Thank you for the calm and detailed explanation. You answer a lot of questions for me as a hobbyist that only has 1 time to spend those amounts of money.
I am happy hear that my intent to provide content to take the guess work out of purchasing these expensive AV Receivers and Processors is on track for you. If there are additional points you think I should cover let me know. -Jon
Thanks for doing these videos Jon. They have been very informative. I am looking forward to the amplifier video. My story. I owned two Cinema 50s and eventually went with the X4800H. The first Cinema 50 just smelled like it took a bath in the "New Electronic Smell" lake. I thought it sounded ok. The second one smelled better. However, I just could not get it sounding right. For example, playing Bach's Fantasia and fugue in G minor BWV 542 was unclear, the notes had no separation, and hallow. I was hearing this in two channel listening and in movies. I just couldn't put my finger on it until I played this one piece. I did not want to pay more money so opted to go with the X4800H. What a difference that made. The sound was clearer, bolder, and worked the first time. I calibrated once, seasoned the calibrated settings to dial the system into my room, and never looked back. I may not have that "Marantz" sound but, for the same money, I think I made the better choice between the two.
Thanks for sharing your path to the X4800H. Your observations are aligned with my own. Both Denon and Marantz have different tiers of products. The Marantz Cinema 50 and the Denon AVR-X3800H are in the lower tier where the Marantz only sound slight better. When you move to the next tier with Denon AVR-X4800H and Marantz Cinema 40 the difference in noticeable between tiers - with out without room calibration applied. The lower tier just sound dull to me and narrow. Those caring about sound quality I recommend moving up a tier if they can afford. With the Denon AVR-X4800H at the same price as the Marantz Cinema 50 - the choice to me is easy - go with the Denon X4800H -Jon
Such difference can be due to your room characteristics and speakers. However, that does not explain why the 3800H performed noticeably worse the. The Cinema 50. Odd. - Jon
@@ripewave my rooms are treated and I've Ab'd all of my units. The anthem just put them all to shame with movies. But if I'm just using marantz and onkyo the marantz images better than the Rz50 with music. More clear.
You definitely want to play around with the crossovers. How that works with D&M and Audyssey, is that Audyssey performs the measurement, then the D&M processor decides where to put the crossover based on that measurement. Its just going to use the closest crossover frequency above the detected -3db point, which means room gain is going to have a significant effect on this, rather than the natural capability of the speakers themselves.
So I conclusion may be on track , that the D&M crosssover values are likely not optimal. Sounds like another justification to roll out REW and the Spatial Audio Calibration disk. -Jon
Perhaps Dirac says your subwoofers are farther away because it is accounting for a delay that occurs during signal processing within the sub. In other words the total time is more than would be accounted for by just figuring the distance from the sub to your ear.
That should apply to both actually. The delay should be accounting for processing not physical distance. Maybe one is more accurate than the other which we could tell by listening to demos and look for anomalies in bass response.
That is what worries me. I could understand if all room calibration methods needed to push the subwoofers out (further distances on subwoofer, more time delay on the other speakers) but with my observations, the Audyssey calibration is not doing that. As such, I am assuming that one method is not doing something right. I feel that volume levels balance and time delay should be consistent regardless of the room calibration tool. I am going to manually balance and adjust timings using the Spatial Audio Calibration disk and the REW and compare against DIRAC and Audyssey result. It will be interesting which auto-calibration method comes closest to manual calibration. Jon
@@ripewave Why didn't you LISTEN to the difference? It IS actually possible to hear (with a trained ear) wether such time-delays are correct or off/wrong.
Hey! Great video! Dirac Live will always set the subwoofer to 0.00 ms. Dirac measures distances in a different way than Audyssey, so you can’t really compare these two if you ask me.
I tried and the result seem reasonable. The subwoofer delay reported was not 0ms as reported through the Marantz; but rather 1.0ms for the rear sub and 0.8ms for the front sub. The speaker that did get 0ms delay was my front center channel (which is physically the furthest). By multiplying by 1125ft/s (speed of sound) you get a relative distance. Then I aligned with the Audyssey by adding the distance Audyssey set the front center speaker to each channel. After reboot, the Cinema 50 is now reporting in feet with distances similar to my calculations. Jon
In the upper right quadrant, you've put the C40 and the X4800H. But there is also the AVM70 from Anthem. Except, as you pointed out, that is a processor. Not an AV receiver. Wouldn't it be more fair to compare D+M to the MRX740 or 1140? Where would you rank those? Similar to the AVM70, or below that?
Correct both the Anthem AVM70 and the Emotiva RMC-1 on the chart of AV Processors. I include both types as we have an audience that is often weighing whether to purchase an AVR or an AV Processor. They want to know if they spend more for a processor, will they notice a difference. I am trying to represent relative sound quality difference regardless of product category or price - sometimes there are outliers, like the Onkyo TX-RZ50, which perform better then their category. Therefore, I let the TX-RZ50 compare against models costing 2x as much and AVRs compete against AVPs. I have not included the MRX740 or 1140 because I have not heard them in my theater. Jon
this was great thanks. For another experiment I would suggest you adjust manually all of the parameters with no audy/dirac and make adjustments as you see fit not based on anything other than your sound preferences. I think we get to tied to "pro" advice. Then re rate based on that.
That is a great suggestion. So far with side-by-side comparisons, I am not finding an AVR or AV Processor changes positions (what sounds better) as long as I apply the volume, calibration and mode settings consistently. All with room correction, none with room correction, etc. I think I will run through our test with my Emotiva RMC-1 and Marantz Cinema 50 as comparisons against themselves - manual vs. DIRAC calibration. -Jon
On previous systems I found the best setting for distance is "zero". Anything else adds artificial echo to the channel output (try it for yourself). You want the cleanest signal output from the speaker, not some DSP-magic fuzziness. A signal will not get cleaner because you added echo (or anything else) to it. Room acoustics are key, and reality is we all have sub-optimal rooms in most cases. Only if you have space to build a dedicated listening room can you totally control the environment. As for me, I'm using it in a large living room with windows at both ends of different sizes (one end is a door). I'll just tweak levels, EQ, and cross-over until it sounds right. Anything else is pixie dust and psychology.
Glad that chart was helpful. It was the first time I have represented sound quality graphically and was looking for a convention that would be easy to follow. Always looking for better ways to represent my findings and communicate. -Jon
Great comparison ! As you mentioned the Onkyo RZ-50 is great value for money. Could you compare as far Denon/Marantz have advantages listening Auro 3D compared to the RZ-50 which does not have this feature ? Tks.
