesn't understand the true meaning of the trial and he just cuts it and seizes power as he always does. Alexander has dropped significantly in my favor as I've learned more and more about history.
@@kristiannicholson5893 if he were only headstrong and egotistical his men wouldnt have followed him all across Asia. It does reflect those things as well but I'd argue it also shows his boldness, his bravery, and his confidence in himself and his men. He risked his life fighting men mounted on elephants throwing spears and shooting arrows at him and his men. And after all that he was loyal enough to turn back for his men's asking because he loved them. They were his brothers. He was only in his 20s and died at 32. Who knows what else he couldve accomplished if he hadnt met an early end (probably from poison). Most of the people he conquered prefered his rule over that of the people he routed out. You can't look at these things through a strictly negative lense. They dont call him Alexander the Great because a bunch of racist white men post humously wrote about some guy that tried to conquer Asia. You cant judge men of history by todays standards and get as accurate a picture as you would if you try to look at it through the eyes of the people of the time. For conquerors he's a pretty good guy. Not a tyrant like many are.
I can understand that Winds is taking so long but GRRM could at least drop us another sample chapter or two. It's been so long. But anyways, great video.
Good video! I think Dance has both good beginning and middle, but the lack of endind really makes Dance feel unfinished. With proper ending could be even the strongest book in the series. The North in the book is one of best strytelling from GRRM. And Dance has so many details, like three delicious pies served by Wyman Manderly.
I have the feeling that it's mainly Jorah Mormont that has him stuck. All the other characters are moving towards a certain climax, but Jorah Mormont just went on a whole new adventure on the wrong side of the siege that suddenly is plagued by an illness. It's like he fell into a new series of books that no longer have anything to do with ASoIaF.
yeah seemingly total filler, its a waste of time. Could have been 1 chapter or he could have been some rando turning up and we only learn that he died offscreen from BAristan and him giving a few thoughts to that and then in later books it could come up with Dorn that Dany kinda just ditched him and threw him under the bus indirectly.
@@ChildOfTheFlower more like GRRM felt like writting that one week and his editor didnt have to balls to say: George its a nice idea but please keep it efficient
Man, I get pissed off when thinking about how it has been 12 years. GRRM should just admit he has no intention of finishing the books. Even with writers block, side projects, conventions, whatever, the amount of work one can do in 12 years is staggering. I could have written the bloody book by now.
Can't believe I first the series back in 2013. I think the fact he's adamant about finishing in two books despite all the plot threads and characters still around to deal with is going to bite him. I think that's why it's taking so long. Like imagine, Daenerys only getting to Westeros by the final book. How is he going to satisfyingly write her impact and relationships in a single book. Also we have the ice zombies to deal with. So where will the time come from to satisfyingly deal with them etc
Great video. I do disagree about Quentyn though. I personally consider that one of my favorite parts of the series. When I was reading his chapters, I loved how he was this kind of insecure guy who had the world upon his shoulders. And when it all falls apart at the end, sure it's a red herring, but it's brilliant how it kites that plot twist across the entire book. One of the best parts of Dance for me, and you know there will be repercussions to his death in the next book (if it comes out).
While watching this video, I realized that I started watching the show and reading the books in 2017. It’s weird to think that was closer to the release of A Dance with Dragons than it is to now. However, although I read the first two books in 2017, I didn’t “finish” (since I guess it’s not finished) the series until last year so I really haven’t been waiting all that long for The Winds of Winter.
“…for a total of five point of view characters. Six if Quentyn is alive, which he isn’t.” He’s totally alive. I mean, come on! Being burned to a crisp is totally survivable in the days of leeching and poultices!
Its crazy because I finally read the books in 2019 and I the time I thought "damn im lucky, I at least dont have to wait long until the next book". Well, the gods like to teach cruel lesions, iv since read everything Martin has ever written and re-read all the ASOIAF books. Maybe will get WOW one day, maybe not. As for Dreams of Springs, you can go ahead and forget about that.
My favorite chapter might be the last Davos one where we see the schemes of Manderly (I remember scrolling through the book trying to find the next charter after that and to my dismay not finding another Davos POV)
I can't wait to watch this entire video. I'll come back and edit this comment if everything you said is wrong. 😊 Edit: You stated Quentyn's chapters were pointless and for the longest time I agreed with you, because he is dead. However, on a reread of ADWD, Barristan's chapter where he meets with Drinkwater and Yronwood got my attention. One of these two guys may play a key role going forward. My guess is Yronwood because Barristan remarks that he's made of "true steel." Quentyn's entire arc may have just been to get Yronwood (or Drinkwater) to Meereen to do something pivotal for the story. GRRM may have just used Quentyn to give the reader certain insights, sure, but who knows maybe his friends turn the tide somehow.
My biggest issue with Dance is that I'm here to watch people play, or be played, in the Westerosi Game of Thrones. I don't care who wins or who dies in the Game of Meereen.
