Skip to 37:52 for the veganism discussion to begin. Thanks to Matt for taking the time to do this. All relevant links are in the description. EDIT: I've seen a lot of debate about this in the comments already: yes, I'm currently vegan.
This looks interesting, but you should have left that early question to "why well being"? When you throw out alternatives like "virtuousness" you are making something of a non-sequitur. If a person is virtuous, then they are one who behaves morally - it is a quality dependent upon whatever is deemed moral. Not a big critique - just a tip. Keep the questions short, concise, and to the point and you can avoid mistakes that with a less friendly interviewee could derail the whole thing.
Hey Cosmic, how do I get a hold of you for having a discussion on veganism? I'm a descriptive subjectivist value pluralist and I've been studying the topic of veganism for the past year. I'd love to just have a discussion about Rawls and notable differences and the way morality could and does operate. Please send me a message!
"we don't know the extent of how sentient animals are or what their pain thresholds are, so.." Never understood this argument. If that were the case, then surely what logically follows is that animals should at least be given the benefit of the doubt, instead of sentenced to a life of torture and slaughter.
Exactly. In addition, isn't there enough evidence to warrant their pain thresholds are similar? We're referring to animals with brains, a central nervous systems, we express fear and pain in similar manners & will avoid discomfort & known threats to our well being. That's *more* than enough to extend the benefit of the doubt.
@@SilenceDogwood. That's one that Christian apologists use to make themselves feel better about Matt's position on religion/theism being more reasonable than theirs. No-one has ever been able to explain to me what a "Dillahunty Dodge" is.
@@SilenceDogwood. Non-sequitur-ception. The question itself is a non-sequitur, and if you unpack that question, it also relies on a non-sequitur. It's sort-of like asking "if Johnny has 5 apples and Jane has 4 apples, how many oranges does Paul have?"
@@SilenceDogwood. As much as the natural laws and desired amount of chucking allowed. Your question is incomplete. I need to know the body weight of this woodchuck, woodchucking abilities, stamina, ambient temperature, position of the sun, and your bank account information. Without all of that, its unknowable
Hi Alex, doubt you'll see this but I want to post it anyway. This specific video convinced me to go vegan. It's not something that I had ever given serious thought to until you brought it to my attention and I just want to thank you for being so vocal and getting the word out there.
It convinced me not to do so as Matt has a healthy skin color and Alex looks more like a walking corpse. Something very common among vegans as they lack some needed nutrient.
@@ForOdinAndAsgard lol, that is completely bullshit. Vegans are just as healthy as anybody else. Your "he looks like a walking corpse" is absolute nonsense too, alex loos totally fine here as well as in EVERY OTHER VIDEO where he is STILL vegan
I was born and raised as a Muslim but cosmicsceptic has become my favourite. He has really opened my eyes on alot of issues, and his channel has been incredibly helpful.
As a meat eater myself (due to numerous practical reasons) i can never defend eating meat ethically. I will however continue to decrease my meat consumption and hopefully become a vegan... It's a process. Cheers
Good on you. Vegans have no problem with meat eaters who have the strength of character to admit it is a moral obligation. There are paths to take and different people have different will power. I'd suggest getting yourselves emersed in 'earthlings' 'land of hope and glory' and 'dominion'. That should take you over the threshold and hopefully you recognise it to be morally abhorrent and never want to go back.
When asked why I'm vegan I recite my five reasons and always make sure to include the nuance of the one that covers the immorality, how it's immoral as long as the person has the option to not eat meat AND they know they have the option. Not having the option may include various rare health reasons or lack of availability of non-animal items economically but for most these two things aren't a problem unless they're only eating the expensive prepared foods and never cooking their food from scratch. I live in Vancouver, Washington which seems like a typical west coast American city and the vegan diet is cheaper. I splurge on the Beyond Meat stuff to satisfy a craving now and then but it's not necessary. There's a gray area of whether the person doesn't know better because maybe they have been too lazy to find out the truths of their preconceived notions (economics, nutrition, difficulty), and because having a internet available to so many these days it's a stretch for many to make an excuse to not uncover the truth that vegan may in fact be an option for them. It's a touchy subject if they claim a rare medical reason why they can't because they may want to really bad and feel horrible that they can't. It comes down to their due diligence. What if they were just doing the diet wrong and think they have a medical out? Hard to say unless you're that person.
Do more then think about it. Do more research in terms of ethics, health and environment. I love meat, believe me I still love the taste (this didn't change after going vegan) but I found it illogical to care about animals and eat them at the same time. I searched for reasons to keep my kebabs and ribs but I haven't found them so I had to go vegan. Good luck on your search friend.
Alex doesn’t have a good argument against non factory farmed meat. He incessantly tried to frame a dichotomy between factory farming and veganism. This was clearly an issue that Matt wasn’t prepared to debate on because Alex’s arguments have gaping holes in them.
@@Journey_of_Abundance Actually it's impossible to raise the majority of animals in non-factory farm settings and feed all the people who want to munch on their flesh, because we simply do not have enough land nor resources to raise these animals with anything approaching humane methods. Also if your pet dog was raised with love and plenty of good food and exercise, is it then right to round up these dogs in a death truck where they will be hung up upside down and have their throat slit by the thousands? "Non factory farmed meat" DOES NOT MEANT HORRENDOUS CRUELTY FREE - and even in so -called non factory farms animals are not given adequate medical care bc their worth is only as much as the weight of their flesh and any vet bills will eat into the "profit". And if you think about it WHY IS AN ANIMAL'S LIFE WORTH LESS THAN YOUR TASTE HABIT? If there is NO NEED for you to round them up and butcher them mercilessly, why would you insist on doing it ?
Allusive Ashly why are you just making that up? There is no data to support the idea we can’t feed everyone non factory farmed meat. However, there is data to support the fact we can feed everyone non factory farmed meat
Interesant raising animals in the same way they live in the wild is absolutely good for the environment. Why do you mercilessly allow animals to be killed for your plant food?
44:00 I can never believe when people make this claim. The dog doesn't have any intristic moral worth? So beating up a stray dog is just as morally neutral as kicking a rock down the road. Does anyone honestly believe this?
I think its an attempt to reconcile morality with legal norms. By saying the problem with hurting a dog is upsetting the owners (same argument is made with killing a mentally disabled child), you keep the legal norm that its not animal suffering that is illegal, but messing with humans property. If you grant that dogs have an independent moral worth, then it would have to be wrong to hurt them even if they didn't have an owner, but that would also make it illegal to kill other animals that were of similar level of sentience to dogs (so pigs, cows, sheep). It's mainly a problem of people not being able to live with the dissonance of "yes it is wrong but I don't care enough to sacrifice taste and convenience". If you see how meat eaters react to abuse of pet animals its very clear they instinctively recognize the moral worth of other animals they're just trying to build a moral framework that somehow allows for the meat industry at the same time.
these are becoming my favorite debates/discussions because it really shows how otherwise intelligent people can fall back of completely unsound arguments when challenged on their own morality. when it's no longer hypotheticals or thought experiments, some people just buckle.
What an amazing conversation!! Thank you for having such and open and non judgmental conversation with Matt. This is the kind of conversation that changes minds respectfully. Also thank you to Matt for being brave enough to have this conversation publicly for others to learn aswell.
@vegass04 I guess we should be thankful he saved his tantrum for twitter months after this conversation. I suppose he got fed up with his views being challenged.
I'm so excited about this. I found CosmicSkeptic back in 2016 when I was converting to veganism and loved him so much immediately. I remember thinking how awesome it was that there was a calm, kind, and reasonable atheist out there on the internet. (compared to the likes of AIU) And I remember wishing he could be that kind of voice for veganism as well. Here we are now. Thank you so much for what you do Alex!
Alexa D - Don’t you just love how that all works out? 😃 I’m still hoping to see the day Matt goes vegan. I’ve been envisioning it for years, especially being that he’s such a brilliant thinker, and he can help inspire soooo many people in the atheist/ skeptics community 😍
@Zachary Stewart are you saying you are for animal cruelty and that for your taste habits you will continue to pay to torture innocent animals until they die terrified and enduring unwatchable violence because cruelty is good and "unemotional"? Seems like snacking your lips eating animal flesh is nothing but emotion driven to me.
@@AV57 Everything that exists is an "it" by virtue of being an object. I'm not trying to demean the poor things, especially being they're my favorite animal, they get enough crap when they're thrown in frying pans.
Wujeeta, I think that one of the best ways to promote animal rights is to cease referring to them as “it” or “things.” I understand you don’t mean any harm by using those labels, but it does feed into the slave mentality that many animals suffer under.
@@alonsohdzf I thought it was a really good debate, very informative.... Now I'm off to have me a thick juicy ribeye steak with a side of chicken livers.... I love my eat out days
Hopefully this open the door for you to realize he has more than one area of weak argument. He is absolutely terrible on metaphysics. See David Bentley Hart for more.
In all honesty, there is not a single reasonable argument against ethical veganism. This is coming from someone who eats meat. Meat eaters just cant admit to themselves that what they're doing is wrong, but admitting you're doing something wrong is the first step. It's essentially taking something you've done forever, and forming your arguments to fit it, rather than changing your actions to fit the arguments that actually make sense
Rage CL i think (almost) everyone in their heart is an ethical vegan. We don’t like to see animals suffer , especially the animals that we adore like pets.Unfortunately, most people don’t act on it.
Agreed mostly. Although I will admit that eating meat is wrong. At the end of the day I just do not care. I don't mind being labeled a moral I don't mind being wrong but I enjoy eating meat and I will never stop. If someone can be vegan, that's great for them but that will never be me. I said before I can eat six meals a day with 50 grams of fat 150 carbs very low sodium almost no sugar 250 grams of protein for $100 a month. I almost primarily eat lean chicken and other lean meat. I almost never eat red meat and my cholesterol and blood pressure are amazing. If I found out tomorrow that eating meat was going to shave 10 years off of my life I would continue to do it. I can acknowledge that it's wrong but it makes me happy and I love it and I will never stop.
@@thickerconstrictor9037 It's just silly. Is hitting a rock wrong? Is hitting a computer wrong? Is hitting a biological computer wrong? you'd do well to incorporate red meat and what not. Dietary cholesterol is not bad for you and higher levels of cholesterol is a marker for better health in old people actually. It's another one of those misunderstood blood markers that can not be looked at by itself. Just don't eat shitty plants and sugar when eating the meat.
Wow what a pleasant suprise. I thought I was one of few vegan atheists watching this channel but as I look through the comments I see that tons of people are! Hell yeah!
How wonderful to see two people having a discussion where they are genuinely trying to understand each other, learning and reviewing their own point of view. All conversation should be like this. Thank you.
"if you don't like factory farms, why do you eat their meat?" "Who says I do?" "Idk, do you?" "Yes." I'm paraphrasing, but it absolutely was that ridiculous.
There is no moral dilemma.It is the moral choice to eat meat as it causes less animal suffering. A person can sustain him self with an animal a year. A Vegan kills hundreds of animals every year to sustain himself through the use of pesticides and fertilizers. Millions of living things if you include the insects.
@Maquiavel Arturiano hay doesn't need pesticides, it is fruits weed and vegetables destined for human consumption that need them, and mainly for aesthetic reasons
It's fun watching someone who is known for combating bad arguments make similarly bad arguments and know he is doing it. The human mind is feeble. Stay humble, y'all.
Yes, the same aspect of the human brain that can both condemn slavery but then fights to justify its presence in their bible is how he approaches some of the veganism topics that come up.
Why does it always seem like skeptics are more likely to use skepticism to justify personal preferences? Matt is great at being skeptical of the religious beliefs of others, but when it comes to his position on veganism he can't be bothered to do the intellectual groundwork because some people hurt his feelings in the past...
Ouch. Just got to the part where Matt calls the government banning meat a "massive disruption" and Alex responds "just like the 13th amendment"... crickets...
Matt Bradley I think Matt is just uninformed. I think if he actually was interested in the issue he would come around. Many of his argument I think he would refute himself if he did more research. Alex is savage. I personally don’t like slavery comparisons, but the 13th amendment line was just so well placed 😆.
Matt doesn’t seem to understand his own views on this. I’m tempted to say that he simply enjoys the convenience of eating meat, and is content to allow his cognitive dissonance to continue in order to protect that convenience.
Been watching and waiting for this. Loved your appearance with Matt and Steve on the Atheist Experience. Super appreciate your input and perspective Alex - cheers
Glad to see you discussing this topic Alex. Matt is awesome but I think he needs to research this topic further. Looking forward to the discussion with Earthling Ed!
Hey are you the guy that got Unnatural Vegan pregnant? I'm sorry , I dont why but I've always that that it was you. She keeps her private life a secret. I'm sure you wouldn't tell even if it was you but I thought I'd ask anyway.😁
@@melissasahagun5359 since I've never met Unnatural Vegan in real life, that would be quite the achievement. I've only done a couple of colabs with her. I don't know her outside of an email exchange.
I hadn't really given much thought to veganism before watching an Intelligence Squared debate a few years back on the subject and it suddenly hit me that I had no good reason to eat meat and every reason not to. I've since not heard a single good argument in favour of meat eating. I'm still just a vegetarian but I plan to change that soon.
You don't need to hear an argument in favour of meat eating. You just need to look at your morphology, your physiology and your biochemistry to see who you are, what you are, and how you should be living and eating in order to maintain a the balance between you and the life all around you that supports you.. You just need to look at the people who live most naturally and symbiotically in this world, the indigenous hunter gatherers of the world which is how we all lived 10,000 years ago. We would not have been able to colonise the Northern latitudes of the planet unless we were naturally able to eat and digest meat. You just need to note that there are no vegan cultures and societies anywhere in the world, and never have been. That should tell you something about the diet. If it is so good for us you would expect vegan eating to have evolved with us and be widespread throughout the world. You just need to look at the number of vegans who are unable to maintain their health long term. You just need to look at the fact that the diet is unsustainable without access to out of season,and non local foods some from half way round the world. In addition, some of these foods require artificial fortification and the diet also requires additional supplements. Most of the world don't have access to this variety of food, it is only the privileged few living a Western lifestyle with the luxury of choice.
mchooksis mchooksis It’s not because humans have been eating meat for centuries and that’s what presumably made the colonization of the north possible that we should continue to eat it. We don’t live like we used to live back then, people would eat whatever they could hunt and find and didn’t have many options. For a long time veganism wasn’t sustainable because we didn’t have access to supplements and so health problems related to a diet without meat couldn’t be avoided. Nowadays we do have this access so it’s not necessary to eat meat. It’s true that some people can’t afford supplements but those who can have the option to be vegan, they aren’t simply because they don’t want to.
GavinJ06 that guy mchooksis is a perfect example of how there are no good arguments for eating meat. And in fact, when you hear things like that, it reminds you going vegan is the right move.
That's not even how it works, unless everyone went vegan overnight. We breed them, that's why there are so many, because the demand to consume is so high.
@@Olivetree80 Right... Like there'd be a severe overpopulation of domesticated cattle if we didn't have billions jammed into cement factories in spaces so small they can NEVER turn around in their entire lifetime..
@@Olivetree80 Nevertheless if we DO stop consuming meat, even progressively, we have to accept that all these animals and their offspring will have to die
@@Olivetree80 Because unless you can pay farmers to keep taking care of those livestock even in ethical ways there is nothing to do with them. And no question of freeing them in the wild either
So I watched this video almost 2 years ago and I hadn't considered veganism seriously and obviously wasn't vegan. Fast forward to today and it popped up as recommended and I thought it would be interesting to rewatch as a vegan. I remember thinking Alex made good points as usual, but in this viewing he was so charitable to Matt. There are countless times he could have applied pressure the same way Matt does on the show. There are so many things Matt said that make me wonder why he didn't do this. One thing Matt said that really got me, was the accessibility of it. He paints it as though it's impossible unless you're in a liberal city. I'm a vegan in rural USA in a heavily right wing religious area. I'm the only vegan I'm even aware of, yet I find it quite easy to maintain. Eating out is harder, but far from impossible as Matt makes it seem. This upon even simple scrutiny just crumbles. Every supermarket contains enough vegan options to sustain a healthy diet, these are the cheapest options I'm that store even so price isn't a factor. I remember thinking a lot of these points too so I cant fault it too much. It just blows my mind to hindsight see my ignorance and as far as im aware Matt is still not vegan? I don't and have never followed him though so I could be wrong. How someone can know what he knows, admir what he's admitted here, yet remain the same is a display of dissonance he vehemently condemns all the time on the show.
@@trillion1124 interesting take. I can't think of any reasons not to besides rare cases which almost nobody is in or specific areas which again isn't anyone watching this. The sole reason I've found that most don't is they don't want to, which bluntly isn't a reason.
I have been an aspiring vegan for many years. I just finished lunch that included feta cheese. I forgot to ask to have it left off. I ate it without regret. My daughter was vegan for years, but when diagnosed with Crohn’s disease, she had dropped to 90 lbs (age 27). She fought for 2 years, and finally switched to some meat, and has enjoyed good health. I bike to work & my car is electric. I don’t expect anyone to do the same. My goal for today is for my next meal to be vegan. If I fail, no guilt.
Peter Hofmann I'm only aware of the issue of B12 vitamin not being available in regular, unenriched vegan food, and that especially vegan women should focus on getting enough iron in their diet. But in my experience eating a vegan diet is both healthier and more enjoyable than eating a conventional diet. It's very easy to get started. I recommend you learn to make a vegan chili, a vegan curry or dhal, and a potato dish, and you're off to a great start.
Peter Hofmann Thank you. I'm happy to hear that. And don't worry too much about being perfect. You will learn as you go. I can promise you that if you focus on getting a lot of colors in your food you will inadvertently have a good mix of micronutrients in there too. "Eat the rainbow" is a good rule of thumb. Maybe check out some of the mock meats and plant minces while you are transitioning. Aldi has very reasonable prices on these products. I recommend oatmilk as a substitute for dairy milk in your coffee if you are a coffe with milk -type person. It is tasty and has a nice color and texture.
@Peter Hofmann If you miss meat at first, young jackfruit is a pretty neat substitute for something like pulled pork, when you cook it. It has a similar texture and is great on a bun like a pulled pork sandwich. Cooking it in some kind of sauce is best. I usually get it in a can, in oriental/Asian sections of some stores (I'm in the US). There are other substitutes like black bean burgers, etc. but I don't know of many since I'm not a vegan myself. Definitely do a lot of research and read labels to ensure you're getting the right nutrients, and consider consulting a nutritionist as well.
Alex... i've been a silent follower for a long, long, loooooong time, i'm so glad to see that your channel keeps pushing thought. Lots of love and respect
@@trillion1124 that doesnt have anything to do with Matts arguments. I can as a meat eater argue for veganism and if you are using bad arguments then thats just how it is. I may also be a hypocrite for arguing against something I indulge in, but that does not make the arguments themselves any different.
@@m.a.a.d9275 Yep, the classic Tu Quoque fallacy. I also could argue for veganism inspite of my absolute indulgence in eating the flesh. Does this put us in a star of cognitive dissonance?
