I can't express how much emotional damage I just took from seeing Sacred Stones described as a "20 year old SRPG" and understanding how completely true that statement is.
I was a kid when sacred stones came out and I’d just beaten fe7. Summon blew my damn mind and I had endless fun soloing valni with whoever I’d made into a summoner on that playthrough
They get swords! Think of all the utility against... Centaurs! And berserkers! It's the focusing on a single weapon type that gives them the ability to have a skill, of course. (ignore general it almost doesn't do anything anyway)
@@actuallizard Silly but, Falcoknights do appreciate the lower weight Swords have for dodging. And I want to say that if all 3 units are falcoknights all 3 can initiate the triangle attack? I vaguely remember that being a thing, and if 1 of them was wyvern knight only they could initiate triangle attack. Might be wrong
@dominicmoisant8393 I do recall that specifically in FE8, you can't use the triangle attack if both Tana and Vanessa are wyverns, though. I know of other triangle attacks in games like FE4 and FE6 that were mages and knights too
Greatshield feels like it was intended for boss enemies and got only on your unit by proxy. I've had Tirado and Vigarde block a high level Reginnleif attack that way, proc rate should probably be higher though.
I would say that Level% works if you use awakening logic, aka being promoted counts as 20 levels, so a level 1 sage would be level 21, makes all of those skills much more usefull
Summons are so sick for the reasons you mentioned. I'm a huge fan. The only issue, admittedly a pretty funny one, is that they can take desert items and also droppable items from killed enemies. Because you can't trade with phantoms, those items are effectively gone. Oops! Sure Shot always felt lame given how accurate snipers are in the first place. A buff I had in mind would be to increase the damage output a bit alongside the guaranteed hit.
I'm so fortunate that 8 is your favorite entry. I’m always eating good on this channel. And I’m always adding your videos to my “game dev” playlist because your dissection of the systems is perfect
Slayer is also really good for giving Moulder or Natasha an extra bit of punch after promotion since neither of them should be great at dealing damage by that point
I know most skills with proc rates are tied to skill in modern games, but I wish some were tied to other states. It would be cool if Great Shield's activation rate was based on the unit's defense. The skill will be useful from the beginning and have a decent activation rate. It is still a bad idea to take magical damage, but there is a good chance for the skill to negate one major blow.
Hey hey hey, you forgot another """skill""" along side slayer, and personally my favorite from GBA era FE! Good ol' Crit +30 for Swordmasters! 🤣 Edited thanks to the lovely comments below - It's actually only +15 in FE7 and 8, which I hadn't realized! This is just more Rutger propaganda, smdh!
Only +30 in FE6, FE7/8 nerfed that to +15. Still a respectable bonus, but it’s the difference between “banking on a crit isn’t that bad of a choice” and “I dual wield killing edges.”
The only Great Shield proc I remember is when I was fighting Lyon on the final map of Hard Mode and I had my General Amelia attack into him and taking no damage due to the skill
I've always liked proc skills more when they improve damage. There's a reason sol, luna, astra are so well liked ; having what is basically a second crit chance, one that isn't reduced by enemy luck or dependant on having rare killer weapons over the course of enough combats will start to pay off. Probably why pierce is the best of the proc skills here.
FE9 and 10 brought skills to another level. Something like Vantage+Wrath Mia or just how useful Pass and Provoke can be... They make strategy deeper (and cooler)
So on Silencer, in 7 it does work on the dragon. Kid me was a patient player and got curious whether Jafar could take out the dragon on a 0 damage hit. I feel like a good way to use character level in proc rates is to simply add it to the proc chance. That way, the player gets a small but consistent bonus in case the player gets unlucky rolls. Could be balanced, maybe 1/2 level should the skill be too OP with a high proc chance.
I found your channel the other day and been kinda binging. This and other stuff you've made kinda makes me wanna see what a longer and more difficult modern fe8 would be like. Didn't know silencer modifier so learned that. Thanks!
I think Silencer really hit its stride when it was implemented as Lethality in Awakening. Not because of the change to working off of Skill and being independent upon whether the move was actually a crit, but because of the addition of the black silhouettes against a blood-red background. Seeing an assassin double-image before vanishing and descending upon the target is awesome, but seeing nothing but the silhouettes of the attacker, the target, and the blood spatter is epic. That all said, I had no idea Silencer was actually its own thing until Sacred Stones, even having played FE7. Whenever I saw it in my FE7 playthroughs, I had assumed that assassins simply had 2 crit animations, because it just so happened that every crit that would have killed anyway procced Silencer, and every crit that wouldn't have didn't proc it. Thus, I assumed the animation was based on whether the crit was bound to kill or not. I think what cemented this in my head was a time where Jaffar landed a crit that didn't kill on his first attack, and then on his second attack, procced another crit with the double-team animation.
another reason why pavise is a poorly designed skill is when it’s used by enemies. Unlike enemies with high avoid, which can be mitigated by using more accurate weapons, taking advantage of weapon triangle or having supports, there is simply nothing you can do to prevent pavise from negating your attacks. It’s especially annoying on the chapter 8 boss who already has throne bonuses and is fought at a point when most of your units are level 10 unprompted.
