Did Billy the Kid die in 1881 or 1950?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มี.ค. 2024
- I came across a 1952 Topps Look & See Billy the Kid and when reading the back of the card, I had to investigate what really happened on July 14, 1881. Did Billy the Kid meet his demise at the hands of Pat Garrett or as an elderly man in 1950? Below is a series of podcasts with writer Dan Edwards which I think makes a great case and unwraps his evidence.
• 307: Billy The Kid: Th...
307: Billy The Kid: The Man Who Died Twice
• The "Death" of Billy t...
The "Death" of Billy the Kid - Did Pat Garrett Kill the Infamous Outlaw? Part I
• The "Death" of Billy t...
The "Death" of Billy the Kid - PART II - Mr. Morrison's Evidence
• The "Death" of Billy t...
The "Death" of Billy the Kid - Part III - Nobody Ever Questioned Pat Garrett - บันเทิง
Hello Im John and thank you for the best story on Brushy Bill Roberts.My family was tied to The Kid. In Pat Garrets Book the Real true life of BTK. And shortly after a movie of The Kid Time Life Magazine did an article on 8 / 4 /1941 Where they Interviewed my Family . I not only have prominance . But i have Very convincing proof that Brushy Bill knew something that proved his identity beyond the shadow of a doubt. My uncle started a family tree and spent 55 yrs doing research on our family tree. They came here in 1576 the BTK tie to my family is a small part of a story i have put into book form. It has not been published as of yet. But im close. Thi info i have on BTK will answer once and for all Brushy Bill was in fact BTK. Thank you. John
John, thank you for your comments. If or when you do publish, I'd like to read your book and findings. It's a really interesting story that Brushy Bill tells and as I've said before, the official narrative has a few swiss cheese holes in it and gets a little confusing. I'm okay if they find out Brushy Bill wasn't Billy the Kid, but then it opens up for more questions as to how he knew details not known to historians until after his passing? Either he knew a regulator, was family to one or he was in the area at the time? Or he really was Billy the Kid, but a DNA test I think may solve this?
I just recently finished my book after 3 yrs penning it and 15 yrs researching on top of my uncles 55 yrs. Im at a stand still as i need to figure out how to convert my hand writen book into a microsoft word document. Im 70 yrs old and i dont know computers. As i stated my family came here in 1576 They were involved in . The wild horses of N. America the American revolution the Pueblo revolt indian wars the Founding of Albuquerque a private Spanish land grant of 176000 acres. The Alamo. The Buffalo soldiers. Ft stanton My grt grt gpa is listed in Pat Garrets book twice. BTK was in love with my grt grtAunt i have proof on all of this and the 1941 time life article listing my family as a sorce on BTK history. BrushyBill is BTK.
I heard of Billy the kid when I was nine years old on American history, Mr stroll waa a great teacher and I’m sixty nine and been a fan of Billy
Great discussion! Regardless of when Billy left this world; Billy the kid is immortal!
Excellent video
Fascinating stuff Ryan. It still blows my mind that nurse didn't know who Billy the Kid was! Everyday I teach my daughter or have her do quick research on famous historical figures. She loves it. Was it really 1988 when Young Guns came out? Good lord man, I'm getting old! I'll check out some of these resources you posted.
I couldn't believe it either. While you can't know everything, Billy the Kid is a major historical figure! I think you'll find Dan Edwards to be highly entertaining and he's going to leave you with more questions than answers and a storyline from the media that isn't accurate. If Brushy Bill wasn't Billy the Kid, he certainly knew more about what happened than anyone else and confirmed things accurately after his passing.
As far as the nurse is concerned I think we're simply dating ourselves. I've encountered the same leaving me just shaking my head until I realized that when I grew up the Cowboy's and Gunslingers were still fairly fresh in people's minds but all that is getting further and further away not to mention a lot of folks would-right or wrong-like to forget our violent past. History getting swept under the rug, you know-"Good Riddance To Bad Rubbish" type thinking. I myself love history and his "History Through Cards" channel and I hope everyone remembers to give him a like and their support. Just this discussion today helps me immensely-Thanks! G
Fascinating video! I am a big fan of stories of the old west, and Billy the Kid in particular. I had heard of Billy before I saw the Young Guns movies, but the movies definitely made me more interested in his story. Even if Young Guns II is full of inaccuracies. I still learned about characters that I was unfamiliar with, including “Arkansas” Dave Rudabagh, and Tom O’Folliard. The cool thing about Rudabaugh is that he is believed to be the only person to have known Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett, and Bat Masterson. Personally, I do not believe that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I think Pat Garrett killed him either. There are too many questions that have no answers for me to believe that he did. The biggest being that they were very good friends at one point. I saw a good documentary on the History Channel where they were doing analysis on the pictures of Brushy Bill Roberts, and Billy the Kid. There are too many significant differences between the two images that they used for it to be the same person. Billy the Kid does have two cards in the 1930’s. The 1933 National Chicle Dare Devils, and 1933 Goudey Indian Gum. Both are cards I have tried to win in the past, but have yet to be able to pick up. Maybe one day. Thanks for posting this! Thoroughly enjoyed!
