Grower CHAMPAGNE vs. Grandes Marques - Can I taste the difference?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2023
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I use this wine key: Forge de Laguiole Ebony
I have used this glass in this Video: Riedel Vinum Champagne
I have tasted the following wines in this Video:
Egly-Ouriet Les Vignes de Vrigny Premier Cru Brut, Champagne, France#
www.wine-searcher.com/find/eg...
2006 Pierre Moncuit Grand Cru Blanc de Blancs Brut Millesime, Champagne, France
www.wine-searcher.com/find/pi...
Piper-Heidsieck Essentiel Cuvee Extra Brut
www.wine-searcher.com/find/pi...
2017 Marguet Pere & Fils Ambonnay Grand Cru Extra Brut Rose
www.wine-searcher.com/find/ma...
The 100 Point Scoring System (from www.robertparker.com):
96-100: An extraordinary wine of profound and complex character displaying all the attributes expected of a classic wine of its variety. Wines of this caliber are worth a special effort to find, purchase, and consume.
90 - 95: An outstanding wine of exceptional complexity and character. In short, these are terrific wines.
80 - 89: A barely above average to very good wine displaying various degrees of finesse and flavor as well as character with no noticeable flaws.
70 - 79: An average wine with little distinction except that it is soundly made. In essence, a straightforward, innocuous wine.
60 - 69: A below-average wine containing noticeable deficiencies, such as excessive acidity and/or tannin, an absence of flavor or possibly dirty aromas or flavors.
50 - 59: A wine deemed to be unacceptable.
The epic battle between David and Goliath, the giant vs the regular person, Rocky vs Apollo Creed is a story that appeals to us as we all feel like the underdog sometimes. This is one of the reasons why there is growing interest in Grower Champagne. These Champagnes are produced by small independent Vignerons that handle everything from the vineyard to the cellar as opposed to the Grande Marques that purchase grapes in order to make vast amounts of standardized Champagnes.
For today Leon picked 3 Grower Champagnes and one Grande Marque and I will taste & rate them and try to identify which ones are the Davids and which one is the Goliath… Most people have heard of the big Champagne Brands like Moet & Chandon, Veuve Cliquot, and Ruinart. Few consumers know that these three are all owned by LVMH - a French multinational holding. Other famous Champagne brands are also large-scale producers like Louis Roederer, Taittinger, and Bollinger.
They are so big that - while they usually own large vineyards - they cannot source all of the grapes required to produce millions of bottles from their own vineyards and therefore have to buy grapes from other sources. In the second half of the 20th century, vintner-winemakers started to promote the fact that they are small and different and Grower Champagne developed into a counter-movement to the big brands that used to and still do dominate the region.
A real grower Champagne can be identified by the abbreviation RM which stands for Récoltant-Manipulant or Vintner-Winemaker but there are some smaller producers that also purchase grapes and make wines that would be considered Grower Champagne. The key here seems to be that they are small-scale, artisanal producers that focus more on the terroir of their vineyards and are less interested in producing homogenous mass market bubbles.
But this is obviously not very clear-cut. These producers are legally identified by the abbreviation NM - Négociant manipulant or merchant winemaker - just like the big brands but their philosophy would be more in line with Grower Champagne producers … So if you want to make sure that you are getting pure Grower Champagne then check for the abbreviation RM and if you want to drink Champagne from a small producer then talk to them or research them. I don’t think Grower Champagne is generally better than the big houses. I actually still think that the big houses produce better Champagnes at the top level.
Grower Champagnes can, however, be more interesting and just different. I have three real grower Champagnes and one widely distributed NM Champagne in the lineup and they could cost roughly the same. That’s all I know.
I am going to taste the wines to see which ones are good and which ones aren’t and I am trying to find out whether you can actually taste the Grower in Champagne.
"My years of training as a Master of Wine tell me this is rosé Champagne".
Good to see that all those years of intensive training has lead you to this level of expertise! 😉🤭
Many years ago I went to a well organized Champagne tasting with about 100 different bottles from farmer producers to the most well known brands. I listed them in preference without looking at price. The result was a revelation.
