i've been wondering why work rate and teamwork attributes just do not improve on my saves. Your research shows no amount of training will improve it. great vid
@@ebfm hey max. I know it’s not in this video but do you know if this is true even with individual training focus? Wor and Tea are important to me and I only pick individual focus roles that train either or both. If they have negligible effect that’d be disappointing.
Look forward to seeing that your training ends up looking like! I took all your videos and i tested many combinations but ultimately i ended up with a version of the well known ZAZ training and simply removed all pregame sessions and match practices and replaced those with attacking sessions. The results have been incredible. I found ZAZ's setup to be superior already but adding those 7 attacking sessions really pushed the dial up higher. I also have tried the sessions i created with a club with maxxed facilities and one with middle facilities. The results with even the worse facilities still produced terrific growth. I will say though i think this ties to your findings on ambition, professionalism and determination of the player as well. If a player lacks in those attributes they will not progress properly no matter the training sessions. That's why it really is paramount to make sure youth players you pick up must have determination >10 and even though the other attributes are hidden you must ensure the player has a proper personality and a fair amount of determination to cope with not knowing their hidden attributes. This is based on your previous video findings of how player growth ties more to the hidden attributes than it would first seem. Although now you will force me to test removing the quickness training and replace it with resistance and see what happens lol Thank you for all you do with this testing. For me it has really been a game changer! 😄
Good to hear that my findings have been helpful. Yes Determination is a key attribute in player growth, you should definitely pick a youngster with high Determination.
Great work Max. Congrats! I used the numbers you provided on screen by training unit, not the overall. I thought that it could possiby provide different results (e.g. Attacking training is best for Attacking Unit, but not as good for the defending unit etc). I realised that even when we are talking about Attacking and Defending units, the results are still the same. Attacking session provides best results for the attributes needed for the attacking players, and it is also the best in terms of growth for the attributes of the defending players. I am expecting to see your whole schedule setup! Keep up the good work for the community!
hey bud, yes the results for Attacking the Defending Units are almost identical (very minor difference) which I intend to cover in future videos. Also I will eventually upload the actual excel file online for everyone to download.
Seems to me that FM created training to give to illusion of complexity to satisfy the types of gamers that love to delve in deep, when actually most sessions have the same or a similar affect. This actually scared me off getting involved in training but actually it's way less co plicated than they make it seem. I've resorted to just filling all my training slots, with no rest, and having my players auto train to half intensity once they reach a certain fitness. This keeps injuries away and as your other video shows if your players can train more often at a lower intensity then that's better. Nothing worse for a players development that regular injuries.
The work you put into these videos is insane. As a fellow spreadsheet enthusiast I appreciate you for doing them. The Only thing that I think I see that you don’t mention is the patterns that maybe can be seen within the stats. You have studied these more than me so I expect to be wrong here but I wonder if there are some areas where the descriptions are in some way true, just not as true as we would like. For example, the technical defending and attacking training had the same attributes in the FM description apart from 2 - composure in attacking and positioning in defending - if you look at the distribution of the improvements in these attributes across the defensive and attacking training unit I think you would see a sensible distribution. Perhaps the 2 questions I would like to ask are; how often do the tiny incremental differences and their distribution make sense and how valuable are these tiny incremental differences overall? I know you ran some t-tests before but I’m not convinced that a 1.1 increase over the control isn’t way more valuable than say a 0.7 increase. And this may be more important for certain attributes. Just a thought. Keep up the good work!
Hey bud, appreciate your comments. 1. The attributes that are boosted do differ for the different Training Units. eg. for Attacking Wings (11:09) you can see players in the Attacking Unit grow CRO and LTH while players in the Defending Unit don't. I didn't discuss this in detail in this video but it is something I will need to consider when I construct my training schedule. 2. I don't know how to run t-tests. In my excel tables I highlighted the attributes that grew on average by more than 0.2 but an increase in 0.2 could be within the limits of random statistical error. I do believe 0.2 is an appropriate 'threshold' to regard it as statistically significant because attributes that are not affected by training remain around 0 or even drop in value and become a negative value. The actual amount of boosts are not important at this point, because they can change depending on many factors (eg. Determination, Professionalism, training facility, staff). For now I am focused more on discovering which attributes are boosted by training and which ones are not.
@@ebfm which you have done brilliantly. I have changed my training schedules after watching your videos and I can't wait to compare my schedule to yours when you bring it out. 🤠
I really hope the training schedules you design also tackle part time training as it would be useful to understand how to maximise output with the limited training slots.
I didn't think of that, but now I think I will. The lower leagues have limited number of slots so I'll make a separate schedule to cater for those clubs.
instead of sum of boosts maybe it's better to sort the training modules by sum of boosts divided by how much condition they take away. Community outreach and bonding becomes good options then.
You are a proper gift to the community Max! I wonder now where the slip occured within the development of FMs life from which point almost nothing works as intented. Maybe FM17 had correct training and in-game roles coding (so SI should go back and fix that a base) or it was also a mass lie? Safe to say that is clear that they can not fix this game to work in an acceptable state. Even multiple podcasts with developers in them hints this and the standard reply on their forum is for every bug-fix suggestion that "modifying X in the code will have a unforeseen effect on Z". That is why they are adding new and new shiny features because the root issues are so deep they can not untangle it any more. The deeper the external testing goes, the more and more I am surprised (that means more disappointed to get involved with realism in the game). Thank you for revealing how the customers are being deceived for buying the product on a yearly basis for basically only the database update (that is mainly community driven by the volunteer scouts).
