Why Not Fit The BIGGEST Exhaust Manifold You Can?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
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Traditionally, a bigger manifold has been considered the holy grail of performance because the bigger something is, the more air you can hammer on through, right? But, is this actually true and why do companies like ARTEC Performance do things differently?
Exhaust flow vs exhaust port sizing, turbo inlet, outlet and cylinder capacity and more are all touched on in this interview along with casting vs custom fabrication, materials and a commonly overlooked consideration with aftermarket turbo setups, turbo bracing.
Big thanks to Ben Creswick for sharing his time at GTR Fest and we hope testing with the Inconel manifold applications goes well.
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - @artecperformance9335
0:22 - Why Bigger?
1:30 - A Better Approach
2:19 - Turbo Vs Exhaust Sizing
3:35 - General Flow Considerations
4:01 - Flow Vs Volume Principle
5:04 - Bigger Is Better Mindset
5:42 - Backpressure & Restrictions
6:45 - Product Vs Application Range
8:01 - Cast Vs Fabricated/Custom
9:03 - Cast Material
10:27 - Turbo Bracing
12:31 - Wastegate Intergration
13:45 - Thanks Ben!
13:57 - BUILD.TUNE.DRIVE
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TAGS:
#highperformanceacademy #buildtunedrive #artecperformance #artec #gtrfest #exhaust #manifold #enginebuilding101 #auto #carmods #automotive #motorsports #racing #dragracing #endurance #circuitracing #roadracing #boost #turbo - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Do you have a manifold/turbo brace fitted to your setup?
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - ARTEC Performance
0:22 - Why Bigger?
1:30 - A Better Approach
2:19 - Turbo Vs Exhaust Sizing
3:35 - General Flow Considerations
4:01 - Flow Vs Volume Principle
5:04 - Bigger Is Better Mindset
5:42 - Backpressure & Restrictions
6:45 - Product Vs Application Range
8:01 - Cast Vs Fabricated/Custom
9:03 - Cast Material
10:27 - Turbo Bracing
12:31 - Wastegate Intergration
13:45 - Thanks Ben!
13:57 - BUILD.TUNE.DRIVE
So what's up with that man we see in one frame at around 7:32. ??
Sitting at a table with lots of exhaust parts and turbo parts.
Mine has the downpipe braced to the engine block, the bock has 3 10mm bolt holes right in line with the downpipe. So we made use of it to make a plate with a triangulation to the downpipe. 10 years, zero cracks on the manifold.
No enuh, using ach40 stainless
Downpipe braced to block
It would be cool to see a video on this topic Andre. I am in the process of making a turbo manifold, and bracing it correctly is something I need to research.
Artec has been in the hands of automotive youtubers for a few years now but i havent seen a back to back test with regular tubular manifolds from trusted bands.
I honestly love the look of these cast stainless manifold, and genuinely appreciate the honesty of these guys, hope some major manufacturer gets them a contract for large scale production, giving these guys more money for development would do everyone in the car community a favour
Measuring EGT's at the beginning of each runner will tell you when your exhaust manifold is done. If you run EMAP at the turbine, turbo drive pressure will let you know that is the restriction.
what do you mean by 'its done'?
@@icodirtjumper The exhaust manifold has become a restriction. The runner size needs to be increased for the amount of flow needed.
You won't know if the manifold is a restriction if you only measure the pressure at one location. You need a delta pressure but the pressure has to be corrected as the engine out and pre turbine temperatures can differ by up to 120degC
@@AndrewEG No single data point will tell you exactly what is going on. You have to follow the trail of breadcrumbs.
@@spooler7828 I map engines for a living at an OEM. I can't follow breadcrumbs or other engineers won't be too impressed, probably cross with me. With any flow, the delta pressure is an indication of pressure drop due to flow losses. I don't know any other way to work this out without the two critical variables.
Bracing the turbo is SO UNDERRATED!! I make a billet collector with integrated mounts, and they sell like hot cakes.
Haha wow someone’s finally making a T04H vband standard placement manifold. I had to jump through hoops to get one
Amazing as always, Andre really articulating and clarifying the points of interest in the interview and then succinctly balancing it between tech-specific-talk and digestible information. Some really interesting points that I’m going to reflect on with my upcoming turbo conversion. Thanks! 🙌☺️
I actually had some interesting data that supports what he said. Iv been running a compound turbo bike for a long time now doing some personal r&d seeing what's I can do. When we went to a short stuby manifold about 6x less volume and actually slightly smaller primary that tapers and we picked up some power but we picked up 2000rpm on spool. Interesting back pressure went down too.
Really cool to see more great options available! 100% agree on many aftermarket manifolds being oversized for the application
Didn't realize these Artec manifolds have been on the market so long. I only discovered them a year or two ago. Look to be an amazing solution for 90% of the guys out there.
I recently discovered my cast iron 2JZ manifold had a big crack. Cheapskate that I am, I decided to repair/weld it. So far so good - but if/when it cracks again - Artec it is!