Would it be possible the reason a lot of this mess in Meereen occurs because George scrapped the 5 year gap? The excuse for Cersei and Stannis being effected doesn't even hold much water as the gap would have worked into highlighting the war between Cersei and the Tyrells commutating to her arrest because Tommen was now becoming older to the point he didn't want her influence. The Stannis portion, could have showed much of what he doing in the North and building more alliances which would have been a headache for King's Landing while continuing the arc in the North.
There is something that always bug me out, why didn't doran sent a messenger to Daenerys the moment he learned the death of viserys rather than his own son? What does it change realistically? As far as I am concern, considering how fast barristan got to astapor, I think a messenger would arrive long before the marriage of daenerys and his son would not be dead most importantly. On a technical stand point grrm could have save a lot of time, really a lot considering what the death of quentyn could result to.
I read AFFC when it came out when I was a sophomore in high school my friend who had been reading them was absolutely livid about the pov split and thought it was super interesting so I gave em a read waiting 6 years for Dance and 12+ years Winds
ADWD is my favourite. I loved the character arcs of Tyrion, Jon, Danny and Reek/Theon, and the coalescing of perspectives in the North post-red wedding (Jon, Theon, Davos). The minor perspectives of Barristan and Victarion (my favourite POV character) are among my favourites in the entire series as well. Even Bran's chapters (finally) got me to care about his character again. In my experience, ADWD is the most diverse and colourful in comparison to a book like Feast, which had a far more limited scope. The biggest weakness for me were Quentyn's chapters. I didn't find his perspective interesting nor essential for the story in Mereen (the dragon's could've been freed by any other way). We also had Tyrion and Victarion already traveling to Mereen--did we really need Quentyn? His death scene was at least entertaining because we were finally able to see Rhaegal and Viserion again.
To the argument that GrrM is not our bitch, I present this analogy. A man tells you he has a product to sell you, but it will come in seven parts. He asks you invest in said product by paying for each part. Then, when he's 5 parts in, he disappears. He sells out his 5 parts and is richer than he's ever been. Every professional deadline he's agreed to goes on to be deliberately ignored and the 7 part investment is never made whole. He claims you will receive 2 more parts but time drags on with no evidence that he actually intends on finishing his product. In what scenario does he NOT owe you?
Garvin's right but in this case unfortunately it is not enforceable. Supposedly GOT earned GRRM a hundred and twenty million, even if that's wrong by a hundred mil what does a 76-year-old man do with that kind of money? Not a thing he doesn't want to.
I’m gonna say it because someone has to. If George can’t figure out a way out of the maraneese knot it’s bc he’s not trying or bc he’s not as good a writer as we all supposed.
I started reading AGOT back in 2019 and finished ADWD within six months of that same year. Ever since these are the only books I actually enjoy reading.
Honestly I can see George having a writer's block due to writing around his plan of the 5 year time gap. The story would have been a mess either way I'd having 5 years of nothing happening while everything is a mess or the young cast not being able to grow to their full potential like ned dayne Hopefully he can get the last of winds done so we can see his hard work come into reality
ASOIAF is what happens when a "garden writer" plants Kudzu. For all its flaws I'm ultimately mostly happy with the TV show cutting out all the stuff that doesn't directly add to the dragons/zombies plot.
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If the characters aged in real time between the books, Jon Snow would be in his forties now
How do you figure that? Jon was a old teen in the books, hes in his thirties at most.
@@CheeseCrumbs00 Wasn't he 16 in AGOT? Which I thought was published in 1994. So 2023-1994+16 = 45
@@jenniferpearce1052He was 14 in AGOT and in ADWD he was 16.
@@CheeseCrumbs00so like 41
@@fazediamond5671 based on his age in Dance he would be 28
12 years… anyone else just slowly move from binge watching one ASOIAF TH-camr to another in a hopeless merry-go-round just for those occasional hits of… idk whatever ASOIAF has me hooked on.
I feel incredibly understood right now lol
As Alt shift Xand Gladius put it, if you haven't jumped off the ASOIAF wagon by now, there really is no point in doing so.
I am the same, I wish I couldn't give a shot and just leave the whole series behind me as great books that will never be finished, but I'm in way too deep for way too long.
Same
Never had an original experience
There’s some to watch: Preston Jacobs, RedTeamReview, Grease Goblin, David Lightbringer.
One thing that Martin started doing in Feast that I really love, is using epithets instead of names for chapter titles. With these titles, the reader can get relevant information about the character’s attributes, skills, mental state, and/or goals.
Theon, for example, has the most amazing chapter titles in the series in ADWD; Reek, Reek, Reek, The Prince of Winterfell, The Turncloak, A Ghost in Winterfell, Theon.
I swear, just thinking about turning the page in ADWD to see the chapter titled “Theon”… gives me chills.