Yeahhh, and I hate it the most in FE4, that game almost spams that skill on enemies because it was an enemy only class skill. You know that race to the villages in Chapter 2? It sounds really cool that an optional turn count timer is in FE4 of all games but then they put in several luck based stall mechanics. (still liked that chapter tho)
@@myguy4203 It's not enemy only -- it's also on generals, so promoted Arden (lol) and Hannibal get it as well. But giving it to Barons was probably a mistake.
the way i'd set up pavise is have it be on all generals, but only make it half damage, but make it always work if you're under a certain % health threshold
I love pierce. But I like having animations on and IIRC pierce can glitch your game if you have animations on. I think it’s if you hit a pierce on an enemy that cannot counter, don’t OHKO the enemy, and then would double, it can *sometimes* glitch your game and force a restart.
Yeah, it's a thing, and an annoying one. Specifically, the glitch happens if you hit an enemy again while their HP is still decreasing from the previous attack.
what's weird about that is that the bug doesn't exist in the original japanese release of fe8, it was something added when they localized it to western audiences
I have a feeling when they balance the proc skills in fe8, they are doing it with the mind of the enemies having access to them hence why they were so underwhelming in the player's hand. If only most of this proc by skill percentage instead, it will be better in most cases
Sacred stones skills can be so mega broken. The summoning skill alone had to be nerfed in different ways like fates sharing hp pools and engage making it a dlc ring that is random on what you get for a specific amount of time.
I mean, the Lyn ring basically has it's own version of summons, sure they don't move but the enemies will pretty much always go for them so they can bail you out of many situations
I’d argue both of those are better while you have them. In Sacred stones there are many times using a summon is actively bad since they would distract an enemy that your strong enemy phase juggernaut would kill anyway so using a phantom just hurts you rather it helping you. Also the phantoms themselves don’t do great damage so summoning them just to hit something isn’t great outside of the egg map if they need to get rid of one. In fates Replicate has issues with how late you’ll get it (having it on Jakob/Felica can be funny, there’s better alternatives but don’t think it’s bad either) but even then having a unit with real stats or support functions is far better than having a meat shield for really bulky units who don’t really need one. I haven’t used the ones in engage much, but I’d argue them having actual stats also makes them better as well since they can hit something back at least when they get targeted. With how weak units are in Sacred stones summons are far more likely to be liabilities on enemy phase who prevent your strong combat units from killing an enemy compared to the utility functions other summon like functions have in the later games.
Artur can reliably take out cyclops, which is difficult for a lot of your characters without sacred weapons. If you get Purge, Artur can help snipe shadow shot evil eyes, stone medusa, and the biggest threat dracozombies without getting into range. My Artur could reliably 2 shot the dracozombie boss in the second to last mission, which can allow you to just rescue drop or warp your lord in and skip most the map. Slayer was awesome.
Lethality is purely for the style factor 😎 Speaking of, I hate how FE8 changed the color of lethality, the red effects in FE7 were way more appropriate and felt more overtly "lethal" imo
I actually felt pain in my soul for the lost EXP when you suggested killing Gorgon eggs with a Phantom. I don't agree with most "lol exp thief" arguments there days, but come on, Gorgon Eggs are a FREE 50 EXP!
Hi Lizard! Imagine if proc skills were based on the sum of your level and the enemy's level (and being promoted added 20 levels). It would make skills quite a bit more reliable.
Ah yes, Pierce, the best proc skill in FE8 but also the one most likely to cause you to reset, thanks to a glitch that can freeze the game if it procs on an enemy that can't counter and does too much damage (seems to be something about the second attack occurring before damage from the first attack has finished ticking down). Granted, it only happens if you have battle animations on (which it seems like most players don't) but it's still rather frustrating to deal with, especially for a casual player who doesn't know the conditions for its occurrence and likes having battle animations.
Personally the way I'd "fix" Pierce and Silencer is by making them guaranteed, but specifically on Player Phase. Pierce always activates when you initiate combat, Silencer always activates on a crit when it's Player Phase. Pierce may need to be nerfed to only ignore half DEF/RES in this case Great Shield and Sureshot are just bad, there's not much you can do to fix them that wouldn't just involve making them a completely different skill. Honestly I just really don't like proc skills. They add too much uncertainty to a game that really does not need more randomness imo
I feel like pierce is only considered to be better than silencer because it's on a better unit. The proc chance is generally lower and you deal bonus damage compared to a guaranteed kill.