To me the Auro 3D feature of Cinema 40 is nearly worth the whole price difference from RZ-50. Yep, Auro3D is that good at upmixing, especially music. 🙂
@@Exalix heck, I'm doing upgrades based around the concept of using Auro3D as my primary upmixer for non-Atmos/DTS:X content. As soon as I heard Auro upmixing, I committed to my next upgrade including it.
On Auro-3D - some may not agree hear, but there is some content where I prefer Dolby Surround upmixer. So for those I listen through my RMC-1 and not the Cinema-50. Makes the purchase decision harder.-Jon
I have moved from an RZ50 to Cinema 50. The Onkyo has a wider sound stage but the cinema 50 is clearer and more balanced and the center imaging is far superior. When I forgot to change from stereo into surround I often don't even realize my center isn't on. However the big big difference is being able to run multiple subs that are all room corrected. The RZ50 sounded rubbish once I added an extra sub and now with 2 subs it's just so much better. However for cinema 50 owners I advise running in flat mode and then modifying the tone controls to give a harmon curve. For some reason the reference or trying to do it in the app just didn't work. Dirac is a non starter due to not being able to do multiple subs and I found it overrated. Plus limited is all you need. I draw my curtains at 500hz no matter what.
Thanks for that first hand account. I take your report as justification for trying to calibration manually. While I have found DIRAC to produce better results then Audyssey, I feel more can be achieved in both cases. I will try manual next. -Jon
@@ripewave Definitely. In the end it was the reason I moved to the cinema 50. I just didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of buying a mini DSP and then having to figure it all out but I'm sure you could make either sing. Btw my cinema 50 is still within the 30 days window and I think I will swap it with a 40 after watching this video. I love the balance and the integration of the subs but there is something lacking with the sound. As I said while it center images brilliantly it's a bit too narrow.
@@ripewave btw I traded in my 50 for a 40. Yea the sound is much better. Pretty much how you described it. Not sure 1 grand better but I'm now satisfied whereas before I wasn't so glad I pulled the trigger.
@@John-ok8tsI have the exact same problem with my c50 and will probably return it. It just sounds too thin/narrow. Would you say the C40 has a fuller and deeper sound?
@@Goanaut218 Honestly at the time I was debating between the Sony 7000 and the C40. Had I to do it again I would have gone for the Sony and dealt with any issues with the subs. The c40 is better than the c50 but for over 3 times what what the RZ50 costs it's not worth it. I have used the c50, RZ50 and c40 and I would place them exactly where ripwave places them so I have to imagine the rest would be the same.
It’s a very interesting comparison, and again back to the point that you get better sound as price increases, however in some cases the price difference is clearly not justifiable other than cosmetics, mainly with the 4800 vs C40. Back in the days I used the Denon 991 in my main HT and still to this day can tell that it has that extra sparkle and spacious sound when compared to the 3400. The 3400 has been a flawless receiver to me and I’ve been waiting to upgrade to a newer generation with more channels and no bugs, and your comparison is very helpful. Although the Onkyo is a great value it lacks separated subs and Auro. For that matter Denon used to have a better surround for music however in some of the updates it was suddenly gone. It was immediately noticeable, and not sure why they did it. I miss that surround for music and dislike the 7 channels stereo, thus the importance of Auro 3D. Based on some reviews it seems that the new Sonys are the king of spacial sound. This could be the challenger for this generation of receivers, mainly if the sound quality of the 5000 ends up being on par or slightly better than the 4800/C40 at a lower price point. Kudos to your comparison, I’m greatly enjoying it and glad that you’re doing all this work for our community. Thank you 🙏🏻
Great details based on your direct experience. Very helpful. It really seems odd when a brand moves a model backwards in quality when introducing new line ups. All channel playback only has limited use cases especially with immersive upmixers like Auro-3D -Jon
@@ripewave the 991 is the previous 4800, and understandable that it’s superior in sound quality over the 3400. You are right about the quality drop, as the 991 still came with toroidal transformer and good old Burr Brown DAC. Also the 3400 has a better AKM DAC, AL32, and D.D.S.C., and Clock Jitter Reducer, none included in the 3800. The new receivers are more feature rich however at the cost of dropping quality components in the sound section, and lately with a significant price increase, well beyond inflation.
Thanks Jon. These receivers comparison videos have been super helpful for me or any new buyers . It’s very informative. I was able to narrow down my selection. I have decided to go with the Onkyo RZ50 as it’s value for money . Thank you for your time to do this comparison videos . I know it’s takes lot of time to do this . 🙏
Rajan, So glad these videos are helpful to you. I was very surprised by the good performance of the Onkyo given its value pricing. I holds strong against those costly 2x the price. I hope it serves you well. Thanks especially for the donation. That really helps. Jon
Hello. Do you think the price difference between 3800h and 4800h is proportional to the gain obtained in sound for use as a *home theater* ? *I don't use receiver to listen to music.* I ask this because the measurements made by Amir (audiosciencereview) are very similar between them. Just a bigger difference in SINAD in *some scenarios* thanks
As an engineer, I like measurements. I don’t have the measurement tools that Amir has. I will say the sound quality improvement with the 4800h is noticeable over the 3800h. -Jon
Thank you John for your great & thorough inputs! Now I'm in a dilemma torn between Cinema 40 & SR8015 as they are both to be had on almost the same price range here in Belgium Netherlands around 1700-1900eur! I've seen you have also reviewed the Marantz SR8015 before so how would you rank those 2 side by side? Many thanks in advance 🙏
My review of the Marantz SR8015 (introduced 2020) was a research only review in comparison with the other Marantz models. As it was not part of an inhouse review, I cannot speak to its sound quality. I suggest focusing on the features which are most important to you. The SR8015 provides a few capabilities not found in the Cinema 40 and the Cinema 40 does things the SR8015 can't SR8015 (2020 model)- - Front Wide speaker support (DTS:X Pro) - More power (11x140W vs 9x125W) Cinema 40 (2023 model)- - 4 independent subwoofers (vs. 2) - Dirac Live support (paid options only) - HDMI 2.1 8K on all inputs (vs. 1) - new physical design See Marantz 2021 8K AV Receivers Processors vs Denon th-cam.com/video/kOSV4YfbBmE/w-d-xo.html See New Marantz Cinema Range 2022-23 - AV10, Cinema 40, 50, 60, 70s compared th-cam.com/video/3dBhjPVFGoQ/w-d-xo.html Jon
@@ripewave wow thank you so much for your prompt reply! Such a great comparison! But my question is whether their hardware differences such as the toroidal transformer, power supply capacitors and heatsinks arrangement with 11/13 channels of amplification in monolithic construction or not etc will affect the sound quality?