@@scslre We all do morally unjustifiable things when it is convenient for us to do so. I've never seen a vegan give up their phone for example. Yet they say a phone is like a sausage - you don't want to know what's in it. Or something along those lines ... this doesn't disprove a vegan's argument nor does it make them a hypocrite, at least I don't think it does, but you have to admit that it is interesting where we draw those lines. The way vegans feel about their phone is how the majority of meat eaters feel about their food. We simply don't care where it comes from because it's convenient. Is it right? Probably not. But it's not like we live in this constant state of CD because most of us choose to ignore it and then we fall out of the trap. If you look at a chart of CD with smoking cigarettes as the example it's quiet easy to do it. You can either change your behaviour (stop smoking) or you can choose not to believe the evidence. Either way, you won't experience CD anymore over that topic if you do one or the other. Is willful ignorance really the solution I'm advocating for? Yes, it is - I take th3 same approach that you likely take when it comes to using your mobile phone or computer.
I remember when Vegan Gains called into The Atheist experience and I thought " what a idiot not to eat meat". Six months later i am now a vegan. Always keep a open mind. :)
@@caleb3909 It worked for me. You can never tell how people will react and you have further complexities such as long term effect contra short term, seed planting, anger turning into curiosity. I usually call BS on people claiming to know that he makes no or negative difference (not that you did that now).
So glad Alex is a vegan, I remember some of the older videos of him discussing it with Rationality Rules and others and he wasn't yet over the line. Excellent arguments Alex!
He does make great points but at the same time is 125 lb. I know there are vegan bodybuilders but at the end of the day I eat 6 meals a day with 50 grams of fat 150 g of carbs very low sugar very low sodium and 250 g or more of protein and I spend $100 a month. It is very difficult to match all of that with $100 a month and the same nutritional number. Not to mention I'm a very picky eater had although I have found vegan dishes that I enjoy, the cost and the nutritional value does not match up. But even all all that aside, I love eating meat. I don't care if I'm immoral I don't care if people don't like it I don't care if it's wrong I don't care if they made it legal I don't care if I am going to lose 10 years of my life I enjoy eating meat and it makes me happy and I will never change. Now if they now if they can create fake meat at the same cost, same nutritional numbers, same texture, same taste, then I would be willing to switch. And I have tried numerous vegan meats and unfortunately most of them in my opinion are disgusting. I would love to like them but a majority of them I do not like. I'm very picky so people can label me immoral or evil and that's completely fine. I support vegans but I will never be one of them
@@thickerconstrictor9037 That's fine, I accept your right to choose to take immoral action, especially when you've been open enough to acknowledge that it is, in fact, immoral.
@@thickerconstrictor9037 the current version of you must cease to exist, replace it with a better version of yourself or you'll never know true enlightenment
@@thickerconstrictor9037 He was underweight before he went vegan. Also a normal, healthy vegan diet is very cheap and easy, as long as you don't overindulge in a lot of vegan "meat" alternatives. Also veganism is a moral choice. I, as a vegan, even if was a bodybuilder, would never put bodybuilding over the life of other sentient beings.
Hey Alex, I admire you more everyday. The first time I tried veganism I failed. I wish I knew some things before: 1- omega 3:6 ratio is very important 2- keep an eye on your iron and b12 levels 3- watch your calloric intake per meal so you don't feel tired Always choose the path that makes you more human.
@@SylvanApe This is a serious question, not a troll. What do you do with your male chickens? To have non-fertilized eggs, you need to control your male chicken population. How does a vegan do that within their own systems?
@@craigcompton1 Make a nice "boys only" free range farm where they can live happy lives. Or just use genetic manipulation to get the desired ratio of m/f.
@@SylvanApe That's interesting. Is that not torture though, for the males, to be forced to live in celibacy? And why not for the hens as well, caged and deprived of a fundamental need?
@@BigHeretic So you are worried about chicken sex rights (sorry, too good a chance not to say this). I appreciate the overriding moral stance but how far is the leap to plant rights and your starvation from there? We are an animal, just like any other. I agree that we need to eat WAY less meat than we do, for many reasons including the rights of other life. But I have yet to get a clear reason as to why it's ok to kill some life and not others.
I watched EVERY MINUTE of this and I love you, Alex. It was an honor to have breakfast with you in Dallas. Thank you for doing this interview. It means a lot to me personally. I encouraged VG throughout his pursuit of Matt. I've since cut ties. But, just tagged him in a fb post in which I shared this video.
I think MD should look in the mirror... the way he shows frustration when his opposition does not accept the obvious, he's that person now. Very stubborn and a high desire to be right!
So damn true... Matt has little patience for callers whom he disagrees with and he hates when they are “dishonest” (his favorite word to describe his greatest pet peeve).
Yeah dillahunty such a hypocrite. Whenever other people play mental gymnastics he throws the worst, most immature temper tantrums. But in this video, he's doing exactly that! Lol just goes to show not to attach any weight to these narcissists
Jeez that was brilliant! I love Matt but if a Christian brought such flimsy arguments to him about god, he would utterly destroy them... and that's exactly what Alex did, but in his unique style. An absolute Masterclass. This discussion is worth watching over and over. I would love a post conversation review on this one... I think I'll be vegan within the year thanks to Alex and Ed. Keep it up guys!!
I respect both of them very much, and they both are extremely good at debating, but in this conversation it was almost painfull to see Matt struggeling to defend his position. It even seems he has no clear position. Suggesting that he hasn't got a clue whether a cow and calf are distressed and feel emotional pain when seperated is absurd.
Maybe Cosmic should have asked him how plausible the idea of animal suffering is to him. Since we all evolved the same way, I don't see it as very far fetched at all that animals also evolved to experience some level of suffering. As for suffering less than humans... humans most likely experience suffering in more psychological ways than other animals can. But something scary to think about is Dawkins once speculated something interesting: He speculated that perhaps dumber animals suffer even MORE acutely than humans since they don't have the mental capacity to avoid danger like we can so they evolved a stronger sense of suffering to compensate.
As someone who farms and ranches I can say that cow/calf separation can be a huge stress relief for the animals, especially the cows. Matt being on a farm could certainly have seen that as well.
Neal Mastel as a rancher, I can confirm this is true. They also walk right onto the killing floor in slaughter houses. When the pigs are dipped in carbon dioxide they practically scramble to get into the cages. Trust me, animals want this to happen. I’m a rancher, I couldn’t possibly have any bias one way or the other.
@@jaymiddleton1782 I'm not sure I understand you and Neal Mastel, are you guys saying the mothers WANT to be separated from their calfs, and the animals WANT to die? sounds very strange to me. Haven't worked on a farm but all animals I've seen have a strong self preservation drive, and most mammals have a strong mothering instinct, so I find that extremely hard to believe.
is it Cognitive Dissonance to lament the exploitation of living beings...while using an iPhone? Because it seems vegans tend to focus on the suffering of animals before the suffering of human beings.
@@sTEALtooth might as well just not do anything at all, right? Because doing nothing is way better than doing something. Can’t save everyone on the Titanic, so might as well leave everyone to drown. But seriously, we can’t stop every instance of suffering our actions cause. It’s almost impossible. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do as much as we can to reduce it. Going vegan is one of the biggest and easiest things you can do. You’re still using a phone/computer to type that comment, so how can you criticize vegans for doing the same? They’re, to use the above metaphor, at least /trying/ to save break out those lifeboats lol
I love Matt. He has been a great voice for scepticism, and is wonderful at cutting straight to the core of an arguement. However, watching this discussion, I couldn't help but feel Matt was performing some mental gymastics here. I can't say I blame him, it is very difficult to refute ethical veganism. Ultimately, it seems the core of the problem is that Matt can't reconcile the idea that beings have rights regardless of their utility to one's self or one's society with a worldview that procludes ethical veganism. Alex did a wonderful job of illustrating that Matt already holds many moral beliefs that are derived from this principle. For example, do individuals who provide no net benefit to society or one's self still have moral rights? I feel as if Matt does believe the answer to be yes, but he danced around this question instead, realizing that to concede the point would be a pretty big defeater for his argument. Overall, although the conversation was interesting, I was disappointed with Matt's performance.
Charles B People aren’t animals. Animals don’t have rights. I can’t believe this is a hard argument to understand. My dog doesn’t have rights, neither do any other animals, if you want to accept that or not, it’s the truth.
He is weak in the first two thirths. Then he actually gives Alex a run for his money. Please note that he is fighting the uphill battle since most of his audience is predisposed to agree with Alex's side of the debate. And Alex is a great debater.
@@zarakrishan8572 Well actually some countries have animals rights the same rights as some humans do, and we don't have innate natural rights, we only have rights because we deem it so for society. People are animals.
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
@@Thanosdidtherighthing So what? Domesticated chickens are mostly just that - a domesticated version of Red Junglefowl which is still widely found in the wild in Southeast Asia. If we stopped eating them probably the majority of domestic chickens would die off over a few years with a few special breeds remaining if people were interested enough to keep rearing them for other reasons. Same is probably true for other "food animals". A few would remain for sentimental reasons but populations would crash.
Hmmmm yes, dogs would go extinct without humans, so let's just slaughter them and breed them into existence, just to kill them and not give them a life worth living. We are soooooooooooo good.
@@Thanosdidtherighthing even if that's true, that doesn't mean we should breed them for food. If we are concerned about their survival (which is ridiculous given how fucked their bodies are), we can easily keep them alive in sanctuaries.
I don't usually watch lengthy podcasts, but I enjoyed listening to you both. I hope Matt gives the subject a lot of thought and looks into it. Thanks to both of you.
@ProtoCoaxke 1. Prove it. 2. Why is that relevant to today? 3. Cognitive dissonance is a phenomena where actions do not correlate with beliefs, it is an internal inconsistency in logic, where is this?
@ProtoCoaxke 1. That isn't a citation, thats just another way of saying "do your own research so that I don't have to fulfill my burden of proof" 2. Because what happened in the past for our survival is not needed in today's hypercaloric society, also, past actions do not somehow justify current ones. We .as have had good reason to eat animals in the past, but not anymore, millenia of progress and modern scientific understanding has shown we can survive and in fact thrive on a plant based diet, we no longer need meat to survive. 3. Being an omnivore does not require us to eat meat, it merely means we can survive on either meat or plants, not that we need both. Ignoring scientific data such as this? : The position of the American dietetics association pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ British dietetics association www.bda.uk.com/resource/british-dietetic-association-confirms-well-planned-vegan-diets-can-support-healthy-living-in-people-of-all-ages.html British national health service www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/vegetarian-and-vegan-diets-q-and-a/ Here are a few other studies just to throw around for fun: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK396513/ academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952 This one is a guide for physicians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/ And here are the results of the largest study ever conducted on the topic: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9860369/ I'll take the actual data over the outdated notion that just because we are omnivores that it somehow negates modern day understanding and up to date knowledge. (Not that you're going to read a lick of what I posted, but if you don't, and continue with the same line of reasoning, then you can look yourself in the mirror and know you're dishonest and lying to yourself, and we're afraid of reading the scientific consensus) 4. Because we give a shit. Animals don't need to die for our pleasure. Also, capitalism works on the basic principle of supply and demand, if the customers want it, somebody will supply it. Capitalists only care about what brings them the most green paper, if meat beings them money, they will sell meat, if people don't want to buy meat, supermarkets aren't going to buy stock that customers aren't buying, and farms aren't going to breed and sell animals that don't get bought. If supermarkets find their plant based options selling out, they're going to stick more of it, and we see that as a trend statistically, more plant based options are being sold, there's more variety of options, meat sales are declining, dairy sales are declining, there is progress and it starts with the consumer. Vote with your wallet if you want things to change. 5. Plants do not let out a scream at all, this is pseudoscience. Until somebody can prove that plants actually have a nervous system, a brain to interpret electrical impulses as pain, and until there is a scientific consensus on the matter, I'll still eat plants. This is also a red herring fallacy, and also a perfectionist fallacy, it also neglects to understand that animals require plants to eat, and the process of converting plant calories into animal calories is very inefficient, so by being vegan, more plants are saved if you supposedly care about plants. The plants feel pain argument has been debunked a million times, and do you really think vegans havent heard that one before?
@Zachary Stewart An animal dying purely for your tastebuds. There's nothing wrong with that? I hope you're not against dog fighting. Because that would not be logically consistent.
@Zachary Stewart Do you also pray to colourful crystals and call upon the power of the universe? "It all comes back to the self". I mean, dogs would be great produces of meat. We've just got to Genetically alter them like we have chickens and cows. Pump them full of steroids, select the perfect breeds etc. How long does it take a dog to be fully grown? I mean, they might be great for it. I get it, you're conditioned a certain way, and you're a complete simpleton. Me asking you to step outside of this is near impossible isn't it....... Wait....you go out of your way to kill ants? That's a bit weird mate.
Matt got cornered over and over here. Cosmic skeptic had him stuttering and falling over himself halfway through the conversation. Matt constantly dodges and makes poor excuses. You are doing the right thing skeptic. You are a smart guy. Keep it up. They feed them tho-Matt Dillahunty.
@Freddy McIntire I agree. I am just stating the fact that he was cornered etc, and dodged questions. I respect the debate, but matt knows what he was doing. He debates for a living. I very much doubt he was being logically honest, when he was switching the topic, etc. Im glad he did the debate, but he still loses respect from me in that aspect. If he had of just conceded, and admitted it when cornered, I would be a little more happy.
@Freddy McIntire Yes, you're absolutely right. I wish people wouldn't view responses like Matt's as negative, it only defeats the purpose of having these types of discussions. Plus Matt seemed to say he would look into it more, so may end up being invested enough in the issues to change his mind, which is a very healthy thing for a rational skeptic.
@@corpsecandy2076 He conceded that his main issue might be the fact that he is kind of ignorant about animal rights. He also said that he is in a state of cognitive dissonance. He and his position is to an extent respectable.
@J w I don't understand why your argument seems to be exclusively against Matt? You're right that he's a hypocrite, but if you watched CosmicSkeptic's video on veganism, you know he's a hypocrite as well. CosmicSkeptic's position is that it's immoral to eat meat, yet he still eats it precisely because it tastes good. It's possible he may be even a bigger hypocrite than Matt (which is not to say he's a bad thinker) because while Matt doesn't accept that eating meat is bad, CosmicSkeptic does accept that but still eats meat.
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
@@BigHelianthus I don't agree he is struggling in vegan debate, other than that he kicks ass, and he is good thinker who even gave Jordan Peterson very hard time
@@siddharthatwal6633 Well, he fails to convincingly respond to the propositions presented to him and often deflects. I'd say for an intellectual in an intellectual debate that would connotate struggling. I've only found one somewhat convincing argument against veganism and I challenge you to guess it...
Alex: So you would stop drinking milk if you were sure that a cow suffered from her calf being taken? Matt: Yes. Alex: And you agree that what happens in a factory farm is undeniably immoral? Matt: Yes. Alex: So will you stop supporting factory farms, considering you are knowingly contributing to something you deem immoral? Matt: Well, see, and I'm not saying you're saying this, but the totally unrelated problem I have with vegans that is completely irrelevant to your question is...
Organic meat is not from factory farms. Alex’s argument for veganism seems to only address this unhealthy way of raising animals when we know there are other forms. Also, his argument from a health perspective seems to ignore that a moderate amount of lean meat helps to provide a balanced diet, and, instead, he really focuses in on highly saturated, processed meat. The method seems slightly disingenuous to me. The argument for veganism seems to only work on an emotivist perspective when considering these other variables.
@@nofame7016 Well, the issue is that Matt wouldn't even concede to giving up *factory farmed* animal products, despite considering them immoral, and was consistently dodging questions. Additionally, all farm animals are harmed, regardless if it's factory farmed or organic. Besides the slaughter itself, you got dehorning, forced insemination, castration, tail docking, beak trimming, taking babies away from their mothers, genetic mutations from breeding, and more. It's a common misconception that lean meat is healthy. There are much better sources of protein for a balanced diet, that don't have all the negatives of meat. Such sources include beans, lentils, tofu, seitan, chickpeas, nuts, and seeds. One problem with meat is that it's high in saturated fat and cholesterol, which both clog your arteries and increase your risk of heart disease, and are not exclusive to any form of meat. You also have toxins that arise from cooking meat at high temperatures, called heterocyclic amines, again, not exclusive to any specific type of meat. Eggs and dairy products increase your risk of prostate cancer tremendously, and so do chicken and fish cooked at high temperatures. Then there's the loads of bacteria and diseases from meat. You got salmonella, e. coli, yersinia, mad-cow, spanish flu, covid-19, avian influenza, trichiniasis and more. On top of all that, meat eating is directly linked with obesity, has been shown to cause erectile dysfunction, contains large amounts of hormones (yes, even organic meat), and increases total mortality. You're right that veganism is about animal rights, and that's because veganism extends beyond food, and opposes all forms of animal harm. But there's a reason why some people eat a plant-based diet, without the motivation from an animal-welfare perspective, and that's because science shows that animal products are unhealthy to consume, and come with a wide-variety of issues that are absent in plant foods.
young old guy From what source are you getting that lean meat is unhealthy? I’ll admit you can get protein sources from other places like beans, soy meat, and vitamins, but certainly you’re not going to lie and say lean, baked or grilled meat is unhealthy. Again, the problem seems to lie with the methodology and capitalistic system for the production of meat. You’re looking at corrupt parts and basing your whole argument on it. Just to clarify, what is your moral system and how does that relate to animals and not plants?
young old guy Also, soy meat, which is the only thing close to being complete in protein source, has a ridiculous amount of estrogen. What type of meat (fried, baked, lean, fatty) is very important in the health argument. Otherwise, you are giving disingenuous statistics. Of course a burger cooked at 500 degrees in oil at McDonalds is bad for you. The same would be true for a soy burger. Like I said before you can receive many of the nutrients provided in meats through vitamin supplements, but the question is what moral grounds do you have for eating animals as wrong besides an emotivist one, which exists on a personal basis? As a moral subjectivist based on human pleasure, I fail to see Alex’s argument for it, but I’m curious what yours is
@@nofame7016 First, you can look at the nutrition for stuff like chicken and turkey, which are both high in cholesterol and saturated fat. Yes, grilling meat is unhealthy. Here is one source: www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet Capitalism certainly makes aspects of production worse, but the unhealthiness and immorality of meat production is not intrinsic to capitalism. For example, killing an animal is necessary if you want to eat meat, regardless of the economic system. So is castration in order for the meat to be tender, so is dehorning in order to keep animals in confined spaces and/or prevent accidents to workers, and the same is true for many other aspects of animal ag. My moral system is roughly the same as most people's. I'm against harming other sentient beings i.e those that are conscious and capable of feeling pain. If you're against harming humans, dogs, and cats, you could also ask yourself the same question. That said, plants lack a central nervous system, which is what allows for consciousness and pain-feeling. Additionally, more plants are necessarily killed for an omnivorous diet than a plant-based diet, because you have to feed tons of plants to the animals that you consume, and more plants than you could ever consume in a lifetime. So even if I was morally opposed to harming plants, veganism would still be the moral choice.