This is always an issue when one game becomes the go to without real competition. They don't have to care whether their game works as intended at all since what's your options? I doubt these videos will impact them one bit to change anything. Unless people stop buying the new versions completely they will just keep plodding along more than likely. You are right though, thank all of the community for all they do who spend precious time testing to make our gaming experience better.
Hey bud, yes it is rather sad. Honestly I would prefer to know that my findings are wrong due to some flaws in my experiment methods, and find out that the game is indeed working as intended. If the game is really broken, I sincerely hope that the developers can fix it.
I think another cool experiment would be to see what affects transfer value. This is clearly affected by factors such as average rating and form - the most interesting aspect is seeing how even players whose attributes don't grow can attract a different transfer value due to various factors. Insight on this front will allow us to be able to find undervalued players and/or be able to flip them for profit. What do you think?
hey bud, sure transfer value is another area that I could look into in the future. I do believe transfer values are definitely affected by recent form & ratings.
When is your next vid coming out and what about individual.great vid thanks for the work.by the way I watched the DLP vid but couldn't find DM vid that would be interesting.
I explored it briefly in my Central Defender video no.2 (th-cam.com/video/qfYZiAfUh-Q/w-d-xo.html) I basically found that Left footed / Right footed defenders showed no difference in performance. But it could be different for other positions.
Great video. My mind is blown. Wasted so much time reading the descriptions. Logically then, just from attribute boost (like a youth schedule) schedule purely from attacking, defending, resistance, match practice is all you need
Hey bud, give me your email and I'll send you the file. I will eventually upload it on a suitable online platform publicly once I finish the research series, not just yet.
A very high quality video. I have a question after I watched this video. Is there a difference between a general training session e.g. attacking vs specific attacking session e.g. overlapping. If yes, which one should we go for?
Depends on the training session. You have to assess each training session individually. eg. Attacking (General category) is better than Attacking Overlap (Attacking category). But Tactical (General category) is worse than Attacking Shadow Play (Tactical category).
Hey man, good to have a channel like this around. I have a huge Excel sheet that I've made that tries to calculate some tactic-based knowledge. Would love to run it by you sometimes, because it also raises a lot of questions. Some testing ideas: - Difference between playing high potential squad, high current rating squad and a mix - The importance of the 'green' and 'blue attributes' per role. - The importance of certain statistics of players in the box who receive corners. (Balance, Bravery, Jumping Reach, Heading, Aggression, Finishing, etc.) - The effects of traits on average rating (performance), they are divided into groups (Movement, Passing, Finishing, Defending). Thanks for taking the time to run these tests with data. :)
hey bud, nice to see a fellow Excel lover around. In regards to PA: I've set the PA of all players to 200 to speed up player growth in my experiments. I've noticed the rate of growth is the fastest when the difference between CA and PA is greater. 'green' and 'blue' attributes: I believe they are just to show which attributes are important for the different tactical roles. When it comes to training, there is no correlation between 'green' and 'blue' attributes and the attributes that grow. Players who receive corners: I'd also be interested to delve more into this but it's difficult to experiment it because corner balls can fly anywhere (own team player, opposition player, ground, caught by the GK etc.) Not sure what you mean by performance divided into groups. Are you talking about the training rating? I can't say for sure whether a high training rating is correlated with greater player growth. I didn't focus on training rating in my experiments since it's the actual growth in CA/attributes that matters, not the training performance rating displayed in-game.
@@ebfm The experiments that I intended to lay out were as follows: - Looking whether the performance of a squad is higher (points/goals/other metrics) when playing with players with PA and CA at different levels, high PA/lower CA squad and higher/medium CA and equald PA squad. To see whether it is more valuable to chose high PA or high CA to fill in gaps in your squad - Not specifically training, but breaking down the performance of players (average rating, but can also be other metrics) of players when they have different level attributes (1/5/10/15/20) in the green/blue stats of their role. For example: how much worse does one player perform when they have 1s in their blues and 20s in their greens, as opposed to 20s in their blues and 20s in their green. This is to figure out how relevant blue stats are in relation to greens. - I've been meaning to try this myself as well and I'm having a difficult time finding stats on the actual amount of corners taken over a season when simulating. You can obviously set in the tactics where to aim corners. Have it aimed at the same players with different stats in each simulation. - Players have 'traits' like 'Gets Into Opposition Area', 'Dwells on Ball', 'Tries Killer Balls'. Isolate how these traits affect the average performance of a player and if they are detrimental or beneficial, and to what extent. Hope that makes sense! Thanks for the response.
@@kanua5 Hey, these are all interesting topics that I'd love to find out the answers to. The importance of green/blue attributes and the importance of player traits. Hopefully I'll find the time to research them soon!
