Christopher Hitchens, Naomi Wolf, Rebecca Walker and others discuss feminism (1994)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ค. 2016
- Writers and activists Naomi Wolf, Katie Roiphe, Christopher Hitchens, Tad Friend and Rebecca Walker debate modern gender relations, campus rape, objectification and more.
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Mr. rose, you are a great interviewer, I was sad, missed you when you left. Hope you are ok.
Holly shit, Hitchens predicted safe spaces and the infantilisation of today's society especially the young
Because Hitchens knew socialists promote weakness as virtue. Government only thrives on the desperate and helpless. Marx and other socialists wrote baldly about how to engineer and destroy cultural identity so it could not stand against tyranny.
@@davidwilliams4837 sorry but you got Hitchens all wrong apparently. Sorry I won’t bother explain more, but Hitchens was a revered socialist.
@@davidwilliams4837 victimhood is strong in the right as well. Look at all the protests against restrictions, the conspiracies that are gaining popularity among right wingers as they describe themselves as victims, male victimhood etc. It doesn’t only encompass the left, it encompasses the right as well. It’s in all corners.
@@spacefertilizer Sorry but Hitchens was only a socialist - a Marxist, even - in his early days. By his own account he gradually took on a more classic liberal stance, which he probably had at this time. I believe I saw some C-SPAN clip from the 80's where he mentions being in the process of this transition.
By the way, there are many people, such as me, who believe in a much flatter distribution of resources and are still against demagoguing and feeding and pandering to tribalistic sentiments in order to enforce it; See also Tulsi Gabbard.
@@spacefertilizer What restrictions are you talking about? You wouldn't happen to be talking about the systematic sabotaging of the economy and the outlawing of people's livelihoods conducted by many governments in the last year, would you?
Disappointed how much Katie Roiphe got talked over that entire discussion, she had a lot of interesting points.
She's still doing interesting stuff, look up her piece in Harper's magazine 'The Other Whisper Network'
Better a woman be cut off than the dick of another man.
@@bubbyskittles4802 Fuck are you on about lol
@@iamnotinvolved1309 Did you even listen to the video? It's glaringly obvious what (s)he's talking about -- the story of the woman who cut off her husband's penis while he was sleeping.
@@bubbyskittles4802 really? Like you 100% believe that? I'm curious... If you were repeatedly raped anally over the course of years (imagine the health probls probablyincurred by that. The pain, the tearing, the bleeding, the violation, the helplessness... ) Would it not be justified to cut it off? Would you still rather see a woman get cut off, as opposed to the dick of a man who used it to victimize youbor anyone?
What if the victim was a child.... Still rather a woman get cut off than the rapo's dick he used to violate a child? If you're still thinking cutting off the female is better than lopping off a sex offenders dick then I don't think you have the capacity to really comprehend the Lorena bobbit case or any other conversation that is..... Well for grown ups...
Here's my view on the matter... Rapists, predators, pedophiles, child molesters, etc.... Upon conviction of said heinous act.... Castrate them or kill them .litterally every fucking one of them. Immediately following a guilty verdict, without so much as a phone call home. Take them out of the courtroom straight back to jail and cut thier dick off or lethal injection. Period.
My name is Tad Friend and I'm just glad to be here.
😂
XD
Tad might be glad,
for that I am sad,
He didn't get to say,
the points he had.
@@contentsniffer
Brad is not the same as Tad,
But he too is a friendly lad,
That's why he's sad that Tad is glad,
It's bad to lose the points you had!
hahahaa
It's so depressing to realize how old this shit is.
war never changes.
+tyrgoossens Yeah they were radicals who needed to be gain traction back then. so they had to debate.
Yeah it is the same argument. It like Christina Hoff Sommers said they lost the war in the 90's but kept their tenure and now they've almost created an army
May I ask Who painted your thumbnail ??? It looks familiar.
will DPE Mark Ryden.
Wow, a quarter of a century later and this debate hasn't moved forward an inch.
I'm amazed how accurate Hitchens was in his prediction of the "safe space" culture that now dominates most college campuses.
People are allowed to feel safe within their environment especially a learning environment. I know this may be hard for you to hear but Hitchens wasn't always right and he certainly wasn't infallible. He's human, after all.
@@BleedForTheWorld Nobody has ever said people are not "allowed" to feel safe... What a meaningless statement.
@@kingsweattv2465 That's not true. You often hear disparaging remarks about how "snowflakes" need their safe spaces when it comes to, you know, the most vulnerable people in society which is women and trans people in general. These are the communities where misogyny and transphobia is rampant.