I couldn't help but think that if Matt were a caller on a show named Veganist Experience, he would have been told to call back when he had a clue as to what he was talking about.
@Great White I get the feeling that you don't have a clue as to what veganism is with this comment. Veganism is a moral belief that un-necessarily exploiting animals for food, clothing or other purpose is wrong. With any moral belief, the people who hold such a belief are going to want to try and convince others of it. When black people were used as slaves, imagine if nobody had done anything - and those against slavery didn't ever speak up - martin luther king never gave that speech - black people now would still be living in slavery. Likewise with women's rights - if the suffragettes hadn't done what they did, women would still have no right to vote. Those people in their time were hated by many others - they were locked up, assassinated and generally got on people's nerves. Just like Vegans probably are getting on your nerve's. But it's precisely because it's a moral belief. If it wasn't, they wouldn't give a flying fuck what you decided to eat.
Shut him the hell up looool it was glorious, shame Alex has chosen to no longer align his actions with his morals but that was a mic drop moment for the ages.
@@Dr.Drakken_I don't think that's what it was at all. I didn't even know what the 13th amendment was, but I knew exactly what it was the moment he said it. This was one of the best moments I've ever seen, as well. I actually said "oh shit" out loud when he said it lol
Thanks CosmicSkeptic for walking the walk. It's baffling to me how a community which prides itself on rational and ethical behavior has about the same level of veganism as the general public which is decidedly LESS rational.
@@JasonWilliams89 That's the simply the echo chamber of ppl drawn to this video. Which, of course, is not representative of the cohort I was referencing in my original comment. Feel free to peruse other Atheist forums and do a study! I bet it won't be 95% for veganism. I sincerely wish it was. Regards, A (fellow?) vegan
@Richard P I had a feeling you were just a dumbass from some other comment thread where you actually try to justify eating animals, but now it's clear you are, in fact, a dumbass. Keep going against your own self-interest, we're all rooting for you!
I have never been so impressed by Alex than I am now. It would have been so easy to stay on casually friendly terms with D., who is the kind of guy who manages to induce others to want to remain on that level with him (call it overwhelming gravitas), but instead he stuck to his guns and stood up for the suffering animals. Thank you, Alex.
Anthony Clark I agree. It is clear that Matt is being intellectually honest with regard to the reason for the conversation. I admire both of these gentlemen and appreciate the mutual respect shown through this dialogue. This is the reason I support debate. They learn from each other
As a vegan too I encounter a lot of meat eaters who do not stay this calm in a debate and I very much respect that. However I think with some of his arguments I would have the need to hold myself back to not react in a annoyed way
*Anthony Clark* Perhaps you'll know this ; what is Alex's position on grasshoppers. Obviously he won't consume any animal products but what's the ethical position? Is it immoral to kill a grasshopper?
@@BigHeretic Do you know for sure that a grasshopper has a subjective experience? Unless you're fairly certain they don't have a subjective experience, then one should grant the benefit of the doubt to the grasshopper, presume a subjective experience, and extend moral consideration to the grasshopper. This presumes you value sentience in moral decision making. If you kill the grasshopper and it turns out they are sentient, imo, you have committed a moral wrong. If you don't kill the grasshopper and it turns out they are NOT sentient, imo, you have committed no moral wrong because NOT KILLING a non-sentient organism is morally neutral. All that will have been lost is you will have denied yourself the pleasure of killing a grasshopper (if you're into that sort of thing.) Given this, one should err on the side of caution and not kill the grasshopper (presuming this isn't a killer grasshopper and poses no existential threat to you) I'd recommend Albert Schweitzer's writing on the topic where he discusses the moral virtue of helping a worm back to the grass from the sidewalk after it had been washed out from the rain. www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/schweitzer01.htm
@@ethologos2580 So...? If you can't be sure that plants have subjective experience are you going to stop eating plants? If not, what is the ethical argument for not killing a grasshopper?
Matt: "there have been factors that outweighed the immorality of eating meat" Alex: "could you name those factors?" Matt: ... *Pauses* *Sighs* *Proceeds to talk about the 2016 election and vegans' perception of him*
@ of course, I wouldn't recommend for anyone to compromise their health for any cause. I commend you for your efforts towards preservation of wildlife. I do agree that hunting, if done right, causes far less suffering than animal farms and slaughter houses do. However it is important to recognize that the consumption of other animal products (e.g. products tested on animals, or those that contain leather, wool, fur, gelatin, etc.) still funds the same cruel industries. Now I'm not sure what your condition is, but I do know that iron absorption is enhanced by vitamin C in citrus fruits. I'd consult with a physician who specializes in nutrition before discounting the possibility of a plant-based diet. Also, with regards to supplements, I have done extensive research, and have tracked my nutrition to get an idea of what needs supplementing. The only supplements I need are vitamins D and B12 (which 42% and 39% (respectively) of Americans are deficient in anyway), and I take them in liquid form by putting a drop of each in my water or smoothies. My blood tests have demonstrated this to be efficient thus far. And as for plants feeling pain, there's no evidence to suggest that chemical reactions in plants that doesn't involve nociceptors (sensory neurons specific to pain) or a central nervous system cause any perceivable pain. But even if preserving plants is your goal, boycotting animal farming is the best way of doing so. Even the WWF says that beef production is the #1 cause of deforestation, and more than half the grains in the US are fed to livestock. That's why being plant-based is better for the environment and preservation of plants themselves, too. The toxic waste of factory farms hurts the planet, too. I recommend watching Conspiracy (Netflix), and Dominion (TH-cam) to learn more about all the ways we can improve the health of our planet, and all the living beings on it. The Game Changers (Netflix) is also a good one about health and athletic performance. Cheers, friend.
To be fair, he did have a point in making that diversion which was to say that it's possible he just doesn't care enough about animals, while also admitting that Alex made a strong argument. He's being honest at the very least, and he mentioned that he's not very educated on the matter (yet).
1:42:00 Alex you presented the argument extremely well - one of the best I’ve seen. To me this is the type conversation vegans should be having with people who are potential allies.
Plenty of vegans are having these types of conversations. Unfortunately the debate is so often shut down by the other sides reluctance to entertain the thought that what they are doing, and have believed to be fine for most of their life, might be wrong in face of good argumentation. Like how Matt conducted himself when he spoke to Richard (Vegan Gains) on The Atheist Experience. We have to grow up and out of these things you know.
@@NitrogenBullet You really have a lot of growing up if you think Vegan Gains presented good argumentation. This is the problem with our community: we are reluctant of denouncing bad arguments as long as they are for our cause.
@@RanEncounter I'm not saying Richard is infallible, but he clearly made majority good arguments in that particular conversation - when he was allowed to talk. By how you come across I don't think I trust you to know good from bad arguments. Secondly you won't be able to provide proof that vegans are reluctant to denounce bad arguments. I have lots of arguments for "our cause" that i never use, exactly because i think they are bad.
@@moldytomato9130to be fair devoutly religious people that lose their religion tend to live out their fanaticism in some other way. Often in the form of being extremely anti-religion
I think this is the weakest argument I've ever heard Matt's made or the one he'll ever make !! Alex is an absolutely brilliant debater and asked all the right questions, while not really being forceful, allowing us, the audience to see glaring faults in Matt's arguments ! Our boy's gonna be an intellectual heavyweight !! *I mean 'boy' in the most adoring possible way !!
Phillip H While I don’t disagree at all with this statement, it’s important to remember that any problems with growing and eating plants are only magnified when applied to growing and eating animals. The animals we eat themselves eat plants, and we get a very small portion of those calories back in the form of edible meat, dairy, or eggs. So the total amount of plants that die to sustain a non vegan is actually far greater that the amount needed to sustain a vegan.
@@philliph8991 Surely you must have heard that argument debunked a million times by now? 1. Plants have no brain or central nervous system, which means they can't feel anything. 2. 80% of the plants we grow are fed to livestock so if we really care about minimizing harm to plants, a plant-based diet is still the way to go.
@Matt I have great respect for you, but please don't say "I hate when people make bad arguments" to dismiss veganism off hand. You just spent over an hour stringing bad argument to bad argument.
Veganism is a slippery slope sir. If we give the same rights to life to all animals then what is next? Will pecidicide be banned next because bugs will suffer? Insects feel pain and billions of insects are killed every year.
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq that ain't no slippery slope. It is a necessary discussion to have and we need more science to make good decisions about the issue. Using pesticides by the way is a topic that needs to be critically disected anyway, since we have huge problems with them killing to many beneficial insects, which hurts us humans as well.
He did spend over an hour stringing bad arguments together but... Michael, you got it out of context. CosmicSkeptic was asking why veganism was something Matt avoided talking about as a subject. Matt clearly isn't dismissing veganism. He was explaining why and how he's known for dismissing veganism on the show, 'The Atheist Experience'. In the same breath he went into how veganism isn't relevant enough to his show to address to the utter exhaustion that the audience may have wanted to in the past. The context was essentially, "Not only is it irrelevant to that show, but the few callers who do bring it up make horrible arguments and I'm not gonna waste that sort of very limited time there. Which is why I'm here to talk to you instead."
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq That would absolutely be a slippery slope if that's what was being advocated for. Veganism doesn't simply presuppose that animals have equal rights to life as humans do. Because they don't, and we all know that. Lots of vegans defend affordable healthcare, but you're never going to see a vegan arguing for affordable healthcare for a deer or something. Ethical veganism is a conglomeration of different beliefs. I'm not vegan, but I can plainly see that people are vegans for different reasons. It's not like this is some hard push to blur the line between humans and other animals.
@@stealthbeastgaming I have to disagree here. Firstly Matt dismissed Veganism off hand on multiple occasion. Secondly he was presented with some good arguments in this (and prior conversations) and answered them badly and with inconsistencies. And finally... Lots of vegans called his show, until he started hanging up on them and saying he doesn't want to talk to them. Matt pretends to be a humanist but isn't willing to have a real argument about an important moral issue. On the calls I could see over some of this. But in this interview he showed me that he is just another white old dude who has settled his position and thinks he knows better than others.
WOW! Matt... You said, if you felt that a cow goes through phsychological stress when it's calf is taken away you would stop drinking milk. Go visit some dairy farms, and just watch both the cow & the calf, not just when it happens, but for days afterwards. You will stop drinking milk immediately.
@@Phoenix-King-ozai I do. People will go to all sorts of lengths to justify their beliefs, no matter how unjustifiable they are. This is clearly the case with Matt and eating meat.
@@Solidude4 I agree But since its a subjective thing We can't prove that he is full of shit Which is what he is banking on Alex cut his bs so many times in the video He should just have admitted he was biased It would have been a lot more honest
@@Phoenix-King-ozai Exactly. Even before Alex went vegan he was honest and admitted he can't morally justify it and I respect that a lot. Like, keep eating meat if you really want to but don't come up with BS reasoning for why you think it's moral to do it.
@@Solidude4 Ikr The hypocrisy pisses me off I am just a Vegetarian now I need to have milk because of the circumstances But i know that cows are horribly treated I accept that Vegans are doing a better job of reducing suffering than me Matt flat out stated that he doesn't think its immoral to kill animals Because of lack of some social contract or some garbage I bet he would have been a slave owner if he lived in that time His excuses are just that shitty
Editing to say, outstanding episode, Alex! I don't eat animal products of any kind for spiritual, moral/ethical, health and environmental reasons. I did, I am ashamed to say, for most of my life before realizing that NOT killing and eating, harming, or exploiting other sentient beings (even the ones whose cognitive capabilities are not obvious to me) is a hands down, inarguable, no-brainer. In my opinion, arguments to the contrary are exercises in intellectual sophistry solely for the purpose of rationalizing one's own immoral choice to do otherwise. Ever engage in an intellectual discussion about the concept of "love and morality"? How is it ever loving/ moral to kill and eat or exploit a creature who isn't harming or threatening me in any way and who has as much right to live as I do, when there is an abundance of healthier, more environmentally compatible and easily sustainable plant foods and products readily available?
Amazing guest, really looking forward to this one. Over the last couple of years you have truly been putting the "skeptic" back into youtube skepticism, Alex, and I'd like you to know much it is appreciated. Really looking forward to the growth of your platform. Thank you foremost for your honesty and authenticity.
I can understand Matt's hesitation to change over to veganism. I think the missing piece is culture. Matt's family and personal culture involved eating meat. It's the same for religion. It's part of our family's culture and it's not that easy to pull away from it. FYI i've been vegan for 27 years.
David Nickarz i think culture is actually not a good justification for animal consumption. There are a lot of other cruel cultural acts that we despise
@@2702-i9i I don't think it's a justification, it's just something we have to overcome. If you ask why more people aren't vegan, I think culture is a big part of it. The good news is that vegan food is becoming part of the larger culture.
Not only that, he's Texan. I mean, Texas is pretty much BBQ Meat-Eater mecca of the planet. It's a gigantic part of their culture - possibly more so than anywhere else on earth.
Volt 9000 It’s as easy to be vegan in TX as everywhere else (from a vegan Texan living near the Mexican border from a hunter family). Plus if you’re from Austin, you’re spoiled with all the vegan options, I think it’s like the 2nd or 3rd best place to be vegan in the US.
Wow, MD is normally as solid as stone, to have CS take him out for a dance was fascinating. We throw so many red herrings in because we don't want to say that we are not willing to give up on the taste.
I'm sure I wasn't alone in a few eye-rolls at Matt's arguments. Get Ed Winters (Earthling Ed) on here, these are the sort of arguments he deals with daily. Great job by Alex here. Big up the vegan atheists x
Kate Gleave actually you're being brainwashed by a cult that claims to be a part of the skeptic Community but isn't based on legitimate studies. The only reason why vegans do so well is because the ones who do it right eat fresh Whole Foods and not processed garbage. It has nothing to do with the fact that they don't eat meat because if I were the case humans we be naturally herbivores and we would have never ever evolved the intelligence that we have now which was the result of us having to hunt.
Kate Gleave it is true he didn't do so well in the debate but it doesn't negate the fact that vegans like to spread lies to let people into believing that we are all natural herbivores even though our human evolution contradicts that thoroughly
Levi Matthews Never met a vegan who claims we are herbivorous. We are omnivores. We CAN eat both. Difference between us and other omnivores is moral agency. We CAN live and thrive on a whole foods plant based diet. It is our view that we SHOULD.
I still don't get the argument of moral superiority of defying the natural order by eating only plants instead on both animals and plants as we are supposed to do by biology.
@@TheNezharMC actually biologically we are closest to herbivores and frugivores. Animals that are meant to eat meat can actually TEAR THE ANIMAL FLESH DIRECTLY form their body and just EAT everything
@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 Tell that to the canine teeth. Also our brain is as big as it is because of the increased nutrient income. Well if you want to become an Australopithecus afarensis again, go with it. Our ancestors were frugivores indeed, that's why we have most of the teeth for that purpose, although not all of them. Also by ancestors I'm saying the Australopithecus as all Homo hominids were part carnivore. Homo erectus had better speed for persecuting prey, for example. We had better brain to make traps and advanced weapons. It is always a system to gather food, nonetheless, and fruit is easy to come by, specially in african jungle or savannah.
@@YourVeganFriendTonia Our canines aren't as big and in the same form as them, they're the canines of a carnivore + the teeth in the last part are of a frugivore , thus, we are omnivores. Like boars. That was strangely poetic.
In his defense, he admits this is the longest conversation he's ever had on the topic. I think this is about as well as it could have gone for someone's first time hearing all this. Maybe I'm biased, but I see my own cognitive dissonance and naive bias not to change my eating habits in his responses. It took me a long time of reflection to realize my hypocrisy and I hope that Matt will eventually reach the conclusion that seems so apparent to us here on the other side of it
I AM MANY; what seems simple, such as whether altruism exists, has been debated for at least hundreds of years. I'm not as old as Dawkins but I am older than Dillahunty. When I was a university undergraduate taking philosophy this very issue was being debated. My professor told the class that he had been in a debate about whether altruism existed. So, it doesn't surprise me at all that a long running debate in philosophy could not be settled in this video.
Maybe before you try and call into question someone else's way of thinking, you should learn the difference between "seizes" and "ceases". Which is what you actually meant. Just saying. Lol
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
Sun Flower; it's possible that you are right about Dillahunty. I have some different thoughts about the matter. - Is Matt on his call in atheist program resentful? Maybe. It's also possible that the atheist experience has a bigger audience with Matt. - The other more empathetic hosts of the program will let the theists ramble on more about their theories/experiences about God and then the topic can get sidetracked. The extended circular reasoning could lead to fewer viewers. - Matt’s tough responses as host mimic certain reality TV shows. It's a more popular format imo even though sometimes it turns me off. * As for criticizing Matt because he has not thought through certain ethical issues in this video, I found many of cosmicskeptic’s examples to be very abstract. For instance, what if you killed an innocent person and then you forgot about it? I'm not going to think such a scenario through because I would never do that. Even in terms of an example of philosophical discourse I don't think it's very productive to consider this. Another example involves parents who want their children to not do well in college because it's all about the parent’s pleasure? - I took a couple of university philosophy classes. I did well in them but I just wasn't interested in the types of discussions which are very removed from the way people behave. I ended up being a psychology major and I stuck with that throughout my career. * Back to Matt; his motivation for leaving the path to become a minister is an interesting one. He doesn't touch on that very often. I don't recall him ever discussing why he became an atheist activist. Something to ponder.
Its amazing how well you understand the vegan philosophy after only being exposed to it for such a short period of time. you absolutely nailed this. well done.
FWIW I didn't get to veganism for ages. It took over a year. I started by going flexitarian for the environment. Then I found out just how bad meat was for the climate and environment so I went veggie. Then I found that to be easy so started cutting out cheese because its carbon footprint is so bad. Then Veganuary came along an I thought, "sure, why not?". Then i thought, "that wasn't so tough" and stayed mostly plant-based. Then I heard Alex talk about the ethics of animal agriculture and I adopted veganism as a SECOND reason to stick to plant-based food. I think this incrementalism can be really good for people who are deeply entrenched in a meat-saturated culture and worried that they can't go vegan.
@@astronymity veganism in itself actually really has nothing to do with diet, only if you want to live by this philosophy then the conclusion sure leads to a plant-based diet, this yes. EDIT: so you would rather speak about a vegan lifestyle or philosophy and about the plant based diet that fits that vegan lifestyle. The same can be seen when people speak of "going vegan for health reasons", but as the animal rights and welfare are not addressed, it is actually only "moving to a plant-based diet for health reasons". This should not sound pedantic, but it is an important difference, as especially the media and society just throws ethical vegans and "fitness/health people" into one pot. So most of the time when you hear about "ex-vegans" it is actually just somebody that gave up their plant-based diet and not that an ethical vegan lost his way.
Great, I really enjoyed that, I have seen and enjoyed Matt D in many forums. I hope he does go and investigate It would be a real step forward to have him speak for the movement.
