My New Eagle Surface Grinder Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Well Guys, here is a valuable lesson in making assumptions and the knock on effects these can have that just keep on giving!
Hopefully we will be fully back together again by next week and in business.
I hope there is value here in learning from my stupidity!
I think your bearings were in backwards and the angular contacts (which can handle radial and axial loads) should be in the front, near the wheel, but I'm no expert. Here's a thread on Model Engineer site that talks about this grinder and shows some bearing photos from other rebuilders: www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=148388 Maybe you could get in touch with other rebuilders over there.
Hi bkoholliston, thanks for the comment and support of the channel. I tend to agree with you, I have had a look at the threads you sent (thank you) and I can see what others have done. The issue I have which I will show on the next video, is that the casting at the wheel end is only bored out deep enough for one bearing which leads me to believe how I disassembled it was as factory. For me to change this I would need to split the casting and send the top piece away for boring out (I think, not measured my mill against it but I don't think it will fit). With all this in mind I think I will go as originally planned and see how it performs. I can always rethink it at a point in the future. Hopefully the next video will show this (assuming I remember to film this bit). Thanks again for your suggestions though and I do agree with you. Cheers, Jon
It does seem a very odd way of assembly with the least rigid bearing assembly carrying the wheel.
@@howardosborne8647 certainly does Howard, but as you will see in next week's video, it all looks factory so I am pretty sure that's how it came originally. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Jon
bummer Jon, I guessed like mine your old motor would not be a star delta. one thing though, you should re do the diamond dresser block! re drill the hole on the other side to put the dresser in on an angle and what you do is rotate the dresser every time you use it which makes the diamond last much longer and keeps it as a point. I did my first one like you and after about 4 dressings the diamond was flat and then does a real bad job of dressing the stone, since changing ive been using the same one for 6 months with little wear and still sharp.
Hi Loz, thanks for the comment and feedback. Interesting idea, something I was never taught all those years ago but it makes sense to me. What angle did you use? Does this also mean my milled flat on the diamond pen shank is also not a good idea? I have bought 4 of these diamonds for about £12 so I have 3 left to mature the design. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Yes I got the exact same diamonds Jon, I tilted over only around 7 degrees or 5mm from top to bottom was told to go around 15 degrees but working well as is, the flat is not really needed mate with a slight nip on the round shank it never moves anyway.
@@LozHarrop Thanks Loz, I think there is enough meat on the bottom of my block to mill the angle on it, I will make the mod when I get it all back together (which is proving fun, it has still not stopped challenging me yet, looks like more effort required to beat it into submission!) Cheers, Jon
Hello from Michigan. A good design for a diamond dresser block is a piece of 1"×2"×2" steel with the hole for the diamond drilled in at 15 degrees, on the centerline of one of the 2" widths, 3/8" from the edge. The end opposite the diamond hole, has a 15 degree angle machined on it, so that the included angle of the edge and the diamond is 30 degrees. You then can set the block on the 15 degrees edge and use it to dress the side of the grinding wheel, the angle allowing the dressing operation to get very close to the spindle nut. Hope this makes sense to you, imperial measurements and all!
Hi old magician, thanks for the comment and feedback, and the support of the channel which is much appreciated. I totally understand your well described design (very well explained). I may go with a half way house and put a 15 degree angle on the diamond for now, I can always make the mod on the opposite end if I need to dress the side of the wheel (bit nervous of doing this as my wheels are only 1/2" wide to start with but may need to, to help with balancing as there is no wheel balancing option on the clam shell on this machine. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Jon, dressing the side of the wheel is no big deal. I always touch off on the highest spot, raise the head until the diamond just clears the wheel nut, then feed in a couple of thousandths at a time and using the table traverse wheel, move the table to the right, passing the outer pheriphery. Once passed the first time, you can start "dishing out" the side, leaving the outer edge a little high. This reduces wheel to work contact and heat build up. Actually the best condition is when you use a Norbide stick to feather out the edge to a sharp point. The result will be a pleasing crosshatch pattern on your workpiece, when sidewheeling. Just don't try to take more than .001"at a time. Best of luck and enjoy your adventure!