I feel like most skills were actually mainly designed to be more relevant on enemies than your own units. When you're easily one-rounding Generals or comfortably dodge tanking Snipers, those skill procs are much more relevant, and they give a (albeit very small) "fighting chance" to the enemies. Since we don't know the developers' intents, it's hard to say which way it was done, but I feel like a lot of FE games (and other games as well) have these skills/mechanics that are more relevant for enemies than for the player, and were seemingly designed with the enemies in mind first and given to players second "just because".
Slayer puts in a lot of work in creature campaign if you’re inclined to play that. It has that top tier spam hordes of cyclopes that have even more inflated hp level design, and you have easier access to stronger light tomes and CON boosting. Killing dracozombies with purge doubling is the pinnacle of everything right and wrong with that mode.
I'm sitting here contemplating how to make these skills a bit better. Maybe sure shot has a 20% of your accuracy to turn any hit into a crit. Snipers are usually super accurate anyway, and adding it to their crit would help their damage and probably give some of that feels good energy pierce and silencer have. at 75% hitrate it breaks even with the crit bonus skills, but it caps out at 20% I think being bow locked is worth a better version of what they have though. Great shield should just be your shown level +20. They tend to take scratch damage anyway, and while it is still incredibly risky, it would be able to save you from a mage or effective weapon every now and then. That's a 20-40% chance to negate damage, and since you're probably getting doubled anyway, that's about a 35%-65% chance per combat. Might be a little too much, but at the same time, you're using a general. Pierce is better than great shield, so I think have the proc rate works. 10+half your level means you start with 10% and go up to a max of 20%. Its effectively a different type of crit, so the number seems about right at first glance. As for enemy%, I feel like the only class I can see making good use of that is a super trainee. They're already meant to be a meme, so an inconsistent benefit is fitting for them. My first thought is a boost to an in combat stat equal to enemy level (plus 20 for promoted) and a small bonus to one of their actual stats. Each trainee could have a different version too. Journeyman would get that much hit and speed. Those are the two biggest problems a low con axe user has. Pupil gets avoid and magic. Mages don't like getting hit, and the super pupil seems like it was meant to be a really offensive one. and recruit gets it as crit and defense. Crit since they're kinda like a swordmaster, and defense to reference all the bulk the other classes would be giving her.
I'd like to add a bit to this, because I feel like thief utility is a bit too broadly put here. In the context of FE8, we kind of have to look at this by looking at Colm as a unit. With him in mind, I don't think having to protect him isn't much of an issue because he is really fast and early FE8 has a bunch of axe units and brushes, so he has tons of avoid under most circumstances. The enemies themselves also aren't terribly accurate or hard hitting, so he's often safe to put in range of 3 enemies with the only downside being that he doesn't counter at 2 range. I also think the stat boosters aren't that incredibly valuable because in this game, you're not gonna rely on raw str values as much as in some of the other games. The energy drop isn't really much of a big deal when factoring in how Seth is going to do most of the fighting in the first half of the game and effective weapons and good prepromotes being plentiful in the second, for example. Still you want those, but I find it's not much of a big deal if you end up missing them, even if you plan on grinding out units later, because the tower exists. If you're somehow starved for units with good hp and str, despite how low the enemy quality in this game is, you can just grind out a unit in casual play. I think with these things in mind, it does relativate the thief utility and makes stealing relatively uncomplicated, which is a bit of a shame imo.
Kind of debatable if you wanna consider it a skill, but what about Canto? If we're counting stealing, then I feel it deserves being brought up in the conversation as it is probably one of the best and most flexible skills in the game.
Does Disarm trap counts as a skill or a Hidden Skill only for Thieves, Rouges and Assassins? I mean, the only traps you can disarm is the Lava Tiles in the Gorgon Egg Map so it is not that useful.
Sure Shot is really stupid, because even at max level it's a 20% chance... to hit the target. Like, if I somehow managed to get a max level sniper with a 50% chance to hit that would bring them all the way up to... 60%. 90%? Well, first the way the RNG works turns that into a 98.1%, then Sure Shot turns it into a 98.5%. It's really hard to find a situation where this isn't a rounding error. I guess maybe it has some value on enemy snipers, ensuring that even your dodgiest dodge tank can't totally evade them all the time? Pierce on the other hand I have extremely fond memories of Cormag getting a crit-pierce on the final boss and inflicting something like 210 damage in a single blow and killing the demon king instantly.
Steal and Silencer were technically in FE7 too, though they were more presented as a unique skill of the Thief and Assassin rather than being something explicitly categorized as a Skill. Still, they needed those, since they'd otherwise be mere Lockpick holders.
my first game with skills was actually path of radiance I never played FE8 until a friend from school let me borrow it and i think that was the first time I was underwhelmed with fire emblem and would certainly not be the last time
Disagree, colms combat contributions is about on par with Joshuas and he just has more utility less needed promotion item. And easy supports if you care for that. The only thing hurting his combat is his low skill, which doesnt matter to much unless you need a crit. But secret books which are pretty none competitive items are also there. And josh was likly to want those as wells since he isnt likly to get enough skill to reiliably crit ether. If anything i would say colms biggiest issue is his promotion is less of a big upgrade, as both arent great. You either like assassins chances, which is a good skill in like very nich ways but the exp gain is goated and keeps him competing even when he is off doing chest stuff. But he does lose steal, in erika route there isnt a lot of stealing needed after the first chapter though.