My favorite wine was a farmer producer and the cheapest of the night for $35. The next was a known producer $285. And the 3rd another small vintner at $45.
Until then I hadn’t even known Champagne had producers other than the big brands.
Now I know how to find a grower champagne! “RM” on the back. Thanks for the great content!
I have a mix of Grande Marque's and Grower Champagnes in my cellar. My choice of GM's is Billecart-Salmon, Gosset and Pol Roger whilst I have been a fan/follower of Tarlant, Launois and Ruffin for many (many!) years (since the mid 1980's) and have a few bottles of vintages back to 1985. I also like English fizz, in particular Nyetimber and still have a couple of bottles of their second vintage (1993). I last opened one of these last December and it was simply stunning and am looking forward to opening another later this year.
I don't understand nothing about the wine or champagne world but i still enjoy your videos ❤😂
Every time you learn something new on this channel, fascinating stuff!
Another great video!
You should do some famous pinot noir blind tastings on pinot noir growing countries such as France, Germany, US, Australia, New Zealand, etc
It would be fun to compare all regions!
Same for riesling!
I love your videos!
The German humor,
The descriptions (I could pick the bigger house too)
The educational value of this channel!
... As an Eastern European I hope there will be more than just LVMH, Taittinger, Bollinger (probably my favorite "big" house), and so on - on our shelves, as grower Champagne is almost impossible to find here.
wow, your channels starting to explode !! great work as always Konstantin !
Nice and interesting...thanks, Konstantin. I like both; last years favs were Michel Gonet, Bollinger and Henriot. Nice pace to the video, moving right along with a dry sense of humour.
Great video, but adding value/cost would be useful too. I used to drink the grower champagnes, but now my wife works for LVMH and we have a good supply of all their champagnes. We toured their champagne vineyards in 2022 and visited Krug, Veuve Cliquot, Ruinart, Dom Perignon, Moet & Chandon and what struck me was the passion within the whole industry. Even your big Grandes Marques NV champagnes they still have pride in what they produce and to be fair they are still wines with some complexity. My whole appreciation for champagne went up a big notch.
Wonderful video, very informative and educational. Thank you, I love your content.
Absolutly mind-blowing that you are able to pick out the rose Champagne! LOL!
Loved this - Marguet and Egly are producing some of the top champagnes available now, IMO. -- would love to see this on the very high end too - eg. Selosse vs Krug, Ulyssee Colin vs Salon, etc..
Selosse Initial vs Krug 171 isn’t even a battle
Landslide victory for Selosse
I love growers champagne, the exciting stuff that is fun and has personality. Great video Konstantin 🍾🥂
should have tricked a gran reserva cava or a english sparlking in the mix without you knowing!
Great idea - will do next time!
Great idea but now he will expect this to happen next time. 😃
Or, a Finger Lakes sparkler!
Swap out the cava for a corpinnat!
@@otsoreijonen2433 Would be super easy to distinguish from a champagne. He would also spot Cava easily in my opinion.
Many thanks for undertaking this arduous job!😅
Cool tasting. In a job years ago we poured out a palette of delicious '85 Pol Roget Brut Rose for a big party in Silicon Valley. Poured Moncuit blanc de blanc many times. Laurent Perrier NV Rose was the default champagne. The beauty of champagne is that it goes with so many foods so everybody's happy drinking it until dessert. Poured an '03 Bert Simon Auslese for a foie gras course that made a guest sound like Donna Summer in Love to Love You.
I love these tastings. Great work. I wish I had a little more experience with Champagne. One of my weak spots, and I'll need to rectify that.
It's a hard job but someone has to do it ...
Yes. He acknowledged in the video that his life really sucks.😂
Great video as always, can you do one on what to look for to know if a supermarket red wine will be good.
Great video, thank you!
Thanks Leon!
Great tasting!
Great video again! I love Bereche but Ulysse Collin and Jerome Prevost are my preferred RM!
This video got randomly recommend for me. First I thought you were Sean from Hot One 😄
What a great idea for a video. I'm glad I know what RM means now.
it is a pleasure to hear about vigneron in champagne from an expert. Sadly the world of sommeliers and wine influencer is fucked, a general flattening due to partnerships pushing shit wines to ignorant people. Searching for these small producers is tiring and expensive, but it goes beyond conventional, these wines give emotions. Wine is culture.