@@ebfm I don't know why it shows up now. It took a month to pass the message. I appreceate the sharing. I also think there is a misplacement of the rows, on max sessions per week. I could show you my findings, here is my post in the SI-Forum So i have been looking at the table of ebfm's last video. There is a mistake in the placements of the rows. I later found again per session vallues. And I do have some takeaways from it. There are some trainingsession in the light blue department that following his data don't have much of the gains. One other finding is that matchprep is (attacking movement/defensive shape and training match) exeptional as attribute trainingsessions (By far better then attacking /defending), while they just don't cost that much in terms of intensity. I do also share the position that the matchprep video was not of statistical relevance. So guys, do your matchprep at the end of days, all week long. Don't use light blue and your golden. If you want my results, you can find me in FM-Zweierkette Discord. Have a great day, Ben. community.sigames.com/forums/topic/567666-player-development-and-getting-good-training-results/?do=findComment&comment=13719768
Great video. Would be interesting to know what impact this has once players go above 23-24 and whether certain training sessions help them to retain attributes. I've definitely noticed drops in certain attributes where it seems we aren't doing enough training in a certain area.
Hey bud, I didn't get a chance to go in depth for players over 21, I will possibly explore this in the future. The pattern of growth does change significantly after 21 - training is more about preventing the attributes from declining rather than causing their growth.
So Teamwork, Team Bonding & Community Outreach are all meant to only work Teamwork attribute but according to your findings none of them do, in fact nothing does, bloody hell lol
@@ebfm i won't waste my time on them anymore, over all it would seem that "general" training sessions Attack, Defence & tactical are probably the best sessions to use to just get the biggest boost but also the widest attributes range as well
113th to like! Thank you for the fantastic research! The fact that ball distribution is useless is so hard to take. But i have an hypothesis. it is because ball distribution might not make a difference when you are a younger player. Maybe the devs coded this kind of training to boost older players mental and technical abilities. I cannot think of specific examples but it is just a sense that i have seen irl players in their prime suddenly improve their mental and technical game and the difference seems to show up most clearly on the pitch with much improved ball distribution. Maybe i am just in denial. it is prolly just denial. It is so hard to accept that these options are just fakes.
Hey bud, it is totally possible that training sessions, including Ball Distribution, have varying impacts on players depending on their age. If that was the case, the game is still guilty of not making it clear to us gamers. I understand your pain mate, it's hard to accept that so many game features are mere placebos!
@@ebfm I could not agree more! In my experience, i have never been able to recommend the game. It is not well made. The coding seems ad hoc, as in focused on engineering results rather than a true engine. Granted, I have been told by other devs that a true engine is technically impossible without hidden variables etc, i.e., variables to ensure reasonable outcomes. but the feeling that the 'game' is not a simulation but just an exercise in futility since the results are coded in is too strong in FM. And then with your results providing evidence that this feeling is legit, sigh. The whole thing feels like a placebo. It is like the echinacea of games. There was this one strategy i used early in release that was "too" successful. i played full defensive team mentality with all players but the CBs set to attack with dribbles in a positional set up 2-3-5. The football they played was beautiful and successful. I won everything with a couple of bottom table Bundesliga 2 teams. And then an update came through and that strategy tanked suddenly. it just did not work at all anymore. Maybe it is just sour grapes, i thought. but then your channel showed up in my feed and i realized i was gaslighting myself because the devs have either released a fake game or it did work at one time and they nerfed their own game for whatever reason. Either way, the devs are guilty of some shady shady.
Nice analysis- yeah all games even AAA ones never match what it says on screen to what it actually does in the background. Just too many chains involved for a company to $$ manage...
I wonder if individual focus training affects attribute boosts in general and for the attributes listed as being unable to boost via training. Especially as some sessions list individual roles as being worked on during the session. Would this be worth investigating before building your training schedule based on the evidence found so far. I look forward to the future videos and what you come up with. Thanks for the time and effort
hey bud, I havent uploaded this yet but I did run some tests with individual training. Even if I set player positions manually on the individual training page, it did not affect the range of attributes boosted. I will go through this in depth in the future.
Not questioning your findings, but the game: the results seem so odd... One of the trainings that increase Vision the most is "Community Outreach" // Flair seems to be the most "trainable" attribute // Plenty of negative effect of Attacking, for instance, on Physical attributes
Hey bud, the results are odd to me too, but they are the results I found.. - Community Outreach does boost Vision by a good amount. - Flair is boosted by most training sessions. - Negative growth in physical attributes are observed with Attacking training: this is because in my test the players ONLY did Attacking training for an entire season, so in the absence of any other training session that affects physical attributes, they will slowly decline throughout the season. The fact that you see negative growth in the physical attributes doesn't mean that Attacking session is the cause of the drop.
@@ebfm, sure and btw I love watching your videos. About the negative growth: the same happens with almost every other training session, however Attacking has a way higher negative influence than Defending for instance.
