Here is your reminder that they put a shockland in each Eldraine Brawl deck, and they were $20. I remember Gavin Verhey saying something about double sided cards being logistically difficult to put in pre-cons, so that takes out pathways, so at the very LEAST they should have a couple kaladesh fastlands or 4x checklands
Idk why not print marker cards for the precons with the pathways marked on already. Seems kinda easy if they just put in the effort. Marker cards don’t even require new art, just formatting. I get that MDFCs made the Innistrad-style marker cards not work very well because of complexity (oh hey it’s almost like they were kind of a mistake) but pathways in particular are so simple that I don’t really see why they can’t make placeholder cards for the precons. Just include them with the tokens.
You know, our community is very fortunate that Prof puts in the work to review these products. I rely on these reviews to make decisions on whether to buy a product. Thank you Professor, for putting in the work and being such a positive force in the community.
He's the professor and he's here to say mana base is important to how a deck will play playing a tapped land never is fun and often the reason your opponents have won
As someone who plays a lot of Pokémon as well, it's astounding to me that Wizards still won't put codes for matching products in at least decks like these, if not in every booster pack. I would totally get this if it meant I could play the same deck in MTGO, it'd be a great starting point, especially since like a lot of other people, no place around me is doing Pioneer events in person, and only doing Modern, which I just don't feel like investing in more than one deck because everything is so gosh dang expensive. Ah well, maybe next time.
@@obadijahparks It would have to be MTGO, because Arena doesn’t support Pioneer. And somehow seeing how little they’ve updated it other than adding new sets and new cosmetics, I don’t see them going back and adding older sets to support less-popular formats. I’d take MTGO just to be able to actually play with the same deck.
Arena Codes dammit! Why doesn't WoTC see the value in giving a digital version with releases like this? You get the physical sale then the potential of future digital sales..... makes too much sense to me... come on...
Because that's long term value and player retention, and all corporations like Hasbro care about are profit margins and short term gains (as can also be seen by them flooding the market with product to ensure there is always an increase in annual revenue). They couldn't wrap their heads around giving something away.
I genuinely don't play Arena nor do I buy physical product because I don't want to deal with 2 different card economies that don't interact with each other at all when I want to play both clients. I would buy sealed product and actually play Arena if I could just get rewarded for buying sealed
There are several cards in these Pioneer decks which are not available on Arena. Pioneer is also not currently supported on Arena. But yes, it would be nice if the Standard challenger decks came with Arena codes. Currently only starter/planeswalker decks come with Arena codes for the deck and Pre-Release Bundles come with a code for 6 packs.
WotC making Brawl decks: “you can have a shockland, foil legendary, brand new mana rock, and a Smothering Tithe. How’s $20 sound?” WotC making Pioneer decks: best I can do is taplands and strange card choices
Good evening, Proffesor. Just came back from local mini tounament (I am from Ukraine). We had a Pioneer showdow there so the topic of this deck occured and our local players have simmilar thoughts on those decks as do you. I am playing somewhat unusual deck of RUG adventures (Eldrain still hunting me )) ) with twicks of my own and the results I am getting from it are decent. Personaly I like Lotus field combo deck and even consider purchasing it for the next game we will have (with, of course, making small upgrades to it). Here at Lutsk we have playgroup of 4 for Commander gameplay and decent arrange from mid to high power deck that we enjoy playing and playing against. We all enjoy your content, though are not much of a "comment under each video" types so thank you for all the thing you are doing for Magic community and all the video content you make.
My LGS jumped onto Pioneer soon after it was announced, since the appetite for Standard wasn't great at the time. The pandemic put a dent in events, but they're back with weekly Pioneer events since this summer. These decks seem like a great way to get into the format, but surely they could've thrown in some shocklands for the price! Paid $45 apiece (before tax), since distributors are apparently marking these way up.
An important thing to remember about pioneer… It’s the only eternal format that isn’t having cards specifically designed for it. The format is actually pretty good right now, and is at a very appropriate power level. Helps not having a soft rotation.
Oh nice, commander legends was great personally, even lotus isn’t that busted, and a nice piece for mono and 2 colour. After the HB ban I’d say it was pretty good overall. It diiiid change things a decent amount though, and MH and MH2 were crazy good. That’s actually a nice point in its favour
I was late to draft night this Friday at my LGS, and saw these decks. They were being sold for $40 and included entry to that nights pioneer tournament. Was a small and casual event, I didn't win a single match, but I still had an absolute blast with the Lotus Field deck (I'm terrible at combo and had never heard of, or seen, this combo deck played before attempting myself so please forgive terrible record). I'm definitely gonna make a few upgrades and continue with it at some pioneer events when they come up
Aside from WotC continuing their "flawless" record of decision making, I love Pioneer, and I have since it's inception. I imagine this is similar to what it felt like when modern was getting started, and I really hope it takes off in paper.
I remember when the challenger decks came out there was a LGS that was selling a hazoret aggro deck for $80. It was a little bit infuriating. Pushed me straight into the second sun control deck that was going for $35 at the same store and made me realize that I was a control player the whole time. I’m still a little pissed that the store would do something like that but I’m glad that it turned me on to the control play style.
The Prof always drops lines like check your LGS for old products (just rotated our or the last commander decks) The literal second the new product comes out the price at least doubles. lol you can go to one down the road for me and buy the Equip and auras d&d deck for 65 bucks.
I can tell you that as a former retail manager when dealing with profit, it's not so much about the raw profit value as it is the percentage. In the case of the new decks at that cost, pricing should be around $50.
Was gonna say, just taking the same 40% profit from Standard decks and then using that value, of 12, not the percentage of 40, is probably wrong. Most stores operate on margin percentages, not absolute values.
I just want to say, I only started getting into magic about a month ago and THIS CHANNEL HAS BEEN INVALUABLE in helping me make decisions and understand the game, especially as someone who is transitioning from playing Yugi-oh heaviliy in the late 2000's. Thank you Professor for looking out for us as consumers and also for making your content so embracing.
Thank you for the review! This might actually get me to play a format other than commander. I had trouble getting into modern simply because access to older cards could be difficult, but having played through just about every set that pioneer has, my card selection is much better. Thanks prof!
I LOVE Pioneer, and I'm glad attention is being brought to the format. I've been one of the only people at my LGS that plays Pioneer, and these decks have definitely increased interest amongst my playgroup. I believe your review of the product is very fair, and it has brought to my attention that the price we currently have them listed at is probably too high. Keep up the great work!
Its always a joy. To watch a video from Prof. It feels like taking a class in a college. From economics (value of cards, decks, sleeves), to Social Studies (returning events, commander etc), to history and much much more. Thank you Prof for your time and energy to these videos.
I started playing Magic during Dark Ascension and was very excited when pioneer was announced since I already had a good collection of cards for the format. I currently own Lurrus Burn, Lotus Field Combo, and a couple brews of my own. Pre-ordered a Challenger deck a few weeks ago to build another deck. I'm hoping to play them at an FNM in the near future.
This is the most recent video you've posted. I have just completed watching the last 4 videos. The entertainment quality of my commander day prep is excellent. Thanks for great videos and keep up the amazing work. Now for a few quick deck revisions and on to a few hours of commander.
I was tracking the prices of these on Amazon over the last two months, curious how that marketplace priced them. I saw the decks go from $40.00 to $61.00 and up to $75.00 until dropping to $42.00 the day of release.
Great video! I play pioneer regularly and have helped cultivate a scene at my local LGS (usually 6-8 players each FNM with a diverse meta). I do agree that these decks could have been so much better but I do think they offer a decent starting off point. I bought the spirits deck and went 2-1 out of the box. Got a few upgrades and am feeling confident for next week!