Greetings from Italy
Very interesting. I don't drink sparkling wine (of any type) very often but the story behind this was fun to listen to. I was given a bottle of Dom Pérignon, maybe 12 years ago and it has lived in my fridge on its side since then. Maybe I'll open it this New Years 😃 🍾
Brilliant, its great to learn something new every week, Im addicted to this channel. Pity its hard to get any interesting wine in the Irish Republic.
Drivel
@@monkeytennis8861 huh
My wife has offered to take me to our favorite wine and food bar for lunch followed by a tasting of Grower and Grand Marques! In the words of the two greatest wine influencers for me this year..."I hate my life!" and "I like the pop!" Really learned a lot about the RM vs NM designations. Cheers!
O, I found it. I planning a trip to Champagne next year and there are so many smaller producers, it is very difficult to pick some to visit.
Great stuff. Eglantine voice is terrific. Agrapart and Savart are up there too
This video is popping, sparkling, foaming! OK, I'll stop. But you, Konstantin, cannot!
😁
Wow - I love Champagne Marguet. You need to try Marguet Sapience 👌
One of my favourite champagnes is actually the Jacquart Mosaique Millesime Brut Champagne 2008. Wonderful acidity with longer time on lees. And it does have the beautiful warm bread, toasty, yeasty, soy sauce and lemon zest notes that I love. For me I love the autolytic notes contrasting with the linear acidity of champagne. And the price is amazing for what you get too. Worth a try
I love ALL Champagne 🥂
My favorite is jean hu champagne in vincelles. I recommend pavane and perles d'argent. Tremendous value for the price.
By far, Champagne is my favorite region and the one type of wine I am most knowledgable about. I am very familiar with all the wines you tasted and they are all great! My preference is for grower champagnes with age (like wine #2) but grand marques have their place and I will never say no to Krug! :)
A blind tasting of top deutscher Winzersekt would be great.
Marguet is so so good, their coteaux as well 😍
Egly Ouriet 90 and Pieper 89, mon dieu! I havent had the les vignes de vrigny, though. But the regular Brut Grand Cru is currently one of my favorite champagnes 🥂
I think something that people don’t consider about aging on lees is that yeast contain amino acids and reducing sugars, so as the cells sit there and age over the course of many months, even in an acidic environment, Meillard Reactions will occur, same thing that gives cooked meat and soy sauce their flavours (or more familiarly to champagne lovers: brioche and biscuits get their flavours from Meillard products), which should be considered and studied way closer I reckon
Hey there 😊 I love your videos, I’ve just been recently introduced and I don’t regret it.
I have a large number of vintage wines from early 1900 to date, a lot are from my country South Africa and the others from around the world. I’m not too sure where to sell these in my country so I wanted to know if you would be able to assist me?
Definitely both gosset ,rare , renoir so much good stuff
Thx again for an interesting tasting. I switched 2 years ago to only grower champagne, and find often you get more bang for your buck in terms of interesting very good champagne. I also like Pierre Moncuit, especially the one you tried, very much. Do you think champagne is generally overpriced or do you get good value for the price? I heard both opinions and would like to hear your take on it.
Great tasting! Some of my favorite days in the wine industry were the full line ups from suppliers and being able to taste 5-7 NM champagnes. And then they would would throw in a blind competitors wine. That's how I discovered Roland Bauchet. And then Henriot. Then Gosset. And Delamotte blinded against Salon. You're right, your life is rough!
The dry German humor was hilarious.
German humor isn't dry. It's Extra Brut.
Here in Ukraine price on wines now is very high. Few months ago our government increased taxes for the wine on 60%. So today i drinking only my own wine. This year was great. But i also hope keep my wines on future. So today i drinking wine from low cost pineapple with some add of grape. And main wines from this year i will keepnon future.😮
Nice Tasting, often it seems really difficult to get some more grower Champagne and I am also not that familiar with all the Grand Cru sites in the Champagne.