@@BleedForTheWorld If you don't "feel safe" in such a cloistered, coddled-to environment as a university campus, the problem probably lies within. By default, it's about the safest place for an adult to be.
@@BleedForTheWorld the “safe space” you seek is not absent in the university nor has it ever been, until YOU weaponized it to approve your intolerance of differing thought.
When I first watched this, I had no idea who she was. Since then, I found that Katie Roiphe wrote this in Slate --
I first met Christopher on the set of the Charlie Rose show at a low point early in my career of provocation. The attacks were beginning to get to me, and I was thinking: Is it really worth having every nice, right-thinking liberal person in the country hate you? In any event, it felt that morning on the black set, with Naomi Wolf and other clucking third-wave feminists, like we were stuck for all time in Sartre’s No Exit. When the cameras started rolling I found myself waiting for a deus ex machina to save me, and that elegant, rumpled deus ex machina turned out to be Christopher, who in his wry, dazzling way wiped the floor with the clucking feminists.
Afterward, Christopher hailed a cab and took me for cocktails at the Pierre hotel, one of those old-fashioned Fifth Avenue hotels with a heated awning. This felt exotic to me, partly because I was 24, and partly because it was 10:30 in the morning. He was a thrilling talker. We sat in the empty grandeur, and three hours and five drinks later Christopher had somehow charmed me back into the calling. His point, which he was the living embodiment of, was that provocation was fun. In any event, it was fun with him or around him, or when he did it, and the world can be a little bit consoled that the fun and irreverent, erudite, near prophetic charisma is still there in the sentences.
absolute fuckin legend
thanks for posting this brother, big ups
Christopher Hitchens, Intellectual Super-Sexual Slayer of Tyrants and Pussy.
Thx a lot for posting this. She immediately struck me as a 'sane' person. She didnt seem so hostile, so one dimensional, she actually listened. And I wasnt surprised that, after I googled her follwing your comment, she isn't one of the harpies. Wasnt surprised at all.
@TAX COW FARTS He totally was, for Martin Amis hahaha
Any day when I discover there is an hitch video I haven't seen is a day when the world seems a little brighter. Thanks for posting this!
Agreed - haven't watch a new one for ages...Muchly thanks!
I just discovered this today and I agree wholeheartedly.
you are so right GodQueen
Spot on!
shame u got mugged by the alt right
We are at loss to not have Christopher Hitchens' voice in our world today.
totally... christianity would have totally been removed from american society and things would have been so much better
I would say that's a statement that is well understood. I would also say that Naomi was misguided then as she is now.
Naomi is quite rude towards Katie throughout this 'discussion'... - consistently interrupting her, talking over her & glaring at her with some disdain. It's irritating.
And that was why the gallant Hitch jumped to her defense and justly so. In fact, Katie Roiphe seemed to remember that fondly, so much so that years later she wrote an obituary for him. Chivalry 4 the win.
Her goal even 25 years ago appears to be feminising men.
@flipd.d.mon I noticed that, as well. Moreover, I could see that Katie's facial "responses" toward Naomi was one of "Hey Ms. Feminist, stop putting words in my mouth!" Hitchens was his usual brilliant self, but I really liked Katie, as well. The black woman didn't seem to offer up much substance, while seemingly wanting to invoke RACE, RACE, RACE at every turn. The Tad Friend guy just seemed to be along for the proverbial ride.
But the real irony in all the people at the table was 'ole Charlie Rose, who would later have 30+ women accuse him of sexual harassment, fondling and groping. I'm somewhat cynical of the #MeToo movement/claims, but when you have 30+ women accusing Rose of more-or-less the same thing, that doesn't bode well for Rose's professional future in the business.
Naomi is blinded. All she sees and talks about is men being intimidated by strong women, men oppressing women. And she reverts to that so annoying, preaching attitude. Its amazing how calm Hitchens stays right next to her. You can only feel sorry for Katie. Naomi was glaring and preaching at her nonstop. Real harpy at work.
I noticed the rudeness and dismissiveness, too. Not nice.
Hitchens predicts the victimhood business. Dear goodness, I miss this man.
And correctly predicted that it would be privileged men who abuse it
@@TheEvolver311 You are a liar. You twist good Hitchens words. Here is what he really said: "[...] Everyone is gonna start being the victim and men will want a share, men will want a share in the victimhood business. It will be unstoppable and completely negative. And very boring.” There was no 'privileged' in that sentence at all. Why you twist that great man's words for your personal agenda, eh? Either you have no honor or you are incompetent or you have a major hearing problem. Which one is it?
@@user-lq1ph9zo2q Douglas Murray comes close. Even Hitch admired him.