Love that as well. His chapters in Dance remind me of Raskolnikov in Crime And Punishment by Dostoevsky.
I think he had one of the best arcs in the show despite the fact that his final sacrifice was kind of pointless. Wouldve been better if he had double teamed the Night King with Arya and died in the process. Or better yet triple teamed him with Arya and Jon.
Can’t wait for Victarion’s next chapter to be titled “The Stump”
This
me personally i do not like it at all
And cross reading a feast and dance timelines
"It's hard to believe there was a point in time where A Song of Ice and Fire novels were actively being published"
Me too, man. Only been a fan since 2020, me too...
I've only been here since dec 2022, and I kinda feel bad for joining too early for winds
Yeah, Fan since September 2022
@@xtxygaming1943it’s probably good we got here late I’d go insane having to wait for 12 years
@@thegoat4238I got into it like six months before dance came out
August 2013. I remember feeling so frustrated when I finished Dance…
The most ideal and elegant solution to the Meeraneese Knot is to make Strong Belwas a new POV character to tell the entirety of it's resolution through
Strong Belwas make goooood story!
I think Tyrion will fulfill that along with Dany when she returns from Vaes Dathrak.
Or have the rest of the story told to him by his grandpa on his sickbed like in The Princess Bride.
Strong belwas being a pov would be a dream come true
its best if Danys party fucks off from Mareen as fast as possible.
I've finished ADWD last week.
I don't know how people managed waiting for more than a year for Winds. Let alone 12+ years....
Welcome to the Winter, my friend. You are a summer knight no longer; please, enjoy your suffering and stay with us as long as you like.
The theories are the cope
Oh you sweet summer child
Now re-read feast and dance at the same time. It lines up with each book in terms of things each location was hearing of the other. Plus it’s the way GRRM originally wrote it, so why not?
@@DarthPepe_1111 yes I think there's even a reading order for both books chapters
I also got into the series in 2016. I was like "damn, fans waiting 5 years and still no Winds? Glad I got in late1' And here I am! Waiting 7 years....
the more I reread the series the more I'm convinced Dany's plotline should've been it's own book.
I’d either say its own book, or paced similarly to how Martin originally envisioned (Drogon’s arrival being chapter 2).
Bran could also likely be removed entirely to it's own book for extra Narrative space as well.
@@Dragonshade64na, the whole narrative of the three eyed raven and his influence throughout the whole story is way too important to cut out
@@vin8754 But it hasn't done anything and saying his influence is important is only an excuse to not write the Bran plot as it is. So it could be taken out and then you write a Midnight Sun style story where we see Brans perspective and what it impacted once all the events have actually happened.
Although fueling the addiction peddling and keeping the series alive through it might be the most important thing Bran amounts to.
@@Dragonshade64 not done anything? first of all, its clear that the books are not finished yet, so you cant even say that. The three eyed raven is clearly trying to help stop the Others once they attack(which will 100% happen at some point in the next 2 books), and he is almost confirmed to have in some way influenced Euron Greyjoy in the past, who is currently on the verge of stealing Danys dragons. Bran is a vessel that George uses to give us insight into the more mystical elements of the books, to cut him out would be terrible
Asha's the Kings Prize chapter were Stannis is matching to winterfell was honestly really well done and deserved a mention. It really shows you why people love Stannis despite his stern personality his unyielding never give up attitude even when everything seems hopeless dude still matches on it's honestly inspiring plus Stannis was so funny in this chapter everything he said was really LOL my favorite being his "pray harder" line to one of the Florents😂😂😂😂Stannis like Cersie are unintentionally funny people
We get one of my favorite speeches in ASOIAF this chapter the saving Ned's little girl speech was honestly gold.... Really well done Martin
Stannis' best line imo is the one where he sends Gilly's incest child away because "this is not kings landing"
Oh my God, when did he tell someone to pray harder?? I love Stannis so much
His dry wit is one of His best qualities
The king stood outside his tent, staring into the nightfire. What does he see there? Victory? Doom? The face of his red and hungry god? His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close- cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course.
florents were asking for burnings@@j-rey-
I actually really enjoy Dany's arc in Meereen despite it moving at a snail's pace. Nothing and nobody are as they appear, and I really enjoy peeling the layers of the onion to riddle it all out. The best part is just when you've come up with a reasonable explanation for something, say the identity of the poisoner, you latch onto 2 or 3 other equally plausible explanations. I love that.
PS- totally agree that Ser Grandfather's 'Kingbreaker' chapter is one of the series' very best. It's my 2nd favorite after Arianne's 'Queenmaker' :) .