I don't understand why FE games have these wack % chance for skills. The first thing I'd change about Engage if I got to do a fan patch would be make all the proc skills something that always happens and lower how effective they are to make them less insane
Wait, Great Shield is *enemy* level%!? No wonder it never procs outside link arena, that is awful. xD Also, yeah, Sure Shot is kinda useless. It would have been much more sensical if it had more to it than simply "makes attack always hit when proc". Like, maybe they could have made it so that it also makes you do 50% more damage or make it give you a crit if your hit is already naturally 100%. Simply giving you an alternate hitcheck would have only made sense on low-hit units because of true hit...but there are not a lot of low or no-hit scenarios in this game.(Imagine how brr the skill would have gone on FE6 dark mages with eclipse. They would have actually been useful)
Does anyone know a good place to go to debate these things? I wouldn’t mind doing videos like this debating two units, but I’d like a bit of experience first so maybe a forum debate? I know those are old school so idk if any are still active.
Technically, I say FE7 had skills, but only one unit (Assassins) possessed lethality/silencer. Their crit hit would either trigger first though or doubling an enemy would prevent it from happening. Essentially though they killed someone in one blow saving weapon uses by finishing off an enemy in a single strike.
Love SS for the reason of not being skill-bogged. I like skills for being able to differentiate units but similar to every FE game from awakening and on, the ability to reclass means every unit can get basically every skill and the same class which is great for early runs but quickly gets boring. Individual skills also aren’t great because it’s the difference between making a unit bad and good or terrible to OP. Having set classes per unit with minimal skills in game allows each unit to continue to be “individual” without needing specialized skills. I think the worst it got is during any game that allows certain units to take actions no others can, ie, royal units being able to affect maps which makes them instantly more useful than non royal units. Love SS for this reason.
I, for one, prefer it the way fe8 did it. More subtle, nice when it procs but you never rely on it. You weren't trying to pick up skills as they were locked to your units' classes, a predetermined thing somewhat. From Awakening onwards, it became all about picking up as many of the broken skills as you can get, kinda like a checklist (and don't get me started on the eugenics in some of those games). The more time you spend outside of maps (or supports if that's your thing), the less exciting the gameplay becomes imo. 3H and Engage being the worst offenders set a very worrying trend for future games (units are stat blobs with a gender and a usually fairly low-impact personal skill), and I just wish units would become class-locked again with way less class switching options as it would finally give characters with poor stats but good class access a spot in the game again.
Mhm. Mhm. I see. Interesting. Yeah, skills are cool and all. All those strategies and potential things to think about, that's real neato. But consider: Throwing Seth at all of life's problems.
You forgot that Silencer also gives an extra 50% XP when it procs, so even when it is unnecessary it still does give you a small benefit
wow didn't know that
General: good news I can block damage. Bad news I'm an armor knight
General hilarious flail thing should’ve blessed them with a skill that gives everything they hold a 1-2 range.
@@runningoncylinders3829 honestly, I'm down. Let generals feel like hilarious combat gods that can't get anywhere fast on their own.
See also: Snipers
Babe wake up actual lizard dropped another video essay on a 20 year old srpg
And next week I'll do one on a 19 year old srpg!
I can't express how much emotional damage I just took from seeing Sacred Stones described as a "20 year old SRPG" and understanding how completely true that statement is.
Sacred Stones is when they really started trying to expand skills, so it makes sense that it would be a shaky start.
I was a kid when sacred stones came out and I’d just beaten fe7. Summon blew my damn mind and I had endless fun soloing valni with whoever I’d made into a summoner on that playthrough
finding out the better wyvern class statwise also gets the skill will never not be funny. beautiful game design moment
I don't know why they hated Falcoknights so much in this one
They get swords! Think of all the utility against... Centaurs! And berserkers! It's the focusing on a single weapon type that gives them the ability to have a skill, of course. (ignore general it almost doesn't do anything anyway)
@@actuallizard Silly but, Falcoknights do appreciate the lower weight Swords have for dodging. And I want to say that if all 3 units are falcoknights all 3 can initiate the triangle attack? I vaguely remember that being a thing, and if 1 of them was wyvern knight only they could initiate triangle attack.
Might be wrong
@@qorv4973 Triangle attack is real lol, mostly with Peg Knights but in some games it can be other classes
@dominicmoisant8393 I do recall that specifically in FE8, you can't use the triangle attack if both Tana and Vanessa are wyverns, though.