Hi Jon my milling machine has the angular contact bearings on the cutter end now there is always going to be play on a single row bearing very small I know ,but wouldn’t this way you’re doing it cause vibration at the wheel head .what do you think..? Thanks for posting
Hi John, thanks for the comment. Yes, I agree with your statement and with taper roller bearings it would be much better to have the double bearing at the front, however, the way the casting is machined, there is only space for 1 bearing at the front so it would mean having to bore out the casting at the front to take the double bearing assembly. Not brave enough for this kind of magic yet so will give it a bash as I described and see how it performs. Cheers, Jon
What ho Jon,
I see you have invented a whole new generation of rabbit hole in which to delve.
Looking at your spindle arrangement i wonder which is best yours or mine. Early Elizabethan grease is probably chewing gum by now whichever bearing you have but set in the belt from inactivity is also a problem. 😢
You reminded me that you have to use the correct pair of wires to power the coil in the contactor, Only two wires are true the third providing the extra phase is out true phase. So you have to use the right pair for the coil and if the motor runs backwards you have to swap those ones round not any two, like proper 3 phase. Fun isn't it 😉
You can convert the old motor but it means opening up and finding where the three coils meet and bring them out to the box, but only true idiots like myself should bother like i did with my Myford. Its not technically difficult but the are some snags for the "unaware".
Oh the youth of today, what is the world coming to not realising 9.5ish is 3/8", as Fraser would say "doomed, we're all doomed"
Funny what gets views, most of mine have a few hundred but one has 16K! Who knew?
ATB and looking forward to seeing it run sweetly.
c
PS hoping to get my thumb fixed tomorrow and as i said to Mr F , you will hear the cheer from there.
Hello Chris, thanks for the comment. Oh I am an expert at rabbit holes, plenty more where those came from! Just as I thought I was getting on top of it, guess what, another......... well let's say interesting challenge! Its the machine that just keeps on giving. I think I just about followed your electrickery advice (really not one of my strengths)! I have totally fixed it now by removing the starter box completely from the machine, I will have no more issues with it! Yep, don't know how I missed the 3/8", I guess it was because it was sold as a metric size so I was just expecting metric diameters, no harm done (other than I should have drilled and renamed the hole at an angle it seems). I will attack the original motor at some point to find the star point and convert it. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop if only your name was Alice.😉
Methinks you have spent too long in the world of metric. I would have and indeed did angle the diamond and i wouldn't have put a flat on it so you could turn it every now and again so as to keep a point, for whatever that is worth.
If you do convert the old motor to 220 three phase, use the right wire not whatever you have to hand. Use cotton tape or cord to tie the new wires tightly to the coils as much as possible and use appropriate varnish to seal thing soild. You dont want any chance of things vibrating and causing wear and then a short. Not thst i have any idea what im talking about you understand.
ATB
c
PS no cheer yet but the consultant was a lovely lady and we shared memories of training at Guy's a goodly number of years ago, oh and she loves badgers so im not just joe public to her, which must help when decision on what treatment time comes around
PPS .i have been thinking about you being surprised at grinding to 10micron limits. Well i often turn on my lathe to 10 or thereabouts micron, i would do better but the lathe is rather old. There is a trick or two for "accurate" diameter turning that you might not have been taught by your teachers, but i suppose we experts have to keep a few secrets to stay one step ahead of those pesky upstart youngsters.😂😂😂😂😂
@@chrisstephens6673 I love reading your replies, you take years off me every time ha Haa! Good luck with the thumb. 👍👍👍👍
@@jonsworkshop 👎👎👎so far but we live in hope
Hi Jon,I am also not an expert but did you measure the actual power going to the energising side of the contractor?I assume it is a 220 volt one.Might there be a difference if you tried a different phase to it ...?
Hi Robert, thanks for the comment. No, I only have a really cheap (£5) meter and I get really nervous poking it in live stuff, especially as I really don't know what I am checking for. The coil is both 240 & 415 and was set up for 415 so I just left well alone, giving this some more thought, I think you may be right as one of the phases from the static converter is nearer 240 I think so this may have been the issue. Anyway, the box is now removed so it won't be bothering me again for a while (hopefully). Cheers, Jon
9.5(3) mm is 0.375 inch imperial 3/8.
Hi Peter, thanks for the comment, yep, I totally missed it, I guess because it was sold as a metric size, I was just expecting metric sizes so just picked up the metric micrometer............ schoolboy error! Cheers, Jon
Hi John is that a left or right hand thread on the wheel side of the shaft
Hi baconbuttybash, thanks for the comment and question. It's a right hand thread hence the CCW rotation of the wheel which is all a bit weird to me being used to the J&S 540. Cheers, Jon
Why didn’t you just buy a single phase motor?