I wish I had. That was something that I didn’t measure. I can say that I didn’t notice anything beyond a normally warmth. Nothing excessive. However, I do feel that I would need to first configure for all 9 amplifiers in use to stress test and measure heat under the loads some of you will experience. -Jon
@@ripewave Thank you for reply. Denon 3800h runs really hot (all internal amps active, ECO off), wondering how things with 4800h. Cinema 40 would be interesting to know as well
Thanks for that detail. I don’t have enough experience with Audyssey to know how inconsistent it is. That may explain why I had trouble getting good results. -Jon
Nice work. I am interested possibly of upgrading my AVR but am considering Arcam again mainly because I love their sound and simplicity. That being said, do you have on target to review any Arcam AVR's?
Yes - Arcam is on my list. So many positive impersonations sent to me that I have to hear for myself. I just need to be about to purchase and return - I will likely go back to Crutchfield are equivalent with a 60-day policy. For the last batch I have used Amazon as it is so easy to return after reviewing. -Jon
Thanks Jon this series is so helpful. I love the chart but would also like to know your impressions of clarity or any differences you detect in object placement. I know Andrew Robinson has been saying that he felt like the Sony something or other does a noticeably better job placing sounds in a 3D space than many. I wonder if these differ at all in that regard. I’m really trying to decide right now between separates or a receiver. In either case I will be amping the front three channels separately. I would also love to see the where the Integra DRX-8.4 falls on that chart because I really like its back panel options. I have no idea how the Integra DRX-8.4 sounds and it appears there is no way to demo one in person. Thanks again.
I believe I will attempt to bring in both the Onkyo TX-RZ70 and Integra DRX8.4 at the same time for my November reviews (following Sony in October). I am anxious to hear the Sony 360 audio for myself. -Jon
Marantz cinema 50 vs Denon 4800. Which is best to buy. I will not use internal amplifier of Avr . I will use external amplifier for all channel. Thankyou
The Denon AVR-X4800H, while supporting a very similar feature set, including the speaker layout size, will sound noticeably better. After that it is a cosmetic choice. -Jon
Good stuff...I'm a Denon guy because I feel it goes better sonically with Klipsch speakers...and it has Heos...I guess Marantz does to...but I don't like the port hole...even though it would go with my Panamax 5400...another thing...I own the Denon 4400h and need to use a fan because it gets up to 110 degrees without one...do the other models get this hot?
I agree that visually having a look that fits with the aesthetic you desire is important. All these receiver models can still get hot - fans help. -Jon
I just upgraded to a Denon avr-x4700h from a Yamaha Aventage RXA770. The Yamaha used to run cool as a cucumber in comparison despite providing the same volume on the same speakers (slightly warm to the touch) and the Denon runs HOT! Why is this?
I have the Cinema 50, do you thin adding external amplification for the front stage or front 3 will give a richer spacious sound? I have a Parasound 2125 v2 amp on the left right and I really think it makes a difference, its got a richer sound. I have an outlaw 2200 single channel amp on the center Im not sure that makes a big difference its probably the speaker. I use polk reserve R500 towers and the center is the R300. I think I'm going to get DIRAC and try it out.
I will have better response once I complete the internal amplifier analysis I will be running this week. Chances are you will want to utilize the external Parasound 2125 v2 amp. Even if the results are similar, offloading some channels will permit those still running in the Cinema 50 to run cooler, better. The center channel is very importance. If you can also run with a similar external amp, I would also recommend. Dirac will be a noticeable upgrade for any Denon or Marantz which supports it. Remember, you will need to purchase an omnidirectional microphone as well for Dirac to work. -Jon
Great job as usual Jon! I would like to see what you think of the lowest performing model, but with manual calibration using the Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit and Magic Beans. I think it will come out on top of all of them. It's surprising how inconsistent the auto-calibration is with something as seemingly simple as level matching at delays. They're not off by a lot, but enough to affect imaging and sound stage. I've been doing testing lately as well, and a vocal can sound slightly off-center and to the left on one calibration, and dead center on another. I think what you'll find is the tonality once we do Magic Beans is going to take the entire system to another level.
For this part 2 video all units were fully powered externally using the same external amplifiers, speakers and room. Therefore the Emotiva RMC-1 was powered by the same setup as well. This enabled me to compare the pre-amplifier sections without other differences influencing the results. The video I am concluding with today is to cover the internal amplifiers. -Jon
Yes. I test using the pre-outs only for all channels (i.e. all external amps) and could tell the difference clearly. Denon and Marantz use better components and power supplies as you move up. -Jon
Yes! I have had the Cinema 50 since fall for 2-3 months, and had the chance to upgrade from Cinema 50 to 40. The difference is quite big! And with Dirac Live Cinema 40 accelerates even further away from Cinema 50. :)
@@playcold32 More dynamic, cleaner, better separation, warmer and more detailed. Much more true to the Marantz sound signature. The looks of the receiver looks like it means business, like the AV10. The LED lightning is also very nice, but that is a matter of taste - like everything else. One cool feature I like a lot, that is rarely mentioned is the 2ch Channel setting the Cinema 50 does not have.
Great discussion-thanks for that firsthand account of the 40 over 50 difference. I need to check out the C40’s two channel mode that was mentioned. Not the same as pure direct mode?
31:56: Did I get this right - you did the listening tests with external amplifiers?!? (if so, which amp did you use? So you used only the PreOut of these AV receivers and did not evaluate their built-in internal amps at all??? why??? (very confused🤔🥴) Edit: Oh I see that internal amp test is in part 3. Nevertheless I would like to know which external amp you were using here.
I used the following external amplifiers: Front LCR - 3 x Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 (1-ch) Side and rear surrounds - 2x Emotiva XPA-DR3 (2-ch) Height - 1 x Sony TA-N9000ES (5-ch) Jon
This may sound like a weird question. I currently have a pioneer VSX 304 ran to a monolith 13 subwoofer when listening to movies I have plenty of bass output however, when I listen to music, it’s like my bases neutered, and there are times when I turn it up, there is a point where my base physically does not keep up with my main speakers, I’ve contacted Pioneer about this they couldn’t give me any help as to why this may be so my question is with any of these models you talked about in this video did you notice that difference when switching from movies to music was the base neutered or was it still really close to the same level wise with movies and music?