@@robertosheldon9061 Good grief, man. Calm down. It's simply understood that the only kind of person who plays victim is a privileged one. It's axiomatic. Two sides of the same coin. If I said, "And one day people are going to purposely fly planes into the Twin Towers." And someone said, "He correctly predicted that evil people would commit this act of terror," would you call them a liar because I didn't use the words "evil" and "act of terror"? LOL! How else could any rational person possibly describe the men and the act?
@@bobbieboe Douglas doesn’t come close, Douglas uses it to shill for the right wing nonsense and authoritarians like Victor Orban
31 minutes in and everyone in the room wants Christopher. Idk how he does it
Um...eew.
Channeling the mammalian brain without pretence, thats how I like to think about it anyway :)
He is right!!! Trust your instincts and admit you heard the flirty laughter a few times
Yep...they start touching him very quickly... As I would of done in a heartbeat given half a chance!
I saw that too. Women DO love and crave intelligent men.
It's amazing how old the ideas behind certain policies and even laws are! They are talking about affirmative consent, about the infantilisation of campus, about a nanny culture on campus and this is 22 years ago. What is also interesting is that the conversation is pretty serious and interesting to listen to.
I know. I'm from the 2nd wave, so to speak, and around this time (1994), feminism had completely vanished below my personal radar. Quite recently, it jumped back to my attention and I've got to say: I had no idea that today's madness actually is this old. Just baffling.
Awesome upload.
Basically, what you're seeing here is the birth of the regressive left. This is almost exactly one generation ago; children born when this aired are the ones promoting this BS on campus today.
DerLamer I think you always had people who function like regressives. A regressive mind is the kind of person who seeks moral superiority by strict adherence to a dogma. People who threaten that dogma are "othered" and attacked. There are regressive Catholics, Evangelicals, Atheists, Communists and Nazis. The reason we talk about the regressive left today is because it's their turn now and they embody today's dominant ideology in the West.
*No matter how much you sugarcoat it, bullshit is still bullshit ; and you know...bullshit stinks from miles away !*
DerLamer
It seems more like a divergence of a single philosophy into two distinct “sects”, so to speak, more than it’s a birth of anything. It’s the internal turmoil amongst people who call themselves feminists while having different fundamental principles...it always ends up splitting the group into factions.
You’d think people would learn from history when they spend so much time studying it, but it’s no surprise...categorical thinking is useful, and it’s the foundation of “3rd wave” philosophy (so called, identity politics), but it has a very serious flaw that one must be fully conscious of or else it can prove fatal to any philosophy dependent on categorical thinking. Categories in this sense refers to a set of characteristics which one can use to determine if a given object belongs in a certain category. The flaw is this:
When you focus on categories, you over emphasize the SIMILARITIES between objects within the SAME category.
When you focus on categories, you over emphasize the DIFFERENCE between objects in DIFFERENT categories.
When you focus on the distinctions between categories, you’re blind to the big picture.
Think of grades as a simple example to illustrate this flaw. The scale for grading is:
A: 100-90
B: 89-78
C: 77-65
D: 64-50
F:
i m so thankful for youtube, a 1994 tv discussion with Hitchens from a time i was just a few months old, and i can watch it back now
Always the brightest person in the room (no need for name).
We know who it is 🥲 RIP to him
i adore Peter Hitchens
@@vanguard4065 Must have been hard for him..
Goddam Katie Roiphe is so sober minded.
I love how calm everyone is in talks like these in the past. Nowadays it doesn't feel like many public speakers/thinkers/writers are concerned with debating ideas as much as they are devoted to their preplanned attacks.
Could just be an over simplification or over appreciation of the past on my part.
Amen.
Agreed. They exist to a degree but they aren’t televised, and we’ve been conditioned to find toxicity more entertaining than respectfulness.
thank you for posting this, christopher hitchens was one of our greatest minds. I’ve been trying to find this in full for a while now
Young Katie Roiphe is a total star of this video. It is not easy to keep up with Hitchens, but she almost does it.
I think they all do.
17:29 Hitch's comment about university student infantilisation.
25:52 Hitch's comment about the advent of male victimhood.
28:20 sexual assault; oh Charlie, Charlie!
I'd love to have heard these people (especially Hitch) discussing the whole trans thing, specifically the issue of pre/non op trans women's access to women only spaces/environments.
This conversation is such fucking gold.
I'd give 10 years of my own life to have Hitchens back for 5.
I'll give 20
@@8balljunkie Let's make it crowdfunding so we have at least 1000 year hitchens' security for stable society
Take 5 from me
He wouldn't take them. He would want you to live yours properly.