I'm leaning towards Brushy Bill, but if it's proven that he wasn't Billy the Kid, that's okay too. Dave Rudabaugh seems to have been everywhere and known everyone. He didn't have a good death in 1885 but I'm a big Christian Slater fan. More than likely Garratt shot Billy's friend and covered it up. I've never seen any of these cards in person especially the National Chicle (possible exception of Amelia Earhart).
Anyways thanks for an interesting discussion people!
Great stuff awesome job
Thank you so much. This one was fun.
And as far as getting the bounty of $500 whether Pat got that or not is neither here nor there because he would have split that with Billy.
And that they were riding together at one point and anybody who knows tightly bonded outlaws will tell you you have each other's back to survive. It's just second nature. Not only that it's common code amongst serious individuals.
1881 all ready!
I suppose whether he got paid or not is debatable, but what's not debatable Is there's no pick after the death or grave properly displayed.
When you take into account that one of the guys with Garrett the night that he supposedly shot Billy said and I quoute " thats not the kid " so make of that what you will.
Poe wrote that he initially thought that Garrett had shot the wrong man but soon realized that it was Billy the Kid when the body on the floor was looked at by candlelight by Pete Maxwell and a few other people who gathered up at the scene. I am not sure why the Brushy Bill Believers try to keep pushing that one statement, leaving off the rest of the statement.
@@richardpierce7819 actually what poe said was " pat we've shot the wrong man , he's still out in the yard "
WOW! I had no idea that Pat Garrett was never paid the bounty on Billy The Kid's head? Wouldn't that be an automatic considering the risk involved not to mention the trouble involved in setting something like that up? Just for starters you didn't have cars to wisk yourself around in and anybody who's been in the desert Southwest knows that the distances between points in most cases can be vast. If someone went through that much risk and effort to get one of the most dangerous men alive at that time their not doing it for free! Not to mention according to history Billy and Garrett were said to be friends at one point so who's to say Garrett wasn't trying to give his buddy a fresh start. I don't see a serious and dangerous character in his own right simply not getting paid for something as monumental as bringing down a big name like The Kid. Also history shows after a gun battle the photographer's were all over it (Jesse James, John Wesley Hardin ect.) and I've never seen a pic of The Kid come to think of it. This sheds a new light on things for myself personally. No pic and no bounty paid?
Neither, I just saw him yesterday.
This is true he was having coffee with Elvis,Tupac and Sasquatch. I seen it with me own eyes.
I'm of course talking about a death pic-All propped up with their guns displayed. G
He was overtaken by outhouse fumes
All those folks and no photographer? Sounds like a picture taking event to me. And you can google it pat never got paid
If you really think about it , brushy had nothing to gain except a pardon , fame wasnt really that much of a motivation to a man in a small town in the middle of nowhere . That guy was definitely hiding thats for sure . I believe that brushy was the kid . I found compelling evidence in plain sight . Its just almost completely impossible but this may be the exception to the rule and a fluke of history . Cause i found evidence he did live .
What's interesting about this, why would someone, especially in advanced age ask for a pardon for a murder if he didn't commit one? Murder is always on the books. Brushy Bill certainly took a chance showing up not knowing if he'd be arrested.
@@historythroughcards-shortc814 not only that but meeting those old friends before the hearing , if he didn't know them or vise versa they would have all said so and knowing the people in fort Sumner back in 1881 there names and what they were doing . I have wrote a book called the waskowee wabbit holes of billy the kid about the evidence I have found
1950.
You're welcome.
For whatever reason, but I just don't see a professional like Pat Garrett risking his life for free. Sorry. Not to mention they were friends.
Forget that Pat Garett, Ash Upson and Lew Wallace all had said that Billy was from New York. We believe he’s from there because his brother and stepfather have stated multiple times, in more than one census over the years that say he was.
I don't put too much stock into the claims made my Pat Garrett or even Lew Wallace. Garrett, though several accounts isn't a very reputable source. I'm more than willing to acknowledge that Billy the Kid was born in New York if there's documented proof, but there's no question here that whatever you believe, there are multiple inconsistencies in the death of Billy the Kid. Based on when Dan Edwards has uncovered and what Brushy Bill told Morrison, I would have to believe that Brushy Bill either was there or had knowledge that wasn't uncovered until after his death. It's just too odd a coincidence.