Often moral argument is significantly a personal abstraction. If you ask if it’s moral to be a serial killer or rapist, most often the discussion isn’t being done by murderers or rapists. In this case Matt seems unwilling to quantify or unaware of the social pressure that contributed to his animal consumption. This social pressure isn’t a small factor. If selfishness is a significant or even the only motivation for everything a person might do, then the social conformity of a family tradition, shared recipes and experience is powerful and is contradictory to the moral dilemma. It’s not just standard cognitive dissonance, often people are aware of how they’ll suffer or lose if they act on an issue that the majority accept.
In topics you don't put a lot of time into it's very common for people like matt to have to spend a lot of time choosing words very very carefully. I do it all the time.
@@Bigislandchef This is very true. It's something we're so used to see everyone doing without question that it must be the right thing to do. Also, when I went vegan I realized how painful it was to finally confront the reality, considering my past choices. It was like I was retroactively experiencing a form of trauma. I guess subconsciously we know something's not right, but maybe you have to be vegan to experience this. But being vegan does make one an outcast. You need to have very strong will and determination, because it's something that if you decide to quit, everyone will celebrate.
@@MrKry "we're so used to see everyone doing without question that it must be the right thing to do." While not a satisfying foundation for ethics, it is one with great predictive power. The often used hypothetical "what if society as a whole decides slavery is moral' is not a hypothetical, and actually has a straightforward answer.
You should’ve treated him as he was in “the vegan experience” cause his only argument was: oh! what you say it makes total sense, but I don’t want to go vegan, cause I don’t want to.
@@moimeself1088 The problem in this case is more about the theoretical side. The debate is not about turning Matt (or you) vegan on the spot, it's about acknowledging that you would theoretically have a obligation to do so. If you acknowledge that you have a obligation, but you choose to make it "a blind spot" then you get the point at least
@@dean7603 i'm not necessarily persuaded by all the moral arguments made by vegans. Having said that, i acknowledge that my reluctance to give up meat is also based on taste, preference and convenience. I have tried just going vegeterian or vegan at different times ... for a day or a week, etc. I enjoyed some of the meals but found the experiences unsatisfying overall, esp the vegan periods. It was too difficult to avoid animal products, and even went as far as making my own mushroom based burger patties for one of our meals. But forgetting that some things are animal products (e.g. adding cream, butter, cheese, etc) made me feel like i failed. I also just prefer the taste, and found the alternatives less enjoyable. Anyway, for some reason i have been more persuaded by the environmental arguments than the animal rights ones. I have cut down on my consumption of meat. But i also know that i'm probably not going to make a full lifestyle change. Sorry if that offends anyone. That's my truth.
@@moimeself1088Again, I'm not interested in changing your behavior, but I'm always irretated by meat eaters so willingly denying the relevance of morality. We can debate about a definition of morality, but you wouldn't be able to draw a relevant line between humans and animals. So yes you can discount morality as a concept but where does that leave us? So why would a rape be "wrong"? If you dont agree with any concept of morality than it just becomes a matter of interest conflicts and force,doesn't it?
moi meself Sounds like you have an inability to be morally and logically consistent then. Objectively speaking, when does pleasure take more importance of someone else?
Which is hilarious because most plants and soya are grown for animal feed... so if he was concerned about combine harvester deaths, he’d still support veganism!
Tom H but killing far more by eating meat. Our mere presence on earth means we have an impact... it’s about reducing it. Meat eaters claim that veganism is hypocritical because there are crop related deaths in all food, ignoring that the majority of crops are grown for animal feed making it inefficient. Facts beat fiction.
How about the deer shot to protect apples? Crows shot to protect sweet corn? How about colony bee collapse due to glyphosates to protect crops for human consumption? How about pesticides causing malformation to aquatic animals? How about the loss of wild habitat especially wetlands to growing food for human consumption. How about the absolutely vile things humans have done to dogs to make them the perfect, and oh so cute, human companion even when it causes negative health issues? How about all of the ducks that are killed to protect rice crops. How about we stop commercial animal farming, stop feeding cattle on corn which causes them suffering because they cannot digest it and we stop feeding them hormones but instead let them forage on the land that cannot be used for any plant/grain farming and then kill them for food in a way that is humane. BTW is it not okay to imply that the combine harvester argument is cherry picking, go out and follow a harvester, it is a massacre. And just a note that is not about the ethical argument, or not yet, if vegans get to force their agenda and the world is made vegan...and supplementation becomes a completely necessary component of life...what then the cost of vitamin B12? If the cost of insulin in the US is a clue ... too bad so sad for the majority of the worlds poor.
Amazing Alex, I’ve only just discovered you and your content and I predict you will go far and the impact you’ll have will be recognised…. ;) great intellect and you articulate and advocate so well.
@@isacsilva6685 The impact on animal health is obviously not great so yes, human health. It is possible to source carefully and eat selectively so I am not saying we must all be vegan, just conscious of our impact. i1.wp.com/iamahoneybee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ng-hidden_water.jpg. www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-a-livable-future/projects/meatless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html. And this - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26780279.
And the fact most vegans quit due to ill health. We aren’t gorillas or cows and most people aren’t constitutionally capable to only eat plants. Shipping plants from all over the world isn’t good for carbon emissions. There are ways to produce beef without environmental harm. The same can’t be said for crops.
GB where is your evidence most vegans quit due to ill health? People eating plants flown from all over the world are usually omnivorous - people that eat both meat and plants. You also don’t seem to know that the food we feed cattle is also flown from all over the world - the reason people in Brazil were setting parts of the amazon on fire was to clear it to produce feed for beef. Not only do we feed most of our crops to animals (flown from all over the world) but we actually ship these animals half way across the world too. 14,000 sheep were found drowned in a cargo ship headed for Turkey. You simply are misinformed if you think that less energy goes into making animal products than plants. Remember, these 56 billion animals killed every year are fed with plants - all of that water and energy gone into one tiny serving of meat. Besides, plants don’t produced methane, manure and urine which make river water and soil toxic. You need to do more research.
@@philominakilgour2607 regenerative farming! no need to feed cattle agro food. eat more food from animals means less international shipping of plants. simple. just need to convert the factory farms to regenerative farming. forget the vegan experiment. all the nonsense about pollution and environment and water etc is about factory farming. not advocating for that (although a lot of those 'facts' are exaggerated but that's another subject).
Vegans can't make any headway with christian right-wingers, so they are trying their luck with rational Leftists. They'll fail just as they have always failed.
@@garax1548 Nawh, that's one of those bullshit vegan lies, it's like christian converts to islam, the muslims won't tell you that they fall away and reject islam at the same rate.
@@rstevewarmorycom if you had any awareness of the world around you, you'd know that's so fuckin wrong. From a non-vegan, I can objectively say that the vegan world has expanded GREATLY in the past few years, not only evident in the open debates online, but also in the food industry itself
1:10:05 alex: if there was an option that guaranteed that you weren't eating factory farmed animals, would you take it? matt: yes alex:... matt: well, actually no
So, he says something, and then after having a moment to consider it further, decides that he spoke too soon. Doesn't sound nearly as gotcha when phrased that way though.
I would. I would not eat at restaurants and only hunt for meat. Now I have a whole side of. Y family that raise their own chickens, eggs free range and hunt for the homeless which led to them hunting for their meat exclusively. That meant no more beef but no big deal. Venison is lean and better for you. How do you side step people who have totally avoided the meat industry altogether? This stays within the nature of the question. So dont be dishonest and spout that it still kills animals because that was not the question.
@@PLF... Empathy need not be a binary, you can extend differing levels of empathy. So it's not just about where you draw the line, but what factors influence the levels of empathy in several situations.
I've been without meat for a little over 1 month now, i just wanted to see how my body reacts if i dont eat any meat. Feels really good and i don't actually want meat anymore.
Probably the most complete and balanced argument I've seen for veganism in a long time.The ethical argument is the hardest to make and often descends into personal attacks while the ecological necessity for veganism is essentially bulletproof at this point and you could see Matt had no reply to it except to claim he needs more info and couldn't rely on the facts as presented here. If an opponent of his did the same in a religious debate I doubt he'd be as understanding. Well done.
The ethical argument is easy, but it requires backbone. It requires a debater to point out the prejudices that are necessarily employed against nonhuman animals to justify exploiting animals.
@@AV57 The issue that's always arisen for me with the ethical argument is whether or not it works in all contexts, and if not then is it really of use? I'm sure we've both made enough attempts at arguing the ethics to have learned that telling ppl how they're fundamentally wrong about something is not the easiest way to foster agreement! For example, could it be meaningfully put to ppl who, by necessity, need meat in their diet? These being hunter gatherer societies, small scale subsistence farmers and nomads to name a few. I think it would be absurd to approach ppl of this kind in this manner, and they would most likely, and probably rightly, laugh at you. These ppl are generally living in small scale, very sustainable ways and to have a profligate westerner 'enlighten' them as to the error of their ways would be nothing short of insulting I think. If groups of ppl exist who are fully justified in their use of animals for nutrition, among other things like clothing obviously, then that opens up enough of a hole for meat eaters generally to make shit of the argument. Of course it must be argued that we should treat animals with dignity and respect at all times but extending that out to the entire negation of their use for food, when all of history is weighed against you, is a damn hard sell in my eyes, especially when the ecological argument excels here since it gains strength the more it encounters belligerent self interest. Unfortunately getting ppl to act selflessly will always be harder than the opposite and that's why I think ethics, while laudable, is the loser here.
sierrabianca, that’s why you have to have a good ethical argument, as opposed to a bad one. Sure, approaching these types of people with an unsympathetic and half-baked Disney version of an argument will get you laughed at, but that’s not what we should do. Start with the basics, like prejudice. Animal exploitation relies upon accepting prejudices. So, showcase the faultiness of that. Eventually, they will hit a wall and be forced to either lie to themselves or change their perspective on the matter.
@@AV57 There are reasons beyond ethics to be Vegan, and there are reasons beyond prejudice to kill animals. For some it's a survival imperative. If your 'good' ethical argument undermines these ppl's fundamental ability to live in the world, is it still an ethical argument?
@@sierrabianca, animal rights has never asked anyone to put themselves in genuine mortal danger to extend rights to nonhuman animals--just as human rights has never asked humans to put themselves in mortal danger for other humans. If you are stranded on an island with nothing to eat, but a human, the conclusion is not that the human rights argument is bad--it's that human rights is not a possibility in that specific scenario. The same logic applies to the types of scenarios you presented above, but in regards to nonhuman animals' rights.
Skip to 37:52 for the veganism discussion to begin. Thanks to Matt for taking the time to do this. All relevant links are in the description.
EDIT: I've seen a lot of debate about this in the comments already: yes, I'm currently vegan.
This looks interesting, but you should have left that early question to "why well being"? When you throw out alternatives like "virtuousness" you are making something of a non-sequitur. If a person is virtuous, then they are one who behaves morally - it is a quality dependent upon whatever is deemed moral. Not a big critique - just a tip. Keep the questions short, concise, and to the point and you can avoid mistakes that with a less friendly interviewee could derail the whole thing.
No all super hero wear cape 💪
Great work Alex!
Earthling Ed is amazing! I’m so glad you’ve been in contact with him.
Hey Cosmic, how do I get a hold of you for having a discussion on veganism? I'm a descriptive subjectivist value pluralist and I've been studying the topic of veganism for the past year. I'd love to just have a discussion about Rawls and notable differences and the way morality could and does operate. Please send me a message!
Around 53:40 they start talking about veganism
The rest is definitely worth it just as much, but if someone wants to see just that part:)
Thank you, was looking for this comment.
Thanks man :)
Wtf lol was waiting for that and its about after half the video
Humans will not survive unless we start going vegan. 100
Thank you
"we don't know the extent of how sentient animals are or what their pain thresholds are, so.."
Never understood this argument. If that were the case, then surely what logically follows is that animals should at least be given the benefit of the doubt, instead of sentenced to a life of torture and slaughter.
WOW I never thought about it that way. Thank you for giving me a new perspective on the suffering of animals.
Yeah, but steak thoooooo.
@@bbqseitan7106 sounds like you should try... bbq seitan...
I'll see myself out...
@@pippofranco879 me is soii boii
Exactly. In addition, isn't there enough evidence to warrant their pain thresholds are similar? We're referring to animals with brains, a central nervous systems, we express fear and pain in similar manners & will avoid discomfort & known threats to our well being. That's *more* than enough to extend the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not used to seeing Matt tap-dancing like this. Very interesting talk, CosmicSkeptic.
@@SilenceDogwood. That's one that Christian apologists use to make themselves feel better about Matt's position on religion/theism being more reasonable than theirs. No-one has ever been able to explain to me what a "Dillahunty Dodge" is.
@@SilenceDogwood. That's a complete non-response unless you can actually provide an example. Don't project your convenient position onto me.
@@SilenceDogwood. Anything can be answered in a TH-cam comment section... that's a non-sequitur.
@@SilenceDogwood. Non-sequitur-ception. The question itself is a non-sequitur, and if you unpack that question, it also relies on a non-sequitur. It's sort-of like asking "if Johnny has 5 apples and Jane has 4 apples, how many oranges does Paul have?"
@@SilenceDogwood. As much as the natural laws and desired amount of chucking allowed. Your question is incomplete. I need to know the body weight of this woodchuck, woodchucking abilities, stamina, ambient temperature, position of the sun, and your bank account information. Without all of that, its unknowable
Hi Alex, doubt you'll see this but I want to post it anyway. This specific video convinced me to go vegan. It's not something that I had ever given serious thought to until you brought it to my attention and I just want to thank you for being so vocal and getting the word out there.
Love to hear this!! Hope you're doing well
@@kin.9133 Doing amazing :) never going back
It convinced me not to do so as Matt has a healthy skin color and Alex looks more like a walking corpse. Something very common among vegans as they lack some needed nutrient.
@@ForOdinAndAsgard lol, that is completely bullshit. Vegans are just as healthy as anybody else. Your "he looks like a walking corpse" is absolute nonsense too, alex loos totally fine here as well as in EVERY OTHER VIDEO where he is STILL vegan
@@ForOdinAndAsgard Its called a tan mate. Fortunately the sun is also vegan friendly ;)
I was born and raised as a Muslim but cosmicsceptic has become my favourite. He has really opened my eyes on alot of issues, and his channel has been incredibly helpful.
@Afifa M So you have nothing to prove that he's giving misinformation, you're just asserting that he does?
You weren't born a Muslim. It isn't a genetic trait.
I'm guessing you're not a Muslim anymore?
You are not born as a Muslim. You were raised as a Muslim.
Similar experiences here. Welcome into the world of freethought and reason. Best wishes on your journey to knowledge 😀
As a meat eater myself (due to numerous practical reasons) i can never defend eating meat ethically. I will however continue to decrease my meat consumption and hopefully become a vegan... It's a process. Cheers
Good on you. Vegans have no problem with meat eaters who have the strength of character to admit it is a moral obligation. There are paths to take and different people have different will power.
I'd suggest getting yourselves emersed in 'earthlings' 'land of hope and glory' and 'dominion'. That should take you over the threshold and hopefully you recognise it to be morally abhorrent and never want to go back.
When asked why I'm vegan I recite my five reasons and always make sure to include the nuance of the one that covers the immorality, how it's immoral as long as the person has the option to not eat meat AND they know they have the option. Not having the option may include various rare health reasons or lack of availability of non-animal items economically but for most these two things aren't a problem unless they're only eating the expensive prepared foods and never cooking their food from scratch. I live in Vancouver, Washington which seems like a typical west coast American city and the vegan diet is cheaper. I splurge on the Beyond Meat stuff to satisfy a craving now and then but it's not necessary. There's a gray area of whether the person doesn't know better because maybe they have been too lazy to find out the truths of their preconceived notions (economics, nutrition, difficulty), and because having a internet available to so many these days it's a stretch for many to make an excuse to not uncover the truth that vegan may in fact be an option for them. It's a touchy subject if they claim a rare medical reason why they can't because they may want to really bad and feel horrible that they can't. It comes down to their due diligence. What if they were just doing the diet wrong and think they have a medical out? Hard to say unless you're that person.
You'll see, it's actually really cool to discover all these new recipes 👌
David H Watch the debate between Alex vs Mohammad Hijab at Oxford: th-cam.com/video/1n-zYRZy5NQ/w-d-xo.html
@@Ciaranhbennett David H Watch the debate between Alex vs Mohammad Hijab at Oxford: th-cam.com/video/1n-zYRZy5NQ/w-d-xo.html
This is the first time I've seen Matt struggle with an argument. Alex is one clever and thoughtful man. Keep up the good work! Subscribed.
I absolutely loved this. I’m not a vegan but I found Alex very persuasive and I’m definitely going to think this over.
Do more then think about it. Do more research in terms of ethics, health and environment. I love meat, believe me I still love the taste (this didn't change after going vegan) but I found it illogical to care about animals and eat them at the same time. I searched for reasons to keep my kebabs and ribs but I haven't found them so I had to go vegan. Good luck on your search friend.
Alex doesn’t have a good argument against non factory farmed meat. He incessantly tried to frame a dichotomy between factory farming and veganism. This was clearly an issue that Matt wasn’t prepared to debate on because Alex’s arguments have gaping holes in them.
@@Journey_of_Abundance Actually it's impossible to raise the majority of animals in non-factory farm settings and feed all the people who want to munch on their flesh, because we simply do not have enough land nor resources to raise these animals with anything approaching humane methods. Also if your pet dog was raised with love and plenty of good food and exercise, is it then right to round up these dogs in a death truck where they will be hung up upside down and have their throat slit by the thousands? "Non factory farmed meat" DOES NOT MEANT HORRENDOUS CRUELTY FREE - and even in so -called non factory farms animals are not given adequate medical care bc their worth is only as much as the weight of their flesh and any vet bills will eat into the "profit". And if you think about it WHY IS AN ANIMAL'S LIFE WORTH LESS THAN YOUR TASTE HABIT? If there is NO NEED for you to round them up and butcher them mercilessly, why would you insist on doing it ?
Allusive Ashly why are you just making that up? There is no data to support the idea we can’t feed everyone non factory farmed meat. However, there is data to support the fact we can feed everyone non factory farmed meat
Interesant raising animals in the same way they live in the wild is absolutely good for the environment. Why do you mercilessly allow animals to be killed for your plant food?
44:00 I can never believe when people make this claim. The dog doesn't have any intristic moral worth? So beating up a stray dog is just as morally neutral as kicking a rock down the road. Does anyone honestly believe this?
I think its an attempt to reconcile morality with legal norms. By saying the problem with hurting a dog is upsetting the owners (same argument is made with killing a mentally disabled child), you keep the legal norm that its not animal suffering that is illegal, but messing with humans property. If you grant that dogs have an independent moral worth, then it would have to be wrong to hurt them even if they didn't have an owner, but that would also make it illegal to kill other animals that were of similar level of sentience to dogs (so pigs, cows, sheep).