The lack of an ending is exactly my problem with this book, both dance and feast really suffer from a lack of major events that change the status quo or pay off any of the build up happening in both these books, like other than Jon dying hardly anything major happens and the things the characters do accomplish are mostly just footnotes in their stories or b tier goals, like JonCon’s taking of Griffin’s Roost has a lot of personal significance, but not much for the actual story, ending the book with taking storms end though, firmly establishing them in the stormlands would’ve been really significant and at least the battle of fire or ice should’ve taken place, Jamie’s story should’ve ended with meeting Stoneheart, not just on the way there with Brienne and Dany could’ve arrived in Vase Dothrak
Dance and Feast is the treat George gave himself: one book that is not whole(feast) and a book that has no ending(dance). Instead of choosing only one mistake, he opted to write a shitload of ironborn bullshit and make two mistakes. He's been suffering from his foolishness since.
It would have been a fine mid-series setup book...IF HE ACTUALLY PUT OUT ANOTHER BOOK PAYING IT OFF!
I was born a little after Feast released. I recently graduated high school. That is just insane.
That even makes ME feel old. I was born just after Storm.
Rereading this book is immensly important. So much setup and maneuvering is happening on page but is obscured by a seeming lull in action and very similar soundinng names that blend together in mereen, even george not so subtly through Archibald calling them all “Harzoo”. So much just slips through the cracks the first time reading or especially listening that I feel affected it’s perception. After rereading Feast and Dance I definitely appreciate them way more and notice new things every single time. Especially after getting into Dreamsongs to read the Thousand Worlds stories. Makes me appreciate Martin’s writing even more seeing how original and bold and experimental and emotionally evocative he is from the start of his career. And in my opinion in Dance it is a Master at work still trying new things and taking his magnum opus as far as it needs in order to perfect it. And if Winds ever comes out, people would surely look back more fondly on Dance.
Exactly. Imagine how much criticism aGoT and aCoK would get if aSoS never came out. With the resolutions in mind, you can reread the first two books and see that a lot of what seemed meandering or extraneous was actually foreshadowing or exposition for something only important 2 books later
I've been a fan since 2018 and I can't imagine a time when there was any chance of a new book
I watched about three seasons of the show before I started reading the series. I actually love both (up to an obvious point) but I was shocked that Victarion. Wasn’t included. What a great character.
Victarion's character is sort of merged into Euron in the show. The show does this with a few book characters, instead of including all 2-3 characters it will combine aspects of all their personalities into one.
Meereen is, in my opinion, the most interesting piece in the series. It is so good, in fact, that I almost feel as though he should have kept the five year gap and just made a Meereen + “Stirrings” book to fill said gap so that in winds/some other book before it Dany could be retooled (as it currently seems Dany will serve as at most a light tap and at worst a narrative parallel to the westerosi conflict.).
I don't think Mel was originally intended to be a POV. George has talked about how he gave her a chapter in Dance largely because he felt her motivations were misunderstood
Pretty sure JonCon was the og?
George is a criminal for teasing us with only one amazing mel chapter for 12 years
I would honesty have no problem with the winds of winter just beginning with Dany flying towards Westeros and Barristan, Jorah and Tyrion on a boat about to arrive at Westeros and we never have to hear of anything about Mereen again.
Jorah turns to Tyrion "man i can't believe rocks fell on the entire country." "yeah kinda sucks" Tyrion agrees..... "so anyway have i mentioned how much i hate my sister?"
Well, Meereen is not only about these characters. Victarion, Marwyn are coming to Daenerys. And maybe Euron/Daario reveal?
I just read through the boiled leather chronological order of Feast and Dance last year for the first time and it became so much clearer to me with what GRRM was going for, I adore all 5 books.
I’ve always wanted to do that, but never have!
@@QuinnTheGM it is well worth it I assure you!
A fact people won't usually mention when they complain about waiting is that no one expected Game of Thrones to become the biggest show of all time.
George suddenly went from having all the time in the world to write to having almost no days off for 4 years.
Then he cowrote a world book and Fire and Blood. He also has signed off and is overseeing potentially 8 spin off shows as well as the 2nd half of Fire and Blood.
Dance was my favorite book of the series. Although i have yet to reread them. For me the meh chapters were spaced out enough in between some incredible chapters.
Every Greyjoy kills it, Jon and Dany having to rule was a really great parallel.
Dany in Mereen definitely had it's slower moments, but i always think back the George's quote of, "What is Aragorn's tax plan?"
That is the reality of being a Queen, of being a new ruler in a foreign land.
Its Dany's real big test for her dreams and goals. When she gets to Westeros, even if she becomes Queen, she will still be a new ruler in foreign land with conspiracies everywhere
How on Earth did he go to no days off for four years? He wrote what, an episode per season? Which I don't think anyone could force him to do, as no one held him at gunpoint making him write for the world book and F&B.
@@smarttravel3144 Yup, GRRM found himself in another series of knots after all the extra threads he created in Dance on top of everything else from the first 4 books. He clearly got stuck writing Dance years ago and has found other things to distract him.