I wish you would! (Just kidding, couldn't resist). We could all do with a few more decades of Hitchens.
So much more sanity, respect and level-headedness in this conversation about feminism than you're likely to hear in most places today. Happier times.
Now, dudes would be shouted down for daring to have opinions during this.
Hitchens is being chivalrous here -- he's like a great scholar stuck in a bad undergrad seminar, and knows it. Naomi Wolf manages to dispense the entire glossary of cultural left self-reference.
He's holding back too much; his English reticence kicked in. He made the points he needed to though, succinctly as always.
@@uyuyuy99 I love him dearly
Hitchens is rational. Some of those women not so much
@@DBEdwards nonetheless Naomi Wolf is probably the sexiest woman alive
I thought Kate Roiphe and Naomi Wolf were both good, though , Hitchens was more broad-minded (and, as usual, astonishingly articulate)
Really enjoying seeing Mr Hitch having fun in this discussion, but Charlie Roses' discomfort with the subject matter is hilarious
Well he is a sexual assaultor so he has some mental baggage
Watch his interview with Hitchens about the Clinton scandal. By the the end of the interview he is literally physically contorting trying to defend awfulness
Hitchens calmly dismantling Naomi Wolf and Rebecca Walker, they literally can't keep their hands off him hahaha
Really enjoyed this discussion, everyone makes good understandable nuanced points. "Problems" like this will never go away. I think it ultimately doesn't come down to woman versus man, but rather just self-identification, roles, groups. Aslong as there's an effort to understand one another and talk it'll be fine.
22 years later, Naomi Wolf is still spewing the same garbage, almost word for word.
she is such a scripted plant
Wow. The womansplaining coming from Naomi Wolf is beyond ironic. Could she possibly be any more patronizing?
I tried to imagine being Katie, being at the center of that never ceasing, patronizing stare. She handled it quite well. I would have prolly gimaced involuntarily multiple times haha. Im too emotional for such debates. But I was impressed with how calm and collected Katie and, naturally, especially Hitchens appeared. He was the definition of cool and collected.
Wolf seems to argue (think?) on a basis level, while the others moved forward, analysing in several steps. When Naomi again starts to talk, the others are just waiting to get back into step 2 or 3 in the analysis.
If you look what she's up to these days she's apologizing Islam and telling people they should read the Quran to find out that it's not like Western media portrays it. Well I did read the Quran. Turns out she's a fake feminist. With very questionable views about sexuality, that might just as well come from a conservative.
YES! how obnoxious
Such an interesting and respectful discussion full of a diverse range of well-thought out discussions; this could never happen today.
We'd all better bloody start working on getting back in that direction then, because continuing the other way is a whole lot worse
th-cam.com/video/IXrp5YnacaY/w-d-xo.html
Today the women would screech after the men said 10 words and walk off.
Actually it happens all the time, MOST of the time actually. You are looking in the wrong places
Katie was the director of my graduate program at NYU--and my professor---she is brilliant.
Every time you speak, I become more of a fan.
Your TH-cam channel is incredible.
@@brennancarter7721 thank you so much! [i'm very late seeing this lol]
So what is your mindset on the Feminism this days ?
This makes me miss Christopher Hitchens all the more
25:50
Hitch predicts the birth of the MRA movement. Damn. Again, nearly fucking prophetic... dann it Hitch xD
And MRAs are all over this comment section proving him right... :(
SierraSierraFoxtrot Best way to avoid a problem is to prevent it from coming into being.
Too late for that :,(
(I'm an anti-3rd/w-Feminist, but not an MRA. Two wrongs don't make a right etc etc)
so guys don't have a right to have a movement to help them but its ok for women to have feminism wow double standards, the experience I have had with MRAs is people, men and women that are working to help men take control of their lives, health and money after being victims of a one sided court system , false rape allegations, victims of abuse from their female and male spouses. not the women hating like most idiots seem to think they are, they are victims that need help in a society that doesn't bat a eye lid when a evil bitch starts a hashtag #killallmen or a group of gamers are called rapist.
he actually predicts the SJW movement more illustratively.
hardcpy Neither should have one. I have a tad of sympathy for the MRA's but you immediately concede the argument that feminism has a right to be doing what it is doing from its inception. Ideologically it would be better to question them from a perspective that looking at any issue from a gendered perspective is wrong.
Katie Roiphe only feminist on there speaking a bit of sense.