I know of other triangle attacks in games like FE4 and FE6 that were mages and knights too
Great Shield should definetly be calculated using the General's Defense stat with *maybe* some missing health shenanigans going on too
Greatshield feels like it was intended for boss enemies and got only on your unit by proxy. I've had Tirado and Vigarde block a high level Reginnleif attack that way, proc rate should probably be higher though.
I would say that Level% works if you use awakening logic, aka being promoted counts as 20 levels, so a level 1 sage would be level 21, makes all of those skills much more usefull
Yeah but do we really want Valter running around with a minimum 23% pierce chance
@@Bogeynator that sounds like suffering...SO YES WE ABSOLUTELY DO LMAO
Yeah if you counted the promotion as 20, or even 10 levels, that would be a big improvement! It's just starting at 1% proc chance feels so rough.
Summons are so sick for the reasons you mentioned. I'm a huge fan. The only issue, admittedly a pretty funny one, is that they can take desert items and also droppable items from killed enemies. Because you can't trade with phantoms, those items are effectively gone. Oops!
Sure Shot always felt lame given how accurate snipers are in the first place. A buff I had in mind would be to increase the damage output a bit alongside the guaranteed hit.
Honestly, funniest thing about Slayer is applying it to Gleipnir, giving your Bishop dark tome ranks with Stone.
TETHYS GLEIPNIR GANG RISE UP!!!
Currently just killed Formortiis with Artur using Naglfar. It was beautiful. (The top left tile is the best one to use the control enemy glitch)
Fun fact
Colms lockpick has just enough uses to open every door and chest until rennac arrives no matter which route you choose.
I'm annoyed because I thought I was really smart for stealing another thief's lockpick, then I never needed to use it
@@suwazo1545 hey you can sell that for some gold
not that it matters in sacred stones but hey gold is gold
I'm so fortunate that 8 is your favorite entry. I’m always eating good on this channel. And I’m always adding your videos to my “game dev” playlist because your dissection of the systems is perfect
Slayer is also really good for giving Moulder or Natasha an extra bit of punch after promotion since neither of them should be great at dealing damage by that point
I know most skills with proc rates are tied to skill in modern games, but I wish some were tied to other states. It would be cool if Great Shield's activation rate was based on the unit's defense. The skill will be useful from the beginning and have a decent activation rate. It is still a bad idea to take magical damage, but there is a good chance for the skill to negate one major blow.
Hey hey hey, you forgot another """skill""" along side slayer, and personally my favorite from GBA era FE! Good ol' Crit +30 for Swordmasters! 🤣
Edited thanks to the lovely comments below - It's actually only +15 in FE7 and 8, which I hadn't realized! This is just more Rutger propaganda, smdh!
Only +30 in FE6, FE7/8 nerfed that to +15. Still a respectable bonus, but it’s the difference between “banking on a crit isn’t that bad of a choice” and “I dual wield killing edges.”
@@ness6099 I did qualify "GBA era FE"
Objectively stronger than any other proc, except fe4 astra
Yeah as a kid I always kinda counted that as a skil. And the GBA crits are just so satisfying, even when you don't actually need them.
@@DarkAuraLord Fe7 and 8 are the larger part of GBA FE.
The only Great Shield proc I remember is when I was fighting Lyon on the final map of Hard Mode and I had my General Amelia attack into him and taking no damage due to the skill
I've always liked proc skills more when they improve damage. There's a reason sol, luna, astra are so well liked ; having what is basically a second crit chance, one that isn't reduced by enemy luck or dependant on having rare killer weapons over the course of enough combats will start to pay off. Probably why pierce is the best of the proc skills here.
FE9 and 10 brought skills to another level. Something like Vantage+Wrath Mia or just how useful Pass and Provoke can be... They make strategy deeper (and cooler)
So on Silencer, in 7 it does work on the dragon. Kid me was a patient player and got curious whether Jafar could take out the dragon on a 0 damage hit.
I feel like a good way to use character level in proc rates is to simply add it to the proc chance. That way, the player gets a small but consistent bonus in case the player gets unlucky rolls. Could be balanced, maybe 1/2 level should the skill be too OP with a high proc chance.
I thought this was a old video. Im glad there are folks still gooning over this old gem XD
I found your channel the other day and been kinda binging.
This and other stuff you've made kinda makes me wanna see what a longer and more difficult modern fe8 would be like.
Didn't know silencer modifier so learned that. Thanks!
That Eirika level up at 2:30 made me feel things :D
Swordmaster and Berserker also gain +15% crit chance as passive skills.
I love ALL ActualLizard videos!!!! ❤
I wish silencer wasn't that nerfed and I also love summoner.
I think Silencer really hit its stride when it was implemented as Lethality in Awakening. Not because of the change to working off of Skill and being independent upon whether the move was actually a crit, but because of the addition of the black silhouettes against a blood-red background.
Seeing an assassin double-image before vanishing and descending upon the target is awesome, but seeing nothing but the silhouettes of the attacker, the target, and the blood spatter is epic.