It's mainly a problem of people not being able to live with the dissonance of "yes it is wrong but I don't care enough to sacrifice taste and convenience". If you see how meat eaters react to abuse of pet animals its very clear they instinctively recognize the moral worth of other animals they're just trying to build a moral framework that somehow allows for the meat industry at the same time.
aldi throw well said!
Christian Psychonaut777 what do you mean?
Objectively morally neutral? Yes.
But objective morality doesn't exist.
godless heathen I’m not quite clear, are you saying it is morally neutral because objective morality doesn’t exist?
these are becoming my favorite debates/discussions because it really shows how otherwise intelligent people can fall back of completely unsound arguments when challenged on their own morality. when it's no longer hypotheticals or thought experiments, some people just buckle.
Indeed in this same video I saw MD Using the same arguments as theist.
Ok..why are plants better sources of slaughter?
@@philliph8991 Wtf? Didnt you saw the video?
@@philliph8991 what ?...what's did you just say ?
@@philliph8991 Irrelevant
What an amazing conversation!! Thank you for having such and open and non judgmental conversation with Matt. This is the kind of conversation that changes minds respectfully. Also thank you to Matt for being brave enough to have this conversation publicly for others to learn aswell.
Oh Matt was judgemental, he blocked Alex On Twitter a few months after this.
@vegass04 I guess we should be thankful he saved his tantrum for twitter months after this conversation. I suppose he got fed up with his views being challenged.
I'm so excited about this. I found CosmicSkeptic back in 2016 when I was converting to veganism and loved him so much immediately. I remember thinking how awesome it was that there was a calm, kind, and reasonable atheist out there on the internet. (compared to the likes of AIU) And I remember wishing he could be that kind of voice for veganism as well. Here we are now. Thank you so much for what you do Alex!
Alexa D - Don’t you just love how that all works out? 😃 I’m still hoping to see the day Matt goes vegan. I’ve been envisioning it for years, especially being that he’s such a brilliant thinker, and he can help inspire soooo many people in the atheist/ skeptics community 😍
@@TheAndyVegan How dull is your life that you actually look forward to someone you probably don't know deciding to be vegan? 🤣
@Zachary Stewart Atheism can't be, because it's the lack of an ideology, not an ideoogy it itself. Veganism is rational.
@Zachary Stewart Bro, you just watched a 2 hour video on a rational debate on veganism
@Zachary Stewart are you saying you are for animal cruelty and that for your taste habits you will continue to pay to torture innocent animals until they die terrified and enduring unwatchable violence because cruelty is good and "unemotional"? Seems like snacking your lips eating animal flesh is nothing but emotion driven to me.
I hope this is where the "skeptic" community and hopefully more people in general will actually put thought into animal ethics
Says the guy with a hamster profile photo :)))))) (yes u highly agree, btw, i just found it funny)
@@grains425 Not a Hamster, it's a guinea pig
Wujeeta, guinea pigs are not an “it.”
@@AV57 Everything that exists is an "it" by virtue of being an object. I'm not trying to demean the poor things, especially being they're my favorite animal, they get enough crap when they're thrown in frying pans.
Wujeeta, I think that one of the best ways to promote animal rights is to cease referring to them as “it” or “things.” I understand you don’t mean any harm by using those labels, but it does feed into the slave mentality that many animals suffer under.
What a time to be alive (and a vegan atheist)... So awesome to see my two favorite atheists having a discussion!
Vegan atheist club representtt
You're the last person I'd eat if stuck on a deserted island. ; )
There are many of us
@@theveganwujeeta DOZENS!
checking in
This is the only time I've seen Matt present weak arguments. Well done Cosmic Skeptic.
Exactly! He was on the other side, literally heard him using comments and jokes his callers would use. Fun stuff!
@@alonsohdzf I thought it was a really good debate, very informative.... Now I'm off to have me a thick juicy ribeye steak with a side of chicken livers.... I love my eat out days
@@rdm3373 I wasn't when I watched this. I am now.
Hopefully this open the door for you to realize he has more than one area of weak argument. He is absolutely terrible on metaphysics. See David Bentley Hart for more.
@@jonnaking3054 there’s always someone who likes to throw these comments in, happy to troll with nothing interesting to say. Well done
I have never heard such a convincing but respectful argument for vegan. Great job Alex👊🏿👊🏿👊🏿.
Woah... A Southern African name.
Langa more like... Lumbago
veganism is false
@@Johnson-br2lwUncle?
In all honesty, there is not a single reasonable argument against ethical veganism. This is coming from someone who eats meat. Meat eaters just cant admit to themselves that what they're doing is wrong, but admitting you're doing something wrong is the first step. It's essentially taking something you've done forever, and forming your arguments to fit it, rather than changing your actions to fit the arguments that actually make sense
Rage CL i think (almost) everyone in their heart is an ethical vegan. We don’t like to see animals suffer , especially the animals that we adore like pets.Unfortunately, most people don’t act on it.
lol I don't think there are any arguments for it that don't rely on bullshit nondiscriminatory use of empathy.
Agreed mostly. Although I will admit that eating meat is wrong. At the end of the day I just do not care. I don't mind being labeled a moral I don't mind being wrong but I enjoy eating meat and I will never stop. If someone can be vegan, that's great for them but that will never be me. I said before I can eat six meals a day with 50 grams of fat 150 carbs very low sodium almost no sugar 250 grams of protein for $100 a month. I almost primarily eat lean chicken and other lean meat. I almost never eat red meat and my cholesterol and blood pressure are amazing. If I found out tomorrow that eating meat was going to shave 10 years off of my life I would continue to do it. I can acknowledge that it's wrong but it makes me happy and I love it and I will never stop.
@@thickerconstrictor9037 It's just silly. Is hitting a rock wrong? Is hitting a computer wrong? Is hitting a biological computer wrong? you'd do well to incorporate red meat and what not. Dietary cholesterol is not bad for you and higher levels of cholesterol is a marker for better health in old people actually. It's another one of those misunderstood blood markers that can not be looked at by itself.
Just don't eat shitty plants and sugar when eating the meat.
@Gee Shaug Do you think your fleeting taste pleasure is worth more than the life of an animal?
Wow what a pleasant suprise. I thought I was one of few vegan atheists watching this channel but as I look through the comments I see that tons of people are! Hell yeah!
We are everywhere pal
Yes we are
Another one here 🤷🏼♀️
Represent! I'm so happy Cosmic Skeptic decided to go vegan.
Hell yeah bro
How wonderful to see two people having a discussion where they are genuinely trying to understand each other, learning and reviewing their own point of view. All conversation should be like this. Thank you.
Lol, man.....I'm a HUGE fan of MD but it was actually refreshing to see him struggle with such a simple moral dilemma in this video.
I will go with this channel till I find a better one :)
This is what good arguments are supposed to sound like.
"if you don't like factory farms, why do you eat their meat?"
"Who says I do?"
"Idk, do you?"
"Yes."
I'm paraphrasing, but it absolutely was that ridiculous.
There is no moral dilemma.It is the moral choice to eat meat as it causes less animal suffering.
A person can sustain him self with an animal a year. A Vegan kills hundreds of animals every year to sustain himself through the use of pesticides and fertilizers. Millions of living things if you include the insects.
@Maquiavel Arturiano hay doesn't need pesticides, it is fruits weed and vegetables destined for human consumption that need them, and mainly for aesthetic reasons
It's fun watching someone who is known for combating bad arguments make similarly bad arguments and know he is doing it. The human mind is feeble. Stay humble, y'all.
Joel,
Which one are you referring to?
Never mind. I read your comment incorrectly. I assume you’re referring to Matt and I agree.
Yep :)
Oh, care to elaborate on these bad arguments he made? You asserted he made bad arguments and kind of trailed off on explaining how they were...
Yes, the same aspect of the human brain that can both condemn slavery but then fights to justify its presence in their bible is how he approaches some of the veganism topics that come up.
Why does it always seem like skeptics are more likely to use skepticism to justify personal preferences?
Matt is great at being skeptical of the religious beliefs of others, but when it comes to his position on veganism he can't be bothered to do the intellectual groundwork because some people hurt his feelings in the past...
Imagine of you switch veganism in his arguments with slavery.
A bunch of abolitionists called in and made me hate the ideology.
Ouch. Just got to the part where Matt calls the government banning meat a "massive disruption" and Alex responds "just like the 13th amendment"... crickets...
Matt Bradley I think Matt is just uninformed. I think if he actually was interested in the issue he would come around. Many of his argument I think he would refute himself if he did more research. Alex is savage. I personally don’t like slavery comparisons, but the 13th amendment line was just so well placed 😆.
Near the end Matt says "the pleasure aspect often gets shoved off like that shouldn't be an issue" and becomes a level 1 carnist meme.
@@mymathmind I agree. I actually think Matt was close at the end, but changing one's mind in real time, in public, might just be impossible.
Matt doesn’t seem to understand his own views on this. I’m tempted to say that he simply enjoys the convenience of eating meat, and is content to allow his cognitive dissonance to continue in order to protect that convenience.
He's from Texas, that's the barbeque capital of the world.
Everyone's journey is different. Cultures are different
Of course, same as all vegans were at some point. Makes one wonder about what biases we still ignore due to convenience.
It's DAMN GOOD!!!!!! Bears, Lions, etc all eat delicious meat, why do I have to be the ONLY animal who can't enjoy their food?
@@jonnaking3054 have you tried answering that question yourself? Why can lions kill their young and eat them but you find the idea morally repulsive?
Been watching and waiting for this. Loved your appearance with Matt and Steve on the Atheist Experience. Super appreciate your input and perspective Alex - cheers
You took my words 💜
Don't miss the debate between Mohammad Hijab and Alex at Oxford University on Monday 6th.
Glad to see you discussing this topic Alex. Matt is awesome but I think he needs to research this topic further. Looking forward to the discussion with Earthling Ed!
Absolutely great conversation. Good job CosmicSkeptic!
Matt Dillacunty is a moron.
Hey are you the guy that got Unnatural Vegan pregnant? I'm sorry , I dont why but I've always that that it was you. She keeps her private life a secret. I'm sure you wouldn't tell even if it was you but I thought I'd ask anyway.😁
@@melissasahagun5359 since I've never met Unnatural Vegan in real life, that would be quite the achievement. I've only done a couple of colabs with her. I don't know her outside of an email exchange.
TheVeganAtheist Hey look you’re alive!
TheVeganAtheist when are you coming back with content?
He "despises bad arguments".... but trys to use " if we don't kill them they won't just go away"🤔🙄
Yes - Matt used a few bad arguments in this discussion. He has a blind-spot on this topic.
Good point 😂
I hadn't really given much thought to veganism before watching an Intelligence Squared debate a few years back on the subject and it suddenly hit me that I had no good reason to eat meat and every reason not to. I've since not heard a single good argument in favour of meat eating. I'm still just a vegetarian but I plan to change that soon.
You don't need to hear an argument in favour of meat eating. You just need to look at your morphology, your physiology and your biochemistry to see who you are, what you are, and how you should be living and eating in order to maintain a the balance between you and the life all around you that supports you..
You just need to look at the people who live most naturally and symbiotically in this world, the indigenous hunter gatherers of the world which is how we all lived 10,000 years ago. We would not have been able to colonise the Northern latitudes of the planet unless we were naturally able to eat and digest meat.
You just need to note that there are no vegan cultures and societies anywhere in the world, and never have been. That should tell you something about the diet. If it is so good for us you would expect vegan eating to have evolved with us and be widespread throughout the world.
You just need to look at the number of vegans who are unable to maintain their health long term.
You just need to look at the fact that the diet is unsustainable without access to out of season,and non local foods some from half way round the world. In addition, some of these foods require artificial fortification and the diet also requires additional supplements. Most of the world don't have access to this variety of food, it is only the privileged few living a Western lifestyle with the luxury of choice.
Thats awesome bro, Goodluck switching to Veganism.
There are lots of really delicious vegan cheeses (esp miyoko makes great cheese) Enjoy :) !!
mchooksis mchooksis It’s not because humans have been eating meat for centuries and that’s what presumably made the colonization of the north possible that we should continue to eat it. We don’t live like we used to live back then, people would eat whatever they could hunt and find and didn’t have many options. For a long time veganism wasn’t sustainable because we didn’t have access to supplements and so health problems related to a diet without meat couldn’t be avoided. Nowadays we do have this access so it’s not necessary to eat meat. It’s true that some people can’t afford supplements but those who can have the option to be vegan, they aren’t simply because they don’t want to.
GavinJ06 that guy mchooksis is a perfect example of how there are no good arguments for eating meat. And in fact, when you hear things like that, it reminds you going vegan is the right move.
Alex you are so brilliant! This conversation is so detailed, dynamic, and powerful!
Sunshine Day - YESSS! I feel that way too 😊
its also pointless
"those animals aren't going to go away once we stop eating them." seriously dude???
Yeah seriously that's when I realized he really didn't put much thought into this subject
That's not even how it works, unless everyone went vegan overnight. We breed them, that's why there are so many, because the demand to consume is so high.
@@Olivetree80 Right... Like there'd be a severe overpopulation of domesticated cattle if we didn't have billions jammed into cement factories in spaces so small they can NEVER turn around in their entire lifetime..
@@Olivetree80 Nevertheless if we DO stop consuming meat, even progressively, we have to accept that all these animals and their offspring will have to die
@@Olivetree80 Because unless you can pay farmers to keep taking care of those livestock even in ethical ways there is nothing to do with them. And no question of freeing them in the wild either
So I watched this video almost 2 years ago and I hadn't considered veganism seriously and obviously wasn't vegan. Fast forward to today and it popped up as recommended and I thought it would be interesting to rewatch as a vegan.
I remember thinking Alex made good points as usual, but in this viewing he was so charitable to Matt. There are countless times he could have applied pressure the same way Matt does on the show. There are so many things Matt said that make me wonder why he didn't do this. One thing Matt said that really got me, was the accessibility of it. He paints it as though it's impossible unless you're in a liberal city. I'm a vegan in rural USA in a heavily right wing religious area. I'm the only vegan I'm even aware of, yet I find it quite easy to maintain. Eating out is harder, but far from impossible as Matt makes it seem. This upon even simple scrutiny just crumbles. Every supermarket contains enough vegan options to sustain a healthy diet, these are the cheapest options I'm that store even so price isn't a factor. I remember thinking a lot of these points too so I cant fault it too much. It just blows my mind to hindsight see my ignorance and as far as im aware Matt is still not vegan? I don't and have never followed him though so I could be wrong. How someone can know what he knows, admir what he's admitted here, yet remain the same is a display of dissonance he vehemently condemns all the time on the show.
I had watched this right after going vegan and I remember it was a little cringy by Matt. Now after reaching it's even more so. 😬
I rewatched this numeral times and each time I watch it, it just gives me another reason to not go vegan
@@trillion1124 interesting take. I can't think of any reasons not to besides rare cases which almost nobody is in or specific areas which again isn't anyone watching this. The sole reason I've found that most don't is they don't want to, which bluntly isn't a reason.
@@jlayman89it’s a good reason because meat is delicious. And plus vegans are annoying fuckheads and I don’t want to be associated with them.
I have been an aspiring vegan for many years. I just finished lunch that included feta cheese. I forgot to ask to have it left off. I ate it without regret. My daughter was vegan for years, but when diagnosed with Crohn’s disease, she had dropped to 90 lbs (age 27). She fought for 2 years, and finally switched to some meat, and has enjoyed good health.
I bike to work & my car is electric. I don’t expect anyone to do the same.
My goal for today is for my next meal to be vegan. If I fail, no guilt.
I am SO excited about the discussion with Ed!!! Yeah!!! Outstanding!
This video is very thought-provoking and definitely has me thinking about the topic in a way I never have before. Thank you
Go vegan! ❤️
Will, watch the "Best Speech You'll Ever Hear" by Gary Yourofsky. It's on TH-cam. Thank me later.
th-cam.com/video/U5hGQDLprA8/w-d-xo.html
Peter Hofmann I'm only aware of the issue of B12 vitamin not being available in regular, unenriched vegan food, and that especially vegan women should focus on getting enough iron in their diet. But in my experience eating a vegan diet is both healthier and more enjoyable than eating a conventional diet. It's very easy to get started. I recommend you learn to make a vegan chili, a vegan curry or dhal, and a potato dish, and you're off to a great start.
Peter Hofmann Thank you. I'm happy to hear that. And don't worry too much about being perfect. You will learn as you go.
I can promise you that if you focus on getting a lot of colors in your food you will inadvertently have a good mix of micronutrients in there too. "Eat the rainbow" is a good rule of thumb.
Maybe check out some of the mock meats and plant minces while you are transitioning. Aldi has very reasonable prices on these products.
I recommend oatmilk as a substitute for dairy milk in your coffee if you are a coffe with milk -type person. It is tasty and has a nice color and texture.
@Peter Hofmann If you miss meat at first, young jackfruit is a pretty neat substitute for something like pulled pork, when you cook it. It has a similar texture and is great on a bun like a pulled pork sandwich. Cooking it in some kind of sauce is best. I usually get it in a can, in oriental/Asian sections of some stores (I'm in the US). There are other substitutes like black bean burgers, etc. but I don't know of many since I'm not a vegan myself. Definitely do a lot of research and read labels to ensure you're getting the right nutrients, and consider consulting a nutritionist as well.
Alex... i've been a silent follower for a long, long, loooooong time, i'm so glad to see that your channel keeps pushing thought.
Lots of love and respect
Matt - 'i hate when people make bad arguments'
Also Matt - proceeds to spend 1 hour flip flopping around with embarrassingly bad arguments
Obviously he didn’t have bad arguments considering Alex is no longer vegan.
@@trillion1124 that doesnt have anything to do with Matts arguments. I can as a meat eater argue for veganism and if you are using bad arguments then thats just how it is. I may also be a hypocrite for arguing against something I indulge in, but that does not make the arguments themselves any different.
@@m.a.a.d9275 Yep, the classic Tu Quoque fallacy. I also could argue for veganism inspite of my absolute indulgence in eating the flesh. Does this put us in a star of cognitive dissonance?
@@Roserytemptationi mean, yeah, probably? knowing that what i was doing was morally unjustifiable certainly had me experiencing dissonance.
@@scslre We all do morally unjustifiable things when it is convenient for us to do so. I've never seen a vegan give up their phone for example. Yet they say a phone is like a sausage - you don't want to know what's in it. Or something along those lines ... this doesn't disprove a vegan's argument nor does it make them a hypocrite, at least I don't think it does, but you have to admit that it is interesting where we draw those lines. The way vegans feel about their phone is how the majority of meat eaters feel about their food. We simply don't care where it comes from because it's convenient. Is it right? Probably not. But it's not like we live in this constant state of CD because most of us choose to ignore it and then we fall out of the trap. If you look at a chart of CD with smoking cigarettes as the example it's quiet easy to do it. You can either change your behaviour (stop smoking) or you can choose not to believe the evidence. Either way, you won't experience CD anymore over that topic if you do one or the other. Is willful ignorance really the solution I'm advocating for? Yes, it is - I take th3 same approach that you likely take when it comes to using your mobile phone or computer.