@@chines1989 Hey bud, I just used excel to add all cells with negative values (across all attributes). Attacking: -6.2 There are many other training sessions with lower values eg. Possession is -7.4, Tactical is -7.3. But now that I think about it, I should still pay attention to the amount of negative influence on the attributes that are NOT boosted. eg. Overall session has positive influence +9.6 and negative influence -3.9 Attacking session has positive influence +13.3 and negative influence -6.2 So if I just wanted to maximise attribute boost, Attacking is better. But I wanted to minimise attribute loss, I would choose Overall session instead. I will reflect this in my next video. Thanks for pointing it out.
hey Max, SI has just indirectly confirmed your findings. I posted your video in the bugs-section and eventually, after a few posts and a lot of time, got this reply: "There's nothing to report, any changes we did make would be for future editions of FM, it was spotted too late in FM22's cycle to be included in any of out updates or hotfixes I'm afraid." I replied that they should put out a statement so that people don't waste their lifetime making training plans and learning what each session does which can be so tedious - and utterly useless as we know now. Also, I have to say not fixing this game and just saying its too late is not fair towards those people who spent their money and are still spending money on this game and expect it to work as intended. Moreover, ... can you believe that such a major "bug" went unnoticed? I mean, how would you even program the training and not notice nothing's doing what it says and so many things do exactly the same? But I should be careful with such thoughts, it's just so hard to believe. Anyways, I am glad that you ran the tests. It kinda bugged me when a moderator indirectly implied that people just "want" certain attributes to go up so much that they then just scream "bug"
Hey bud, I just had a look at the bug report forum & SI's reply. Thanks for flagging it to me, would have missed it if you didn't mention it Yes it's a little bit disappointing that they wouldn't fix any errors in the game straightaway. I guess all I can do is keep running these tests and hopefully it will keep the developers on their toes!
@@ebfm they should at least inform their customers. How many times have I heard people discussing training plans (youtube, the Athletic, etc.) and all without substance, just based on nothing and their imagination that it worked. Anyway, the more important is your work! are you gonna test FM23 as well and see if they fixed it?
it's absurd for a game like FM to have huge mistakes like this in its mechanic and/or descriptions of it, feels like a bunch of other things could be broken and the hard work you put into the game will not be worth it
I look forward to your next videos in the series, however you are lacking two ingredients as far as i see. Tactical familiarity and sharpness. If you look at your results, from a pure developement standpoint, there is no reason to have anything on a training schedule other than attacking, defending and physical. As they boost the attributes the most. You can have 7 of each, so you can have 7 of all 3 during an international break. Less during a normal week. However if you want your team to perform, which you want ofcourse, how does the two ingredients tactical familiarity and match sharpness mesh in to it. I've made a training schedule with only the 3 mentioned training schedules (i havent tested it) and the game says the players will not receive any match sharpness or tactical familiarity at all from it.
Hey bud, thanks for the feedback. Yes I have been neglecting tactical familiarity because I've been focusing more on attribute growth. The past few videos have been all about finding out which attributes are grown by the different training sessions. But TF is definitely an area that should not be neglected when building an actual training schedule. Match sharpness too.
@@ebfm he said this video is complete nonsense and him and SI staff laughing their ... off that you seriously think what you did got correct results. Maybe you should ask him.
@@diggermeddler1169 I haven't seen it, but that's fine, some people will agree with what I say, some people won't. I have faith in the content that I publish.
Without having it confirmed in an experiment, I can tell that there is growth in the quality of your videos. Thank you for your valuable findings
This type of content is incredible. Thank you!
Man i recently found out your channel and i must say I'm hooked. Looking forward to your training schedule.
Skip to 14:30 for the conclusions!
Great video! How much time did you spend to make these amazing tests? 😲
@@philback38 Pretty much all of my free time for the past 12 months.
i've been wondering why work rate and teamwork attributes just do not improve on my saves. Your research shows no amount of training will improve it.
great vid
You can improve work rate by fining them for playing badly, can also raise determination
Hey bud, WOR and TEA improve spontaneously for young players. It's just that they cannot be boosted even further with training. See15:35 for details.
@@BarashAliosmanov thanks man. I always fine players when they play below 6.5
@@ebfm hey max. I know it’s not in this video but do you know if this is true even with individual training focus? Wor and Tea are important to me and I only pick individual focus roles that train either or both. If they have negligible effect that’d be disappointing.
@@riziger I haven't gone in depth into Individual training yet. It's a heavily requested topic and I plan to explore it in the near future.
Look forward to seeing that your training ends up looking like!
I took all your videos and i tested many combinations but ultimately i ended up with a version of the well known ZAZ training and simply removed all pregame sessions and match practices and replaced those with attacking sessions.
The results have been incredible. I found ZAZ's setup to be superior already but adding those 7 attacking sessions really pushed the dial up higher.
I also have tried the sessions i created with a club with maxxed facilities and one with middle facilities. The results with even the worse facilities still produced terrific growth.
I will say though i think this ties to your findings on ambition, professionalism and determination of the player as well.
If a player lacks in those attributes they will not progress properly no matter the training sessions.
That's why it really is paramount to make sure youth players you pick up must have determination >10 and even though the other attributes are hidden you must ensure the player has a proper personality and a fair amount of determination to cope with not knowing their hidden attributes. This is based on your previous video findings of how player growth ties more to the hidden attributes than it would first seem.
Although now you will force me to test removing the quickness training and replace it with resistance and see what happens lol
Thank you for all you do with this testing. For me it has really been a game changer! 😄
Good to hear that my findings have been helpful. Yes Determination is a key attribute in player growth, you should definitely pick a youngster with high Determination.