Started watching you last year with serious interest. More than working at a local game store, you gave me the interest and passion not just to play Magic, but buy Magic affordably. Thank you, Prof!
Yep. At this point this is why its actually better to get this over boosters of any kind. At least you get a fixed list no gambling involved. And they are still to expensive.
@@trowawayacc compared to what? Commander decks are the same price and cheaper deck lists. All these decks are based on actual tier 1 decks (except auras, that’s more their 3 now) and you get some insane cards that you can use in other formats if you end up not liking pioneer. They’re $45 at my LGS, or $140 for all 4 on Amazon. For the price of a land base for a modern deck or a commander deck, I can get all 4 decks, sleeves, boulders and a quiver for casual 1v1 after a night of commander, or for teaching someone new to the game, and I can easily throw 30 bucks in upgrades at almost any of them to have a decent time at any tournament style event.
I can't ever remember where legality starts for Pioneer so I've not gotten into it. 8th Edition served as a really good benchmark for Modern since it coincided with the updated card frame, and made it stick in my mind... But Pioneer doesn't have a similar easy to remember breakpoint (for me, at least). So I might have liked to pick a couple of these up to get a feel for the format, but at that price that's a huge ask for a relatively small time format like this one.
Picked up the Lotus Combo deck earlier today. On the handout it says all standard sets from Return to Ravnica (October 2012) to present. As a Modern/EDH player almost exclusively I'm right there with you. Several friends from my regular playgroup have spoken very highly of Pioneer as a format. It's certainly not the most prevalent at our LGS but with paper Standard being killed off entirely by Arena (in my area at least) I think there's room for it. Only time will tell now that people are showing up at FNM farily regularly again. Absolutely agree on the price point of these! I was really hoping they'd be no more than about forty bucks in store. Fifty-five is painful even with the included value. Wouldn't be surprised to see this product warming the shelves for a bit.
@Daniel Stovell iirc it has to do with RTR was the first standard set that revamped how they handled printing of Standard Legal sets after Innistrad block sold well while also causing logistical problems due to Double Faced cards
Damn, I wanted azorius spirits to be great, I want to play this archetype so much 😭 I played pioneer with monoU tempo when it first came out, and now that I know best which tempo deck is better in te format I’d be so into spirits
Check out the azorius kaldheim commander it's pretty nifty and plays well out of the box it does get a bit solitaire at times but for phasing and spirits and annoying your friends it's well worth it (and you can always sub things to make it pioneer)
Pandemic times really hit this format hard. The format was announced in late October of 2019, just shy of two years ago from now (and sadly just a few mere months before everything was locked down). The phrase “a rough few years” really says a lot, for both about Pioneer and the pandemic lol
The part on inserting a code to play the pioneer decks even online can be applied also to commander precons. They would gain so much from the digital side,it just seems they don't really care .
@@raymondgreen9379 i mean a lot of effort for sure,but it's a whole new business where the income would not come from cards but from other stuff. Quarantine didn't teach them anything. I would have paid a lot to have a working videogame with a good looking UI to play commander with my friends and with my decks.
Im probably gonna pick up the lotus field combo just for the set of lotus fields, the omniscience, and the approach of the second sun. the lotus fields were stopping me from going to into jeskai control in modern with the blood sun package, and the omniscience and approach can easily slot into a little casual azorius edh deck ive been brewing for pods
Thank you so much professor! I wanted a pioneer deck for the "gp" in LA and saw the new video you made. I'm very excited to try out the lotus field/auras deck!
Thanks for the video. I had high hopes when these were originally announced, because I’m interested in having a base for a mono-red Pioneer and Modern deck, but at a $45-50 price point I’m seeing online, it feels like it would be better to just buy singles. I do factor in the convenience of just getting a complete deck right away and upgrading it later. If I come across one for $39.99 I’ll probably get it.
With the mono-red (notice EVERY Challenger Series has had Mono-red?) you've already purchased most of the cards in it if you've gotten the previous challenger decks. The Monastery Swiftspears are the only "new" Challenger card as the Soul-Scar was a 3 of in the first set which also had Chandra and the Couriers. 2019 gave us all the burn and the wizards plus whirler while 2020 gave use the Giant and Stage. Depending on if you've gotten the previous decks there's not much to the Red Burn deck.
I visited three LGS's to find Challenger Decks a week or so ago, and the selection was very limited. I'm glad to have your videos to sort them and their relative values, so I can know which are the best, have the best mana-bases, and which years did Wizards decide to screw the Consumers/players, and which years they actually put some heart into the damn cards. Thank you, as always Prof, for your efforts to review product and voice a dissenting view on the ever-increasing price of luxury cardboard rectangles.
Still unsure on this one. My lgs is starting up ioneer events and I could grab one of these, or brew budget energy or ensoul for the same cost, which I think I would have more fun playing
Love the videos. Keep up the good work I have a group of friends and sometimes when we play magic I bring out the last set of challenge deals and we just pick one makes a fun night
no shocklands is abysmal. with the recent secret lair printing they've basically said they're only worth at most $8 a piece. for a $50 per con i'd expect at least 2
Considering Secret Lairs are usually foil, nah. They're only so low since Wizards doesn't has to split profits with LGS. Otherwise the cheapest SL would've been 100 bucks from the get go if they worked with LGS rather than order from Wizards themselves. What's Wizards is doing here is.morr dishonest than Konami intentionally gutting 10 dollar structure decks for non JP markets way back when
I love Pioneer! I was super excited when it first was announced, and it was one of the only formats I've ever played with any consistency at a game store. I play prereleases but never played much else in person, so I was glad to play weekly at my LGS. I'm afraid covid killed it. I haven't played at all post Inverter ban. I wish they would just get it on Arena already then maybe I'd play Arena
I loved Pioneer when it came out, its what kept me going in Magic when I was getting very tired of it. It gave me a fun way to build competitively without relying too heavily on the mana base, as well as revisit standard decks of old that could enjoy some of the newer tech! I intend on picking up the Auras and Lotus Field decks to keep together, but I'm probably going to keep using my own brews for Pioneer nights, should they return to my LGS.
I like pioneer when you get to play against someone who is playing a weird tier 2 deck of cards you haven't seen in ages. I always queue into sweaty tier 1 cookie cutter decks. Pioneer also never fires in my area since all the bans and the apocalypse.
@@AndreJHoward ive been running something similar r/g brew of my own with waking the trolls stone rain, 8 other land destruction cards and mana ramp xD and the explore card that lets you add addditional land cards and draw 7 for a turn and threat and the haste/riot wyrm. fun deck if you get the right hand you can burn lands turn 2/3 consistently and for those running hard mana bases lulullululul the only problem are mono aggro decks or dual aggro decks with good land base. otherwise its fun to smash their lands.
Pioneer is the FNM format of choice at my LGS so I grabbed and upgraded the Lotus Field deck to give the format a try. For me, $45 for a pretty good version of the deck was a good value. I upgraded the mana base and swapped out another dozen or so cards to up the competitiveness. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the valuable and informative product review!
So am I the only one who remembers the basic formats (standard, modern, legacy, and commander) and not much else? How many different formats do we even have at this point?
I have played paper Pioneer at my local game store pre-Covid, and it's quite fun and unique. If we are able to start up regular tournaments again for it, I full intend to play Pioneer again. It's a worthy format.
I love pioneer because most deck brews have some chance of being competitive, even jank. I get disappointed that many MTG players still claim modern is the king non-rotating format and just dismiss Pioneer. I just do not have a good time when games get decided on turns 3-4 because I don't have access to the latest $200 playsets of one drops or have expensive mana bases to keep my decks competitive.