I remember when Vegan Gains called into The Atheist experience and I thought " what a idiot not to eat meat". Six months later i am now a vegan. Always keep a open mind. :)
David Brown that’s amazing; I’m thinking of doing the same.
🙌
Bulshit.
that's amazing!
@@caleb3909 It worked for me. You can never tell how people will react and you have further complexities such as long term effect contra short term, seed planting, anger turning into curiosity. I usually call BS on people claiming to know that he makes no or negative difference (not that you did that now).
So glad Alex is a vegan, I remember some of the older videos of him discussing it with Rationality Rules and others and he wasn't yet over the line. Excellent arguments Alex!
He does make great points but at the same time is 125 lb. I know there are vegan bodybuilders but at the end of the day I eat 6 meals a day with 50 grams of fat 150 g of carbs very low sugar very low sodium and 250 g or more of protein and I spend $100 a month. It is very difficult to match all of that with $100 a month and the same nutritional number. Not to mention I'm a very picky eater had although I have found vegan dishes that I enjoy, the cost and the nutritional value does not match up. But even all all that aside, I love eating meat. I don't care if I'm immoral I don't care if people don't like it I don't care if it's wrong I don't care if they made it legal I don't care if I am going to lose 10 years of my life I enjoy eating meat and it makes me happy and I will never change. Now if they now if they can create fake meat at the same cost, same nutritional numbers, same texture, same taste, then I would be willing to switch. And I have tried numerous vegan meats and unfortunately most of them in my opinion are disgusting. I would love to like them but a majority of them I do not like. I'm very picky so people can label me immoral or evil and that's completely fine. I support vegans but I will never be one of them
Not very convincing.
@@thickerconstrictor9037 That's fine, I accept your right to choose to take immoral action, especially when you've been open enough to acknowledge that it is, in fact, immoral.
@@thickerconstrictor9037 the current version of you must cease to exist, replace it with a better version of yourself or you'll never know true enlightenment
@@thickerconstrictor9037 He was underweight before he went vegan. Also a normal, healthy vegan diet is very cheap and easy, as long as you don't overindulge in a lot of vegan "meat" alternatives. Also veganism is a moral choice. I, as a vegan, even if was a bodybuilder, would never put bodybuilding over the life of other sentient beings.
Hey Alex, I admire you more everyday. The first time I tried veganism I failed. I wish I knew some things before:
1- omega 3:6 ratio is very important
2- keep an eye on your iron and b12 levels
3- watch your calloric intake per meal so you don't feel tired
Always choose the path that makes you more human.
Or just eat eggs from your own pet chickens - who live a nice life and don't suffer.
@@SylvanApe This is a serious question, not a troll. What do you do with your male chickens? To have non-fertilized eggs, you need to control your male chicken population. How does a vegan do that within their own systems?
@@craigcompton1 Make a nice "boys only" free range farm where they can live happy lives. Or just use genetic manipulation to get the desired ratio of m/f.
@@SylvanApe That's interesting. Is that not torture though, for the males, to be forced to live in celibacy? And why not for the hens as well, caged and deprived of a fundamental need?
@@BigHeretic So you are worried about chicken sex rights (sorry, too good a chance not to say this). I appreciate the overriding moral stance but how far is the leap to plant rights and your starvation from there? We are an animal, just like any other. I agree that we need to eat WAY less meat than we do, for many reasons including the rights of other life. But I have yet to get a clear reason as to why it's ok to kill some life and not others.
"If you were on an island and had the choice where you didn't need to kill anything you'd do that."
You are in that situation pal!
He's not.
@@jocastushe is
Also, I can't wait to see you with Earthling Ed!
Yes!
2nd this
Make it happen!
Is Earthling Ed an atheist? It would be interesting if Alex discussed with Ed for atheism, like this talk he has with Matt about veganism.
niva2gr I’m not sure if Ed is an atheist or not! But that would be interesting to see :)
I watched EVERY MINUTE of this and I love you, Alex. It was an honor to have breakfast with you in Dallas. Thank you for doing this interview. It means a lot to me personally. I encouraged VG throughout his pursuit of Matt. I've since cut ties. But, just tagged him in a fb post in which I shared this video.
He was in Dallas?! When!
I think MD should look in the mirror... the way he shows frustration when his opposition does not accept the obvious, he's that person now. Very stubborn and a high desire to be right!
Everyone has a blind spot. Hopefully he'll come round one day 🙏
So damn true... Matt has little patience for callers whom he disagrees with and he hates when they are “dishonest” (his favorite word to describe his greatest pet peeve).
@@TheAndyVegan better take another look buddy Matt is professional so of course you don't get it
Yeah dillahunty such a hypocrite. Whenever other people play mental gymnastics he throws the worst, most immature temper tantrums. But in this video, he's doing exactly that! Lol just goes to show not to attach any weight to these narcissists
@@snake1625b He's used to getting easy wins against religious people and overestimated himself. His ego can't accept being wrong
Jeez that was brilliant! I love Matt but if a Christian brought such flimsy arguments to him about god, he would utterly destroy them... and that's exactly what Alex did, but in his unique style. An absolute Masterclass. This discussion is worth watching over and over. I would love a post conversation review on this one... I think I'll be vegan within the year thanks to Alex and Ed. Keep it up guys!!
I respect both of them very much, and they both are extremely good at debating, but in this conversation it was almost painfull to see Matt struggeling to defend his position. It even seems he has no clear position. Suggesting that he hasn't got a clue whether a cow and calf are distressed and feel emotional pain when seperated is absurd.
Maybe Cosmic should have asked him how plausible the idea of animal suffering is to him. Since we all evolved the same way, I don't see it as very far fetched at all that animals also evolved to experience some level of suffering.
As for suffering less than humans... humans most likely experience suffering in more psychological ways than other animals can. But something scary to think about is Dawkins once speculated something interesting: He speculated that perhaps dumber animals suffer even MORE acutely than humans since they don't have the mental capacity to avoid danger like we can so they evolved a stronger sense of suffering to compensate.
As someone who farms and ranches I can say that cow/calf separation can be a huge stress relief for the animals, especially the cows. Matt being on a farm could certainly have seen that as well.
@Guido Stockmans, oh, can you even explain to us all what Matt's position even is?
Neal Mastel as a rancher, I can confirm this is true.
They also walk right onto the killing floor in slaughter houses.
When the pigs are dipped in carbon dioxide they practically scramble to get into the cages.
Trust me, animals want this to happen. I’m a rancher, I couldn’t possibly have any bias one way or the other.
@@jaymiddleton1782 I'm not sure I understand you and Neal Mastel, are you guys saying the mothers WANT to be separated from their calfs, and the animals WANT to die? sounds very strange to me. Haven't worked on a farm but all animals I've seen have a strong self preservation drive, and most mammals have a strong mothering instinct, so I find that extremely hard to believe.
It is amazing to see Matt, who deals with cognitive dissonance from religious people all the time, so caught up in it himself.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Yes, true !
is it Cognitive Dissonance to lament the exploitation of living beings...while using an iPhone? Because it seems vegans tend to focus on the suffering of animals before the suffering of human beings.
@@sTEALtooth said by someone using a computer or a phone lmao
@@sTEALtooth might as well just not do anything at all, right? Because doing nothing is way better than doing something. Can’t save everyone on the Titanic, so might as well leave everyone to drown.
But seriously, we can’t stop every instance of suffering our actions cause. It’s almost impossible. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do as much as we can to reduce it. Going vegan is one of the biggest and easiest things you can do. You’re still using a phone/computer to type that comment, so how can you criticize vegans for doing the same? They’re, to use the above metaphor, at least /trying/ to save break out those lifeboats lol
I love Matt. He has been a great voice for scepticism, and is wonderful at cutting straight to the core of an arguement. However, watching this discussion, I couldn't help but feel Matt was performing some mental gymastics here. I can't say I blame him, it is very difficult to refute ethical veganism. Ultimately, it seems the core of the problem is that Matt can't reconcile the idea that beings have rights regardless of their utility to one's self or one's society with a worldview that procludes ethical veganism. Alex did a wonderful job of illustrating that Matt already holds many moral beliefs that are derived from this principle. For example, do individuals who provide no net benefit to society or one's self still have moral rights? I feel as if Matt does believe the answer to be yes, but he danced around this question instead, realizing that to concede the point would be a pretty big defeater for his argument.
Overall, although the conversation was interesting, I was disappointed with Matt's performance.
Charles B People aren’t animals. Animals don’t have rights. I can’t believe this is a hard argument to understand. My dog doesn’t have rights, neither do any other animals, if you want to accept that or not, it’s the truth.
@@zarakrishan8572 Can you give any moral argument to support that claim? Or is that a position you simply hold on faith?
He is weak in the first two thirths. Then he actually gives Alex a run for his money. Please note that he is fighting the uphill battle since most of his audience is predisposed to agree with Alex's side of the debate. And Alex is a great debater.
@@zarakrishan8572 Well actually some countries have animals rights the same rights as some humans do, and we don't have innate natural rights, we only have rights because we deem it so for society. People are animals.
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
“Those animals aren’t going to go away ....” 😂😂😂😂 Does Matt not realize that “food animals” are bred into existence by humans?
Domesticated chickens would go extinct without humans.... There has already been research on the topic
@@Thanosdidtherighthing So what? Domesticated chickens are mostly just that - a domesticated version of Red Junglefowl which is still widely found in the wild in Southeast Asia. If we stopped eating them probably the majority of domestic chickens would die off over a few years with a few special breeds remaining if people were interested enough to keep rearing them for other reasons. Same is probably true for other "food animals". A few would remain for sentimental reasons but populations would crash.
Hmmmm yes, dogs would go extinct without humans, so let's just slaughter them and breed them into existence, just to kill them and not give them a life worth living. We are soooooooooooo good.
Does that increase or decrease humanity's responsibility for their wellbeing?
@@Thanosdidtherighthing even if that's true, that doesn't mean we should breed them for food. If we are concerned about their survival (which is ridiculous given how fucked their bodies are), we can easily keep them alive in sanctuaries.
I don't usually watch lengthy podcasts, but I enjoyed listening to you both. I hope Matt gives the subject a lot of thought and looks into it. Thanks to both of you.
Weird you mentioned Earthling Ed. Just got onto him and I've decided to go vegan after binging his videos then watching the harrowing film Earthlings.
Same exact thing happened to me, except it was Dominion after discovering and binging Earthling Ed's video's, went Vegan a few months ago.
@@FaultyProgeny Same hahah.
Same happened to me, im going vegan starting next week, im flexitarian now
@Ruby Badilla that's all great and stuff but did you call humans herbivorous?
@Ruby Badilla I'm taking that as sarcasm
What an effing enjoyable discussion! This is what a genuine honest debate/discussion looks like. Kudos to both
Ricardo Soto well at least one of them was being honest lol 😆
@@vegantina6565 agreed! And the other one is asking all the hard questions 😎
Ricardo Soto i see what you did there. You tried to flip it around to make it seem like Alex wasn’t being honest.... wow. Very clever.
But no.
@@vegantina6565 no, not at all! It was just a clever play on words with nothing against anyone in particular.
Ricardo Soto Lol gotcha 👌
Thank you so much for actually pressing for answers as opposed to letting the conversations be derailed
Cosmic Skeptic, one of my new favorite vegans :) You are very intelligent and eloquent man, you have a new fan here.
Wayward Winchester is a vegan?
Another reason to love your channel ❤
@ProtoCoaxke
1. Prove it.
2. Why is that relevant to today?
3. Cognitive dissonance is a phenomena where actions do not correlate with beliefs, it is an internal inconsistency in logic, where is this?
@ProtoCoaxke 1. That isn't a citation, thats just another way of saying "do your own research so that I don't have to fulfill my burden of proof"
2. Because what happened in the past for our survival is not needed in today's hypercaloric society, also, past actions do not somehow justify current ones. We .as have had good reason to eat animals in the past, but not anymore, millenia of progress and modern scientific understanding has shown we can survive and in fact thrive on a plant based diet, we no longer need meat to survive.
3. Being an omnivore does not require us to eat meat, it merely means we can survive on either meat or plants, not that we need both.
Ignoring scientific data such as this? :
The position of the American dietetics association
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
British dietetics association
www.bda.uk.com/resource/british-dietetic-association-confirms-well-planned-vegan-diets-can-support-healthy-living-in-people-of-all-ages.html
British national health service
www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/vegetarian-and-vegan-diets-q-and-a/
Here are a few other studies just to throw around for fun:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK396513/
academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952
This one is a guide for physicians.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/
And here are the results of the largest study ever conducted on the topic:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9860369/
I'll take the actual data over the outdated notion that just because we are omnivores that it somehow negates modern day understanding and up to date knowledge.
(Not that you're going to read a lick of what I posted, but if you don't, and continue with the same line of reasoning, then you can look yourself in the mirror and know you're dishonest and lying to yourself, and we're afraid of reading the scientific consensus)
4. Because we give a shit. Animals don't need to die for our pleasure.
Also, capitalism works on the basic principle of supply and demand, if the customers want it, somebody will supply it. Capitalists only care about what brings them the most green paper, if meat beings them money, they will sell meat, if people don't want to buy meat, supermarkets aren't going to buy stock that customers aren't buying, and farms aren't going to breed and sell animals that don't get bought. If supermarkets find their plant based options selling out, they're going to stick more of it, and we see that as a trend statistically, more plant based options are being sold, there's more variety of options, meat sales are declining, dairy sales are declining, there is progress and it starts with the consumer.
Vote with your wallet if you want things to change.
5. Plants do not let out a scream at all, this is pseudoscience. Until somebody can prove that plants actually have a nervous system, a brain to interpret electrical impulses as pain, and until there is a scientific consensus on the matter, I'll still eat plants. This is also a red herring fallacy, and also a perfectionist fallacy, it also neglects to understand that animals require plants to eat, and the process of converting plant calories into animal calories is very inefficient, so by being vegan, more plants are saved if you supposedly care about plants. The plants feel pain argument has been debunked a million times, and do you really think vegans havent heard that one before?
Intelligent X'D
Eat meat = animals die, die = bad, therefor eat meat = bad. Bad. Except that there's nothing objectively bad, therefor we can choose what's bad. Try again.
"Cognitive dissonance" isn't objectively bad, therefor it's only subjectively bad, bad in your/his opinion. We can choose what's bad, therefor cognitive dissonance isn't bad, bad in my/our opinion. Try again.
@@Bambim8 I agree completely. There is no such thing as objective right and wrong.
Let's put this to the test.
Do you value logic and reason?
They could have just ended this conversation in 2 mins if he said what he was really thinking. "I don't want to stop eating meat, because I like it."
busted =P
I wish some ppl would just come out and say that, especially matt
RobotikEmpire Pretty much
@Zachary Stewart An animal dying purely for your tastebuds. There's nothing wrong with that? I hope you're not against dog fighting. Because that would not be logically consistent.
@Zachary Stewart Do you also pray to colourful crystals and call upon the power of the universe? "It all comes back to the self". I mean, dogs would be great produces of meat. We've just got to Genetically alter them like we have chickens and cows. Pump them full of steroids, select the perfect breeds etc. How long does it take a dog to be fully grown? I mean, they might be great for it.
I get it, you're conditioned a certain way, and you're a complete simpleton. Me asking you to step outside of this is near impossible isn't it.......
Wait....you go out of your way to kill ants? That's a bit weird mate.
Matt got cornered over and over here. Cosmic skeptic had him stuttering and falling over himself halfway through the conversation. Matt constantly dodges and makes poor excuses. You are doing the right thing skeptic. You are a smart guy. Keep it up.
They feed them tho-Matt Dillahunty.
@Freddy McIntire I agree. I am just stating the fact that he was cornered etc, and dodged questions. I respect the debate, but matt knows what he was doing. He debates for a living. I very much doubt he was being logically honest, when he was switching the topic, etc. Im glad he did the debate, but he still loses respect from me in that aspect. If he had of just conceded, and admitted it when cornered, I would be a little more happy.
@Freddy McIntire Yes, you're absolutely right. I wish people wouldn't view responses like Matt's as negative, it only defeats the purpose of having these types of discussions. Plus Matt seemed to say he would look into it more, so may end up being invested enough in the issues to change his mind, which is a very healthy thing for a rational skeptic.
@@corpsecandy2076
He conceded that his main issue might be the fact that he is kind of ignorant about animal rights. He also said that he is in a state of cognitive dissonance. He and his position is to an extent respectable.
@J w I don't understand why your argument seems to be exclusively against Matt? You're right that he's a hypocrite, but if you watched CosmicSkeptic's video on veganism, you know he's a hypocrite as well. CosmicSkeptic's position is that it's immoral to eat meat, yet he still eats it precisely because it tastes good. It's possible he may be even a bigger hypocrite than Matt (which is not to say he's a bad thinker) because while Matt doesn't accept that eating meat is bad, CosmicSkeptic does accept that but still eats meat.
David Lapinski he’s gone vegan. Did you watch this?
I kept waiting for Matt to just admit he's a hypocrite on this subject and move on. He never did.
Apparently never will as he is blocking people on Twitter so he does not have to address it.
I'm enjoying how cosmic skeptic is literally arm twisting Matt and he has no reversal .
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
@@BigHelianthus I don't agree he is struggling in vegan debate, other than that he kicks ass, and he is good thinker who even gave Jordan Peterson very hard time
@@BigHelianthus Exactly.
@@siddharthatwal6633 Well, he fails to convincingly respond to the propositions presented to him and often deflects. I'd say for an intellectual in an intellectual debate that would connotate struggling.
I've only found one somewhat convincing argument against veganism and I challenge you to guess it...
@@cornsockgabz A somewhat convincing argument against veganism? I've got no idea what it could be, do you mind sharing?
Alex: So you would stop drinking milk if you were sure that a cow suffered from her calf being taken?
Matt: Yes.
Alex: And you agree that what happens in a factory farm is undeniably immoral?
Matt: Yes.
Alex: So will you stop supporting factory farms, considering you are knowingly contributing to something you deem immoral?
Matt: Well, see, and I'm not saying you're saying this, but the totally unrelated problem I have with vegans that is completely irrelevant to your question is...
Organic meat is not from factory farms. Alex’s argument for veganism seems to only address this unhealthy way of raising animals when we know there are other forms. Also, his argument from a health perspective seems to ignore that a moderate amount of lean meat helps to provide a balanced diet, and, instead, he really focuses in on highly saturated, processed meat. The method seems slightly disingenuous to me. The argument for veganism seems to only work on an emotivist perspective when considering these other variables.
@@nofame7016 Well, the issue is that Matt wouldn't even concede to giving up *factory farmed* animal products, despite considering them immoral, and was consistently dodging questions.
Additionally, all farm animals are harmed, regardless if it's factory farmed or organic. Besides the slaughter itself, you got dehorning, forced insemination, castration, tail docking, beak trimming, taking babies away from their mothers, genetic mutations from breeding, and more.