After listening to all but the Anthem and Emotiva, the Denon’s had the sound signature I was looking for. The Arcam was beautiful in two channel but way to quirky for my taste operation wise. I’ve had the rz50 and 4700 in house and was concerned about the HDMI issues on both. Would love to know if all issues have been ironed out in the 4800 running earc.
I yet to hear the Arcam but have seen reports that also say the two channel reproduction from it is very good. I would like to know for myself and compare against the surround modes. The reviews have raved about sound quality from Arcam but did not reveal what sound modes led to that impression-Jon
@@ripewave I believe it was direct or pure direct. It was quite moving on a few songs but I was unable to get much bass out of my two subs with movies or music in any mode.
Sir I am using now x3800h and I am upgrade to next AVR but I am confused which one can I buy n what brand can I choosen like cinema 40 , AV10 or Denon A1H , X6800 and my last question is Dirac live can I using a licence in multiple AVR or only registered with a signal AVR PLEASE REPLY SIR…
Thanks for the great reviews. Do all of these receivers have 4 independent subwoofer outputs? This is important to me since I have 4 subs. My current Marantz 7702 MkII processor has 2 independent sub outs so I decided to buy a used Audyssey installer kit and have been calibrating all 4 using that method.
It seems that the past five years have been implementing the technologies introduced over five years ago and working out the bugs. So not a lot of innovation but rather refining what we already had - or in some cases, cost reducing measures and price increases. -Jon
Strange that you seem unwilling to say that there is basically no discernible difference in sound. Whether distances and levels are set up by Dirac or not, if you were to manually enter those values into the system you'd get exactly the same result. Basically, Dirac, and even Audyssey, aren't really worth it. If you sit and listen to the audio, and play with the distances manually, I have found that all it does is add an echo effect. This is not a multi-channel echo, but it is an actual echo added to the output of the channel (I proved this by disconnecting all channels except one and playing audio while sitting 2 inches away from the speaker). The only distance setting that sounds clean is zero (no processing). The rest of it comes down to room acoustics, and nothing else. AFAIK the brain can't even discern 1 ms difference, and good luck having hearing good enough to tell. In the end, it seems much of this is psychological. The only true test is a blind experiment, but few "audiophiles" would even accept such tests as they want to believe that snake oil works.
I always aim for a great speaker for music and the home theater and gaming can use the same. Subwoofers become even more crucial for movies and games. -Jon
@@ripewave There are so many "content creators" and influencers in this space on youtube. I appreciate your philosophy and detailed coverage! I ended up ordering cinema 40. The Denon 4800 was only 100usd cheaper in Norway. One of the markets where is more competive prices.
So the Cinema 40 and X4800H with Dirac are nearly on par with an Emotiva RMC-1? Thats crazy. I'm upgrading to a Denon X6700 soon. Hopefully its on that level as well with MultEQ-X.
Perhaps I could have done better with my graph. (my first attempt at visually representing). What I meant to communicate is that the Cinema 40 and X4800H with DIRAC are approaching the sound quality of the Emotiva RMC-1, but I feel still no on par. Given the price difference and the need to purchase a full set of external amplifiers with the RMC-1, the Cinema 40 and X4800H may be "good enough" for many. I would be happy with any of the three. Jon
I disagree about the menus. Main idea that Marantz and Denon had was just 1 level of submenu. Also they have set 8 as maximum number per menu. So this is why Audio and Speakers menu exists. Advanced under Audio would bring another level of submenu and would be more complicated.
Yes - the number of menus and depth Denon and Marantz employ are on target as you state. The point I was trying to make was the placement of settings under those menus and how the menus are labeled. I find myself confused about where to go and wonder why I have to leave one menu to access a related function. Perhaps I will grow more comfortable with their placement over time. Right now I am struggling with some of them. -Jon
And John, I know you don't have the RZ50 anymore, but maybe you know anything about this Web Setup Menu - th-cam.com/video/-0lR07ZB1dU/w-d-xo.html - which my RZ50 doesn't have (and I'm wounder if this is a real RZ50 web setup menu or ...). Thanks!
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Thank you for the calm and detailed explanation. You answer a lot of questions for me as a hobbyist that only has 1 time to spend those amounts of money.
I am happy hear that my intent to provide content to take the guess work out of purchasing these expensive AV Receivers and Processors is on track for you. If there are additional points you think I should cover let me know. -Jon
@@ripewave perhaps build quality could be compared in a minute or so. As a first impression for example. Strong connectors..strong hdmi port etc.
I like that approach. -Jon
Thanks for doing these videos Jon. They have been very informative. I am looking forward to the amplifier video.
My story. I owned two Cinema 50s and eventually went with the X4800H. The first Cinema 50 just smelled like it took a bath in the "New Electronic Smell" lake. I thought it sounded ok. The second one smelled better. However, I just could not get it sounding right. For example, playing Bach's Fantasia and fugue in G minor BWV 542 was unclear, the notes had no separation, and hallow. I was hearing this in two channel listening and in movies. I just couldn't put my finger on it until I played this one piece. I did not want to pay more money so opted to go with the X4800H. What a difference that made. The sound was clearer, bolder, and worked the first time. I calibrated once, seasoned the calibrated settings to dial the system into my room, and never looked back. I may not have that "Marantz" sound but, for the same money, I think I made the better choice between the two.
What speaker do you have?
What speakers do you have?@@mateuszkaflowski3827
Thanks for sharing your path to the X4800H. Your observations are aligned with my own. Both Denon and Marantz have different tiers of products. The Marantz Cinema 50 and the Denon AVR-X3800H are in the lower tier where the Marantz only sound slight better. When you move to the next tier with Denon AVR-X4800H and Marantz Cinema 40 the difference in noticeable between tiers - with out without room calibration applied. The lower tier just sound dull to me and narrow. Those caring about sound quality I recommend moving up a tier if they can afford. With the Denon AVR-X4800H at the same price as the Marantz Cinema 50 - the choice to me is easy - go with the Denon X4800H -Jon
My cinema 50 without Dirac sounds better than my RZ50 with Dirac enabled. My 3800 H sounds muddy
Such difference can be due to your room characteristics and speakers. However, that does not explain why the 3800H performed noticeably worse the. The Cinema 50. Odd. - Jon
@@ripewave my rooms are treated and I've Ab'd all of my units. The anthem just put them all to shame with movies. But if I'm just using marantz and onkyo the marantz images better than the Rz50 with music. More clear.