The drive to a machine tool affects the finish to a much greater extent than you might imagine. That is nowhere more true than with a surface grinder. A three phase motor gives a much smoother drive.
Hi Dion, thanks for the comment, I did consider it as an option but had heard that you can potentially get harmonics transferred through to the wheel due to the on/off or back/forth of single phase AC supply. 3 phase will definitely be smoother (as long as I get all the wires in the right place! Lol) cheers, Jon
Hey man, we're all human. I now have a 3hp VFD because I didn't bother to read the label on the mill motor when I bought it. Turns out the motor itself is single phase, and was only running on two legs of the 3-phase input. Simplified the wiring and it's tickety boo now, but like you the surplus parts from that are destined for another project. Which, like yourself again, won't be this year, lol!
Hi Everett, thanks for the comment and reassurance that I am not alone making these sorts of poor assumptions! It's all a learning curve and hopefully I can save someone else making the same mistakes by showing it in all its jaded glory! Cheers, Jon
Such is life. We've all been there ;) Cheers Rob
Hi Rob, thanks for watching, yep, and I guarantee we will be there again before not to long lol. Cheers, Jon
It's great to show the mishaps along with the successes Jon.....I certainly don't get it right first time every time. At least you're getting there and the result will be worth it.
Cutting that keyway will be simplicity compared to what you've already done!!
Atb Carl
Hi Carl, thanks for the comment and support. I am a big advocate of showing the stuff that goes badly, if only to give you lot a good laugh at my expense lol. It will certainly be worth the effort and just think, I now have a spare motor for a future project that I don't have to submit a financial application for to my finance director 🤣. Cheers, Jon
Becarful with the knee lead screw as it comes bloody close to the motor
Hi Matthew, thanks for the comment and support of the channel. Great suggestion, I checked it out tonight and it just clears the new motor......... Only just! Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop good news, i know as i had to relocate the terminal box on mine.
Hi Jon,
This really is the beauty of TH-cam... You recording your challenges will help someone doing the same job in the future to have an easier time...
Looks like you've got everything under control now... See you on the next one.
Take care.
Paul,,
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. Yep, I am a big advocate of showing the stuff that goes badly. There are far too many YT creators that pump out the perfect project time after time, nice to watch but not really very helpful. Cheers, Jon
Well done Jon, same scriptwriter as me. You start one job all full of good intentions and find yourself weighed down with ten spin-offs. At least you get back on track whereas I forget where and what I started originally. lol One question, why did you not make the hole for your diamond dresser a through-hole ??? I'll lay you odds on those two bits of mild steel will be solid when you come to change the diamond.
Hi Del, thanks for the comment. Lol, yep, good intentions totally ruined by bad assumptions, I should know better! We are getting there now. Good point, my thinking was not to have a difficult to clean recess that would hold grinding dust which would then potentially pull down onto the magnet through any residual field and scratch up the magnet surface if I move it around a bit. That was my logic but I can see the value in your comment, I will give it some further thought. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Can't remember not having through holes in any of our dressing tools but you could always plug the hole with a temporary bung if scratching is a concern to you. Either that or put a cross hole in the actual diamond dresser shank so you can lever it out.
Hi Jon, I’m so pleased that you changed the bearings, cos it really dose make a difference to the grind finish, as I said last week, I have got the very same grinder, but mine is 240, I was just thinking it might have been a bit cheaper for you to have changed yours to 240, but sounds like it’s a bit late now lol, hope all goes well for ya mate 👍🏻😉
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment and support. Yes, I would have stripped the top end eventually so just thought I might as well crack on with it now and then I know it's right, which will help me diagnose any other issues as I can rule out bearings. I didn't want to go 240v as I have heard that you can get a resonance through the wheel caused by the AC on a single phase (don't know how real this is but it passes the straight face test). Cheers, Jon
Good to see you are getting things sorted. The new motor and its mounts look great. The feed motor on my Harrison Mill is a Brook Griffon which I rewired to delta. Looking forward to your next update. I have taken some inspiration from you and made my first tentative video.