Well said, and pardon me if I expand a little. When members of the Kid's family, who survived him by many decades, regularly went on the record about the New York origin, there is no better evidence than that available. This includes William Antrim's application for a pension where he states that Catherine McCarty's husband died in New York. As for Garrett, Upson and Wallace, they all had known not only Billy but many of his associates. Of those that actually knew the Kid and went on the record, the consistent theme is he was originally from New York. It's not like Garrett, Upson and Wallace made that up. The evidence suggests that this is what the Kid himself told his friends. Wallace had one or two up close and personal conversations with the Kid, who had also grown up partly in the Governor's home state where his mother is recorded in the Indianapolis city directory. The Kid likely thought that this connection would be of value and may well have told much of his life history to Wallace. Birth records were a very hit and miss thing in those days. Millions were born in America without such a record, and there is probably no such document for the Kid or his brother. And yet, for all the reasonable evidence that he was born in New York, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to contradict that.
If you believe Brushy Bill was born in a Texas town that did not yet exist, consider this. The Buffalo Gap Chamber of Commerce states on their website that by1877 they had 100 residents. Imagine what they had 17 years before that, about the time Billy the Kid was born. Try zero. If Brushy was born there, it puts him right where he belongs, nearly 20 years too young to be Billy the Kid.
One must remember when William Morrison first heard of Billy the Kid still being alive from Jesse Evans, he was using the name Ollie L. ,"Brushy Bill" Roberts. Ollie Roberts was a real person who died earlier. It's quite possible Ollie was born in Texas. If Billy the Kid was using Ollie's identity, then he would tell people he was born in Texas. That also explains the age difference. Since he was using Ollie's identity, why would he say anything about his past life? That would defeat the purpose of the identity change. In closing, at this point in time I have no interest if Billy the Kid was or wasn't Brushy Bill.
@@ferdburfel6347 There have never been any records found for an Ollie/Oliver "L" Roberts, or any connected William H. Roberts. This has been researched and no one can produce any of it. There is a long record of Oliver P. Roberts, born in 1879, within the family, in Census and WWI Draft registration records. The Roberts family knew their own member, known to us as "Brushy Bill," and many of them are on the record as stating that he could not possibly be who he claimed to be. He was born Oliver Pleasant Roberts and there are no death references to anyone by that name who died young. Rather, only for the family member they knew, who called himself Brushy Bill. There is no dead cousin or anything like that.
Add to this that no record has ever been found or produced to support Morrison's story about the Joe Hines probate claim, that this Joe Hines even existed let alone that he was Jesse Evans, who would have been at least 95 years old if still living at the time. This whole story starts with that fabrication in order to give some veneer of credibility to Brushy, but every single element comes down to what Morrison claims was told to him by the fictional Hines and Brushy himself, with not even a single document to support it.
Yah as far as they knew , but Katherine was trying to hide billy from his father so she kept it between her and billy , my mom told me family secrets that she told noone else , women do that. They love to hide things in they're heart.
With all do respect I have to say that your video is peppered with several errors concerning the actual history of Billy the Kid. I have to say I agree completely with the comments left by Rolland, he’s spot on with his assessment of the one area he chose to correct. I’d like to add a little concerning the death of Billy The Kid. He was without doubt killed in Fort Sumner on July 14 1881 by Sheriff Pat Garrett. Some simple facts clearly prove that. You say their was no “death certificate” there was a Coroner’s Jury Report. The president of this jury being Milnor Rudolph, members were Anto Sabedra, Pedro Anto Lucero, Jose Silba, Sabal Gutierrez and Lorenzo Jaramillo. They all viewed the corpse, knowing Billy in life concluded he was shot and killed by Garret. Several people in Fort Sumner viewed his body, either that night or the next day at his funeral. In their lifetimes not one soul ever changed their story. It’s said three people can keep a secret if two are dead, are we to believe a town filled with people carried this secret to their grave? That the man they buried wasn’t actually Billy? Not likely. Also you bring up there was no death photo. First of all photos of dead outlaws were not as common as people have the misconception of believing now. Just google photos of famous dead outlaws, you most won’t see much besides Jesse James, it just wasn’t done. Besides that, again Billy was shot and killed in New Mexico in July. Their were no photographers in the tiny town of Fort Sumner. If for some reason they wanted a photo, again not the norm, they would have had to ride for over a day to the nearest town, when a photographer was found he would have to bring a wagon filled with equipment and chemicals back to Fort Sumner, presumably taking at least a couple more days. During this time Billy’s corpse would be exposed to the high New Mexico temperatures, no ice or refrigeration. There would have been nothing left to photograph that would have been agreed upon today. These are just a couple facts, and I’ve gone on too long. I would like to strongly suggest in closing that you search for information in the future from actual reputable historians, Fredrick Nolan, Robert Utley, Maurice Fulton to name a few. Dan Edwards is a fraud. Sadly he misleads people at the cost of history to line his own pockets.