Can you tell me how zaz scheldue looks like? I cant find it anywhere
Bro does ZAZ have any kind of TH-cam, twitter or something like that???
I have been using one of his tactics i think he has incredible stuff
@@tesla8673 I think he does but he's not active.
Don't quote me on that.
@@MrPercipience how did you get his training set up
The next one is the one we've been waiting for!!!
Another quality video! Congratulations mate and looking forward to hear more from you!
Dude, you must have had a lot of free time to do it all.. Respect and thanks
If you haven't already, would love to see the impact of leadership courses on the leadership stats
I hope that the training schedule video comes out yesterday. Keep up the good work Max!
Great work Max. Congrats! I used the numbers you provided on screen by training unit, not the overall. I thought that it could possiby provide different results (e.g. Attacking training is best for Attacking Unit, but not as good for the defending unit etc). I realised that even when we are talking about Attacking and Defending units, the results are still the same. Attacking session provides best results for the attributes needed for the attacking players, and it is also the best in terms of growth for the attributes of the defending players. I am expecting to see your whole schedule setup! Keep up the good work for the community!
hey bud, yes the results for Attacking the Defending Units are almost identical (very minor difference) which I intend to cover in future videos. Also I will eventually upload the actual excel file online for everyone to download.
Great video as always! Thank you! Are you going to do an analysis on individual training?
Definitely, lots of people have been requesting for it. Maybe in Part 9 or 10.
Seems to me that FM created training to give to illusion of complexity to satisfy the types of gamers that love to delve in deep, when actually most sessions have the same or a similar affect. This actually scared me off getting involved in training but actually it's way less co plicated than they make it seem. I've resorted to just filling all my training slots, with no rest, and having my players auto train to half intensity once they reach a certain fitness. This keeps injuries away and as your other video shows if your players can train more often at a lower intensity then that's better. Nothing worse for a players development that regular injuries.
Why do you say that work rate is not effected by any of the sessions? It is effected by endurance?
Oh gosh my mistake! Work Rate is indeed boosted by the Endurance session. I will have to mention it in my next video. Thank you for spotting it for me
@@ebfm you're welcome 👍
The work you put into these videos is insane. As a fellow spreadsheet enthusiast I appreciate you for doing them. The Only thing that I think I see that you don’t mention is the patterns that maybe can be seen within the stats. You have studied these more than me so I expect to be wrong here but I wonder if there are some areas where the descriptions are in some way true, just not as true as we would like. For example, the technical defending and attacking training had the same attributes in the FM description apart from 2 - composure in attacking and positioning in defending - if you look at the distribution of the improvements in these attributes across the defensive and attacking training unit I think you would see a sensible distribution. Perhaps the 2 questions I would like to ask are; how often do the tiny incremental differences and their distribution make sense and how valuable are these tiny incremental differences overall? I know you ran some t-tests before but I’m not convinced that a 1.1 increase over the control isn’t way more valuable than say a 0.7 increase. And this may be more important for certain attributes. Just a thought. Keep up the good work!
Hey bud, appreciate your comments.
1. The attributes that are boosted do differ for the different Training Units. eg. for Attacking Wings (11:09) you can see players in the Attacking Unit grow CRO and LTH while players in the Defending Unit don't. I didn't discuss this in detail in this video but it is something I will need to consider when I construct my training schedule.
2. I don't know how to run t-tests. In my excel tables I highlighted the attributes that grew on average by more than 0.2 but an increase in 0.2 could be within the limits of random statistical error. I do believe 0.2 is an appropriate 'threshold' to regard it as statistically significant because attributes that are not affected by training remain around 0 or even drop in value and become a negative value.
The actual amount of boosts are not important at this point, because they can change depending on many factors (eg. Determination, Professionalism, training facility, staff). For now I am focused more on discovering which attributes are boosted by training and which ones are not.
@@ebfm which you have done brilliantly. I have changed my training schedules after watching your videos and I can't wait to compare my schedule to yours when you bring it out. 🤠
thank you so much for your hard work!!
Looking forward to seeing your training schedule after this video
I really hope the training schedules you design also tackle part time training as it would be useful to understand how to maximise output with the limited training slots.
I didn't think of that, but now I think I will. The lower leagues have limited number of slots so I'll make a separate schedule to cater for those clubs.
Top 3 best channel for fm
Could you upload the sheet with a google drive or Dropbox link
Hey bud, I plan to upload it once I've constructed the training schedule. Then I'll upload it on Dropbox for everyone to view.
@@ebfm Very excited to have the reference material available for my next game!
Hopefully in making these videos SI might actually test their product correctly instead of packaging it in shiny wrapping. Good work.
instead of sum of boosts maybe it's better to sort the training modules by sum of boosts divided by how much condition they take away. Community outreach and bonding becomes good options then.
Keep up the good work.