Anyone else tired of Naomi Wolf interrupting Kate Roiphe? Kate will be saying something intelligent and worth hearing, and Naomi will cut in with her ridiculous bullsh*t and nonsense. Charlie really should have shut her down and said "Let the woman speak!" Even if you set aside the fact that Kate made good points and Naomi was spouting ignorance, it is just plain rude to constantly interrupt and make such condescending remarks. Shame on you Naomi, and good for you, Kate.
You understand that everyone was making fun of Kate Rolphie during the entire interview? Hitchens called her, in the first few minutes, disparagingly, "St Augustine."
Her entire concept, then and now, of feminism has been to ride the wave of established, uncontroversial channels, repeating "men aren't *all* demonic rapists" for decades, something nobody else on this panel ever disagreed with. Their interruptions were, "Of course, but..."
Everyone there was interrupted multiple times, that tends to happen when a conversation is set at a table with six people. Anytime she was interrupted was thankfully cut in by a more thoughtful statement than she's ever been capable of. Notice the dork who agreed with her, sat strategically to her left, spoke less than anyone else in that room. You are that man, only once removed and ineffectual.
If you lack the courage to say specifically why you dislike Naomi Wolf, then you're either incapable or too afraid to express your opinions, probably because you know they're idiotic.
the most profound moment for me was around 36:29 when Hitchens points to the underlying complexities and variety of relationships that we experience as human beings, and that is my problem with most of the feminist movements today, that they always reduce the relationship between men and women to conflict.
well pointed out, too bad, Hitch could not expand on the subject
Wow this is a great conversation. Around 45:00 things get really good. So much going on, everybody is good here, everybody seems honest, charged up, and smart as hell. Nothing has really gotten better in this conversation in the past 20 years.
Naomi "Condescending" Wolf.
I feel like this conversation happened yesterday, except that it wouldn't be a conversation because there's no way we would be this civil with each other in 2021
So this is where Hitch got his cancer from. Straight from the source I see.
too soon. still too soon
i laughed
+Milo Stones He died like 5 years ago
nadji guemar its always going to be too
soon.
Gosh... I nearly pissed my pants.
Funny how I knew Hitchens was a genius when he was alive. But now looking back I realize he was also a prophet. True one of a kind mind
And a guru at that table
Hitchens a prophet lol no 😅 please, educate yourself. He was a neo con drunk
The other women on the panel interrupt Katie Rophie quite a lot.
Naomi Wolf has always seemed a bit crazy.
Hitchens predictions in this video turned out to be prophetic. Though a lot of his more recent fanboys on the Right don't seem to realise how pro-women's rights he always was. See his "firing line" appearance with William F Buckley for his spirited defence of 'the women's movement' as he called it. .
Even though Hitchens could be a tad too full of himself at times it would be great to have him around to call out people like Jordan Peterson and maybe be a moderating factor on the mens rights and similar movements. I have a feeling that Hitchens would very much disapprove of all that preaching of christian morals and self repression that JP represents.
@@pleggli Would he really disagree terribly with Peterson though? If there's anyone alive with as close to the same opinions as Hitch, it would have to be Stephen Fry, and he was happy to share the same side in the Monk debates with Peterson...
@@conorcorrigan765 Stephen Fry did say as sort of a disclaimer when he started that he disagreed with a lot of JP's points of view, but that despite that, he wanted to do the debate precisely because they both were both against political correctness.
@@conorcorrigan765 Yes, he would definitely disagree with Peterson. Hitchens was First Class, A grade, Peterson is kind of the opposite. Peterson does a fine line in addled, dishonest, sententious twaddle which gives the strong impression of not liking or valuing women overly, and which is trememdously popular with disaffected mainly white teenage boys whom he pretends to 'empower.' He's also unable to work out if he believes in God or not, the poor little sap. He probably would not dare open his mouth because one thing Peterson knows is that he's no Hitchens. Do you know the origin of the word 'hysteria'? Please examine Cabbage' second sentence/paragraph and ask yourself the simple question I cannot be bothered asking you.
@@hinteregions The only people who think Peterson hates women are rabid feminists, and I can say with absolute certainly that Hitchens would not have been one of those...
I don't seem to see such quality dialogue as this in media today..
Hitch bless you for posting this.
Really liked hearing Hitchens again. WOW, the daggers in Katie Roiphie's eyes when Naomi wolf talks are deadly.
She just didn’t like Hitchens sticking up for her
"Masculine Empire"
Every dictator had a mother, is something we in Romania used to say.
So, Katie Rophie was before her time and Naomi Wolf plus Rebecca Walker were just part of a movement.
Thank religion.
Doesn’t change the fact that male dominant empires have been beacons for corruption, have horrible records of human rights and has suppressed human health and development.