They been on sale for about 2 years. He did other stuff before this
I've seen Artec manifolds featured on a few car channels I'm subscribed to and I'm impressed. Cast stainless is so much lighter than iron that i would totally invest in a turbo manifold and a matching turbine housing in stainless. I wonder if they have a manifold for the Mitsubishi 420A engine that Dodge used in their cars from the 90s?🤔 Great video Andre and HPA team. 💪🏆
Very good insights, especially on the back pressure bit. I guess sizing the turbine a/r will be a key balance between response/lag & backpressure
I always try to tell people to go smaller than you think you should, especially if you're running low boost. Every turbo setup I've made since my first one has been progressively reduced in size, length and volume. Merge the pipes with the most shallow angle possible, but otherwise, get the pipes to the turbo and get it spinning! That's where the power is. I wouldn't be surprised to see most turbo setups GAIN power with smaller manifolds, even if the backpressure went up.
Great video as always!
Just saw your video on '9 boost control problems'. And some of these manifold wastegate positions are wrong, with the exhaust gasses have to take a 'backwards turn' which would run into boost control issues.
Awesome looking manifolds, very oem plus !!
Narrow Ø pipe speeds up gas flow and makes the exhaust gas spool a larger turbo faster. Used this trick on big lazy six turbo applications for decades.
Lovely manifolds, but ur going to have boost creep issues unless you have co2 controlled gate. Making a u flow dump pipe means it is less effective when speeding gas has to make a turn to the gate as opposed to flanking off gas flow direction.
What if we want to install egt and back pressure sensor.. how can we add that to artec? Couldn't they add material on certian part of the runner so we can drill and tap?
Love how he dodged the question of will this be restrictions oft high horsepower outputs. So what is the limitations of these manifolds? We all know long runners and merge collectors make power higher in the rev ranges. So do they have different manifolds for different applications? Ie street, rally, drag?
do they need them ? They offer what they offer and as he said it's more directed to the street/race application, where spool and mid range is of more priority than a sole single high rpm number which is often meaningless. People have made over 1000hp with only 1.75" OD runners on 4cyl motors, and much higher on 6. It's odd then why some feel then need maybe 2" or larger runners. Although it has to be said, it's nice to keep head/port sizes throughout for smooth flow, even if not necessary at all for performance.
Most people probably wouldn't find the "limitation" of a manifold like these, whatever that means to the actual used anyway. Most peoples turbo, or their engine, or their budget, or their ability will likely be more of a limitation.
Very cool! Now show us downpipe sizes 😎 Good old supraforums told me big downpipe mean big number. I would love to know if that's true or not before I cut my firewall to fit a 6 inch downpipe 😂😂
5 inch is plenty lol
If you're making about 3-4000hp, maybe 6" would be good.
Old mate sounds like he’s got it covered 👌🏼
I found the rule of thumb is about 88 gross HP per square inch of runner area. Basically anything bigger is wasting energy before it expands thru the turbine. One of my personal builds uses 1" runners since I decided I was not going to exceed much over 50HP per cylinder
What do you mean by 'cubic inch of area'. Area is inch^2.
@@icodirtjumper i fixed it. I meant to say square inch of area. I was rushing when I typed that and didnt proof read. Thanks for pointing it out
Man have being basically this for ages.. I have a stock manifold In/out RB25 factory cams only makes 270rwkw reliably on nz98 gas... On Ethanol it jumps to 380rwkw. after 8years of daily 98 driving with ,35% of that time on Ethanol and 85/90000kms have finally lifted the head which is fine. Seems like past this point is aftermarket manifold stuff is necessary
Some stuff he said wasn’t accurate. OEMs will see more heat than aftermarket not less. Some engines I’ve tested are 950c and above egts from oems which is nuts! Why the heat insulation around the manifolds and cats is getting to be so insane.
Yep agreed, some of the twin turbo V8s in development at work are 1020degC preturbine temp. Most turbo engines are between 950 to 1020degC
I want a motec systems exhaust
Headers with smaller primaries always perform better. The exhaust shops are so clueless to this. Also 99% of aftermarket exhaust are too big and its making your car perform worse
Makes sense. My gtir had very short runners. 6:45 i reckon you spat on him 😂
I'm going to say it was sweat, however, you could say saliva is 'sweat of the mouth' and then we'd both be right 😂
Hope you enjoyed this one - Taz.
gas velocity and temperature differential across the turbine
Please add video to your podcasts!!! Please please please 🙏
Fellow commenters, would someone please be so kind to offer opinions on artec vs 6boost. I am heavily leaning towards 6boost but open to opinions.
Application is a 1jzgte vvti.
Here in ireland we have some of the worlds best drift cars and drivers and everyone swears by 6boost including my tuner which is a very important consideration
cast vs fabricated, the cast will last longer. There's little doubt about that. And tuners often swear by what they make the most money from selling ( and within buyers price ranges of course ). But 6 boost do seem good manifolds
Nice!
Very cool. Artec get into Subaru please!