That all said, I had no idea Silencer was actually its own thing until Sacred Stones, even having played FE7. Whenever I saw it in my FE7 playthroughs, I had assumed that assassins simply had 2 crit animations, because it just so happened that every crit that would have killed anyway procced Silencer, and every crit that wouldn't have didn't proc it. Thus, I assumed the animation was based on whether the crit was bound to kill or not. I think what cemented this in my head was a time where Jaffar landed a crit that didn't kill on his first attack, and then on his second attack, procced another crit with the double-team animation.
another reason why pavise is a poorly designed skill is when it’s used by enemies. Unlike enemies with high avoid, which can be mitigated by using more accurate weapons, taking advantage of weapon triangle or having supports, there is simply nothing you can do to prevent pavise from negating your attacks. It’s especially annoying on the chapter 8 boss who already has throne bonuses and is fought at a point when most of your units are level 10 unprompted.
Yeahhh, and I hate it the most in FE4, that game almost spams that skill on enemies because it was an enemy only class skill. You know that race to the villages in Chapter 2? It sounds really cool that an optional turn count timer is in FE4 of all games but then they put in several luck based stall mechanics. (still liked that chapter tho)
@@myguy4203 It's not enemy only -- it's also on generals, so promoted Arden (lol) and Hannibal get it as well. But giving it to Barons was probably a mistake.
the way i'd set up pavise is have it be on all generals, but only make it half damage, but make it always work if you're under a certain % health threshold
I love pierce. But I like having animations on and IIRC pierce can glitch your game if you have animations on. I think it’s if you hit a pierce on an enemy that cannot counter, don’t OHKO the enemy, and then would double, it can *sometimes* glitch your game and force a restart.
Yeah, it's a thing, and an annoying one. Specifically, the glitch happens if you hit an enemy again while their HP is still decreasing from the previous attack.
what's weird about that is that the bug doesn't exist in the original japanese release of fe8, it was something added when they localized it to western audiences
I believe silencer also gives an exp boost, so when it procs on an enemy that would already die, it is technically a plus, if I am right.
Dance is my favourite skill. 8 )
the thumbnail made me think we were talking about feh lmao
I have a feeling when they balance the proc skills in fe8, they are doing it with the mind of the enemies having access to them hence why they were so underwhelming in the player's hand. If only most of this proc by skill percentage instead, it will be better in most cases
Sacred stones skills can be so mega broken. The summoning skill alone had to be nerfed in different ways like fates sharing hp pools and engage making it a dlc ring that is random on what you get for a specific amount of time.
Meanwhile por and sov
I mean, the Lyn ring basically has it's own version of summons, sure they don't move but the enemies will pretty much always go for them so they can bail you out of many situations
I’d argue both of those are better while you have them.
In Sacred stones there are many times using a summon is actively bad since they would distract an enemy that your strong enemy phase juggernaut would kill anyway so using a phantom just hurts you rather it helping you. Also the phantoms themselves don’t do great damage so summoning them just to hit something isn’t great outside of the egg map if they need to get rid of one.
In fates Replicate has issues with how late you’ll get it (having it on Jakob/Felica can be funny, there’s better alternatives but don’t think it’s bad either) but even then having a unit with real stats or support functions is far better than having a meat shield for really bulky units who don’t really need one. I haven’t used the ones in engage much, but I’d argue them having actual stats also makes them better as well since they can hit something back at least when they get targeted.
With how weak units are in Sacred stones summons are far more likely to be liabilities on enemy phase who prevent your strong combat units from killing an enemy compared to the utility functions other summon like functions have in the later games.
Artur can reliably take out cyclops, which is difficult for a lot of your characters without sacred weapons. If you get Purge, Artur can help snipe shadow shot evil eyes, stone medusa, and the biggest threat dracozombies without getting into range. My Artur could reliably 2 shot the dracozombie boss in the second to last mission, which can allow you to just rescue drop or warp your lord in and skip most the map. Slayer was awesome.
Id love if you'd do a deep dive in supports in Sacred Seth. They arent needed to easily clear the game, but they definitely help
Lethality is purely for the style factor 😎
Speaking of, I hate how FE8 changed the color of lethality, the red effects in FE7 were way more appropriate and felt more overtly "lethal" imo
I thought that great shield used THE GENERAL's level for its activation rate, not the enemy's.
i played all the way through fe8 and didnt even know skills were in the game so theres that
I actually felt pain in my soul for the lost EXP when you suggested killing Gorgon eggs with a Phantom. I don't agree with most "lol exp thief" arguments there days, but come on, Gorgon Eggs are a FREE 50 EXP!
Ewan with accuracy supports and eclipse bodies formortiis
Hi Lizard!
Imagine if proc skills were based on the sum of your level and the enemy's level (and being promoted added 20 levels). It would make skills quite a bit more reliable.