"As I say in FIRE WITH FIRE". Jesus, how many times did Wolf say that?
Well like she said in Fire with Fire, a lot I guess I didn't read it
This is my first time watching Naomi. Wow look at the personal stabs she throws at Katie. And around 33.10 how patronising she is to Christopher. And I bet he felt he couldn't retaliate because of his gender... Wow can't help but laugh
He wouldn't let it hinder him and find an eloquent way to do it sensibly, but retaliating at her simplistic views would've been beneath him.
Naomi Wolf is such an unpleasant person. She has to indignantly respond to everything.
+YoshitakaAmano Shit. You're good.
she hasn't even changed smh
Doesn't stop her from being right about what she is saying.
Yea, your right--but boy is she man eye candy
Very much like Hitchens in that regard
"men will want to share in the victimhood business; it will be unstoppable and completely negative and, I think, very boring!"
26:00
Listen to 25:59 and let that sink in... Looking at Universities around the world today, it's shocking how correct Hitchens was.
Naomi Wolf and Rebecca Walker were just unable to keep their hands off Christopher Hitchens.
They did seem pretty entitled lol.
If it were him, wo touched them, it would have been seen as
harrassement...
hitchens himself is literally a smooth whisky 🥃
i noticed right away how "handsy" they were with him... how can a man develop such swag and charisma?
Note the elocution in evidence in this former generation of women. No vocal fry or up-talk, brassy teenaged tones, hedge-words, weasel-words, etc. Whatever you may think of Naomi Wolf's or Rebecca Walker's politics, their rhetoric is persuasive and a joy to listen to.
Naomi still hasn't changed her tune even now after 22 years have passed... despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. She says "sexual assault used to be part of the dating process"... fuck me sideways she is so outrageous. She is constantly interrupting and coming out with meaningless and baseless assertions and so condescending ... especially to the other women on the panel
It DID tho lol. Do you even talk to fitness douchebagas or other assholes who have a lot of sex? They believe sluts should not be able to say no. There is a lot of frat type competition against men in trying to come up with news hazing or other bullshit in dominating specific women types. And historically, consent was not vocal but rather if you were already in a sexual situation with a man he could do whatever he wants to you. He wouldn't get prosecuted.
***** I live in the real world today and not women's fiction novels or the past. I suggest you do the same
Stephen Catton: The past is prologue to the future (and is also part of the present.) You'd do well to remember that.
Neville6000 How far back in the past do you want to go back?
Jules Jacobs So what? Men are obsessed with cuckold porn. Does that mean all men want their wives cheating on them? They found that cuckold porn is the strongest fantasy in men.( sharing wife with a buddy etc)
I'm trying and failing to imagine a conversation like this happening now.
How about now? Lol
Now?
The thumbnail of this video sums up this whole conversation!
TV used to be so civilized.
No one watched this on TV.
If a man behaved how Naomi did in this interviewer we would be calling him toxic and arrogant. She is over inserting herself and her responses are a garbeled self serving mess. And if a guy were patting a woman, patronizing her "good girl!" that would be worst of all.
Christopher Hitchens at 25:52 was so right. The group called 'Men going their own way (mgtow) springs to mind. Not only was he an intellect and vastly intelligent, he was also a visionary. RIP.
“MGTOW” is men becoming slaves to their egos and their own resentment.
It is Limited knowledge and a system of brainwashing men who are vulnerable and don’t know any better.
He was highly intuitive. He saw behavior patterns and could see how they would play out over decades
why do they keep cutting off the only woman there who is actually not talking about "empowerment" and other stupid bs?
Nearly 23 years later and we're still having the same conversations but have cannibalised the discursive process to the point that this conversation seem otherworldly and utterly unattainable. They even warned against this happening. If there is a single issue that progress relies on right now it is problem of discourse. It has completely broken down.
I see these comments from 4 years ago and think, "you haven't seen anything, yet."
I see these comments and think of nothing but delusions lol, I've watched like 3 debates in the last 3 days that are exactly like this, discussion is alive and well and you guys here complain far more about safe spaces than you do about anything else lol.
This whole youtube comment thread feels like a bunch of dudes jerking eachother off in their own version of a "safe space" As they tell other people they're incorrect for having different ideas while complaining that people "can't hear differing ideas anymore"
"Men will want to share in the victimhood business." Damn, Hitch called it.
When you realize that 90's where more progressive than 2010s.
P.S. Hitch was ahead of the curve on many events happening today, especially the victimhood business concept.
Thank you for uploading
Incredible to watch a debate this civilized from 2023 and by the looks of it, some of the talking points in this video still appear in current political discourse but this time with far more polarization (in part due to social media as a leading factor) in addition with the genderstuff bring propogated.