Hey Professor, heart you! I’m a retail manager and wanted to explain a bit about your math about margin. Game stores will want to charge a consistent margin if at all possible for each catagory of product they sell. Booster boxes, sealed precons and singles all have unique margins. Margin affects prices proportionally based off the size of the investment. So if a game store invests $30 in product as opposed to $18 as in this scenario, it would want to make more than $12 back to cover the higher investment and risk. Just want to call this out, translating a $X dollar profit from a lower cost cannot translate into the same $X profit from a higher cost, at least in the retail world. Amazon operates differently, they operate when selling directly as Amazon by selling products just above cost. The problem with this is you loose more money on every bit of unsold product, and while Amazon is big enough to support type of loss, most retail establishments such as games stores can’t.
What percentage of your viewers are from Europe? When you do monetary analysis, could you start looking at the European market too? Most people here use Cardmarket trend prices for singles pricing. And the product price should be fairly easy to figure out too =)
My LGS is having a hard enough time restarting Standard events (Modern, Commander, and Limited are the most active formats at the store). They’re not even attempting to start Pioneer up.
I love the idea of pioneer as a returning player from 2016, and I can use the same cards I used to play with. I know the same reason applies to modern, I guess I’m just biased toward pioneer because Ravinica draws the line right before I started playing.
I love Pioneer and have been playing at my LGS for like 2 years now, (safely as we can). I play a hammer time variant and love when I see content creators mention the format. I hope the format can stick around for when paper play and make a comeback.
To echo at least one other comment on here, retail prices are based on percentages (usually) so upping the base cost to the store is going to have a bigger effect on the retail price. They have to do it that way because otherwise there is little to no incentive for the store to sell more expensive items. The store had to risk an additional $100 to stock their shelves with these decks over the standard challenger decks, they have to make more money back to make up for that risk, and any decks that don't sell. I was sad when I got into retail (only a sideline at my work) and realized how much we all pay in markup as customers, but that's what pays for the local game store (and even Amazon to a point) to keep going and be worth owning/investing in. It also pays staff and keeps the lights on! Might be a cool video for you to go "behind the scenes" at a local game store and see how they work from a business perspective! Thanks for all you do! :)
I will say this, my LGS is opening up for in person play again and the majority of people on their website say "Pioneer" as the one format they're interested in. I see some Modern and Commander and Legacy and Cube here and there, but the overwhelming majority say Pioneer.
I run a cat deck too! While a little too slow vs combo/control, its incredibly strong against other creature based decks (which are very popular right now)
I pretty much said the same thing yesterday about Spirits. Take out the temples and put in shock lands. Temples and check lands together make for a slow start. Also, replace the Brazen Borrower with a Selfless Spirit and it's pretty much good to go.
it's nice to see Magic releasing products for people to get into other formats easily, especially with how much Modern is to play, Pioneer is a great intro into other constructed formats outside of Standard.
I absolutely love Pioneer. I started playing Pioneer when it was announced, and since I had come back to Magic during the first Theros block, it was a perfect fit for me. I have seven Pioneer decks today, and they are great decks that I can let people use for pick up games as well.
I actually built 2 Pioneer decks prior to the pandemic. The first was Orzhov Angels, with Divine Visitation, Bishop of Wings, and Resplendent Angel as the main pieces. It wasn't perfect, but it did win a few matches when I played with the deck in some Pioneer events. Kaldheim and Midnight Hunt have more good Angels to add to that list if I choose to update it. The second deck is a Boros "Reflection" deck, which is likely my preferred deck of the two, though the pandemic had started right after I built it, and I only got to use it a couple times anyhow. It revolves around cards that deal damage to an opponent based on the damage they were dealt themselves, and it is possible to win as early as turn 4 with it. The key cards in that build are Brash Taunter, Stormwild Capridor, Irencrag Feat, and Star of Extinction, with a few other good pieces. Once Pioneer opens back up at my local game store, I can't wait to use it there.
Greta video! I love Pioneer and have been playing it since it’s inception. Thank you for letting me know about the awesome guys of Crew 3 podcast. They have kept me informed about my favorite format since the beginning. I don’t plan to buy these decks as I have all the cards from them that I want already, but I’m glad Wizards put them out. Pioneer is super fun and I will continue to play it as my constructed format of choice!
Who tries to win fairly with Combo? The point of Combo is to win through degeneracy.... Nuggets like this is the reason why I love this channel. Thank you, Prof
Honestly I'm sad that they screwed the mana bases of these decks in this way, but I'm still planning on picking them up, in part because pioneer does look fun! Also being able to just pick up the deck and play it out of the box seems like a nice way of learning the format and how it plays, and even if these are more expensive, it's a nice way of learning what decks you do and don't enjoy! The WB Auras and Lotus Field Combo appeal to me personally, and honestly do look really fun! I'd love to try pioneer with the lotus deck, in part because it sounds like a fun challenge!!
Pioneer is easily my favourite nonrotating format, and I think the main reason I find it so enjoyable and full of deck building possibilities is because unlike the others Wizards hasn't yet meddled with it. When Modern was first announced my friends and I, who at that time mostly played kitchen table Magic using cards we had acquired from standard expansions, recognized it as essentially the format we were already playing. The Modern Horizons sets destroyed that paradigm, by injecting cards into the format, a dozen or so of which are so powerful it's become almost impossible to brew or tweak a competitive deck without using them. Pioneer is still basically Standard Plus, where many old standard decks are still viable with a few upgrades, alongside new archetypes exclusive to the format. In particular it's a format not yet dominated by combos, where fair decks of different hues still thrive.
Recently got back into paper MTG in a big way because of pioneer. Cheaper less broken decks than modern which I could never afford to play (apart from a budget soul sisters deck). I play a lot of orzhov decks so was thinking of picking up auras and some godless shrines to use in several decks. Even planning on running some casual pioneer games in my brewery this winter. If WOTC gave more support to this format and tweaked pricing and mana bases on these challenger decks I think a lot more people would be getting into the format! Would LOVE to see digital codes too! Especially after losing my arena library from the closed beta :-( cheers for the awesome vids prof
I know this is off topic, but you're looking good Prof - hope you're doing well in these wild times. Thank you for another entertaining and educational video. :3
I've been playing pioneer lots over the past couple months. It has been fun and great. Were hoping these decks help more people get into the format in our area and at our local lgs
Really glad to see the hard numbers on this product, while the value is there it's hard to disagree about the sabatoge of not including shocks or at least one copy for each deck. Most magic players that are new to competetive dont understand the consistency that a proper land base provides and the price puts them off from upgrading them first. I think an upgrade guide along with including a shock (to help show how powerful they are to new players) would make these decks a much better product.
Very useful feedback, i just bought the Azorius spirits deck. I'll be looking into more mana options ASAP. 👊 👊 Plus some other interesting cards I've seen on your channel and Game Knights.