It's a common misconception that lean meat is healthy. There are much better sources of protein for a balanced diet, that don't have all the negatives of meat. Such sources include beans, lentils, tofu, seitan, chickpeas, nuts, and seeds. One problem with meat is that it's high in saturated fat and cholesterol, which both clog your arteries and increase your risk of heart disease, and are not exclusive to any form of meat.
You also have toxins that arise from cooking meat at high temperatures, called heterocyclic amines, again, not exclusive to any specific type of meat. Eggs and dairy products increase your risk of prostate cancer tremendously, and so do chicken and fish cooked at high temperatures.
Then there's the loads of bacteria and diseases from meat. You got salmonella, e. coli, yersinia, mad-cow, spanish flu, covid-19, avian influenza, trichiniasis and more.
On top of all that, meat eating is directly linked with obesity, has been shown to cause erectile dysfunction, contains large amounts of hormones (yes, even organic meat), and increases total mortality.
You're right that veganism is about animal rights, and that's because veganism extends beyond food, and opposes all forms of animal harm. But there's a reason why some people eat a plant-based diet, without the motivation from an animal-welfare perspective, and that's because science shows that animal products are unhealthy to consume, and come with a wide-variety of issues that are absent in plant foods.
young old guy From what source are you getting that lean meat is unhealthy? I’ll admit you can get protein sources from other places like beans, soy meat, and vitamins, but certainly you’re not going to lie and say lean, baked or grilled meat is unhealthy. Again, the problem seems to lie with the methodology and capitalistic system for the production of meat. You’re looking at corrupt parts and basing your whole argument on it. Just to clarify, what is your moral system and how does that relate to animals and not plants?
young old guy Also, soy meat, which is the only thing close to being complete in protein source, has a ridiculous amount of estrogen. What type of meat (fried, baked, lean, fatty) is very important in the health argument. Otherwise, you are giving disingenuous statistics. Of course a burger cooked at 500 degrees in oil at McDonalds is bad for you. The same would be true for a soy burger.
Like I said before you can receive many of the nutrients provided in meats through vitamin supplements, but the question is what moral grounds do you have for eating animals as wrong besides an emotivist one, which exists on a personal basis? As a moral subjectivist based on human pleasure, I fail to see Alex’s argument for it, but I’m curious what yours is
@@nofame7016 First, you can look at the nutrition for stuff like chicken and turkey, which are both high in cholesterol and saturated fat.
Yes, grilling meat is unhealthy. Here is one source: www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet
Capitalism certainly makes aspects of production worse, but the unhealthiness and immorality of meat production is not intrinsic to capitalism. For example, killing an animal is necessary if you want to eat meat, regardless of the economic system. So is castration in order for the meat to be tender, so is dehorning in order to keep animals in confined spaces and/or prevent accidents to workers, and the same is true for many other aspects of animal ag.
My moral system is roughly the same as most people's. I'm against harming other sentient beings i.e those that are conscious and capable of feeling pain. If you're against harming humans, dogs, and cats, you could also ask yourself the same question.
That said, plants lack a central nervous system, which is what allows for consciousness and pain-feeling. Additionally, more plants are necessarily killed for an omnivorous diet than a plant-based diet, because you have to feed tons of plants to the animals that you consume, and more plants than you could ever consume in a lifetime. So even if I was morally opposed to harming plants, veganism would still be the moral choice.
I couldn't help but think that if Matt were a caller on a show named Veganist Experience, he would have been told to call back when he had a clue as to what he was talking about.
Well he already had a position on this, he should be able to defend it properly.
@Great White Aren't you pushing your belief on other people that others shouldn't push their beliefs on other people?
@Great White just wondered what your rational ethical/moral argument against veganism is?
@Great White and I didn't say you were. I asked what your rational ethical/moral argument against veganism is? I assume you have one.
@Great White I get the feeling that you don't have a clue as to what veganism is with this comment. Veganism is a moral belief that un-necessarily exploiting animals for food, clothing or other purpose is wrong.
With any moral belief, the people who hold such a belief are going to want to try and convince others of it. When black people were used as slaves, imagine if nobody had done anything - and those against slavery didn't ever speak up - martin luther king never gave that speech - black people now would still be living in slavery. Likewise with women's rights - if the suffragettes hadn't done what they did, women would still have no right to vote. Those people in their time were hated by many others - they were locked up, assassinated and generally got on people's nerves.
Just like Vegans probably are getting on your nerve's. But it's precisely because it's a moral belief. If it wasn't, they wouldn't give a flying fuck what you decided to eat.
1:32:30 is one of my favorite debate moments I’ve ever seen
Shut him the hell up looool it was glorious, shame Alex has chosen to no longer align his actions with his morals but that was a mic drop moment for the ages.
Honestly i think he didn’t even rem what the 13th amendment was at that moment. Think hes was so rattle by Alex
@@Dr.Drakken_I don't think that's what it was at all. I didn't even know what the 13th amendment was, but I knew exactly what it was the moment he said it. This was one of the best moments I've ever seen, as well. I actually said "oh shit" out loud when he said it lol
@@Dr.Drakken_matt is known for his stuff on biblical slavery more than anything, there's no way he forgot
I think Matt needs to watch this one back through,as he’s probably the best person to spot his own fallacies
Love Alex’s reason
first time I've seen Matt Dillahunty clutching at straws
With the pinnacle being the mic drop moment of "the 13th amendment."
You haven't seen many Matt Dillahunty videos then. He is often caught out.
First time? Matt uses straws every time he debates a Christian
@@yena6689 Not at all
@@yena6689 Sure
Thanks CosmicSkeptic for walking the walk.
It's baffling to me how a community which prides itself on rational and ethical behavior has about the same level of veganism as the general public which is decidedly LESS rational.
I disagree. It seems like 95% of these comments agree with Alex.
@@JasonWilliams89 That's the simply the echo chamber of ppl drawn to this video.
Which, of course, is not representative of the cohort I was referencing in my original comment.
Feel free to peruse other Atheist forums and do a study!
I bet it won't be 95% for veganism. I sincerely wish it was.
Regards,
A (fellow?) vegan
@Richard P Dickie's trying to relive his trolling glory days of 2006.
The flat earth videos are over there.
Well simply calling something irrational does not make it so dear vegan friend ;) we meat eaters got reasons!
@Richard P I had a feeling you were just a dumbass from some other comment thread where you actually try to justify eating animals, but now it's clear you are, in fact, a dumbass. Keep going against your own self-interest, we're all rooting for you!
Ask Yourself's characterisation of this as Cosmic 'politley wallopping' Dillahunty is spot-on. Devastatingly clear here, Alex, nice work!
I have never been so impressed by Alex than I am now. It would have been so easy to stay on casually friendly terms with D., who is the kind of guy who manages to induce others to want to remain on that level with him (call it overwhelming gravitas), but instead he stuck to his guns and stood up for the suffering animals. Thank you, Alex.
That segment on veganism was absolutely fantastic. Thanks to both of you!
Vegan Gains did not end up agreeing with Matt, what is he talking about?
They agreed at the beginning, is what he said. But Matt ended up hanging up by the end, haha.
They agreed on talking to each other
Watching Dillahunty go through a logical stroke throughout this video was weirdly satisfying.
Watching Alex do the same thing now is even more satisfying.
Matt really struggled
That’s just called being an atheist.
How so?
Alex is now eating meat! Dillahunty prevails again!!
As a vegan I find Matts arguments the norm. What's refreshing is that Matt remained reasonable enough to talk through his own dissonance
Anthony Clark I agree. It is clear that Matt is being intellectually honest with regard to the reason for the conversation. I admire both of these gentlemen and appreciate the mutual respect shown through this dialogue. This is the reason I support debate. They learn from each other
As a vegan too I encounter a lot of meat eaters who do not stay this calm in a debate and I very much respect that. However I think with some of his arguments I would have the need to hold myself back to not react in a annoyed way
*Anthony Clark* Perhaps you'll know this ; what is Alex's position on grasshoppers. Obviously he won't consume any animal products but what's the ethical position? Is it immoral to kill a grasshopper?
@@BigHeretic Do you know for sure that a grasshopper has a subjective experience? Unless you're fairly certain they don't have a subjective experience, then one should grant the benefit of the doubt to the grasshopper, presume a subjective experience, and extend moral consideration to the grasshopper. This presumes you value sentience in moral decision making.
If you kill the grasshopper and it turns out they are sentient, imo, you have committed a moral wrong.
If you don't kill the grasshopper and it turns out they are NOT sentient, imo, you have committed no moral wrong because NOT KILLING a non-sentient organism is morally neutral. All that will have been lost is you will have denied yourself the pleasure of killing a grasshopper (if you're into that sort of thing.)
Given this, one should err on the side of caution and not kill the grasshopper (presuming this isn't a killer grasshopper and poses no existential threat to you)
I'd recommend Albert Schweitzer's writing on the topic where he discusses the moral virtue of helping a worm back to the grass from the sidewalk after it had been washed out from the rain.
www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/schweitzer01.htm
@@ethologos2580 So...? If you can't be sure that plants have subjective experience are you going to stop eating plants? If not, what is the ethical argument for not killing a grasshopper?
Matt: "there have been factors that outweighed the immorality of eating meat"
Alex: "could you name those factors?"
Matt: ...
*Pauses*
*Sighs*
*Proceeds to talk about the 2016 election and vegans' perception of him*
@ of course, I wouldn't recommend for anyone to compromise their health for any cause. I commend you for your efforts towards preservation of wildlife. I do agree that hunting, if done right, causes far less suffering than animal farms and slaughter houses do. However it is important to recognize that the consumption of other animal products (e.g. products tested on animals, or those that contain leather, wool, fur, gelatin, etc.) still funds the same cruel industries.
Now I'm not sure what your condition is, but I do know that iron absorption is enhanced by vitamin C in citrus fruits. I'd consult with a physician who specializes in nutrition before discounting the possibility of a plant-based diet. Also, with regards to supplements, I have done extensive research, and have tracked my nutrition to get an idea of what needs supplementing. The only supplements I need are vitamins D and B12 (which 42% and 39% (respectively) of Americans are deficient in anyway), and I take them in liquid form by putting a drop of each in my water or smoothies. My blood tests have demonstrated this to be efficient thus far.
And as for plants feeling pain, there's no evidence to suggest that chemical reactions in plants that doesn't involve nociceptors (sensory neurons specific to pain) or a central nervous system cause any perceivable pain. But even if preserving plants is your goal, boycotting animal farming is the best way of doing so. Even the WWF says that beef production is the #1 cause of deforestation, and more than half the grains in the US are fed to livestock. That's why being plant-based is better for the environment and preservation of plants themselves, too. The toxic waste of factory farms hurts the planet, too. I recommend watching Conspiracy (Netflix), and Dominion (TH-cam) to learn more about all the ways we can improve the health of our planet, and all the living beings on it. The Game Changers (Netflix) is also a good one about health and athletic performance.
Cheers, friend.
To be fair, he did have a point in making that diversion which was to say that it's possible he just doesn't care enough about animals, while also admitting that Alex made a strong argument. He's being honest at the very least, and he mentioned that he's not very educated on the matter (yet).
How about the factor that it does not supply the human body with a complete nutrient range it requires?
1:42:00 Alex you presented the argument extremely well - one of the best I’ve seen. To me this is the type conversation vegans should be having with people who are potential allies.
Plenty of vegans are having these types of conversations. Unfortunately the debate is so often shut down by the other sides reluctance to entertain the thought that what they are doing, and have believed to be fine for most of their life, might be wrong in face of good argumentation. Like how Matt conducted himself when he spoke to Richard (Vegan Gains) on The Atheist Experience.
We have to grow up and out of these things you know.
@@NitrogenBullet You really have a lot of growing up if you think Vegan Gains presented good argumentation. This is the problem with our community: we are reluctant of denouncing bad arguments as long as they are for our cause.
@@RanEncounter feel free to elaborate
@@RanEncounter I'm not saying Richard is infallible, but he clearly made majority good arguments in that particular conversation - when he was allowed to talk. By how you come across I don't think I trust you to know good from bad arguments.
Secondly you won't be able to provide proof that vegans are reluctant to denounce bad arguments. I have lots of arguments for "our cause" that i never use, exactly because i think they are bad.
I squirmed as I watched a highly intelligent man struggle to hold on to his bit of ignorance!
He has always been biased against god
@@Jonathan-tw4xm Matt used to be a devout believer on the path to becoming a pastor and then eventually a minister, you don’t know what you’re saying.
@@moldytomato9130to be fair devoutly religious people that lose their religion tend to live out their fanaticism in some other way. Often in the form of being extremely anti-religion
I think this is the weakest argument I've ever heard Matt's made or the one he'll ever make !!
Alex is an absolutely brilliant debater and asked all the right questions, while not really being forceful, allowing us, the audience to see glaring faults in Matt's arguments !
Our boy's gonna be an intellectual heavyweight !!
*I mean 'boy' in the most adoring possible way !!
I cant believe matt didnt make the obvious argument myself. This is an easy one to defeat
@@philliph8991 what's the "obvious argument"?
@@Gabriel-pj2fc many. The most basic, plants are life too. Plants can feel and feel pain in a sense
Phillip H While I don’t disagree at all with this statement, it’s important to remember that any problems with growing and eating plants are only magnified when applied to growing and eating animals. The animals we eat themselves eat plants, and we get a very small portion of those calories back in the form of edible meat, dairy, or eggs. So the total amount of plants that die to sustain a non vegan is actually far greater that the amount needed to sustain a vegan.
@@philliph8991 Surely you must have heard that argument debunked a million times by now?
1. Plants have no brain or central nervous system, which means they can't feel anything.
2. 80% of the plants we grow are fed to livestock so if we really care about minimizing harm to plants, a plant-based diet is still the way to go.
@Matt I have great respect for you, but please don't say "I hate when people make bad arguments" to dismiss veganism off hand.
You just spent over an hour stringing bad argument to bad argument.
Veganism is a slippery slope sir. If we give the same rights to life to all animals then what is next? Will pecidicide be banned next because bugs will suffer? Insects feel pain and billions of insects are killed every year.
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq that ain't no slippery slope. It is a necessary discussion to have and we need more science to make good decisions about the issue.
Using pesticides by the way is a topic that needs to be critically disected anyway, since we have huge problems with them killing to many beneficial insects, which hurts us humans as well.
He did spend over an hour stringing bad arguments together but...
Michael, you got it out of context. CosmicSkeptic was asking why veganism was something Matt avoided talking about as a subject. Matt clearly isn't dismissing veganism. He was explaining why and how he's known for dismissing veganism on the show, 'The Atheist Experience'. In the same breath he went into how veganism isn't relevant enough to his show to address to the utter exhaustion that the audience may have wanted to in the past. The context was essentially, "Not only is it irrelevant to that show, but the few callers who do bring it up make horrible arguments and I'm not gonna waste that sort of very limited time there. Which is why I'm here to talk to you instead."
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq That would absolutely be a slippery slope if that's what was being advocated for. Veganism doesn't simply presuppose that animals have equal rights to life as humans do. Because they don't, and we all know that. Lots of vegans defend affordable healthcare, but you're never going to see a vegan arguing for affordable healthcare for a deer or something.
Ethical veganism is a conglomeration of different beliefs. I'm not vegan, but I can plainly see that people are vegans for different reasons. It's not like this is some hard push to blur the line between humans and other animals.
@@stealthbeastgaming I have to disagree here. Firstly Matt dismissed Veganism off hand on multiple occasion.
Secondly he was presented with some good arguments in this (and prior conversations) and answered them badly and with inconsistencies.
And finally...
Lots of vegans called his show, until he started hanging up on them and saying he doesn't want to talk to them.
Matt pretends to be a humanist but isn't willing to have a real argument about an important moral issue.
On the calls I could see over some of this.
But in this interview he showed me that he is just another white old dude who has settled his position and thinks he knows better than others.
WOW! Matt...
You said, if you felt that a cow goes through phsychological stress when it's calf is taken away you would stop drinking milk.
Go visit some dairy farms, and just watch both the cow & the calf, not just when it happens, but for days afterwards.
You will stop drinking milk immediately.
He practically said he watched all of that
And still it wasn't clear to him
I don't know what one can say to that
@@Phoenix-King-ozai I do. People will go to all sorts of lengths to justify their beliefs, no matter how unjustifiable they are. This is clearly the case with Matt and eating meat.
@@Solidude4 I agree
But since its a subjective thing
We can't prove that he is full of shit
Which is what he is banking on
Alex cut his bs so many times in the video
He should just have admitted he was biased
It would have been a lot more honest
@@Phoenix-King-ozai Exactly. Even before Alex went vegan he was honest and admitted he can't morally justify it and I respect that a lot. Like, keep eating meat if you really want to but don't come up with BS reasoning for why you think it's moral to do it.
@@Solidude4 Ikr
The hypocrisy pisses me off
I am just a Vegetarian now
I need to have milk because of the circumstances
But i know that cows are horribly treated
I accept that Vegans are doing a better job of reducing suffering than me
Matt flat out stated that he doesn't think its immoral to kill animals
Because of lack of some social contract or some garbage
I bet he would have been a slave owner if he lived in that time
His excuses are just that shitty
Editing to say, outstanding episode, Alex!
I don't eat animal products of any kind for spiritual, moral/ethical, health and environmental reasons. I did, I am ashamed to say, for most of my life before realizing that NOT killing and eating, harming, or exploiting other sentient beings (even the ones whose cognitive capabilities are not obvious to me) is a hands down, inarguable, no-brainer. In my opinion, arguments to the contrary are exercises in intellectual sophistry solely for the purpose of rationalizing one's own immoral choice to do otherwise.
Ever engage in an intellectual discussion about the concept of "love and morality"? How is it ever loving/ moral to kill and eat or exploit a creature who isn't harming or threatening me in any way and who has as much right to live as I do, when there is an abundance of healthier, more environmentally compatible and easily sustainable plant foods and products readily available?
Amazing guest, really looking forward to this one. Over the last couple of years you have truly been putting the "skeptic" back into youtube skepticism, Alex, and I'd like you to know much it is appreciated. Really looking forward to the growth of your platform. Thank you foremost for your honesty and authenticity.
A "skeptic" who isn't just an anti-sjw
I can understand Matt's hesitation to change over to veganism. I think the missing piece is culture. Matt's family and personal culture involved eating meat. It's the same for religion. It's part of our family's culture and it's not that easy to pull away from it. FYI i've been vegan for 27 years.
David Nickarz i think culture is actually not a good justification for animal consumption. There are a lot of other cruel cultural acts that we despise
@@2702-i9i I don't think it's a justification, it's just something we have to overcome. If you ask why more people aren't vegan, I think culture is a big part of it. The good news is that vegan food is becoming part of the larger culture.
Not only that, he's Texan. I mean, Texas is pretty much BBQ Meat-Eater mecca of the planet. It's a gigantic part of their culture - possibly more so than anywhere else on earth.
Volt 9000 It’s as easy to be vegan in TX as everywhere else (from a vegan Texan living near the Mexican border from a hunter family). Plus if you’re from Austin, you’re spoiled with all the vegan options, I think it’s like the 2nd or 3rd best place to be vegan in the US.