Ah yes, Pierce, the best proc skill in FE8 but also the one most likely to cause you to reset, thanks to a glitch that can freeze the game if it procs on an enemy that can't counter and does too much damage (seems to be something about the second attack occurring before damage from the first attack has finished ticking down). Granted, it only happens if you have battle animations on (which it seems like most players don't) but it's still rather frustrating to deal with, especially for a casual player who doesn't know the conditions for its occurrence and likes having battle animations.
Personally the way I'd "fix" Pierce and Silencer is by making them guaranteed, but specifically on Player Phase. Pierce always activates when you initiate combat, Silencer always activates on a crit when it's Player Phase. Pierce may need to be nerfed to only ignore half DEF/RES in this case
Great Shield and Sureshot are just bad, there's not much you can do to fix them that wouldn't just involve making them a completely different skill.
Honestly I just really don't like proc skills. They add too much uncertainty to a game that really does not need more randomness imo
I feel like pierce is only considered to be better than silencer because it's on a better unit. The proc chance is generally lower and you deal bonus damage compared to a guaranteed kill.
I feel like most skills were actually mainly designed to be more relevant on enemies than your own units. When you're easily one-rounding Generals or comfortably dodge tanking Snipers, those skill procs are much more relevant, and they give a (albeit very small) "fighting chance" to the enemies.
Since we don't know the developers' intents, it's hard to say which way it was done, but I feel like a lot of FE games (and other games as well) have these skills/mechanics that are more relevant for enemies than for the player, and were seemingly designed with the enemies in mind first and given to players second "just because".
me watching a video full of information i already 100% knew: 😃👍
Slayer puts in a lot of work in creature campaign if you’re inclined to play that.
It has that top tier spam hordes of cyclopes that have even more inflated hp level design, and you have easier access to stronger light tomes and CON boosting. Killing dracozombies with purge doubling is the pinnacle of everything right and wrong with that mode.
I'm sitting here contemplating how to make these skills a bit better.
Maybe sure shot has a 20% of your accuracy to turn any hit into a crit. Snipers are usually super accurate anyway, and adding it to their crit would help their damage and probably give some of that feels good energy pierce and silencer have. at 75% hitrate it breaks even with the crit bonus skills, but it caps out at 20% I think being bow locked is worth a better version of what they have though.
Great shield should just be your shown level +20. They tend to take scratch damage anyway, and while it is still incredibly risky, it would be able to save you from a mage or effective weapon every now and then. That's a 20-40% chance to negate damage, and since you're probably getting doubled anyway, that's about a 35%-65% chance per combat. Might be a little too much, but at the same time, you're using a general.
Pierce is better than great shield, so I think have the proc rate works. 10+half your level means you start with 10% and go up to a max of 20%. Its effectively a different type of crit, so the number seems about right at first glance.
As for enemy%, I feel like the only class I can see making good use of that is a super trainee. They're already meant to be a meme, so an inconsistent benefit is fitting for them. My first thought is a boost to an in combat stat equal to enemy level (plus 20 for promoted) and a small bonus to one of their actual stats. Each trainee could have a different version too.
Journeyman would get that much hit and speed. Those are the two biggest problems a low con axe user has.
Pupil gets avoid and magic. Mages don't like getting hit, and the super pupil seems like it was meant to be a really offensive one.
and recruit gets it as crit and defense. Crit since they're kinda like a swordmaster, and defense to reference all the bulk the other classes would be giving her.
Why did I have the slightest hunch that you’d plug in a Skillshare or Brilliant sponsor or smth at 6:30 😭😭
I'd like to add a bit to this, because I feel like thief utility is a bit too broadly put here. In the context of FE8, we kind of have to look at this by looking at Colm as a unit. With him in mind, I don't think having to protect him isn't much of an issue because he is really fast and early FE8 has a bunch of axe units and brushes, so he has tons of avoid under most circumstances. The enemies themselves also aren't terribly accurate or hard hitting, so he's often safe to put in range of 3 enemies with the only downside being that he doesn't counter at 2 range. I also think the stat boosters aren't that incredibly valuable because in this game, you're not gonna rely on raw str values as much as in some of the other games. The energy drop isn't really much of a big deal when factoring in how Seth is going to do most of the fighting in the first half of the game and effective weapons and good prepromotes being plentiful in the second, for example. Still you want those, but I find it's not much of a big deal if you end up missing them, even if you plan on grinding out units later, because the tower exists. If you're somehow starved for units with good hp and str, despite how low the enemy quality in this game is, you can just grind out a unit in casual play. I think with these things in mind, it does relativate the thief utility and makes stealing relatively uncomplicated, which is a bit of a shame imo.
Kind of debatable if you wanna consider it a skill, but what about Canto? If we're counting stealing, then I feel it deserves being brought up in the conversation as it is probably one of the best and most flexible skills in the game.
Any suggestions for who should get Great Shield instead?