Hi Prof. Always a fan of the content, so I apologise for how long this comment is going to be. When they first announced Pioneer, I was deep into Modern. So I shrugged it off. In the years that followed since, I moved out of Modern (and Magic as a whole) and focused more on other card games. In the last few weeks, I've been back into Magic and through MTGA, Historic was my format of choice. When they announced these Challenger decks, I had already sold out of most of my Modern collection. After doing a very small bit of initial research into what Pioneer was and why I should be interested in it, I felt that these Challenger decks was the perfect entry point into the format (plus, I live for obtuse combo decks). A friend of mine who also recently picked up Magic was interested in Pioneer, as he had a semi-sizable collection from starting Modern, but didn't want to make the investment jump into finishing his set of fetches and other staples (such as Force of Negation). We both agreed that Pioneer would be a cheaper, easier way to play "Modern" and committed to buying one each. So at the very least, I have two cases that showed that these decks were effective at their goal. How much more Pioneer we play going forward remains to be seen due to support from our local area, but at the very least, it piqued my interest. In the time since the decklists for these decks were revealed to the actual release, I engorged myself on Pioneer content, especially about the Lotus Field combo I was about to pick up. I looked up decklists, watched content, even goldfished games on Tabletop Simulator. I was basically ready to commit to Pioneer. While I commend your thoroughness in analysis, especially when it comes to finances, criticism of WotC's lack of MSRP, and a few other printing choices in these decks, I feel that your lack of familiarity of Pioneer compared to say, Pauper or Modern, really shines through. Allow me to take the Lotus Field deck as the example I have become most well-versed in. The choice to not add a Blast Zone is indeed one I find strange. However, your criticisms of Temple of Mystery are completely unfounded. The card is the ideal target for a turn 1 Arboreal Grazer, and is an excellent play on turn 5-6 while you are digging for Peer Through Depths or some other piece of gas. Meanwhile, Breeding Pool sees virtually no play in the deck, because you have zero care for basic land types, meaning the less average life loss for Yavimaya Coast is actually preferable. As it stands, beyond Blast Zone, the major manabase upgrades people would be looking for for Lotus Field Combo would be Barkchannel Pathway and Botanical Sanctum - while I completely agree these would have been significantly better than the 10 basics we got in the deck, I do not think the problem is as deep as you are suggesting. The most valid complaint you gave was the lack of the Emergent Ultimatum Package, which in reality is: 1-2 Baral, 2-3 Ultimatum, and a second Omniscience. I don't consider that a huge loss. In all honesty, the biggest failure of the deck is including 4 Opt instead of 4 Bala Ged Recovery - both pennies worth of cards, but one is false consistency chaff, whereas the other is critical into the combo's resilience. Orzhov Auras on the other hand, has indeed fallen off, and I think it would have been more pertinent to mention that these decks were designed/drafted several months ago - during which time, both Auras and Lotus Field were more prevalent in the metagame. I can't speak much on Burn because my knowledge of that deck is limited. In the case of Spirits, I think the line of Collected Company is something that most Spirits players will be aware of anyway and that alone would be enough reason to encourage and upgrading of the manabase. I agree that no Hallowed Fountain and no Pathways make it harder for people to know exactly what they should be upgrading, and that they could have done better than 4 Temple of Enlightenment, but as you say - Spirits is one of the best Pioneer decks right now. Compared with how low of a metagame proportion the other three decks take, presumably because of their poor placement in the meta, I think from the perspective of "play these decks against each other out of the box", having one be heads and shoulders above the others may have been something they were actively trying to avoid. I can't imagine it's healthy for the format if everyone rocks up to FNM, buys the Spirits deck, sleeves it up, and now you have to play against Spirits for 3 rounds because it's just such a value acquisition. Years of mismatched Commander Deck quality can attest to this. On the whole, I largely agree with your assessment - these decks are indeed good value, but they are lacking that spark that makes them snap purchases. I am only a very specific type of customer - one who was already somewhat interested in Pioneer because I didn't want to invest 50% of the deck's value into fetchlands that I didn't already own. However, I still feel like your judgement was a bit too harsh because your point-of-view has been eschewed by the value of reprints and the concessions they made to card quality in the decks. Sideboard aside, Opt is basically the only card in Lotus Field that I have not seen any lists playing - the decision of Shimmer of Possibility versus Strategic Planning is a totally viable debate, as is the number of Dig Through Time to play. While we would all love to spend $50 for a product that contains $200 of value to the point where the only other thing you'd need to buy to win a large event is sleeves, I think we can throw Wizards a bone here and say that they also have an interest in us buying other product, and as do game stores for selling us singles such as $20 for a playset of Pathways or $40 for a playset of shocks. And so by that logic, I think these decks are an incredible compromise and should be highly recommended for anyone looking to get into Pioneer, with the caveat that these are not perfect nor complete products. In the end, I don't deny that these decks could have been better and should have been better. However, I still believe we should recognise that Wizards could have supported the Pioneer format in ways that cost them less and benefitted the playerbase less, and so these decks, how they were executed, and what they achieve should still be commended. I still enjoyed your video, but I just felt like there was an underlying feeling of upset that your own lofty expectations being let down, instead of being excited that Pioneer could finally be a reasonable middle-ground between Modern and Pauper and suggesting all the budget improvements people could make to these decks.
Here is your reminder that they put a shockland in each Eldraine Brawl deck, and they were $20.
I remember Gavin Verhey saying something about double sided cards being logistically difficult to put in pre-cons, so that takes out pathways, so at the very LEAST they should have a couple kaladesh fastlands or 4x checklands
I can understand the lack of shocklands since they were just released in secret lairs
They had some fast lands in the auras deck. But yeah, they need much better manabases.
@@animesfreakify I honestly can't refer to a secret lair as a "worthy" reprint. I wouldn't count them.
Idk why not print marker cards for the precons with the pathways marked on already. Seems kinda easy if they just put in the effort. Marker cards don’t even require new art, just formatting. I get that MDFCs made the Innistrad-style marker cards not work very well because of complexity (oh hey it’s almost like they were kind of a mistake) but pathways in particular are so simple that I don’t really see why they can’t make placeholder cards for the precons. Just include them with the tokens.
@@Jakerunio what’s a marker card?
You know, our community is very fortunate that Prof puts in the work to review these products. I rely on these reviews to make decisions on whether to buy a product. Thank you Professor, for putting in the work and being such a positive force in the community.
Yeah, I’m happy he’s gonna be in Vegas for the channel fireball event. My son is excited to meet him.
I never buy a mtv product without watching the professors review first
Prof da man
I could not agree more! Thank you, Prof! 💕 We’d be lost without you.
100%
He's the professor and he's here to say
mana base is important to how a deck will play
playing a tapped land never is fun
and often the reason your opponents have won
Go mana go mana go.
A+ comment
Word to your mother.
As someone who plays a lot of Pokémon as well, it's astounding to me that Wizards still won't put codes for matching products in at least decks like these, if not in every booster pack. I would totally get this if it meant I could play the same deck in MTGO, it'd be a great starting point, especially since like a lot of other people, no place around me is doing Pioneer events in person, and only doing Modern, which I just don't feel like investing in more than one deck because everything is so gosh dang expensive. Ah well, maybe next time.
It would be arena, and agreed.
@@obadijahparks It would have to be MTGO, because Arena doesn’t support Pioneer. And somehow seeing how little they’ve updated it other than adding new sets and new cosmetics, I don’t see them going back and adding older sets to support less-popular formats. I’d take MTGO just to be able to actually play with the same deck.
At least you get modern mine stopped modern for pioneer... so happyyyyyy 😒
@@obadijahparks MTGO is literally "Magic the Gathering Online." MTG Arena is just a money grab video game.
Chaotic was doing that since day 1. RIP
Arena Codes dammit! Why doesn't WoTC see the value in giving a digital version with releases like this? You get the physical sale then the potential of future digital sales..... makes too much sense to me... come on...
i dont get it either - whenever you look at pokemon boosters they get codes. why the fuck does magic not get them?
Because that's long term value and player retention, and all corporations like Hasbro care about are profit margins and short term gains (as can also be seen by them flooding the market with product to ensure there is always an increase in annual revenue). They couldn't wrap their heads around giving something away.
Maybe because there is no Pioneer in Arena?
I genuinely don't play Arena nor do I buy physical product because I don't want to deal with 2 different card economies that don't interact with each other at all when I want to play both clients. I would buy sealed product and actually play Arena if I could just get rewarded for buying sealed
There are several cards in these Pioneer decks which are not available on Arena. Pioneer is also not currently supported on Arena. But yes, it would be nice if the Standard challenger decks came with Arena codes. Currently only starter/planeswalker decks come with Arena codes for the deck and Pre-Release Bundles come with a code for 6 packs.