Hi Carl, thanks for the comment. Yes, I feel like it has stopped taking the mickey out of me now and I am back in control (god help us!) LOL, glad you found some inspiration, I suppose videos like this help as you sit there thinking "well, I couldn't do much worse than that". Have you uploaded yet? Can't see anything new. Looking forward to seeing you in action mate. Cheers, Jon
Electrical things are never simple. The easy option is seldom easy - in my experience it's just swapping one complexity for another. With a static converter you lose maybe 30% power and worst case you fry your motor if it is really unbalanced. But with inverters, to remain authentic, you have to rewire all the machine buttons to the inverter control circuits. Cheers Paul
Thanks Paul, yep, still to have a go at a full inverter install on my mill, keep putting it off. Cheers, Jon
You can’t put “too much juice” into a motor. As long as the voltage is correct, there is no such thing as too much current. The motor draws as much as it needs. I run my main lathe off a 60 amp service I installed for that part of the shop. It has a 3 horse motor, and so draws much less. The problem comes when you have too little power for the motor.
Hi Mel, thanks for the comment. I am useless with electrics and frequently admit it lol, so thanks for any info and help, very much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Hi Mel, thanks for the comment. Lol, I realised during editing, totally missed that fact during filming. Cheers, Jon
And I thought this stuff just happened to me, great video, enjoyed. Cheers.
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. No no no, I am well versed in stupidity, happens to me all the time, especially when I am out of my comfort zone. Best way to learn though. Cheers, Jon
good luck updating Tony's website. his lorch pages are abysmal lol. stickers arrived today, so checking out some videos and subscribing. I'll shout you out tonight on live stream .. lets get you over 1000
Hi Emma, thanks, much appreciated. Just caught up on the live stream, I joined right at the end (work gets in the way unfortunately). By the way #TMC 2021, count me in, I'll have a bash in the 'best newcomer' category lol. Cheers, Jon
Your about as lucky as me on the bright side the grinder is in great condition . all this aggravation will be long forgotten when it’s up and running 👍👍👍👍
Hi Steve, thanks for the comment. Yep, being a glass half full man, I see a double bonus, I will wind up with a decent grinder (I hope), and I already have the motor for a new machine in the future with no need for a justification to my financial director lol. Cheers, Jon
How's it hanging Jon Dude! Already watch on xbox so know what yerv done ye muppet haha 'just jestin' Hope getting there! TFS, GB :)
Hi Graeme, thanks for the comment. Lol, muppet covers it very well. Aye, we're getting there now, my mate Percy Verence showed up and helped me out a wee bit. All to be revealed tomorrow. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon. Enjoying your videos and the rabbit hole you’ve gone into, we’ve all done that mate. Your wife must watch your channel the way you’ve convinced yourself that you’ll need that motor later and I haven’t stuffed up darling, lol 😂 I’ve been there. Just subbed, Rob sent me here from Xynudu, enjoying, now too part 3. Good luck.
Hi Philip, thanks for the comment, you are more than welcome here, I hope you find the content interesting. Oh, many a justification goes that way, I needed a milling machine because I had a slot to put in something! Lol. Cheers, Jon
Seems like a bit of a pain, but everything you’re doing will make the surface grinder better and last longer. I’m looking forward to watching the episode when you finally find out that your contactor was overheating after a couple of minutes and that was the issue all along. Great to see a time-served and experienced engineer doing these videos so that tips on “the right way” can be observed. Great videos and great channel!
Hi Dave, thanks for the comment. Yep, you were right, I am crap with electrics (but learning the hard way lol). Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, Jon
Your having some fun and games Jon. I hope it goes back together without any more hiccups. Tony
Hi Tony, thanks for the comment. Certainly am, all of my own doing as well. All good honest fun though and you get a laugh into the bargain! Cheers, Jon
Looks like you are on top of it now ! Good you stayed with 3 phase ,as i have heard a single phase in a grinder can cause surface finish issues due to single phase motors not running as smooth as 3 phase . Cheers .
Hi Max, thanks for the comment and support mate. Yes, feels like I have just about caught up with my own stupidity now lol. Yes, I have also heard this which is why I wanted to stay 3ph on this machine (not sure how real the issue is but it passes the straight face test). Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop I am going to see how my Tool & Cutter grinder goes for some light surface grinding . I want to try a VOS wheel about 46 grit / med bond if i can get one the right size .