Thanks for comments on this subject. I attempt to look at both sides of an argument and try to report without bias. As you know, that's increasingly difficult in today's media and research. It also appears, like in Archaeology, that a lot of people - scholars, academics, etc have their reputations to uphold which is understandable, but often are married to their ideas dogmatically. I am not. However, I do think it's healthy to be a skeptic of a narrative such as this. I do think that the only way this will be resolved is with DNA evidence, and that requires a body of Billy the Kid. I tend not to think Dan Edwards is a fraud, I could be wrong, but at least he says that he too isn't married to his ideas, that Brushy Bill could be a hoaxer and that the entire story of what exactly occurred during and after Billy's demise needs close and unbiased examination and actual DNA evidence. Greatly appreciate your comments here on this, as I want people to see both sides of the argument and decide for themselves based on the evidence presented.
Where to begin? First of all the death of Billy the kid was said by Pat Garrett. He controlled the narrative. There is no documentation anywhere saying anyone saw the body. In fact one of the deputies said the body stayed in Pete Maxwell's bedroom all night. Another one said it was taken to a carpenter's bench. Well, which one was it? Why didn't Pat Garrett turn in the corners in quest? There's so much more. Sorry people, Billy the kid wasn't killed that night .but you believe what you want. That's what makes this story interesting. Also, do your own research. Lots of research. I did. Don't go by word of mouth from other people.
@@ferdburfel6347 There are a lot of inconsistencies in the official story. I completely agree that people need to do their own research and to think for themselves. Unfortunately many don't want to do that.
Yes people have to do their own research. They need to do lots of it. The book you mentioned by Dan Edwards, I've read it. I'm not saying Brushy Bill was Billy the kid. I'm not there yet. My main focus has been if Billy the Kid died in 1881. Another good book is by Steven M. Sederwall. The " Dirty" on Billy the Kid. One last thing even though there's lots more. Another person by the name of John Miller said he was Billy the Kid.I have read up about him. Here's my question. What I read about John Miller he led a very quite unassuming life. In Dan Edwards book Brushy Bills life was anything but that. He put himself out there to be seen. If Billy the Kid survived that night in 1881, which I believe he did, which of the two directions would he have gone? Just a thought. Once again, I'm still only interested in the facts of 1881 at this time.
And you were there ? I don't think you have the slightest clue what's really going on . I found billy in 1889 and 1892 he got away and got over on you and the Santa Fe ring and got paid.
First off pat garrett did collect the 500 dollar reward , also people of ft sumner gave him 7,000 glad to be rid of bonney , now : domingo lubacher friend of billy made the coffin,francisco medina friend of billy dug the grave ,vincente otero,juan pacheco,jesus silva,nasaria serbe,celsa gutierez,abrana garcia , deluvina maxwell, paulita maxwell as well as 200 townspeople all saw billy bonney dead, billy bonneys ears were detached at the lobe , brushy roberts were attached that doesnt change with age ala fingerprints, brushy roberts eyes were gray , billy bonneys were sky blue , brushys neice geneva pittman has the family bible and says brushy was NOT billy bonney , brushy roberts grave is in the back of hamilton cemetary under brushy bill roberts 1879-1950,brushy roberts is in every census in texas from 1900 at 20 to 1850 at 70 ,brushy stated many times the lincoln war was three days cause thats what he read in burns book trouble was it was a 5 day war ,brushy stated he was left handed like the tintype but when the tintype was flipped according to rifle and buttons THEN he was ambidextrous , brushy said he didnt kill olinger and bell he simply walked outta lincoln courthouse HUH? Brushy could not name pat garrett at gov mansion, he called pete maxwell “sam” he called billy bonney “ him” pat garretts children would not even question him thinking hes a phony,now about his 26 scars thats nice but billy bonney had 2 he was shot fleeing mcsween burning house and shot retrieving his rifle from dead brady , brushy said he was shot by garrett and his deputies in the head the neck the jaw. Photos of brushy show no scars , no one in sumner ever reoported a gunfight , there never was a joe hines in any florida census from 1890- 1950, william morrison was NOT an attorney , he sold car parts , and copy machine parts , brushy bill has been debunked , demolished, destroyed by all historians , brushy dan edwards is just selling books and photos and pushing a blasphemous narrative
Garret was only able to collect the reward through a special act from the legislature which I think wouldnt have been a normal thing in the 1880's if there was proof of death such as a photo? Today I would want DNA evidence and a body to prove the person in that grave - wherever it is - because all these people's "testimony" and recounting appeared to be inconsistent over the decades. I think this is a really interesting topic that deserves more scrutiny and conversation.
No
He was shot by the cowardly garrett end of story
What a cowardly statement , Garrett was no coward , him and billy were family , he was protecting him