The expanse obviously wasn’t nearly as popular as game of thrones but those authors were still writing the books while working on the show and they didn’t have a problem finishing. Martin made the story too complicated and now can’t figure out how to bring everyone together
I saw that little note: Victarion indeed is the Stump that was promised. All who deny this are just too smart to understand; like George said, “Victarion is the key to all of this, if we get him working, because he’s dumber than any character we’ve had before.”
He will end not writing that and being as disappointing as George Lucas not going with Darth JarJar.
@@fakeplaystore7991
97 year old GRRM after publishing Dream of Spring: “I may have gone too far in a few places…”
Fantastic video. Not sure about the Theon bit tho
So Varys is definitely a College of Whispers Bard/Mastermind Rogue multiclass, yeah?
Great job on the video! I’m actually doing a combined re-read of Feast and Dance right now, so this video was a really fun watch.
Honestly I’d say Assassin for his Rogue subclass. It’s a TERRIBLE subclass mechanically but they get a ton of stuff baked-in for assuming and creating false identities, which we know he loves to do.
@@QuinnTheGM Man, I forgot about the assassin, that works so much better! I did like the languages and reading other people stuff from mastermind, but there’s no beating the assassin for disguises.
hes the basic thief class as shown in his backstory of just burglaring around so that his hero friend can "return" the loot for payment.
Great video! Love the content. Honestly, I think the 5th book was largely what inspired me to try writing myself. Like Fantasy Haven, I aspire to be able to write a story where the sort of situation in Winterfell is possible. Dripping with intrigue, espionage, and double entendres amongst the characters and the alliances. It's mindblowing when you really start putting the pieces together, like the Frey Pies moment for example.
First time I heard George RR Martin's name was in 1973 at a comic book store in Arlington TX. Sandkings made me a fan in 1979 when it appeared Omni magazine. I picked the first paperback edition of A Game of Thrones off the shelf in 1997 cynically thinking 'GRRM's jumping on Robert Jordan's bandwagon.' When I started reading I discovered it different than
Wheel of Time, more medieval than fantasy. I read a few chapters after Bran suffered a long fall and stopped reading. Knowing I wouldn't remember a thing by the time the next book
came out I decided to read the series in one long read when when it was done, it was only going to be a trilogy, right? Dutifully I bought each one as soon as I saw it, I have a lovely set
of first edition paperbacks, only the fifth has HBO's logo on it. I avoided listening to people talking about the TV show at work. In 2019 I finally caved and read the books watching the
show at the same time. Now I'm waiting like everyone else. George told the Australians a few years ago they could lock him in a room and force him to finish the series but the fools
let him out of the country!
I can't wait to read The Winds of Winter in the summer of 2035.
The Meereenes Knot is likely to become a writers turn of phase for dealing with an impossible plot stall; like Chekhov's [instert here] became a term for a plot device.
If I ever see GRRM in the street I'm gonna shake his hand to show my gratitude but then I'm throwing hands.
You're gonna beat up a 75 year old man? 💀
@@concept5631 Not because I want to, but it is what honor dictates.
I too began reading the books in 2016. I remember at the time thinking about how I had to breeze through them as George probably would've released Winds that year or the following 😅
Aren’t frogs just unkissed princes?
ADWD on its own merits is such a fantastic book. As time goes on, I love it more and more and I think should WoW deliver on some key payoffs, the fanbase will only see ADWD in a far kinder light. That’s a pretty big if though….
@Quinn the GM, I understand the love of this world from the fandom, and the new and insightful content you produce, big applause. But how anyone that can let your crossbow sneak attack damage go unnoticed, unmentioned, and probably misunderstood, is beyond me. I see you, I see your background in D&D, I appreciate you.
This is the content to focus on. The lit crits and philosophy drones are where you want to be
i’m a big fan of your work quinn, keep up the good work bro
I love your analysis videos, Theories and theory videos about asoiaf are great but Analysis of this stuff and analysis of the themes of each characters story is a much more unique video idea, hope you make more theme and analysis based videos in the future
it's my favorite book in the series by FAR! It's the only book I've ever finished reading and restarted right away
2016? Oh my sweet summer child! Love seeing late comers game the system and make a buck out of it too, rubs the pretentious 90s forebears the wrong way and Im here for it.
*It's clear to me that GRRM has created such a huge world with so many stories, plots, characters and mysteries that now he doesn't know how to finish his work, as it has become extremely complex. Sadly, we will never have the pleasure of reading the end of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's like he fed his child so much and now his child has become a monster. I don't even feel like rereading the books, because it's like starting to watch a canceled series. Why would you follow an endless story?*
Awesome video Quinn! Keep up the great work ! 💥
I would agree with the theon section. The last sentance from him in the asha chapter probably had the largest emotional impact of anything in this series for me.
"Your name. You *have* to rememeber your name"
I can’t understand the heat George gets. He is writing such a massive story. This is why we love the story. It’s so big and complex. It’s going to take a lot of work to finish it. George will finish it and it will be amazing.