You are a proper gift to the community Max! I wonder now where the slip occured within the development of FMs life from which point almost nothing works as intented. Maybe FM17 had correct training and in-game roles coding (so SI should go back and fix that a base) or it was also a mass lie? Safe to say that is clear that they can not fix this game to work in an acceptable state. Even multiple podcasts with developers in them hints this and the standard reply on their forum is for every bug-fix suggestion that "modifying X in the code will have a unforeseen effect on Z". That is why they are adding new and new shiny features because the root issues are so deep they can not untangle it any more. The deeper the external testing goes, the more and more I am surprised (that means more disappointed to get involved with realism in the game). Thank you for revealing how the customers are being deceived for buying the product on a yearly basis for basically only the database update (that is mainly community driven by the volunteer scouts).
This is always an issue when one game becomes the go to without real competition.
They don't have to care whether their game works as intended at all since what's your options?
I doubt these videos will impact them one bit to change anything.
Unless people stop buying the new versions completely they will just keep plodding along more than likely.
You are right though, thank all of the community for all they do who spend precious time testing to make our gaming experience better.
Hey bud, yes it is rather sad. Honestly I would prefer to know that my findings are wrong due to some flaws in my experiment methods, and find out that the game is indeed working as intended. If the game is really broken, I sincerely hope that the developers can fix it.
I think another cool experiment would be to see what affects transfer value. This is clearly affected by factors such as average rating and form - the most interesting aspect is seeing how even players whose attributes don't grow can attract a different transfer value due to various factors. Insight on this front will allow us to be able to find undervalued players and/or be able to flip them for profit. What do you think?
hey bud, sure transfer value is another area that I could look into in the future. I do believe transfer values are definitely affected by recent form & ratings.
Thanks so much for these videos...keep up the great work
When is your next vid coming out and what about individual.great vid thanks for the work.by the way I watched the DLP vid but couldn't find DM vid that would be interesting.
Next vid will take a while, hopefully I can publish it sometime within August.
Have you ever looked into whether two-footed players perform better than solely either right or left-footed players?
I explored it briefly in my Central Defender video no.2 (th-cam.com/video/qfYZiAfUh-Q/w-d-xo.html)
I basically found that Left footed / Right footed defenders showed no difference in performance.
But it could be different for other positions.
Great video. My mind is blown. Wasted so much time reading the descriptions.
Logically then, just from attribute boost (like a youth schedule) schedule purely from attacking, defending, resistance, match practice is all you need
Hey bud, can't say yes to that yet since I am currently doing further research. Stay tuned for the upcoming videos and I'll try to find the answers.
Brilliant
Great job, do you mind sharing the spreadsheet? I would like to create a few charts and comparisons to understand the data better
Hey bud, give me your email and I'll send you the file. I will eventually upload it on a suitable online platform publicly once I finish the research series, not just yet.
A very high quality video. I have a question after I watched this video. Is there a difference between a general training session e.g. attacking vs specific attacking session e.g. overlapping. If yes, which one should we go for?
Depends on the training session. You have to assess each training session individually. eg. Attacking (General category) is better than Attacking Overlap (Attacking category). But Tactical (General category) is worse than Attacking Shadow Play (Tactical category).
Hey man, good to have a channel like this around. I have a huge Excel sheet that I've made that tries to calculate some tactic-based knowledge. Would love to run it by you sometimes, because it also raises a lot of questions. Some testing ideas:
- Difference between playing high potential squad, high current rating squad and a mix
- The importance of the 'green' and 'blue attributes' per role.
- The importance of certain statistics of players in the box who receive corners. (Balance, Bravery, Jumping Reach, Heading, Aggression, Finishing, etc.)
- The effects of traits on average rating (performance), they are divided into groups (Movement, Passing, Finishing, Defending).
Thanks for taking the time to run these tests with data. :)
hey bud, nice to see a fellow Excel lover around.
In regards to PA: I've set the PA of all players to 200 to speed up player growth in my experiments. I've noticed the rate of growth is the fastest when the difference between CA and PA is greater.
'green' and 'blue' attributes: I believe they are just to show which attributes are important for the different tactical roles. When it comes to training, there is no correlation between 'green' and 'blue' attributes and the attributes that grow.
Players who receive corners: I'd also be interested to delve more into this but it's difficult to experiment it because corner balls can fly anywhere (own team player, opposition player, ground, caught by the GK etc.)
Not sure what you mean by performance divided into groups. Are you talking about the training rating? I can't say for sure whether a high training rating is correlated with greater player growth. I didn't focus on training rating in my experiments since it's the actual growth in CA/attributes that matters, not the training performance rating displayed in-game.
@@ebfm
The experiments that I intended to lay out were as follows:
- Looking whether the performance of a squad is higher (points/goals/other metrics) when playing with players with PA and CA at different levels, high PA/lower CA squad and higher/medium CA and equald PA squad. To see whether it is more valuable to chose high PA or high CA to fill in gaps in your squad
- Not specifically training, but breaking down the performance of players (average rating, but can also be other metrics) of players when they have different level attributes (1/5/10/15/20) in the green/blue stats of their role. For example: how much worse does one player perform when they have 1s in their blues and 20s in their greens, as opposed to 20s in their blues and 20s in their green. This is to figure out how relevant blue stats are in relation to greens.
- I've been meaning to try this myself as well and I'm having a difficult time finding stats on the actual amount of corners taken over a season when simulating. You can obviously set in the tactics where to aim corners. Have it aimed at the same players with different stats in each simulation.