WotC making Brawl decks: “you can have a shockland, foil legendary, brand new mana rock, and a Smothering Tithe. How’s $20 sound?”
WotC making Pioneer decks: best I can do is taplands and strange card choices
I don’t think smothering tithe was as pricey back then but you’re still right lol.
@@jamesgratz4771 it was $20 when the brawl decks came out, it was $15 when the guild kits came out
@@johnmoussiaux7669 well because it’s so good in cOmMaNdEr
WotC with commander precons: 1 tap land take it or leave it
Remember when the Brawl decks had a shock land in them? That was neat.
Even Smothering Tithe
That tells you how badly they really wanted to push Brawl.
Remember when shocklands were only 5 bucks, that was neat
Remember when magic was still fun? Cause I do. I'm quitting this game soon it's such bs
And tithe, those were good value
Good evening, Proffesor. Just came back from local mini tounament (I am from Ukraine). We had a Pioneer showdow there so the topic of this deck occured and our local players have simmilar thoughts on those decks as do you. I am playing somewhat unusual deck of RUG adventures (Eldrain still hunting me )) ) with twicks of my own and the results I am getting from it are decent. Personaly I like Lotus field combo deck and even consider purchasing it for the next game we will have (with, of course, making small upgrades to it). Here at Lutsk we have playgroup of 4 for Commander gameplay and decent arrange from mid to high power deck that we enjoy playing and playing against. We all enjoy your content, though are not much of a "comment under each video" types so thank you for all the thing you are doing for Magic community and all the video content you make.
My LGS jumped onto Pioneer soon after it was announced, since the appetite for Standard wasn't great at the time. The pandemic put a dent in events, but they're back with weekly Pioneer events since this summer. These decks seem like a great way to get into the format, but surely they could've thrown in some shocklands for the price! Paid $45 apiece (before tax), since distributors are apparently marking these way up.
An important thing to remember about pioneer… It’s the only eternal format that isn’t having cards specifically designed for it. The format is actually pretty good right now, and is at a very appropriate power level. Helps not having a soft rotation.
Oh nice, commander legends was great personally, even lotus isn’t that busted, and a nice piece for mono and 2 colour. After the HB ban I’d say it was pretty good overall. It diiiid change things a decent amount though, and MH and MH2 were crazy good. That’s actually a nice point in its favour
Shhhhh. Keep it down. WotC might hear and ruin the format.
pioneer isnt eternal.....
@@sebb4269 eternal has become synonym to non-rotating. Just accept it.
Yet. Give them time.
Please continue to do Pioneer content. It's such a fun an accessible format, and it really is a shame that it isn't seeing much, if any, support.
I was late to draft night this Friday at my LGS, and saw these decks. They were being sold for $40 and included entry to that nights pioneer tournament. Was a small and casual event, I didn't win a single match, but I still had an absolute blast with the Lotus Field deck (I'm terrible at combo and had never heard of, or seen, this combo deck played before attempting myself so please forgive terrible record). I'm definitely gonna make a few upgrades and continue with it at some pioneer events when they come up
Aside from WotC continuing their "flawless" record of decision making, I love Pioneer, and I have since it's inception. I imagine this is similar to what it felt like when modern was getting started, and I really hope it takes off in paper.
I remember when the challenger decks came out there was a LGS that was selling a hazoret aggro deck for $80. It was a little bit infuriating. Pushed me straight into the second sun control deck that was going for $35 at the same store and made me realize that I was a control player the whole time. I’m still a little pissed that the store would do something like that but I’m glad that it turned me on to the control play style.
The Prof always drops lines like check your LGS for old products (just rotated our or the last commander decks) The literal second the new product comes out the price at least doubles. lol you can go to one down the road for me and buy the Equip and auras d&d deck for 65 bucks.
That meta was so annoying, I played gruul dinos during that meta and all I played against was mono red and second sun lol
I can tell you that as a former retail manager when dealing with profit, it's not so much about the raw profit value as it is the percentage. In the case of the new decks at that cost, pricing should be around $50.
Was gonna say, just taking the same 40% profit from Standard decks and then using that value, of 12, not the percentage of 40, is probably wrong. Most stores operate on margin percentages, not absolute values.
Been waiting for this - love all your content Prof - keep being awesome!
Glad you enjoy it!
I just want to say, I only started getting into magic about a month ago and THIS CHANNEL HAS BEEN INVALUABLE in helping me make decisions and understand the game, especially as someone who is transitioning from playing Yugi-oh heaviliy in the late 2000's. Thank you Professor for looking out for us as consumers and also for making your content so embracing.
Thank you for the review! This might actually get me to play a format other than commander. I had trouble getting into modern simply because access to older cards could be difficult, but having played through just about every set that pioneer has, my card selection is much better. Thanks prof!
"The point of combo is to win through degeneracy," Nearly choked on my drink, thanks Prof. XD
Curious about the new GP Vegas? The Gathering Returns To Magic: th-cam.com/video/sPVWNRZu_Y4/w-d-xo.html
Pioneer is hot at our LGS’s, it’s fun. I take all my cards I drafted through the years and build decks.
Pioneer is just getting going at my LGS. More Pioneer content please. Thank you.
I LOVE Pioneer, and I'm glad attention is being brought to the format. I've been one of the only people at my LGS that plays Pioneer, and these decks have definitely increased interest amongst my playgroup. I believe your review of the product is very fair, and it has brought to my attention that the price we currently have them listed at is probably too high. Keep up the great work!
Its always a joy. To watch a video from Prof. It feels like taking a class in a college. From economics (value of cards, decks, sleeves), to Social Studies (returning events, commander etc), to history and much much more. Thank you Prof for your time and energy to these videos.
I was waiting all day for this! Great Video!
Yay! Thank you!
I started playing Magic during Dark Ascension and was very excited when pioneer was announced since I already had a good collection of cards for the format. I currently own Lurrus Burn, Lotus Field Combo, and a couple brews of my own. Pre-ordered a Challenger deck a few weeks ago to build another deck. I'm hoping to play them at an FNM in the near future.
Just clicked, hoping UW spirits is good. Might give it a try.
Edit: oh :(
The spirts deck can easily be a B with about $20 in upgrades by adding the pathways and some Deserted Beaches
The spirts deck can easily be a B with about $20 in upgrades by adding the pathways and some Deserted Beaches
The spirts deck can easily be a B with about $20 in upgrades by adding the pathways and some Deserted Beaches
The spirts deck can easily be a B with about $20 in upgrades by adding the pathways and some Deserted Beaches
The spirts deck can easily be a B with about $20 in upgrades by adding the pathways and some Deserted Beaches
This is the most recent video you've posted. I have just completed watching the last 4 videos. The entertainment quality of my commander day prep is excellent. Thanks for great videos and keep up the amazing work. Now for a few quick deck revisions and on to a few hours of commander.
I was tracking the prices of these on Amazon over the last two months, curious how that marketplace priced them. I saw the decks go from $40.00 to $61.00 and up to $75.00 until dropping to $42.00 the day of release.
damn, thats nasty
Can't wait. I've been interested in new formats to play recently. Thank you Prof!
Yes, Pioneer! I'm getting a chance to play it for FNM on Friday!
Great video! I play pioneer regularly and have helped cultivate a scene at my local LGS (usually 6-8 players each FNM with a diverse meta). I do agree that these decks could have been so much better but I do think they offer a decent starting off point.
I bought the spirits deck and went 2-1 out of the box. Got a few upgrades and am feeling confident for next week!
"And Orzhov auras at $69, nice" the Profs got taste
Nice
My thumbs up is this comment.