@@swanvalleymachineshop Ha Haa, you really are the other way up to me (it's true!), I am planning on doing some tool and cutter grinding on the surface grinder lol. Cheers, Jon
Ask any mother, childbirth ain't fun. Children are!.
The VFD will be an excellent choice. Maybe just sorting the correct phase converter could have saved a lot of headache down the line also. If you intend to use the now redundant motor and switch you will need to anyway.
You keep biting the bullet, but the wrong bullet!.
Sorry you gotta be cruel to be kind. Or so I heard somewhere
Hi Fred, thanks for the comment. I sort of agree but prefer to think I am biting all the right bullets, but not necessarily in the right order!.......... and if you get that reference, you are giving your vintage away! We are making headway now. Cheers, Jon
When explaining how this was going to work out, sounded as you were talking to your wife!
" This is really going to be better" Enjoy you channel. Keep the coming.
Hi Jerry, thanks for the comment. Lol, sounds like the voice of experience talking, don't give all the secrets away. Lol
Jon,
For me the major clue is the grease fittings don't line up. This is very strange, they wouldn't fit them if they were not needed.
I think the bearings were fitted to the wrong end of the spindle when you received it. Have you checked the positioning if the bearings were swapped around?
This would explain the hard to turn spindle (no lube + wrong preload).
As I understand it the preload is set when the wheel is fitted, so the angular bearings should be at the front of the spindle, which agrees with the info from Lathes.UK.
Cheers Eric
Hi Eric, checked tonight as part of the reassembly, they are in the wrong place both ways round! I think I have got a 'transition machine' between the early series 1 (with bronze plain bearings), and the later series 1 (with ball races). My guess is they used an early casting and replaced oilers with greasers in the same holes. You will see on my next video, the bore for the bearing at the front is only deep enough for 1 bearing, and the depth is precisely matched to a spacer that supports the back of the wheel. It all looks factory which leads me to believe that's just how it came originally (can't be sure obviously but certainly gives that impression). Hopefully it will become clearer in the next video. Cheers, Jon
Such a rollercoaster ride! That's a lot of experience going towards the purchase of your next machine, for sure!
Hi Anti, thanks for the comment. Ha haaa, you are not joking! I learnt a lot on this one lol. Cheers, Jon
Oh dear Jon, I've done the same thing more than once , you will have a new machine when your finished 😬maybe you need to order a square milling bit for your keyway 😃
Hi Terry, thanks for the comment. Lol, it's in danger of turning into Triggers broom at this rate! The skis on the bottom of the new motor are courtesy of your generosity mate, they came out of that bit of 1/2" plate you gave me...... Thanks again, got me out of a hole! Cheers, Jon
Nah! What he needs now is a shaper and some keyway cutting tools....its never ending😁
@@howardosborne8647 LOL, you clearly know me very well! Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon , great site ,I have now subscribed, Thanks Mike
Hi Mike, thanks for the comment and your sub, you are most welcome here, I hope you find the content interesting and informative. Cheers, Jon
Thanks for the video Jon. Good news on the new subs. Showing mistakes, helps people learn. Keep safe and stay well.
Hi Colin, thanks for the comment. Yes, I totally agree, if I cock up I show it in the hopes someone else benefits, even if they just get a good laugh at my expense! Cheers, Jon
again : the vfd is the best idea , take out the starterbox though and wire the motor directly to the vfd
i bought my vfd's on aliexpress and havent had troubles with them , they cost me less than 50 euro
Hi Watahyahknow, keep watching lol, I get there eventually. Cheers, Jon
you are going deep down that rabbit hole of the electric motor aren't you, best of luck Jon.
Too deep David, far too deep. Unfortunately, once you commit, it's hard to come back. Making steady progress this week. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Jon
The shank of the diamond is 0.375 inch. So it’s an imperial size.
I have an Eagle Mk3 which thankfully was already fitted with a single phase motor when I got it, and it was painted in a lovely dark grey/blue colour. If you're looking for a set of spanners and sockets capable of metric and imperial have a look at Franklin wall drive gear, they will do both metric and imperial easily, good quality and good price. I am soon going to pull my grinder down to change bearings and clean everything up, so your vid has been useful, all three of them.
Hi Mickey, thanks for the comment and feedback. Just catching up with comments so apologies for the delay responding. Glad to hear you found it useful. Cheers, Jon