- Players have 'traits' like 'Gets Into Opposition Area', 'Dwells on Ball', 'Tries Killer Balls'. Isolate how these traits affect the average performance of a player and if they are detrimental or beneficial, and to what extent.
Hope that makes sense! Thanks for the response.
@@kanua5 Hey, these are all interesting topics that I'd love to find out the answers to. The importance of green/blue attributes and the importance of player traits. Hopefully I'll find the time to research them soon!
What an amazing job, you should get a degree for it
Thanks for great information. Shame I spent over 1000 h game time on Ball Distribution.
oh no 😅
Can you share the results as excel documents? I know hard to expect, but I would like to stare at it for 5 hours.
hey bud, I plan to publish it online sometime soon. Currently looking for a suitable platform online to host my file.
@@ebfm I don't know why it shows up now. It took a month to pass the message. I appreceate the sharing. I also think there is a misplacement of the rows, on max sessions per week.
I could show you my findings, here is my post in the SI-Forum So i have been looking at the table of ebfm's last video.
There is a mistake in the placements of the rows. I later found again per session vallues. And I do have some takeaways from it.
There are some trainingsession in the light blue department that following his data don't have much of the gains.
One other finding is that matchprep is (attacking movement/defensive shape and training match) exeptional as attribute trainingsessions (By far better then attacking /defending), while they just don't cost that much in terms of intensity.
I do also share the position that the matchprep video was not of statistical relevance.
So guys, do your matchprep at the end of days, all week long. Don't use light blue and your golden.
If you want my results, you can find me in FM-Zweierkette Discord.
Have a great day, Ben.
community.sigames.com/forums/topic/567666-player-development-and-getting-good-training-results/?do=findComment&comment=13719768
@@benjaminkuhn2878 Hey bud, thanks for pointing out the error in the number of training sessions. Just fixed it
We will wait your training program:)
Super helpful thank you!
Great video. Would be interesting to know what impact this has once players go above 23-24 and whether certain training sessions help them to retain attributes. I've definitely noticed drops in certain attributes where it seems we aren't doing enough training in a certain area.
Hey bud, I didn't get a chance to go in depth for players over 21, I will possibly explore this in the future. The pattern of growth does change significantly after 21 - training is more about preventing the attributes from declining rather than causing their growth.
So Teamwork, Team Bonding & Community Outreach are all meant to only work Teamwork attribute but according to your findings none of them do, in fact nothing does, bloody hell lol
that, sir, is correct according to my experiments.
@@ebfm i won't waste my time on them anymore, over all it would seem that "general" training sessions Attack, Defence & tactical are probably the best sessions to use to just get the biggest boost but also the widest attributes range as well
@@robbo8074 Attacking and Defence yes, not Tactical. Tactical session has a very narrow attribute boost range.
so none of the "extra curricular" sessions boost the teamwork attribute at all?
According to my research, no.
What happened to your last upload?
Found an error with it, had to take it down. Will reupload in a few days!
113th to like! Thank you for the fantastic research! The fact that ball distribution is useless is so hard to take. But i have an hypothesis. it is because ball distribution might not make a difference when you are a younger player. Maybe the devs coded this kind of training to boost older players mental and technical abilities. I cannot think of specific examples but it is just a sense that i have seen irl players in their prime suddenly improve their mental and technical game and the difference seems to show up most clearly on the pitch with much improved ball distribution. Maybe i am just in denial. it is prolly just denial. It is so hard to accept that these options are just fakes.
Hey bud, it is totally possible that training sessions, including Ball Distribution, have varying impacts on players depending on their age. If that was the case, the game is still guilty of not making it clear to us gamers.
I understand your pain mate, it's hard to accept that so many game features are mere placebos!
@@ebfm I could not agree more! In my experience, i have never been able to recommend the game. It is not well made. The coding seems ad hoc, as in focused on engineering results rather than a true engine. Granted, I have been told by other devs that a true engine is technically impossible without hidden variables etc, i.e., variables to ensure reasonable outcomes. but the feeling that the 'game' is not a simulation but just an exercise in futility since the results are coded in is too strong in FM. And then with your results providing evidence that this feeling is legit, sigh. The whole thing feels like a placebo. It is like the echinacea of games. There was this one strategy i used early in release that was "too" successful. i played full defensive team mentality with all players but the CBs set to attack with dribbles in a positional set up 2-3-5. The football they played was beautiful and successful. I won everything with a couple of bottom table Bundesliga 2 teams. And then an update came through and that strategy tanked suddenly. it just did not work at all anymore. Maybe it is just sour grapes, i thought. but then your channel showed up in my feed and i realized i was gaslighting myself because the devs have either released a fake game or it did work at one time and they nerfed their own game for whatever reason. Either way, the devs are guilty of some shady shady.
Fantastic work. Do you have the spreadsheet available? Or bigger pictures of the results so I can read them?
hey bud, I plan to upload it online soon. Not just yet, searching for a suitable platform
Nice analysis- yeah all games even AAA ones never match what it says on screen to what it actually does in the background. Just too many chains involved for a company to $$ manage...