@@vrios6579 Really eh? I stand corrected
Excellent discussion. Thank you for this! And for your activism!
Wow, MD is normally as solid as stone, to have CS take him out for a dance was fascinating.
We throw so many red herrings in because we don't want to say that we are not willing to give up on the taste.
And that is the reality
I'm sure I wasn't alone in a few eye-rolls at Matt's arguments. Get Ed Winters (Earthling Ed) on here, these are the sort of arguments he deals with daily. Great job by Alex here. Big up the vegan atheists x
Lol when he said earthling ed I knew he was for real. #veganjesus
Kate Gleave actually you're being brainwashed by a cult that claims to be a part of the skeptic Community but isn't based on legitimate studies. The only reason why vegans do so well is because the ones who do it right eat fresh Whole Foods and not processed garbage. It has nothing to do with the fact that they don't eat meat because if I were the case humans we be naturally herbivores and we would have never ever evolved the intelligence that we have now which was the result of us having to hunt.
Gee Shaug Delusional! Matt's arguments are atrocious and unresearched.
Kate Gleave it is true he didn't do so well in the debate but it doesn't negate the fact that vegans like to spread lies to let people into believing that we are all natural herbivores even though our human evolution contradicts that thoroughly
Levi Matthews Never met a vegan who claims we are herbivorous. We are omnivores. We CAN eat both. Difference between us and other omnivores is moral agency. We CAN live and thrive on a whole foods plant based diet. It is our view that we SHOULD.
I’m so proud of Alex for actually following up his beliefs with action in becoming vegan :D I’m not even vegan myself but this makes me so happy
I still don't get the argument of moral superiority of defying the natural order by eating only plants instead on both animals and plants as we are supposed to do by biology.
@@TheNezharMC actually biologically we are closest to herbivores and frugivores. Animals that are meant to eat meat can actually TEAR THE ANIMAL FLESH DIRECTLY form their body and just EAT everything
@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 Tell that to the canine teeth. Also our brain is as big as it is because of the increased nutrient income. Well if you want to become an Australopithecus afarensis again, go with it.
Our ancestors were frugivores indeed, that's why we have most of the teeth for that purpose, although not all of them. Also by ancestors I'm saying the Australopithecus as all Homo hominids were part carnivore.
Homo erectus had better speed for persecuting prey, for example. We had better brain to make traps and advanced weapons. It is always a system to gather food, nonetheless, and fruit is easy to come by, specially in african jungle or savannah.
@@TheNezharMC the animals with the biggest canines are vegan.
@@YourVeganFriendTonia Our canines aren't as big and in the same form as them, they're the canines of a carnivore + the teeth in the last part are of a frugivore , thus, we are omnivores. Like boars. That was strangely poetic.
Matt sounded like someone that calls in to his show and has a blind spot that he tries to illuminate.
Which might be why he doesn't bring up the topic.
Oh my God how frustrating to watch! Why is he dodging all the questions? This is really embarrassing for Matt.
In his defense, he admits this is the longest conversation he's ever had on the topic. I think this is about as well as it could have gone for someone's first time hearing all this. Maybe I'm biased, but I see my own cognitive dissonance and naive bias not to change my eating habits in his responses. It took me a long time of reflection to realize my hypocrisy and I hope that Matt will eventually reach the conclusion that seems so apparent to us here on the other side of it
It never seizes to amaze me how some of the finest minds still wrestle with this very simple issue. You can tell he hasnt quite worked any of this out
I AM MANY; what seems simple, such as whether altruism exists, has been debated for at least hundreds of years. I'm not as old as Dawkins but I am older than Dillahunty. When I was a university undergraduate taking philosophy this very issue was being debated. My professor told the class that he had been in a debate about whether altruism existed. So, it doesn't surprise me at all that a long running debate in philosophy could not be settled in this video.
Maybe before you try and call into question someone else's way of thinking, you should learn the difference between "seizes" and "ceases". Which is what you actually meant. Just saying. Lol
@@catPENGUINpony thats really good point. You should be proud
If you ever needed proof that Dillahunty's 20 years as an Atheist Call-in show host stems from inner resentment and (probably) repressed trauma, and not some kind of desire to be altruistic to the human species by spreading atheism- this is it. He clearly hasn't spent much time thinking about any ethical issue outside of Atheism and isn't even able to form good arguments in real time. This is pathetic.
Sun Flower; it's possible that you are right about Dillahunty.
I have some different thoughts about the matter.
- Is Matt on his call in atheist program resentful? Maybe.
It's also possible that the atheist experience has a bigger audience with Matt.
- The other more empathetic hosts of the program will let the theists ramble on more about their theories/experiences about God and then the topic can get sidetracked. The extended circular reasoning could lead to fewer viewers.
- Matt’s tough responses as host mimic certain reality TV shows. It's a more popular format imo even though sometimes it turns me off.
* As for criticizing Matt because he has not thought through certain ethical issues in this video, I found many of cosmicskeptic’s examples to be very abstract. For instance, what if you killed an innocent person and then you forgot about it? I'm not going to think such a scenario through because I would never do that. Even in terms of an example of philosophical discourse I don't think it's very productive to consider this.
Another example involves parents who want their children to not do well in college because it's all about the parent’s pleasure?
- I took a couple of university philosophy classes. I did well in them but I just wasn't interested in the types of discussions which are very removed from the way people behave.
I ended up being a psychology major and I stuck with that throughout my career.
* Back to Matt; his motivation for leaving the path to become a minister is an interesting one. He doesn't touch on that very often. I don't recall him ever discussing why he became an atheist activist. Something to ponder.
Its amazing how well you understand the vegan philosophy after only being exposed to it for such a short period of time. you absolutely nailed this. well done.
FWIW I didn't get to veganism for ages. It took over a year. I started by going flexitarian for the environment. Then I found out just how bad meat was for the climate and environment so I went veggie. Then I found that to be easy so started cutting out cheese because its carbon footprint is so bad. Then Veganuary came along an I thought, "sure, why not?". Then i thought, "that wasn't so tough" and stayed mostly plant-based. Then I heard Alex talk about the ethics of animal agriculture and I adopted veganism as a SECOND reason to stick to plant-based food.
I think this incrementalism can be really good for people who are deeply entrenched in a meat-saturated culture and worried that they can't go vegan.
Veganism isn’t a diet btw
@@lilithpadilla i mean, it is. but it isn’t *only* a diet
@@astronymity veganism in itself actually really has nothing to do with diet, only if you want to live by this philosophy then the conclusion sure leads to a plant-based diet, this yes.
EDIT: so you would rather speak about a vegan lifestyle or philosophy and about the plant based diet that fits that vegan lifestyle. The same can be seen when people speak of "going vegan for health reasons", but as the animal rights and welfare are not addressed, it is actually only "moving to a plant-based diet for health reasons".
This should not sound pedantic, but it is an important difference, as especially the media and society just throws ethical vegans and "fitness/health people" into one pot.
So most of the time when you hear about "ex-vegans" it is actually just somebody that gave up their plant-based diet and not that an ethical vegan lost his way.
Great, I really enjoyed that, I have seen and enjoyed Matt D in many forums. I hope he does go and investigate It would be a real step forward to have him speak for the movement.
I've never seen Matt struggle so much in a conversation.
Often moral argument is significantly a personal abstraction. If you ask if it’s moral to be a serial killer or rapist, most often the discussion isn’t being done by murderers or rapists. In this case Matt seems unwilling to quantify or unaware of the social pressure that contributed to his animal consumption. This social pressure isn’t a small factor. If selfishness is a significant or even the only motivation for everything a person might do, then the social conformity of a family tradition, shared recipes and experience is powerful and is contradictory to the moral dilemma. It’s not just standard cognitive dissonance, often people are aware of how they’ll suffer or lose if they act on an issue that the majority accept.
In topics you don't put a lot of time into it's very common for people like matt to have to spend a lot of time choosing words very very carefully. I do it all the time.
@@Bigislandchef This is very true. It's something we're so used to see everyone doing without question that it must be the right thing to do.
Also, when I went vegan I realized how painful it was to finally confront the reality, considering my past choices. It was like I was retroactively experiencing a form of trauma. I guess subconsciously we know something's not right, but maybe you have to be vegan to experience this.
But being vegan does make one an outcast. You need to have very strong will and determination, because it's something that if you decide to quit, everyone will celebrate.
@@MrKry
"we're so used to see everyone doing without question that it must be the right thing to do."
While not a satisfying foundation for ethics, it is one with great predictive power.
The often used hypothetical "what if society as a whole decides slavery is moral' is not a hypothetical, and actually has a straightforward answer.
I was about to post the same LOL
You should’ve treated him as he was in “the vegan experience” cause his only argument was: oh! what you say it makes total sense, but I don’t want to go vegan, cause I don’t want to.
Everyone has a blind spot. This is Matt's. Mine too. 🤷🏾♀️
@@moimeself1088 The problem in this case is more about the theoretical side. The debate is not about turning Matt (or you) vegan on the spot, it's about acknowledging that you would theoretically have a obligation to do so. If you acknowledge that you have a obligation, but you choose to make it "a blind spot" then you get the point at least
@@dean7603 i'm not necessarily persuaded by all the moral arguments made by vegans. Having said that, i acknowledge that my reluctance to give up meat is also based on taste, preference and convenience. I have tried just going vegeterian or vegan at different times ... for a day or a week, etc. I enjoyed some of the meals but found the experiences unsatisfying overall, esp the vegan periods. It was too difficult to avoid animal products, and even went as far as making my own mushroom based burger patties for one of our meals. But forgetting that some things are animal products (e.g. adding cream, butter, cheese, etc) made me feel like i failed. I also just prefer the taste, and found the alternatives less enjoyable.
Anyway, for some reason i have been more persuaded by the environmental arguments than the animal rights ones. I have cut down on my consumption of meat. But i also know that i'm probably not going to make a full lifestyle change.
Sorry if that offends anyone. That's my truth.
@@moimeself1088Again, I'm not interested in changing your behavior, but I'm always irretated by meat eaters so willingly denying the relevance of morality. We can debate about a definition of morality, but you wouldn't be able to draw a relevant line between humans and animals. So yes you can discount morality as a concept but where does that leave us?
So why would a rape be "wrong"? If you dont agree with any concept of morality than it just becomes a matter of interest conflicts and force,doesn't it?
moi meself Sounds like you have an inability to be morally and logically consistent then. Objectively speaking, when does pleasure take more importance of someone else?
"Vegans are cherry picking" *whips out combine harvester argument*
All arguments start with cherry picking examples to enhance a key point.
Which is hilarious because most plants and soya are grown for animal feed... so if he was concerned about combine harvester deaths, he’d still support veganism!
You're surprised that people pick examples that demonstrate their points? You must go through life with your mouth hanging on the floor.
Tom H but killing far more by eating meat. Our mere presence on earth means we have an impact... it’s about reducing it. Meat eaters claim that veganism is hypocritical because there are crop related deaths in all food, ignoring that the majority of crops are grown for animal feed making it inefficient. Facts beat fiction.
How about the deer shot to protect apples? Crows shot to protect sweet corn? How about colony bee collapse due to glyphosates to protect crops for human consumption? How about pesticides causing malformation to aquatic animals? How about the loss of wild habitat especially wetlands to growing food for human consumption. How about the absolutely vile things humans have done to dogs to make them the perfect, and oh so cute, human companion even when it causes negative health issues? How about all of the ducks that are killed to protect rice crops. How about we stop commercial animal farming, stop feeding cattle on corn which causes them suffering because they cannot digest it and we stop feeding them hormones but instead let them forage on the land that cannot be used for any plant/grain farming and then kill them for food in a way that is humane. BTW is it not okay to imply that the combine harvester argument is cherry picking, go out and follow a harvester, it is a massacre. And just a note that is not about the ethical argument, or not yet, if vegans get to force their agenda and the world is made vegan...and supplementation becomes a completely necessary component of life...what then the cost of vitamin B12? If the cost of insulin in the US is a clue ... too bad so sad for the majority of the worlds poor.
Amazing Alex, I’ve only just discovered you and your content and I predict you will go far and the impact you’ll have will be recognised…. ;) great intellect and you articulate and advocate so well.
Matt needs to do more research on impact of meat eating on health, climate, natural resources, ecology etc.
human health?
@@isacsilva6685 The impact on animal health is obviously not great so yes, human health. It is possible to source carefully and eat selectively so I am not saying we must all be vegan, just conscious of our impact. i1.wp.com/iamahoneybee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/ng-hidden_water.jpg.
www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-a-livable-future/projects/meatless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html.
And this - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26780279.
And the fact most vegans quit due to ill health. We aren’t gorillas or cows and most people aren’t constitutionally capable to only eat plants. Shipping plants from all over the world isn’t good for carbon emissions. There are ways to produce beef without environmental harm. The same can’t be said for crops.
GB where is your evidence most vegans quit due to ill health? People eating plants flown from all over the world are usually omnivorous - people that eat both meat and plants. You also don’t seem to know that the food we feed cattle is also flown from all over the world - the reason people in Brazil were setting parts of the amazon on fire was to clear it to produce feed for beef. Not only do we feed most of our crops to animals (flown from all over the world) but we actually ship these animals half way across the world too. 14,000 sheep were found drowned in a cargo ship headed for Turkey. You simply are misinformed if you think that less energy goes into making animal products than plants. Remember, these 56 billion animals killed every year are fed with plants - all of that water and energy gone into one tiny serving of meat. Besides, plants don’t produced methane, manure and urine which make river water and soil toxic. You need to do more research.
@@philominakilgour2607 regenerative farming! no need to feed cattle agro food. eat more food from animals means less international shipping of plants. simple. just need to convert the factory farms to regenerative farming. forget the vegan experiment. all the nonsense about pollution and environment and water etc is about factory farming. not advocating for that (although a lot of those 'facts' are exaggerated but that's another subject).
Hell yeah. What's up atheists and vegans
Vegans can't make any headway with christian right-wingers, so they are trying their luck with rational Leftists. They'll fail just as they have always failed.
rstevewarmorycom And why is that?
@@garax1548
Nawh, that's one of those bullshit vegan lies, it's like christian converts to islam, the muslims won't tell you that they fall away and reject islam at the same rate.
Im thriving rn
@@rstevewarmorycom if you had any awareness of the world around you, you'd know that's so fuckin wrong. From a non-vegan, I can objectively say that the vegan world has expanded GREATLY in the past few years, not only evident in the open debates online, but also in the food industry itself
1:10:05
alex: if there was an option that guaranteed that you weren't eating factory farmed animals, would you take it?
matt: yes
alex:...
matt: well, actually no
So, he says something, and then after having a moment to consider it further, decides that he spoke too soon. Doesn't sound nearly as gotcha when phrased that way though.
@@puckerings he didn't "consider it further" lmao. he realized he had backed himself into a corner with faulty logic and started backpedaling.
@@cb-akp Yes, that's one biased way of putting it, I agree.
@@puckerings ok guy 👍
I would. I would not eat at restaurants and only hunt for meat. Now I have a whole side of. Y family that raise their own chickens, eggs free range and hunt for the homeless which led to them hunting for their meat exclusively. That meant no more beef but no big deal. Venison is lean and better for you. How do you side step people who have totally avoided the meat industry altogether? This stays within the nature of the question. So dont be dishonest and spout that it still kills animals because that was not the question.
You are a champion. I really enjoyed this conversation
"selective empathy" that is so true
@empress> there is no such thing as universal empathy. It's all about where you draw the line. Which begs the point that either is subjective.
@@PLF... Empathy need not be a binary, you can extend differing levels of empathy. So it's not just about where you draw the line, but what factors influence the levels of empathy in several situations.
Going vegan 10 years ago was seriously the best decision I ever made.
I've been without meat for a little over 1 month now, i just wanted to see how my body reacts if i dont eat any meat.
Feels really good and i don't actually want meat anymore.
@@GaleGummola being vegan and not eating meat are not the same
@@dodumichalcevski i know, just shared my experience.
@@GaleGummola ouh okay
well thank you
but it is like you said
you dont feel a difference in your body.. maybe only bloodpressure
@@dodumichalcevski actually i said i feel the difference. Much less fat in my diet now and lost weight.
Probably the most complete and balanced argument I've seen for veganism in a long time.The ethical argument is the hardest to make and often descends into personal attacks while the ecological necessity for veganism is essentially bulletproof at this point and you could see Matt had no reply to it except to claim he needs more info and couldn't rely on the facts as presented here. If an opponent of his did the same in a religious debate I doubt he'd be as understanding. Well done.
The ethical argument is easy, but it requires backbone. It requires a debater to point out the prejudices that are necessarily employed against nonhuman animals to justify exploiting animals.
@@AV57 The issue that's always arisen for me with the ethical argument is whether or not it works in all contexts, and if not then is it really of use? I'm sure we've both made enough attempts at arguing the ethics to have learned that telling ppl how they're fundamentally wrong about something is not the easiest way to foster agreement! For example, could it be meaningfully put to ppl who, by necessity, need meat in their diet? These being hunter gatherer societies, small scale subsistence farmers and nomads to name a few. I think it would be absurd to approach ppl of this kind in this manner, and they would most likely, and probably rightly, laugh at you. These ppl are generally living in small scale, very sustainable ways and to have a profligate westerner 'enlighten' them as to the error of their ways would be nothing short of insulting I think. If groups of ppl exist who are fully justified in their use of animals for nutrition, among other things like clothing obviously, then that opens up enough of a hole for meat eaters generally to make shit of the argument. Of course it must be argued that we should treat animals with dignity and respect at all times but extending that out to the entire negation of their use for food, when all of history is weighed against you, is a damn hard sell in my eyes, especially when the ecological argument excels here since it gains strength the more it encounters belligerent self interest. Unfortunately getting ppl to act selflessly will always be harder than the opposite and that's why I think ethics, while laudable, is the loser here.
sierrabianca, that’s why you have to have a good ethical argument, as opposed to a bad one. Sure, approaching these types of people with an unsympathetic and half-baked Disney version of an argument will get you laughed at, but that’s not what we should do. Start with the basics, like prejudice. Animal exploitation relies upon accepting prejudices. So, showcase the faultiness of that. Eventually, they will hit a wall and be forced to either lie to themselves or change their perspective on the matter.
@@AV57 There are reasons beyond ethics to be Vegan, and there are reasons beyond prejudice to kill animals. For some it's a survival imperative. If your 'good' ethical argument undermines these ppl's fundamental ability to live in the world, is it still an ethical argument?
@@sierrabianca, animal rights has never asked anyone to put themselves in genuine mortal danger to extend rights to nonhuman animals--just as human rights has never asked humans to put themselves in mortal danger for other humans. If you are stranded on an island with nothing to eat, but a human, the conclusion is not that the human rights argument is bad--it's that human rights is not a possibility in that specific scenario. The same logic applies to the types of scenarios you presented above, but in regards to nonhuman animals' rights.
Never seen Matt dodging so many questions before.