Hitchens perfectly predicted the MGTOW movement here and by extension the red pill/masculinity type movement. Sad to see that the discussion hasn't moved any further with the situation improving but rather everything deteriorating.
interesting they're saying Antioch is an "extreme" at 10:30 and now it's state law in California and New York
Also 20+ years elapsed with no real progress on the issue. We men never address any grievance ourselves thus allowing them to be taken care of for us.
Just for fun
How to Pronounce Antioch: th-cam.com/video/x8zAQ3HgVug/w-d-xo.html
Wait.... i'm not sure I got the point, did Naomi say something in "Fire with Fire", I couldnt' quite tell...
Such a cool discussion. Love it.
I see that even back in the ninties Naomi Wolf is just as insufferable as she is now. Power this, power that, how about being specific for once and actually explain what you are talking about.
And she insufferably pushed the "1 in 5" rape myth. I cannot conceive of how this lie has managed to survive so long.
+Vainglory87 bad ideas do seem to have an unusual way of sticking around don't they?
They sure do my friend.
You have to do that is your head first. And most people (almost all feminists) don't know that being critical of your OWN ideas is a thing.
You have to do that is your head first. And most people (almost all feminists) don't know that being critical of your OWN ideas is a thing.
Really nice to see people to discuss things in such a civil manner. Things have changed so much. This would be a "triggered" screaming, dismissive act in 2018.
25:50 Christopher perfectly predicted the identity politics situation we are currently in.
And 4 years later, the tap on the shoulder and the “very gooood!!!” bothers me so much. But yes, mansplaining is the real problem
So what is Naomi Wolf's book on feminism called again?
"How to discredit feminism"
28:18 “Things that are not okay...”
Rose: “Things like harassment?! 😰 “
I think the reason Wolf interrupted so much was to get more chances to say "Fire with Fire". What a hack.
25:52 Hitch is remarkably prescient here. Seems to me that's where we are now.
Agreed. A lot of the anti-feminist men (and boys) are really the same as the feminists they're hating against. Just looking for victimhood.
Claudius Atlas
Actually, I'm an anti feminist because I believe in women's emancipation, many anti-feminist argue from this viewpoint
which stands counter to the feminist victim narrative
Humanity didn't accomplish so much by thinking someone was holding us back
we achieved so much because we persevered against all odds
"Wage gap", "Glass Ceiling" all lame excuses to shift blame from one's own lack of effort
Nightdare Lack of effort, or simply different priorities and aptitudes. Nowt wrong with that, either.
JLongTom
I would agree with "different priorities and aptitudes" if they were so honest and realize that those "other" things will not be reached that way
But instead, they simply feel entitled to them
Hell no! Either you work for it or shut up about it
JLongTom 8
5 mins. in, Rebecca Walker promotes "intersectionality" and "power" is the standard on whether others are judged on "ism's" or not, in 1994
She was ahead of her time.. And not in a good way
I am always skeptical of ideologues. Especially the professional variety. Feminist or otherwise. Beyond this, it's sad that civil discourse such as exhibited in this old clip is nigh on impossible today.
Wolf is insufferable throughout this discussion. I found Katie far more sensible, it's a pity that Wolf wouldn't let her finish a sentence.
Naomi Wolf talks over people just like a man
All of Hitch's jokes go straight over everyone heads.
Like bloody marvelous champagne. :)
"I apologize to Mr. Mark for that." Lol
Hitch is truly a genius, every instance of his existence in a debate or dialogue has proven to be exciting,
Nobody ever thought it was ok to abuse another human being. I feel like this is important to actually say. I think something else is array in the abuser's life that puts pressure and they break. Our culture that is full of alot of unnatura pressure and unnecessary judgement alongside of it. We all feel trapped in our everyday lives and our instincts start to kick in, when we check out. Life is not easy and it shouldn't be, we need challenges to grow emotionally. Then there are some people who give up when the going gets tough and turn to drugs alcohol or food & sex or any other addiction. That can create an environment for even worse abuse.
Every woman in this interview speaks of power as a collective - white power, male power, female power, etc. - and uses terms like "we" or "us" or "women". The more feminist they are the more they do this.
The men speak in terms of individuals and the self, and use terms like "I", always requiring responsibility for who they are and nothing else.
I can't help thinking individualism vs collectivism is actually the primary force behind feminism and the "dis-empowerment" women feel. They genuinely conceive of power as something held by identity rather than individuals. They think of power as originating from belonging, rather than from setting yourself apart.