Still love Chamagne and I was wondering how the color can be so so dark, kinda browny reflexes and more on the Rosé side when the Champagne is actually consists of 80 % of Chardonnay? 🤔
Still awesome selection Leon "bester Mann" 😄
My years of training, beautiful! Lots here, really entertaining and lipsmacking! I go for Mumm for crisp crystal clear freshness and Veuve for big buttercream but happy to try any - not fond of the heavier dark brioche mushroom style favoured by Chopin - very fond of Sainsbury Blanc de Noir, similar to Mumm but crisper and more rounded, fruity, has bounce - not fond of Taittinger or Bollinger. Haven't tried an awful lot of others including Pol Roger 🙄 .. as yet
Desperately wanted to see you pop the bottles alas, also imo you ought to serve champers with a white cloth from your ice bucket for grand effect!! Lucky you having all those bubbles to use up (leftovers) hope you have some salmon & watercress handy ☺
Minor suggestion: perhaps type out unusual terms like Récoltant Manipulant (RM) & Negociant Manipulant (NM) in such videos, cheers!
You just did! (Thank you!) 😊
Both NM and RM can be really exciting. I can even prefer specific cuvees within one House.
Would you do a tasting of BC CAN wines? From the Oliver and such in the Okanagan?
I always thought soy sauce notes would be indicative of a fault in the wine, heat damage? Can it be something actually intentional? What wine styles go for that?
Great video again, always gets me thinking about the next wines I want to explore.
Tastes change over the course of time. What used to be perceived as a bad note is now partly intentional. That was like that and it will remain like that.
Unless there are serious defects, you do not want to experience in the glass.
If I had a champagne budget I would certainly drink RM, not grand marque. I generally stick to Cremant, Cava Reserva, MCC, or high quality sparkling wine that is non-champagne. But I think when you drink grand marque champagne, unless you drink the extra special cuvee you are paying for a brand, not for taste. I remember clearly back in 2015 going to RM Champagne tasting, where the wines were from Cormicy. You could taste the difference in the different wines, particularly in the Vieilles Vignes and the Grand Marquee. Great video and thanks for introducing RM Champagne. Zum Wohl!
You and WineKing have taught me a lot about wine. Thanks. I love these comparison/ educational videos. Also, do you have giant hands?
Very good video! This is, however, not a fair comparison or competition. The grower champagnes in the video are premier cru or grand cru levels, while the one from grandes marques is at ordinary level only. A fair comparison should be against its vintage champagne.
Great idea for a video. While I still buy some grandes maisons champagnes from time to time I have found that the value for money definitely skews towards grower champagne. I found that Pierre Moncuit 2006 amazing and bought another bottle to try it again, for that price I just can't find that level of quality with any of the big brands. Grandes maisons are more interesting for their vintage offerings, but then again the QPR is often not there. My 2cts as a layman.
nice vid ! ^_^
I'd like you make a comparison between Cremant vs Champagne and also Cava, Prosecco as well. I personallly think some of them are both worth the price and tasting.
Could you recommend a very briochey, opulent, sparkling wine / Champagne?
Generally prefer growers as they tend to offer more character and diversity
At this weekend’s tasting e.g. the vve clicquot extra old and 2015 alongside Moët 2015 and Krug 171 were completely blown away by any Jacques Selosse (different price point as well…but still)
The Marguet Shaman is an excellent wine at its price point btw
I don't drink a ton of champagne because it is crazy expensive here in Canada. Even very common bottles like basic Veuve Grand Damme are $100. But the best champagne I have ever had was a grower -- Marie-Courtin
Enjoyed the tasting. Thank you. One thing I noticed was that you stated that a wine described as 'premier cru' was from a 1er cru vineyard. I understood that, like Alsace and unlike Burgundy, 1er and grand cru status in champagne is allocated to villages, rather than vineyards. Did I get that wrong, or am I just interpreting you too literally? Thanks!
I came to comment the same thing! My one time I get to correct a Master of Wine lol.
I think with big maison the real deal is the vintage bottle especially if not priced too high. The basic cuvee as you said is for mass consumption.
Could you do a review for T'SPOT wine?