@@narkfly by perchance, is that because you wish to keep the likes at a certain number...?
dammit, I wanted to like but you're at 69. nice
@@isaacpulido9586 past that now. Gimme my like then😈
Started watching you last year with serious interest. More than working at a local game store, you gave me the interest and passion not just to play Magic, but buy Magic affordably. Thank you, Prof!
The price tag alone is stopping my friends from diving in. Thankfully I’ve been able to give them budget lists
Yep. At this point this is why its actually better to get this over boosters of any kind. At least you get a fixed list no gambling involved. And they are still to expensive.
@@trowawayacc compared to what? Commander decks are the same price and cheaper deck lists. All these decks are based on actual tier 1 decks (except auras, that’s more their 3 now) and you get some insane cards that you can use in other formats if you end up not liking pioneer. They’re $45 at my LGS, or $140 for all 4 on Amazon. For the price of a land base for a modern deck or a commander deck, I can get all 4 decks, sleeves, boulders and a quiver for casual 1v1 after a night of commander, or for teaching someone new to the game, and I can easily throw 30 bucks in upgrades at almost any of them to have a decent time at any tournament style event.
Your new hair style looks great!
I can't ever remember where legality starts for Pioneer so I've not gotten into it. 8th Edition served as a really good benchmark for Modern since it coincided with the updated card frame, and made it stick in my mind...
But Pioneer doesn't have a similar easy to remember breakpoint (for me, at least).
So I might have liked to pick a couple of these up to get a feel for the format, but at that price that's a huge ask for a relatively small time format like this one.
Picked up the Lotus Combo deck earlier today. On the handout it says all standard sets from Return to Ravnica (October 2012) to present. As a Modern/EDH player almost exclusively I'm right there with you. Several friends from my regular playgroup have spoken very highly of Pioneer as a format. It's certainly not the most prevalent at our LGS but with paper Standard being killed off entirely by Arena (in my area at least) I think there's room for it. Only time will tell now that people are showing up at FNM farily regularly again. Absolutely agree on the price point of these! I was really hoping they'd be no more than about forty bucks in store. Fifty-five is painful even with the included value. Wouldn't be surprised to see this product warming the shelves for a bit.
I'd like to see pioneer take off a bit, but in my city it's dead, just like anything which isn't commander right now
@Daniel Stovell iirc it has to do with RTR was the first standard set that revamped how they handled printing of Standard Legal sets after Innistrad block sold well while also causing logistical problems due to Double Faced cards
Always waiting for your reviews about the products. Thx prof
Damn, I wanted azorius spirits to be great, I want to play this archetype so much 😭 I played pioneer with monoU tempo when it first came out, and now that I know best which tempo deck is better in te format I’d be so into spirits
Check out the azorius kaldheim commander it's pretty nifty and plays well out of the box it does get a bit solitaire at times but for phasing and spirits and annoying your friends it's well worth it (and you can always sub things to make it pioneer)
Pandemic times really hit this format hard. The format was announced in late October of 2019, just shy of two years ago from now (and sadly just a few mere months before everything was locked down). The phrase “a rough few years” really says a lot, for both about Pioneer and the pandemic lol
0:35 the fact that Prof didn't say "don't call it a comeback it's been here for years" dissapoints me. That was a sick opportunity for a reference.
Same bro.
LL Cool J is sad
Thank you! I’ve been waiting for these to be reviewed.
The part on inserting a code to play the pioneer decks even online can be applied also to commander precons. They would gain so much from the digital side,it just seems they don't really care .
Putting a code in the commander precons would also force them to code all the new cards into MTGO
@@raymondgreen9379 i mean a lot of effort for sure,but it's a whole new business where the income would not come from cards but from other stuff. Quarantine didn't teach them anything. I would have paid a lot to have a working videogame with a good looking UI to play commander with my friends and with my decks.
@@alessandrodellanno948 oh I was agreeing with you
@@raymondgreen9379 yeah I know. Sorry if I sounded rude. I was just saying:)
@@raymondgreen9379 they want to milk Mtgo till it dies or considered too much competition for Arena
I agree professor, I was highly disappointed when I found out there was no code included. Love the channel btw.
Im probably gonna pick up the lotus field combo just for the set of lotus fields, the omniscience, and the approach of the second sun. the lotus fields were stopping me from going to into jeskai control in modern with the blood sun package, and the omniscience and approach can easily slot into a little casual azorius edh deck ive been brewing for pods
Thank you so much professor! I wanted a pioneer deck for the "gp" in LA and saw the new video you made. I'm very excited to try out the lotus field/auras deck!
Wanted to see this review for a couple of days now I was interested in picking one up but wanted to get your approval!
Yeah, me too in fact 😅
I've just started magic and your videos are so helpful, thanks for the hard work :)
Oddly enough the spirit deck was the one I was the most excited for and picked up 2 of them on release day
i have a Merfolk Pioneer and i love it on how consistent and aggressive is
Thanks for the video. I had high hopes when these were originally announced, because I’m interested in having a base for a mono-red Pioneer and Modern deck, but at a $45-50 price point I’m seeing online, it feels like it would be better to just buy singles. I do factor in the convenience of just getting a complete deck right away and upgrading it later. If I come across one for $39.99 I’ll probably get it.
With the mono-red (notice EVERY Challenger Series has had Mono-red?) you've already purchased most of the cards in it if you've gotten the previous challenger decks. The Monastery Swiftspears are the only "new" Challenger card as the Soul-Scar was a 3 of in the first set which also had Chandra and the Couriers. 2019 gave us all the burn and the wizards plus whirler while 2020 gave use the Giant and Stage. Depending on if you've gotten the previous decks there's not much to the Red Burn deck.
I visited three LGS's to find Challenger Decks a week or so ago, and the selection was very limited. I'm glad to have your videos to sort them and their relative values, so I can know which are the best, have the best mana-bases, and which years did Wizards decide to screw the Consumers/players, and which years they actually put some heart into the damn cards. Thank you, as always Prof, for your efforts to review product and voice a dissenting view on the ever-increasing price of luxury cardboard rectangles.
Still unsure on this one. My lgs is starting up ioneer events and I could grab one of these, or brew budget energy or ensoul for the same cost, which I think I would have more fun playing
Love the videos. Keep up the good work I have a group of friends and sometimes when we play magic I bring out the last set of challenge deals and we just pick one makes a fun night
no shocklands is abysmal. with the recent secret lair printing they've basically said they're only worth at most $8 a piece. for a $50 per con i'd expect at least 2
Considering Secret Lairs are usually foil, nah. They're only so low since Wizards doesn't has to split profits with LGS. Otherwise the cheapest SL would've been 100 bucks from the get go if they worked with LGS rather than order from Wizards themselves. What's Wizards is doing here is.morr dishonest than Konami intentionally gutting 10 dollar structure decks for non JP markets way back when
Thanks prof for those reviews! I just finished my first pioneer deck and I will test it tomorow at my lgs. I think this format will be very popular.
I love Pioneer! I was super excited when it first was announced, and it was one of the only formats I've ever played with any consistency at a game store. I play prereleases but never played much else in person, so I was glad to play weekly at my LGS. I'm afraid covid killed it. I haven't played at all post Inverter ban. I wish they would just get it on Arena already then maybe I'd play Arena
Agree!!
I loved Pioneer when it came out, its what kept me going in Magic when I was getting very tired of it. It gave me a fun way to build competitively without relying too heavily on the mana base, as well as revisit standard decks of old that could enjoy some of the newer tech! I intend on picking up the Auras and Lotus Field decks to keep together, but I'm probably going to keep using my own brews for Pioneer nights, should they return to my LGS.