Those expanded details of your testing with several brands really helps. -Jon
Great video and thanks for listening to our feedback!
I am glad you liked the video. Your feedback is so important. I learn a lot from this audience. -Jon
You definitely want to play around with the crossovers.
How that works with D&M and Audyssey, is that Audyssey performs the measurement, then the D&M processor decides where to put the crossover based on that measurement. Its just going to use the closest crossover frequency above the detected -3db point, which means room gain is going to have a significant effect on this, rather than the natural capability of the speakers themselves.
So I conclusion may be on track , that the D&M crosssover values are likely not optimal. Sounds like another justification to roll out REW and the Spatial Audio Calibration disk. -Jon
Perhaps Dirac says your subwoofers are farther away because it is accounting for a delay that occurs during signal processing within the sub. In other words the total time is more than would be accounted for by just figuring the distance from the sub to your ear.
That should apply to both actually. The delay should be accounting for processing not physical distance. Maybe one is more accurate than the other which we could tell by listening to demos and look for anomalies in bass response.
@@shaolin95 What you say makes sense. Let's just hope it's not a case of one being so messed up that it's not accounting for it at all!
That is what worries me. I could understand if all room calibration methods needed to push the subwoofers out (further distances on subwoofer, more time delay on the other speakers) but with my observations, the Audyssey calibration is not doing that. As such, I am assuming that one method is not doing something right.
I feel that volume levels balance and time delay should be consistent regardless of the room calibration tool. I am going to manually balance and adjust timings using the Spatial Audio Calibration disk and the REW and compare against DIRAC and Audyssey result. It will be interesting which auto-calibration method comes closest to manual calibration.
Jon
@@ripewave Why didn't you LISTEN to the difference? It IS actually possible to hear (with a trained ear) wether such time-delays are correct or off/wrong.
Hey! Great video! Dirac Live will always set the subwoofer to 0.00 ms. Dirac measures distances in a different way than Audyssey, so you can’t really compare these two if you ask me.
I tried and the result seem reasonable. The subwoofer delay reported was not 0ms as reported through the Marantz; but rather 1.0ms for the rear sub and 0.8ms for the front sub. The speaker that did get 0ms delay was my front center channel (which is physically the furthest). By multiplying by 1125ft/s (speed of sound) you get a relative distance. Then I aligned with the Audyssey by adding the distance Audyssey set the front center speaker to each channel.
After reboot, the Cinema 50 is now reporting in feet with distances similar to my calculations.
Jon
In the upper right quadrant, you've put the C40 and the X4800H. But there is also the AVM70 from Anthem.
Except, as you pointed out, that is a processor. Not an AV receiver.
Wouldn't it be more fair to compare D+M to the MRX740 or 1140?
Where would you rank those? Similar to the AVM70, or below that?
Correct both the Anthem AVM70 and the Emotiva RMC-1 on the chart of AV Processors. I include both types as we have an audience that is often weighing whether to purchase an AVR or an AV Processor. They want to know if they spend more for a processor, will they notice a difference.
I am trying to represent relative sound quality difference regardless of product category or price - sometimes there are outliers, like the Onkyo TX-RZ50, which perform better then their category. Therefore, I let the TX-RZ50 compare against models costing 2x as much and AVRs compete against AVPs.
I have not included the MRX740 or 1140 because I have not heard them in my theater.
Jon
this was great thanks. For another experiment I would suggest you adjust manually all of the parameters with no audy/dirac and make adjustments as you see fit not based on anything other than your sound preferences. I think we get to tied to "pro" advice. Then re rate based on that.
That is a great suggestion. So far with side-by-side comparisons, I am not finding an AVR or AV Processor changes positions (what sounds better) as long as I apply the volume, calibration and mode settings consistently. All with room correction, none with room correction, etc. I think I will run through our test with my Emotiva RMC-1 and Marantz Cinema 50 as comparisons against themselves - manual vs. DIRAC calibration. -Jon
On previous systems I found the best setting for distance is "zero". Anything else adds artificial echo to the channel output (try it for yourself). You want the cleanest signal output from the speaker, not some DSP-magic fuzziness. A signal will not get cleaner because you added echo (or anything else) to it. Room acoustics are key, and reality is we all have sub-optimal rooms in most cases. Only if you have space to build a dedicated listening room can you totally control the environment. As for me, I'm using it in a large living room with windows at both ends of different sizes (one end is a door). I'll just tweak levels, EQ, and cross-over until it sounds right. Anything else is pixie dust and psychology.
Another Great video mate and the chart is a great way of gauging sound quality and value for money.
Glad that chart was helpful. It was the first time I have represented sound quality graphically and was looking for a convention that would be easy to follow. Always looking for better ways to represent my findings and communicate. -Jon
Great comparison ! As you mentioned the Onkyo RZ-50 is great value for money. Could you compare as far Denon/Marantz have advantages listening Auro 3D compared to the RZ-50 which does not have this feature ? Tks.
To me the Auro 3D feature of Cinema 40 is nearly worth the whole price difference from RZ-50. Yep, Auro3D is that good at upmixing, especially music. 🙂
@@Exalix so true!
@@Exalix heck, I'm doing upgrades based around the concept of using Auro3D as my primary upmixer for non-Atmos/DTS:X content.
As soon as I heard Auro upmixing, I committed to my next upgrade including it.
Yes - Auro-3D is an advantage Marantz and Denon have over the other on my list (Emotiva, Onkyo and Anthem). For many, it tips the scales. -Jon
On Auro-3D - some may not agree hear, but there is some content where I prefer Dolby Surround upmixer. So for those I listen through my RMC-1 and not the Cinema-50. Makes the purchase decision harder.-Jon
I have moved from an RZ50 to Cinema 50. The Onkyo has a wider sound stage but the cinema 50 is clearer and more balanced and the center imaging is far superior. When I forgot to change from stereo into surround I often don't even realize my center isn't on. However the big big difference is being able to run multiple subs that are all room corrected. The RZ50 sounded rubbish once I added an extra sub and now with 2 subs it's just so much better. However for cinema 50 owners I advise running in flat mode and then modifying the tone controls to give a harmon curve. For some reason the reference or trying to do it in the app just didn't work. Dirac is a non starter due to not being able to do multiple subs and I found it overrated. Plus limited is all you need. I draw my curtains at 500hz no matter what.