Recently got the Shaman 19 from Marguet after being able to try some in a wine tasting event with importers for growers champagnes. Will be nice to open it with good company
Amazing one. Already incredible hard to find, never mind Shaman 17.
@@thesisthesis2763 I hope it'll be as good as good as I remember! I was lucky that it was the go to champagne of the sommelier who ran the wine shop in France.
How about Turo den mota vs Raumland vs Gusbourne vs champagne?
Marguet is stunning and not only in rosé.
Please keep it secret a while longer...
Nice! I guess that there’s more value to be had with a 60$ grower champagne than a bigger house. I guess that once you get into the several hundred dollar range then the big houses will have an edge jus by the sheer volume of grapes the can screen and decide to put aside for their best?
Konstantin, I will be attending a champagne tasting in the near future. The tete de cuvees tasting will include Taittinger's Comtes de Champagne 2012, Laurent Perrier's Grand Siecle It 26, La Grand Dame 2015, Pol Roger's Sir Winston Churchill 2015 and Billecart Salmon's Louis Salmon 2008. I will post my impressions here if that's OK. The tasting will also include 20+ other sparklers, so I will have my hands full, but someone has to do this.
So what exactly do you mean with extraction? I would under the assumption that it had to do with how hard the grapes were pressed and with/without stalks etc., but surely this cannot apply to champagne because of the rules of the pressing of the grapes. Please enlighten me 😄
I guess this doesn't make a huge difference as the video is still very interesting and educative. Anyway, could you not see the top of the Champagne wire cages at the start of the video? 😅
So hard since everyone produces multiple champagnes so price becomes a factor as well as personal preferences. Did I understand correctly that Ambonnay champagne was dominantly Chardonnay? Seemed strange
PLEASE follow this up w a comparison of GM prestige cuvées such as DP/Cristal vs comparable tête de cuvée wines from growers such as PP Les Chétillons or Vilmart Cœur de Cuvée or Special Club offerings from the likes of Marc Hébrart, etc! Throw in some Selosse and Krug! Personally, I favor growers and smaller houses over the big guys. Thank you!
Marguet is in a different price segment than Egly or Piper
In Denmark the shops sell the small grower champagnes at too high a price point making the price quality advantage tipped to favor les grandes marques (more love to Ruinart bdb and Roederer 24x). I wish it wasn't so but I've been disappointed more than a few times when buying grower champagne in Denmark simply because of the price markup. And often - I wish I'd opted for a good Raventós instead.
I have never tasted champagne so I can’t tell you, but after that video which was interesting, I am afraid tasting champagne because of the risk to start hating my life as you do already 😂
Very sensible, one should never approach the slippery downwards slope in any area 😵💫🍾
One of the reason that I am worried about grower champagne is I am afraid after spending €80 it turns out to be a funky natural producer! Hence I stick to the grande marque houses..
To be a pro consumer, you have to understand yourself as well as the critic. Mostly they guide us on things that are generally true, and sometimes they just want _something_ to happen, which I feel was a premise for this session. I predicted that the GM would lose.
Thankfully Baum is up-front about it, so you can guesstimate an adjustment of the ratings accordingly. For example, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like that Rosé as much as he did, because typical Champagne still excites me.
Lets not forget about RC
Marguet is really it
oh, a 2006!
Konstantin at the start of the video: "I don't think that grower Champagne is generally better than the big houses..."
Konstantin at the end of the video: "taste more grower Champagne."
Taste more grower Champagne but don't think they are generally better than the big houses: Drink more Champagne!
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine now that's a conclusion that's easy to agree with.
Not a fair representative for the Grands Marques I'd say! The Piper-Heidsieck is significantly cheaper than the other bottles of the line-up
This taste-off deserves a round 2! :)
The P-H was the cheapest of them - I wouldnt mind a 2nd round.
That part about hating your life mad me so sad. I hope it's either a joke, which it might be, or that you find time for some fun hobbies outside of work!
I hate my life! 😂
Idk, this rose champagne kind of looked a lot like IPA craft beer that identifies as champagne.. can never be too sure theese days🤷♂️😂
GM entry-level champagne is waste of money - or let's say, the worst choice in price/quality ratio.
try some wines/champagnes of andre heucq.. insane stuff!