I like pioneer when you get to play against someone who is playing a weird tier 2 deck of cards you haven't seen in ages. I always queue into sweaty tier 1 cookie cutter decks. Pioneer also never fires in my area since all the bans and the apocalypse.
mtg arena land destruction decks xD
@@ruffneck168 I play Ponza historic all the time lol
@@AndreJHoward ive been running something similar r/g brew of my own with waking the trolls stone rain, 8 other land destruction cards and mana ramp xD and the explore card that lets you add addditional land cards and draw 7 for a turn and threat and the haste/riot wyrm. fun deck if you get the right hand you can burn lands turn 2/3 consistently and for those running hard mana bases lulullululul the only problem are mono aggro decks or dual aggro decks with good land base. otherwise its fun to smash their lands.
Pioneer is the FNM format of choice at my LGS so I grabbed and upgraded the Lotus Field deck to give the format a try. For me, $45 for a pretty good version of the deck was a good value. I upgraded the mana base and swapped out another dozen or so cards to up the competitiveness. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the valuable and informative product review!
So am I the only one who remembers the basic formats (standard, modern, legacy, and commander) and not much else? How many different formats do we even have at this point?
You forgot Vintage, Pioneer, and Brawl.
I have played paper Pioneer at my local game store pre-Covid, and it's quite fun and unique. If we are able to start up regular tournaments again for it, I full intend to play Pioneer again. It's a worthy format.
I love pioneer because most deck brews have some chance of being competitive, even jank. I get disappointed that many MTG players still claim modern is the king non-rotating format and just dismiss Pioneer.
I just do not have a good time when games get decided on turns 3-4 because I don't have access to the latest $200 playsets of one drops or have expensive mana bases to keep my decks competitive.
Always wanted to get into pioneer, but I never knew just how to get into it. My lgs started doing events for pioneer thanks to these.
We should be careful on money useage,if you are not spending to earn back,then stop spending.
True ! Even some rich men made it through investing there money in something doing and they made it.
Investing in today is priceless because tomorrow isn't promised, trading Bitcoins,gold, silver and crypto secure a better tomorrow.
@ahoj Gregory That won't bother you if you trade with a professional like Mr MATTHEW SMITH.
▆ ▇ █ ＋𝟏𝟓𝟎𝟕𝟖𝟔𝟕𝟖𝟔𝟑𝟎
@Kathryn Mullins reach him out Whatsapp
Hey Professor, heart you! I’m a retail manager and wanted to explain a bit about your math about margin.
Game stores will want to charge a consistent margin if at all possible for each catagory of product they sell. Booster boxes, sealed precons and singles all have unique margins.
Margin affects prices proportionally based off the size of the investment. So if a game store invests $30 in product as opposed to $18 as in this scenario, it would want to make more than $12 back to cover the higher investment and risk.
Just want to call this out, translating a $X dollar profit from a lower cost cannot translate into the same $X profit from a higher cost, at least in the retail world. Amazon operates differently, they operate when selling directly as Amazon by selling products just above cost. The problem with this is you loose more money on every bit of unsold product, and while Amazon is big enough to support type of loss, most retail establishments such as games stores can’t.
The fact that there is no redemption code really parts my interest in these decks; even planeswalker decks had redemption codes
Thank you for always looking after our interests as players, Prof. Great review, answered all my questions!
What percentage of your viewers are from Europe? When you do monetary analysis, could you start looking at the European market too? Most people here use Cardmarket trend prices for singles pricing. And the product price should be fairly easy to figure out too =)
Prof! LOVE the flow, serious style this episode
My LGS is having a hard enough time restarting Standard events (Modern, Commander, and Limited are the most active formats at the store). They’re not even attempting to start Pioneer up.
I love the idea of pioneer as a returning player from 2016, and I can use the same cards I used to play with. I know the same reason applies to modern, I guess I’m just biased toward pioneer because Ravinica draws the line right before I started playing.
Thanks. This video shed some light. You taught me a thing or two. Keep up the good work!
I love Pioneer and have been playing at my LGS for like 2 years now, (safely as we can). I play a hammer time variant and love when I see content creators mention the format. I hope the format can stick around for when paper play and make a comeback.
To echo at least one other comment on here, retail prices are based on percentages (usually) so upping the base cost to the store is going to have a bigger effect on the retail price. They have to do it that way because otherwise there is little to no incentive for the store to sell more expensive items. The store had to risk an additional $100 to stock their shelves with these decks over the standard challenger decks, they have to make more money back to make up for that risk, and any decks that don't sell.
I was sad when I got into retail (only a sideline at my work) and realized how much we all pay in markup as customers, but that's what pays for the local game store (and even Amazon to a point) to keep going and be worth owning/investing in. It also pays staff and keeps the lights on!
Might be a cool video for you to go "behind the scenes" at a local game store and see how they work from a business perspective!
Thanks for all you do! :)
Prof you seem to have your collar looser and looser each video. So casual! I love it.
I will say this, my LGS is opening up for in person play again and the majority of people on their website say "Pioneer" as the one format they're interested in. I see some Modern and Commander and Legacy and Cube here and there, but the overwhelming majority say Pioneer.
Glad to see that =)
I really had fun in Pioneer back when in person events were allowed I had a cat deck that worked very well in my local meta
I run a cat deck too! While a little too slow vs combo/control, its incredibly strong against other creature based decks (which are very popular right now)
Thanks for the cost breakdown. My LGS is selling them for $60 each.
Amazon has then for $43
Thanks for all that you do I am working on my own pioneer deck it's fun making my own from scratch...
I pretty much said the same thing yesterday about Spirits. Take out the temples and put in shock lands. Temples and check lands together make for a slow start. Also, replace the Brazen Borrower with a Selfless Spirit and it's pretty much good to go.
Thank you for doing these videos professor! Much appreciated 🙏
it's nice to see Magic releasing products for people to get into other formats easily, especially with how much Modern is to play, Pioneer is a great intro into other constructed formats outside of Standard.
Pioneer BW Zombies is one of my most favorite decks of any format. I hope pioneer picks up some more so I can play it more often
I absolutely love Pioneer. I started playing Pioneer when it was announced, and since I had come back to Magic during the first Theros block, it was a perfect fit for me. I have seven Pioneer decks today, and they are great decks that I can let people use for pick up games as well.
Thanks for all of the informative videos! I agree I wish this had a code for arena. I’m new to magic and it’s been a really great way to learn.
I actually built 2 Pioneer decks prior to the pandemic. The first was Orzhov Angels, with Divine Visitation, Bishop of Wings, and Resplendent Angel as the main pieces. It wasn't perfect, but it did win a few matches when I played with the deck in some Pioneer events. Kaldheim and Midnight Hunt have more good Angels to add to that list if I choose to update it.
The second deck is a Boros "Reflection" deck, which is likely my preferred deck of the two, though the pandemic had started right after I built it, and I only got to use it a couple times anyhow. It revolves around cards that deal damage to an opponent based on the damage they were dealt themselves, and it is possible to win as early as turn 4 with it. The key cards in that build are Brash Taunter, Stormwild Capridor, Irencrag Feat, and Star of Extinction, with a few other good pieces. Once Pioneer opens back up at my local game store, I can't wait to use it there.
Greta video! I love Pioneer and have been playing it since it’s inception. Thank you for letting me know about the awesome guys of Crew 3 podcast. They have kept me informed about my favorite format since the beginning. I don’t plan to buy these decks as I have all the cards from them that I want already, but I’m glad Wizards put them out. Pioneer is super fun and I will continue to play it as my constructed format of choice!
Who tries to win fairly with Combo? The point of Combo is to win through degeneracy....
Nuggets like this is the reason why I love this channel. Thank you, Prof
Honestly I'm sad that they screwed the mana bases of these decks in this way, but I'm still planning on picking them up, in part because pioneer does look fun! Also being able to just pick up the deck and play it out of the box seems like a nice way of learning the format and how it plays, and even if these are more expensive, it's a nice way of learning what decks you do and don't enjoy! The WB Auras and Lotus Field Combo appeal to me personally, and honestly do look really fun! I'd love to try pioneer with the lotus deck, in part because it sounds like a fun challenge!!