I can. Words are Wind, and George has made a lot of promises he didn't keep. I agree we shouldn't feel entitled, but he has said so many times that the books were just around the corner, and eventually the TV show surpassed him and ruined revelations that people have been waiting for over 2 decades!!!
So i can totally understand people being angry at him.
No he wont
He gets the heat because, had he been writing even 100 (one hundred) words a day all this time, which would have taken him let's say half an hour--so plenty of free time left--he would have had enough material for a aDwD-sized book by now.
Fully agree with the nitpick corner! It felt so weird pacing-wise
Great video, thanks for that! Still waiting, since 2014, fingers crossed we will get another book soonish! :D
What a great video. Love this type of discussion
Hey Quinn, why didn't you do a retrospective for GoT, SoS and A Feast for Crows?
I never conciously thought about it but Ser Arlan is From Pennytree and Dunk doesn't know where it is, as of yet. but for some reason that's also where Jaime and Brienne reunite. Brienne being descendant from Dunk, I only assume this may be important somehow.
Of course someone thought of cutting the gordian knot. Alexander was just the guy who had the guts to do it
I work in publishing and I was told (I forget by whom now so that's what makes this sketchy) that ADWD was edited in multiple parts. Meaning then did edits, copyedits, proofreading and design on one part and then that was locked, before the next part went through all that. I remember it because I thought, "Oh that's why some of the chapters feel so repetitive." It's more like a serialized story (Dickens' David Copperfield is a good example because it was published in newspapers not a novel format, so every few chapters he has to remind you who some characters are). This was done so that they only had a chunk to edit once he announced he was "finished" so it could be published as soon as possible. I'd love to know if anyone else has heard this. I could have been fed bad information. I totally agree some chapters should have been cut but if it was edited this way then it would've been costly to go back.
That’s such an interesting perspective, thank you for sharing! Interesting that it came in batches. If only there were any publishing insight for Winds out there 👀
You just made me notice that it was 12 years. Hell I'm getting old.
I think Jon Con was the originally planned new pov, and mel was added because a new pov char was needed at the wall after jons death.
Love your content man thanks for entertaining us!!
Damn George now I'm really sad. I wish we at least had Winds so we could theorize, bicker, and reread the whole series again for the next 5 or 6 years (hopefully) until Dream comes out lol. So sad.
i just finished the fifth book for the first time (i had read the first 4 earlier and then taken too long in between reading the 4th and 5th that i had to read them all again) and omfg the barristan chapter near the end was a true masterpiece. it was such a thrill and reminded me of all the best parts about tyrions chapters in book 2. these are the plot lines that made me absolutely fall in love with this world and martins writing style.
Great video Quinn! You know, listening to you and other ASOIAF enthusiasts keeps making me think that the next stage in discussion/theorising about aspects of the series, might be served by more direct interaction between people like you, Preston Jacobs, Alt Shift X etc. For example - we all know why Preston is determined that Quentyn is Alive - and why others balk at the idea, but I can't help but wonder at what interesting synthesis might be born from two well-read theorists getting together to present, debate and discuss ideas like that together. We've got some collabs - but little more from what I've seen so far.
I like your videos on asoif, they bring me much entertainment. Much thanks
"Run!"
"For the Occlusion!"
"Run for your lives!"
Next book will be a compilation of several battles
So agreed with you for the majority of your takes in the video!!!
Great video. Despite its flaws it’s still my favorite book.
Would love to see these retrospectives on the other books!
Dissapointed the special guest was not George RR Martin himself smh
Maybe next year
Great job! I’d LOVE to get a video like this in all the other books. And, if you’d be open to it, I’m sure I’m not the only one who would like to hear you cover the wide swathe of Martins other works. As far as I know, Preston Jacobs is the only other major ASOIAF TH-camr who’s talked about them so it’d be really neat if some of our other faves could get in on the acthon too.
While I love each book so much, I think over time my love of dance has gone down and my love of feast has gone up.
I loved this book - defo my second favourite in the series after ASOS. Favourite characters and super exciting development!
I’ve only ever read this and Feast in the boiled leather order. I can’t imagine breaking them up now. It works so well as one book though it’d be huge.
Boiled leather order?
I would say Alexander's cutting of the Gordian knot was simple, elegant, and brutal. An obvious metaphor for how he attempted to conquer Asia. Not to put it in a negative light, I do admire his accomplishments similar to the conquistadors.
I always read the Gordian knot in a negative light, as if it was highlighting how Alexander was headstrong and egotistical: Of course people have thought about cutting the rope but they didn't because it would violate the spirit of the trial. People understood that it would take patience, diligence, and cunning to untie such a complicated knot, someone with those qualities would make a good leader. Whereas here comes this young, brash, foreigner who doesn't understand the true meaning of the trial and he just cuts it and seizes power as he always does. Alexander has dropped significantly in my favor as I've learned more and more about history.