Does Disarm trap counts as a skill or a Hidden Skill only for Thieves, Rouges and Assassins?
I mean, the only traps you can disarm is the Lava Tiles in the Gorgon Egg Map so it is not that useful.
Sure Shot is really stupid, because even at max level it's a 20% chance... to hit the target. Like, if I somehow managed to get a max level sniper with a 50% chance to hit that would bring them all the way up to... 60%. 90%? Well, first the way the RNG works turns that into a 98.1%, then Sure Shot turns it into a 98.5%. It's really hard to find a situation where this isn't a rounding error. I guess maybe it has some value on enemy snipers, ensuring that even your dodgiest dodge tank can't totally evade them all the time?
Pierce on the other hand I have extremely fond memories of Cormag getting a crit-pierce on the final boss and inflicting something like 210 damage in a single blow and killing the demon king instantly.
Steal and Silencer were technically in FE7 too, though they were more presented as a unique skill of the Thief and Assassin rather than being something explicitly categorized as a Skill.
Still, they needed those, since they'd otherwise be mere Lockpick holders.
my first game with skills was actually path of radiance I never played FE8 until a friend from school let me borrow it and i think that was the first time I was underwhelmed with fire emblem and would certainly not be the last time
Disagree, colms combat contributions is about on par with Joshuas and he just has more utility less needed promotion item. And easy supports if you care for that. The only thing hurting his combat is his low skill, which doesnt matter to much unless you need a crit. But secret books which are pretty none competitive items are also there. And josh was likly to want those as wells since he isnt likly to get enough skill to reiliably crit ether. If anything i would say colms biggiest issue is his promotion is less of a big upgrade, as both arent great. You either like assassins chances, which is a good skill in like very nich ways but the exp gain is goated and keeps him competing even when he is off doing chest stuff. But he does lose steal, in erika route there isnt a lot of stealing needed after the first chapter though.
I don't understand why FE games have these wack % chance for skills. The first thing I'd change about Engage if I got to do a fan patch would be make all the proc skills something that always happens and lower how effective they are to make them less insane
Wait, Great Shield is *enemy* level%!? No wonder it never procs outside link arena, that is awful. xD Also, yeah, Sure Shot is kinda useless. It would have been much more sensical if it had more to it than simply "makes attack always hit when proc". Like, maybe they could have made it so that it also makes you do 50% more damage or make it give you a crit if your hit is already naturally 100%. Simply giving you an alternate hitcheck would have only made sense on low-hit units because of true hit...but there are not a lot of low or no-hit scenarios in this game.(Imagine how brr the skill would have gone on FE6 dark mages with eclipse. They would have actually been useful)
I thought the payoff for pierce was your game freezing up and needing to reset?
Channels nowadays are just so monotone but not yours!
Does anyone know a good place to go to debate these things? I wouldn’t mind doing videos like this debating two units, but I’d like a bit of experience first so maybe a forum debate? I know those are old school so idk if any are still active.
I'd imagine the folks at Serenes Forest are still keeping that place up.
Technically, I say FE7 had skills, but only one unit (Assassins) possessed lethality/silencer. Their crit hit would either trigger first though or doubling an enemy would prevent it from happening. Essentially though they killed someone in one blow saving weapon uses by finishing off an enemy in a single strike.
Love SS for the reason of not being skill-bogged. I like skills for being able to differentiate units but similar to every FE game from awakening and on, the ability to reclass means every unit can get basically every skill and the same class which is great for early runs but quickly gets boring. Individual skills also aren’t great because it’s the difference between making a unit bad and good or terrible to OP. Having set classes per unit with minimal skills in game allows each unit to continue to be “individual” without needing specialized skills. I think the worst it got is during any game that allows certain units to take actions no others can, ie, royal units being able to affect maps which makes them instantly more useful than non royal units. Love SS for this reason.
I, for one, prefer it the way fe8 did it. More subtle, nice when it procs but you never rely on it. You weren't trying to pick up skills as they were locked to your units' classes, a predetermined thing somewhat.
From Awakening onwards, it became all about picking up as many of the broken skills as you can get, kinda like a checklist (and don't get me started on the eugenics in some of those games). The more time you spend outside of maps (or supports if that's your thing), the less exciting the gameplay becomes imo.
3H and Engage being the worst offenders set a very worrying trend for future games (units are stat blobs with a gender and a usually fairly low-impact personal skill), and I just wish units would become class-locked again with way less class switching options as it would finally give characters with poor stats but good class access a spot in the game again.
Mhm. Mhm. I see. Interesting. Yeah, skills are cool and all. All those strategies and potential things to think about, that's real neato.
But consider: Throwing Seth at all of life's problems.
I hate people calling the thief weak. LEVEL COLM AND MAKE HIM A ROGUE he will literally solo the game with ease.
tbh compared to the skill hell of more modern FE games it feels more manageable to have just a few important skills.