That would be an interesting casting for sure. Although the typical tubular manifolds for Subarus can make plenty of power anyway, just reliability isn't so great
I can get a custom manifold welded for the same price if not a bit cheaper than these
O yeah
We did a 1 mm grind out to give reversion
No a lot of meat there so just didn’t go too crazy
Don’t make your exh wheel too big
Lag on any race engine is a pain to drive
Unless you’re drag racing and then you’ll be into Artecs Big Daddy
It seems like Artec could benefit from 3D printed sand molds for casting. ExOne
subaru dont wanna talk about manifold volume and pressed a like
Ben is one smart guy, and truly seems to not follow “this works, guess will keep doing the same”
3-4 years ago any cars manifold was laughable, now he has shown they serve a great purpose.
do you make one for a Audi 1.8t ?
The best manifolds for a 2jz build. My engine builder/ mechanic actually made me get it because he refuses to struggle in tight spaces 😂
haha yes we didn't actually talk about that but completely valid point!
It did actually come up in this interview here as a topic, and funnilly enough it was ARTEC headers this team fitted too: www.hpacademy.com/blog/losing-27-horsepower-and-going-4-9-seconds-faster-how/
They made a few other changes as well though, they didn't just swap the manifold alone - Taz.
We're you able to add egt and back pressure sensor on this stainless manifold?
@@damnitdang It's on the exhaust not the manifold
@804MRMAN emap will be on the exhaust manifold side. I don't think it'll work good if it's located on the down pipe
@@damnitdang Huh? I said exactly what you said bruh 🤣🤣🤣
Bigger isn't always better on turbo manifolds, especially when you take scavenging and velocity into consideration.
You should design in an anti-reversion lip
How does that work ?
@@AndrewEG Usually by making the runner significantly larger than the exhaust port, then gradually reducing back down to the desired diameter. The exhaust gas can travel freely from port to runner, but when it travels in the opposite direction, the rim around the port somewhat restricts the flow.
@@heem6619 that would start to choke the flow at higher mass flows. You are essentially forcing the exhaust gas through an orifice and this will increase the upstream pressure. Adding more pumping losses and more residual gas in the combustion chamber.
@@AndrewEG I think you misunderstand what I am describing. Anti reversion is a proven concept and is commonplace on high performance motorcycle engines. The "orifice" is the exhaust port, which is the same size either way. Anti reversion creates a sharp step up, and a smooth gradual reduction in diameter to maintain gas speed. The step does not impede flow out, just flow in. In a cast design the gradual reduction in diameter can be designed in easily. David Vizard was testing the concept 40 years ago. If you google anti-reversion manifold you should find more information on it.
@@heem6619 yeh I understand you now, I know of the concept but never seen it applied to automotive OE. Ill have to test it in CFD one day
anything below 1.25in on a 4g63 is too small to make decent power
gets restrictive at 600hp which is enough for most.
The interview and clip overall are beautiful. However my mans responses and beating around the bush when asked questions, definitely takes away the educational value of this vid.
Does anyone else who has the ka24de manifold even have their car running beside Jimmy Oakes or is it just sitting in the corner of the room too lol
The fast evo boys in Swananoa are running these manifolds and they’re 700 hp evos
The runners look really small
But I tell you
These manifolds work and work well
They come on boost fast and still make playoffs top end
Trust me big dia runners suck
Why not leave cars stock and actually be able to drive them. Aftermarket turbo high rise blowers all good for lawn art.
You can do that if you want. No one is forcing you to modify your vehicle.
Others enjoy the challenge and competition of performance vehicles and motorsport, and that is how they choose to spend their time and money.
You don't need to understand it, but if you want to be upset by others doing what they enjoy instead of finding your own thing, you are simply becoming a grumpy old man and should probably find an outlet sooner rather than later 😂 - Taz.
Futsek bra
There's always that idiot with no exhaust bouncing off his Honda rev limiter, ridiculously slow and loud (typically house paint on the car, pink and/or purple) 🤦
Congratulations, you have just worked out what I designed, tested and proved worked 17 years ago.
And.
I’m calling you out. Header length and size will not count for anything measurable. Turbo exhaust housing is critical to spool as it’s the main restriction. Equal length header design does count. Not size and length so much. It’s just BS. Who is with me?
I agree. It's not headers. It's a glorified pressure manifold.
Size matters, maybe not as much as people say but getting the sizing and design right does have gains.
Also turbine housing isn't always the biggest restrictions, its debatable that the wheel size is the bottle neck most of the time
Disagree. Seen too much test data to the contrary. The problem with large runners is a loss in gas velocity that then has to get sped up in the scroll of the turbo. Aside from that, any time you go "bigger", you have more surface area to shed heat, further reducing gas velocity. There have been some big threads on ls1tech and yellowbullet from many years ago where some guys shared data from promod-esque builds, going to smaller diameter runners and crossovers resulted in spooling turbos much earlier, which in turn lead to them swapping the exhaust sides for something bigger with the net result being quicker spool, more horsepower and less drive pressure.
@@benwhittaker8630 who are you talking to? You're literally making a case for size mattering.