@@kristiannicholson5893 its a man thing.
@@kristiannicholson5893 if he were only headstrong and egotistical his men wouldnt have followed him all across Asia. It does reflect those things as well but I'd argue it also shows his boldness, his bravery, and his confidence in himself and his men. He risked his life fighting men mounted on elephants throwing spears and shooting arrows at him and his men. And after all that he was loyal enough to turn back for his men's asking because he loved them. They were his brothers.
He was only in his 20s and died at 32. Who knows what else he couldve accomplished if he hadnt met an early end (probably from poison). Most of the people he conquered prefered his rule over that of the people he routed out.
You can't look at these things through a strictly negative lense. They dont call him Alexander the Great because a bunch of racist white men post humously wrote about some guy that tried to conquer Asia. You cant judge men of history by todays standards and get as accurate a picture as you would if you try to look at it through the eyes of the people of the time. For conquerors he's a pretty good guy. Not a tyrant like many are.
I can understand that Winds is taking so long but GRRM could at least drop us another sample chapter or two. It's been so long. But anyways, great video.
I fully believe he ran out of them back in 2016.
The more he releases the less he can change his mind if he comes to another knot
My leige, you have returned! I hope journey fared well 🤣 Welcome back.
I just want Quentyn to be alive so it's canon for me - cause let's be honest, TWOW won't be released
Quentin is alive in the Sweetrobin version. Which is the only version of TWOW we will get at this point barring several real world catastrophies.
Good video! I think Dance has both good beginning and middle, but the lack of endind really makes Dance feel unfinished. With proper ending could be even the strongest book in the series. The North in the book is one of best strytelling from GRRM. And Dance has so many details, like three delicious pies served by Wyman Manderly.
I have the feeling that it's mainly Jorah Mormont that has him stuck. All the other characters are moving towards a certain climax, but Jorah Mormont just went on a whole new adventure on the wrong side of the siege that suddenly is plagued by an illness. It's like he fell into a new series of books that no longer have anything to do with ASoIaF.
Quentyn Martel’s chapters are like the opposite of Brienne’s. I liked them the first time reading it, but after that I usually want to skip them
I too find them exhausting, good riddance he's gone
yeah seemingly total filler, its a waste of time. Could have been 1 chapter or he could have been some rando turning up and we only learn that he died offscreen from BAristan and him giving a few thoughts to that and then in later books it could come up with Dorn that Dany kinda just ditched him and threw him under the bus indirectly.
But we need the subversion of The Hero's Journey.
@@ChildOfTheFlower more like GRRM felt like writting that one week and his editor didnt have to balls to say: George its a nice idea but please keep it efficient
I have finished rereading it circa 2-3 months ago... Now I want to reread it again😅
Man, I get pissed off when thinking about how it has been 12 years. GRRM should just admit he has no intention of finishing the books. Even with writers block, side projects, conventions, whatever, the amount of work one can do in 12 years is staggering. I could have written the bloody book by now.
Can't believe I first the series back in 2013. I think the fact he's adamant about finishing in two books despite all the plot threads and characters still around to deal with is going to bite him. I think that's why it's taking so long. Like imagine, Daenerys only getting to Westeros by the final book. How is he going to satisfyingly write her impact and relationships in a single book. Also we have the ice zombies to deal with. So where will the time come from to satisfyingly deal with them etc
Almost done with ACOK reread now, looking forward to getting to Dance again.
> book is called Dance of Dragons
> hype it up as second Targ-on-Targ war
> Dance of Dragons II doesn't happen
Um, actually, the book is called *A* Dance With Dragons.
Great video. I do disagree about Quentyn though. I personally consider that one of my favorite parts of the series. When I was reading his chapters, I loved how he was this kind of insecure guy who had the world upon his shoulders. And when it all falls apart at the end, sure it's a red herring, but it's brilliant how it kites that plot twist across the entire book. One of the best parts of Dance for me, and you know there will be repercussions to his death in the next book (if it comes out).
just snipping by and not watching fully because i am in the third book now…bef..before the re..red wedding
While watching this video, I realized that I started watching the show and reading the books in 2017. It’s weird to think that was closer to the release of A Dance with Dragons than it is to now. However, although I read the first two books in 2017, I didn’t “finish” (since I guess it’s not finished) the series until last year so I really haven’t been waiting all that long for The Winds of Winter.
“…for a total of five point of view characters. Six if Quentyn is alive, which he isn’t.”
He’s totally alive. I mean, come on! Being burned to a crisp is totally survivable in the days of leeching and poultices!
I want a video like this for every single book
I’d love to make them for every book! I’d have vague ideas in mind for the structure of every book but Clash.