Thanks for that first hand account. I take your report as justification for trying to calibration manually. While I have found DIRAC to produce better results then Audyssey, I feel more can be achieved in both cases. I will try manual next. -Jon
@@ripewave Definitely. In the end it was the reason I moved to the cinema 50. I just didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of buying a mini DSP and then having to figure it all out but I'm sure you could make either sing. Btw my cinema 50 is still within the 30 days window and I think I will swap it with a 40 after watching this video. I love the balance and the integration of the subs but there is something lacking with the sound. As I said while it center images brilliantly it's a bit too narrow.
@@ripewave btw I traded in my 50 for a 40. Yea the sound is much better. Pretty much how you described it. Not sure 1 grand better but I'm now satisfied whereas before I wasn't so glad I pulled the trigger.
@@John-ok8tsI have the exact same problem with my c50 and will probably return it. It just sounds too thin/narrow. Would you say the C40 has a fuller and deeper sound?
@@Goanaut218 Honestly at the time I was debating between the Sony 7000 and the C40. Had I to do it again I would have gone for the Sony and dealt with any issues with the subs. The c40 is better than the c50 but for over 3 times what what the RZ50 costs it's not worth it. I have used the c50, RZ50 and c40 and I would place them exactly where ripwave places them so I have to imagine the rest would be the same.
It’s a very interesting comparison, and again back to the point that you get better sound as price increases, however in some cases the price difference is clearly not justifiable other than cosmetics, mainly with the 4800 vs C40. Back in the days I used the Denon 991 in my main HT and still to this day can tell that it has that extra sparkle and spacious sound when compared to the 3400. The 3400 has been a flawless receiver to me and I’ve been waiting to upgrade to a newer generation with more channels and no bugs, and your comparison is very helpful. Although the Onkyo is a great value it lacks separated subs and Auro. For that matter Denon used to have a better surround for music however in some of the updates it was suddenly gone. It was immediately noticeable, and not sure why they did it. I miss that surround for music and dislike the 7 channels stereo, thus the importance of Auro 3D.
Based on some reviews it seems that the new Sonys are the king of spacial sound. This could be the challenger for this generation of receivers, mainly if the sound quality of the 5000 ends up being on par or slightly better than the 4800/C40 at a lower price point. Kudos to your comparison, I’m greatly enjoying it and glad that you’re doing all this work for our community. Thank you 🙏🏻
Great details based on your direct experience. Very helpful. It really seems odd when a brand moves a model backwards in quality when introducing new line ups. All channel playback only has limited use cases especially with immersive upmixers like Auro-3D -Jon
@@ripewave the 991 is the previous 4800, and understandable that it’s superior in sound quality over the 3400. You are right about the quality drop, as the 991 still came with toroidal transformer and good old Burr Brown DAC. Also the 3400 has a better AKM DAC, AL32, and D.D.S.C., and Clock Jitter Reducer, none included in the 3800. The new receivers are more feature rich however at the cost of dropping quality components in the sound section, and lately with a significant price increase, well beyond inflation.
Thanks Jon. These receivers comparison videos have been super helpful for me or any new buyers . It’s very informative. I was able to narrow down my selection. I have decided to go with the Onkyo RZ50 as it’s value for money . Thank you for your time to do this comparison videos . I know it’s takes lot of time to do this . 🙏
Rajan,
So glad these videos are helpful to you. I was very surprised by the good performance of the Onkyo given its value pricing. I holds strong against those costly 2x the price. I hope it serves you well. Thanks especially for the donation. That really helps.
Jon
how is your experiance with the rz50. ive had mine for about 9 months now and its a let down. very buggy
Hello.
Do you think the price difference between 3800h and 4800h is proportional to the gain obtained in sound for use as a *home theater* ?
*I don't use receiver to listen to music.*
I ask this because the measurements made by Amir (audiosciencereview) are very similar between them.
Just a bigger difference in SINAD in *some scenarios*
thanks
As an engineer, I like measurements. I don’t have the measurement tools that Amir has. I will say the sound quality improvement with the 4800h is noticeable over the 3800h. -Jon
Thank you John for your great & thorough inputs!
Now I'm in a dilemma torn between Cinema 40 & SR8015 as they are both to be had on almost the same price range here in Belgium Netherlands around 1700-1900eur!
I've seen you have also reviewed the Marantz SR8015 before so how would you rank those 2 side by side?
Many thanks in advance 🙏
My review of the Marantz SR8015 (introduced 2020) was a research only review in comparison with the other Marantz models. As it was not part of an inhouse review, I cannot speak to its sound quality.
I suggest focusing on the features which are most important to you. The SR8015 provides a few capabilities not found in the Cinema 40 and the Cinema 40 does things the SR8015 can't
SR8015 (2020 model)-
- Front Wide speaker support (DTS:X Pro)
- More power (11x140W vs 9x125W)
Cinema 40 (2023 model)-
- 4 independent subwoofers (vs. 2)
- Dirac Live support (paid options only)
- HDMI 2.1 8K on all inputs (vs. 1)
- new physical design
See Marantz 2021 8K AV Receivers Processors vs Denon
th-cam.com/video/kOSV4YfbBmE/w-d-xo.html
See New Marantz Cinema Range 2022-23 - AV10, Cinema 40, 50, 60, 70s compared
th-cam.com/video/3dBhjPVFGoQ/w-d-xo.html
Jon
@@ripewave wow thank you so much for your prompt reply! Such a great comparison!
But my question is whether their hardware differences such as the toroidal transformer, power supply capacitors and heatsinks arrangement with 11/13 channels of amplification in monolithic construction or not etc will affect the sound quality?
Are you going to do a Yamaha Aventage comparisons? Great work!
Yes - likely my July series. -Jon
Thank you John. Don’t you notice a heat from avrs while testing? Which one was the coolest and which runs hot
I wish I had. That was something that I didn’t measure. I can say that I didn’t notice anything beyond a normally warmth. Nothing excessive. However, I do feel that I would need to first configure for all 9 amplifiers in use to stress test and measure heat under the loads some of you will experience. -Jon
@@ripewave Thank you for reply. Denon 3800h runs really hot (all internal amps active, ECO off), wondering how things with 4800h. Cinema 40 would be interesting to know as well
Audyssey is usually all over the place with different calibration each time, best to compare without any room correction...