Pioneer is easily my favourite nonrotating format, and I think the main reason I find it so enjoyable and full of deck building possibilities is because unlike the others Wizards hasn't yet meddled with it.
When Modern was first announced my friends and I, who at that time mostly played kitchen table Magic using cards we had acquired from standard expansions, recognized it as essentially the format we were already playing. The Modern Horizons sets destroyed that paradigm, by injecting cards into the format, a dozen or so of which are so powerful it's become almost impossible to brew or tweak a competitive deck without using them.
Pioneer is still basically Standard Plus, where many old standard decks are still viable with a few upgrades, alongside new archetypes exclusive to the format. In particular it's a format not yet dominated by combos, where fair decks of different hues still thrive.
I don't even play MTG but I love these videos. They are so well done!
Recently got back into paper MTG in a big way because of pioneer. Cheaper less broken decks than modern which I could never afford to play (apart from a budget soul sisters deck). I play a lot of orzhov decks so was thinking of picking up auras and some godless shrines to use in several decks. Even planning on running some casual pioneer games in my brewery this winter. If WOTC gave more support to this format and tweaked pricing and mana bases on these challenger decks I think a lot more people would be getting into the format! Would LOVE to see digital codes too! Especially after losing my arena library from the closed beta :-( cheers for the awesome vids prof
I know this is off topic, but you're looking good Prof - hope you're doing well in these wild times.
Thank you for another entertaining and educational video. :3
I've been playing pioneer lots over the past couple months. It has been fun and great. Were hoping these decks help more people get into the format in our area and at our local lgs
Saw these at the store. I'm an orzhov fan so I was very close to picking it up. Good to know my decision wouldn't have been terrible.
Really glad to see the hard numbers on this product, while the value is there it's hard to disagree about the sabatoge of not including shocks or at least one copy for each deck. Most magic players that are new to competetive dont understand the consistency that a proper land base provides and the price puts them off from upgrading them first. I think an upgrade guide along with including a shock (to help show how powerful they are to new players) would make these decks a much better product.
Beaitiful vid, only a correction: temple of mistery is played 4x in a lot of lotus field combo competitive lists!
Very useful feedback, i just bought the Azorius spirits deck. I'll be looking into more mana options ASAP. 👊 👊
Plus some other interesting cards I've seen on your channel and Game Knights.
Hi Prof. Always a fan of the content, so I apologise for how long this comment is going to be.
When they first announced Pioneer, I was deep into Modern. So I shrugged it off. In the years that followed since, I moved out of Modern (and Magic as a whole) and focused more on other card games. In the last few weeks, I've been back into Magic and through MTGA, Historic was my format of choice. When they announced these Challenger decks, I had already sold out of most of my Modern collection. After doing a very small bit of initial research into what Pioneer was and why I should be interested in it, I felt that these Challenger decks was the perfect entry point into the format (plus, I live for obtuse combo decks).
A friend of mine who also recently picked up Magic was interested in Pioneer, as he had a semi-sizable collection from starting Modern, but didn't want to make the investment jump into finishing his set of fetches and other staples (such as Force of Negation). We both agreed that Pioneer would be a cheaper, easier way to play "Modern" and committed to buying one each. So at the very least, I have two cases that showed that these decks were effective at their goal. How much more Pioneer we play going forward remains to be seen due to support from our local area, but at the very least, it piqued my interest.
In the time since the decklists for these decks were revealed to the actual release, I engorged myself on Pioneer content, especially about the Lotus Field combo I was about to pick up. I looked up decklists, watched content, even goldfished games on Tabletop Simulator. I was basically ready to commit to Pioneer.
While I commend your thoroughness in analysis, especially when it comes to finances, criticism of WotC's lack of MSRP, and a few other printing choices in these decks, I feel that your lack of familiarity of Pioneer compared to say, Pauper or Modern, really shines through. Allow me to take the Lotus Field deck as the example I have become most well-versed in. The choice to not add a Blast Zone is indeed one I find strange. However, your criticisms of Temple of Mystery are completely unfounded. The card is the ideal target for a turn 1 Arboreal Grazer, and is an excellent play on turn 5-6 while you are digging for Peer Through Depths or some other piece of gas. Meanwhile, Breeding Pool sees virtually no play in the deck, because you have zero care for basic land types, meaning the less average life loss for Yavimaya Coast is actually preferable. As it stands, beyond Blast Zone, the major manabase upgrades people would be looking for for Lotus Field Combo would be Barkchannel Pathway and Botanical Sanctum - while I completely agree these would have been significantly better than the 10 basics we got in the deck, I do not think the problem is as deep as you are suggesting. The most valid complaint you gave was the lack of the Emergent Ultimatum Package, which in reality is: 1-2 Baral, 2-3 Ultimatum, and a second Omniscience. I don't consider that a huge loss. In all honesty, the biggest failure of the deck is including 4 Opt instead of 4 Bala Ged Recovery - both pennies worth of cards, but one is false consistency chaff, whereas the other is critical into the combo's resilience.
Orzhov Auras on the other hand, has indeed fallen off, and I think it would have been more pertinent to mention that these decks were designed/drafted several months ago - during which time, both Auras and Lotus Field were more prevalent in the metagame. I can't speak much on Burn because my knowledge of that deck is limited. In the case of Spirits, I think the line of Collected Company is something that most Spirits players will be aware of anyway and that alone would be enough reason to encourage and upgrading of the manabase. I agree that no Hallowed Fountain and no Pathways make it harder for people to know exactly what they should be upgrading, and that they could have done better than 4 Temple of Enlightenment, but as you say - Spirits is one of the best Pioneer decks right now. Compared with how low of a metagame proportion the other three decks take, presumably because of their poor placement in the meta, I think from the perspective of "play these decks against each other out of the box", having one be heads and shoulders above the others may have been something they were actively trying to avoid. I can't imagine it's healthy for the format if everyone rocks up to FNM, buys the Spirits deck, sleeves it up, and now you have to play against Spirits for 3 rounds because it's just such a value acquisition. Years of mismatched Commander Deck quality can attest to this.
On the whole, I largely agree with your assessment - these decks are indeed good value, but they are lacking that spark that makes them snap purchases. I am only a very specific type of customer - one who was already somewhat interested in Pioneer because I didn't want to invest 50% of the deck's value into fetchlands that I didn't already own. However, I still feel like your judgement was a bit too harsh because your point-of-view has been eschewed by the value of reprints and the concessions they made to card quality in the decks. Sideboard aside, Opt is basically the only card in Lotus Field that I have not seen any lists playing - the decision of Shimmer of Possibility versus Strategic Planning is a totally viable debate, as is the number of Dig Through Time to play. While we would all love to spend $50 for a product that contains $200 of value to the point where the only other thing you'd need to buy to win a large event is sleeves, I think we can throw Wizards a bone here and say that they also have an interest in us buying other product, and as do game stores for selling us singles such as $20 for a playset of Pathways or $40 for a playset of shocks. And so by that logic, I think these decks are an incredible compromise and should be highly recommended for anyone looking to get into Pioneer, with the caveat that these are not perfect nor complete products.
In the end, I don't deny that these decks could have been better and should have been better. However, I still believe we should recognise that Wizards could have supported the Pioneer format in ways that cost them less and benefitted the playerbase less, and so these decks, how they were executed, and what they achieve should still be commended. I still enjoyed your video, but I just felt like there was an underlying feeling of upset that your own lofty expectations being let down, instead of being excited that Pioneer could finally be a reasonable middle-ground between Modern and Pauper and suggesting all the budget improvements people could make to these decks.