Its crazy because I finally read the books in 2019 and I the time I thought "damn im lucky, I at least dont have to wait long until the next book". Well, the gods like to teach cruel lesions, iv since read everything Martin has ever written and re-read all the ASOIAF books. Maybe will get WOW one day, maybe not. As for Dreams of Springs, you can go ahead and forget about that.
My favorite chapter might be the last Davos one where we see the schemes of Manderly (I remember scrolling through the book trying to find the next charter after that and to my dismay not finding another Davos POV)
how about Jamie just disappearing into the forest on a random tuesday never to be seen again...😭
I always loved the book
I can't wait to watch this entire video. I'll come back and edit this comment if everything you said is wrong. 😊
Edit: You stated Quentyn's chapters were pointless and for the longest time I agreed with you, because he is dead. However, on a reread of ADWD, Barristan's chapter where he meets with Drinkwater and Yronwood got my attention. One of these two guys may play a key role going forward. My guess is Yronwood because Barristan remarks that he's made of "true steel." Quentyn's entire arc may have just been to get Yronwood (or Drinkwater) to Meereen to do something pivotal for the story. GRRM may have just used Quentyn to give the reader certain insights, sure, but who knows maybe his friends turn the tide somehow.
6:24 Jon Con was the OG POV his arc is too connected with the series to be a coincidence
My biggest issue with Dance is that I'm here to watch people play, or be played, in the Westerosi Game of Thrones. I don't care who wins or who dies in the Game of Meereen.
Would it be possible the reason a lot of this mess in Meereen occurs because George scrapped the 5 year gap?
The excuse for Cersei and Stannis being effected doesn't even hold much water as the gap would have worked into highlighting the war between Cersei and the Tyrells commutating to her arrest because Tommen was now becoming older to the point he didn't want her influence. The Stannis portion, could have showed much of what he doing in the North and building more alliances which would have been a headache for King's Landing while continuing the arc in the North.
Quentyn is ALIVE.
There is something that always bug me out, why didn't doran sent a messenger to Daenerys the moment he learned the death of viserys rather than his own son? What does it change realistically? As far as I am concern, considering how fast barristan got to astapor, I think a messenger would arrive long before the marriage of daenerys and his son would not be dead most importantly. On a technical stand point grrm could have save a lot of time, really a lot considering what the death of quentyn could result to.
I read AFFC when it came out when I was a sophomore in high school my friend who had been reading them was absolutely livid about the pov split and thought it was super interesting so I gave em a read waiting 6 years for Dance and 12+ years Winds
ADWD is my favourite. I loved the character arcs of Tyrion, Jon, Danny and Reek/Theon, and the coalescing of perspectives in the North post-red wedding (Jon, Theon, Davos). The minor perspectives of Barristan and Victarion (my favourite POV character) are among my favourites in the entire series as well. Even Bran's chapters (finally) got me to care about his character again. In my experience, ADWD is the most diverse and colourful in comparison to a book like Feast, which had a far more limited scope.
The biggest weakness for me were Quentyn's chapters. I didn't find his perspective interesting nor essential for the story in Mereen (the dragon's could've been freed by any other way). We also had Tyrion and Victarion already traveling to Mereen--did we really need Quentyn? His death scene was at least entertaining because we were finally able to see Rhaegal and Viserion again.
To the argument that GrrM is not our bitch, I present this analogy. A man tells you he has a product to sell you, but it will come in seven parts. He asks you invest in said product by paying for each part. Then, when he's 5 parts in, he disappears. He sells out his 5 parts and is richer than he's ever been. Every professional deadline he's agreed to goes on to be deliberately ignored and the 7 part investment is never made whole. He claims you will receive 2 more parts but time drags on with no evidence that he actually intends on finishing his product. In what scenario does he NOT owe you?
This is such a sad and sterile way to look at art.
Garvin's right but in this case unfortunately it is not enforceable. Supposedly GOT earned GRRM a hundred and twenty million,
even if that's wrong by a hundred mil what does a 76-year-old man do with that kind of money? Not a thing he doesn't want to.
I’m gonna say it because someone has to. If George can’t figure out a way out of the maraneese knot it’s bc he’s not trying or bc he’s not as good a writer as we all supposed.
I did my waiting! Twelve years of it! In ADWD!
Hope you all get the reference
My fellow azkaban inmate!
I started reading AGOT back in 2019 and finished ADWD within six months of that same year. Ever since these are the only books I actually enjoy reading.
love your work man
Honestly I can see George having a writer's block due to writing around his plan of the 5 year time gap. The story would have been a mess either way I'd having 5 years of nothing happening while everything is a mess or the young cast not being able to grow to their full potential like ned dayne
Hopefully he can get the last of winds done so we can see his hard work come into reality
I started reading this series right after book 3 came out
ASOIAF is what happens when a "garden writer" plants Kudzu. For all its flaws I'm ultimately mostly happy with the TV show cutting out all the stuff that doesn't directly add to the dragons/zombies plot.