Thanks for that detail. I don’t have enough experience with Audyssey to know how inconsistent it is. That may explain why I had trouble getting good results. -Jon
Nice work. I am interested possibly of upgrading my AVR but am considering Arcam again mainly because I love their sound and simplicity. That being said, do you have on target to review any Arcam AVR's?
Yes - Arcam is on my list. So many positive impersonations sent to me that I have to hear for myself. I just need to be about to purchase and return - I will likely go back to Crutchfield are equivalent with a 60-day policy. For the last batch I have used Amazon as it is so easy to return after reviewing. -Jon
Thanks Jon this series is so helpful. I love the chart but would also like to know your impressions of clarity or any differences you detect in object placement. I know Andrew Robinson has been saying that he felt like the Sony something or other does a noticeably better job placing sounds in a 3D space than many. I wonder if these differ at all in that regard. I’m really trying to decide right now between separates or a receiver. In either case I will be amping the front three channels separately. I would also love to see the where the Integra DRX-8.4 falls on that chart because I really like its back panel options. I have no idea how the Integra DRX-8.4 sounds and it appears there is no way to demo one in person. Thanks again.
I believe I will attempt to bring in both the Onkyo TX-RZ70 and Integra DRX8.4 at the same time for my November reviews (following Sony in October). I am anxious to hear the Sony 360 audio for myself. -Jon
It would be interesting to test the new Integra 8.4 against the Marantz or Denon
It would and would like to and will try to make happen. Good suggestion. -Jon
@@ripewave In Sweden the Integra 8.4 is 3x the cost of a X4800H!!
That is unfortunate
Marantz cinema 50 vs Denon 4800. Which is best to buy. I will not use internal amplifier of Avr . I will use external amplifier for all channel. Thankyou
The Denon AVR-X4800H, while supporting a very similar feature set, including the speaker layout size, will sound noticeably better. After that it is a cosmetic choice. -Jon
Good stuff...I'm a Denon guy because I feel it goes better sonically with Klipsch speakers...and it has Heos...I guess Marantz does to...but I don't like the port hole...even though it would go with my Panamax 5400...another thing...I own the Denon 4400h and need to use a fan because it gets up to 110 degrees without one...do the other models get this hot?
I agree that visually having a look that fits with the aesthetic you desire is important. All these receiver models can still get hot - fans help. -Jon
I just upgraded to a Denon avr-x4700h from a Yamaha Aventage RXA770. The Yamaha used to run cool as a cucumber in comparison despite providing the same volume on the same speakers (slightly warm to the touch) and the Denon runs HOT!
Why is this?
I have the Cinema 50, do you thin adding external amplification for the front stage or front 3 will give a richer spacious sound? I have a Parasound 2125 v2 amp on the left right and I really think it makes a difference, its got a richer sound. I have an outlaw 2200 single channel amp on the center Im not sure that makes a big difference its probably the speaker. I use polk reserve R500 towers and the center is the R300. I think I'm going to get DIRAC and try it out.
I will have better response once I complete the internal amplifier analysis I will be running this week. Chances are you will want to utilize the external Parasound 2125 v2 amp. Even if the results are similar, offloading some channels will permit those still running in the Cinema 50 to run cooler, better. The center channel is very importance. If you can also run with a similar external amp, I would also recommend. Dirac will be a noticeable upgrade for any Denon or Marantz which supports it. Remember, you will need to purchase an omnidirectional microphone as well for Dirac to work. -Jon
@@ripewave Thanks John, I'm going to try DIRAC I'll let you know what I think after I calibrate. 🙂
Great job as usual Jon! I would like to see what you think of the lowest performing model, but with manual calibration using the Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit and Magic Beans. I think it will come out on top of all of them. It's surprising how inconsistent the auto-calibration is with something as seemingly simple as level matching at delays. They're not off by a lot, but enough to affect imaging and sound stage. I've been doing testing lately as well, and a vocal can sound slightly off-center and to the left on one calibration, and dead center on another. I think what you'll find is the tonality once we do Magic Beans is going to take the entire system to another level.
Joe - with the part 3 post today I am ready for magic beans. Let’s see how far we can take my Marantz Cinema 50. -Jon
Priceless info besides that I already have my Onkyo RZ50 which is a stunning model and fits me perfectly. Will continue to watch your videos. Thanks.
Glad you have finding value in the content. Hope you are enjoying your RZ50 - I feel it is a good model. -Jon
All of these receivers were tested with their internal amplifiers? What amp was powering the emotiva?
For this part 2 video all units were fully powered externally using the same external amplifiers, speakers and room. Therefore the Emotiva RMC-1 was powered by the same setup as well. This enabled me to compare the pre-amplifier sections without other differences influencing the results. The video I am concluding with today is to cover the internal amplifiers. -Jon
Is there any difference in spacious and richness between tiers when I use pre-amps? If yes than why?
Yes. I test using the pre-outs only for all channels (i.e. all external amps) and could tell the difference clearly. Denon and Marantz use better components and power supplies as you move up. -Jon
@@ripewave thank you very much. You are very helpful
Glad I could assist. -Jon
When it comes to Movies does the same apply: Cinema 40 - rich & spacious vs Cinema 50 - confined & thin ?
Yes! I have had the Cinema 50 since fall for 2-3 months, and had the chance to upgrade from Cinema 50 to 40. The difference is quite big! And with Dirac Live Cinema 40 accelerates even further away from Cinema 50. :)
@@Exalix What differences did you find with 40 over the 50?
@@playcold32 More dynamic, cleaner, better separation, warmer and more detailed. Much more true to the Marantz sound signature. The looks of the receiver looks like it means business, like the AV10. The LED lightning is also very nice, but that is a matter of taste - like everything else.
One cool feature I like a lot, that is rarely mentioned is the 2ch Channel setting the Cinema 50 does not have.
Great discussion-thanks for that firsthand account of the 40 over 50 difference. I need to check out the C40’s two channel mode that was mentioned. Not the same as pure direct mode?
@@Exalix Is the Cinema 40 much better than Denon 4800 for movies?