Hey mate can you say if i should rest once every session.
I wonder if individual focus training affects attribute boosts in general and for the attributes listed as being unable to boost via training. Especially as some sessions list individual roles as being worked on during the session. Would this be worth investigating before building your training schedule based on the evidence found so far. I look forward to the future videos and what you come up with. Thanks for the time and effort
hey bud, I havent uploaded this yet but I did run some tests with individual training. Even if I set player positions manually on the individual training page, it did not affect the range of attributes boosted. I will go through this in depth in the future.
Not questioning your findings, but the game: the results seem so odd... One of the trainings that increase Vision the most is "Community Outreach" // Flair seems to be the most "trainable" attribute // Plenty of negative effect of Attacking, for instance, on Physical attributes
Hey bud, the results are odd to me too, but they are the results I found..
- Community Outreach does boost Vision by a good amount.
- Flair is boosted by most training sessions.
- Negative growth in physical attributes are observed with Attacking training: this is because in my test the players ONLY did Attacking training for an entire season, so in the absence of any other training session that affects physical attributes, they will slowly decline throughout the season. The fact that you see negative growth in the physical attributes doesn't mean that Attacking session is the cause of the drop.
@@ebfm, sure and btw I love watching your videos. About the negative growth: the same happens with almost every other training session, however Attacking has a way higher negative influence than Defending for instance.
@@chines1989 Hey bud, I just used excel to add all cells with negative values (across all attributes).
Attacking: -6.2
There are many other training sessions with lower values eg. Possession is -7.4, Tactical is -7.3.
But now that I think about it, I should still pay attention to the amount of negative influence on the attributes that are NOT boosted.
eg. Overall session has positive influence +9.6 and negative influence -3.9
Attacking session has positive influence +13.3 and negative influence -6.2
So if I just wanted to maximise attribute boost, Attacking is better. But I wanted to minimise attribute loss, I would choose Overall session instead.
I will reflect this in my next video. Thanks for pointing it out.
hey Max, SI has just indirectly confirmed your findings. I posted your video in the bugs-section and eventually, after a few posts and a lot of time, got this reply:
"There's nothing to report, any changes we did make would be for future editions of FM, it was spotted too late in FM22's cycle to be included in any of out updates or hotfixes I'm afraid."
I replied that they should put out a statement so that people don't waste their lifetime making training plans and learning what each session does which can be so tedious - and utterly useless as we know now.
Also, I have to say not fixing this game and just saying its too late is not fair towards those people who spent their money and are still spending money on this game and expect it to work as intended.
Moreover, ... can you believe that such a major "bug" went unnoticed? I mean, how would you even program the training and not notice nothing's doing what it says and so many things do exactly the same? But I should be careful with such thoughts, it's just so hard to believe. Anyways, I am glad that you ran the tests.
It kinda bugged me when a moderator indirectly implied that people just "want" certain attributes to go up so much that they then just scream "bug"
Hey bud, I just had a look at the bug report forum & SI's reply. Thanks for flagging it to me, would have missed it if you didn't mention it
Yes it's a little bit disappointing that they wouldn't fix any errors in the game straightaway. I guess all I can do is keep running these tests and hopefully it will keep the developers on their toes!
@@ebfm
they should at least inform their customers. How many times have I heard people discussing training plans (youtube, the Athletic, etc.) and all without substance, just based on nothing and their imagination that it worked.
Anyway, the more important is your work! are you gonna test FM23 as well and see if they fixed it?
@@andreasaust1510 I will definitely continue my works when FM23 is out. Need to make sure the developers get right this game that we all love.
Token comment.
it's absurd for a game like FM to have huge mistakes like this in its mechanic and/or descriptions of it, feels like a bunch of other things could be broken and the hard work you put into the game will not be worth it
a "mistake" right 👀
I look forward to your next videos in the series, however you are lacking two ingredients as far as i see. Tactical familiarity and sharpness. If you look at your results, from a pure developement standpoint, there is no reason to have anything on a training schedule other than attacking, defending and physical. As they boost the attributes the most. You can have 7 of each, so you can have 7 of all 3 during an international break. Less during a normal week. However if you want your team to perform, which you want ofcourse, how does the two ingredients tactical familiarity and match sharpness mesh in to it. I've made a training schedule with only the 3 mentioned training schedules (i havent tested it) and the game says the players will not receive any match sharpness or tactical familiarity at all from it.
Hey bud, thanks for the feedback. Yes I have been neglecting tactical familiarity because I've been focusing more on attribute growth. The past few videos have been all about finding out which attributes are grown by the different training sessions. But TF is definitely an area that should not be neglected when building an actual training schedule. Match sharpness too.
The players already get MS and TF after the first 5 games of the season and don't lose it till they go on vacation.
Hey bud you got destroyed on this topic by the TH-camr Bustthenet and SI staff. Statement.
hey, what do you mean I got destroyed? do you mind providing a link so I can have a look at it. cheers
@@ebfm he said this video is complete nonsense and him and SI staff laughing their ... off that you seriously think what you did got correct results. Maybe you should ask him.
@@diggermeddler1169 I haven't seen it, but that's fine, some people will agree with what I say, some people won't. I have faith in the content that I publish.