Great Point
I thought the same thing. It amazes me how feminists assume that there is some kind of fraternity among all men ,and some kind of sisterhood among all women of this planet. We all know there is not. I mean i am a man, but i care more about my mother, my sisters ,my wife than some man who happens to have same genitals as me. Its stupid in my view.
Thank religion 😉 Good point though
Not necessarily plenty of men who think they are “woke” on gender differences and part of the redpill
Community push the “us vs them” mindset in their propaganda content.
This video is an actual crystal ball!!!
28:37 Katie’s face listening to Naomi Wolf. Absolutely priceless.
28:37! You missed even more priceless couple of seconds
@@beethbachmoz well so I did, thank you. There, fixed it.
Naomi cant listen to any other opinion except her own. As softly spoke as she tries to be. Passive aggressive.
changingwithin Katie agrees with you. 18:28 I thought (hoped) she was going to shoot lasers out of her eyes when Naomi interrupted her yet again.
At 19:00 Wolf talks about pornographic magazines aimed at heterosexual women that are outselling Penthouse. Does she not know that the biggest buyers of “Playgirl magazine” were gay men? Women hardly ever bought those magazines. “Dirty” books yes, but not magazines.
You are correct. She was proven wrong there.
Can someone please remind me of the title of Wolf's book? I think i missed it.
Fighting Facts with Feminism, by DoMe Wolf
@@just83542 😂
Lol
What term do they call Naomi wolf at the end that she hasn’t heard before but they say she is one?? Sounded like dermi or doomy feminism?? I can’t find it on google and curious???
Yes....television back then....feel like I'm on another 🌎
How Naomi, in the beginning, referred to Clinton as "...a feminist president". I wonder what Christopher might have thought, if anything at all, of that characterization at that time knowing that he would write "No One Left to Lie To". Having read the book recently I'm unable to separate myself from one word every time Naomi speaks. The word is "Triangulation" (reference Dick Morris's strategy to enable Clinton to get into the White House as a new political creature. She's working hard at having it both ways.
Ironically, Bill Clinton is like a toddler compared to the sexaul shit Donald Trump has been involved in... but Hitch didn't live long enough to see the 2016 election.
Our evidence is that a bunch of high school boys were given a survey? 100% sure half the guys i went to high school with would give those responses as a joke and a form of protest against such ridiculous survey questions. You cant use these awful surveys as evidence or you'll have many crazy ideas about the way the world is.
Hitchens and Walker were both prophetic here; Hitchens about advancing infantilism and Walker about (the will to) power.
How bad have things become that you have to go back 25 years to see a sensible discussion.
Very interesting that this talk was on the same year that "Who Stole Feminism?" were released.
Anyway...
Wolf's Rudeness Fest:
5:56 starts the passive aggressiveness
8:45 it's not passive anymore
12:14 is it going to be always the same kind of interventions?
17:12 femsplaining CH
18:20 NW wont let KR speak then goes on her own monologue
... it's on and on and on and on...
25:50 CH on infantilisation and victimhood
26:50 The ghost of the "straight white privileged man" finally appears in the room
Thanks.
Sargon and Milo and Rubin need to see this, might have to make a twitter
Do you like these people still?
Anyone know what piece of writing hes talking about at 41:59 ?
Does anyone else here think Naomi Wolf sounds like she is answering questions with pre-packaged answers and statements? What part of keeping an answer simple didn't she understand here? Does anyone read her books? This session has failed to mention that if women just like blacks want to get ahead, then they are going to have to understand the language of money, law, and industry.
Oh, feminism started in the late 18th Century? Really? What about Boudica in the 1st century? Many women throughout history have asserted themselves. The Empress Matilda, 12th Century, Eleanor of Aquitaine, 12th Century, Theodora the
Byzantine Empress wife of Justinian in the 6th Century passed many laws protecting the rights of women. She passed a law to prevent the trafficking of women. She also reformed divorce laws to give better benefits to women.
So still think women started to kick ass in the late 18th century?
For all their rhetoric about rage and power, they start gushing like little schoolgirls when Hitch speaks candidly about male insecurities
Charlie Rose being so engaged in this seems pretty ironic after all the sexual assault allegations against him... and the way he has conducted himself afterwards
3:44 "Feminism is scrupulously fair and compassionate to men"
Two faced drivel
31:48 ; Notice the condescending pat on the shoulder the black feminist gives the hitch. Those sort of tactics might throw off a lesser man but not Christopher.
It looked genuine to me.
She really didn't like without erections or testosterone that we wouldn't be here. She also didn't like that men can't help it either, which we can't help to inseminate.