31:56: Did I get this right - you did the listening tests with external amplifiers?!? (if so, which amp did you use? So you used only the PreOut of these AV receivers and did not evaluate their built-in internal amps at all??? why??? (very confused🤔🥴)
Edit: Oh I see that internal amp test is in part 3. Nevertheless I would like to know which external amp you were using here.
I used the following external amplifiers:
Front LCR - 3 x Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 (1-ch)
Side and rear surrounds - 2x Emotiva XPA-DR3 (2-ch)
Height - 1 x Sony TA-N9000ES (5-ch)
Jon
This may sound like a weird question. I currently have a pioneer VSX 304 ran to a monolith 13 subwoofer when listening to movies I have plenty of bass output however, when I listen to music, it’s like my bases neutered, and there are times when I turn it up, there is a point where my base physically does not keep up with my main speakers, I’ve contacted Pioneer about this they couldn’t give me any help as to why this may be so my question is with any of these models you talked about in this video did you notice that difference when switching from movies to music was the base neutered or was it still really close to the same level wise with movies and music?
After listening to all but the Anthem and Emotiva, the Denon’s had the sound signature I was looking for. The Arcam was beautiful in two channel but way to quirky for my taste operation wise. I’ve had the rz50 and 4700 in house and was concerned about the HDMI issues on both. Would love to know if all issues have been ironed out in the 4800 running earc.
I yet to hear the Arcam but have seen reports that also say the two channel reproduction from it is very good. I would like to know for myself and compare against the surround modes. The reviews have raved about sound quality from Arcam but did not reveal what sound modes led to that impression-Jon
@@ripewave I believe it was direct or pure direct. It was quite moving on a few songs but I was unable to get much bass out of my two subs with movies or music in any mode.
Sir I am using now x3800h and I am upgrade to next AVR but I am confused which one can I buy n what brand can I choosen like cinema 40 , AV10 or Denon A1H , X6800 and my last question is Dirac live can I using a licence in multiple AVR or only registered with a signal AVR PLEASE REPLY SIR…
Do u think Denon and Marantz use the same DAC?
Not always. With the chip shortages the last few years they moved some products to difference DACS while others kept the original AKM chips. -Jon
Thanks for the great reviews. Do all of these receivers have 4 independent subwoofer outputs? This is important to me since I have 4 subs. My current Marantz 7702 MkII processor has 2 independent sub outs so I decided to buy a used Audyssey installer kit and have been calibrating all 4 using that method.
Yes - All 4 subwoofer outputs can be managed independently. Albeit, the Dirac option currently does not support multi-sub. -Jon
We need a Game Changer! Wonder what David Grusch’s opinion on this is…..
It seems that the past five years have been implementing the technologies introduced over five years ago and working out the bugs. So not a lot of innovation but rather refining what we already had - or in some cases, cost reducing measures and price increases. -Jon
Strange that you seem unwilling to say that there is basically no discernible difference in sound. Whether distances and levels are set up by Dirac or not, if you were to manually enter those values into the system you'd get exactly the same result. Basically, Dirac, and even Audyssey, aren't really worth it. If you sit and listen to the audio, and play with the distances manually, I have found that all it does is add an echo effect. This is not a multi-channel echo, but it is an actual echo added to the output of the channel (I proved this by disconnecting all channels except one and playing audio while sitting 2 inches away from the speaker). The only distance setting that sounds clean is zero (no processing). The rest of it comes down to room acoustics, and nothing else. AFAIK the brain can't even discern 1 ms difference, and good luck having hearing good enough to tell. In the end, it seems much of this is psychological. The only true test is a blind experiment, but few "audiophiles" would even accept such tests as they want to believe that snake oil works.
Do U Have Any Suggestions On What Great Speakers ( HOME THEATER 🎥 AND MUSIC 🎶 GAMING!) To Get With These Great POWERFUL AVR'S AND POWER AMPLIFIER???
I always aim for a great speaker for music and the home theater and gaming can use the same. Subwoofers become even more crucial for movies and games. -Jon
Thanks!
Thanks so much for the donation. That support really helps me. Looking to continue bringing equipment inhouse for hands-on assessments. -Jon
@@ripewave
I ended up ordering cinema 40.
The Denon 4800 was only 100usd cheaper in Norway. One of the markets where is more competive prices.
@@ripewave
There are so many "content creators" and influencers in this space on youtube.
I appreciate your philosophy and detailed coverage!
I ended up ordering cinema 40.
The Denon 4800 was only 100usd cheaper in Norway. One of the markets where is more competive prices.
I would make the same decision between those two model. I think you will be happy with that choice
So the Cinema 40 and X4800H with Dirac are nearly on par with an Emotiva RMC-1?
Thats crazy. I'm upgrading to a Denon X6700 soon. Hopefully its on that level as well with MultEQ-X.
Perhaps I could have done better with my graph. (my first attempt at visually representing). What I meant to communicate is that the Cinema 40 and X4800H with DIRAC are approaching the sound quality of the Emotiva RMC-1, but I feel still no on par. Given the price difference and the need to purchase a full set of external amplifiers with the RMC-1, the Cinema 40 and X4800H may be "good enough" for many. I would be happy with any of the three.
Jon
I disagree about the menus.
Main idea that Marantz and Denon had was just 1 level of submenu.
Also they have set 8 as maximum number per menu.
So this is why Audio and Speakers menu exists.
Advanced under Audio would bring another level of submenu and would be more complicated.
Yes - the number of menus and depth Denon and Marantz employ are on target as you state. The point I was trying to make was the placement of settings under those menus and how the menus are labeled. I find myself confused about where to go and wonder why I have to leave one menu to access a related function. Perhaps I will grow more comfortable with their placement over time. Right now I am struggling with some of them. -Jon
And John, I know you don't have the RZ50 anymore, but maybe you know anything about this Web Setup Menu - th-cam.com/video/-0lR07ZB1dU/w-d-xo.html - which my RZ50 doesn't have (and I'm wounder if this is a real RZ50 web setup menu or ...). Thanks!
Every TXRZ50 has it, you just have to log in on the PC using name:ciuser and password:ciuser
@@IvanF-m8w exactly, it has a better desktop browsing interface than the Denon. I have both right now.
Thanks @Ivan F and @shaolin95 - you were able to address this question with more confidence then I could have. -Jon
@@shaolin95 can you please help me to find the beautiful one Web Setup? Is that some special steps?
I got last actual firmware.
Thanks!
I really appreciate the donation. Thanks for your support. Let me know what you would like to see for content going forward. -Jon